Evening of Eschatology part 4, Covenant Reformed Baptist Church, Sunday School

The Beast, Nero, and the Timing of Revelation 20

He's doing violence, but let's back up to verse. We have to back up to verse 4 if I could come galloping in with some literalism here. That's my job as a post-millennialist. The the beast these people who are beheaded in verse 4 are beheaded by the beast.

The the beast is a seven-headed Beast. The seven heads are seven hills are the seven heads are also seven kings. Five five were. Yep alright. So this the beast that's the head of the beast that's reigning that this is talking about is Nero right.

You start with Julius Augustus. Yes.

I would argue that this is a typological use of the world power at the time and That that it's gonna be that way that pattern is gonna follow all through churches now.

I agree that the pattern follows all through church history, but it happens that Nero persecuted the church from 8064 to.

8068 but your view demands that this book be written before 8070 Which is a very difficult case to make in view of the external evidence.

It's easier than you think but the point is this if you want to believe that it's easy. But we don't have time for the point. The point is that Nero. Who occupied the the right place on the number of heads of the beast?

Persecuted the Saints of God for 42 months and and this was 64 to 68 was 42 months. He persecuted the church for 42 months. The beheaded in this on your system. You're having to press the the literal 1 ,000 years, but you're not pressing the beast or the ones beheaded by the beast.

I'm saying that that the beasts opposition to believers and his beheading of them is Typical of the way the the wicked world powers Persecute the church whether they behead us or not. Let's continue. So.

You can you can you can respond to all the arguments just get the whole. Yeah, okay.

So you've got it. You've got a you've got these people who are physically killed and then when Christ comes they're brought to physical life. That's what the resident the first resurrection refers to physical life after life after death after the intermediate state.

They reign with Christ for a thousand years. That's the first resurrection. Verse 6 blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection over such the second death has no power but they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

And then verse 7 When the thousand years are ended Satan will be released from his prison and then he comes out he deceives the nation's. They make war on Christ. Christ puts down the rebellion then the great white throne is set up.

So I think you have a sequence here of a resurrection. Thousand years of bliss reigning with Christ on earth and then at the end of the thousand years Satan is let out of that that pit and he's loosed from those chains.

And and so like what we saw in Revelation 9 1 happens again. Somebody opens the the shaft of the bottomless pit lets him go and then he does this work. There's a final rebellion. It's ended and then the great white throne is set up and then after the judgment We enter into the new heavens and the new earth in Revelation 21 22.

Satan's Binding, the Nations, and the Millennium as Recapitulation

And now let me explain why I think that's wrong. My understanding you used the word with respect to Satan's incarceration in the abyss totally. You're universalizing what John explicitly restricts. He says that with regard to Satan's capacity during the thousand years to deceive the nation's.

He is totally restrained and I agree with that. But with regard to all of his other activities Revelation 13 7. And to conquer them and authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation.

But you don't believe that 42 months. Let me finish. You don't believe that means that Satan can prevent the gospel from going to the nations and bringing conversions. But I believe that we agree one through three is describing something different, but it's then the gospel going to the nation.

Well, then we'd have to go back into Acts 26. We'd go back into Colossians 2. We could go back in other texts, but in the gym, let me finish. Let me finish, please finish. Thank you order order. In the courtroom, that's precisely what what Jesus told what Paul Testified when he said that Christ has commissioned me to turn the nation's from the darkness of Satan to the light of God's kingdom.

During the time of this present inter Advent age Satan cannot prevent the gospel from succeeding and bringing souls Globally to faith in Christ. He can persecute the church. He can blind the minds of unbelievers who are recalcitrant in their rejection of Christ in the non-elect he can Tempt he can swallow up if we give him ground.

But when it comes to deceiving the nations with regard to the gospel and to orchestrating this global cosmic Resistance to the Church of Christ. He is prevented thoroughly and totally now. Let me finish I get because you had all the other statements you made.

Let me finish. I agree with that. Okay secondly. It says he said I saw the souls of those who've been beheaded for the testimony Jesus the Word of God as I said in Revelation 6 those are identified as those in the intermediate state.

It's also interesting that in Revelation 2 11 Jesus says to the church at Smyrna be faithful unto death. He's talking about their martyrdom Under the authority of the beast and I will give you the crown of life.

You're gonna die physically. You're gonna come to life and the second death will have no power over you precisely what we are told here. They are martyred physically. They come to life in that in the intermediate state and the second death has no authority over them.

Now one more thing real quickly. You said you appeal to Anastasis and the concept of resurrection and you said everywhere it refers to physical bodily resurrection. I agree with you. I'll go on record saying that's the single strongest argument for pre-millennialism, but it's not persuasive for this reason you're making a case that We have to take the word Anastasis in the way it is used consistently outside the book of Revelation, by the way, this is the only place it's used in Revelation.

Only here nowhere else. Why do you pre-millennialists conveniently ignore the word thrones? Which is used 47 times in Revelation 40 of which are relevant sometimes refers to the throne of Satan or the throne of the beast.

Every single time without exception thrones are heavenly. They are never on the earth. That's also the case with every single use of thrones outside the book of Revelation. Then finally on the issue of the first resurrection.

I admit I concede to you Jim. Obviously, I mean it's easy to prove NT Wright was correct. Anastasis use refers to physical resurrection outside the book of Revelation. This is its only occurrence inside the book of Revelation.

But notice if you would this is the only place in the entire New Testament where it's called the first Resurrection and it's contrary and we have here in Revelation 20 and 21. We have descriptions of what is first and old.

Pertaining to the present transient order of things and then we also have reference especially kind of chapter 21 to that Which is second and new which is a reference to the eternal permanent consummate state of things.

So I think it's clear as you read the sequentially through this chap this passage he's not describing a Resurrection that is then followed by the same kind of resurrection a first and a second. He's Contrasting the resurrections in the same way that he contrasts the first With the new and the old with that which is second.

And so the point is there is a first resurrection that is a coming-to-life in the intermediate state. It's called first the only place where it is indicating. We're dealing with something very unique here.

The millennial reign transpires throughout the whole course of this present age. Saints are reigning with Christ in the intermediate state. He identifies them who they are at the second coming of Christ.

The rest of the dead are raised. That's a physical resurrection of unbelievers at which time they are judged and cast into the lake of fire as Matthew Indicates as Revelation indicates as well. Can I reply?

Revelation 13, the Beast, and the Limits of Satanic Deception

Sure okay, your view demands what's happening in Revelation 13 5 through 8 is precisely that the Beast is deceiving the nation's and Verse 7 of Revelation 13 says that authority was given to the Beast over every tribe and people and language and nation.

So your view demands regard to what define that they're worshiping the Beast there. They're worshiping. So because of this thing nobody's coming in faith in Christ in the present age. No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying well, then no, okay. I'm saying that What Revelation 21 through 3 says isn't happening is happening in Revelation 13 5 through 7. He is deceiving the nation's that that's that's one thing I want to say and then I want to respond to something that does Doug said earlier and that you kind of hinted at or Are hinting at when you talk about this one passage and and this one reference to the thousand years.

And I just want to ask some questions. So how many texts in the Old Testament explicitly name the New Covenant. There's one Jeremiah 31. It's the only place where that phrase is used. I think how many texts in the Old Testament explicitly refer to the future royal?

Ruler as a Messiah. There's one that's undisputed Daniel 925. How many texts in the Old Testament say that the seed of the woman is going to crush the head of the serpent? There's one Genesis 3 15 and and I think I would want to ask Doug how many texts in the whole Bible say we should baptize?

Babies and and. Yeah, so so everyone see my restraint so I don't. I don't think that the fact that this one passage is Problematic for us. Oh, I don't have it. I have I agree totally with everything you just said.

The fact that this is one passage that talks of them. I'm happy with it. I think it's talking about the intermediate state. So I have no problem in saying there's one passage that's describing a thousand years.

I believe that but what real quickly here one more thing. I do have a question as well. You say that here in beginning in Revelation 20 verses 1 through 3 at the second coming of Christ after Christ has returned the devil Can no longer deceive the nations and he's in the abyss so that won't happen.

I just want to know where the heck these nations came from because according to your reading of Revelation 19 The flesh of Kings captains mighty men horses riders flesh of all men both free and slaves small and great are consumed and they are thrown the beast of false product thrown in the lake of fire and the rest the rest of who the rest of the nations who were Gathered in this battle were slain by the sword.

The nations that you say Satan is now having to be Incarcerated so that he can't deceive have all been killed at the time of the second coming of Christ. There are no nations left that he can't deceive and I would say evidently it's not comprehensive and and I would also.

Why not just take them out of a plain literal meaning. Observe that at the end of Revelation 19 the beast and the false prophet Thanks for reminding me of this are thrown into the lake of fire. That's in verse 20 of Revelation 19 and then down in Revelation chapter 20 verse 10 The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet Were already and so it seems like there's one defeat and then there's this inner Intervening period and then there's a defeat of the dragon and he's thrown in.

That can't be the case. Because what we have race between Revelation 19 and 20 are parallel accounts of the same span of time namely the Church Age or the Millennial Kingdom. And the fact of the matter is you'll notice in there in Revelation 20 10 the devil who had to see them was thrown into the lake Of fire and sulfur where literally this is what it says and literally we're also the beast and the false prophet.

Nothing. And It makes far better sense to supply not where the beast and the false prophet are. But where the beast and the false prophet were thrown directly taken from Revelation chapter 19. Verse 20 you're making my case.

No, the point is Revelation 19 describes the the end of human history what's called the Battle of Armageddon. The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20 recapitulates to describe the whole present age again the consummation of which is Satan is now thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet also were thrown.

And I think that takes different Symbols and flattens them out so that they don't flatten them out. It's recapitulates parallelism and the ellipsis here that does not supply a verb is far better supplied from 1920 than it is just saying where they are like one of the.

Tag one other thing on this and this is from within the text that you went through when you're done.

I'm gonna do some something. All right.

In in Revelation 20, I believe Jim you're the difficulty that I have with what you're saying. Is that you have a very specific binding of Satan a very specific thousand years. John has that but yeah. So yeah, John's got some other stuff coming up to a Very specific state in a very specific thousand years.

It's a historical period the history is historicity of it is being affirmed at a very specific point in time but then in order to populate this very specific millennium you appeal to a generic martyrs martyred by a generic beast.

Throughout all we read about it in Revelation 13.

Well the the beast that we have in Revelation this goes back to what I said at the beginning of the book These things are soon to happen. It's right on top of you. It's at the door. Daniel is told. Daniel is told for example to seal up the words of the prophecy because the time is not yet and the events were.

The events were 400 years, okay, so if these are the people martyred under Nero.

The point is that in Revelation in Revelation He's told don't seal the words because that it's right on top of us. Don't seal the words because it's right on top of us. And yet here We are 2 ,000 years out Daniel is told to seal the words of the prophecy.

Because it's it's a while yet, and that's just and the fulfillment of that was 400 years later. I take that the book of Revelation as Right on top of the first century church. It's at hand. It's near it's now and It was it was immediate.

Nero the beast the persecuting beast all of this was alive. Yet for the recipients of the letter. So when John says here the number of the beast is this and he says this is for the guy who has wisdom John knows who it is.

All right, John knows who it is and he expects some sharp sophomore in college to be up late that night figuring it out. Okay, let him who has wisdom figure this out. John knows who it is. He expects some of his first century readers to figure it out.

And I can't imagine Demetrius in Ephesus figuring it out saying who the heck is Henry Kissinger?

All right, nobody's arguing that right I.

Can't I can't see someone in the first century saying Nero. This is the number of the beast is six six six Nero beast persecuting. I believe that the beast and the martyrs are very specific in history and you've got a very specific millennium at the end of history.

But you have to make the martyrs and the beheading and the process that populates the Saints for that Generic and I think that you should do one thing or the other through the text and and I.

Would disagree with what you're saying? I'm doing I just want to make one more comment and I just and I'm gonna leave it there and I love Jim too, but when I read Revelation 19 and And the birds of the heavens are said come gather for the great supper of God.

This is verse 18 to eat the flesh of kings flesh of captains flesh of mighty men flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of All men both free and slave both small and great. And then it says the beast and the false prophet are are killed.

Who had done the signs? Sons by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped its image. You'd think wow. That's just about everybody in it. And if that's not enough verse 21 and the rest Were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse.

Jesus at a second coming so I'm saying if you can extract out of that kind of rather extensive exhaustive slaughter of all unbelievers at the second coming of Christ. This remnant who survived to enter into the Millennium because you got to have them to propagate to constitute the nation's and so on.

III don't have any. I have nothing more to say. I don't know what I could say to that I don't know how. I don't know how you I don't know how you have Satan deceiving nations that all just got slaughtered.

They don't exist. They're killed by the second coming of Christ.

And you can't conceive of any way.

Unbelievers. Could you read Revelation 19 if you can conceive of it. You convince me. And then I'll repent. What about babies? We baptized him. I think. I think Sam we could. We could just say there the rest of those who were present at that moment.

The rest who were There when they're on the globe on the earth. Who were. That's the way you're reading it. But yeah, that's why I'm reading it. So I just say you know. We could and I would say Jim I agree if you can read it differently and in good conscience.

Say that there are therefore Nations left over of unbelievers and natural unglorified bodies that enter this purported millennial kingdom.

Then I just say god bless you and will you you say that the biggest problem for our millennialism is the meaning of anastasis.

In verse six is it? Yeah, it's consistent and I would you say that getting.

Natural bodies and unbelievers into the Millennium is the biggest problem for pre-millennials. And probably so yes. What's the biggest problem for post-millennialism? Baptizing babies.

I Would say I alluded to the biggest but I think the biggest problem for post-millennialists is grabbing too soon is.

Triumphant. And no, I don't mean the problem if you believe it what to do it. I mean whether it's true or not textual the.

Actually, the biggest problem I have is is in harmonizing first and second Thessalonians.

That would be there but so first Thessalonians 4 13 you take to be the second coming of. Yes, correct.

And but but I also take the man of the man of sin the man of lawlessness as a Roman as the Roman Emperor. And I and I do and I don't I don't have a way of and he's already arisen and the rebellion has already happened.

Well, like I said, there's a problem. That's your problem. No.

Practical Implications of the Millennial Views

Okay. That's for another night, I think would be helpful to take a few minutes even though our time is up and And go back where we started and ask about the practical implications of these three views.

You you were all very animated more than I expected you to be. I thought this was. Didn't think you expect to feel as strongly but as you do so. That's energizing to me. I love it. That's why I like you guys a lot because you care about the Bible and care about truth even even this one.

So now here's here's the issue. You said let's start here and then take me five minutes on this. Our marching orders from Matthew 28 1920. He has all authority in heaven and on earth right now. Whatever Satan whatever freedom he has he has Jesus has all authority.

He says go make disciples of all the nations. How. Do your views just say something positive about why we can work together with these use and Why the other view if you think this doesn't undermine doing what we're called to do my mind first when I read post-millennialism.

I fret Over over the first problem you said namely that it will become Dominion theonomy. Take over with carnal means right you refresh me by Insisting it will be spiritual means we worship and the right worshiping of God and when I read your Strategies for conquering the world they feel just like mine.

Right, even though I don't expect the world to be conquered in the same way you do so that my pattern of life and ministry Doesn't pick up the sword and you're not picking up the sword. It's unclear to me.

Like we talked in the panel about when the Christian Congress might pick up the sword. But that's not where you are and you don't want to think that way it sounds to me, right? So that would be one example of what I'm fishing for is that I hear his strategies in the triumphant spread of the gospel.

Being exercised in ways very much like the way I live my life.

What more like that? Can we say how to pre and ah I want to make what you said more explicit that I that it's very comforting that you say We conquer the same way Jesus did in a death and resurrection kind of conquering, right?

So I appreciate that very much and You and I have agreed a lot tonight and and and we I think we've agreed on a lot of interpretive matters and and and I think that we would both say that The gospel is going to advance and God is going to prosper the preaching of the gospel.

I think we would all say that and so I think we can all affirm those things. Yeah, I think in terms of I'm not trying to align up against Doug here, but it's just in terms of how it affects Our expectations for the future and how the church lives out its life that Jim and I would probably be in more agreement.

We're gonna suffer until the end. Yeah. But suffering I think suffering is actually going to increase intensify and spread and I think the way the church Conquers is Revelation 12 11 12 11 they conquered Satan the enemy the beast.

By the word of their testimony the blood of the lamb the word of their testimony by not loving their lives to death. They died physically and by dying physically under the oppressive power of Satan the beast they win.

That's the victory that is secured by the church in this age and I think Jim and I would agree that there is going to be this increase of Oppression and persecution of the church that Is not going to abate until the second coming of Jesus and I think Doug would say He believes he has confidence that through the power of the Holy Spirit the spread of the gospel.

There will be a slow and progressive but yet decisive and at some point visible manifestation of a more widespread victory that can be more Cultural governmental political economic in nature. I would say I don't see that in Scripture.

He does and I know the verses he uses in the Old Testament primarily in the Psalms, right? They're tough to answer. He's he's got a good point. I wish I got a millennium. Yeah. But I wish to defend those texts and tomorrow and in the coming year.

We will all be we for will all be Preaching the gospel in public sending missionaries to the nation's Saying hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come and meaning a little bit different same thing at the center and then brought it out differently and We will be willing to lay down our lives that people might see the supreme glory of Jesus Christ.

The only way they can come to know him is I mean come to be saved is by Believing in him the nation's need to hear the gospel all that's true. Is that correct? Give a closing minute exhortation to the watchers of this About where to go from here because some people are gonna say I just give up.

These guys are so smart and they've got doctorates and they're they cannot agree on the interpretation of the first six verses of Revelation 20 so say something by we have guidance to the frustrated layman right now who would like to have some sense of what's coming at him and He doesn't feel like he's nearly as competent at use guys.

You guys are Just a minute or two each as we close about something encouraging and helpful for the watchers.

You've exalted above all things. Oh Lord your name and your word. So I would say just keep reading the Bible worshipfully keep asking the Lord to give you insight into the text and if there seems to be a meaning that is Natural and it seems to fit the terms of the book believe it.

So just keep reading the Bible for yourself. And and if you've got if you've got the Bible you have an Archimedean point on which to stand and a lever and a place to lodge that thing and you can move scholarly opinions in your own Ability to arbitrate them.

If you've got your arms around texts, I would say keep the gospel.

Central always keep the gospel central the death burial resurrection of Christ our imitation of him and following that As we interpret scripture as we lay down our lives for others as we preach the gospel keep the gospel always and everywhere central and know that.

This all of this that these disagreements the fact that the church for 2 ,000 years hasn't has only come to one Central eschatological agreement and that's Jesus Christ will come again to judge the quick and the dead.

That's that's as far as the church has gotten that the the the church broadly has gotten that far. And when we look at the world and how the gospel is progressing through the world and I look at South America and Africa being overrun by Premillennialists, I think it's the coolest thing in the world.

That's that's just the kind of thing that God would do. I Have people believe the Bible. Yeah, so if we say look what what's happened the church I think is well established far far more deeply rooted and established in the world today than it was 1 ,500 years ago 2 ,000 years ago and the vast majority of the sacrifices and the The the missionary efforts and the martyrdoms the vast majority of people who did that did it Through love of the same Jesus, but with a different eschatology than mine and so, you know good good grief keep keep a sense of proportion keep the Keep the gospel central and keep a sense of proportion and let every man be fully convinced in his own mind.

Well, certainly I'd echo both of those. I don't think I can add anything to them. I would simply say to people who are watching this who probably Some of them are tempted to say as you said John goodness I'll never understand that and and if that's what studying the Bible does I'm just I'm gonna avoid it and I would say please don't do that.

What we did tonight. What we did tonight was really good this is healthy I Make now I'm really I'm a sick sort of guy. I love this, you know. Some people some other people out here were very nervous and they were sitting on edge and they think Jim and I don't love each other and I Love this because he's refining my thinking.

Doug's refining my thinking I might go back and look again. And I hope I've given them some thoughts as well. I and I think I think God is honored when we take this book seriously enough to do this. That we care about truth.

We believe that there is objective real truth here about what God is doing in history and He says wow those those they care enough about my word. They believe it is inerrant and infallible enough that they're that they're willing to go toe-to-toe with each other in the love of Christ.

To try to arrive at some understanding if in the final analysis Jim's right that won't affect my relationship with Jesus one bit and I won't be disappointed. I'll be Saddened that I misled people through my teaching gift if Doug turns out to be right and I'm wrong I won't be disappointed.

I kind of hope he's right by the way, just you know, but between up If he turns out to be right. Again, my regret will be that I would have used the gift God has given me to mislead people which is a weighty thing James 3 we all have to take into consideration.

But in order to become a better teacher, I need these guys. I need all of you. I need the whole body of Christ to Call me back to the text force me to look at things in a new way. So I think that's what I take away from it.

I Think that we will.

Not ask you What should people read but maybe get that information. And when this goes onto the web, we'll put it up some some readings in pre post. For people who want to follow on thank you.

Thank you all so much for your willingness to thank you this taking the risk of posting this. Let's pray and Go father in heaven.

We are deeply thankful for the Bible. We're sorry if if we're if we're knuckleheaded about its plain meaning. I'm sure I am in numerous places. And we ask for light if any sin is an obstacle to any of us seeing what's really there.

Grant that that sin would be conquered. Humble us under your mighty word and help us to maintain a sense of proportion. We are thrilled that You Lord Jesus are Coming. That you will conquer one day all evil.

That you will set all things Right. That you will banish all ungodliness and unrighteousness out of the universe. And you will grant that Righteousness and peace will reign forever and ever. And we will shine like the Sun in the Kingdom of our Father.

We say Hasten the day O Christ and to that end keep us Faithful. I pray through Christ Amen.