Christian Engagement with the Culture - Theology Throw Down of Christian Podcast Community

The Nature of Theology and the Need for Truth

With every Christian, there is a theology. For every theology, there is a defense of truth. Is there or is there not a single shred of factual historical information to substantiate what you're asserting that this is an addition to the text?

Personally, I don't know of manuscripts, but I read scholars who are specialists in that field, and they have looked at those manuscripts or seen the lack of them there. Could you give me your name? I'm not seeing people right now.

So are all the popes actually believers? Are all the popes? I don't know. Some could, some couldn't be. I don't know. So it's possible for the vicar of Christ to be an unbeliever? Possible, yeah. That's an interesting view.

This creature from the dirt defied the everlasting holy God. After that, God had said, the day that you shall eat of it, you shall surely die. And instead of dying thanatos, that day, he lived another day and was clothed in his nakedness by pure grace and had the consequences of a curse applied for quite some time.

But the worst curse would come upon the one who seduced him, whose head would be crushed by the seed of the woman. And the punishment was too severe. What's wrong with you people? I'm serious. I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian church today.

We don't know who God is.

He doesn't have faith. He has confidence. Confidence. Confide. From the Latin, with faith.

Christian Podcast Community and the Theology Throwdown Introduction

Christian broadcast community of broadcasters, together to discuss our theological differences with love and charity. This is a ministry called Striving for Eternity.

Well, welcome to another edition of Theology Throwdown. This is where all of the podcasters of the Christian podcast community get together. We discuss our theological differences, if we have any, and we do it in charity and in love.

I had to play. I asked John Wilkinson. He does some of our sound work, our audio. Sometimes he's like, give me a, throw me together a quick intro. A quick intro for him was almost three minutes long.

Never mentions the podcast. But it was great.

So I had to play it. Everyone else was going, wow, this is really long. I thought you said an intro. But we give a shout out to Mikel, who did our actual intro for this is the first time we got to play it.

And or at least for everyone who's here. And he gave us an outro that we'll play later. So with that, we always want to start off by introducing everyone who is here so that they can share their podcast a little bit about themselves and their podcast.

Same thing before we get started with our topic. Our topic tonight will be Christians response to culture. And I think it will be good. We have some people like Presbyterians here who were going to be a little bit having a different view than sub Baptist.

So it should be good. But I am. I am hopeful that Colleen, I know you're here. You're from theology gals. But I hope you appreciate that. That John threw in a Presbyterian like R .C. Sproul in that in that that intro there.

You know, he had to get that one in there. But that's a great clip from from R .C. So why don't we start off? I'll just go through the order in which I see them in my participants thing. So we'll start with Colleen, Eve, Keith, and then Jamal.

And then I'll wrap up just your name and your podcast. Anything you want to share before we get started?

I'm Colleen Sharp and I host theology gals podcast. And we're podcast by women, as you can probably hear from our name. And we discussed reformed theology and the Christian life and various topics which fit in to those categories.

And I'm Eve Franklin, co-host of Are You Just Watching? In which we apply our biblical worldview to secular entertainment, usually movies, once a month.

And this is Keith Heltsley, host and co-host of Quest for Truth, where we talk about the gospel. We talk about worldviews and challenges to the Bible. We try to bring a kind of a practical, realistic look to what that means.

And my name is Jamal Bandy. I'm a host of Prescribed Truth podcast. And what I seek to do basically is just give a basic yet reformed view. Refuting different ideas that are in a culture that are wrong and from false teaching in certain churches.

And Jamal wins the award for the best, you know, branding.

I was thinking the same thing. For those who can't see, he's got the Prescribed Truth beanie. He's got, I don't know, probably a green screen or something behind him. So you see the Prescribed Truth logo.

And so, yeah, we can learn something from him.

I'm trying. I'm learning myself. I'm trying.

I have my Prescribed Truth coffee mug next to me. So I'm just going to say that.

Oh, yeah. I'm going to represent Sip to the Truth, Coleen.

All right. My name is Andrew Rappaport. I'm the host of several podcasts. Andrew Rappaport's Rappaport, which is an hour, usually an hour, becoming an hour and a half lately. But an hour or longer show.

It's weekly. I have a Rappaport daily, which is two minutes Monday through Friday. I also do on Thursdays. We have a Apologetics Live. That's a live show. So Thursday nights, go to ApologeticsLive .com.

You can join in, ask any questions, even if you want to challenge us. We get a lot of people, Catholics and atheists and Mormons, that come in and challenge us. And we try to answer any questions we get.

Coleen and I are also the co-hosts of So You Want to Be a Podcaster for those who may be interested in podcasting. There's way more podcasts than are mentioned that are represented here. We have now, Coleen and I are checking, as of last night, from when we're recording this, we have now 21, was it, I think I said, Coleen?

21 podcasts in the Christian podcast community as of right now. And so one of our newest is Keith with Quest for Truth. So welcome, and this is your first time with us here in this podcast and forum. So as I mentioned, the topic, this is, there isn't, when we do these podcasts, maybe we'll get in the future, do more show notes and things.

But this right now, the way we do it is more of a lively discussion. Let everyone get to discuss what they think on the topics that we have. We don't have a set place where it goes. We just have the topic.

And so the topic is the Christian response to culture. There's a lot of different ways I think we could go. But I actually, since Coleen is here, one of the, and I'm going to regret saying this, I really think I am.

One of the advantages to being Presbyterian, that just sounds wrong. And for folks who don't know, Coleen and I do shows together, and I always bust on her being a Presbyterian. She busts on me being a Baptist.

We'll both agree when we get to heaven. But until then, we have fun with each other. When we're all reformed. Yes, we'll be reformed in a different way, though. That's called glorification. But being reformed, Coleen, you do have the advantage that you have confessional statements that do work toward helping folks in dealing with different topics.

So I want to kick it off to you first, because I know when we were talking, you were talking about the two-kingdom view. And I think that could actually play in well to start us off on how the Christian should be responding to culture.

Because there's a lot of different ways we can look at culture. We can look, you know, I know that, Eve, your program deals with movies. There's a lot of things we can get in there with that. And so music, you know, one of the things Coleen and I were talking about today is, you know, we could talk about the question of, you know, should Christians be listening to secular music or watching secular movies?

So we'll probably get there. But Coleen, why don't you start us off with just the Presbyterian or Reformed view with some of the confessions that we have on the two-kingdom view.

Two-Kingdom Theology, the Regulative Principle, and Christian Vocation

So that's actually not necessarily a confessional view. I'm not going to get into that. Within the Reformed and Presbyterian umbrella, there are actually two views. And you can, if you're sitting in a Reformed or Presbyterian church, you can have one member of the church on one side of you that holds one and another member on the other side that holds another.

And so there's, on a basic sense, there's a one-kingdom view and there's a two-kingdom view. And quickly, I'll just say on the one-kingdom view, there are some different things which will fit into the one-kingdom view.

You may hear of something called neo-Calvinism and a man named Abraham Kuyper. And then you also, and so he talked a lot about the cultural mandate and all of life is worship. And I'm mentioning this first because it is distinct from the two-kingdom view.

And even people like Theonymous hold a one-kingdom view. So they would hold a view that you need to go into culture and make it Christian. So that is one perspective. I hold what is the two-kingdom view.

And everything is under the control of the Lord, obviously, but we see a distinction between the sacred and the secular. So the sacred would be everything that happens within the church and the secular is that which happens outside of the church.

So for me, when I think of something like music, and I'll just use that as an example since you brought it up, Andrew. When I think of something like music, I'm going to be extremely picky under that umbrella of the church on what music should be sung.

Because I hold to something called the regulative principle of worship, that we should only worship in the ways that God has commanded. But then outside in the secular realm, that is still controlled by the Lord, and I'm still to honor the Lord.

And it's also sometimes called the kingdom of the left. So that doesn't mean I go and listen to music that is blasphemous or uses coarse language or those sorts of things. But there is what we would call Christian liberty, as long as it's not opposed to God's law.

So that's just some very basics. You can also tune in to Theology Gals, where we talk about these things. We have a whole episode on the two kingdoms and a whole episode on Christ and culture. So a little shameless plug.

Yeah, you don't have the beanie like Jamal to wear.

And I'm sure Andrew will link our episodes in the episode notes. Now I got to remember it. I'll send them to you. But anyway, that's really, really basic.

And I haven't done an extensive amount of research and thinking through the two-kingdom view, but I personally, and I don't know how the rest of you guys see where you guys land, I would tend to be a one-kingdom person, I guess.

I think I see everything as under God. And I'm not sure how much I see the secular.

Well, but we see everything as under God, too. So just to make that distinction. But we would not go into the world to make the world Christian. We go into the world to preach the gospel. But we're not going to be out there making sure our politicians are necessarily Christian and things like that.

So, yeah. But I absolutely believe you would be more one-kingdom.

Oh, actually, no. The way you explain it that way, I may be more two-kingdom. Because, yeah, I mean, look. Huh?

I said that's interesting. To hear that broken down in that way. Actually, I'm not familiar with the difference between the one-kingdom view and the two-kingdom view. But as Colleen, I keep saying Colleen, sorry.

As Colleen puts it, I think I would see myself as being more two-kingdom. I have to look more into that.

Yeah, I may. You know, I remember when I was, oh, I forget who it was. It was Mitt Romney that was running for president at the time. And I was in studio with Greg Kokel on Stand to Reason. And we were driving into the studio.

And we were discussing, because back then it was coming up, can you have a Mormon? Can you vote for a Mormon for president? And he asked me about it as we were driving in. And my view was I'm voting for president, not pastor.

And so I'm not holding them to Christian values as the only possible values for president. For someone who's going to be governing in a secular realm, pretty much. So I may be more two-kingdom, Colleen, than I think.

Uh-oh.

Am I agreeing with Colleen? That's bad. Yeah, but you're going to also find it's not specific. I would say both of these views, that if you were to push almost any Christian, they're going to come, they're going to fall into one of these in a basic sense.

I mean, the two-kingdom view really kind of started with Augustine and the two cities of God. And, you know, the reformers are very influenced by Augustine. But even I, like if you look at certain things that have influenced our country, like the Christian coalition and stuff like that, they really have more of a one-kingdom perspective, if that helps, too.

So let me ask this, and I know I want to see what everyone else's view is, but for clarification. So you'd see the one-kingdom view is more of when people are going out to try to make the world more Christian?

In other words, is it more of a premillennial type of view?

Okay, first of all, someone doesn't listen closely to our podcast. I'm just kidding. Those episodes are how long ago? Andrew listens to our podcast every week. So I don't want to get deep into this because it can get pretty technical.

I mean, if you think of things, sometimes people will accuse one-kingdom people of, you know, do we still fight against abortion? They'll say things like, and I'm sorry for my dog making noise in the background, do we still fight against abortion and against homosexual marriage?

Of course we do because this is still God's world. But going in and saying, okay, I'm going to make the society Christian. So think of that in terms of like a theonomist model. So most one-kingdom would want to make the society Christian in some way, not to the extent that theonomists would, but you would probably understand that example, Andrew, since you know something about theonomy.

Yeah, I would. And I'm going to let everyone else jump in. Yeah, I'll stop talking. So Keith, Jamal, Eve, what are your thoughts so far?

I think I'm with Jamal. I would need to find out more about what you mean by two kingdoms. But it sounds like what you're saying is the world is what the world is. And I mean, we should desire to win everybody to Christianity, but for practical purposes, it's not going to happen.

Well, we should be trying to go into all the world and preach the gospel. So there's probably no distinction on how we would do that. But the world is falling. The world is not going to be godly. So we're not

I mean, if you think of like a postmillennial or theonomist, they want the world to be like a Christian nation and things like that.

I forgot one important aspect. As idealistic as that might be, I don't want to see it happening.

Right, right. Kind of like Andrew was even talking about like a premillennial view. One thing I forgot to say within the two kingdoms is there's a large emphasis on what we'd call the doctrine of vocation.

And so if you think of during the Reformation where there was the priests and then there was everybody else, and there's even stories of Luther where, you know, someone came and said, but I'm a shoemaker.

What can I do for the Lord? And it was almost like only the priest worked for the Lord. And, you know, Luther said, go and be the best shoemaker that you can. This is not verbatim, obviously. And do it to the glory of God.

And so if I'm a mom changing diapers, I should do the best that I can in glory to the Lord. And all of us, whether we're podcasting or moms or dads or husbands, wives, employees, friends, sister, brother, daughter, son, whatever we are, that's what the Lord has called us to, and we should do it to his glory.

And I've heard that concept years ago when I was young, up and coming, 20-something, people were recommending that maybe I should be going into ministry or something. I've just never felt called to do that.

And some people were saying, well, you're not working for God unless you're becoming a preacher or a leader. Well, no, because, you know, my career path was the military, and I was in contact with a lot of people who weren't Christian.

But I felt like I was there to support them as best I could as a Christian. It's not like every day was a prayer meeting, no. But there were times when people knew they could come to me if they needed some input of a Christian nature.

Yeah, you were an example of Christ where the Lord had you.

Right, and in places where, yeah, the military has chaplains. The chaplains don't sit in the foxhole with you. They're not in the barracks with you. I don't know where they go, but they're not where the people are most of the time.

Well, I would say that I would have to agree with Colleen, the Two Kingdom view for the way she's explained it. But I think my position on this has always been that we should be Christians wherever we are, and we should be striving to present, not preach to the choir, I guess, which is kind of funny because that's what my podcast does, is it preaches to the choir.

But if I'm going to be a writer, I'm not going to be a Christian writer. I'm going to be a writer who is a Christian, and I am going to write stuff that I hope that people outside of the Christian community would read.

If I were a podcaster, I would want to podcast to everyone, and hopefully people outside the Christian community would hear what I have to say. I think as Christians, a lot of times we segregate ourselves away from the world, and we only say things or do things that we want other Christians to hear and see, but we don't necessarily reach out to the rest of the world.

And then that way we relinquish the culture to the world, and they're never going to hear truth if we don't present it in a venue where they can hear it.

I know Jamal is dying to say something.

I was waiting. No, but it was good. I agree with that too, Eve, as well. And as I'm hearing this conversation, it's making me think. I know a couple times pre-millennialism has brought up. I just got tongue-tied there, seriously.

Just worded this way. Jamal, just worded as biblical end times view.

That's the definition for millennialism that you just gave, by the way.

All right. But that's what I'm getting at. It seems to me that depending on your view, it may seem like you believe the world is going to get better, or you feel like it's always going to be the world, depending on where you would stand, ultimately.

If someone who would believe that the world is going to get better eventually, then I would see them being, I guess, in more of the one kingdom area. They eventually believe that everything will eventually turn Christian.

Whereas, in my perspective, how I see the scriptures is that, because we do know there's going to be many who are going to go to hell, and there's going to be the elect, the few that God has chosen is going to come to him.

And so I don't see the world becoming Christian, or doing everything the way God would want them to do, because the Bible tells us that we're all rebellious, apart from Christ. So I guess that connection just makes me feel like it would be more of a two kingdom view.

I guess I want to learn more about it, just to understand more of the terminology and the criticisms. I know Colleen didn't want to go too deep in it tonight, and I understand why. But it's definitely something worth looking into.

Radical Christianity, Ordinary Vocation, and the Danger of Spiritual Elitism

Yeah, I think that one of the problems we have today in Christian culture, so not the culture around us, but really, Son, Colleen, you mentioned the idea of, if only a priest can serve God. I actually saw this, if you guys remember, some of the Francis Chan books on crazy love.

Then there was, I forget who wrote the book, Reckless. There was this big thing where, if you were not doing something really radical for Christ, then you really weren't serving him. You really weren't acting like a Christian should.

They put out this idea that we had to really be giving everything up in life for living for Christ. And I think, and Colleen will correct me if I'm wrong on this, because she'll know for sure, I think it was Michael Horton who wrote a book, and it was on normal Christianity.

Yeah, I was actually just thinking of that when you were talking, Michael. So David Platt wrote a book called Radical. I haven't read David Platt's book, but I'm under the impression that it's kind of endorsing what you were talking about a little bit more, that I'm going to go out and be radical for Jesus.

And I don't know if he endorses some sort of asceticism, or exactly what sorts of things he does. But Michael Horton, and he says he wasn't intending initially for this to be in response to Platt's book, but his book is called Ordinary.

And that's who we are. I see this a lot with women in my podcast, where a woman comes and says, wow, I just feel like I'm home with my three little kids all day, and I don't feel like I'm doing anything for Christ.

Yes, you are working for Christ in caring for your children. I thought of one other example in the Two Kingdom. This might be helpful. When we had our episode, I talked about when I was in Southern California as a teenager, and we had the Christian Yellow Pages.

Okay, so in the Christian Yellow Pages, you can find a Christian plumber.

Wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop. You have to first explain what Yellow Pages are first.

I think everyone but Jamal here should know, but before the internet, we had a phone book where you looked up. I need a mechanic. I'm going to look up in the Yellow Pages under mechanic. So we had Christian Yellow Pages.

You can find Christian everything. You can go to the Christian dry cleaner. Kind of makes me think a little bit about what Eve was talking about, how we segregate ourselves a little bit. So I'm going to go to the Christian dry cleaner.

I'm going to call the Christian mechanic, and the Christian carpenter, and everything. I mean, it wasn't like as big as the regular Yellow Pages, but it was sizable for being all Christian. And so one example we would give in our view is that I need a plumber.

I'm going to call the best plumber, whether he's Muslim, or whether he's Mormon, or whether he's Christian, or whether he's an atheist. I'm going to call the best plumber, because I need the best plumber to come and fix the sink.

And that would be an example, too.

Now, what's interesting with that that I was thinking was the Muslims' way of thinking. We want to talk theology, but the Muslims, Islam has a theology when it comes to hiring in these realms, and they would say you do hire a fellow Muslim because they're Muslim.

Now, the difference, and this is a radical idea for Christians, the Muslim mindset is you hire a Muslim and you pay him more because you're taking care of one of your own. Christians are not like that.

Christians hire Christians and expect to be given a break, or they expect to do shoddy work and not worry about it because you're a brother of Christ, right? Very different. But yeah, so in a Muslim sense, in their theology, you should hire Muslims because you're helping to take care of someone that believes like you.

Now, I don't know how that might play into the thinking.

Well, if I love my neighbor as myself and my neighbor specific, let's just think in terms of the church. If I've got a really good carpenter at my church, if he's a good carpenter, I, of course, he's going to be first on my list.

But I have seen situations, and I'm guessing, Andrew, you have too, where someone hires someone at church. You've got a plumber at church, and you just know he's a plumber. You don't know if he's good or not, but you know he's a Christian.

You know he goes to your church. Someone hires him. He comes and does not great work, and it ends up not ending very well. I'm sure you've seen these situations. They expect a deal, like you said. Yeah.

So, I mean, what do you guys think? I mean, have you guys run into this idea of radical Christianity versus ordinary living?

Yeah, I've actually struggled with that, and a lot of that dealing with my background as well. You know, coming out of the cult and everything, it's like if you're not operating in some arena of platform, then you're not fulfilling God's work.

You know, and it took a while. It was more of a relief to me to realize that, man, just being a, just as my homie would say, killing it, like killing it at home as a father and as a husband is enough.

You know, like if I never had prescribed truth, I don't have to feel like I've lived my life unfulfilled as far as serving the Lord, you know, which was a relief. Like I said earlier, it was a relief, because I believe that I had to be in some kind of position.

I had a gentleman approach me lately who knew me back when I was teaching falsely, and he asked me, was I going to preach again, or were you going to rethink about pastoring one day? And I'm like, no.

I was like, don't have the desire for that now. You know, I like, I like speaking, you know, like, you know, I'd have the ministry. I don't prescribe truth, but he was like, well, you know, God has called us to do his work.

And I'm like, yeah, he did. Like I'm doing his work, you know? And that was just, that was just like, like, I'm not doing enough, you know? And that made me step back for a little bit. And it's like, man, it is.

And I didn't know that I didn't know this was a two kingdom view, one kingdom view type deal or, or anything like that. As far as how people are viewing things, it just, it is, you know, I just think it's how people view what you should do in your life for God, you know?

So it's a relief to know that, man, like my life, it may seem ordinary, but man, it's spectacular. Like living as a, trying to try to serve my wife and serving my children to the glory of God is anti this world.

You know, that's not what his world is. That's, you know, that is not ordinary to the world. You know, it's ordinary for me to be passive. It's ordinary to, to me, to be passive with my children, be passive with my spouse and everything else it's, it's ordinary for me to not lead, you know?

And so it's, it's, it's interesting how that perspective is.

You know, it's interesting with your background, you mentioned your, you know, the, you were involved in a cult and I was dealing with a cult. It's called the church at Wells. And there was people would go down there and that was a big thing.

They'd say, you just, you gotta come. And soon as people went down there, they got pulled into it. And it really was somewhat of a fascination to me to try to figure out what was going on, what was happening there.

And what I think it was, was there, they built this little commune where everybody could live that radical life. And they, they all work together. They live together. She had a lot of love bombing going on, but they, they had a company that the, I guess the, the guys that the, that were the started the church owned and everybody worked for the company.

Granted they worked for free. But they ended up just all feeling like they were, when they'd get down there, they felt like they really were living the Christian life that they were meant to live. And it dawned on me that it's sort of this way we deal with the Christian culture that we're talking about now is just, that's what drew people into it was they thought somehow living just an ordinary life, just going to, you know, like he says, being in the military and serving the country, somehow that's not really serving Christ.

You have to, you have to give all that up and just be, be working for the church and sharing the gospel and that's it. And I, I, I tend to think that, no, you can, you could be my background, my trade, you know, Mike is engineering.

I'm, I'm a software engineer by trade, so that's my background. I can do that to the best of my ability and that glorifies God, I believe. And maybe that's more of the two kingdom view that Colleen's talking about.

I'd hate to be agreeing with her, but.

Well, I was wondering too, is like, um, now just, so the scripture that talks about how we should do good to all men, but especially those in the household of faith, paraphrasing, if you allow me, like, is that the argument that is given behind why we should be seeking for only Christians who do such and such or our fellow church members, um, who perform certain trades or work that we're looking for versus going out to the world?

Um, is that, is that the argument that it would come from was one of the arguments that we use?

I don't know if you're asking me, I'm, I'm not sure, but, but I would, I would definitely assume that, um, that something like that. And that verse is definitely true. I mean, if, um, if you look at, you know, we're called to love our neighbors ourself, which, you know, for us includes my Mormon next door neighbor and my atheist son and, um, any person around me, but we see in scripture that we're called to a very specific type of love for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Um, I guess maybe there would be a disagreement on how that plays out maybe.

Yeah. I was just, I was just something that just came to mind. I was thinking about it. It's like, um, sometimes when I, when I hear different views, I try to see where the, the other side would object or trying to think about, um, where the opposition may come from.

And that's what, that's the first thing about somebody could use to say is, Oh, Hey, you know, especially to the, those in the household of faith. So like you said, like, how would that play out? You know, um, is that the example where Andrew was talking about, where the Christian brother is doing work for free where he's not expecting to get paid as much or where they get paid more, you know, cause you're doing especially well to them.

So you're doing more than what they would normally charge is being more general. And even if they don't do the best job, you know, not looking for the best work, but the fact that they are of the household of faith, you know, which I don't, I don't agree with that.

You know, I think he's wanted the job to be done. You should look for it to be good. Um, and I'll give you an example of a guy reached out to me. He was a pastor and I used to do, um, not really deep graphic design work, but I will do like, I can make a banner and I can make, you know, flyers and stuff like that.

And I'm pretty okay with Photoshop. And so he hit me up and wanted me to design a banner form, you know? And, uh, and I guess because he was a Christian and because he's a pastor, I wasn't going to charge him as much, what it may be if I charge him what I would charge anybody else.

And he paid, um, but he wanted me to hang it up. And so, uh, you know, I charged him for that. But the thing is, he wanted me to make him do a miracle, which I don't have the expertise. I wouldn't come to hanging stuff.

I, you know, give me a nail and some wood. I probably can make it work, but I'm not like the type to measure everything to make sure it's completely center. That's not me. You know? And I, and I explained that to him.

I said, Hey, you know, I can hang it for you. Just tell me what you want it. And I would try to put it there, you know, and I would charge you based on that. And so he had these brick walls and he wanted me to, to drill a hole in his walls.

And I told him, I refuse to do it. And because I was like, I can't, I'm not going to drill a hole in your wall because I could mess it up. And I, you know, and that's a hole in a brick wall, you know, and this can be seen and I don't want to mess your wall up.

And so he was like, okay, well, um, use whatever you can. So I found some adhesive. I knew it would not work guys. I knew we're going to work. I was like, okay, I use some adhesive. He wanted to hang it outside where it was windy.

It was blowing. It was raining and I was okay. So I took some adhesive, some grill tape, and I hung that banner up the best way I could. And when it fell down, he was upset. He called me up. He's like, that banner fell.

I said, well, I told you it would fall. I told you it would fall. I, you know, he's like, well, I mean, what I'm going to do? I said, well, see if you've got a brother in the church who may know how to hang it up.

I said, I can't do that work. So that's an example of, hey, you wanted somebody to do it right. You should have looked somebody who could do it and be willing to pay. But I admitted to him, I don't do that kind of work.

Well, what, maybe one, one thing that we can do, you said, like you do graphic design, maybe you hear that someone in your congregation that doesn't have a lot of money really needs some graphic design and, and you go to them and say, Hey, you know, I, I have some free time this Saturday.