LGBT and #MeToo Protest at Liberty University

Christian Love, Social Justice, and the Liberty University Protest

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. I've got a really exciting episode for you today because we're going to take some of the ideas that I talk about in this room into the real world.

We're going to hit the streets. But before I get to that, two important announcements. Number one, Shepard's Conference is going on right now in California. There was a really important panel discussion yesterday that took place on social justice.

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Lincoln Duncan, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, Sinclair Ferguson, all part of this discussion. Really eye-opening, revealing, important things were said, perhaps monumental things.

You can't find the video because it was taken down. All the other videos, as far as I know, are up. But this video was only available for a limited amount of time before it was taken down. I was up in the wee hours of the morning transcribing parts of it to bring it to you.

If you go to worldviewconversation .com, that's worldviewconversation .com, you can check out my analysis. But more than that, you can actually see some of the key statements that were made, that I think were key, in this discussion.

And boy, you're not going to want to miss that. It won't take you long. It's a blog post, it's not a video, so you can get through it. But worldviewconversation .com, name of the blog is What Happened at Wednesday's Social Justice Q &A at the Shepard's Conference.

Should be the second blog down right after this video. This should be the first one on the website. So post it on the 7th. So go check that out. Second quick advertisement, announcement, Monday there's going to be a live video chat with a few other Christian podcasters and myself.

And I don't know if there will be an interactive element, there probably will be. But I don't want to say who yet, but we're going to be talking about social justice. And I don't think it's going to be a debate, more a think tank type thing.

But you don't want to miss that. I will have information posted soon, as soon as I get it, on Facebook, GabMinds, Twitter, however you're following me on social media. So you're going to want to check that out.

On to the fun stuff. So I attended a protest yesterday at, I believe, the largest Christian university in the world, Liberty University. And the protest was put on by none other than the Me Too and LGBTQ groups on campus.

Now I don't know if these are officially sponsored by the campus, but there is a presence there of both these movements. And what was essentially going on was CPAC happened last week, which is a political action conference.

Donald Trump Jr. came and Jerry Falwell Jr. and two comments were made that upset both groups. First comment, a Me Too joke was made, which insinuated that the Me Too movement, kind of the witch hunt element of the Me Too movement, is not to be taken seriously.

Well, this was interpreted as, you don't care about people who are abused, who are rape victims. And I think either Donald Trump Jr. or Jerry Falwell Jr. made this comment. The other one was an insinuation that a child being raised doesn't necessarily need to pick their own gender, have a choice in that.

Parents can choose that. And of course, I thought that was just a Christian fundamental principle, but apparently not to the LGBTQ movement. And by the way, LGBTQ I'm not sure, how are the bisexuals offended by that?

I don't understand how all these folks hang together unless the thing that binds them is they just hate biblical morality. But this was the poster that went out. I downloaded it from a local paper this morning, but it was first posted on Facebook that I saw.

I've since then found out that the person who organized it, which by the way, I interviewed, and you're going to see a video clip of me interviewing this person, but her name is Addison Garner. She posted it on her Twitter, so I don't know if she wrote it, or I don't assume so.

But I'm not going to read through it. I'll just make a couple comments. If you want to read it, you can pause the screen and check it out. But a couple things about this. Number one, there's really no grace given to Jerry Falwell Jr. or Donald Trump Jr.

They are pretty much raked over the coals for the things that they said. So all this wanting to support students and tolerance, love, no tolerance given to them, obviously. So a judgmental tone. The other thing is that they quote scripture.

Now this is a Christian campus, so they quote the verse, I'm looking for it now, but it says we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And there we go. And so the insinuation is that Jerry Falwell Jr. and Donald Trump Jr. are somehow challenging this premise, I guess, when it comes to transgender people or women, that they're not fearfully and wonderfully made.

This is a straw man. This is shadow boxing. No one's saying this, but that's used. And then I think the last paragraph here is kind of the key. We believe our school should set an example for the world by offering unconditional love, inclusion, and acceptance to everyone.

Unless your name is Jerry Falwell Jr., who's the president, I guess. But unconditional love. This is the buzzword, and this is where I actually think something very significant has taken place. And I noticed this when I went out and talked to the protesters.

The concept of love just doesn't seem to be there anymore. The Christian concept of love. Love is tolerance now. Love is just tolerating the perversion that's in front of you. And that's of course not love.

There is an element to love that, love is not tolerance, but there can be an element to love that has a tolerating element to it. I guess that's the best way I can really say it. Love is, of course, biblically understood, is self-sacrifice.

Jesus obviously exemplified it. And it tells the truth. You can't separate the two of them. So this is the poster that goes out there. Now, I go out to campus, and this is what I see when I arrive somewhere towards the I'm just maybe an hour into this.

You can see LGBTQ lives matter. Very interesting. I've made this point before, many have. Social justice comes in waves, and if the first wave is race, and if black lives matter, they're going to use the same rhetoric to push, in this case, LGBTQ.

So that's what I first saw when I arrived. And I did notice there were some protesters who were being more the boisterous kind, if you will, those holding the flag especially. I did start to engage them at one point, and then actually the person who was running the event came and talked to me, not because I was starting to engage them, but just saying hi to everyone, and I asked her if she would do an interview, and she was very gracious to let me do that, which you'll see in a couple minutes.

So I did not go toe-to-toe with the most loud, obnoxious elements in the group, but I did watch them for a little bit, and definitely pro-homosexuality, pro-transgenderism. I did have the privilege of talking for about 40 minutes with someone who was holding a sign, but they were more from the Me Too side of it, and they were there in their own words also to support those who struggle, in their words, with transgenderism, or gender dysphoria, I guess is the buzzword now, and I think that's what they said.

So I talked to them for about 40 minutes, and if you are a supporter of mine on Patreon, you can see that full 40 minutes, because I'm going to give you the key. If you are not a supporter, well, you're going to have to make do with the clip I'm about to give you, which is about four minutes.

So if you want an extra 36 minutes, then become a supporter on Patreon. There's my little plug. How was that? I don't know. But I think this is a significant clip that I'm giving you, and I'm just going to roll the tape, I guess, and then give you some comments on it.

Pragmatism, Love, and the Christian Response to Sin

So without further ado, here we go. So let's say, hypothetically, there was a group of students here that said, you know what, we love homosexuals, we love transgender people, we want to show them hope.

So we're going to get signs that say, repent of your sin, there is hope in the Lord, talk to us, we can help you, we'd love to meet with you, but turn from your sin. Well, we're talking pragmatism then.

So for pragmatic reasons, you're saying that you wouldn't like to do that, but you would agree with their message, though, even if you don't like the tactic, you would agree.

With that message? I would agree with the message, I just don't think that's very effective, and I don't think that's very effective. So you wouldn't stand with them?

No. But you would stand with people who are advocating right now that homosexuality is okay and not a sin? That's not for me to say. Well, because you're doing it. Well, I'm doing it, so. But you think homosexuality is a sin, though, so, I don't know, I hope you think about that.

I'll think about that, yeah. Because it sounds like, from what you're saying, you actually, even though you don't like the tactics, you actually agree with the message of, there is hope in the cross and you can turn from this.

And I don't, and I think that when it comes to the whole message, though, that I'm trying to say, and I totally get what you're saying about what everything is looking like and everything. I think the whole message needs to be that everybody in this community needs to be shown love in a Christian community for anything to be a sin.

And that's my rude thing. So that's why I think I would say, you know, if you're talking about the people who are I wouldn't stand for those people, because nobody's going to pay attention to that, especially if they're not Christian.

If they are Christian, they might see that, and then what? I don't think that's effective at all. I don't think that's loving either. And so that's the only reason as to why I wouldn't stand for those people.

I would rather stand for the group like this, and then be more effective in saying, I love you, and I want you to come talk to us, and be a part of this, and then we'll talk.

I haven't wanted to quite get too deep into the transgender thing. I do believe that's sinful as well. But when they confronted sin from the beginning, John the Baptist, repent. Jesus, repent. The apostles, repent.

They didn't look at the pragmatic, like, well, how many people am I going to attract? Will people find my message hateful? I mean, 11 out of 12 of them basically died for their faith. So they, obviously people were angry at them.

Jesus was crucified. There was a lot of people that got angry at them, but they didn't look at that as a negative. They went out and they proclaimed the truth, and they lived for the few, the narrow way, those who would be saved.

I mean, even Paul at Mars Hill, you know, they're laughing at them. They call him a seed picker, which is basically a gutter sparrow. They say, who's this babbler up here? What he's talking about, a resurrection, that's ridiculous.

But it says, there were some who were convinced. And so, I don't know who the elect are. I don't know who's going to be saved. But I would proclaim the truth of God, understanding that He knows, and He's going to use that message.

Even if it's going to be offensive. And I guess that's my point, is it is. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. They're going to hate it. They're going to revile it, because they love their sin.

And that will never be a popular message.

Love as Tolerance, Agape, and the Problem of Pragmatism

So, that would be my pushback. And I agree with you on that. I think that's where we have to intervene. I think that there are more effective ways than what the apostles did. I'm not trying to say anything anti-revival.

What I'm saying is, I think that this day and age, with the LGBT community on the media, being blasted everywhere, right? Not blasted in a bad way. There needs to be, in a church community, there needs to be more, again, what I have to go back to, is more of a loving standpoint, first, and then, continuous.

I hear you. Would you look at love and equivocate that with tolerance? When you say love, are you talking about a tolerant attitude? It sounds like, okay. So, we have different ideas than of love. Because I would go back to the self-sacrificial love.

Like, I'm willing to sacrifice the agape type of love. So, I'll even sacrifice my reputation, my comfort, to come out here and tell you the truth. Like, that's part of love, in my opinion. So, I think the modern concept of tolerance being equivocated with love is this kind of like, I just kind of accept you where you're at, and I'm not going to confront those things.

And that's kind of where our conversation has been, is how to approach it. And I do think we disagree, but you've been extremely gracious, and I appreciate that. Alright, well, two things, brief things, to mention about this.

Number one, she agrees with my message as far as homosexuality being a sin. She gives lip service to it. It took a little while to get there, if you watch the full video, but she doesn't have a problem getting there.

But she's willing to stand next to someone with a rainbow flag who's promoting that message. And somehow, in the name of love, tolerance, support them in that way. Now, she is not comfortable supporting other types of sins.

I give more examples of that in other parts of the video. But she is comfortable with that. And this is really interesting to me. I think it's very telling because this idea of love has so permeated the millennial generation and those coming up behind them.

So my generation, millennial, that the greatest thing that would be offensive is hurting someone's feelings. And so standing next to someone who is advocating something you even disagree with, it's seen as a good thing as long as everyone feels good about it.

That seems to be what's going on. It was very telling, and I mentioned this in the clip I just showed, that when I brought forth what the apostles did and set that up as the example that I want to follow, she said, well, I don't agree with how the apostles did it.

Well, there's a woman who claims to be a Christian, and so I thought that was very interesting. Now, a third thing I will say, we had a very good discussion, and it ended with prayer. And I think she had some things to think about, but I think a lot of it is ignorance.

And we do need people who are going to go out there, make the case, be direct, be firm, uncompromising with truth, and be loving. Loving, though, in the sense of being patient with someone who could be ignorant.

And certainly a lot of people are, and we're dealing with that more and more, even on a Christian campus. I'm going to just mention this as well. Some of the more boisterous elements of this protest, two of them I heard say, you show me in Scripture where it says you can't be Christian and homosexual.

And this is when I was about to get involved with them, because I thought, okay, well, 1 Corinthians 6, 1 Timothy 1, Leviticus 18, and a whole understanding of the man-woman, male-female, husband-wife relationship, and the responsibilities that go with that in raising children throughout Scripture.

That's what the Bible's about. It reminds me of something that I read in a Michael Brown book years ago. It said it's like the gluten-free cookbook. You could read it, let's say, and say, well, there's not a lot of gluten in here.

That's right, because it's the gluten-free cookbook, and the Bible is the heterosexual book. That's who it's designed for. So I started to go that direction, and then the next clip that you're about to see, actually, the person I interviewed came up to me and was just introducing herself.

It was a very nice interview, I think. Addison Gardner is her name, and she is the senior class president at Liberty University. But I said, kid, we have an interview. Can I talk to you about these things?

You organize the event, and I'll ask you what's going on. She said, sure. So we did. I'm going to show you that clip, and I'm going to actually end with that clip. I'm going to give you a couple things to look for while that clip is rolling, though, just so you're watching it and viewing it in an educated or a ready, I guess, way.

Liberty University's Protest Organizer Explains the Event

Number one is I would look for arbitrariness. So she makes a statement at one point, Addison does, that someone else may have an argument that opposes mine, but because they believe their argument comes from Scripture and I believe my argument comes from Scripture, somehow it's okay.

She'll stand with that person. And I, of course, bring up, well, what if it was a racist? What if they're saying, you know, I can support my views from the Bible? And, of course, she personally did not like that, did not agree with that.

And you can see her kind of waver a little bit towards the end of the interview. But she's going into politics. She did a great job. I said she was diplomatic. She did a great job dodging, I think, some questions.

But she was very kind, and she was really on point as far as what she wanted to say. And she kept coming back to two words. She supports students. And the efforts at this protest were just to support students.

Which, of course, that's a blank book that anyone can write a chapter in because what does that even mean? Support students in what? In evil? In good? In harm? In what? So it sounds good, though. So that's what she kept coming back to.

Another thing to look for is inconsistency. So, obviously, grace is given to those who are homosexual or transgender. No grace is given to Donald Trump Jr. And I probe her a little on this, so I'm not going to belabor the point.

But you can see how I probed. Arbitrariness. Oh, I mentioned that already. So look for those two things. Arbitrariness, inconsistency. The most interesting thing, and I'm going to end on this. The most interesting thing to me is there does seem to be a postmodern element to all of this.

And that makes sense of the inconsistency and the arbitrariness. But at one point, you're going to see Addison try to make a delineation between sins of victims and sins of abusers. These categories come out.

And I've been talking a long time about social justice. Now, Addison is a libertarian, and I don't know how she feels about all the elements of the social justice movement. Generally, libertarians don't tend to, at least classically, line up with Marxist ideas.

But this category distinction between, well, there's sins of abusers, and then there's sins of victims. And the sins of victims are treated differently. They're treated more charitably. And I try to make the point, and you'll see me make it, that all sin has an element of abuse in it.

And you can see how I articulated that. But postmodernism, though, definitely seems to contribute to the arbitrariness and the inconsistency. Worldliness seems to be giving this hierarchy of sins. And I've explained before, I think, how the connection between postmodernism, in history at least, and telling the story from the bottom up, from the point of view of the victim.

Because everything's about power in the Marxist worldview. Well, postmodernism is used to speak truth to power, whatever that means. Jesus is the truth. He's the most powerful one in the universe. So I don't see...

Jesus speaks the truth all the time, right? And he is powerful. So he speaks from a position of power to the weak. But postmodernism justifies this stuff, I think. And these categories sort of come out.

I'm going to end with a clip. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you glean something from this. I am concerned about the church, about Christian education in general. This is a conservative Christian university.

As far as I know, I think this is the first time this has happened. I don't think it will be the last. I really don't. I think this stuff is ramping up. And one final observation. In hearing some of the counter... not demonstrators, but those trying to interrogate, for lack of a better word, interact with, sometimes in an aggressive... not horribly aggressive, but in a direct way, these protesters, a lot of Ben Shapiro, a lot of Christian...

Christian in name only. I think of the comedian, and his name is slipping from me right now. But he has the change my mind tables and so forth. But a lot of these conservative... sometimes they call themselves Christians.

Ben Shapiro calls himself Jewish, traditional Jewish. But these influences I could see in the counter-arguments that were being given. Where are the rooted in, the word, brave, willing to speak the truth Christians?

Men who are willing to go out there and stand up for truth. Stephen Crowder, that was the guy. So why is it the Stephen Crowders and the Ben Shapiros are the ones that have all the videos of them interacting with people that are advocating Marxism or these anti-Christian ideas.

So something to ponder. We do need more of that. I'm going to end on the clip though. Hopefully you enjoy it, and I'll see you next time. All right, so again, we already introduced ourselves. I'm John Addison, right?

Addison, since it's recording now, why don't you explain to me what you were just telling me, what your position is on campus, and then a little bit about the event that just happened, because you said you were involved in organizing that and what the intent was.

Yeah, so my role as senior class president is to represent the senior class, whether that's to administration, whether that's to the student body president, whether that's to the House of Delegates where we have student government.

Basically, I represent, I'm supposed to embody the senior class and speak on behalf of them.

Okay, and so you were involved in planning the event. Now, is there an official name for what just took place outside?

My aspect of it was the Me Too demonstration. So LU for Me Too is the group that I head up, and any sign that you saw out there with LU for Me Too on it is from my group.

That would be your group. Okay, so the rainbow flags and the pro-homosexual group, that's not affiliated with the Me Too group? Are they separate? I just want to understand.

So the Me Too group serves to assist students that have been through issues of sexual assault with the Me Too movement. So while some people may be in the Me Too group and also support other groups, the Me Too itself exists for sexual assault survivors.

Okay, because the advertisement that was sent to me, the reason that I came out to check it out today was the flyer seemed like there was two different groups that had come out. So one was the Me Too group, which you just talked about, and then the other one was an LGBTQ group of some kind.

Kind of, yes. So basically, overall the event is a show of support. So LU for Me Too is out here to support the Me Too movement and say these jokes were made, but we support you. It's not a laughing matter on campus.

And then people that are involved in LGBT groups saw it similarly in that their community was slighted, and part of their community was slighted, rather, and that they wanted to also show up and support.

So when I put the information about the Me Too site in our LU for Me Too chat with people that are interested, a lot of them, well, not a lot, some of the people overlap. So they also say, hey, these people were hurt too.

I want to support them. So we sat down about it. Because we didn't want to conflate two issues that should be separate, should have their own areas, we decided to put this under We the Students. So if you support LU for Me Too, you can come out here, hold an LU for Me Too sign.

If you support other people that you feel have been hurt, you can also come out and support them. And the umbrella statement of this demonstration is Liberty students deserve love, and they deserve respect.

And regardless of where you fall on some of these issues, we can all agree as students that we want love and respect shown to each other.

Now, I was trying to sort of work my way to the unifying features. You're saying love and respect would be the message you want to get across. And this is two basic groups of people, the Me Too and the LGBT group, coming together to say love and respect.

But in the poster I saw, or the flyer, it was against statements that had been made when Donald Trump Jr. was on campus speaking with Jerry Falwell Jr. And what I had heard when I was out there was that there was a statement made about raising a child to be a particular gender.

Am I tracking right so far that this was against that, condemning that statement and saying that that wasn't loving or respectful?

So those students that came out because of that, they came out, again, with the same intention of showing that students love and support. Those statements are what they felt was a slight against the transgender community.

It was broader than that, but I can't speak exactly on what was said because my niche is Me Too, that's where all my energy is. So I can't speak as well on that side.

So I want to circle back to that, but why don't you speak about your motivation, even your personal motivation, for why to have an event like this with the flags and the signs and everything else.

Definitely. So LU for Me Too was founded last semester when Candace Owens came to speak at convocation. Candace Owens is known for being an outspoken opponent of the Me Too movement and has disrespected women that have come forward with their sexual assault stories because of that.

And so in light of that, the word protest is used, but we stood with signs not against Candace speaking, but in support of students that would feel hurt by it. So like, girls, guys, whoever you are, your stories matter and your hurt matters and we don't agree with making light of it.

So that was how it founded. And so when our platform as a Christian university was, again, used to make light of something as heavy and hurtful as sexual assault, something so dark and sinful as rape, we weren't okay with it.

So that's where we started gathering and so that's how we decided, you know, we need to hold signs, we need to support these students again.

So in reaction though to, you're talking about something that happened a while ago, but what happened just now though is in reaction to statements made at the CPAC, right? Yes. What was said at CPAC that offended Me Too or your group?

So Donald Trump Jr. used hashtag Me Too as a punchline and made a joke about it. Okay. And that's why we felt we needed to make a statement both to students on campus and even to like people that we're involved with.

I go to Liberty, but I don't support joking about rape.

So, and that's what you interpreted that as, the Me Too movement is only about opposition to rape. There's not a broader understanding of that.

So the Me Too movement as a whole is about sexual assault and mistreatment, whether it's in the workplace, in the home, things like that. For me, I interpret that mainly as let's support victims of sexual assault.

I understand that other people have different interpretations, but as a whole, it's usually as a response to sexual assault.

It seems like it started somewhat that way, but after the confirmation hearings last year and the way that Me Too has been used, that hashtag, to bully some people when there has not been evidence, I think that has, I don't know if you'd agree with me, kind of muddied the waters as to what the meaning of Me Too actually is because now it's been popularized and it's been used so broadly to apply to so many different situations.

Do you see that?

Yeah, so for me personally, it's a lot like I view feminism. I would proudly identify with first wave feminism. That's where my heart is. I believe in equality, in the home, in the workplace. That's my passion, and that's what I see in scripture.

And so for me, I claim feminism because that's what I identify with, and I understand that modern feminism has twisted some things and has represented the movement poorly, but instead of giving up the term, I choose to reclaim it.

For me, whether it's conservative feminism, things like that, Christian feminism, I see the Me Too parallels that in certain ways. I see how it has then, it has a potential to be misused, but I feel that overall the movement has provided a lot of good and will continue to provide a lot of good in helping women like me come forward with stories.

So you want to reclaim the Me Too. You want it to mean opposition to rape specifically, and then any misuse of that you would denounce and say, well, that's wrong, it's strictly about opposition to assault and rape.

Well, I don't have a monopoly on the term Me Too. For me, I use it in response to sexual assault, which isn't just rape, but also things of that nature and mistreatment in the workplace, sexual harassment and such.

Okay, so I'm going to sort of cut through the fat if it's alright. Someone like myself, and I've heard others out there who are interacting with some of the protesters, I think there's a couple of concerns going on, but I think the primary concern is that there's rainbow flags, I heard them talk about it, so there are those who are advocating LGBT, as in transgenderism, homosexuality, lesbianism, being not sinful things, that they're actually legitimate, and that message was going out there along with the Me Too message, and it seems kind of confusing, for lack of a better term.

And so when I hear things that God says are sinful in his word, being advocated, I'm obviously going to have, as a Christian, a bit of an issue with that. And I think that's what a lot of the people that had an issue with it were trying to advocate and bring awareness to, I guess.

Now you're strictly for the Me Too, you're not with the LGBTQ group, but they were together, protesting together, so there is an association there, there's some kind of a fellowship. Do you agree with the message that was being advocated as far as homosexuality is not a sin, it's okay, transgenderism, not sinful, legitimate?

Yeah, so what I was trying to do, as one of the organizers of this event, was to kind of catch people in groups, individually, to kind of say, hey, you know, this is the intention, we are here to show students love and support.

You may hear different messages from different people that have joined in, but the overall message is we support liberty students. So I made it very clear to the people that were here at the beginning, we had a pastor come in, advocate for ways to pray with sexual assault victims, and to basically handle that well, and handle it gracefully, handle it like Christ.

And those people were briefed on, this is our overarching message, we're not pushing an agenda, we're not pushing policy changes, we're not pushing LGBT one way or the other. But it clearly was being pushed.

So what I'm saying is what the Me Too group, the Me Too group went out there for Me Too. When you have a demonstration like this, you can't always control who comes in.

But the flyer had two groups on it. I understand that.

But the flyer still had the overarching message of we support students. It was not pushing policy, it was not pushing any kind of change in administration. It was saying that students were hurt by these comments, we're here to support them.

And so the people that were here initially were versed on that, they were clear on that. You can't always control what people come in and what they say. And so that's where there were some conflicting messages.

Some people did not get the message that we are strictly here to support and love students that were hurt by comments made by our university. Some students made comments that I wouldn't have made. But I'm not here to, I didn't hear.

Now as the organizer of the event, did you go to the students who were giving a different message than what was originally promoted and trying to encourage them to not give that message? Or were you just kind of letting it go?

Or were you in agreement with it?

I felt that it would cause fewer problems to talk to those people that had been speaking with them on the way out rather than interrupting what the students were trying to say.

Okay, so that could be viewed as an endorsement of sorts. But would you say you're not endorsing the idea that homosexuality, transgenderism are...

My point is, that's not why I'm out here.

Okay, that's not why you're out here, but that is what happened at the event.

I understand that people joined in that were in support of those ideas and that's what they advocated. And I did my best to follow up with people and say, hey, this isn't pushing policy one way or the other.

We're here to support students, so I want to get that message across to you.

I want to give you a little bit of a, it's a hypothetical of sorts. But if, I could give you a long list of evangelical leaders who have said very anti-racist things. Racism is wrong, it's evil. Okay, if, let's say someone had joined that crowd with a sign that said, you know, we need to love racists.

We need to accept them, we need to walk through them with their racism and support them in some way. Would that have been a problem?

Well, I would definitely agree with the statement that we need to love them and we need to minister to them. And I think that's a pretty universal view.

Yeah, what I'm doing is I'm just trying to pick a different kind of sin and say, well, what about this sin? What about adultery? What about people who actually are committing these sexual abuse crimes and so forth that Me Too movement, as you've advocated for, is against?

What if we had signs that said we need to love the perpetrators of sexual assault? We need to understand them. And there's no condemnation of it, just a message of acceptance.

Would you have a problem with that? So I definitely understand where you're coming from. My response to that last one is it's not fair to conflate a consensual relationship, whether we or you agree with it or not, to abuse.

Because in situations of abuse, there is always a victim. And I don't think it's fair to conflate the two. In regards to groups out there advocating for things that most people at Liberty View have sinned, the people advocating those, most of them have theological views.