Provoked: Discussing Life With the Opposition

Well, so I'm Zach and you have tuned in to our third episode even though our first episode isn't out yet Yeah, you turn to our third episode of provoked and it's a show where we are a bunch of regular people

And we're trying to provoke the church. It's a scriptural Word and it comes out of Acts chapter 17 but we're trying to provoke or incite the church and equip the church to preach the gospel rescue babies and destroy cultural idols and we think that that's a pretty

Important list of stuff to do right church, right? We we want to help you and if you feel as though this show is helpful to you and it glorifies

God It's biblically balanced We're asking if you would support us so we can keep it going I think there's gonna be a link that you can click on to You'll be able to click on that and it'll it'll guide you to a place where you can support us but of course prayer is what we need the most and We're just happy you're tuning in and sit next to me is my beautiful fiery

Sister How are you very kind I'm good I've been well just dealing with this corona virus madness

I don't even know what to call it. It's got like 50 different names. Yeah in my house. We've got the

Roni's I don't mean to make a joke about it. But I mean sometimes you just gotta laugh.

Yeah, but um, it's Chinese flu which China They're like, why how dare you and he's like because it's from China.

Yes The kung -fu the Chinese flu Kovac. I don't even think anybody's calling it

Corona anymore. It's like the Kovac Yeah, I heard pastor Jeff call it the Corona the crow.

We call the Coronas. Yeah the plural. Mm -hmm, but you're doing good How's Knox? He's doing great

I got to see him this morning and he was moving all around and just Growing healthy and it's just amazing how much is going on and in the womb and you can't even feel him yet You know, what a trip.

Yeah, why'd you name him Knox? Yeah, well after one of the greatest reformers

John Knox and his middle name is after one of my favorite people in the world and His last name well, you know

Yeah, we just got back from Scotland so we can talk about John Knox and I think we need to end up coming up It's maybe our next episode.

We'll just take a segment Because that was life -changing just going there and not only the scenery in the country and the people who are just amazing.

Yes In Edinburgh, we went to the Coven enters tour and that was something

I hope everyone that I love can go to and especially Men that feel they're called to the pastor are called to full -time ministry they need to understand what our forefathers and the faith went through right and what their lives really entailed as far as the

Oppression that came into them and their resilience, it'd be really good to go to right now actually For the church as we're dealing with just a little bit of adversity

I'm talking about people that were that were being killed if they had a Bible in their pocket Or if they went out because they outlawed

Preaching in the churches that they went out to a countryside and heard their pastor preach didn't get killed or tortured to death and then killed

Yeah, so it just it's amazing how it gives you perspective and as you go about your Christian life You can get so used to your culture, especially the

American culture and your culture can really alter your perspective So it's good to go there and learn what they went through and for me.

It was just a huge faith boost Like it just just the testimony of what they endured and how they endured it man

It was I just feel so rejuvenated, you know, that's awesome. I'm sure it gives you like a real perspective on actual persecution

You know, I'm an actual person. Yeah In America, we're like that person was mean to me and you know, mm -hmm that old granny gave me the finger

Remember that at the mill look what was that last week an old granny like actually gave us the finger.

Yeah And it's my favorite thing. I don't know why cuz it's so funny I mean you're sitting there for hours your back hurts

You don't want to be there but we had just you and I had just got there like Maybe five minutes talking and there comes an old granny with the middle finger.

Like it was just a great way to start Yeah, it was just like a huge And she had like elderly white hair like a tiny petite yeah, that's just I think even though it's you know

It's it's you know, the Bible says that those things are blessings towards us. Yeah, and it's sad. Of course, it's sad

But it's funny too for me. I just I just can't stop laughing. Yeah, so okay So what are we gonna do today in just about 50 minutes or so?

We're going to have a pro -choice or Colin and his name is Bill Rooney and we're super stoked because we've actually been trying to get people on the show just to talk and Have more of like a conversational

Debate with them, you know part of this the show is in line with the scriptures and how they tell us to tear down Every lofty thought raised against Christ.

So that's a part of that being obedient to that mandate and also just loving loving Bill I mean, that's what we want to do.

We want to love him. We want to deal with this argumentation We want to speak to him as our neighbor, but ultimately what do we want to do?

We want to lead him to Christ if he's not in Christ now, I think he's a professing Christian That's something that we're gonna let him confirm but I went on his

Facebook about information and he says that his favorite books to the Bible and different Christian books like How to grow in Christ I think or a case for Christ.

There's actually a book on evangelism. That's one of his favorite books It's gonna be interesting For him to kind of explain how he can marry or harmonize his pro -choice view with his

Christian faith So we'll be getting into that in just a few minutes. So Before we do I thought we would

Maybe just talk about this kovat thing just because it's the hottest topic Yeah, and can you have you ever we've never gone through this in our lives, but it's amazing

You pop up in the news whatever news outlet you look at and it's all about kovat Yeah, every single thing is about Understandably, it's a pretty crazy thing.

What are your thoughts about it? Oh, just it's unprecedent, you know It's like we've never seen anything like this in our entire lives and it's just hard to try to balance what you're hearing from the media

What you're hearing? Overseas and then, you know staying rooted in the Word of God and not letting the media and everything else

Bombard you and and and take you, you know away from what God says to be true to let it completely overwhelm your life and I think just Just staying rooted in scripture is just so I mean, it's always needed and foundational and crucial but times like these

I just feel like this is what you know It's talked about when the waves come crashing.

We need the Word of God as our rock, you know Yeah, exactly. And so and you know people that are dealing with I'm explaining this to your kids

I mean just in my house alone My son is very it's very much a planner.

He likes to know what's next And so having to tell him like I don't know when this is gonna end, you know,

I told him he said well why today? He said why why would God allow this to happen? And I said well

Buddy, you know, he's sanctifying us all through it. That's one thing and then he's like what sanctification and so it does

Yeah, and it you know opens opens up conversation for suffering and God's judgment and anger and What's going on in our country right now?

And why reasons why God might be angry, you know? Yeah, absolutely I think you know just to be helpful and I don't even know when this will come out and when when that what the

Situal situation will be like but I think these biblical principles apply to any type of adverse situation that Christians have to go through but I think

Something that we can do is we can get caught up in false information And or millions of what -if scenarios.

Yeah, and that's where like you're saying we can kind of uproot ourselves from a foundation I kind of move off the foundation of certainty that we need to focus on I think it's been a big test for all of us to say am

I gonna Really trust God with who he says he is and what he says he'll do and the promises that he's made

You know thousands of years ago or I'm gonna allow circumstances to really alter my worship of God and what we could do you think about it we can allow circumstances that are trying and Detrimental and hard for us to get through we can actually they can actually create idols

Yeah because what we'll do is we'll We'll worry of we'll go to worry and we'll go to fear and then we alter our own or the biblical

Description of who God is right now. God is somebody that's not in control That's God somebody that's that maybe will leave us and allow and give us over to a certain situation

As a means of chastise or something like that, right, you know, so we don't want to get into idol worship as you know

Particular time in history or particular time in our lives creates Hard times, right?

Isn't it funny the things that we turn into idols to the things that we cling on to safety and assurance

So we're just like man if I can get that toilet paper Okay, right exactly toilet paper, man, that's become the biggest

It's still happening, too Yeah I mean we would have ran out if you guys didn't bring us home because like we we were like Yeah, people are crazy.

We're not gonna go, you know, get a bunch of toilet paper. We're fine I was getting alone right? Oh, we're almost out and now it's still like if you look on Amazon You can't go and we went to Walmart.

Yeah fries and different Walgreens. It's gone It just shows you though like how faulty we are like we will take anything and be like that is the thing

That's gonna bring me security if I just have enough toilet paper My family's gonna be okay

Right. That's it. If I just would have that or add enough hand sanitizer Yeah, and that doesn't mean we shouldn't prepare right?

I mean as a dad when I when this thing first started to get a little hot, you know and More in the front of our face as far as media

We've got food and we got we do have toilet paper But I think what we the big test is as Christians are we gonna put ourself before a neighbor, right?

What you do see out there is like stockpiling. It's like, you know, there's this dude that had his whole closet full of Toilet paper that could last years, you know if he's just by himself, so yeah, it's got to be careful in our preparation

We don't put others or we don't put self before others A lot of selfishness, right?

It's like, you know, Black Friday fighting That's a big test I think what we got to do a couple help of things is we got to make decisions in our lives that are proportionate to Our context where we're at.

Mm -hmm and solid facts and it's congruent or harmonious with biblical principle

So that's the big test, you know, that's the scriptures say don't live by sight I don't live by your experience in what is going around.

Of course, you take that into consideration but let's make proportionate decisions proportionate to right what's going on not

Proportionate to what's going on in Italy or China or even different parts of the country. It's it's our context

So, right, you know that I talked to Jamie our big sister and she's out in LA and she said that she went to Costco and She got there right when it opened and they had just gotten a shipment of toilet paper and She's like got up to the checks and she's like hey, you know, what's the deal?

Why did they well, you know, you guys said you got a shipment and it's already gone and the cashier said

Because the same people line up 45 minutes before every single day getting toilet paper.

It's not new people It's the same people. And so that means there's people with stockpiles of toilet paper

I mean, it's just that mindset of like I'm gonna be okay if I get this thing, you know, it's

Idolatry. Yeah, it's selfish. Yeah, but what a what an opportunity for us to like You know show the grace of God and give people the gospel and give them our goods and say hey

You know check in with our neighbors and ask them if they need anything or you know because what our culture wants to say is like everybody out for themselves and get all you can get and shut your doors and don't talk to Anybody and you know, but that's not what we're called to do as Christians.

No, that's the big test again Yeah, are we gonna be self -focused or we're gonna be others focused? Yeah, I'm gonna be Loving our neighbor and it's it's a great time for gospel witnesses.

You guys are hearing this You know, we go to out we go to Costco and we just set up on the public sidewalk

And of course, they don't like it, but you know people have not liked the public preaching the gospel for thousands of years, so we went there and Costco manager comes out and says you're blocking traffic and you're breaking the law and we're like no, sir

We're not doing any of these and you're gonna have to leave. No, we're not gonna do that either So he just doesn't he's gonna call law enforcement. We say, okay, we just continue doing what we're doing

But the awesome thing is people were taking track after track We even thought probably not because they're worried about you know, catching something but we received so much more

Encouragement, you know had a boys out there from Christians anybody else. So it's just been a good a really good

Context and place to go share the gospel. Yeah, that's what we encourage you to do Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know,

I would we always Are huge proponents of submission to elders. So wherever you are in the country

I would really talk to your your pastors and then go these through these things With them as far as where you can evangelize because again as we just said earlier

Our context is not your context around the nation if you're listening to this around the nation so it'd be a big big deal to go to your pastors and make sure you're thinking things through as far as consequences and Obedience to law enforcement as far as you can right, right.

Go ahead I was just gonna say it's amazing to see in the midst of this all that God is doing, you know Just and you know seeing on Facebook people out

Costco Walmart You know just things like drag story time being shut down.

Yeah, no pride parade Some abortion clinics being shut down. Although hmm, you know, they shutting down church is really quick But they're still allowing abortions to take place

So that's messed up But you know, God will be God will be glorified through this and so we can take comfort in that, right?

That's exactly what I was gonna say. Just a couple hopeful things In just basically building on what you had said initially is we got to hold fast to what is certain

Yeah, and what are some certain things about the virus God created the virus? Yeah, how dare you say that right?

Well, the question is if he didn't create it where to come from right mother nature Yeah, as mother nature sovereign over the situation

No God is John one says in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

God He was in the beginning with God all things were made through him and without him was not anything made that was made

Colossians 1 16 through 17 for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth Visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or rulers is just covering everything right or authorities all things were created through him and for him

And he's before all things and in him all things hold together God doesn't control the virus

God will like you just said will receive glory from the virus And we who are in Christ, we don't need to fear a thing right about it

Because what does he he holds us as the scriptures say the apple of his own eye? Yeah, we're so dear to him.

So that's what we can be certain about. Is this from God? Yes Is it from the devil? I was just from the devil anything, you know, trying is always at the hand of devil

No, we know the devil only does what God allows ultimately right that he's just a puppet for God's own purposes, right?

The scriptures say this about fear fear not for I am with you be not dismayed for I am your

God I will strengthen you. I will help you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand

So as we're listening to the news and we're looking all about us We have to have these sure foundations these anchors of our faith.

Yeah, that will get us through There's nothing else other than the surety that we find in the scriptures are gonna get us through any type of difficulty

What you just said? We've this is not this is not hard like the writer of Hebrews said that we have not suffered to the point of shedding blood

Like the Covenanters. Yeah, like the you know folks in North Korea Christians in North Korea in prisons or around the world

Under all sorts of persecution. We really have it good, but you're not gonna get through anything

In a sensible and a calm and a collective making right decisions not panicky decisions, right?

Unless you're firmly you give your feet are firmly standing upon God's Word. Mm -hmm Philippians 4 4 7 says

Rejoice and we all know this says rejoice in the Lord always again I will say rejoice let your reasonableness be known to everyone.

The Lord is at hand. Do not be anxious about anything So a lot of us know this right pictures tattoos, whatever

But in everything in prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God and this is a part

I just haven't thought about a lot of those. I was just reading this it says in the peace of God which surpasses all understanding

Will guard your hearts in your minds and Christ Jesus and sighs I was reading that I said, oh man

I really focused in on that will guard your heart so we can actually Receive peace from God.

That's gonna be a defense to our hearts if we go about Praying and supplicating with Thanksgiving, right?

So, I think so many folks now are dealing with all sorts of anxiety we feel for him, right

No, this is not a club over the head to them But what the scriptures promises is that God will grant his people peace if we go to him

It's an active thing that we can be about and I think what we can do is we can go to the news

Do we have to be informed? Of course But what I would say is if you want a defense around your heart from anxiety

From worry and you have to go to him, you know read the news But don't let the news be the only thing that you're absorbing in right?

It's got to be the scriptures your relationship with him And he says that if you would do this thing, then

I'll defend your heart and I just think that so many people need that Right now, right? Yeah, it's so beautiful, too

You know what a blessing to have that and to have that peace that surpasses all Understanding when the rest of the world's just going nuts.

Yeah, exactly Yeah, cuz somebody people so many people say I just I can't I don't know what to do about my anxiety or my fear

I just have to live with it, but the scripture saying no, you don't Yeah If you go to him if you if you apply

What he tells you or if you do what he tells you to do and apply biblical principle that you can live in surety and Peace, right?

It's a peace that passes all understanding. It's like I don't know why I'm so peaceful in the midst of the storm

Well, it's because you went to the source of peace and prayer. Yeah, exactly It's an amazing how our church is going through Philippians before this all happened and yeah,

Philippians is just so like Amazing for encouragement and dealing with trials and giving you giving us like direct

Instructions on what we can do. Like I was just reading this to my family last night because we can get overwhelmed

I think especially as moms and dads too I think moms tend to worry a little bit more we think about what what if you know

What if my my child gets it? What if I get it and I can't take care of them and then we could just go down this terrible Funny trail, but I was reading through Philippians 4 8 and it says finally brothers, whatever is true

Whatever is honorable, whatever is just whatever is pure. Whatever is lovely Whatever is commendable if there's any excellence if there's anything worthy of praise think about those things

So as we start to let our mind wander and fear creeps in after watching the news

I mean, I feel like I'll be fine and I'll turn on that news and I'm like dang. He's all dead right, but if you just have the

Word of God correct your way of thinking and you focus on what God calls us to Think on things that are pure lovely worthy of praise then he will give us peace

He will allow us to get through this trial and when the anxiety comes that's not to say we're not gonna struggle with anxiety that it's just gonna be gone, but God gives us specific instructions on what to set our mind on not to just not do it.

Just don't worry. No, no You're gonna think on these things right? It's gonna help you exactly because you're gonna be

Kind of a slave to the spirit of the age Which is if you don't if you don't if you're not proactive in being obedient to the commands of God in particular these commands

That ensure our peace you're going to You know suffer Anxiety and fear it's something that you don't have to try to do

It's gonna happen because you're getting you're getting information from God and his word that's really gonna have an effect on you and it's gonna be determinative of your of your decisions and actions or it's gonna be

Just the secular media sources and when it's only that and again, I want to you know, kind of qualify this

We need to be informed about what's going on Then you're gonna have really panicky decisions and I think that's what we're seeing is very not principled decisions, but panic decisions

That's why people go and say, you know, the bottoms gonna drop out of this As much TP and hand sanitizer, yeah, you know spam

Yeah Hey, hey bill, hey, hey, yeah, hey man, how's it going?

So glad you called in. How are you? Not bad, how are you we're doing good just trying to kind of navigate these crazy times

So we invited you on the show and you know from the get -go We want you to know that we care about you as we were kind of discussing over Facebook Messenger This is more of a you know, we just want to have a civil and a cordial respectful discussion and we do take opposing points

But we think that you can disagree without destroying one another we think that you can have constructive productive

Argumentation without necessarily tearing somebody apart and that's what we've got I think it's necessary.

Yeah, it's Somebody civilly with a different viewpoint. Sure. No, absolutely.

So that's our purpose and you know as Christians We're commanded to love our neighbor. So ultimately this is a should be an expression of love towards you and You know pointing you to truth and pointing you to Christ because we think that's the path that take

Jesus would even say this is I'm the way the truth in the life and no one can come to the Father, but but by me

So as Bible believe in Jesus love and Christians, we have to be, you know subservient to his commands and that's what we want to do in our show our show is called provoked and The purpose of the show is really to equip and help them alongside of the

Christian Church Help them to love their neighbor in and out of the womb. We want to equip the church to preach the gospel the good news of who

Jesus is and to rescue babies at the abortion mill and To actually tear down cultural idols that we believe are destructive.

So just so you you know where we're coming from But what's gonna happen right now is we're just gonna have just a nice organic discussion about this

I just want to lay a couple ground rules Yeah, and I'm sorry, I was just about to say my sister is here.

Hi Bill. Yeah, my name's hi Nice to meet you. My name is Desi. Thank you so much for coming on the show

Yeah, yeah, why not, you know, well, we really appreciate it I can't tell you it's been actually a little difficult to find somebody

From your camp that would agree to come we've had some people cancel. And so we we do appreciate your time and Being brave to to call in and and have a good discussion with us

So, thank you, and thanks for your service being an EMT as well. I'm sure that's hard right now Um Yeah, so oddly enough not to not to go off track but people are actually only calling for real emergencies now

That's not Classically the case, you know, you used to be more people call for silly reasons

But now it's people are taking that at least a little more seriously You know

A little more focus on the actual big problem. Yeah Well, thank you again.

And yeah, our thoughts and prayers are for with you know, everybody that's serving in that capacity in the medical field So we'll be praying for you and your loved ones

Awesome. Okay, so we'll get rolling just a couple ground rules that I think are almost self -explanatory or to be expected, but We want to respect one another.

I mean, we're very passionate about the subject of the pro -life Subject we and as I said, we actually go to Abortion clinics in our city and we preach the gospel and we offer moms that are heading in to have an abortion

We we offer them financial help and whatever they need material possessions And we've been privileged and by God's grace alone to see babies saved

So this is something that's very near and dear to our hearts and my sister and I can get very passionate But we just want to respect you and as we're talking let's just let one another finish their thought and not talk over And we're gonna have to do that we're actually gonna have to work harder at that than you are because it's both of I both of us together talking to you about You know the information that you're giving us

So we're gonna we're gonna work to do that. And another thing is is an ad hominem fallacy And if you don't know what that means, it's it's an ad hominem is something that attacks the person

So and unfortunately see it a lot. It's I'm not gonna deal with the argument or attack the argument but I'm going to attack the person and so when people, you know resort to ad hominems and Unfortunately in this debate, it's all over the place

It really means that their argument has failed because they have nothing else to go to someone attack the person

So we promise bro, we won't cuss you out You just Just don't do it

Yeah Yeah, of course.

So just a couple things again, just don't let's let let's let the person speaking finish their thought and let's not attack the person

So let's get into this. I just want to ask you to start off with for you to just explain your position

Regarding abortion like why do you feel so passionate about this? Okay So I would say

I'm not passionate about it in the sense of I mean,

I definitely wouldn't say my my feelings towards it are the

Equivalent of yours, but opposite You know, I just I definitely wouldn't encourage anybody to get an abortion

I think that It's been said by by a couple of people

Obama was one I think Was it in Jordan Peterson? That was like a thing with his one of his lectures about how like even people that are

Pro -choice, I guess we'll call it Nobody nobody likes abortion, you know, it's not

Unless you're part of some strange extreme group, you know, nobody thinks it's like a good thing

Just maybe sometimes a necessary thing for for society and for the individual

You know, it's not something that you You would look forward to your friend or family member having to do

So it's not that anybody anybody reasonable likes it. I would say but it's

One of those things I think that the legal system has to accommodate for the fact that it happened

Whether or not it's it's legal and I know there's a lot of layers to that but it's something that I Think I came across a statistic and I'm sure you're much more well -versed in it than I am but that in I Think I think in the developed world about one out of five pregnancies in an abortion and And so regardless of any other

Question about it. It's obviously something that occurs a lot and So with that being the case there should be laws surrounding it, right?

I Would say that in a a practical sense

It's Sort of something that you know, we have to accept the fact that it occurs I guess and do our best to make sure that it it's not a dangerous thing for the people that that Want or need to have it done.

However, you know, however you want to put it and You know, obviously there's a lot of a lot of moral questions that go into that But yeah,

I mean it's obviously a huge topic And there's a lot of nuance and I think

I think that's another thing With the you know, the blanket terms pro -life or pro -choice.

There's a lot of nuance in there, you know, so like I Myself don't really think it would be morally, right for you know a

Baby who their due date is the next day for an abortion to occur then I think that's you know, pretty reprehensible

But I guess the extreme opposite of that are you know, I know there's people that are even against contraception

Which isn't the same thing but it's related and you know,

I would say that's quite extreme in the opposite direction and a dangerous thing and sort of moving backwards

So it it's hard to figure out right? So when does This new what we'll call it life, you know, we'll say it will call

Refer to as life when is a human being with rights? And I think that's where the debate really lies, you know, and I think there's

I mean any Five people that you talk to about it would probably have five different opinions on when that is

But I I think when you move into the extreme territories is when it gets kind of Dangerous or unreasonable or unethical depending on you know, which which camp you're going into but I guess you know,

I'd like to know more where where you guys stand about things like that with like yeah, like like contraception and You know if you sort of have your own personal ideas on when

I Guess not when life begins because that's a loaded question, right because life's been around for a long time

But when an individual becomes an individual I guess when when it being as a human with rights,

I guess Yeah, okay. Well, I appreciate your kind of opening explanation of that and I think there's a lot of Things that we could talk about in that but I think at the basis of it is and you said this, you know

If you were to ask five different People they would give you five different opinions So you have to ask yourself what authority?

Determines how I'm thinking, you know, why what do I go to to where do I go to define truth?

Where do I go to to determine? To answer the questions that I have and I think that's what you said

I mean there's somebody says a life begins at Conception or fertilization people say no life doesn't begin until the beat of the heart or until there's brainwaves

So, I mean, there's all these different opinions. I mean, can we really be fixed on an authoritative position?

That's certain we can be certain about these things And so kind of getting before we get into the content of what you just said

I think it would be good for us to talk about something real quickly and Your your

Facebook profile is Public and so I went into your

Facebook profile and I just looked briefly because we don't know each other too much I pray we get to know each other better as the future goes on But I looked at your religious views and it says that you actually you quoted

Luke chapter 9 verse 23 it says and he said to all anyone would come after me let him deny himself and Take up his cross daily and follow me and for some of the books

And I've actually read Two or three of the books that you put up there in the Bible the case for Christ a book on evangelism

And I think a book it's called un -christian, but it's not actually anti -christian It's right it's workers and so I guess a question

I have before we get into because you've brought up points about You know, when does life begin?

You brought up points about extreme positions that people take you brought up a point that this is very difficult

Not everybody necessarily wants to do it and we could talk about those things but I think we got it we have to start from a foundation here to determine what's true or not because it's just I can't

I can't remember what Pastor Jeff says. It's just like You know Blowing kisses to the wind, right?

It's my opinion against your opinion and we can we can talk here and we're just speaking subjective opinions

I mean we might as well just like size says talk about you know The moon or something talk about if the moon is, you know, actually green cheese or something like that, you know, but But my question for you, and I think it'll get us at a starting point is are you a professing

Christian? so So those were written

As far as my Facebook goes, okay, probably a little over a decade ago I would say not by Not by a standard that you know a church would deem

Christian so For for the sake of saving time we'll say no Okay, so even those things were written long ago and you are you don't hold it so you wouldn't believe that the

Bible is God's word or You were called to obey God or anything like that Yeah, I mean

I would say I'm Currently agnostic about it, which is equivalent of saying no,

I guess Okay. All right So as Christians are the foundation that we stand upon is the

Word of God that's where we come from because we believe it's the objective standard of truth and Without an objective standard of truth that you can appeal to or a point to well then you're left in the realm of subjectivity and if we're left in the realm of subjectivity

People will tell you and they actually tell us a lot because we go out preaching the gospel You know, I have my truth and you have your truth.

That truth is not something absolute But truth is something relative and you right?

I think you know as well as I know or that if truth is relative truth doesn't exist if truth is

Yeah, that's not really the same word anymore, right? It isn't right? No, it doesn't

I'll explain that's okay. I'll explain it because if truth is relative somebody states their position somebody states their worldview

And all I have to do is say the contrary to the worldview and you have to ask a question

What's true if it's if it's just based solely on subjectivity the way that I see life based upon my own senses or reasoning

Then we have no truth because there has to be a frame of reference There has to be an objective standard of truth that we go to to determine what truth is

And so that's what that's the only thing that we can kind of answer you There's there's science, but of course science is a way of determining what truth is

Of course we do look at scientific facts when it comes to you know life and I guess if you were to ask us

When does life begin? I think that's a question that's been answered and in the scientific field and life begins at the moment of fertilization and We believe that because you know

I have 40 different quotes from 40 different medical professionals that would say life begins when the sperm and the ovum come together

And that's that's the beginning of life. We know at that moment of conception of fertilization. That's when a unique human being

Arises and we believe God created that human being And so you can't go to science

To ask when life begins, but we would go to the scriptures and say that God is the author of life

He's the one and he said something in Job chapter 1 He said that he knew

Job from the womb and I'm gonna read it to you really quick Actually, I don't have it right in front of me

It's actually the oldest oldest book in the scriptures, but God says about Job he says I remember he says

I called you from the womb and before You were even in the womb I knew you so because we believe that the baby in the womb is a product of God's design and Is a is a product of his his creation

He's actually creating and developing the baby in the womb that that that baby has is a person even before Because that baby was thought of even before he was created or she was created

And so we would say person it's personages personhood personhood Thank you

Is something that is something that God determines in his word and Something that he would even grant to human being he says before I knit you together in your mother's womb, right?

So the question though I have is is if life doesn't begin at the moment of fertilization

When does it begin, you know, is it 12 weeks 13 weeks 15 weeks 16 weeks 17?

It seems like at the moment of fertilization. There's something that comes together and there's a human organism

Created at that moment and then of course, there's cellular division There's the development of the baby in the womb and so to say that life begins after that.

I don't see it Being something that you can account for so I think that it would have to be arbitrary, right?

What do you think? So I would say for for the first bit about About the nature of truth.

I would say that so I'm not I'm not a relativist As far as Like the realm of fact, right so if somebody you know says they

Don't believe in coronavirus or something I'd say well, you're wrong As far as morality goes

I would say I'm I'm a little undecided with that in so far as like The way the way in which it arose in human history and you know the structures around it and and The things that we consider immoral now that were considered moral even in biblical times and vice versa

I Would say that's a little more Difficult to nail down I think

So the difficult Part with abortion is that it's this

It's one of those things where there's two sort of conflicting Virtues that we consider important Hitting one another right so we consider

Life in and of itself important, right I'd say most people can agree with that But we also consider quality of life to be quite important and an individual's choice, right?

And not not just choice in the sense of pro -choice but You know the level in which a person can sort of determine their own

Livelihood and quality of life and all that sort of stuff So I'd say that's where the morality becomes difficult so Yeah, I got you

You let me go ahead. So I'm just trying to kind of parse out what you're saying here So what you're saying is it's kind of it's hard to determine

What's the better moral decision for the individual when it comes to abortion is it

The life of the baby or if it's the quality of life for the mother. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Right, right the mother as an individual and society at large as a general right now

For example, and I'm sure you have More up -to -date numbers than I do, but I think there's been

What is it 60 million since Rovers, right? Yeah, 60 million probably okay

So there's let's picture in America abortions did not

Hey bill Yeah Hey, you're breaking up a little bit.

Can you can you say yeah, that's okay. You're better now. Yeah. Okay good

So That's 60 million more people in a country. That's are we like 325 million something like that.

Mm -hmm I don't know, you know, I confused time zones a couple hours ago. It's okay

Some of the some of the numbers are maybe I'm mixing up but so 60 million on top of that and then let's say

Just for argument's sake even Half of them had another kid, even though I'd probably be more but that's

You know 90 more million people in a country that I mean even like in our current climate

We don't have the resources to handle what's going on now That's You know something that isn't isn't terminating something that's you know

So many cells old or so many days old or so many weeks old, but you know a person who's you know 38 or 60 or whatever

So I do think it beyond the choice of the mother. I think it Becomes a negative effect on society at large.

Okay, let's just stop there Yeah, let's just stop there and kind of deal with that because we'd like to kind of respond to that Because I think both you and I'm new to this too, bro.

So I appreciate you cutting me some slack I think we are talking about a bunch of different things almost without dealing with the with the issues individually

Um, so I hear your argument and here it's saying well if we allowed 60 or 60 more people 60 more million people were to fill the planet

And they had kids it would it would be a huge it'd be a huge sum I mean, that'd be that'd be a lot of people but I think this is the fallacy of the slippery slope and What the slippery slope talks about is is when someone makes a claim about a series of events that would lead to one major event

Usually a bad event, but with not knowing Exactly, what would happen?

So we're saying hey look abortion is necessary because we had so many people upon the earth

Then it would equate to a bad outcome And so that would be the fallacy of the slippery slope because we don't know it could be

It could be a great outcome the more people. I mean you think about 60 million people I mean we believe every human being is creating the image of God and so everybody has worth and value and dignity that should be fought for regardless of their

Position in the earth or their vocation, but you got to ask yourself I mean, who didn't who did we murder and kill in the past 60 60 or sorry in the past 47 years?

Could have been the person that cured cancer It could have been all sorts of poets but a poet a physician it doesn't really matter because we believe those people

Should have been given the right to life. But so I'm what I'm saying is you know, we can't see into the future and I think we do get into that felicious realm if we believe that if There were somehow a larger number of people in the earth or in the nation that would it somehow be a bad result

Does that make sense? Yeah, sure, so I will say with the

Logical fallacies even though so those aren't Absolute And it's like Like it's not an outlandish claim for me to think that if we had 90 million more people in a country that you know, let's

Take a separate issue and I'm just using it for an example I definitely don't want to get into it obviously But as far as like illegal immigration goes, you know, which you know,

I'm estimating to be about 10 million most Most people that vote against abortion think they're a drain on the economy that extra 10 million, right?

So another 90 million and there's some statistics to back that up to where the crime rate in the 80s getting into early 90s was astounding and then there was a drastic drop

Which different people had different theories about? The one theory is that that's about You know the age group of 18 to 25 year olds that tend to do those crimes that were so prevalent

In the 80s There was just less of them because of access to to Contraceptives and abortion

So I would say that it's not without some merit to think that more people with a bad economic

Starting point is Not healthy for a country, you know,

I mean there's Countries where they're pretty terrible about any contraceptive method and it exponentially gets worse because of that and you know, not not even a

Yeah, I don't I don't want to branch out too much because like you said, you know, there's every comment There's more to be said about it.

Yeah Okay, but I would also say go ahead as far as the slippery slope thing goes the the argument that you know

One of them could have cured cancer, you know I mean, that's a slippery slope argument too.

And one of them could have also been you know, the next Joseph Stalin, so it's Right, right.

No, I'm not saying any of them are and yeah, I'm saying that it's it's it's not it's not a

A valid claim in the argument itself exactly Absolutely, so I agree it's not a valid claim or an argument

So what I was just using that the counter example that saying that it would eventuate to some negative

Future climate in the nation to have more people I would say, you know, we could say on the other hand

It could be better But again, I'm not employing that at all because I just don't believe okay that if we are to look at our nation

Look at a world and say we want to get into a better position I don't believe sacrificing human beings to achieve that is the correct route, right?

I mean because right now We could say, you know you eliminate the human populace or you deplete them somehow would be better for all of us because Less people would be consuming resources, you know,

I just don't believe that sure. I think the cost is yeah Yeah, there used to be this

Like if you think the world's overpopulated then go ahead and volunteer yourself Sure, the first one that's right, you know, right so there is that I would say that it's and that that's the that's the sneaky thing about the

Discussion is if you frame it as sacrificing human beings Then you know,

I would say that That kind of wins argument we're not gonna line people up that we consider, you know, not

Functional enough to participate or something like that or killing them, right? More and more lies and okay.

What is a human being? What is a human with rights? So I didn't want to mention the the life thing.

Can I answer that before about how? Yeah, let me just answer and Dezzie you can jump in whenever you want because your question there

Excuse me It was what's a human being? You know, what is a human being now? What where can we go to determine that?

I mean if we go to science, we know human a human being Starts at the moment of fertilization, you know that but when

I have the big question We have to ask ourselves is how can we be certain about the answer the question that we're we're asking?

Well, how can we have any type of certainty? About it. I mean because there's so many people that can give their biased and subjective opinions about it but what what we're saying is that there has to be an objective source that we can stand upon and We believe it is found in the scriptures something that you once believed in But again, you're saying you don't now or you're kind of maybe agnostic or thinking these things through which

I'd want to put words in Your mouth, but I think as you go to the foundation of the

Word of God that you can determine What a human being is and it's congruent with Scientific evidence in fact and just basic logic, you know that the baby in the womb is a human being.

It's a person It's you know, you leave that baby alone it's gonna come out of the mother and In have its life of whatever it's gonna do.

There's gonna be plumbers and painters and poets and you know scientists whoever it may be but what we would say is that we can only be certain if we have a solid foundation to stand upon and we argue our argument is that it is the

Word of God and God says he's the one that knits the baby together in the womb that this is a product not from Chance evolutionary processes, which we don't think logically adds up to say that We are just here by chance and chaos

That is an untenable explanation of things There's no certainty in there because we know out of there's no order that comes out of any type of chaos in our experience so I would say to answer your question that life is based upon the the definition of life is based upon what the

Scriptures say and The Scriptures say that God is the author of life that he's the creator of life and then that baby in the womb even before the sperm

Comes together with the egg God has already planned for this baby to be alive and has purpose and dignity created in his image and Is for in ultimately that baby should be allowed to live for his glory and for his pleasure, but go on with what you're saying

Yeah, so I'll get into some of the things we mentioned in a moment

But um as far as the the definition of life And I don't want to put words in your mouth either but I'd say it's important to highlight the difference between what is a

What's a what's a life what's an organism with a you know carbon -based DNA Structured entity and what is a person right, right and where is

You know, where does where is personhood land? Because I think those are obviously related but two separate questions

Because we don't we don't take all life to be a sacred, right? Well, I think it has its degrees.

No, we don't You know a cockroach in the ground even though I would agree with that right is different than a baby in the womb

Yeah, we go ahead and I want to interrupt you. I'm just curious to and right I know I don't want to interrupt you either.

I just I'm curious to what you believe Bill what what do you think?

Where where is that moment that you say? Okay now Killing this child is okay or not.

Okay. I'm just curious I'm just finding it what you're saying to be pretty interesting actually

So do you have a moment where you feel like okay, this is the point where? this becomes a

Human the baby that's worthy and valuable and should be given the same

Protections and rights under the law What is that for you? Do you have a number or is it kind of up in the air?

Is it is it depend on how the mom feels about the situation if the baby's wanted or unwanted if she's in a unplanned or planned pregnancy like Where do you land on that?

Yeah, so I would say when a A Sheetus has a like Qualia Experiences I would say is a good marker

Which you know the more we find out about that the more maybe it's you know A little earlier than people thought which is important to the debate for sure

But it's certainly not, you know on day seven or even on the week six, you know

And as far as how the questions framed about you know, when is it okay to kill a child?

I would say it's never okay to kill a child Right. I don't I actually don't get that from you from just from what you've been telling me.

I I Can see that you're you're concerned about you know, what's right?

And what's wrong even though you're saying you're agnostic and I say this with respect I feel like I I can see your

Christianity whatever that background is kind of leaking into your worldview And so I'm not

I don't think that that you are just some cold -hearted person. That is like Yeah, just kill all the babies no matter what and You know, you're talking about population control

And I think you would be agree with me just from the small amount of time that that we've had you on here

You know who else talked about population control is Hitler and I think that you would agree that that was wicked and evil

I just don't I don't see you not agreeing with that. Am I right? Yeah, I mean but I would say those are separate arguments well, yeah because you're

I understand You're saying that the human you know, you're you're arguing against humanity, right?

And so you're saying that's different because Jewish people and during the Holocaust were outside of the womb

But we're saying if we're looking at everybody as equal Everybody have an equal rights regardless of their age

That everybody should be afforded the same protection, right? I don't know I just I don't think that you

I think that if there was like, I think that if there was like a two -year -old here you were in the studio with us and there's a two two -year -old across the street and They were gonna walk out in traffic, but you know, we have a problem with population control that you would be like, you know

It's gonna be better for the population. I think So you were saying sorry to bunny trail you were saying kind of where they can live

Where the baby can live outside of the woman woman his or her own is that right like 22 weeks?

I think right now is the age. No. Well, I think he was saying No experiences of qualia, so when you when when you're an organism that has

Thoughts and feelings and experiences I would say that is the beginning of a human existence

I don't think when you're 16 cells old. That's the beginning of a human experience

I don't think It's equatable to something like the

Holocaust because those are those were people with You know full

Human experience. I actually that's you know, I just as a side note Because I have run across that before with people comparing it to the

Holocaust And I you know, I suppose if you if you truly believe that as soon as a sperm enters an egg

It has the exact same You know not only value but but Quantifiable experience exchange with a 40 year old who got gasped in an oven or got gas and then thrown in an oven

You know, I if if I if I were a

Relative to somebody like that I'd find that sort of demeaning to what the

Holocaust actually was although You know, I guess if you think that Yeah, if life starts a conception and that is a full human with full rights and I get the comparison, right?

I would say it's you know, it's a different thing. Yeah Yeah, no,

I I got you and I'm following what you're saying. Is that you're saying look the the six or seven day year old

Human which at the moment of realization that that's a specific genotype, right? The baby is is a human in the sense that has all the information

All it needs to do is be left alone and develop So it has all the genetic information to become the fully developed human that it is so what we're saying is that value is based upon a level of development though, and so the but the bigger question is is

You know, why do you believe what you believe? I just don't know how you can account for it. It seems like You know bill you saying look at I think that that That baby in the womb or that fetus which is it just means a little child in Latin that that becomes a viable human being

Worth, you know to be protected and to be cared for it seems like you know

The moment you put it to turn, you know, you put a pin on the timeline away from Fertilization is

Totally arbitrary. So we're asking is how can you account for your claimer? You know why it just it seems like it's based upon you're just your your own experience or maybe your own

You know senses and reasoning your observation your education But I just you know scientifically and you know, what we fall back on theologically

It's it's on the foundation that you that you stand and we have to stand on that but there's it's just it

I can't get away from the arbitrariness of it because there is no

Found there's no foundation that you can stand upon to really claim. Well a human Humanity human experience begins at 11 weeks or 13 weeks or 15 weeks

You see what I mean is how can how can that be proven in your worldview now? We would say we don't we believe that humanity began before the womb based upon the mind of God.

This is his Creation this ultimately belongs to him. He is the ruler and master and King over us.

So that's ultimately the foundation, but I but we would ask you okay, you don't agree with that But how do you account for that answer that you gave us?

How do you account for your position? Well, so as far as accounting where it goes

So, I don't think that It's it's an out to say well You know, we think this because God said it and God obviously said it so everybody

Who doesn't think that is just wrong, you know, like we're all coming at the same things with at least to some degree a similar means of like Trying to understand the world at large.

Sure, right? so I would say, you know as far as Not to get off into something else sure but but as far as the claim that you know, the

Bible is obviously correct and the you know Everything in it is

Like blatantly true. I Would I would dispute that I would say there's a there's a lot of assumed things about that that line of arguing

I Would also say that to think somebody who does not believe strictly that has no basis for What they think or just things that just arbitrarily comes upon something

I would say that's incorrect to Somebody who doesn't believe the

Bible doesn't you know, sort of pick things out of a hat to decide what to believe

No, no, totally. And so I think yeah, just I'm sorry for interrupting you but just so we clarify

We're coming from I think Desi was kind of alluding to it a little earlier is that we know that you know things

We know that you know and you use your reasoning use laws of logic and your argumentation You've been doing that even as we've been speaking to you

So things that we take for granted, but we believe that there's ultimately no accounting for those things you know accounting for some type or so You know, it's either and this is what

I say to a lot of atheists friends or atheists that we talked to say Okay, we understand that you you are professing this now we as Christians don't believe even that there are any atheists because by the

Bible says That we are not with we don't have an excuse when we stand before God that we all are actually believing in God We just suppress the truth about that in our own unrighteousness

It's a condition of the humanity that God explains in Romans chapter 1 But what we are saying is we know that you use logic.

We know that you use you have certain claims But ultimately as I said to start off this whole discussion if there is no objective standard that we can stand on For morality for whatever it may be

Then it seems like we can there's no accounting for that, right? So it's either God said he created this is the way

This is this is his explanation of things or it's left to the individual their own prejudicial conjecture their own experiences

And so we're we're just saying okay, you know, we know that you're an agnostic but if God really isn't the basis of For everything then we're kind of left to our own qualms and it's just you know, what is it sound and fury?

Signifying nothing or it's just it's molecules in motion. It's just chance processes and so in that type of worldview or In that explanation of why we believe what we believe if it's not the

God of the Bible Then it's got to be just open to someone's opinion and you know, that's where we're asking

How can we get out of the realm of arbitrariness and and for us? The only answer would be it's the truth as revealed by the one who created all things

Yeah, hey does he wants to say something real quick before I go ahead And and I hope you're comfortable with me asking this but I think it's crucial to actually what we're talking about And the more we talk about it

What happened to your Christianity So do you want to share about like or yeah, if you feel comfortable, yeah, did you did you grow up in a

Christian home? No, I didn't grow up in a Christian home, okay,

I Guess became one for lack of a better way of putting it when

I was 15 and then by My mid 20s or there was enough

Sort of issues that I had with the philosophy itself problems that I you know slipping flipping away from Okay, so the

Bible is just God's truth, right? I found myself making a lot of strange excuses for different things like for example when

So long as we're talking about the The debate about killing children when God commands children to be killed in the

Old Testament And I know I'm quite familiar with all the you know arguments as to why that's okay because they troubled me for a long time and I think there was enough accumulation of that to make me at least

Bothered enough to say, okay To just assume this anymore because if I wanted if I want to deal with it, honestly,

I can't start off with the assumption of No, that's that's fine.

And I just have to realign the way I think about things including morality actually ironically enough to fit into that I would say

Jesus himself Would be

I Suppose that's why I would say I'm not To Ask me like personally specifically why

I would say I'm not a Christian by any standard I just know by the the standards of definitely definitely the evangelical church, but probably church at large

I'm not but I'm still Sort of Deciding myself about Jesus himself now by Extending from that as far as the

Bible at large is concerned I Don't know. There's there's a lot of stuff in there.

That's it's quite gruesome and you know, I feel like Fairly evidently was written by people with a completely different Paradigm and worldview to what we have and you know,

I like Having to resolve okay. Well, it says the earth is 5 ,000 years old if you track the name

So, how am I gonna be comfortable with that things like that? I guess a multitude not one single.

Yeah Yeah, thank you for your honesty in that and for answering that question I didn't mean to blindside you with that, but we are having to wrap it up a little bit

So I just want to be transparent with you I wasn't a Christian until I was like 29 years old.

And so I kind of on the other side Where I said a lot of the same things and you know was in line with what you're saying

But I do know that God changed my heart and he changed my mind and it kind of sounds like to me that you're kind of working through some things so We just want to share the gospel with you because I hadn't heard it actually until I was about 28 or 29

I thought I knew the gospel. I didn't I had some kind of twisted version where I was like, you know

Not biblical. It was not the gospel and I did watch a movie and I hope that you watch this.

It's 180 movie calm It's only 30 minutes If you just you know when we got some time watch that movie, it really was an eye -opener for me

But I do appreciate like even though I don't even know how interesting this conversation will be to other people but I it's refreshing for me because you we were able to just kind of talk some things through and obviously

We don't agree or we're not seeing eye -to -eye on some certain things But man, I do have hope for you that you will come to Christ.

I really do, you know We love you and we do this and it might sound weird we've never met you but I do have a concern and a love for you and so does

Zach and so You know abortion is actually a side issue to the gospel

It's an important issue and we do believe that you know, you Bill when you were conceived even if you were not wanted or you were not planned but at the moment of conception that God knew you and had a

Purpose for your life and that you're so much worth more than than what you're saying

You think you're worth or you were worth maybe at that point? But if you wouldn't mind

Zach's gonna give you the gospel here And I just personally want to thank you for your time and your consideration and being so respectful and vulnerable and honest and you know

Just allowing us to talk to you and spending your your time with us today. I really I truly appreciate it, right?

so and so we we actually talked about a lot of stuff without talking about I mean getting into the nitty -gritty of of all the different things that came up and we talked

I mean there are things alluded to as You know the inspiration of Scripture and God's choosing to kill certain people in the

Old Testament So there's a lot to talk about and I'll talk to Dez But if you're willing we could have a more robust bus conversation in the future if you want to And maybe yeah,

I mean because we I'm we're not used to doing this You're not used to doing this and I and I know we had maybe of it a disjointed conversation

But I'm thinking maybe we can have a little bit more structured to where we'll what we'll do is

We'll listen to what you said You could listen to what we said and maybe we'll kind of go at it for lack of a better Word or just kind of deal with the individual things that were brought up that we didn't deal with like, you know how do we determine what's moral or you know, how do we know that the scriptures are our

God's Word or you know Why did God kill kids which he did and so Christian if God's killing kids, why are you saying that we can't so I had

There's a lot of different subjects that come up But ultimately our show is not to win an argument and that might sound kind of weird because this is more of a debate type

Of format, even though it's conversational. We don't we're different in the sense that we're not out here just to tell you

Hey, look, we beat you or we bring up logical fallacies just to say oh look you're wrong bill

No, that's not truly caring for you. And that's ultimately not our purpose on the show Our purpose on the show is to share the the light of Christ Truth of God's Word to you and to whoever would listen because we believe it's truth we believe as the scriptures say the gospel is the power and to salvation for those who believe that God actually takes this message of Good news and he saves people and that's what we want more than anything

And so as we you know, a command is to deal with different Ideologies, that's what the scripture says that we're prepared to do and that's so that's what we're doing in the show but ultimately our goal is to point you to Christ to give you truth and then all and then we could just Rest because we've done our job.

Well, you know, I think you said in one of our Facebook correspondence posts You said look I'm not here to change your mind and we can't change your mind at all

You know We believe that it is through the power of the gospel and God's grace given to you that your that your heart and mind can

Be changed and that's what we want. But just just to put it real briefly What is the good news the gospel and you can kind of break it down in the three segments

It starts out with good news bad news. Good news The good news is that we are created by God That we don't believe that we're just products of random chance.

I mean product of random chance we just don't think is tenable or is somehow and Significant or a

Capable explanation, I can't think of the word right now a good explanation, right? We believe God created all things and not necessarily because we can figure it all out

But because his word says so that he is God that he's the creator. He created you he created me

He does it all for his purposes all for his glory That's ultimately why we're so opposed to abortion because these babies are created for his purpose in his glory

Not that you have to necessarily agree with everything that we're saying to be a Christian There is essential truth and non -essential truth, but I don't want to get into that But the good news is that you're not just stardust

You're not just a process or a product of random chance that you were you were knit in your mother's womb

And I know how old are you Bill? 31 you're 31. Okay. I'm 10 years older than you are

But 31 years ago God had designed you he knit you together and he was a good gracious God giving you life

The bad news is that because of our sin Against him we're separated from him because the

Bible says he's perfectly pure and Perfectly righteous and I mean you've probably read the accounts in Genesis God created

Adam He said don't eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil Adam ate it ate and then he died spiritually so a curse was brought upon him because of His sin against God it was separation from God and so ultimately our biggest problem in life is our sin condition

It's an internal problem. We have this heart. The Bible calls it a stony heart that only wants to sin continually and then we

That's an internal heart issue. And then we have an external problem brought upon by sin and it's our rap sheet against God it's just these crimes that we've committed against a holy

God and because he's holy and righteous and good a Good a good judge will always

Punish evil, right? I mean if it's a a guy just for an explanation or an illustration say a guy, you know rapes a woman which is

Horrible, it's wicked. It's abominable and he goes into a judge in the in he goes stands before the judge

He's proven guilty and the judge just lets him go free. Well, that would not be a good judge We would say that would be an evil judge because evil like that should be dealt with in a proper way in a just way

So because God is good the sin deserves a punishment because he's a righteous

God And so the penalty for all lawbreakers for God is hell and that's an eternal jail cells

What hell is where you go to pay your crimes? I mean, you know, you can explain it that we go to jail now if we you know break the law of the land

It's a way of being penalized or paying for your your crimes and we're all in that boat

The Bible says for all have sinned and all fallen short of the glory of God, right? So we Christians are not better than anybody we're just better off we believe because of who

Christ is and what he's done to save us So because we're under sin because our sins demand a just penalty

We are going to stand before God on the day of our judgment. The Bible says it's once for us to die and then we face

Judgment will stand before him and on that day we stand before him He's gonna judge us based upon his law his commandments

He's not gonna a lot of people think that we're gonna stand before God and somehow, you know God's gonna wait to hear our opinion or take our own explanation of life

Into factor, but that's just not the way it's gonna go according to the Scriptures That's a day of sentencing for us.

And that's why the Bible says today is this today is a day of salvation We're found in our sins before him

Then we pay the penalty for those sins and that's an everlasting again punitive sentence in a place called hell and We don't want that for anybody and you think about it if Christians believe what we believe we do believe this and we hated people

We would not say a word Because we believe it's only through the gospel that people can be saved

No, we love and really those who love people at the highest level are gonna tell the good news

Especially Christians to them because truth is what we need the most so we're all in this desperate state

You know, the Bible says again for all of sin fall short of glory of God We're all born into sin We all deserve

God's wrath because we've broken it but God is also gracious and merciful and good and kind and that 2 ,000 years ago he sent

Jesus and Jesus is God in the flesh And Jesus lives this perfect life for 33 years up.

You can't and I can't live for 33 seconds, right? He does this not under compulsion

But willingly out of an act of mercy and grace and love Demonstrating God's love for us and then he goes to the

Roman a brutal Roman cross and he dies as horrific Torturous death and then in the cross.

He receives the wrath of God that he didn't deserve but that we all deserve and After he's he's he's laid in the tomb three days later

He rises in resurrection power and that's to demonstrate that it's only based upon Jesus that anyone could be saved and be made right with God that salvation is not something we can earn

It's the gift of God and it's all based upon grace and that's something we want for you

And in the response to all men is not to invite Jesus into the heart But the response is a command because after Jesus dies, he's resurrected out of the tomb

He goes to be at the right hand of the father and now he's the king He's ruling and reigning over this planet and the scriptures say he's putting all enemies underneath his feet

So the response to the message is a command to repent and to put your faith not in yourself or any other object of faith out there

But in one exclusive object of faith and that's Jesus Christ and that's the response that we would want for you but that's the good news, so As Yeah, as as people went out preaching the gospel and even

Jesus he would say if your ears have ears to hear than hear I mean if this is ringing true in your heart, then we would pray that you would cry out to Christ for salvation

But what we can do is number one. Thank you for coming on the show We appreciate your civility and your calmness and your ability to explain

You just your articulation was great, you know, and we'll think about having you on and maybe having a little bit more direct

Conversation getting a little bit into the nit and gritty about answering these questions. That sound good Yeah, yeah

Sure So it's it's so easy for a discussion about a specific thing to turn into such a broad thing

So it's you know, and there's a thousand discussions between right whether or not, you know life is

It Begins that conception and what's the basis for all truth and morality, you know, there's a there's a lot.

No, I'm sure. Yeah I think so the purpose I haven't coming on was you know,

I mean I kind of volunteered to you because I don't think it's smart for people to not communicate with people that have

Different worldviews and like I said, it's you know, I'm certainly not trying to convince you

To the thing differently than you do. I'd say it's twofold one is that People that have these opinions one.

It's not that they haven't thought it out. It's not that they're amoral It's not they don't care or anything like that You know, it's it's about quality of life for her people at large and so it's

In a strange sense, I guess it's definitely a change to people that are very

Anti -abortion it does come down to Trying to be compassionate on people.

I Guess how you define what a person is makes a big difference in that and the other thing is that you know

We're not People have different views aren't like wicked or you know

One feel on people, you know So it's not we're not Coming from a place of ignorance necessarily.

We're not coming from a malicious place either And you know and not everybody that has a different opinion on it despises

People who are pro -life, you know, it's great. Well, I appreciate that and I would just think you know

We'll set up our next discussion and because we can't get anybody else Well, no, it's like we're excited

I think that's why we went on so many bunny trails because a lot of time we get about two minutes into these Conversations and people just start cussing us out.

So we were like excited to have somebody not Yeah, no, we appreciate that and what you just said I mean you made a lot of moral claims and just claims about you know

People who are pro not I would say pro abortion, but I want you to think about how in this we'll talk about it more

But maybe it's just a launching pad in the next discussion because I want it to be a little bit more

Like you had just said not just so general but a little bit narrow in the sense. We deal with particular

Arguments and we we answer those arguments I think that'd be a good thing to do for our next discussion but my my question and what

I want you to kind of muse about and think about is when I make a truth claim about Something how can

I account for that? You know, why do I believe what I believe? You know, is it possible for humans to to break out of arbitrariness in their claims?

Or can we have certainty and if you can have certainty in what you're saying bill? I just want you to think about how can

I demonstrate the certainty of my truth claim? How can I how can I demonstrate the certainty of the answers that I'm giving as we go about tackling different questions?

You know, can we be certain or is that just Bill's opinion? I mean if it's just Bill's and Zach's opinion or in Desi's opinion, you know

Is there any way of coming to some conclusion now? We believe that you can that the only foundation to stand on is the

Word of God But I would ask you to think about that and we'll go from there. That's not good Yeah I wish we had more time.

Yeah We're getting long but we'll thank you for inviting me on okay, man

Yeah, and don't forget to watch that Don't forget to watch that 180 movie when you get a chance It's 30 minutes and then make sure you message with Zach so we can send you a thank -you gift.

Oh, yeah Oh, yeah, I was just about to say I'm gonna we're gonna get off in a little bit and then I'll send you a message Just make sure you send me that I was talking about.

Does that sound good? Oh, yeah Yeah, I thought I still gotta set stuff up for that. But yeah, if you want to send me the link to that movie

We're talking about. Okay, I'll do that All right All right, well that was interesting yeah, yeah

Yeah, I think we went into a lot of different areas and a lot of Claims were made that we didn't do didn't exactly stop and look at yeah

But I think just asking him how he can account for anything anything that he's saying is because what's got to be brought up Yeah, because again, it's just Subjective bias, you know, yeah, why why should we take my word or your word or Bill's word or anybody?

Buddy's word for you know Why should we believe that it's true or it's a demonstrable claim if there's no foundation for that, right?

And it just it really highlighted to me of why the gospel is paramount when dealing with abortion

You know, it's so it is Foundational I remember when I first got into this fight.

I started going out to the clinics I had a friend tell me you know you you want to leave

Jesus out of the argument because that's just gonna turn people off You want to you want to appeal to logic and science?

You don't want to you know, give them Jesus later, but you can't Yeah, because and that's what people want us to do.

Yeah pastor Jeff and pastor Luke They've said I mean, there's no neutral ground right and people want to say well,

I I don't believe in the scriptures I don't believe that they're God's Word Yeah And so, you know what?

I'm gonna appeal to science or I'm gonna appeal to something other but what I was trying to get and maybe I didn't do It well enough is that if the scriptures are not your foundation your objective standard of truth an objective standard of truth

Then I was trying to say now what is right and I thought you did that Well, he just he can't answer because none of us can yeah, we'll let him

We'll let him see if he's actually said at the end of the conversation that he can't answer, right? So that would be really what we were focusing in on because if you don't have an objective standard for truth

Then why would I take your word over? ABC right people persons words are

I can't talk right now. Why would I take anybody's word? I mean, it would just be all conjecture. Yeah, it's just prejudicial conjecture based upon who we are experiences, but it doesn't amount to anything again

That's why we have the surety of God's Word that we can say, you know life begins when God says it begins It's a very simple answer

Abortion is murder because God says it's murder, right? He's the one that designed everything He's the determiner of truth truth

That's if it's again if truth doesn't find its foundation or doesn't find its source in God alone

That's what Jesus is I am the truth if then there is no truth Because you can't point to it and I would ask people listening to this if you have an explanation of truth

Outside of it. Can it be an objective standard of truth? I just don't believe it's that's what I was saying

I don't he can't have an objective right heard of truth, but I'm truly and I was listening to this. Yeah I mean that respectfully.

Yeah, and and I really appreciated Just you know that he was calm and everything and just the things he was saying.

I'm like there he is borrowing Biblical worldview. I mean we just do it. I'm not just saying bill, but we all do it

Oh, absolutely, you know because we're made in the image of God and Bill's made in the image of God and he knows You know, it's wrong, you know

There's good and evil and it's it's wrong to you know If he brings up quality of life and and I found it interesting that he he thought that it was wrong to kill a baby

Right before they're born. You're right. You know, yeah, we can't escape God's we can't we can't escape being made in the image of God You're saying that's pastor

Jeff says, you know, we believe the image of God What are even in our own profession of not believing in him because whenever we make a truth can't claim a moral claim

Whenever we use the laws of logic to determine You know what's logical or not

We're borrowing from the Christian worldview right because it's only the God of the

Bible that can be the foundation for those or it's only in his character profile

That we find the preconditions of intelligibility. You see what I mean? Yeah, we account for our truth claims

We account for the morality that we express because God is the one that is the source of all that It's immoral because he says so it's moral because he says so right now

I would say if God is not that foundation, then it's just my belief that I came here from natural processes and that Cannot be a tenable

Foundation for anything, right? Okay. So well, we're done. Yeah, just just to wrap it up, you know

Come back to coronavirus. So just think about I remember when this all started happening I go into the grocery store and you can just see the despair on people's faces

But imagine what you would be feeling right now if you really thought I am just the the result of random processes you know you would be in such despair because something like What's to say what's bad with the virus coming and wiping out the entire population then you know?

These are the things that we have to deal with on a daily basis of worldview. And why does any of this matter?

Why does abortion matter? Why is coronavirus matter? Why does anything matter? Well, we just have to go back to the

Word of God and what he who he is who God is and who we are You know exactly because there's no hope without that like right, you know, there was

I don't know if you saw it There's a guy on Facebook named Jake and a lady. I think she jumped off the

Coronado Bridge, you know But why not? I mean without God You know creating us for his own purpose and pleasure.

There is no hope. There's no peace It's just like Carl Sagan. He says we're just a small little dot in this massive universe with ultimately no significance

Whatsoever, but we know that we're not we know we have we love and we aspire We have all these things that if we had just come from and here's what there isn't a kicker

To say that we have just come from chance process is an impossibility. Yeah, it's a stupid.

It's a nonsensical It's so absurd and that's what you get when you abandon the God of the scriptures, right?

You are mounted you amount to absurdity you enter into the land of absurdity and you again have no accounting for the things that you say you always have to be

Borrowing from the Christian worldview to make sense of anything because outside of it you can't make sense of anything All right.

Okay. I know we said a lot. This is a long episode We didn't want it to go too long, but we're looking forward to talking to Bill again

Bill. You're a great guest We appreciate you being on we again We're praying for you that God would gift you repentance gift you faith and you would come into the fold

That's what we want for you the most because we love you and we care about you But we we're gonna get out of here and we'll see what we'll do

Next time on the show. We're so thankful that you were listening to us Let us know how you like it because we're just starting out. Yeah fumbling our way through these things