May 24, 2018 Show with Michael Anthony on “A Call for Courage: Living with Power, Truth & Love in an Age of Intolerance & Fear”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 24th day of May 2018.

I am so delighted to have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, someone who was recently recommended to me by Gregory Wrightstone.

You may remember his recent interview on his book, Inconvenient Facts, the science that Al Gore doesn't want you to know.

Well, Greg, immediately after our interview, very enthusiastically and urgently recommended that I contact

Michael Anthony, who is our guest today. He's a popular blogger, a speaker, and founder of the

National Week of Repentance. And he's the pastor at Grace Fellowship of York, Pennsylvania, and host of the

God Factor radio broadcast. Today we are going to be addressing his book, A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an

Age of Intolerance and Fear. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Michael Anthony.

Chris, it's a great honor to be on your program. You have a great program. You're doing a great job. And it's something that, just a real honor.

Hello to all your listeners. Well, I appreciate that very much, and I'll give our listeners right away our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Michael Anthony of your own.

Our email address is chrisarntzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And before we go into your personal testimony of salvation, Michael, as we typically do when we have a first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, why don't you let our listeners know something about Grace Fellowship of York, Pennsylvania?

Yeah, Grace Fellowship in York, it's off of Seven Valleys Road. It's probably, Chris, the most common name for any church,

Grace Fellowship. But our website makes it easy to make a distinction, graceyork .com

is the website. And it would be considered a house church down in Texas.

Our church is maybe about 1 ,000 or so, right? A little chapel, huh?

Yeah, and I love being here, and I love feeding the sheep, the pure unadulterated teaching from God's Word, and doing it in a way, whether it's here at the church or anything

I try to produce, I do it in a way that speaks to the issues of the day. And I love being a shepherd, it's a real privilege.

Great. Well, I am delighted to have you on the program, and I take very seriously strong recommendations of people that I highly value.

And so, I'm glad that Brother Wrightstone highly recommended you to be on the program.

And also, I want to make sure that you give my greetings to Bill Shania, who

I know is a member there for the, or who is the owner and founder of Academy for Media Production, AMP.

Yes, he does a great job. Yeah, and if you could extend my invitation to him, I would appreciate that very much.

Sure thing. To also tell our listeners who may be unfamiliar with your radio broadcast, God Factor, tell us something about that.

Yeah, it's my straightforward expository Bible teaching. So if people like deep Bible teaching, they can listen to the

God Factor radio broadcast, or they can also get it if they go to CourageMatters .com,

or they download the free Courage Matters app. But my, whether it's on the radio program, or a podcast, or even in my blog,

I'm always looking for ways to stay true to the Word of God, and to bring its timeless truths to bear on the ever -changing situations that we face in the world.

So it's always a privilege to just try to accurately communicate the Word of God so that people know, here's what's next for me in my spiritual journey.

Now that I know what the Word says, now I know what I need to do in response. That's what it's all about.

And CourageMatters .com, that's also where you blog, am I right? Yeah, I blog, and my media appearances are there.

I write for a multiplicity of outlets, often on, whether it's television or radio.

So they can find all of that on CourageMatters .com, or with the free Courage Matters app. It's all there.

Great. Well, before we go into our main theme today, A Call for Courage, which is also the title of your book, as I mentioned,

I want you, as I typically do with our first -time guests, to give a summary of your salvation testimony, the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what the providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord used in your life to draw you to Himself and save you. Sure. Well, I think one of the biggest things that my life is a testimony to is anybody who wonders if God has a sense of humor doesn't have to wonder anymore.

I think it's one of the funniest things in the world that God made me a pastor. It's a privilege to try to serve

Jesus, and an honor, and I was dragged kicking and screaming into the ministry.

It's not something I fought to do. I was raised Roman Catholic in an Italian Roman Catholic family, to boot.

I was an altar boy, considered the priesthood probably for about 24 hours until I got married.

Exactly. My brother, my oldest brother, John, went to a private high school specifically for young men desiring to enter into the priesthood, but they kicked him out because he started dating girls and wouldn't stop.

At least he found out before he was a priest. That would have created a bit of remorse,

I'm sure. I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, always thought that works was the issue, and my older brother came to know

Christ first. I was preparing for most of my life through high school, anticipating going to college and becoming a lawyer.

I wanted to become a criminal trial attorney, a trial lawyer. My family knew that I was a debater.

I was always somewhat naturally adept at debating. My brother came to know Christ, and my mother,

I remember, put me on the phone one day to talk him out of it. By the time I got off the phone, I said, you know,

Mom, what he said made a lot of sense. Not long after that, I had a calculus teacher in high school,

Dave Nace, and I was also one of the editors of the yearbook. I was always staying after school, either to work on the yearbook or mostly on math because I am one of those math -challenged people, if you know what

I mean. He was sharing his faith openly with other students, and I made it like I wasn't listening, but I was.

One day, when everybody else was gone, I started asking questions, and he helped me understand. He shared with me through the

Roman's Road that it's salvation by grace alone through faith in Jesus, that it can't be works, it can only be either works or faith through grace.

And he said over a period of days, finally he said, you know enough, you need to make a decision. I said, ah, I gasped.

I said, oh, he's making me make a decision. Went home and realized my sin like never before, and became conscious of sin like it had never before, and accepted

Christ as my Savior. Didn't understand anything about discipleship, went off to Rutgers College to pursue the dream of being a criminal trial attorney, and through the process of going there, really didn't feel like following Jesus, Chris.

I'm just going to be honest with you. And the irony of ironies is when I got to Rutgers University at Rutgers College in New Brunswick, New Jersey, I was super depressed when

I got to the third floor of the Tinsley Dormitory and my floor advisor was a guy who had transferred from another college and ended up being my floor advisor.

He was a believer, and it was my older brother. Wow. Yeah, my plans were foiled.

I just thought I'd join a fraternity. I didn't understand anything about surrender to Jesus in terms of discipleship, and it was the sovereign hand of God that was protecting me and keeping me.

And so my freshman year and my sophomore years of college were up and down where finally

God began to get a hold of me more, and I began to understand the idea of the teachings sanctification and surrender.

So that's that's how I got saved. And then about my end of my sophomore year,

I woke up one day without the desire to be a criminal trial attorney, and I just thought, well

I'll use some of the same things that I would use to be a criminal trial attorney for a ministry. And that's when

I began to get an inkling of serving the Lord in ministry, even though it didn't happen for a number of years.

That was a turning point for me. Well, praise God. In fact, I've got to get into your hands a biography that I think that you will love, because there is some mirroring with your testimony.

It's called A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cohn, who in the 1800s was the pastor of First Baptist Church of Manhattan, and he was a theater actor, he was a lawyer, he was a teacher, he was a war hero in the

War of 1812, and he finally became a pastor. But it's interesting how in regard to the vocations he was pursuing, acting, stage acting, of course back then there was no film, and then of course teaching and being an attorney, and then the

Lord threw him for a loop and he became a pastor, and it's quite a remarkable biography.

I've got to get you a copy of it. Well, I'd be privileged. I'd love to look at that. Thank you. Well, now we are going to discuss this book that has a very intriguing title and theme,

A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an Age of Intolerance and Fear.

And we who are Christians, we sit back, we watch what's going on in the media, and some of us are personally experiencing things that many of us never dreamed would ever be happening in the land of the free, in the home of the brave.

Right. You have people losing their livelihoods just because they are sticking to their

Christian convictions not to promote or celebrate things like homosexuality, and there are all kinds of things that are going on.

What was the the catalyst that basically drove you to write this book? During the 2016 election, during that whole process leading up to it,

I turned to my wife and I said, I must write. I am compelled to write, and she said, go for it.

So the only problem is I need some place to go to write this, and I needed to sequester myself.

So I was going to write a book. The working title was How to Stand Up and Speak Out in a Sit -Down -Shut -Up

World. That was the working title. I like that! I really like that a lot, actually. Yeah, and I'm grateful that Thomas Nelson believed in me to, you know, bring me on as first -time author with them.

There were other publishers interested as well, but we went with Thomas Nelson and loved working with Thomas Nelson.

Great, great publisher. So right around that same time, a couple from my church,

I had never written before in terms of a book. I had done blogs. I had been on radio, television, and stuff, but hadn't written.

And right around that same time, a couple from my church came up out of the blue, and they said, hey, we have a cabin that's in a fairly remote place.

If you ever want to write, you can use it. I said, as a matter of fact, I'd like to do that. Booked this time to go to the cabin.

So the idea was I was going to write a book proposal. I was going to learn how to write a book proposal.

I was going to write some sample chapters. I was going to then get a literary agent and then have the agent find me a publisher, because these days without an agent, it's very difficult to get published by a reputable author.

Well, booked time at the cabin, and then about a week or two later, and I talk about this in the introduction to A Call for Courage, I got an unsolicited email from a literary agency saying, hey, we saw your interview on CNN and been listening to you, watching your stuff, reading your stuff.

We're just wondering, have you ever thought about writing a book, writing books? And I got it on the day of the anniversary of my mother's birthday.

Her mother is no longer with us. She's with the Lord. And I began to read this email. I was at home, realized that it was a legitimate email.

My wife was there. My boys were there. I said, everybody, you need to sit down. I need to read this to you. And we began to cry, because we knew that God was doing something.

Had a Skype interview with the agency the next week. The following week or two after that,

I was in the cabin, banged out, spent six days in the cabin, banged out the first draft, came back, gave it to my literary agent.

She said, when did you write this? I said, last week. She said, what do you mean last week? I said, I wrote it last week.

I told you I was going to a cabin. She said, you wrote in six days. It takes people six months to a year to write.

Wow. I said, well, you know, I just felt compelled. And there were times in that cabin,

Chris, when I was stiff, my elbows, my fingers, my knees, because I was glued to my chair, banging away on my

MacBook. I was compelled to write it. And the reason why, because I got tired of the talking heads on television, on the radio, simply talking about the bad condition and the wrong direction that the country was headed.

And nobody was providing solutions. And if I can be very honest, the same could be said of many of my brothers and sisters in Christ, in Christian leadership positions, who are only talking about the bad condition of the nation and not providing solutions.

So what I wanted to do was write a handbook, a practical how -to handbook, that lives up to the title,

Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an Age of Intolerance and Fear. And now the official title is, that's the subtitle, the official title is, of course,

A Call for Courage. And it's a how -to handbook, how to live in the new world of disorder that has become

America. Well, you basically are giving a call to your readers to develop secret weapons that God has given us for courage, and you lay them out.

If you could please give us some examples of what you're talking about. Right, secret weapons hidden in plain sight, that's one of the chapters in A Call for Courage.

And in that, I help the readers rediscover those who are followers of Jesus Christ, rediscover three weapons that have been given to us by the

Lord, one of which is the Holy Spirit, another is the Word of God, but then the third, which we don't often understand and put into practice, is intentionality.

You know, there were 6 ,000 Pharisees in Jesus' day, and not one of them was chosen to be among the Twelve Apostles, not one.

If you're gonna start a religious movement and you're going to change the world with religion, you know, true religion at the epicenter, you would think those who have been around, who knew the

Old Testament inside and out, would be part of that plan. Now, we know the Apostle Paul later on gets drafted, right, and writes as no other single

New Testament author writes the majority of the books in the New Testament in comparison. But there's something to be said about the

Pharisees being sidestepped as writers of the New Testament and as those among the

Twelve Apostles. And I think that's a great reminder for us today that it's not just your

Bible knowledge that's going to bring about that, what I talk about in the book, a revolution of courageous humility, it's the application of the

Bible you know. And that's one of the great needs of the day in the evangelical community, is for us not to be content with simply knowing the

Bible, but knowing God to such a degree as a result of knowing the Bible, that we are actually walking in a lifestyle of repentance.

So in Secret Weapons, in that chapter of the book, one of many places throughout the book where I'm trying to help people understand the practicality of what courageous humility looks like,

I just lay it out for people and say, listen, these are things that are already at your disposal that you probably have belittled or overlooked, that if you stop overlooking them and you rediscover them or perhaps discover them for the first time, your revolution will be on underway and it'll change your family, it'll change your business, it'll change your church, and you know what?

It'll actually change the nation. Yes, well a lot of times

Christians act just like the world when they think that our political heroes are going to change our nation.

They think perhaps that just their political activism itself is sufficient to change a nation, but transformed hearts and minds is really what is required for a nation to be changed.

Absolutely. It is, absolutely, and with that I would say, you know, that Christians are among the first people to talk about separation of church and state not being something that we endorse, right?

We don't embrace the separation of church and state. We might have time to go into, you know, what's hot in the news today with Sam Blackledge, the student, the valedictorian student who was forbidden to use

Jesus Christ in his valedictorian speech. You know, we might address that if you want, if you want to explore that, but you know, we as evangelical

Christians are among the first who are the biggest culprits of separation of church and state, where we have every opportunity to bring

Jesus into the workplace, the marketplace, the public arena, and yet we we shy back from that, and we were not living as salt and light to the degree to which we could or we should.

Now in the same time, all the solutions to our problems are spiritual in nature, so that you can't put a political band -aid on a spiritual problem.

So if we think that the solutions are political, we're not going deep enough. But if we think that God has called us not to be engaged in politics, we haven't gone far enough either.

There's no area of life where the Christian is commanded to stay out of. Right, in fact, in fact, what you are describing, in reality, unbeknownst to most people it seems, what you are describing is a separation of church and state, because Thomas Jefferson, who came up with the phrase, or the concept, was really trying to appease

Baptists that America was not going to establish a religion that would rob people of their religious freedom.

And people who are constantly chiming with the mantra separation of church and state, they are actually violating that principle because they want the state to interfere with people's private religious faith and so on.

Personal religious faith, I should say, because nobody's faith should be private. If it's private, then it's not worth anything.

Right, it's not real faith. As Jesus said, you're the salt of the earth, but if your salt loses its saltiness, it's good for nothing.

So what does salt do? It penetrates and saturates. It changes something that would otherwise be bland or distasteful.

Salt changes it. And Jesus says to his followers, you're the salt of the earth in Matthew chapter 5.

You're referring to Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. Yes, yes.

People need to understand, I talk about this in the book, the context of that statement. Which, by the way, is not in the

Constitution. It's not in the Declaration of Independence. It's not in the Bill of Rights. Right. Separation of church. The only thing that's in the

Constitution is that we will not establish a religion. Exactly, exactly.

And the context was, remember, the King of England, he was the head of the church and the political world.

And the new America, you know, this great experiment that became America, which was a successful experiment at that, they wanted to ensure that there wouldn't be centralized power in a figurehead or a new federal government, which had not been experienced before.

Remember, that we're a democratic republic. We're not a democracy. We're a democratic republic.

The United States of America. It's a unique thing. At least in the beginning, it was a unique thing, right?

In fact, it used to be, the phrase used to be, these United States of America. Mm -hmm. And they wanted to make sure that there was not an abuse of power at this newly formed federal government that had not existed before, and that history didn't repeat itself.

And that's why the First Amendment is first on purpose. From the First Amendment, all the other amendments rise or fall.

And again, not to assume that people understand what the First Amendment is, but it's this.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. It's called the Establishment Clause.

Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. People often forget that. Or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people to peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The First Amendment is first on purpose because that is what defines this experiment, which became

America. There is no America without the First Amendment. By the way, the First Amendment doesn't give us these rights.

It recognizes these rights given to us, unalienable rights given to us by God.

Amen. Yeah. And we have already some listeners waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

Oh, that's great. We have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who says, what would you say is a bigger impediment in the church to defending truth?

Fear of confrontation generally, or fear of confrontation due to lack of preparedness?

Or is it the worse yet problem of apathy? Great question,

Gordy. I'm really glad that you asked that question. You know, I don't think it's any of those. Am I allowed to take it even deeper and higher?

Oh, of course. I don't think it's either of those. I think that it is fear of self -rejection.

I think the sin of self -protection has neutered the church spiritually.

That we, without realizing it, Christianity in the United States has subtly become influenced as a religion that is more concerned about popularity with people than it is faithfulness to God.

Amen. Amen. That's what I think is the number one problem. We're more concerned with being popular with people.

And we look at the Apostles' cry in the book of Acts, when they were told to defy

Jesus and stop preaching and teaching about his name. And they said, we must obey God rather than man.

And we look at that and we say, yeah, look at the Apostles. And then we close our Bibles and we don't follow their example, do we?

Because we're more concerned about being popular with people than we are in being faithful to God.

Biblically, if we are faithful to God, we will please the people we're supposed to please. And those people that we don't please, as a result of being faithful to God, doesn't matter, does it?

So we've got a bad case, generally speaking. Generally speaking, I'm painting with a broad brush here, but we have a bad case of being too concerned about the opinions of people in the body of Christ in the

United States of America. Well, I want you, we're going to our first station break right now, actually,

Michael, and I want you to listen to the words of the first advertisement, because it's as if the pastor who is speaking in this ad, promoting

Providence Baptist Church in Norfolk, Massachusetts, it's as if you two collaborated on the script for his ad.

I'm not familiar with this. I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, by the way,

Gordy, I forgot to mention to you, you have won a free copy of A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an

Age of Intolerance and Fear by our guest Michael Anthony, host of the God Factor radio broadcast, and this is a beautiful hardback book, and I know that you live, since you're in Mechanicsburg, you live minutes away from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who sponsors this show.

You could actually drive by there tomorrow and pick up your copy, unless you want them to mail it to you, but you're gonna save them a few dollars in shipping fees if you drive by there and pick it up yourself.

But we're gonna be going to our first break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, and we will get to all of you that time will allow.

We have some of you still waiting, and I know that, but if anybody wants to get in line and have their question asked and answered, please send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with these messages from our sponsors.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do, than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

TV program entitled, Resting in Grace. You can find us at Providence Baptist Church, MA .org,

that's Providence Baptist Church, MA .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

Eastern time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Michael Anthony, popular speaker and blogger at CourageMatters .com,

founder of the National Week of Repentance, author, lead pastor at Grace Fellowship of York, Pennsylvania, and host of the

God Factor radio broadcast. We are talking about his new book, A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an

Age of Intolerance and Fear. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and Michael, we have a listener in Slovenia named

Joe. Hi, Joe. And Joe says, thanks be to God for the courage he gives you to lead his people in these trying times.

Please speak about how we should be prepared to address those within the church who are aggressively pushing the

Marxist -based agendas of multiculturalism, critical race theory, and egalitarianism.

The church today is facing pressures to adopt ethnic metrics and affirmative action formulas to achieve racial and gender diversity in membership and leadership, regardless of sound biblical doctrine.

What should we do and not do in the debate over these issues? Wow, fantastic question.

That's worthy of a broadcast right there. Well, first off, Joe, you understand that from being in Slovenia, you understand that the

Marxist agenda is basically a veneer of Christian teaching without the power of God or the motive of glorifying

God. At the end of the day, Marxism is about control, controlling people's lives and making them subservient to the new

God of government. Marxism is nothing other than making the government

God. That's what it is. And that's one of the things that deeply concerns me about what's happening in the

United States of America when you have a well -intentioned but misdirected person such as Bernie Sanders who's presenting socialism as the cure to what ails us as a nation.

And it doesn't. It's contradictory. Socialism is not only incompatible with the

Constitution, it's also incompatible with biblical teaching because it makes the government, it puts the government in a role that no government should have.

Only God has the role of leading the people. So to your question, Joe, about the

Marxist agenda and how do you deal with that in regard to people in the church embracing it,

I think the cure for false teaching is always good teaching, healthy, solid teaching. And that's always a byproduct of understanding what the

Bible says and understanding and knowing how to teach the Bible to people who are misguided. And so it's really important to have a steady diet of God's word to be able to show people where they're in error.

And our standard for measuring people's behavior and their philosophies needs not to be the outward appearance, but it needs to be their inner heart, to make sure that their hearts are in the right place and wanting to glorify

God. It's always a concerning thing. It should always be a concerning thing when anybody, whether in the church or without the church, but especially inside the church, when somebody wants to present the government as the solution to people's problems.

There's never been a government on earth in history, never, that has come in and been sufficient to be the savior of humanity.

God sent Jesus Christ to be the savior. If it was possible for the government to do it, I'm sure he would have done it on at least one occasion.

There's never a government. So it does require courage. And by the way, courage is a byproduct of spending time with Jesus and his word.

It does come down to people knowing what the Bible teaches and rightly dividing the word so that they can teach it, practice it, and model it to other people.

It's always a dangerous thing when you try to fill quotas first and you don't vet the people in terms of their philosophy.

What word are they all about? What's the end objective here? If you judge people based on the outward appearance, there's a whole lot in terms of what really matters that you're overlooking.

So I think it's a great question that you ask. And the solution to it is to make sure you know what the Bible is. Make sure that you can patiently, calmly, courageously help those who oppose you.

As Paul says, those who oppose you, you must gently instruct with the hope that God will grant them repentance.

So all of those things are byproducts of spending real time with Jesus and his word, adapting and adjusting your life to his word, and then taking on the day -by -day grind because it is a long obedience in the same direction of helping people understand that the teachings that are presented in the

Bible are beautiful, they're not to be adulterated, and that no government can take the place of God.

Whenever that happens, it's a dangerous, scary thing, and you need to run for the hills. So great question. Amen. Thank you,

Joe, in Slovenia, and thank you also for giving us an address here in the United States where we can mail the book that you just won to your daughter in Georgia.

That's A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an Age of Intolerance and Fear by our guest

Michael Anthony. And we want to thank the folks at Nelson Books for providing these free copies that we're giving away.

And thanks for the great question, and keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Slovenia and beyond. Yeah, you know, as you probably know, you will have socialists like Michael Moore and others, even liberals that would deny the label socialist.

In fact, I have a feeling you would agree with me that most people, at least in the media, who identify themselves as liberal are not really liberal, they're leftists.

They're leftist totalitarians. Because liberal used to have the idea that we should all have an equal voice in the public square.

These people want this crush and silence those that disagree with them, just like the leftist totalitarians.

But these people will often use Acts chapter 2, verse 45, in reference to the disciples, that they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all as anyone might have need.

But the interesting thing is that in order for this to be a Christian work or a

Christian act of grace, mercy, hospitality, and benevolence, it has to be voluntary.

I have heard it said that one of the key things that drives socialism, and communism obviously, is coveting your neighbor's goods, and also thou shalt not steal.

Those are the two commandments that are being violated by the socialist,

Marxist, and communist mindset. Right. Well, let's talk about that a little bit, okay? I do this in the book.

I have no problem with talking about political issues when they're really theological issues that are disguised as political issues, all right?

When politicians become theologians, we within the church have a moral spiritual obligation and the calling of God to stand up and speak out, okay?

So let's get right to it. When socialists say, well, actually socialism is a more biblical model, based on what you just said, than capitalism.

Here's a couple things that I would say, and then I'm going to bring a scripture into this that socialists and communists conveniently leave out when they practice, what

I talk about in the book, being card -carrying members of the nighttime Bible -reading society.

When you read the Bible, if you were to read the Bible at night, lights off, sunglasses on, and one eye closed, you'd miss huge teachings of scripture, and you'd come up with reinventing

Jesus, reinventing God in your own image. And that's what's happening here with the the idea of socialism replacing capitalism as if it's a more biblical model.

Neither of them, in and of itself, is a more biblical model. Here's the idea. Well, if we share our possessions and distribute the wealth, redistribute the wealth, that's a more biblical model.

Here's the problem. You want to give money to people who are poor and outcasts and everything? That's a beautiful thing.

That's a biblical intention. The question now becomes, what's the most efficient way to do that?

To give it to a government agency where you're going to get pennies on the dollar, or to do it yourself directly to a charitable organization, whether it's through a church or a charitable organization that is much more efficient than the government?

That should be a no -brainer, number one. Number two, these guys who are talking about the top one percent, they're in the top one percent.

They've made the government, through more and more government control, the one percent entity that they're railing against.

So it's completely hypocritical. And number three, here's the scripture that everybody in the nighttime

Bible reading society keeps forgetting when it comes to saying that socialism is the better brand of a political form, the better form of government when it comes to being a biblical model.

Listen, capitalism at least gives you the opportunity to take your money into selflessly, willingly, not under compulsion, with a better bang for the buck, give your money to anybody you want to without knowing, without being confused about where it's going.

You can do that yourself, all right? Free will. But here's the verse of scripture that needs to be remembered.

2 Thessalonians chapter 3 verse 10, where Paul says,

For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule, the one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.

So that's a biblical rule from the Apostle Paul who says, listen, a person should work for their food.

This idea of giving free handouts is actually unbiblical and unchristian. Free handouts go to widows and orphans and those who cannot make a living for themselves.

That's one thing. And it happens not through the institution of the government, but through the institution of the church.

Huge difference. And interestingly enough, it's the same people who promote Marxism and socialism who are against theocracy.

But what they're actually doing is reinventing theocracy through the brand of socialism and Marxism. That's right.

Yeah. So I'm not afraid to speak about those issues. And many people are probably listening right now and saying, boy,

I wish I could say that. Well, now you can. Now you know how to say it. And in my book,

I go into much more detail about that to show people how to stand up and speak out in a sit down, shut up world.

Because if you don't do it and nobody else does it, before you know it, we're going to be looking at a full on socialist, if not

Marxist United States of America. We're going to be the United States only in name, not in practice. By the way,

I don't want to insult Thomas Nelson or Nelson books, but I actually like your first title better. I hope that you make use of it in some way in a future book.

We do have a free download that people can get at CourageMatters .com.

It's called How to Stand Up and Speak Out in a Sit Down, Shut Up World. So they go to CourageMatters .com.

You can get that free download right now. Okay. And let's see here.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, isn't it ironic that those in the church that would actually share many of our conservative biblical convictions on matters of doctrine and theology, and our view of the inerrancy of scripture are actually borrowing tactics from the left when it comes to race?

They are responding with a racism of their own to the sin of racism by making all whites guilty of the sin of racism and excluding those of darker skin colors from having the possibility of being guilty of that sin.

Isn't this just another form of racism? Yeah, I would say it is. Yeah, it's clearly, and it's just as insane as white racism.

Racism is racism. It's a sin. It's a sin. And it's a serious sin. Racism of any kind.

Right. A serious, serious sin. And by the way, when you look at the book of Revelation and you see people from every tongue, tribe, and nation, how do you think that John was able to recognize them?

Right. Probably because they didn't all look like white bread. They didn't all look dark skinned. They were people of a multiplicity of ethnicities that were visible.

And it seems to be an indication that ethnicity, interesting thing for another discussion, maybe,

Chris, ethnicity is not necessarily something that goes away once life on earth ends. That's right.

That's a very interesting point. And the idea that this has been brought up before, in fact, it's brought up constantly in the media, but the idea that a person cannot be guilty of the sin of racism.

And by the way, I know that you would agree with me that that word racism, there is only one race.

It's the human race. Right. And so we just use it because it's a part of the common language of our day, and it has been for centuries.

But what we mean by that is just the different way people look, their facial features and skin color and so on.

But the idea that you cannot be guilty of bigotry, if you are a member of a people group that has been persecuted and does not have power and authority, that's absolutely absurd.

Because in the New Testament, the place where racism as a sin is more clearly highlighted is the racism that was practiced and believed by the

Jewish Christians who were not even eating with their

Gentile brethren. And yet these Jewish Christians knew full well that they were a persecuted and enslaved and tormented and slaughtered minority going all the way back until they came from the loins of Abraham.

And still, they did not have the privilege, if you want to call it that, of being racist or harboring ill will towards their

Gentile brethren, even though the Gentiles were the oppressors. Right, exactly. And going back the

Old Testament, very clear teaching to the nation of Israel, which was God's favored nation, right?

The nation of Israel, the Jewish people. Do not mistreat your foreigners. Don't do it.

So racism, no matter what side it's coming from, it's always wrong. And, you know, to go to your earlier point, just because you might not be a person whose ancestry has been persecuted in the past, doesn't mean that you are automatically a racist and cannot empathize with people.

You might not be able to experience from firsthand knowledge what racism feels like, but that doesn't mean that you're racist just because you didn't experience it.

Right. That kind of talk doesn't get us anywhere. It doesn't bring us, it doesn't bring anybody together. It just keeps us polarized.

There's a whole lot of polarization right now in this country that is due to people's lack of humility.

And it's not healthy. Yeah, well you just brought up a major theme in your book that is quite an interesting phrase.

It is something that appears on the surface to be oxymoronic, but it is courageous humility.

Courageous humility, if you could. Right. If you could further unpack that. Yes, I refer to it in A Call for Courage as either humble courage or courageous humility.

In fact, every chapter, the end of every chapter, there's a summary, you know, bullet points, this chapter in a nutshell, and it shows you as a result of just reading that chapter what courageous humility looks like.

In light of what you just read, here's what it would look like in your life. Here's some action steps. And that's really a byproduct, you know, the courageous humility or humble courage, those seemingly juxtaposed words, humility and courage.

The reason why that's become so important in my own life and my own ministry and my writing and everything that I try to do, speak, teach, write, preach, practice, replicate, is because it was a result of my own character studies of people in the

Bible. I wanted to find out what's the secret sauce when God uses somebody consistently.

Anybody can be used as a one -off, right? One and done. You think about Balaam's donkey in the book of Numbers, right?

If a guy could speak through a donkey, there's room for any of us. But what I wanted to do is

I wanted to find out those people whom God is using when you read the Bible consistently, what are some of the character traits that they have?

Well, first of all, we all know that it's the grace of God. It's undeserved favor of God. It's not because of any of their gifting capabilities.

It's despite that. So I want to say that very clearly. But once God gets a hold of somebody and begins to use them consistently, and they begin to know the ways of God, you become like the people you spend time with.

And the more time you spend with God, you realize that he's the most courageously humble being that there ever was and never will be.

Jesus said, take my yoke upon you. Learn from me for I'm humble. This is the same Jesus who overturned the tables on the money changers.

Same Jesus who called the leaders, the teachers of the law, whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones.

It's the same Jesus who stooped down to the woman who was caught in adultery and had that conversation with the woman at Jacob's well.

So we see nobody being more gracious, more humble, and more courageous than Jesus. So I began to see, studying the life of Moses, studying the life of the apostle

Paul, studying the life of these biblical characters, that nobody can really be used by God consistently, powerfully, and significantly, until and unless you become a person who prioritizes humility.

That courage is really the byproduct of humility.

A person truly starts to become humble, and truly becomes increasingly humble.

They become increasingly used by God, and increasingly courageous. You cannot have, biblically, one without the other.

Wherever you see true humility, courage will eventually arise. Wherever you see godly courage, you will look behind the scenes, and you will see true humility.

They're inseparable in the Bible. Amen. Let's pick up where you left off there after we return,

I should say, from our midway break. This is an elongated break, as Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida requires a 12 -minute break between our two major segments.

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That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And right before the break, Michael Anthony, you were discussing courageous humility, and it is not only a wrong approach, a sinful approach for the church to mimic the left on matters in trying to solve problems on this earth, but it's also, we have to be very careful about not imitating our right -wing heroes when they are in the wrong in their manner of arrogance, pride, mockery, and so on.

We have to be very careful because it can be very easy for we who have biblical ethics and morals to just start acting like Pharisees and not forgetting that lost people behave that way because they are lost, and we should be surprised if lost people ever actually behave like Christians.

Am I right? Exactly right, my friend. The Bible does not call us to be neutral. It calls us to be objective, and as Paul says, therefore we are no longer to evaluate anybody from a worldly point of view.

We're supposed to evaluate ourselves and others from a biblical worldview, which, by the way, helps us understand that Jesus did judge.

He's coming back to judge everybody, and that we, as Jesus' followers, have to judge beginning with ourselves, not neutrally, but objectively, and there's a difference.

So it doesn't matter what somebody's political affiliation is, what their skin color is, how rich or how poor they are, whether they're male or female, whether they're young or old.

We are to view everything as Christ's followers with the handbook that Jesus used and taught from the

Old Testament, and now that we have the New Testament, the New Testament which interprets and helps us put the

Old Testament into context. So, super important to remember, God has not called

Christians to be neutral. He calls us to be objective. Well, how do we actually, in a practical, instructive way, how can we speak the truth and love when we are being threatened, attacked?

It's very easy for us as fallible, sinful humans, even if we are filled with the

Holy Spirit, to slip back into old habits, to respond with anger, to respond with the same kind of mockery that's being hurled at us.

We not only do it with each other as brothers in Christ, but we do it with the world. Sometimes we do it even more harshly and mean -spiritedly with our own brothers in Christ and our sisters in Christ.

But if you could, do you have any helpful instructions and counsel on what we might try to remember to call to our minds when we are in the midst of a conflict?

Yes, always remember that you will always become like the people you associate with.

Paul says, when he was writing to the Corinthians, bad company corrupts good character. So, there's a negative example of it.

Well, if bad company corrupts good character, what about good character reforming bad character? That's the whole idea of spending time with Jesus, right?

When they realized that these were unschooled, ordinary men, they realized, and they saw their boldness or their courage, the book of Acts says, that they realized that these men had been with Jesus.

You always become like the people you spend time with. So, 1 Peter chapter 2, verse 23, great verse of scripture for every

Christ follower to make sure, how do you know whether you're following Jesus by whether or not you are really like Jesus?

Not by how much time you spend in the Bible, not by whether you have a couple of alphabets after your name or before your name, not how long you've been serving in ministry.

As the scriptures also say, a dog returns to its vomit. So, you have to be careful that we don't become fleshly.

1 Peter chapter 2, verse 23 is a great verse to commit to memory. When they hurled their insults at him, at Jesus, he did not retaliate.

When he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

So, God knows the truth, and humility is simply agreeing with God about what he already knows. That's what humility is, that I'm going to follow

God, leave the consequences with him, so I can stand up and speak out with love and with the truth in the face of opposition and difficulty.

Jesus did it all the time. In fact, on the cross, justice and mercy kissed on the cross. God was simultaneously judging sin and embracing the world with his arms of love.

Jesus did it all the time. He spoke the truth with love, and we, his followers, can do that all the time. So, first of all, you need to understand that you always become like the people you spend time with.

So, your ability to speak with courageous humility is a reflection of whether or not you're getting real face time with Jesus.

I don't care, and God, more importantly, doesn't care how much time you're getting in the Bible, how much time you're spending praying, how much time you're spending journaling.

If at the end of all of that, you're not being more like Jesus in character, it's time to reform and to revitalize your quote -unquote

Bible time. Very important to understand. Secondly, people need to understand that your courage is a byproduct of your humility with God, and humility is simply agreeing with God about what he already knows.

And third, maybe you'd like to talk about it a little bit more, Chris, the recipe of courageous humility.

Yeah, definitely go through that. Truth plus love equals courage. In Ephesians chapter 4, we're told, speak the truth in love.

It's not one or the other. God doesn't call us to just speak the truth. He doesn't call us just to be loving.

He calls us to speak the truth in love. When we do that, that's courage. And it's very important to understand that the most loving thing you can do for somebody is tell them the truth when you know what it is.

The most hateful thing you can do to somebody is withhold the truth when you know what it is.

So when you're having a conversation with somebody about whatever the issue might be, and you know what the

Bible teaches, and you drink the Kool -Aid temporarily in a moment of temporary insanity, and you think, well,

I don't want to upset the apple cart by telling them what the truth is, because that might make them uncomfortable.

You're temporarily out of your mind because you're out of the Holy Spirit in that moment. The most loving thing you can do for somebody is tell them the truth.

The most hateful thing you can do is withhold the truth from somebody, and when truth and love travel together, that's when you have courageous humility.

It's super important to understand that. And you need to understand, all of us need to understand, you need to remember that Jesus said you'll know the truth and the truth will set you free.

The most loving thing you can do for somebody is help them get free. You keep people in bondage.

I keep people in bondage when I withhold the truth from them that they need to hear. Stop apologizing for the truth.

Tell them the truth. Just do it in love. And when you tell somebody the truth, you need to remember that that is the ultimate means of demonstrating genuine love for somebody.

The real haters are those, listen, this is really convicting, but it's also freeing.

The real haters are those who know the truth, but in the name of tolerance, which is not the same as love, withhold the truth that they know needs to be proclaimed.

That's the real hater. Amen. In fact, what you just said immediately recalls to my mind, this is a very controversial thing

I'm going to say, but there is a major figure within evangelicalism that I think is committing a great act of wickedness because he is teaching that the

Jews do not need to embrace Christ as their Messiah, God, and King because Jews as an ethnic people are really, they're safe in the eyes of God if they follow basically the old covenant law and so on.

Obviously, Jesus Christ never would have needed to die on the cross if anybody could successfully follow the old covenant law, but this is the kind of thing where it seems on the outside like a compassionate, loving, and tolerant thing to say, oh, well, you know, we're not going to bother offending our

Jewish friends and neighbors by bringing them the gospel. They're okay, but that's an act of great wickedness, isn't it?

It's the ultimate act of wickedness. Next subject. I'm just kidding. We could milk that for all it's worth, but for Pete's sake, it is the ultimate act of wickedness.

And I would say this, Galatians 221. You notice I'm quoting scripture again and again because my opinion doesn't matter unless my opinion reflects the word of God.

Galatians 221 says, I do not set aside the grace of God for if righteousness could be gained through the law,

Christ died for nothing. So Jesus died for Jew and Gentile. Acts chapter 15 makes it clear that Jews are saved the same way as Gentiles are.

Gentiles are saved the same way that Jews are. It is through faith as a means of undeserved favor.

It's as a result of faith in the person and the finished work of Jesus of Nazareth.

That is it. The law doesn't save anybody, for through no acts of the law will anyone be declared righteous, the scriptures say.

It's as clear as that. So Jews and Gentiles are saved the same way by faith in Jesus Christ.

Amen. We have John in Bangor, Maine, who says, do you have any advice on how to prioritize the teachings and policies and positions of a political candidate that would lead us to vote for them?

Because as you may well know, we are very rarely voting for a

Christian when we are voting for anyone, and they are not all consistent in the way that they reflect what the

Bible might teach on this issue or that. One of the reasons that I bring this up is that I am amazed at how many

Bible -believing churches contain members, and I'm not speaking about dead liberal mainline churches,

I'm talking about evangelical churches, that think it is quite all right to not only vote for a pro -abortionist who is very eagerly trying to maintain the slaughter and infanticide of unborn children, but to even campaign actively publicly for such a person.

It boggles my mind how can I communicate to these people that even if a pro -life candidate is not correct on many issues, there are still priorities that we need to address here.

I think that's common sense biblical thinking. I think that's well said. I appreciate you asking that question, and for those who are still waiting,

I'm eager and super excited to get to your questions as well, so we'll make the wait worth your while, won't we

Chris? You need to evaluate everybody on two things, okay? Biblical principles first and foremost.

Secondly, and importantly, because we are Americans, the laws of the land and the supreme law of the land is the

Constitution. And the Constitution, I'm sorry everybody, but it gives us the best opportunity to have the freedom of religion, the free expression of our religion, compared to other documents that are out there in all of the world that protects our

God -given unalienable rights. So if you don't care about the Constitution, then try living without it, because that's the direction we're headed if people of faith pull out of the political process.

The First Amendment, again, is first on purpose. The Establishment Clause, Congress shall make no law affecting the establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof.

You're not supposed to have any kind of hindrance of religious expression whatsoever. So you should be evaluating, all of us should be evaluating candidates first and foremost, are their positions biblical?

Do they value the sanctity of life? Do they value the dignity of human life? Do they value, and along with that, the free exercise of religion, the

Constitution? It does matter. The Constitution does matter. And let me tell you something. If the election, if the presidential election, and I'm totally okay with people disagreeing with me on this, it makes for a great conversation and I will love you if you disagree with me.

You have a right to passionately express yourself as I do right now as well, at least we do right now in this country.

If the presidential election had gone the other way, evangelicals would be moaning and groaning right now and we would be fighting a tumultuous battle right now over the

First Amendment, the free exercise of religion. And this is one of the things that I talk about in the chapter in the book,

A Call for Courage, mind control and thought police. Can I talk about that just for a moment?

Oh, you can talk about it as long as we have time for you to talk about it. Here is what's important, everybody. The government cannot now control what we think or what we believe.

They can't control our minds, right? It's not possible. But if they can limit our free speech and the free exercise of our religion, they can effectively prohibit us from teaching other people how to think about Jesus Christ and the teachings of scripture and therefore control the minds and the behaviors of future generations.

And it all comes back to one simple and powerful thing, the First Amendment, the freedom and the free expression of speech and religion.

So you better care about the First Amendment because it is the first domino in the collapse of our free expression of religious freedom.

Super, super, uber important. If you live in the United States of America, you better wake up and pay attention to the

First Amendment. So that's an important ingredient in the Constitution in how you evaluate candidates.

Amen. We have Lou from Sharpsburg, Georgia. Hi, Lou.

Who says, can your guest give an example of how we would speak up for the gospel in a situation that others clearly don't want to hear about it but are presenting their worldview like it is the truth?

And you could even have a situation, I have had this situation, where I am in the presence of conservative secular humanists who, they might be pro -life, they might be against same -sex marriage, they may be right on lockstep with many of the things that I might believe politically and morally and socially, but they don't want to hear the gospel.

So it's not just liberals and agnostics and atheists that may react negatively. But if you could respond to Lou and Sharpsburg, Georgia's question.

Great question. In chapter two of my book, Courage Matters, I'm not going to reveal too much,

Lou, because I don't want to give away, but there's a prime example there of a spontaneous debate

I had in a foreign country with a Muslim who was doing the exact thing that you're talking about. He was presenting Islam as the ultimate religious expression and literally mocking

Christians. And I ended up debating him publicly for about 45 minutes or so. And it was a

Holy Spirit thing. And it was also, you know, success when it comes to witnessing for Christ is when opportunity meets preparation.

If you live for God in secret, you'll make great strides for him in public. If you live for God in secret, you'll make great strides for him in public.

If you're prepared in the daily grind, the ins and outs of life, your private time with God, your personal time of reading the

Bible, surrendering to God, putting it into action. And when you get into the public square and opportunities present themselves, you will be prepared because, again, success in being a witness for Christ, standing up and speaking out, is a byproduct, right?

It's when preparation meets opportunity. So chapter two of my book, A Call for Courage, I give a prime example.

And then the whole rest of the book gives multiple examples where I lived next to a same -sex couple.

And they wanted me to pray for them and bless their desires to adopt a couple of children.

And I talk about how to speak the truth in love, how Janet and I approached that situation. I've had interactions with transgender people, and they knew very clearly that I was not willing to compromise on biblical truth.

And they also knew very clearly that I loved them and I cared about them. I talk about that again as an example.

And again, not to tout the book, but I am going to tout the book. I wrote it as a manual, not an information book, but here's what's going on in the country.

I wrote it. I wrote A Call for Courage specifically to train people and to show people here is how you can live with power, truth, and love in an age of intolerance and fear, in a world where people are telling you, hey, person of faith,

Christian, evangelical, conservative Christian, person who believes the Bible, sit down, shut up, we don't want to hear from you anymore.

That's what I wrote the book for. It's not just my book anymore. It's a reason why it's selling like hot cakes, because people,

Chris, the cover of the book has one match igniting another match in a chain of matches. That was something that Thomas Nelson came up with.

Yeah, excellent domino effect kind of a thing there. Yes, it's a book that people, somebody sent me a picture the other day of a case of books that they bought.

You want to talk about being humbled. They bought a case of the book, they sent me a picture, and they're literally sending them out to their friends saying, this is the book that you need to read because it will show you.

It's a discipleship manual. It shows you how to stand up and speak out in the midst of specifically what's happening in the nation today.

So it is filled with page after page of examples, not only of here's a difficult situation, but here's how you stand up and you speak out in a sit down, shut up world.

That's what it's about. It's a practical book. Great. And Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, please give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth and Love in an

Age of Intolerance and Fear. Thanks to our friends at Thomas Nelson and CVBBS .com.

We'll ship that out to you free of charge and no charge to us as well if you give us your full mailing address.

Keep spreading the word in Sharpsburg, Georgia and beyond. Thanks for listening. We're going to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, I would send us an email as quickly as possible or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

If you want to get in line with those already waiting to have their questions asked, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Thank you so much, Mike Gaydosch of Solid Ground Christian Books. And now we are back to our final 24 minutes or so with our guest today,

Michael Anthony. We are discussing his book, A Call for Courage, Living with Power, Truth, and Love in an

Age of Intolerance and Fear. And if you'd like to join us now is the time to do it because we're rapidly running out of time.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And let's see here, we have

Terrence in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says,

John Adams said our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Why does your guest think that our

Constitution can possibly be adequate in a day and age when the United States seems to be collapsing to satanic ideology and practice?

Well, that's actually not what I believe. Could you please read the quote again and then we will put that into its context?

Because that quote is beautifully... You're talking about John Adams' quote? Yes. Okay. John Adams said our

Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government...

Stop right there. Okay. That helps us understand that the Constitution can only function in a certain environment where people are committed to high moral values.

That's what the first part of that statement by John Adams means. Now he's going to elaborate on that and explain that further.

Continue with the second part there, Chris. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

There you go. So if a government throws off restraints, if a government rejects the idea and the people reject the idea of moral absolutes and they do not want a moral, civil, just society, the

Constitution doesn't have a role any further because it can't function in that kind of environment, which is the exact reason why the

Constitution is under attack and being deemed by many as being irrelevant today, because as our morals go, so goes our ability to have a governing document that was designed for a moral society.

Super important. I think that's vital to understand that. Now let's dissect what the questioner had there, the question that was brought up again, and let's delve into that a little bit further.

Can you read his question again so I do it justice or at least try? Yeah, well, basically he was saying, how could we uphold this as being so important in a day and age when the

United States has become a secular humanist country and we are murdering unborn children and all that kind of thing?

Well, that's the fatalist attitude that the Bible never justifies. Fatalism and futility are not the same as faith.

And there's a chapter I have in the book where I talk about rejecting the majority myth, that we don't need 50 percent or 51 percent of the population in order to make a difference in the

United States of America. And I wish that evangelical conservative Christians, of which I am one, would get this ridiculous notion out of their mind that because we are in the minority, we cannot have a majority of influence.

Researchers at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute did a study. They wanted to find out what's the tipping point, what's the percentage of a group of people or a population that's necessary in order for the entire population to be influenced.

It's not 51 percent. It's not 40 percent. It's not 30 percent or 20 percent.

All that is needed, and I go over this in great detail in A Call for Courage, all that's necessary is to pass the 10 percent point.

As soon as you hit 11 percent, as soon as you go beyond 10 percent, where a group of people, 11 percent of the population passionately adheres to a belief, the belief begins to spread like wildfire.

The problem is that many of us have been dumbed down into thinking, well, we're not in the majority and therefore we can't have influence.

Well, we're becoming a secularist postmodern society where moral absolutes aren't embraced wholesale.

What if that was the view of the apostles, who began as only 12 before the day of Pentecost, 500 before the day of Pentecost, okay?

What if they had the view, well, we're in the underwhelming minority. Christianity would have never become a movement.

Listen, we're not first and foremost a ministry as Christians. We are first and foremost a movement by the

Spirit of God, where we don't look at the numbers of people. We don't look at the odds.

Listen, can I go off here for a second? David faced Goliath, and we love that story.

Somebody who was overwhelmed by somebody who was bigger and stronger than them didn't influence him.

He was going to be faithful to God. Daniel was thrown into the lion's den, didn't care whether God was going to rescue him or not.

He was going to be faithful. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Listen, we're going to do what's right, O King, even if our

God doesn't rescue us. This is the story of the whole Bible again and again and again and again.

Why is it that we think that because we're outnumbered we can't have influence? There are far more than 10 % of the people in the

United States of America who believe in the Bible, who believe in Jesus Christ, who believe in the moral absolute. The problem is we've allowed ourselves to be dumbed down and influenced by an even greater underwhelming minority of people who are simply more vocal and, unfortunately, more courageous than us.

What happens is we shrink back, we sit down, we shut up, and then we wring our hands and we say, boy, the end times must be soon.

Jesus must be coming back soon. We sit back and we're no longer acting as salt and light.

The world's getting increasingly dark and distasteful, and it becomes a disgraceful, self -fulfilling prophecy, all because we're not willing to be faithful to Jesus.

Amen. And so that's the ridiculous thing, and I say respectfully, that is an undercurrent in many people's lives today and people of faith.

Would you stop waiting to become the overwhelming majority in this country? Researchers at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute who weren't even doing it as believers showed us that all that's necessary is to breach the 10 % point, and the moment you do that, when people are passionate about an idea, the whole of society will embrace the viewpoint of that minority.

Come on, everybody, we've got more than 10 % in this country. Let's stop walking around with fatalism and let's arise in faith and be the

Church and be the followers of Jesus Christ that we're supposed to be. It's not about numbers, it's about faithfulness to God and being passionate for Him.

Well, you've given an example of why, even though I think that there are churches, denominations, and individuals who put too high of an emphasis on eschatology, there is a negative result, and it can be a very serious negative result, when your eschatology has an imbalance, and you were just talking about basically those who would say, if they wouldn't say it exactly this way, it's really a paraphrase of what their eschatology is.

Why bother polishing the brass on a sinking ship? Right, because we don't know if Jesus is coming back tomorrow, or He's not going to come back in our lifetime.

The Apostle Paul seemed to indicate 2 ,000 years ago that he thought Jesus' return was imminent. That was 2 ,000 years ago.

Listen, we don't serve Jesus because we think His return is tomorrow. We serve Jesus because we know that Jesus is worthy.

End of discussion. God has the rapture and the return of Jesus under control, and I'm sure that with this many listeners, that people have a variety of views about the timing, circumstance, or the belief in the rapture.

We cannot refute the idea of the literal, physical, bodily return of Jesus Christ. It's clarified in Scripture, and it's irrefutable.

Listen, Jesus has the terms and the details. The Father has the terms and the details. The Holy Spirit has the terms and the details of the return of Jesus completely underway.

He's got that taken care of. What we need to focus on is being salt and light. We need to stop waiting for a divine bailout in the return of Jesus Christ, and look how selfish that is when we stop and think about it.

We're supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. Don't you care about your neighbor? Don't you care about more than your own divine bailout when

Jesus Christ returns? You should care about your neighbor. Get out there and evangelize. Get out there and be salt and light in an increasingly dark and distasteful world because we might be at the six o 'clock hour.

We might be at a stroke before midnight. We don't know, and it does not matter. If you're living for Jesus because of your ability to discern the times, which is probably not that accurate based on how everybody throughout the ages thought that they understood the times, you're not understanding the highest motivation to live for Jesus that should settle the issue and level the playing field.

It is about the value of Jesus Christ and being faithful to him regardless of whether we're at the stroke before midnight or at six o 'clock or any place in between.

Leave the return of Jesus and the circumstances and the timing up to Jesus. In the meantime, be faithful and be salt and light in this increasingly dark and distasteful world.

Amen. Amen. And we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, don't you think that there is a danger when one's

American exceptionalism drives them to elevate patriotism and America above and beyond their

Christian faith and obedience to God and the recognition that our mission field is global?

Beautiful question, and I would agree with you. Listen, American exceptionalism needs to be understood in the context of a diversity of nations.

It's not a theological thing, though, and we have to be careful that we don't confuse it as a theocratic, you know,

God's rule and reign through a nation, as a theocratic issue, because it's not. Misunderstanding those two is dangerous.

We're called to preach the gospel to all nations, all peoples, all ethnicities, until Jesus Christ returns.

But here's what I would say. American exceptionalism aside, because I'm not promoting that,

I'm promoting a biblical worldview, and I understand what Arnie is stating here.

I want to draw a line of distinction here, and I want to say the only reason why living in America is important in regard to the

Constitution is because it protects our freedom to preach and teach the gospel. Listen, the gospel is not just salvation and faith in Jesus Christ.

The gospel is the full teaching of the counsel of God from Genesis to Revelation. Paul makes that clear in the book of Romans, for example.

That is the definition of the gospel. Our charge is to present everybody complete in Christ.

Well, you can't do that if certain teachings of the Bible are forbidden in the name of tolerance and quote -unquote love, which is not the truth.

You can't present everybody complete in Christ, and you can't fulfill the Great Commission, which is going to all the world, preach the gospel, teaching them, baptizing people in the name of the

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey some of the things I've commanded you. That's not what it says.

Teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. Well, where does that come from? It comes from the New Testament and the

Old Testament, the teachings of Jesus. By the way, Jesus taught from the Old Testament. So the First Amendment, which is

American distinctively, is super important because that protects our ability to do what?

To preach and teach the full counsel of God without obstruction. So it's not about American exceptionalism.

It's about thanking God for the First Amendment, which is uniquely American, which protects us in a way that is unique from many other, if not most or all other nations, to do what we are commanded to do by Jesus, which is to present everybody complete in Christ, teach them to obey everything

I've commanded you, which has to deal directly with the idea of not having the freedom of speech encumbered or hindered.

So that's why the First Amendment is important for Christians living in the United States of America, because if the

First Amendment goes and it becomes legally the law of the land where you can prohibit the freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion, then that puts us on a direct collision course with the government.

And then we're back to the Book of Acts, we must obey God rather than man, that kind of a moment. And that's not a good moment.

And for those who say, well, maybe a little bit of persecution would do us good in this nation, listen, that's an ignorant statement, because if you talk to people in closed countries, communist countries, they would love to have the freedom that we have to preach and teach the gospel and to gather openly that they don't have any longer.

Amen. Well, I'm sorry, Arnie, I believe we gave away all the copies that we were allotted of A Call for Courage, but we'll try to find something else to send to you.

Thanks a lot for... What? You know what, Chris, how about this? Arnie, if you email us, if you go to CourageMatters .com

and you send us an email, I'll autograph a personal copy and get it out in the mail to you tomorrow.

So just go to CourageMatters .com, sign up on the contact list, and maybe,

Chris, can you get something unique about Arnie so we know it's not a fake Arnie that he just sent out 20 copies to quote -unquote

Arnie? Can you email Chris with something that we know comes specifically from you,

Arnie? And then, Chris, you can forward that to me, and we'll make sure that the real Chris gets the real deal, and I'll give him an autographed copy.

Does that sound fair, Chris? That sounds great. That's very generous of you. Thank you. Sure. In fact, that's better than the other books, because none of the other ones are autographed.

Let's see here. We have

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, don't we have to be careful, we who are conservative

Bible -believing evangelicals, not to just adopt our own social gospel?

The liberals have their own version of that. They were the champions and inventors of the social gospel, where doing good things like feeding the poor and defending the persecuted became the gospel itself.

We who are conservative seem to have very often developed our own version of a social gospel, where the pro -life movement and the opposition to same -sex marriage and other things actually eclipse the actual gospel itself.

Don't we need to be careful about that while not neglecting standing up for biblical truth and righteousness?

Yes. Political systems can be corrupt even if their tenets are correct and accurate, and that's why there's no political system, no government that has been deemed savior by God Almighty.

So you bring up a beautiful point. I'm glad that you brought it up, because it brings me back to this issue of being objective, not neutral.

We don't go into the voting booth and just vote a straight party line, as if everybody's morally pure and, you know, the better option across the board.

You have to use your brain these days, which is a lost art. And I think that Jesus is neither

Democrat or Republican or Libertarian. Jesus is Jesus. And his followers need to exercise discretion and independent thinking and biblical thinking when voting about any piece of legislation, any policy, and any politician.

So kudos to you for being a mature listener and a mature thinker and bringing up what many in the conservative evangelical camp need to take a step back and think seriously about blind neutrality, where objectivity is really what

God wants us to strive for in our lives. Objectivity, judging and measuring everything through the lens of Scripture, not political parties or agendas.

Amen. We have an anonymous listener who says, I feel uncomfortable with the way my congregation is overly politically active and supports specific candidates.

I think that we are setting ourselves up for embarrassment when we do so with the same vociferousness and excitement as we do proclaim the gospel, because these sinful and fallible human beings that we are supporting politically may wind up to be frauds and so on.

We have to have a balance, I think, in the way that we approach the situation when the gospel needs to always be clearly the first and foremost thing.

Right. Kudos. I agree with you. I think that we need to be really careful that you don't get so aligned with a political party or a candidate that it becomes gospel.

And then at the same time, in the need to be balanced here, we need to be careful that we're not fearful of delving into politics and practicing separation of church and state on the other extreme.

So if we would just reasonably preach and teach the gospel, the Scriptures, in light of world events, we would cover all events and it wouldn't be a big deal when an election comes around because you're teaching the full counsel of God.

And by the way, almost every one of the New Testament books, when you look at it, was written to a particular audience with specific geopolitical, racial, social, theological issues.

It's not just theology. Theology, if you haven't noticed everybody, often raises its head in the midst of politics and social issues and economic issues and sexual issues, global issues.

Politics often, or theology, often raises its head in those certain contexts. So why would we preach and teach the

Bible differently than the way it was written in the epistles, where certain specific issues are being addressed?

The way Paul addresses the Corinthians is different than the way he addresses the Galatians, which is different than the way he addresses the issues in Ephesians.

It's different than the way he addresses the issues to Colossians. The way 1st Peter addresses issues is different than the way

James addresses issues. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John is different. So we always see the gospel being brought to bear, the teachings of God's Word being brought to bear on the specific issues that are being addressed to the people who are the recipients of the letters.

So why is it that today in many churches we preach and teach the gospel as if it's in a vacuum, and people can't connect the dots with what's happening racially, politically, financially, morally?

They can't connect the dots because it's a fog, you know, a mist in the pulpit.

The mist in the pulpit becomes a fog in the pew. People can't connect the

Bible to current events because many pastors and teachers are not bringing the

Bible to bear on the issues of the day. They're preaching the gospel in a vacuum, and that's why people think that they think that, well, you can't get political.

You have to be political when politicians are being theologians these days. You have to. You have a moral spiritual obligation before God.

You just need to do it with tact and grace and objectivity. Regardless of parties, regardless of platforms only, you have to judge candidates and platforms and policies based on individual points and circumstances and preach and teach the whole counsel of God.

That's needed more today than perhaps it was at any other time in history. So excellent, excellent, genuine concern that you're voicing by your anonymous participant.

So glad that you made that observation, and we need to be careful that we don't become so tied to a candidate or a party that we lose our objectivity and we are no longer faithful to Jesus Christ.

Super important. Amen. And basically, I think that what you're saying also involves, or directly involves, people who think that they can compartmentalize their faith, that their faith is not supposed to be a part of every single thing that they do.

Our faith is supposed to guide us in everything. I mean, I can remember clearly an interview that a professing

Christian student, college student, when she was interviewing

Bill Clinton, when Bill Clinton was for president, she asked him about his view of the

Bible and is the Bible important to you, etc. And Bill Clinton said, oh,

I love the Bible. The Bible is the most important book to me. And of course, I'm paraphrasing because this is a long time ago.

But he said, that doesn't mean that the teachings of the Bible are to necessarily guide my decisions as president.

And I thought that was the most ridiculous statement that anybody could make. What else is guiding your decisions, then?

If you believe that the Bible is the most important book to you, then how on earth could you make decisions being guided by something else?

Right. Well, Bill Clinton was probably our first, at least openly, postmodern president. When it came back to, well, it depends on what your definition of the word is, is.

And that's an example that you gave, too. You know, the idea of no more moral absolutes. It just, if it means this to you, if that's your truth, then that's fine.

So it's quintessential of where we are now as a nation, that people can, it's syncretism, just adding a little bit of Jesus to the rest of your life while nothing changes.

That's not the idea of what Jesus presents. Unless a man, woman, denies himself, takes up his cross daily, you cannot be my disciple.

That doesn't sound like the brand of Christianity that Bill Clinton was presenting in the words that you just shared.

Right. Well, many other things that he said and did reveal that he was not a brother in Christ at all.

Well, we have just a couple of minutes for you. If you could, in about a minute and a half, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, before we go off the air.

I would tell people that now is not the time to shrink back in the United States of America. It's not time to give up on the

United States of America. It's not time to wait any longer for a divine bailout.

It's not time to wait for the 51 % card where that's the only time that we can influence the nation.

If you remember, there was a small number of people in the nation whose views were out of sync with the majority of people who changed the fundamental direction of the nation on a few major issues over the past few years in our nation.

Now is the time to reject the majority of myth and to recognize that you don't follow

Jesus just because you're in the majority. You follow Jesus because he's worthy. Now is the time, secondly, to simplify your life.

You've got to make sure that you're not getting distracted. You need to focus on what's happening in the nation, pay attention to what's happening in the nation, simplify your life so that you can engage with what's happening right before our very eyes.

Third, you need to make sure that you're actually leading. You might need to run for political office.

You might need to support those who are running for political office, who embrace Judeo -Christian values, and who are walking with lives of integrity.

You need to lead and teach and preach from the pulpit as an elder or a deacon or a pastor or Christian leader.

It's time to LEAD and don't confuse being in a leadership position with actually exercising leadership.

And fourth, I've already said it but I'll say it again, stop waiting for a divine bailout in the rapture or the return of Jesus.

You don't know whether Jesus' return is tonight at midnight or by the time we're even perhaps not even done with this interview.

That's not what it's about. We live for Jesus because he's worthy and because to love God is to love your neighbor as yourself.

You need to care about your neighbor by sharing the gospel, being salt and light, and stop apologizing for the truth.

Truth is what sets people free. People need to hear the truths about Jesus and they need to hear them communicated with genuine love and compassion for the eternal souls of your listeners.

If people did those final things, Chris, we'd have the revival that needs to happen in our nation underway.

I'm tired of talking about revival at a 50 ,000 foot level in this esoteric way. Revival is the most practical thing that we could ever experience this side of eternity.

It's when we get really serious about following Jesus, taking up Jesus' cross every day and following him, putting to death therefore whatever belongs to the sinful nature, and the revival that we all know we need to have will be underway, one surrendered life at a time.

Amen. And I know that your websites are godfactor .com, godfactor .com,

couragematters .com, and the website for Grace Fellowship in York, Pennsylvania is graceyork .com,

graceyork .com. Thank you so much, Michael Anthony. I look forward to interviewing you many times in the future.

If you could hold on, I just want to say a proper goodbye to you off the air. Chris, what a pleasure, everybody. It's been a pleasure to be with you.

God bless you, everybody. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater