Andrew Sullivan

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning, a lot to get to,

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I've already announced a number of things and added a few cents then, so we've got to jump right into it.

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I got the opportunity this morning to listen to the debate between Andrew Sullivan and Doug Wilson.

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Finally, I thought I had downloaded it and I guess I hadn't or I'd intended to or I lost it, I don't know. I've been a busy time and I had seen some article which

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I couldn't track down of someone saying why Douglas Wilson lost this debate. I was a little taken aback.

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It seemed that Douglas struggled a little bit with his opening. He said the lightning wasn't good up there, it was hard for him to see his notes, etc.,

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etc. Sometimes I can throw you off. I don't know, we all have bad days. But even though I was listening at high speed on my iPod, it was still a slow -moving debate even at that point, which is rather odd.

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I do have some thoughts on it. I may do a radio -free San Francisco and just respond to a lot of the things that Andrew Sullivan said.

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I don't know that I've ever heard anyone contradict himself and engage in more fulfillment of Romans chapter 1 than I did in that debate.

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It was just amazing. Obviously, a very intelligent man and yet just so blind to his own inconsistencies.

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Just absolutely amazing. But I'm just going to play one audience question and then we'll move on from there to other things to Rob Bell and stuff like that.

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Just one audience question that just absolutely exemplified for me the mindset or the lack of a mindset, the empty mindset of college students today.

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Sorry, if you're a college student. I know there's lots of wonderfully intelligent, wonderful young people, but there is a massive number of people who evidence no moral or ethical or historical rational thought at all, utter incapacity to even hear what is being said to them, and an attention span of a flea.

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In fact, I've seen fleas that have significantly longer attention spans than most of the folks in college these days.

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It's amazing. There was a woman named Bree, a student there at the

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University of Idaho. And I'm just going to play it. And you can tell.

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Now, if I had been Doug Wilson, I would not have answered this question this way. I agree with him in at least the essence of what he's saying.

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But I just don't know why he was not on his A game on this one. But anyway, he tried to give a response.

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Just listen to this encounter between Bree and Douglas Wilson.

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And it's just such a good illustration. Hi, I'm Bree. I'm a student here at University of Idaho. I just like your names, right?

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Wilson and Sullivan. Right. Oh, by the way, I do have it slightly sped up so we can get through it a little bit faster.

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Yes. Okay, perfect. So I guess this is a good time to go back to the beginning and the title of the actual debate, which is why civil marriage for gay couples is good for society.

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And you gave many reasons. The divorce rates in the states are down. You are a perfect reason, but you have not given any reason as to why it is bad other than your weird opposition to the alteration of the literary direct object.

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By the way, Sullivan had made the statement that divorce rates are down in general.

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He didn't even try to establish any relationship. What? So ever between gay marriage and divorce rates did not even try.

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And here is Bree going, well, see, there's good reason divorce rates down must be due to gay marriage.

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And you're just like, really, honestly, this is this is what's going on. And then she doesn't seem to understand.

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Wilson had argued that when you change the direct object of a verb, you change the meaning of the verb.

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If I say the man marries the woman, that's different than the man marries the man. The direct object changes the meaning of the verb.

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Evidently, she didn't get that either. Just absolutely positively amazing. But we press on.

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And aside from your Christian beliefs, because Christian doesn't necessarily or ever really imply society, how is it negatively affecting society?

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Please give us one example. How gay marriage has negatively affected how it will or how it has other than its obvious progression into polygamy, which is completely false.

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But, well, please, anybody who does not see that Muslim immigrants will not be the people next in line after Andrew clamoring using the same arguments that were used here tonight.

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Anybody who thinks that that is not coming is kidding themselves. What? What? What? OK, so she has she has dismissed his entire polygamy argument where he parallels the arguments that and demonstrates

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Sullivan was utterly had no capacity whatsoever. The only argument

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Sullivan could come up with to differentiate from a polygamist desiring to have more than one wife or more than one husband was that, well, then you'd have a small number of guys with too many wives and other guys couldn't have wives and then they'd be violent.

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That that was his argument against polygamy. It's like, OK, so like China, OK, that that's all he can come up with.

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He Wilson did a good job in demonstrating that this was just ad hoc on Sullivan's part and he's just inconsistent.

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He has no basis for arguing against polygamy. And of course, Wilson didn't bring up the other issues that I think have to be brought up.

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And that is the fact that we already have a movement of people saying that pedophilia is a natural orientation, a state.

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Those people should be allowed to do what they do and bestiality and incest and all that stuff, all all, you know, all that's now on the table.

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And all these arguments that Sullivan used could be just take the words out, put those words in.

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Everything's cool. And that didn't that didn't come up because people just they don't want to hear that. Oh, it's just terrible because they can't think through moral and ethical issues for more than a few seconds at a time to see what the issue is.

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So she's already dismissed the polygamy issue. Already dismissed it. So that's just stupid. That's just stupid.

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And so so so Wilson's basically saying, well, if you can't see that this is coming, if you can't see the parallels, then you're just kidding yourself.

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And the problem is Brie can't. She can't. I mean, it's just there's just complete lack of reflective thought, even a willingness to hear what the other side is saying, complete blindness, just absolutely amazing.

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So sorry, I don't. So what I'm saying is that my polygamy argument, by the way, audiences.

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Evidently, being a homosexual means you cannot keep from yelling out at debates, you cannot keep going. You can't keep from clapping at every little thing.

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It evidently I think we should we should research the genetic relationship between homosexuality and the inability to act like an adult at a debate, because one thing that I'm certainly seeing and I've seen lots of evidence of.

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I mean, you want you want anecdotal evidence. Clearly, those who support homosexuality and homosexuals itself are incapable of adult behavior in in public places like gay pride marches and debates.

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It seems consistent to me that the lack of self -control is lack of self -control. I see what they did in San Francisco with the lady with the cross.

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We see it just continually everywhere you go. That's true. We've seen them in Salt Lake City. That's true.

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That's true. That's true. Is not a hype is not a weird hypothetical. The Andrew talked about people saying

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I'm saying one, he's given positive effects that have happened now. There we are, which he did not.

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But that's what he wanted her to hear. And she's just willing to hear anything. And so no critical thought here.

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No critical Brie exercised no critical thought in this entire evening.

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How do you go through an entire evening without exercising critical thought? What what what kind of an upbringing and society do you have to live in to so suppress the natural thinking capacity of the human being?

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Winning the people who are voting for gay rights are winning. We're winning. What's happening now? What has happened?

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That's negative. And we have positive effects. What are the negative effects? Here it is in a index card, three by five card.

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Andrew has granted that polygamy in society is destructive. Correct. How does homosexuality affect you negatively?

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No, Andrew has granted that the president Andrew is granted that the presence of polygamy in society is is a destructive influence.

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We have a short attention span generation here. That was that was my first sentence. I sometimes answer have answers that involve more than one sentence.

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Now, he's right. I'm you know, people, oh, you're a beard.

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So, I mean, no, when you're right, you're right. You know what's going on here.

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They're rolling their eyes. They've stopped listening. They will not listen past one sentence. It's amazing, but I'll give you the first one again, since you weren't listening to it very carefully.

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Andrew is granted that the presence of polygamy in society is destructive to society. I believe that we have every reason to believe that advocates of polygamy, whether fundamentalist

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Mormons or immigrant Muslim men who want to bring all their wives and not just one of them, will use the argumentation and the diversity tolerance mantra as a way of advancing their polygamy argument.

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And that task will be a lot easier for them with the gays having done what they did, than that task would have been 25 years ago before the this whole gay marriage thing started.

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So if if polygamists showed up 25 years ago and said, we want I want my marriage, my polygamous marriage recognized and I want

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Sharia law to be established and I want, you know, I want all these things. Moderator, he's not answering the question. Please. What have you seen already that's happened?

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You are almost asking. This lady wants to ask a question. You got to do it. So I can't do it. You can't do it. He can't do it.

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He can't do it. He can't answer the question because he's got to use more than one sentence.

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And he's asking me to think and to follow reasoning. So he can't do it. These are the voters that we are facing today.

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I there's there's no reasoning with Brie. Brie does not reason. So there is no reasoning with Brie.

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Amazing. Given over, given over. It's the only description of that.

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I was listening to that. I remember right where I was on the road once again. And I just I could not could not believe.

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I would have given many other things. I would have wouldn't have just focused on one thing in my response.

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But we will we may we may spend a little more time on that. It depends.

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It's yeah, it's right. It's the talk to the hand generation. I've made up my mind.

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Don't don't try to reason with me. But I'm the only reasonable person. You're not being reasonable. It's just how's that go?

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Talk to the hand because the ears aren't listening. Oh, and the brain's not engaged in any way, shape or form.

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Absolutely amazing. How sad. Well. In a similar in a similar vein, from the

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Huffington Post, always a place to go to get fascinating information on religion this

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Sunday, Rob Bell spoke at San Francisco's Grace Cathedral and openly endorsed marriage equality.

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Now, by the way, neither Rob Bell nor any of these people actually believe in marriage equality. It's just one of it's it's one of our culture's lies.

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Again, it's it's truth speak. This is 1984 and 1984 just took a little bit longer to happen than than was predicted, but there's no one believes in marriage equality.

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Nobody believes in marriage equality. There is no one that I know of that is promoting marriage between infants and 60 year olds.

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I don't know anyone who is promoting marriage between one man and three women. Well, OK, I do know.

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Never mind. I do know some people like that. They're called bligmas. But they are.

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Let me take all that back. Maybe there are people for more for our for marriage equality.

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But Rob Bell isn't. Because I don't think Rob Bell would allow for a woman to marry her horse or a man to marry his dog or a man to marry his mommy or his grandmommy.

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That would be marriage equality. When you're pushing that, then you're pushing marriage equality. Until then, you are not pushing marriage equality.

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You are using terms like equality and civil rights to shut down cognitive thought on the part of people like Bree.

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It doesn't take much to do that. It's pretty easy to do. Just use the buzzwords and oh,

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I'm all for equality. How can a baby against equality? I mean, come on. That's how these people think he's not for marriage quality.

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He's redefinition of marriage. He's for the overthrow of the definition of marriage. He's not for marriage quality.

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Okay, it's just that simple. Anyways, Grace Cathedral is the Episcopal Cathedral, the

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Diocese of California. That tells you something right there. Bell was speaking at the Cathedral's Grace Forum and appearance presented in partnership with his publisher,

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Harper Collins. Yeah, there you go. In response to a question regarding same sex marriage, Bell said,

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I am for marriage. I am for fidelity. I am for love, whether it's a man and woman, a woman and a woman, a man and a man.

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I think the ship has sailed. I think the church needs. I think this is the world we're living in and we need to affirm people wherever they are.

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Well, remember when John Piper made a comment about Rob Bell, right as Rob Bell's Love Wins book was coming out and dared to use the term heresy and everybody jumped.

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I haven't read the book at all. Well, nothing like proving John Piper right on that one.

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Not that anyone's overly shocked. I mean, Bell has obviously gone way around the bend and down the road and nothing shocking about this at all.

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I mean, once you start playing with the word of God, like he plays the word of God and turning it into your own private play thing, you're, you know, you're modeling clay to do with as you wish, then it's not overly shocking in any way that this would happen.

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Bell went on to say that while it used to be fair to equate evangelicals with social conservatism, that assumption no longer holds true, more poignantly said,

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I think we are witnessing the death of a particular subculture that doesn't work. I think there is a very narrow, politically intertwined, culturally ghettoized evangelical subculture that was told we're going to change the thing and they haven't.

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And they actually have turned away lots of people. And I think that when you're in a part of a subculture that is dying, you want you make a lot more noise because it's very painful.

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You sort of you sort of die or you adapt. And if you adapt, it means you have come face to face with some of the ways we've talked about God, which don't actually shape people into more loving, compassionate people.

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And we have supported policies and ways of viewing the world that are actually destructive. And we've done it in the name of God.

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And we need to repent. So evidently, if you actually believe what Jesus taught about marriage, then you need to repent, according to Rob Bell, who believes everyone's going to get saved anyways.

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So there you go. Rob Bell. Left with love wins, but now has made it very, very clear that he is not an evangelical and we can just.

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Let him go up. Some of you heard about the Rob Portman issue.

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Rob Portman is a senator and he has his this commentary is posted

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March 15th. So four days ago, Rob Portman commentary in the Columbus Dispatch, gay couples also deserve a chance to get married.

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Notice, notice the language in in our world today, gay couples. I don't believe there is such a thing.

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You may have two gay guys who go out or live together or things like that, or three or four or five or whatever. In fact, the funny thing was

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Alan or Andrew Sullivan. You know, for all his talk about fidelity and monogamy and all the rest of this stuff.

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Admit it. That when he was younger, man, he just he did the gay thing, you know.

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He, you know, all sorts of partners, it's just when you get older and you don't look as good as you used to, then you just find one.

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And this is supposed to be somehow. What a couple is. But how far has this culture descended into oblivion to even use such things?

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But anyways, as as most people know, Rob Portman is changed his view, and he did so because the fact came out that his son is a homosexual, obviously, for most folks, you hear about this.

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And you go, hmm. So a person's.

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Moral stands as a senator of the United States of America. We're not thought through before.

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And personal experience can then change that. So I suppose that someone can say, well, you know,

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I had never met a pedophile before and I'd never actually talk to them and and realize they're people like us and they bleed like us and they have dreams like us.

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Or I met this couple and and it's a it's a grandson married to his grandmother.

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And and, you know, at first I thought that was so weird. But, you know, once I got to know them and see how loving they are and and once Hollywood made a movie about how how they are mistreated by others and yet they love each other and it's wonderful.

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You see, all you got to do is get Hollywood to start making some movies and have some some some heartstring pulling stuff.

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And people who have no ethical and moral foundation whatsoever will go, OK, sounds good to me.

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Sounds good to me. And of course, you look at this and you go, well, here's somebody, you know, that's been opposing this all this time.

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And then all it takes is for him to get to know somebody, his family. And say, you know what, because my son's homosexual,

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I think we should redefine what marriage is. So that he can have a relationship that we call marriage with another guy, not going to have any grandkids out of this, of course, can't do that because it doesn't produce life.

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But we just need to redefine everything. And unfortunately, seems like a majority of people.

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In Western culture. That element of the image of God that gives them common sense and moral and ethical things, which only comes from common grace,

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God seems to have been withdrawn. And it's just like, oh, that sounds good. That sounds good.

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There you go. And so there you go. And this is all right at the time, of course, when when the

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Supreme Court is looking at this, of course, the thing that caught my attention was this statement from Portman.

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I wrestled with how to reconcile my Christian faith, my desire for Will to have the same opportunities to pursue happiness and fulfillment as his brother and sister.

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Now, there is so much there. So much there.

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I mean, really, what is the presupposition that has been accepted by Portman and accepted as a given by almost everybody in the debate?

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Well, that's just the way Will is. And Will can't change. Will can't change.

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There can be no change. There is no First Corinthians 6, 9 -11 in the New Testament. It's not there.

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Stop quoting it. You can't believe that. Not in our society anymore.

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No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't you quote that. Don't say, and such were some of you. If you are going to be accepted in Western culture today, you have to reject what the

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Bible says. You have to. It's just a given. The only way

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Will will ever have happiness. Is to indulge his homosexuality.

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To give in, act upon it, redefine marriage.

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It's all there is to it. All there is to it. And then, as I said, I don't know, sometime last year,

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I noted this trend. I'm probably behind on the curve, a little slow. But what

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I say, I was noticing in all the homosexual stuff coming up. The New Apologetic is, talk about the

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Bible's overarching theme of love. That's how you get past the tough text.

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That's how you get past First Corinthians 6. That's how you get past Romans 1. You know, I think most people realize, you know, there's some honest folks out there that recognize, you know, the

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Bible is just against all this stuff. The Bible, it's just, you can't twist this enough. You can't play with Romans 1 enough to turn this into just pedophilia or something like that.

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No, it's too much here. So what you got to do is you got to talk about the overarching theme of love.

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Not love for God, not love for holiness, not love for righteousness, not love for what is best for man. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

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You know, that's asking way too much of our society to define the word love.

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Love is a feeling. Love is an emotion. Love is whatever you want to make it.

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Don't talk about what the Bible teaches about love. That's too, no, no. So here's the next sentence.

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Ultimately, it came down to the Bible's overarching themes of love and compassion and my belief that we are all children of God.

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Well, Senator Portman, if you're a Christian, you need to read your

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Bible because you obviously haven't. The Bible does not say we are all children of God.

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The Bible says we're all the creatures of God. But it says those who are the children of God are those who repent and have faith in Jesus Christ.

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That's... Oh, but I don't like that. Well, OK, I'm sorry you don't like that.

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I'm not going to apologize for that teaching, though, because to say otherwise, to say the cross is of no effect.

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So just keep in mind what you're asking me to do. The Bible's overarching theme of love,

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Senator Portman, is focused in the cross. The Bible's overarching theme of love is the self -giving love of God in Jesus Christ, and that self -giving love honored the law of God and fulfilled the law of God on the cross of Calvary.

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And by saying what you're saying, you are undoing the cross.

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You're saying it was not necessary. The son did not have to give himself.

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God could have just overlooked all that sin and wrath. No, God's all...

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He's just our heavenly daddy. We don't need to worry about wrath, right? I wrestled with how to reconcile my

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Christian faith, my desire for will to have the same opportunities to pursue happiness, fulfillment as his brother and sister. So I decided to throw out the essence of the

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Christian faith and redefine marriage for my son. And there are people who would go, there are people who would do that.

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Many, many people. Absolutely amazing. Well, let's see what this one was.

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I remember pulling that one up. I'll look at that one later. Where are we?

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Oh, almost, almost the half hour. I don't know even what to say in regards to all of that.

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I guess what I'll do, Philip, we're going to take a break at the bottom of the hour. Let me just mention one other thing really quickly.

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And then I want to have one consistent theme for the last half hour. We're going to talk about some responses to the papal elections.

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There is also a new book out. I have it on Kindle. I've got the paper copy coming that I mentioned a few weeks ago, but now it's actually out.

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And it is the New New Testament, the New New Testament. Yes, those 19 scholars, we've mentioned it before.

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But now that I have it, I want to read a part of it to you, which might ruin all of you running out and buying it.

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I'm sorry if that's the case. I'm sure you're all just waiting with bated breath to read it.

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One of the. Songs or poems that has been included in the

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New New Testament. Is called the Thunder Colon Perfect Mind, it's less than 100 verses, they've divided it up into five chapters.

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In this, no one. In all of antiquity ever mentioned it, nobody.

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Gnostics, nobody. We don't even know it was written. Could have been written 100 years before Jesus, but it's still in the

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New Testament all of a sudden. Never mentions Jesus, doesn't come from a Christian worldview. Let me let me just read you the first the first section, and I hope that you all will be deeply, deeply blessed.

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Here we go. I was sent out from power, I came to those pondering me and I was found among those seeking me.

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Look at me, all you who contemplate me, audience, hear me, those expecting me, receive me, don't chase me from your sight.

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Don't let your voice or your hearing hate me. Don't ignore me any place, any time. Be careful, do not ignore me.

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I am the first and last. I am she who is honored and she who is mocked. I am the whore and the holy woman.

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I am the wife and the virgin. I am he, the mother and the daughter. I am the limbs of my mother.

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I am a sterile woman and she has many children. I am she whose wedding is extravagant and I didn't have a husband.

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I am the midwife and she who hasn't given birth. I am the comfort of my labor pains. I am the bride and the bridegroom, and it is my husband who gave birth to me.

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I am my father's mother, my husband's sister, and he is my child. I am the slave woman of him who served me.

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I am she, the lord of my child. But it is he who gave birth to me at the wrong time.

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And he is my child born at the right time. And my power is from within him. I am the staff of his youthful power.

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And he is the baton of my old womanhood. Whatever he wants happens to me. That's the first chapter.

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The Turretin fan just said in channel, this is clearly a Lost Beatles song. Yeah, yeah,

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I think I think that could be a Lost Beatles song, too, but much older. Now, I read this.

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To go. You know. I've heard stuff like this before.

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It was in my sixth grade English class. This is just a poem somebody wrote for crying out loud.

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It's just a poem. And it's weird and it comes from a weird worldview. Why on earth would anyone, including

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John Dominic Croson, one of the 19 people. Think this belongs. In the new

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New Testament, simple common sense has been abandoned.

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It is amazing, absolutely amazing.

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Well, let's let's take a break and I don't know.

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We'll be right back. Breaking news from the

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White House and the issue gay marriage for a lot of people. You know, the word marriage was something that evokes very powerful traditions, religious beliefs.

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I think same sex couples should be able to get married. The NAACP has passed a resolution endorsing gay marriage as a civil right.

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This comes two weeks after the president announced his support for same sex marriage under the guise of tolerance.

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Our culture today grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Anyone opposing or questioning this today is quickly shouted down, called a bigot, a homophobe, a hate monger, threatened and accused of discrimination.

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It's become commonplace to see people who take a biblical stand against homosexuality ostracized to the point of losing their job.

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How soon will it be before we will also see people losing their freedom? Now, more than ever, Christians need to be equipped to be an approved workman of God, correctly dividing the word of truth, as we are told in Second Timothy to 15.

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Dr. James White and Pastor Jeffrey Neal have partnered to bring you their book, The Same Sex Controversy.

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If you are Christian, this book is just one of the tools you'll need to be prepared to give a proper defense of the faith in the face of the unrighteous onslaught we face today.

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The authors write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on this subject, explaining and defending the foundational biblical passages that deal with homosexuality, including

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Genesis, Leviticus and Romans. In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and return to God's plan for his people.

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The Same Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy today from the bookstore at AOMN .org.

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And don't forget to search for other resources like debates and past dividing lines dealing with this very provocative issue.

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And remember, theology matters. Hello, everyone, this is

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Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program, the need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

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I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday, yet they have never been confronted with their sin.

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Alpha and Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner, making no excuses.

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Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior. And Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior.

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Thank you. What is this?

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Huh? Really? I have not heard this one before. Seriously? I just haven't heard that one before.

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Maybe it's because it's been so long since I have heard it. I think it's possible it's something we pulled off of Adobe.

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We do have some free stuff out there that we grabbed. Yeah, OK. All right. I just had not heard that one before. It sounds different.

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And it ended, too. Anyway, last

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Wednesday, I found it necessary to address, again, in every area.

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If if you if you believe what a sound.

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Semi well read, balanced. Conservative reform person believed in 1950.

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You're starting to wonder if you're one of the last people left on Earth these days. Because on every subject.

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There has been such a massive shift. And it's not because the other side has been winning the arguments.

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It's because there haven't been any arguments. That's the problem. And I had to address the issues in regards to the papacy because of what

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I was seeing from ostensibly non Roman Catholics on Twitter.

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And we addressed the issues of the gospel and the papacy and took some phone calls.

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But there have been some comments published since then. That I needed to address and some to more depth than others.

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In on CBN. Com CBN News for March 15, 2013.

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The most surprising thing to me was he was also a great friend of evangelicals, evangelist

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Luis Palau, who has met the new pope several times, told

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CBN News. He has tremendous respect for evangelicals. He was a friend.

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He goes on to say, I was so impressed that he really does know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Palau added.

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And I say that carefully because the way he prayed is the prayer of a child of God speaking to his heavenly father.

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So here is Luis Palau. And he tells us that he knows that the pope is truly regenerate.

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And how does he know that the pope is truly regenerate? He is truly a child of God because of how he prays because of how he prays.

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So evidently, I guess Luis Palau might be attending the next gathering of folks.

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Up in Salt Lake City. You'll hear how one of the apostles, the Mormon Church, prays.

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And that will mean the Mormons are are in. And, you know, just as long as you pray well.

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Then that's it, you don't have to worry about all this stuff about the gospel, you don't have to worry about transubstantiation and the mass, you don't have to worry about purgatory and and all that stuff.

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And people who worry about little stuff like that, you're just those narrow minded Calvinists.

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And your days are are numbered. Your days are numbered. Is what we're being told these days.

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So there isn't anything more. There's no there's no comment from Palau as to how he puts together, you know, the gospel and how he prays or anything like that.

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It's just Luis Palau says the pope's Christian because this is how he speaks.

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Then we also have on March 17th. So this was two days ago.

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Gary Bauer, yes, the Gary Bauer, former presidential candidate, briefly anyways.

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And this is from USA Today, why evangelicals should care about the new pope.

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Catholics are our best allies in important cultural and political battles. Now, those of you who are new to the program can't really answer this.

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But those of you who have been listening for a while, what have I been saying literally for years?

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Well, as our culture becomes more and more anti -Christian. More and more post -Christian, more and more secular and opposed to the gospel, opposed the lordship of Jesus Christ, as we become a smaller and smaller portion, even by the polls.

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Of course, we've always been much smaller than any polls have ever indicated. But when you're in a smaller and smaller area, you start looking around for allies.

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And things that you used to think were important all of a sudden become non -important. Now, some things that we've thought important, have thought important, just because we've thought something is important doesn't mean it was unless we thought it through and provide a foundation.

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There are some things, there are a lot of things that in a fundamentalist upbringing, you're told are extremely important that weren't.

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They were not important at all. But you have to think through what is important and determine what defines things.

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And when you do so on the basis of New Testament, you discover that there is a clear, compelling argument to be made for the fact that the gospel is not a negotiable.

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It's not one of those things you can put off to the side and say, well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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You can't do that. Let me give you a foundation for this before I go back to Bauer and then also interact with something that John Piper said.

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I mentioned this last week, but I mentioned it briefly. I want. I ask you, if you're one of those many people who for some reason listen to this program, because I guess you're fascinated by radical right wing

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Calvinists. Or maybe you agree with me, you're interested in what

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I say about Islam and the research I've done on that and stuff like that, but then you just close your ears at this point or just put up with it.

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I don't know. There are a lot of different people listen to this program for a lot of reasons. Give me a way of understanding these texts that's hermeneutically sound, biblically consistent, based on the original language of the text, if you can.

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If you disagree with what I'm saying here, then give me a way out. Be a whole lot easier for me.

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Man, we could really expand our support base. In Galatians chapter two, remember

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Galatians chapter one, he's anathematized anyone who preaches another gospel. He's been really out front.

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And then he starts talking about false brethren.

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Pseudo Delphoi. False brethren. I need to know how can

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I identify false brethren today or can we? I think there's a lot of folks today that would say, well, that was only something apostles could do.

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We really can't. We can't do that today. We can't identify false brethren.

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They had a supernatural ability to see things that we don't have. And if you want to substantiate that, OK. But these false brethren are described for us.

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It says that they had been secretly brought in. They had snuck in to spy out our liberty.

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Those are not good terms. These are words that implicate these individuals with deception.

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But they are inside the church. They are false brethren. They claim to be brethren, but they're not.

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And they're there to bring us into bondage. And Paul says that we did not yield in subjection to them for even a moment.

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For what reason? So that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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Now, do we still have the truth of the gospel? I think for a large number of non -Catholic, non -Protestants.

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In other words, there are people that aren't Roman Catholic, not because they reject Rome's gospel or know anything about Rome's gospel.

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It's just a matter of taste. They don't know anything about their history. I think for a vast majority of those folks, the answer to that question is no.

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We don't know the truth of the gospel anymore. We just don't know. We just don't know.

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It's one man's opinion versus another man's opinion. That's the best we can do. I think that the promise of Scripture is the gospel will remain with us.

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The Spirit of God is capable of maintaining the kingdom and the message over time.

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But the point is that Christians have to fight against these false brethren. And the issue is the truth of the gospel.

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So what Paul's saying is it's worth going to the mat. This is a hill to die upon.

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And yet for many today, no, it is not. Paul was just, you know, you know how

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Paul could get, you know, a little over top, you know. I mean, he said things in Galatians are pretty nasty.

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So in light of that, Galatians chapter 5, it was for freedom that Christ set us free.

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Therefore, keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold, I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision,

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Christ will be of no benefit to you. How many people today would have the gall, the backbone, the conviction, to say to someone, you may be claiming

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Christ. And those Judaizers were. They were in the church. You may be claiming

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Christ. He will be of no benefit to you. Jesus will not be a co -savior.

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Jesus will not share his glory with another. He will not join with you and your circumcision to bring about your salvation.

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Christ will be of no benefit to you. If we know the gospel, if the truth, the gospel is still with us, then we have to be able to say that.

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We shouldn't enjoy saying it. I doubt Paul was sitting there cackling when he wrote this.

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But if you possess the truth, the gospel, then you should be able to tell the truth about the gospel.

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And you should be able to tell the truth to people and say, look, what you're believing isn't the gospel, and Christ will be of no benefit to you.

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And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law.

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You can't just tack a little bit of the law onto faith with Jesus. It's not going to work.

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If you start down that road, you've got to go all the way. You cannot go down the road of grace and the road of law at the same time because they go the opposite direction.

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Can't do it. You have been severed from Christ.

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You who are seeking to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace.

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That's absolutely beyond all question. The apostle recognizes the gospel as a non -negotiable.

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It is definitional. And when you've got a different gospel, you're not in Christ, you're a false brethren.

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Christ will be of no benefit to you. And don't talk about God's grace. You are not even in the sphere of God's grace.

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God's grace does not go down the road of human achievement.

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Grace plus works is dead. You have a track by that title.

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Grace plus works is dead. So, if you want to show me where on earth

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I've missed the boat here, then show me where I've missed the boat. But in light of that,

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I go to Gary Bauer's article. And he said, I wish

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I could say the same was true among all my fellow evangelicals. Earlier this week I wrote an email to supporters encouraging them to pray for Catholics and their leaders as they selected the next

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Pope. My note prompted several derisive emails from evangelicals who make up the majority of my support network.

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One emailer responded in a way that I think exemplifies the view of too many evangelicals. He advised me not to minimize the doctrinal differences between Catholics and evangelicals.

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And he accused me of blurring the lines between evangelicals and Catholics and of advocating for a one -world religion. Thankfully, most evangelicals wouldn't be that uncharitable toward our

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Catholic brothers and sisters. So for Gary Bauer, the gospel is unnegotiable.

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It's not definitional. And you can have a different gospel and still be brothers and sisters.

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It's okay. You don't have to worry about all those minor differences we have. But sadly, a minority would endorse that characterization.

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They need to realize they too have a stake in who is elected Pope because without a strong Pope, evangelicals will lose their best allies in the most important cultural and political battles of our age.

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Well, Gary, I thought the most important ally we had was the spirit of God making the gospel come alive in the hearts of men and women.

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I must have missed that. I guess I'm just silly in that way.

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Catholics and evangelicals, and to a lesser extent Orthodox Jews and Mormons, have formed a formidable partnership in recent decades against the threats of secularism, relativism, and Islamism.

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Islamism. Doctrinal differences remain, of course.

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But the Catholic Evangelical Alliance has reshaped American politics. Yeah, it's doing real well, isn't it?

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It's really stopped the advance of socialism. Not. In many cases, Catholics have provided the intellectual framework and vocabulary to discuss

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Christianity's vital role in our democracy while Protestants have contributed fervor and youth. There you go.

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There you go. Wow. There you have someone who clearly has bought all the natural law stuff and just doesn't even begin to see what the real issues are.

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And then you have this. Here's a statement. We do not agree on every issue, but on the essential ones, those both faiths consider non -negotiable,

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Catholics and evangelicals are allied. No.

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No, we're not. That's not even a Roman Catholic perspective.

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Oh, I realize Roman Catholics will do the ecumenical thing up to a certain point, but Rome recognizes the centrality of her teaching of the mass.

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May not emphasize that in talking to you, but she does. And so the gospel, not an essential thing.

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Gary Bauer, there you go. Now, my time is running out. I would have much more to say about that, but I wanted to get to this.

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On March 14th, John Piper posted clarifying my words about Roman Catholic quote, heresy, end quote.

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A few years ago, I was asked on camera what I would say to the Pope if I had two minutes with him. I said I would ask him what he believed about justification.

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The video ended with me putting the question to the Pope and then responding as follows. Do you teach that we should rely entirely on the righteousness of Christ imputed to us by faith alone as the ground of God being 100 % for us after which necessary sanctification comes?

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Do you teach that? And if he said, no, we don't, then I'd say, I think, I think that's right at the core of Roman Catholic.

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I think that right at the core of Roman Catholic theology is a heresy or something like that. Heresy is a strong word.

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The problem is that its meaning and implications are not clear. Dictionary .com defines heresy, for example, as follows.

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Opinion or doctrine at variance to the Orthodox or accepted doctrine, especially of a church or religious system. Number two, any belief or theory that is strongly at variance to established beliefs, customs, etc.

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You can see how fluid such definitions are. So what did I mean in the video? I meant that the rejection of one, the doctrine of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ as an essential part of the basis of our justification, and two, the doctrine of good works necessarily follow justification but are not part of its ground.

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The rejection of those truths is a biblical error so close to the heart of the gospel that when he's consistently worked out, will undermine saving faith in the gospel.

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Now let me stop right there for a moment. Rome has had a long time.

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Depending on when you want to start Roman Catholicism or indicate that was its beginning time or whatever,

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Rome has had a long time to work things out. And I don't think the anathemas of Trent were just a knee -jerk reaction.

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I continue on. The reason for saying when consistently worked out is because I think it is possible to inconsistently deny the truth of imputation while embracing other aspects of the gospel, blood -bought forgiveness and propitiation, for example, through which

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God mercifully saves. I am thankful that God is willing to save us even when our grasp of the gospel may be partial or defective.

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None of us has a comprehensive or perfect grasp of it. Nevertheless, God's mercy is not a warrant to neglect or deny precious truths, especially those that are at the heart of how we get right with God and the teachers of the church, notably the

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Pope, will be held more responsible than others for teaching what is fully biblical. Thus, any church who's teaching and rejects the imputation of the rites of Christ as an essential ground of our justification would be a church whose heir is so close to the heart of the gospel as to be involved in undermining the faith of its members.

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And that's the end of it. And that was supposed to be a clarification. That didn't clarify anything for me. That raises a lot of questions.

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First of all, I do not believe that the Bishop of Rome is a teacher of the church.

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That's not my church. I do not recognize the Bishop of Rome as a valid Christian leader in any way, shape, or form.

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I cannot recognize anyone who is called Holy Father, the

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Vicar of Christ, and an Alter Christus as a teacher in the

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Christian church. So why is John Piper saying he is? That I don't get.

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But the real thing that bothers me here is that it seems that Dr. Piper, along with many others, don't see the consistency of Roman Catholic teaching and think you can somehow separate out

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Rome's doctrine of justification and put it on a plate over here separate from all the rest of that stuff and analyze it in that way and say, well, you know.

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Now, if all he's saying is that there are Christians within what calls itself Roman Catholicism, I've said that for years.

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But they are what they are not because of Rome but in spite of Rome. They're the simple people who have put their faith solely in Jesus Christ.

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They don't know all the rest of this gobbledygook. And they think they're just following him. I don't think there's many of them, but God's grace is big.

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But they are what they are in spite of Rome's gospel. Rome's gospel cannot save, it cannot give peace, it is not the gospel.

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It is under the anathema of Galatians chapter 1. And I think a lot of folks just don't get, they don't recognize what

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Rome itself teaches on this. Rome itself teaches, Rome itself teaches that the sacrifice of the mass is propitiatory and that it is the central aspect of the

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Roman faith and the worship of God. If you try to construct a doctrine of justification in Roman Catholicism without recognizing that it takes its form and its shape first and foremost within the sacramental system of Rome and with the queen of the sacraments being the doctrine of the mass, the

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Eucharistic sacrifice, then you don't understand Roman Catholic theology and you haven't read enough of it.

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And I think a lot of my dear brothers in the Lord just haven't listened to enough of what

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Roman Catholics say to Roman Catholics. And so here's the problem.

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You can't look at the doctrine of justification and go, well, you know, Dr. Piper writes an entire book against N .T.

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Wright. Well, N .T. Wright is a whole lot closer than Rome is. I mean, he's not talking about a propitiatory sacrifice in the mass due to transubstantiation.

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The whole basis of Rome's concept of justification is completely different and they're all intertwined.

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They can't be separated from one another. So the question is not does any one of us have a comprehensive or perfect grasp of the gospel?

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The question is not can someone be saved with a partial knowledge or grasp of the gospel?

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The question is can you be saved by a false gospel that was specifically designed, framed, and promulgated as a response to and denial of the true gospel?

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Could you be saved by the Judaizers gospel? And that's why I read

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Galatians 5 first because there'd be a lot of people who would say, oh, yeah, sure.

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No, Paul said, you, Christ, will be of no benefit to you. And I say to the

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Roman Catholic who understands what Rome teaches, understands the propitiatory nature of the sacrifice of the mass,

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Christ will be of no benefit to you. You have been severed from grace. You've fallen from grace, you've been severed from Christ.

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So I've got a lot of questions, a lot of questions that have been raised by this. And maybe it's, you know, good thing we have to think these things through, but we need to start thinking these things through.

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Wow. A lot today. A lot today. Thank you for listening. Lord willing, we'll be back.

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I've got so much that I want to do on the program here and only so much time to do it.

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But if I decide to get a little early start on Thursday, I'll let you know via Twitter, let you know on Facebook.

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We'll be getting started a little bit early. Don't know if we'll have time to do it, but we'll try. So much to get to.

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We keep pressing on. Pray for us. God bless. Thanks for listening. The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

01:01:10

If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at P .O.

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Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

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