August 20, 2024 Show with Brandon Crawford on “The Baptist Confession of Faith & Catechism for Dispensational Churches”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday and a happy National Radio Day, I just found out, on this 20th day of August 2024.

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Well, I have a first -time guest today that I am really intrigued about interviewing.

I am not a dispensationalist, as anyone who listens to my program regularly will know, but I often enjoy to have people who disagree with me over various issues regarding theology and interpretation of the

Scriptures, and this happens to be one of those occasions, although my guest and I have a lot in common theologically as well.

My guest today, for the very first time, is Brandon Crawford, Senior Pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Marshall, Michigan, who has a

Ph .D. in historical theology from Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan, founded by my longtime friend,

Dr. Joel Beakey, who was just my recent keynote speaker at the last

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon that I hosted just a couple of months ago.

And not only does he have a

Ph .D. in historical theology from Puritan Reform Theological Seminary, but he is the author of The Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches.

And today, we are going to be addressing the theme, Keech Meets Darby. Should the primary confession of Covenantal Reform Baptists be altered for adoption by dispensationalists?

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sherpins Iron Radio, Pastor Brandon Crawford.

Well, thank you so much, Chris. I'm delighted to be here. Well, first of all, tell our listeners about Grace Baptist Church of Marshall, Michigan.

Of course. So Grace Baptist Church is located in south -central Michigan. It was planted in 2002, and I became the pastor here in 2010.

The church is affiliated with the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches. In doctrine, we hold a modified 1689

London Baptist Confession, and in our philosophy of ministry, we practice biblical evangelism, expository preaching.

We have a classical musical style, and we're also a family -integrated church.

Great. And, obviously, since you use a modified 1689

London Baptist Confession, you are obviously soteriologically reformed.

As a dispensationalist, I know that there are differences of preference among sovereign grace -believing dispensationalists as to whether or not to use the label reformed.

Some may say I'm a dispensationalist with reformed soteriology. Some may say I'm a Calvinist dispensationalist or a dispensationalist who believes in the doctrines of grace.

Any preference on your part in how to, if you use labels such as those?

Oh, I'm comfortable with any of those labels. You can call me a dispensational Calvinist, a reformed dispensationalist, if you can accept that term.

Any of that would be fine. Yes. I am personally not as nearly as hung up on what labels and titles people choose to use, as long as there's some kind of historical premise and connection of accuracy when they do so.

I know that there are Presbyterians who refuse to call me a reformed

Baptist or anyone who would agree with me on theology just because they think it's an impossibility to be a reformed

Baptist. And there are even those who agree with me theologically who might even use, as their official standard of faith, the summary of doctrine, the 1689

Lenin Baptist Confession. There are even some of us who do not like to use the word reformed.

So there is a whole bunch of differences amongst the brethren in Christ who may agree on a lot of things but choose to identify themselves differently.

Well, if anybody is either living in the Marshall, Michigan, area, or you have family, friends, and loved ones in or near Marshall, Michigan, or you're traveling through there, perhaps you're going on vacation, the website for further exploration of this church is gracedbaptistmarshall .com,

gracedbaptistmarshall .com. We have a tradition here, Pastor Brandon, whenever we have a first -time guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, that guests will give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include the religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. And we would love to hear your story.

Well, sure, I'd love to share my testimony. So I was born in Detroit in 1983, and at that time neither one of my parents was a professing

Christian. In fact, as I understand it, my mom even asked the minister to expunge all references to God from their wedding vows.

Wow. So there may have even been a hostility there to the

Christian faith. But when I was about seven years old, my parents moved us out of Detroit and into the suburbs, and in God's providence, we ended up moving directly across the street from a wonderful Christian family.

And they had children about the age of my sister and myself, and they befriended us, and eventually began inviting us to their church, which was called

Huron Baptist Church in Flat Rock, Michigan. And at that time, I think the church only had a few dozen people, and they were meeting in an old

Michigan Bell office, but it was a wonderful little church.

And in time, my mom, my sister, and I began to attend. And we loved our experiences there. Eventually, my younger sister and I joined the

AWANA program, sponsored by the church. And if your listeners are familiar with AWANA, then they know the first verse you memorize is

John 3 .16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And I recited that verse word perfect to my AWANA leader. And she said, very good,

Brandon. Now, do you know what that verse means? And I told her, no, I didn't.

And so she took the time to explain what that verse means. And to my memory, that is the first time

I ever heard the gospel. About a year or so later, I was ready to embrace

Christ in faith myself. So I told my mom, who at that time had become a committed

Christian herself. I told her I was ready to become a Christian. And so she set up an appointment with my pastor.

And I met with him in the back of our church building. And he reviewed the gospel with me once more.

And then I received Christ in repentance and faith. I was about nine years old at that point.

And about a year after that, I was baptized. And I've never looked back since. Hallelujah.

And at that time, was the church where this occurred, teaching and declaring the doctrines of sovereign grace?

It was, yes. The pastor of the church was a man named

Steve Thomas. In fact, he's still the pastor there now more than 40 years later.

And he was an expository preacher. He is an expository preacher.

And he wholeheartedly embraced the doctrines of grace. So that's where I received my grounding in those doctrines.

Praise God. And by the way, you said that you were, as a youth, involved in Awana.

And I believe that all young people are in some way affiliated with Awana, whether they're

Christians or not. I want a bicycle. I want a new cell phone. I want a new pair of sneakers. That just occurred to me, that joke.

Forgive me if that offended anybody. Well, when did you realize that the

Lord had placed a call upon your life to enter into pastoral ministry? I wanted to become a pastor almost immediately after becoming a

Christian. Wow. In fact, when I was, yes, when I was perhaps 10 years old,

I even went to the associate pastor of our church. And I told him of my desire to become a pastor.

And I asked if he'd be willing to meet with me and start talking about what I would need to do to get qualified for the pastorate.

And I'm so thankful to God that I had a pastor who took me seriously, even as a young boy.

And he made an appointment with me. And he took me to the pastoral epistles.

And he just walked through all of the qualifications listed there, telling me that these were the qualities that I needed to be cultivating in my life to be a pastor.

And as I got into my later teen years, I began to question my life's calling.

I think a lot of teenagers have that experience. But after 9 -11, my freshman year of college, that old desire was solidified once more.

And it was confirmed by my local church. And so I transferred out of Wayne State University in Detroit, and I went to a

Christian college in Wisconsin. And then after that, returned to the Detroit area to go to Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary for my

Master of Divinity. And I was ordained a few months after graduating and then installed here at Grace Baptist Church.

So it was a long, long desire on my part to be a pastor.

And I'm assuming that your choice of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary was because of your proximity to Grand Rapids.

But, of course, I'm sure the primary reason was that they are teaching the truths of God's sovereign grace and have a very fine reputation for doing so.

But it is interesting because they're not really well known for being a bastion of dispensationalism.

That is true. In fact, are you the only dispensationalist student there? I don't know whether I was or not.

If I wasn't the only one, I was certainly part of an extreme minority in the student body.

But my heading to Puritan Reformed Seminary for doctoral work was just another movement of the providence of God.

You see, as I was wrapping up my MDiv studies at Detroit Baptist Seminary, I was planning to go to Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky for my doctorate.

But during that final semester of MDiv studies, I was contacted by one of the professors at Detroit.

He told me about Grace Baptist Church being without a pastor, and he told me they were looking for men to come and fill the pulpit while they conducted their search.

And so he asked if it would be okay if he submitted my name to the church as possible pulpit supply, and I agreed.

So he reached out to the church, gave them my name, and I was invited out to Grace Baptist Church to preach one time.

That was Palm Sunday in 2010. Then I didn't hear from the church again for a couple of months until finally

I'm in final exam week, my last semester at Detroit Seminary. I'd already been accepted to Southern for doctoral studies.

I thought that's where I would be heading to next. But kind of out of the blue,

I received a phone call from Grace Baptist Church, and they asked me if I'd consider coming a few more times over the summer to preach and to possibly become their candidate for pastor.

And I saw this as from God, so I accepted that invitation.

They extended the call to me, and so I ended up moving to Marshall to pastor this church. And I deferred my enrollment to Southern Seminary for two years so I could get grounded here in Marshall.

Eventually, I decided to just cancel my plans to study at Southern and then discovered that Puritan Reform Seminary was only 90 miles away from my church and that it was a wonderful school.

I wanted to specialize in Jonathan Edwards, and I discovered that Puritan Reform Seminary has one of the only complete sets of the works of Jonathan Edwards in print.

All 70 volumes, not just the 26 volumes that were publicly released.

So I was thrilled to find that school, and its doctrine was right where I wanted it to be, and they were willing to receive me.

I was honest with them about my theological perspective at the time I applied, and they received me into the student body, so I was so grateful for that.

Praise God. I wonder if the late John Gerstner had anything to do with getting that complete set of Edwards works to the seminary.

I don't even know if there was any connection at all. Yeah, I don't know what the story is behind that.

The reason why I brought up Gerstner is he was, while he was living, fairly well known as being one of the greatest living scholars regarding the life and legacy of Jonathan Edwards.

Although I don't know if he would have described himself that way, but it was patently obvious he was.

But just a great hero of mine, especially in my early years as a

Christian. Yes, he was a great Edwardsian scholar, and I have his three -volume set entitled

The Rational Biblical Theology of Jonathan Edwards right behind me here in my office. I guess you weren't too offended by his book,

Rowley Defining the Word of Truth. In my view, that was an unfortunate book.

Well, you know, there were even some confessional Covenantal Reformed Baptists that believed he went a little too hyper -Calvinist in his views.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but it wasn't universally embraced even by non -dispensationalists.

I don't think that book was particularly fair to the dispensational perspective, but that's just my view.

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break, and if anybody listening has a question, please send it in to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Brandon Crawford after these messages. Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur.

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So please go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And we're now back with Pastor Brandon Crawford, and we are discussing the

Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches. And I think it would be wise for you,

Pastor Brandon, especially for new converts in our audience or perhaps even for those who are not even

Christians or evangelicals. We do have listeners sometimes that are not any kind of a

Christian. And perhaps if you could define, and of course this will require a summary, which may be very difficult, because I know that neither dispensationalism or those who are advocates of covenant theology, neither one of those groups are monolithic.

And even with covenant theology, you have Pato Baptists and Reformed Baptists disagreeing, and you even have differences of opinion amongst

Reformed Baptists on how to accurately define covenant theology. But if you could do your best to summarize a definition of both and their differences before we head into why you have created this.

Sure. And I appreciate this opportunity, because for some in the

Reformed world, dispensationalism is something of a dirty word, kind of like the word

Baptist itself from former times. And we do know that the reverse is true.

There are many dispensationalists. If you say that you are a believer in covenant theology, there are some extreme dispensationalists who think you're a heretic or a liberal.

I mean, you could go on and on with the derogatory remarks that will be said.

So this is a two -way street. Yes, absolutely. Yes. But in my view, far from being a departure from the

Reformed tradition, I think dispensationalism has actually advanced that tradition.

And I'll explain why. During the Protestant Reformation, we saw a recovery of the doctrine of sola scriptura, which means that Scripture alone is our authority in matters of faith and practice.

And along with that new conviction came a new desire to read and to understand the

Scriptures. And so coming out of the Reformation, we have a new tradition of expositional preaching taking root.

We have Bible commentaries being produced and all of this. Well, dispensationalism is simply continuing that tradition.

And it is specifically an approach to interpreting the Scriptures.

And if I could identify the distinguishing feature of dispensationalism, it would be this.

Dispensationalism uses a single hermeneutic for all of Scripture. And that method is called originalism.

Originalism teaches that a text means what the original author intended it to mean at the time that it was written.

And so if we want to understand a particular passage of Scripture, we will look at the vocabulary, the grammar syntax, the historical and literary context of the passage in question.

And from all of that information, we will draw our interpretive conclusions. Now, covenant theology follows a slightly different approach.

Instead of using a single hermeneutic for all of Scripture, it employs a double hermeneutic.

And what I mean by that is that most of the time, covenantalists will follow the principles of originalism as I've just laid them out.

But when it comes to select portions of Scripture, particularly

Old Testament prophecies concerning the nation of Israel, covenantalists will tend to shift gears into a spiritual or an allegorical hermeneutic.

And this is what leads to the differences between dispensational

Baptists and covenantal Baptists on things like ecclesiology and eschatology, and even our philosophy of history.

It's that one of us is using originalism as a principle for all of Scripture, and the other will use originalism plus a spiritual hermeneutic at times.

Okay, so that would be your complete summary of the differences there. I think that is the essence of the difference right there.

Okay. And of course, there will likely be those who espouse covenantal theology, especially

Reformed Baptists who may disagree with that. And feel free, if you're listening, to chime in if that's the case.

This is a two -hour show that goes by very quickly, as we asked

Pastor Brandon that he needed to provide a summary. So, obviously, you came to realize that you began to view the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith as an extremely valuable tool to use as a summary of Biblical teaching.

And perhaps you, if you don't mind, say something that all confessionalists would agree upon.

There are dispensationalists who despise the very notion of using

Confessions of Faith because they think, wrongly, that it is a violation of relying upon the

God -breathed, inerrant words of Scripture alone as our authority. Of course, there are definitely people out there—and it took me a long time, actually, to meet such people, but I eventually did over the course of many years of being a

Christian since the 1980s—to meet people that do abuse Confessions.

And even though they would never in a million years say verbally, and they're probably not even conscious of it, but they definitely view the confessions that they adhere to, the confession that they adhere to, as an authority that is either equal or superior to the

Bible. But that has never been the intention of confessions, and definitely not of those wonderful, godly heroes of the faith who framed the major confessions.

So, tell us why you think it's important to have Confessions of Faith.

Oh, absolutely. So, the Scriptures offer us a comprehensive, divinely -inspired deposit of truth, and the

New Testament instructs the Church to guard that good deposit—that's 2 Timothy 1—and also to teach what accords with sound doctrine—that would be

Titus 2—and also to hold firm to the trustworthy word and rebuke those who contradict it.

And I think the Church has historically viewed the drafting of creeds and confessions as acts of obedience to these

New Testament injunctions, because they set down concise yet comprehensive summaries of what sound doctrine consists of, along with refutations of what is false.

So, it's not enough simply to say, I believe the Bible, because there are many different ways to interpret the

Bible. A Confession of Faith makes your beliefs concrete. It says, here is specifically what

I believe or what my church teaches concerning the nature of God, the person and work of Christ, the way of salvation, the proper structure and governance of the local church, and right on down through the categories of systematic theology.

So, we need Confessions of Faith to codify sound doctrine as we have come to understand it.

And beyond that, there are many, many practical benefits for adopting a Confession of Faith as an individual or a church.

Beyond codifying your convictions, it also gives witness to the world of exactly where you stand.

In a congregation, it can promote unity in belief and practice. It provides a robust foundation for inner church cooperation.

It also clarifies what is outside the bounds of orthodoxy, or at least outside the bounds of your denominational convictions.

And this establishes guidelines for church discipline and ecclesiastical separation.

Confessions also serve as good teaching tools for believers and their children to help us transmit the faith intact to the next generation.

So, no, Confessions are not meant to take the place of Scripture.

We certainly do not elevate their authority above the Scriptures. But they are efforts to summarize sound doctrine as contained in the

Scriptures, so that we might conserve those doctrines and perpetuate them.

Yes, and would you agree, as I have, I think, heard accurately and wisely, that in reality, there is no one who is non -confessional?

For instance, to say, I have no creed or confession but the

Scriptures alone, that is a creedal or a confessional statement. Once you begin in a church to list things that must be believed to be a member in good standing, and you begin to identify yourselves this way, like, for instance,

I found it humorous once, years ago, I attended a conference at the church of a friend, which happened to be a church of Christ, a part of the 19th century

Campbellite Restoration Movement. And during this conference, the speaker who was leading the conference said that we as a people have never believed in creeds and confessions.

And I raised my hand during a Q &A, and I had the church bulletin in my hand, and I began to list in the bulletin the things that that church believed were important enough to list in their bulletin as important distinctives of that church.

And I said, well, here in your bulletin, it says that your ministers are always men, they do not wear clerical garments but just wear business suits, that you baptize by immersion only, and you have the

Lord's Supper every Sunday, and you sing exclusively acapella.

And I said, this is your confession of faith, or your creed, whether you call it that or not.

Am I making sense here? Oh, absolutely. Every individual and every church has a creed or a confession, whether written or unwritten.

So the question is not whether you have a confession. The question is, what is the nature of that confession?

I mean, how much of biblical Christianity are you really conserving? And is the confession that you're holding to one that has been carefully crafted by thoughtful leaders who have worked in conference with one another?

Does it reflect the wisdom of the ages, or is it a confession that was hastily written by one person or by one church?

Is it a robust confession, or is it a truncated confession? These are the questions.

It's not whether or not somebody is holding to a confession of faith. Right. And now,

I think it's obviously the next step in this conversation has to be, you obviously love the 1689

London Baptist Confession in its original form, but being a dispensationalist, you could not publicly declare this as your official summary of the faith without an explanation of needed alterations, changes, omissions, inclusions.

What are the areas where you saw the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith in conflict with dispensationalism?

And I've always wondered why on rare occasions I have discovered

Calvinistic dispensationalist churches, especially amongst the

Calvinist landmarkers down south, because there is a strong division amongst landmark

Baptists, between those who believe in sovereign grace and those who believe in free will.

And some of those sovereign grace believing landmark churches identified the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith as their confession, and yet were premillennial, pre -tribulational

Baptists. So it was kind of interesting. So tell us, what are those areas in conflict?

Sure. Well, as you say, I love the 1689 London Baptist Confession in its original form.

The beauty of it, the majesty of its contents. And I can affirm wholeheartedly nearly all of it.

But there are just a couple of chapters that are inconsistent with a dispensational hermeneutic.

And so those are the areas that required some revision. Specifically, there were two chapters that needed to be adjusted.

Chapter 19 was the first. That's the chapter on the law of God. And in the original 1689, it says, it carves the law of Moses into moral, civil, and ceremonial parts.

And then it suggests different contemporary applications for each part. Some of it laid aside, other parts of it continuing on as a rule of life for the people of God in this age.

The dispensational perspective is a little bit different than that. Our reading of Scripture leads us to the conclusion that the law of Moses was an indivisible unity.

And that it was tied to the old covenant. So that when the old covenant came to an end, the

Mosaic law in its entirety came to an end as well. Now, does that leave us without a law in this age?

Well, of course not, because we believe that today we're under the law of Christ. But this is an area of difference between covenantal

Baptists and dispensational Baptists. And then the other major area would be the very end of the

Confession, chapter 32, which concerns the final judgment. Now, my understanding is that there were a couple of premillennialists present at the

Westminster Assembly as they drafted the Westminster Confession. And yet the chapter they composed was quite clearly amillennial in its wording.

And the Second London Baptist Confession just adopts the Westminster language verbatim into their confession.

And there are no dispensationalists who are amillennial. And so I had to reword that final chapter to give it a premillennial ending.

So those are the two big changes. And then an astute reader might notice a small tweak in wording here and there throughout the

Confession. For example, instead of using the phrase covenant of grace in some places,

I will simply use the word grace or God's grace. There are some dispensationalists who are comfortable with the idea of a covenant of grace.

But most are uncomfortable using the word covenant to describe anything unless it's explicitly identified as a covenant in Scripture.

So, Noahic covenant, Abrahamic covenant, Davidic covenant, and so forth. And so I tweaked that wording a little bit as well.

But those were just about the only changes that had to be made. Now, I'd like to announce right here that I have heard about some covenantal

Reformed Baptists who have the 1689 as their official standard of faith who are bothered by what you have done.

And to me, and I know that some people might be upset with me for saying this, I think that's absurd.

Are you willing to go unquestioned,

Presbyterians who have the same view about us? Because, after all, the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith is nearly identical to the Westminster Confession and was purposely copied nearly in its entirety with exceptions that required a

Baptistic altering with regard to the ordinances or sacraments.

And church polity. So, if you are going to be upset about what my guest has done, in reality, you shouldn't even be using the 1689

Confession at all then. What do you have to say? Have you heard of any direct opposition about this?

Yes, I've heard some, and I've interacted with some of those people online. And I would just reaffirm exactly what you have said, that the second

London Baptist Confession was first drafted in 1677.

Now, when it was drafted, it was essentially the Westminster Confession of Faith with just a few revisions to make it compatible with Baptist ecclesiology.

And then when the General Assembly of particular Baptists gathered in 1689, they adopted that 1677

Confession with some minor tweaks along the way. And then after the 1689

London Baptist Confession crossed the Atlantic, came to the States, it underwent some further revisions.

Up north, it was renamed the Philadelphia Confession. And down south, it was renamed the

Charleston Confession. And there were some additional paragraphs added, for example, on psalm singing and the laying on of hands.

And so I think it's perfectly in keeping with the spirit of our Baptist heritage to take a really, really good confession of faith and to labor to make it even better.

To try to make it align even more closely with Scripture, at least as we understand it.

And so that's what I've done, what I've at least attempted to do with my confession.

And I see no problem with that from a historical or from a theological perspective.

And in fact, if you love the doctrines of sovereign grace, a .k .a. Reformed theology, you're going to want as many people as possible to get it into their hands, even if you have differences with them on less important matters.

So I don't get the problem at all that people would have. But we have to get to our midway break right now.

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Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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Before I returned to my guest, Brandon James Crawford, and our conversation on the

Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches, I have some important announcements.

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And last but not least, if you're not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally sound, theologically solid church, like Grace Baptist Church of Marshall, Michigan, well,

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically sound churches, and I've helped many people in our audience in all parts of the world find churches that are biblically faithful.

Sometimes they're just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too, no matter where in the world you live.

If you are without a church home that's biblically faithful, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

Brandon James Crawford, and please ask a question that is specifically connected with our conversation on the

Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches. So, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us a first name at least. City and state of residence and country of residence.

We do have a listener from Greg in Umatilla, and I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly,

U -M -A -T -I -L -L -A, Florida. Greg writes, As one

Baptist to another, I have a question concerning the theological covenants espoused in the 1689.

I use that term to distinguish them from the actual espoused inscripturated covenants.

Knowing that the scriptures do not speak of, in writing, the theological covenants, in parentheses he has covenants of redemption, covenant of works, covenant of grace, and thus being, no doubt, things that you have nixed from this update.

Do you, however, think that those theological covenants are beneficial as descriptors of biblical realities and expressions of how the overall plotline of the history of salvation can be understood insofar as they are not placed above the actual written covenants in their plain language and are understood to be doctrinal classifications?

I ask this because I am one who affirms the 1689 and the theological covenants from a

Baptist perspective, but I treat them as theological classifications and expressions to help make sense of the scarlet thread of salvation and its continuity between the scriptures.

I am also one who is sensitive to the dispensationalist argument that we must not place theological constructs over the plain language of the text of scripture, hence why

I am a premillennialist, though not pre -Trib, and believe in a future restoration of national ethnic

Israel. And if you need any of that repeated, Brandon, that was obviously a very long and detailed question, but can you, and there's probably more than one question in there, if you could respond to the best of your ability and I'll repeat anything that you want.

Oh, I'm sorry, I have my guest on mute. Sorry about that, Brandon. It's okay, and I appreciate the question.

I think I've understood the essence of it. Dispensationalists have had a difference of opinion concerning the labels covenant of redemption, covenant of works, and covenant of grace.

Some dispensational Christians have had no qualms about using that terminology.

Even Louis Sperry Chaffer, in his multi -volume systematic, has a section in there in which he provides an exposition of those three covenants, but then he also has an exposition of seven dispensations.

So he found a way to incorporate both into his one systematic theology.

And so you will find that, and I think as long as we understand that those terms are describing theological constructs rather than actual literal or historical covenants, then we're on good ground.

For my own part, I'm a little uncomfortable using the language of covenant of redemption, works, and grace, simply because I think that the scriptures themselves would restrict our use of the word covenant more than that.

So in my view, in order to call something a covenant, I like to see a clear declaration of scripture that a covenant relationship actually exists.

So I want to see the scriptures themselves saying, this is a covenantal relationship.

I also like to see the use of covenantal language in the text, words such as I will.

Biblical covenants also outline specific promises, terms, and conditions that detail what's expected from the parties involved.

There's a mutual understanding or agreement between those parties about the terms and conditions. And at least in the case of suzerainty covenants, there are clearly stated blessings and equally clear consequences if the covenant is breached by one or both parties.

And I'm just not sure that we can find all of those qualifiers in the covenant of redemption, the covenant of works, or grace.

I would be more comfortable referring to what happened in eternity past between the members of the

Trinity as perhaps God's eternal decree concerning the salvation of mankind.

I might be more comfortable with words like promise, pledge, order, commands, prohibitions, rather than describing him with that very technical legal term covenant.

But again, this is not a hill for us to die on. And if there's a believer out there who would like to continue using those terms, even if he identifies as a dispensational

Christian, we should not have any real problems with that. Okay, Greg, please give me your full mailing address in Umatilla, Florida, if that is in fact the way you pronounce that.

And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, will mail to you a free copy of the

Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for dispensational churches, compliments of our friends at the publisher,

Ambassador International, who have provided us with a limited number of free copies to send to listeners like you who have submitted questions.

Thanks a lot, brother. Okay, we have another listener, and that is

Jay in Litchfield, Michigan. And Jay says, by the way, how far is

Litchfield, Michigan from Marshall, Michigan? We're only about 45 minutes apart.

Okay, well maybe Jay will come and visit you if he hasn't already. The Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for dispensational churches adopts the language of the 1689

Confession exactly for matters of public theology, such as Chapter 23 and 24.

Is there any point at which the Confession's understanding of public theology might come into conflict with pre -tribulational, pre -millennialism's doctrine of the imminency of the rapture?

You touched on this earlier, I believe, although I don't know if you emphasized the conflict regarding the imminency, because there are amillennialists who believe in the imminent return of Christ, although they have a very different understanding of the rapture.

But if you could respond to our listener. Okay. There is a difference of opinion among dispensationalists concerning the exact nature and timing of the rapture.

And so the confession that I drafted allows for differences of opinion on those issues.

But dispensational thought does have an impact on our public theology in the sense that we see the kingdom of God as something future, not something present.

All dispensationalists, except progressive dispensationalists, would say that Christ will not sit on the

Davidic throne until after he returns and physically rules over the nations.

And so as churches, we would not see our role to be to build the kingdom.

Rather, it would be to make citizens for that coming kingdom. So we are building the church, not necessarily building the kingdom.

But in terms of our public witness, there would not be significant differences between us,

I don't think. Okay, Jay. You sound like you have the book already.

So I'm going to leave it up to you. If you want me to give this to another listener, let me know.

Or if you want to pass it on to somebody else, if indeed you already have it, I will ship it out to you so you can share it with somebody.

But I'm going to need your full mailing address in Litchfield, Michigan, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

can ship the book out to you. And once again, we want to thank Emerald Ambassadors International for sending out these copies to us.

Can you be a dispensationalist and not be pre -tribulational?

I know that you can't be a historic premill. But can you be, like, for instance, a post -tribulationalist, a pre -wrath rapturist, and still be considered a dispensationalist, mid -tribulationalist?

Yes. So the majority of dispensationalists would be pre -tribulational. But you will find pre -wrath, mid -tribulation, and post -tribulation dispensationalists.

And the Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches would allow you to hold any of those views and still be able to fully adopt this confession.

Just out of curiosity, I asked earlier if you had any negative feedback from covenantal brethren.

Have you come into contact with any opposers to what you have done who are dispensationalists, especially if they are anti -Calvinist and anti -confessional?

I've not had any direct confrontation with those kinds of people. And I think that's because I travel in circles that are, you know, not just dispensational, but they're

Calvinistic and, you know, line up just about where I do on other matters of theology and practice.

And so the response that I've gotten from the dispensational Baptists that I know is overwhelming enthusiasm.

And I've received emails and messages through Facebook, in fact, from all over the world, from people telling me how excited they are by this.

Some are buying it up in bulk so they can distribute it to their households within their churches or use it for Sunday school lessons.

Some are using it for their new church plants. And so the overwhelming reaction has been excitement that this is available to them.

And just out of curiosity, in my life as a born -again believer, having been saved out of the

Roman Catholic Church in the 1980s, and having been saved by God's good providence in a

Reformed Baptist church throughout the decades, perhaps even especially because I've been employed in Christian radio for the majority of my adult life, actually the majority of my life period,

I have come in contact with many dispensationalists of all different stripes.

The majority of them would range from being not

Calvinistic to being vehemently anti -Calvinistic, to a minority being

Calvinistic, like one of my modern -day heroes, John MacArthur, and other folks affiliated with Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, where he pastors and the

Master's Seminary. I have some dear friends who are thoroughgoing

Calvinists who are also equally as staunch in their dispensationalism. My dear friend

Ron Glass, former pastor of Wading River Baptist Church on Long Island, is actually the key person involved in bringing

Iron Trip and Zion Radio back on the air in 2015, after I moved from New York to Pennsylvania.

He was one of my advertisers when I was on Long Island, and he wanted me to relaunch the show after moving here because he advertised with me and wanted to begin doing that again.

And even though he knew that I was not dispensational, he loved the show, but he was a staunch dispensationalist and Calvinist.

But those would be in the minority. Do I have an unusual experience?

According to your experience and knowledge of history, was Calvinism always at least a part of the dispensationalist history, starting with Darby?

Was it ever prominent or at least something close to 50 %?

Or tell us about the relationship between the two systems. Sure.

So dispensationalism actually arose from within the

Reformed movement. Darby himself was a leader in the

Church of Ireland, which was affiliated with the Anglican Church, before separating from that church to establish the

Plymouth Brethren. But many of the early dispensationalists were also

Presbyterians, Congregationalists, others of a strong Calvinistic bent.

And I don't know precisely when it happened that the majority of dispensationalists began to embrace

Arminianism. I wonder if it's partly the result of Dallas Theological Seminary and its influence.

For a while they had a number of guys who were dispensational and who were strongly

Arminian or even semi -Pelagian in their outlook. And they had tremendous influence over the evangelical

Christian world. In fact, at one time you could not be a five -point Calvinist and be on the faculty at Dallas.

In fact, S. Lewis Johnson, a beloved hero of many, lost his position there over his adoption of limited or definite atonement.

Yeah, and because of the size and influence of Dallas Seminary in mid to late 20th century, that could be where the turning point was reached.

But as you noted, even now there are institutions that are strongly

Calvinistic, that feel most at home within the Reformed tradition, and yet who espouse a dispensational hermeneutic.

So John MacArthur, the Master's Seminary would be the most prominent examples.

But there are others too. Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary would be one. And you'll find those scattered across the country.

Okay, we have, let's see, we have

Lancaster, just like the city in Pennsylvania. And Lancaster is located in East Mariches, Long Island.

And he wants to know how closely affiliated are you, if at all, with New Covenant theology?

And if you could please give us a summary definition of that. I have many friends in that camp and have had many representatives of that system of thought on my show.

But if you could provide a summary of what they believe and answer the question of Lancaster and East Mariches.

Well, I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with New Covenant theology to be able to speak too authoritatively on that.

I know they share some similarities with dispensational thought in seeing the law of Moses as an indivisible unity that was fulfilled in Christ.

But I think there are some differences yet in the relationship between the church and, say, the kingdom of God and some differences in eschatology there.

But I am very happy to count some brothers who are

New Covenant to be my good friends. Yeah, Lancaster, from my understanding of the differences,

New Covenant theologians would share a lot in common with both

Covenant theologians and dispensationalists. The difference between the

Covenant theology folks would be that they believe that the Decalogue was only intended for the nation of Israel, but Christ reinstituted nine of the

Ten Commandments in the New Covenant. So, therefore, it's really a Sabbath issue. New Covenant theology folks do not believe that Sunday is the

Sabbath. They believe Christ is the Sabbath and there is no Sabbath day anymore. And they differ on the importance of Sunday being the day of worship.

There are some who agree that Sunday is uniquely set apart as the

Lord's Day and should be the day that all churches gather, among other days, but the most important day for corporate worship.

Whereas others believe if your church decides to meet every Tuesday instead, they have no problem with that.

They are different than dispensationalists on a number of levels. They agree with Covenant theologians in that the church is the spiritual fulfillment of physical

Israel and you'll have varying opinions on that. And they're primarily amillennialists and historic premillennialists in New Covenant theology.

And that's about all I can say right now as far as my own understanding.

And I think people on both the Covenant theology side and the

New Covenant theology side on occasion make a lot bigger a deal of our differences than I believe there should be.

I live in complete harmony with brethren in both camps. And I have always grieved over the sharp, hard tension that exists among some people in either camp.

So, anyway, that's my two cents. Oh, and Lancaster, please give us your full name and your complete mailing address in East Mauritius, Long Island, New York.

And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com will mail you a free copy of the book we are addressing,

The Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches by our guest

Brandon James Crawford. And just out of curiosity, are there any other documents that you see as possibly adding to this volume?

I'll give you an example. I know that there is a Baptist version of the

Belgic Confession, which has primarily retained a

Covenant theology flavor. Are there anything else like that that you would consider incorporating into a dispensationalist volume?

I'd not considered going beyond what I have done here. The 1689

London Baptist Confession is by far the most popular of all of the

Baptist Confessions, among Calvinistic Baptists at least. And this was the one that I was eager to get into the hands of dispensational

Baptists. Perhaps there will be time to tackle some of those other projects in the future, though.

All right, well, we're going to our final break. And if you would like to join the conversation with questions of your own, please send them in very quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters, of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to Him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

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Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit LindbrookBaptist .org.

That's L -Y -N -BrookBaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast of the

Lord's blessing and knowledge of himself. And I want to give a big thanks to Lindbrook Baptist Church in Lindbrook, Long Island, because during this live show,

I just heard word that they are renewing their advertising contract with us.

So I want to thank Pastor Keith Allen, Elder Sal D 'Antona, and all of the wonderful saints at Lindbrook Baptist Church for loving

Iron Trip and Zion Radio so much that you share some of the financial blessing with which the

Lord has blessed you with us at Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Thank you so much, and I can never thank you enough.

I also want to make sure that everybody listening knows that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

Associates. If you're the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

United States, call my dear friend, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, Attorney at Law of the law firm

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Buttafuoco & Associates, from Chris Arnzen and Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And lastly,

I want to remind you that my former church on Long Island, New York, before moving to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York, invites you to their

Courageous Marriage Conference. That's this Friday and Saturday, August 23rd and 24th at Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick.

This event features a best -selling author, Dr. Joe Rigney.

And if you would like to register or find out more about this Courageous Marriage Conference, go to gracereformedbaptistchurch .org,

gracereformedbaptistchurch .org. And I need to make a quick correction of something that I said before the break.

I accidentally said that there is a Reformed Baptist version of the

Belgic Confession. Well, I knew it was something from the Three Forms of Unity, but I got it wrong.

It's the Heidelberg Catechism that has a Reformed Baptist version, or a particular

Baptist version, called An Orthodox Catechism by Hercules Collins.

And you can get this particular Baptist version of the Heidelberg Catechism at solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com. Okay, let's see here.

We have a listener in Copeg, Long Island, New York, Trudy.

And Trudy wants to know, In all your time at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary or other interactions with those who prefer covenant theology over dispensationalism, have any of their arguments almost swayed you to switch sides?

Well, I did not spend any time really debating dispensationalism and covenant theology with my classmates or my professors at PRTS.

I was there to study historical theology, and so those were the topics that we addressed.

But I did find professors and students alike to have very well -considered theological positions, and I was really introduced to the

Second London Confession through my time at that seminary, and so I have that to be grateful for.

And I have found myself using some of the language of the

London Baptist Confession in my sermons and in writings, and so there has certainly been some influence there.

Okay, I have a question of my own that sort of relates to that. I've been wondering for all my life as a

Bornegan believer, having known people on both sides of the fence, dispensationalists and covenant theology folks, and new covenant theology folks, and progressive covenant theology folks, which is a newer phenomenon, why is it, in your opinion, and maybe you even disagree with what

I'm about to say, but very rarely have I ever heard of somebody who was a believer in covenant theology who has converted to dispensationalism, and I would include in that I very rarely ever heard of a non -millennialist becoming a pre -tribulationalist, with the exception of very recently, although he was never a

Calvinist, Max Lucado, for all of his life, was an amillennialist, and he has recently become a pre -mill, pre -trib, which surprised me, but like I said, he was never a

Calvinist. But can you answer that? What is your opinion on that? And do you even agree with that assessment?

Yeah, it seems like the direction is more often in moving from dispensationalism to covenant theology rather than the other way around.

There are exceptions to that. Here within my own congregation, I've managed to persuade a few who arrived at the church as amillennialists to become pre -mill, so that does happen once in a while, but I think the real appeal of covenant theology is in its historical pedigree.

It's in the fact that we have these wonderful confessions of faith and catechisms that are written from the perspective of covenant theology, and that so many of the best systematic theologies available are written from a covenantal perspective, that this has had a drawing effect for people.

And I think that there are segments of dispensational Christianity that are not particularly robust theologically, that are not particularly interested in church history or historical theology, and there are the elements that are

Arminian. And so I think all of that has kind of tended to move people in the direction of covenant theology more than the other way around.

I hope that what I have done here with the Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches is to show believers that we can have a dispensational hermeneutic and still be firmly grounded in the broader

Reformed tradition, that we can claim that tradition as our own. We have a couple of distinctives about us, but we can still claim that tradition, and I hope that this will serve to ground people a little better on our side of the camp.

Well, in a minute, can you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners? Well, let me say that I'm so grateful for the time that you've given me today, and more than anything,

I'd like to emphasize what we have in common rather than what divides us.

Amen. I mean, Dispensational Baptists and Covenantal Baptists alike adore the

Scriptures as our ultimate authority. We love the early creeds of the Church.

We together affirm the five solas of the Protestant Reformation. We together affirm the doctrines of grace, and we together believe that all people in all places and at all times have been saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

And let us enjoy fellowship on that basis. Amen. And I want to repeat the website of Grace Baptist Church of Marshall, Michigan, gracebaptistmarshall .com,

gracebaptistmarshall .com. And if you want to get a hold of the Baptist Confession of Faith and Catechism for Dispensational Churches, you can go to our friends at Ambassador International, the publishers, ambassador -international .com,

ambassador -international .com. I want to thank you for being such a wonderful guest.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives, Jesus Christ is the far greater