Arguing With A Pro-Choice Muslim

I've seen how abortion has saved a lot of women. I don't think I killed a lot of children though, right? But you know,

I see what I have to do. What does it have to do when you say do something exist? It's existing inside the world.

I don't know. Okay. I Do have a right to opinion. I don't want to go back. Okay. Are you just questioning

Virginia? Let me give you some pushback on that. Okay Okay, wait what what about her makes you think she's not a woman growing, right?

Okay I'm sorry.

I'm laughing because of how your response to seeing this But seriously though you said it helped a lot of women but it's also killed a lot of children over 60 million in America They're all dead

I respect you I Don't respect the opinion of like say plantation owners who engage in the slave trade

I respected them as humans, but I have no respect for their system that actually enslave our black brothers and sisters

You know, I don't respect the position that says we can take the life of the most innocent and defenseless among us because we want

I think it comes down to Complete I agree with you and I Austin did as well.

You said it's a it's a moral issue You're right. I agree with you there. So it's an it's a difference of opinion, but it's about a moral question

Well, I think it's I think it's moral differences. I think if you think it's murder

I could argue with you all day and we could go at it It depends what we

I To show you that I'm not trying to manipulate the unjustified taking

Right, so we have a human life. It's there's no question Biologically and biblically it's a human life from fertilization.

That's indisputable You and I can't overcome the evidence So biologically it's human

From fertilization Fetus is a

Latin word that means baby. So you said infant and baby you just spoke Latin Oh, can

I share something with you very personal when you say take an infant and put it next to something like in the womb

You would just choose to save this over that I just spent two Two and a half months basically in between two hospitals in a different state

With my twin girls that were born. I've adopted them twin girls that were born premature at 29 weeks

So I sat there next to their incubator with tubes in them and everything else for two months

While doctors worked around the clock to save and preserve their lives. I don't think we should be able to Did you sign the ballot measure

Do you know what it said the ballot measure basically says that you could kill my daughters in Arizona I Forgive me,

I think maybe I miscommunicated my daughters are in the category of children you can kill

Ballot measure We'll give the constitutional right to kill your child If Arizona doesn't want to legalize abortion

I want you to know there's two things happening right now

One is that we have a bill going in right now to protect all humans from fertilization to abolish abortion

You sign you sign the measure that actually says if the child requires

Medical intervention and Extraordinary medical means to preserve you can kill that child

Which means basically up to birth because if you're born like for example, my friend's baby was just born

Basically a term that had to spend a couple weeks with medical intervention to survive You could kill him too.

According to that ballot measure in terms of he needed medical intervention I Wanting a child is what makes it

So because there's injustices I'm not saying that I'm saying that you're wasting a lot of your resources saying that we should end abortion, right?

Okay When do you think when is it? Do you think if that baby's a week old it's abortion,

I think you're drawing But I think you're drawing a bad Something that's like before and I get it.

I'm not saying that people should abort Babies Read the language it defines it as if the baby will require this extraordinary medical attention

Then you can't kill it. They define viability as it will require extraordinary medical intervention

Which means NICU babies are up for grabs If you're gonna be born at 32 weeks that will require an incubator and medical intervention.

You can kill that baby I'm having this conversation with you. I think you're misunderstanding. I did read it.

I'm trying to understand you. But I think it's very clear that you're not, you don't, I'm not gonna change your opinion.

Can I show you a picture of us? I have a younger sibling too. His name is August. His mom tried to kill him twice.

We adopted him. Okay, I understand what you're saying. Should she have killed him? I'm not saying that they don't have,

I'm not trying to say that she should have killed that child. Should she have had the right to kill

August? Should she have had the right to have an abortion? To kill August. Sir, I'm...

August was in her womb. She tried to kill him twice. It was a Christian who stopped her. No, she was trying to abort him twice is what you're trying to say.

Abortion is the unjustified taking of human life. That is your religious opinion. It is the ending of human life.

And there's no question. You're religious and I'm religious. There's no question. Religion would have a view of an ultimate.

It would have an ethical system. It would have sacrifice and offerings like you're doing here today.

My religion says that we shouldn't judge people. I have no intention of judging people. So, should men be able to rape women?

You know, why would... You said your religion teaches you not to judge people. Should men be able to rape women?

I'm saying I shouldn't judge people. And this morally... Can I ask you to answer that?

Should men be able to rape women? Of course not. So you do judge, don't you?

Okay, let me reword this. I don't judge people. LGBTQ, I would never judge anybody.

When I'm saying I'm not going to judge women for aborting kids, I'm not saying, oh, I would be co -murder.

I'm saying I would simply not judge because I wouldn't consider this murder. You believe it's permission.

Your judgment is that it's not murder, so they should be permitted. That's your judgment. Well, it's my opinion. It's your judgment.

You have a difference of opinion. I could go back and forth with you for hours about this, and I don't think we'd get anywhere.

Well, let me ask you this way. How do you know anything that you know? How do you know anything?

The Word of God. God has spoken in history. We have certainty because God that created you and me has walked among us, and he's told us about himself.

I'm not a Christian. No, it's okay that you're not a Christian. It doesn't change the fact that Jesus is God, and he walked among us.

In my religion, Jesus is a prophet. Okay, and in Scripture, where we know about Jesus, the only place that we know about Jesus, he called himself

God, and he said that if you don't believe that he's God, you'll die in your sins. He said he was the only way for salvation.

That's how we know about Jesus from the Gospels. And what he said about himself is that if you don't turn to him in faith, or I don't, we will die in our sins.

And that's okay if that's your… That's what the text says. But you have to understand that you can't have, you can't make a biblical argument to somebody who doesn't.

I think you have a right to believe in what you believe. I'm never going to tell you that your God is or isn't real. But I simply, at the end of the day, it's a belief.

I don't hold the same belief as you. I don't… So I think I'm hearing you. You're saying if I don't accept the authority, it doesn't apply to me.

That's what you're saying. Well, okay, I'm a Muslim. If I start… I could speak on…

I could say duas. Are you going to agree with me? Because I'm like, oh, well, Allah… I would love to have that conversation.

But it's a different… Well, can I ask? I mean this very humbly to you. The way that I would respond to you as a

Muslim would be with respect and love and point out to you that Muhammad came with the Quran hundreds of years after the time of Christ and the apostles, and he altered the message of the

Gospels and the Christian message. This is important because Muhammad acknowledges,

Allah says, that the books that came before were the words of God. But then

Muhammad comes later with a different message that contradicts those books. So it's the word of God, but we don't believe what it says.

So Islam collapses on its own premises. I think that when

I read the Quran and when I look at the teachings, I could talk to you why the

Quran is correct and how it makes the… For example, the Quran talks about the big bang and it predicts what's happening right now with Israel.

But if I go back and forth with this, at the end of the day, when it's a religious… You're not going to change my religion. I respect you enough to listen to you.

I respect your religious opinions, but I would never try to change them. I think it's ignorant to try to change them. And Islam… Help me understand this, because I've talked to a lot of different Muslims who believe some different things.

There are some differences between Muslims. I'm not criticizing it.

I'm saying I want to know what you believe. Don't you believe in Islam that Allah creates all human beings in the world?

Don't you believe that Allah is the creator of life? He does create everything.

Right. And don't you believe… Don't Muslims believe that we're created in the image of God? Yes. So what's in the womb is created by Allah in the image of God, and you're advocating to be able to kill it.

Well, you know, I… My aunt's a Muslim. She's a doctor. She believes in the Quran. I also understand that these are not…

You can choose how you want to interpret the Bible. There are many people who interpret the Bible differently. If you want to beat it and take it out on Facebook, I think

I don't interpret the Quran like that. And there are many Muslims who are of good choice.

I'm not… Just because they… I believe in protecting the autonomy of women.

Like, there are so many women who die… You believe in bodily autonomy? I do. For who? It doesn't matter.

I'm not going to go back and forth with you. I feel like we're not getting anywhere. Not for the human in the womb, though, right? I don't think we're getting anywhere.

That's the thing. Well, can you see this? And I don't mean this to get over on you. I think the reason you can't answer is because it's a refutation.

No, it's because… No, I think it's because at the end of the day, and I've said this before, it's coming… It's boiling down to a difference of what we consider…

Like, I'm not saying… Like, I personally… And I've seen…

I don't know if it's you guys specifically, but I've seen… I go to ASU campus. I've seen the posters. I've seen the…

This is what you're killing. Da -da -da. Graphic pictures and everything. I see that, right.

Yeah. And you're allowed to have that opinion. But I'm not going to go… Because at the end of the day, it just boils down to a difference of opinion.

So there's no truth. Everyone has their own truth. Well, everybody has their own philosophies.

So we can't know anything is true. Well, you know, a great philosopher once said,

I think therefore I am. How do you know anything's real? How do you know I'm real? How do you know he's real? That's a good question. That's why I was asking you, how do you know anything at all?

Because you're arguing from a position where you have no foundation. You're saying everyone's truth is their own truth.

So what if the rapist comes along and says, my truth is that it is a good, moral, happy thing to rape women.

I like it. But the U .S. government… That's his truth. But you know, the U .S. government goes for their own truth, and he would be prosecuted.

But the U .S. government also used to say it was right to kidnap and enslave black people. Yeah. Were they right?

You know what? So were they moral then? But it was their truth at the time. Was it good?

Was it good to enslave black people? Of course it's my opinion that it's not good, but you know, there are a lot of people who still think it's okay. But they thought it was.

But it's my belief. There are a bunch of people who still believe that. Do you know what ended it? Do you know what ended it?

The Christian gospel and the Christian scriptures. It was Christian abolitionists with the Christian worldview that ended it.

We ended it with the scriptures. It was that black brother and sister is in the image of God.

He was made by God. He is equal to me. And they actually argued this, that in the Old Testament scriptures, to kidnap and enslave somebody was a death penalty.

Okay, the KKK is also a Christian organization. To what now? The KKK is a Christian organization.

How would we define the KKK as a Christian organization? They disagree with what the

Bible says. You know, it's so easy to try to give you credit for something just because if they identify themselves as a

Christian organization, even if you feel like they go against the Bible, and that's not fair, that's still how they identify themselves.

Well, what if I said, I'm Muslim, and I eat pork, and I think

Muhammad, forgive me for saying this, but just to tell you, I think Muhammad was a pedophile, and I think the

Quran is not really true, but I'm Muslim. Would you say I'm Muslim? That's how you choose to identify. There are many things

I can tell you. But am I really a Muslim? But you know what, it's not my job to tell you whether or not you, it's you and your God at the end of the day.

If I tell you I don't really believe the Quran is true, and I'm Muslim. Well, at the end of the day, you're choosing to identify.

For example, you identify as a Christian. Because I believe what the Bible says.

But when you look at the Bible, there are so many things, like it says you shouldn't eat pork, it says, and how

Muslims interpret not getting tattoos, it's the same way. It says one should not harm oneself. Same thing is said in the

Bible, you have a tattoo. I might have very strict opinions of, I might interpret the

Bible a different way, and be like, I don't think you're a Christian. You have tattoos, you eat pork, you wear mixed linens,

I don't think you're a Christian. What I would do is I would take you to the Bible itself, like the passage in Leviticus you're referring to about tattoos, was about cutting and marking your dead, your body for the dead.

It was ancestor worship. People interpret scriptures differently. Out of context. I think differently.

The context, real fast, the context of the tattoos, as an example, the context of the tattoos passage, the context of the tattoos passage, was against cutting and marking your body for the dead.

It was ancestor worship. None of these were done as ancestor worship. But if somebody was

Christian, and they were like, oh, tattoos are included in that.

But I would say, let's go to the verse, it says cutting or marking your body for the dead.

They say you can't mix. Yeah, the apostle Paul answers that in Ephesians chapter 2. Can I answer the question?

In Ephesians chapter 2 he answers it, that now in Christ, because God has brought Jew and Gentile. I don't tend to be educated on the

Bible. Well, you brought up a point. Jesus said we can eat pork.

Okay, so can I ask you to answer this then? People can interpret the scriptures however they want.

So if it says love your neighbor as you love yourself, and I say no, that actually means to beat my neighbor.

Are they interpreting it correctly? When you say love your neighbor as you love yourself, do you think that implies to people like,

I've seen so many things where people identify as Christian, and they hate on their neighbor, maybe because they're part of the

LGBTQ community, maybe because they're religious Jews. I think that people are, I don't want to go back and forth with you.

I feel like we're not getting anywhere. I see your friends recording. I get it. I'm having a great conversation with you.

I respect you. I wanted to hear what you had to say. Look, if you want to have a better insight on what this is about, you can talk to the organizers.

Well, I just want to point out to you, and I mean this with as much humility and gentleness as I can. As we've been talking here,

I hope you can maybe later think about the fact that the foundation you're standing on doesn't work.

Every time that you were asked to take a look at what you're standing on and what you're saying, it collapsed.

You know, I would like to say that— And I should abandon those positions, too.

I would like to say, like, this stance, or like the poor choice, oh, that's wrong, but this is not a stance

I've always had or my family has always had. This was a stance that we've used and we need to, and I know you think that we're not educated on it, and you think

I'm not educated on it. No, I just think you're holding to a fallacious system. It doesn't benefit me to hold to this.

Or the children that are being murdered. You're right. It doesn't either. I'm saying that it doesn't benefit me to be—

Of course it benefits my children, but for example, let's say, personally, would I ever get an abortion? I don't think so.

So why would I come here and support poor choice? It's not because I'm like, I would want to get an abortion tomorrow because in case

I'm in that situation, I'll get an abortion in a heartbeat. It's not because of that. So give me the burst.

You're here to support this because? Because I see—I'm a woman.

I want to support other women. I've seen their pain. It's very easy, and I'm seeing this. And if you want to empathize with people,

I get it. You've adopted kids. You're like, oh, if these kids were aborted,

I wouldn't have ever adopted them. But I could be like, oh my God, what if I was aborted and I never was here?

We could think about that all day long, back on Wednesday. Well, hold on now. I respect you, so I want to hear your position.

You're here to support this because? I'm here to support this because I think women have the right to—

I think people have the right to choose whether or not—what they do with their bodies. By the way,

I agree with you. I agree with you, but what's in their body is not their body. Okay, but there are so many women who are vaped.

There are so many women who are forced to have these kids. How about—and then you don't even— there are so many people who are putting their life at risk.

So you believe we should kill the children of rapists. But I'm saying what makes you think that these kids are more important than the person who's holding them.

I don't think you realize— I believe they're equal. No, actually, I believe they're equal. It's me that believes that all humans are equal.

The child and the woman are both equal. But I think that, like, when you have— like, you don't understand why— it's not like abortion is like, oh my

God, I'd love to do this. Abortion's good. A lot of women are saying that over there. They're very proud. Have you heard them?

I'm saying that you don't realize how much abortions ruin somebody. I have friends who have gotten abortions. It destroys your body.

It makes it really hard to have kids in the future when you're in a better position. There's a lot of consequences for killing your child.

Yes. But this isn't people's first choice. They usually think through their choices. Have you talked to some of these women?

I have talked to them. They're bragging about it. They love the fact that they can kill their children. Similarly to how you guys love to be like, this is murder.

Put very graphic photos. You go to the extreme because you're trying to make a point, okay? Have you seen the pictures of the black slaves and their whipped backs and everything else?

Do you think we should show that? Or how about the Holocaust? Okay. Do you know the images of the Holocaust? Can we— Should we show those images?

I think correlating those issues is— similar to how I wouldn't correlate slavery in the

Holocaust, because I think that's ignorant. Well, here, what I mean by this is this. There's examples in history where human beings have drawn a circle around their group and they've dehumanized others.

You're doing that here with the defenseless, innocent humans in the womb. With our black brothers and sisters, they did it with them.

White people said, circle around us, oppress this class of people.

That's what they said. And so it is the same thing. It's just a different class of victim.

Look, if you think you're on the right side of history, we will find out, I'm sure, in the next decade.

I think I'm on the right side of truth because God has spoken, and we know what he says about this. He calls it murder. And that's okay if that's what you don't believe.

Not everybody's religious. Not everybody's a Christian. Everybody is religious. Everybody knows the same God. All of us, our problem is sin and rebellion.

Okay. And I wanted to just leave you with this. I want to leave you with this. You brought—the most important thing here for me to communicate to you with love is just that point you made earlier about Jesus.

He said that he's the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by him. He said that if you don't come to him for life, you'll be condemned.

He said he was coming to die for the sins of his people on the rise again, and that only through faith in him we can have peace with God.

And he is God incarnate walking among us, and he spoke. And that's how we can know things with certainty because God has spoken.

I asked you how you know anything at all. I don't mean this offensively. I didn't get an answer. But how

I know is God has spoken, and that's how I know. So how do you know that? Okay. I don't have a plan.

What was your name? I got up this morning. That's okay. I'm Jeff. I'm Jeff. Nice to meet you.