Open Lines, Mormon call in

And welcome to the dividing line we are live today at eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Inviting your participation on the program today sort of a grab bag of things. Nothing in particular as far as a particular theme in the sense of the last couple weeks.

We have been giving a response to Adrian Rogers have gotten a lot of well, I Probably though I wouldn't have time to do it should Somehow See what comes in I I know. Some people do I don't and I really wouldn't have time to read anyways, but I only get to see some of the positive stuff and maybe some of the most egregiously negative stuff and everything else gets shipped off to everybody else and they are faithful in answering those things as best they can but got a lot of response to the Adrian Rogers series and Hopefully folks were blessed by that but this week sort of a grab bag of things just various articles that have come to my attention and Things that are going on coming up in a week from this coming.

Mormon Debate at the University of Utah

Well, is it a well, it's two weeks from today. Let's put it that way is the general conference of the Mormon Church in Salt Lake City and Two weeks from this evening. I will be debating Dr. Martin Tanner and LDS attorney I've been on his program before and in fact, I am assuming we probably put the mp3s of the two programs that I know we digitized this week up on the website if you to listen to that I'm waiting for something to show up in a screen to tell me whether that's right or wrong.

I think so. I Love I love definite responses. I think so. Yes, maybe there's a high probability something like that anyways. You can hear those programs by downloading the mp3s these were from back and I Don't know 90 93 94 somewhere around there.

I don't recall that now how long ago those programs were. But we we did a couple programs myself Martin Tanner and Van Hale were on those programs in regard in regards to deification and the doctrine of God and that's what the topic is going to be about at the University of Utah on Saturday night October 6 that's at the University of Utah Student Union ballroom.

That is October 5th, I'm sorry 7 p .m. And if any of you are up in the Utah area would like more Details as to how to get there and things like that give Christ Orthodox Presbyterian Church a call at 801 -532 -5066 and You will find your way there and I guess that's the first topic this morning this morning this afternoon now well, depending on where you're listening, we have people listening all over the place and That is I've been informed that There has been some complaint on the part of some some well-known and some lesser well-known Members of the Mormon Church about the timing of the debate.

The past four debates that we've done have been on the Friday night before conference as I recall at least the last one was. And that's when I would rather do it. I mean, this is gonna be a long day for me.

That's got a long Saturday to be out of the temple in fact, I obviously will not be able to be out of the temple the whole day and maybe a number of our other people won't be able to either depending on the setup times and things like that and you know, that's that's not ideal and When we were first contacted by the folks up in Utah about doing it on Saturday night.

I said well What do you want to do to kill me? I mean that's that's gonna be a very very long day just to stand outside and talk to people and then You know do a debate against Martin Tanner can men become gods, but then it was explained to me.

Well, it's it's really an issue of forum. Where we're gonna have this we had the last debate at a high school auditorium was a very nice auditorium no two ways about it, but it wasn't really centrally located and So the idea was to get into a more centrally located area and the only time to do it when it was Financially feasible was that evening?

Well, of course I knew there is a a priesthood session going on at conference at that time. But only a certain number of people can go to that and certainly a lot of the local LDS people don't even go to conference.

I mean most of the LDS people that I know of in the in the Salt Lake area Don't go to conference regularly at all. I go to conference far more regular than they do and So, you know when it was explained to me, well, they're here, you know, here's situation.

This is why we're doing it this way. You know, okay fine. That's how it works. So Lo and behold we find out that Some people like with the shields website and dr. Daniel Peterson are complaining that this was scheduled for this Saturday of conference and I when I when I found that out I just I'm like It just blew me away a couple reasons.

So first of all, dr. Peterson hasn't come to these debates. In fact, he's been invited to these debates and has consistently declined being involved with them we've had BYU professors involved the debate before last the last debate was with a graduate of BYU a PhD from BYU who was head the religion department or the Institute of religion at the University of Utah for many years and and These folks haven't shown up then.

So why would there be an issue now? But of course the main main thing for me anyways that absolutely Amazes me about any complaints coming from Dr. Peterson is that he has declined our invitations to debate and you might say well, you know, so That's no big deal.

There's a lot of folks who don't necessarily Want to to debate and things like that and that's true. However, the one difference is that dr. Peterson has said that any day he would debate me. Specifically on the subject of theosis and he didn't just do it in in an offhand comment in you know over Beer and pretzels someplace.

That's a joke. He did it publicly and in fact, he did it on a major radio program and we have recording of that statement I'm gonna play it for you here in a moment and he did it in such a way as to almost in an offhand way just dismiss myself and.

And another gentleman as you'll see. And what we did is after inviting him. And he he actually did not even reject the invitation himself he had his wife call and do it. Then the folks up in Utah sent him this wave file where he himself makes reference to taking me on and Like well, you've said you'd do this now, here's your opportunity.

It's right in the Salt Lake City area. It's not like you're having to take time out of your schedule and travel all over the place or anything else. It's right there in Utah. So why not do this and he's not willing to do so here is that section?

He was on a radio program In California with Bill McKeever, and this is a three-hour Debate radio part wasn't really a debate at all. It was just radio program where they're going back and forth and and About somewhere in the second tape early second tape of that particular situation that particular encounter the subject of theosis came up the Concept discussed fairly extensively and one of the chapters and is the Mormon my brother.

That I go into what the early church fathers who mentioned it not everyone did. But those who mentioned theosis the concept of divinization what they meant to the fact that this did not Cause them to cease being monotheists and and in fact if you download the mp3s of the discussion on theosis and divinization with Martin Tanner and Van Hale you'll get much more of a discussion of it, but that had been presented by dr. Peterson.

And so the first voice that you'll hear Will be Bill McKeever responding to something that that Dr.. Peterson had said about theosis, and then you will hear Peterson's response.

One thing that was brought up is this idea that the early church fathers believe that men can become God. You know farms has been putting this information out for a long time. And it has been responded to on several occasions probably the most recent was in Richard Ossling's book Mormon America an excellent book on the subject and.

And he quotes various Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Leaders on this subject and they all agree that the Mormon position is not at all what the early church fathers believed. James White did an excellent expose of this in his book.

Is the Mormon my brother. I mean this has already been Responded to and the fact that they keep bringing this up regardless of the fact is just amazing to me. Well I would say we keep bringing it up because it's true and I'd be willing to go to go head-to-head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week.

I'd be willing. Oh hello. That's pretty. It's stopped there as immediately followed by Kenny G. Yes indeed. I'd be willing to go head-to-head any day of the week. Well, maybe he didn't include Saturdays.

Maybe that's that's a weekend instead of the day of the week. I don't know but It sounded to me. Anyways, I don't know about the rest of you. But it sounded to me Like he he really meant what he said in the sense that well look you know I don't.

I'm not. I'm not saying well That's true. Someone pointed out he rejected the Friday debate last time. That's that's true. He did there that I was obviously being somewhat facetious at that point, but It sounded to me anyways like he really did intend to say That he was willing to debate that issue because it's true.

Let's listen again what he said.

One thing that was brought up is this idea that the early Church Fathers believe that men can become God. You know farms has been putting this information out for a long time. And it has been responded to on several occasions probably the most recent was in Richard Ossling's book Mormon America an excellent book on the subject and.

And he quotes various Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Leaders on this subject and they all agree that the Mormon position is not at all what the early Church Fathers believed. James White did an excellent expose of this in his book.

Is the Mormon my brother. I mean this has already been Responded to and the fact that they keep bringing this up regardless of the fact is just amazing to me. Well I would say we keep bringing it up because it's true and I'd be willing to go to go head-to-head with any of those people on this issue any day of the week.

Well if dr. Peterson's listening to this and I do know that folks from shields and other places monitor this program. Let me let me point a few things out you see the problem is if you go to is the more in my brother and you go to specifically the appendix on theosis starts on page 207 I document the misuse of early Church Fathers by such Individuals as Stephen Robinson and interestingly enough Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen Ricks, and I would like to hear how dr. Peterson would respond to the contextual citations of The early Church Fathers that they miss cited.

I would like to be able to present the context surrounding Quotations that dr. Peterson has put in print as a leading LDS scholar and say could you explain possibly sir? Exactly how it is that you could put this in print and yet when you read it in context.

It says the exact opposite of what you seemingly want people to believe that it said so dr. Peterson there in his own words said I will debate this issue any day so dr. Peterson hey live up to your words, man.

You're the one that said it. Let's do theosis. Let's do. Did the early Church Fathers teach Mormonism. Did they teach the LDS doctrine of God and If you say well, they didn't actually teach the LDS doctrine of God, but they taught things that that modern Christians don't believe.

Okay, then why do you raise these issues? I'm gonna go back to that 19. It was a 1986 article in the enzyme. Maybe 1989. I've got the you know a lot of material in that particular article that you wrote dr. Peterson along with I believe it was Stephen Ricks on this very subject.

Let's debate the issue. Let's let's find out if all this bluster. That was you know you're you're the one that won the program. You didn't have to say what you said. You didn't have to say any day. You know I'll take those we keep bringing up because it's true.

Well, let's find out if it's true. As dr. Peterson knows the host that program had no interest in. Even discussing early Church Fathers in fact after I said well We don't want to get into early Church Fathers, and I understand as a radio host.

Given his audience that that's that's probably You know understandable. He'd probably lose most everybody if he had people sitting there talking about early Church Fathers. This is probably the only program and because it's a webcast.

But the only program out there where we could actually discuss the early Church Fathers. And and everybody would enjoy it because let's face it if you tune in to the dividing line. You're a little bit on the weird side anyways, so I understand why he did that.

But hey in a debate where you announced beforehand what the subjects gonna be then we could do that and someone said well, you know there's some some other folks that You know have written on this subject and and but see Daniel Peterson is Really high up in farms and farms wants to be out there on the front line and wants to be seen as the leading LDS apologetics organization all the rest of stuff and and I think to get folks out there.

It would be really nice If if dr. Peterson would basically do what he said he'd do. But so far he won't do that and that's what taking us back to the subject here, that's what makes The dividing line a weird people production.

Amen. That's what makes complaining About having this debate on a Saturday by dr. Peterson absolutely amazing to me. Why in fact what's been said and this is this is what causes me to truly? Take note of all this what's being said is we don't want to have Mormons there.

Well, why do you think we do this the whole reason is to have Mormons there? There's there's no desire whatsoever to not have why would we not want to have more if we didn't want to have Mormons there?

We do this in New York You know go where go where the Mormons aren't. Why the world we go to the University of Utah To discuss the Mormon doctrine of divinization and deification and the eternal law of progression if we don't want Mormons there.

I just well, you know when I I just I don't know what to say. I you don't want to have Mormons. That's why you're having it the night of the priesthood session. No, we just want to have woman Mormons there.

That's we that's the whole thing. Yeah, we're we're gonna have you know, lacy little things to put drinks on and things like that. Come on. Of course, we want to have Mormons there. We've wanted to have Mormons at every single one of them.

It just doesn't not make sense to me. What so ever. Yes the ladies aren't coming because they're all at the Deseret bookstore for ladies night, but we know because we frequently go there and Scan through the new publications and stuff like that and see the authors sitting outside doing their little Book signings and fight through the crowds at the at the food court at ZCMI Center there and hey, I just realized I We're gonna have to make a special Arrangement to make sure that I can still get my crisp meat burritos Before the debate maybe after the debate.

Hmm. Yeah before the debate might not be a good idea I want I want to be able to stay through the entire debate is What you want to be able to do late night taco time. That's right. There you go open 24 hours crisp meat burrito I don't know the last Last time we were at at taco time late.

You remember that's that's right We got thrown out by some 18 year old manager who did not have any idea about how to How to keep your customers coming back. That's for sure. I Do love crisp meat burritos though that tell you they are they are really really good.

Well, anyways, I just found that to be really strange so those of you in the Utah area, please feel free to make arrangements to make the pilgrimage to the University of Utah and Be with us for the debate.

If you are LDS, yes, we do want you to come to the debate that is the whole reason that that we're doing the whole thing and I have absolutely positively no idea why anyone would say otherwise, but hey, hey, oh Gross, crispy meat burritos.

No crispy meat burritos are good. They are very good. I don't like when people say the crispy meat burritos are not good. They are very very good and stop saying that they're not very very good. Anyways, I I'd kick ban that person, but that would be a really dumb thing to do.

So You really need to be in the channel for stuff like this. So anyways pray for the outreach, of course many of you remember last time we had We had a real problem at the conference with with the King James only fundamentalist folks with their their their street abuse signs and I don't know what's gonna happen this time around and I I really don't know how we're gonna do all this stuff as far as getting set up and and Being out there and everything.

I just don't know but we will we will find out one way or the other and Yes, we do have some extra expenses involved this trip and You know, I I don't talk about this much. That's probably one of the reasons why We stay as small as we do but friend of mine reminded me he said, you know, I've been Been talking with folks and and whenever I mentioned funds they go they sort of look at me like well, you know James never mentions Support for the ministry.

So we just sort of assume it's everything's always taken care of. Well, it's not I just don't like talking about things like that. But just a reminder. We do not have some Some rich person who has opened up a bank account for us and just pours some unending stream of money in there.

We were rich was talking to to a ministry sometime last week I think him and they made the statement. Well, you know, we're really not a big ministry. We only have one floor and 40 employees and we just have to laugh at that.

We have one floor, too it's called the floor of the garage and two employees and We we do a lot With with what we've got but we are you know A lot of times folks will say well since they never saying about it.

Then my 10 or 15 or 20 dollars wouldn't make a difference. Actually, it does a great deal of difference we have a very small supporter base because we've basically offended every religious group in the world and so just a reminder that Yes, we do make pennies scream before we let them go but those pennies have to come in before we can torture them and so we do have Expenses coming up with Utah and then only a month later.

I'm doing two debates at in Orlando Against dr. John Sanders on inclusivism and open theism and we very much want to have those videotaped and it Takes money to do that. It's you know, we got to fly people out and we got to put them up and and they got to eat stuff and so on and so forth, so Keep us in your prayers.

And if you do have a budget for supporting ministries, we would very much appreciate to being a part of that. We don't talk a lot about it. You can go back through the archives the dividing line and you'll find a very very very very very small number of Programs in which this particular subject has been Has been discussed you lost your Mormon, North Carolina support Don't have any idea what that is.

Anyways, just sort of reading what's going on in the Going on in the channel and I have no idea Sometimes you look in there and you haven't you have no idea what's going on. So keep our outreaches in mind and support in mind there as as well.

I also keep hitting the mp3 page every time I walk out of my office, I note that the The recorder is cranking away and the the digitizer is is busily well digitizing and we're putting those mp3s up there and I am told that there's going to be some rearranging of the shopping cart on the mp3s and stuff like that and so keep hitting it because a lot of stuff that maybe you didn't do you just didn't want to buy a tape and then pay for shipping and stuff like that and Oh, oh, oh Excuse me.

Let's see. No, that's it. You select here. You go up here Control kick why I am NOT Bob Larson, there you go. Okay Don't do that man that that's not nice Moving on to other things. Yeah, look watch for the mp3s and There's gonna be all sorts of in fact, we're finally only six months later but we're finally gonna get the the debate from Salt Lake City the last time up there fairly soon not an MP well, I imagine we'll be up there at mp3 format too, but also the Videotape and stuff like that.

I Have the moving on from there. I get lots of weird stuff in the mail. I used to get lots of weirder stuff in the mail. I remember Back when we lived in an apartment I always I actually felt a little guilty because I was concerned that maybe I was causing my my postman to stumble Because I had a lot of really weird stuff coming in the mail.

I mean really really really weird stuff. I was taking stuff from the Ambassador College you know the old Armstrong folks before they switched their views and and I would get the watchtower and Mormon stuff and Stuff from the Moonies and I was just getting all this stuff because I was you know doing a lot of study and I still get some weird stuff, but not quite as much and I Am on the Catholic answers mailing list and of course they They send that stuff out to Everybody.

I mean if you've ever ordered anything from that, I just I just tried to order something from them and a few weeks later I get an email some of you may have experienced difficulties with our shopping cart.

If so, please call and reorder whatever it was you ordered and I'm like, well, we'll see but anyways they Send out their email that not actually they send out emails. One of which didn't even work and they also send out these fundraising letters and then they sell their stuff to other people.

And so I get stuff from you know, you know, would you like to become a priest, you know, and and oh, yeah I'm sure they just love to have me do that and Would like to become a nun, you know, that's that's that that one's totally out of the ballpark.

And then I open these things up and a lot of my just, you know, check them out. But I always read the Catholic answer stuff and man the last Catholic answers fundraising letter I you know, it was pretty hard not to pick up the pen and write out the check.

It really was because here's this thing from Carl Keating and James Aiken and I Did not know that by supporting Catholic answers I would be fighting Muslim terrorists and I want to fight Muslim terrorists.

So, you know, maybe that's what we should do. And I started thinking about it and I realized no that doesn't really make much sense. Does it? Fight Muslim terrorists support Catholic answers. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, all right, well I found that was very strange and then I also get inside the Vatican. This is the August September 2002 issue the cover is a horrible pitch picture of Cardinal Ratzinger just blue I mean sort of a Bela Lugosi Vincent Price cross type picture of Cardinal Ratzinger, it's just horrible.

If I were him, I'd sue but anyways the the title on the main page is the Eucharist heart of the faith Ratzinger why the Eucharist is the source of Christian life and of the struggle for justice it's basically, there's a the the word is that there is a new encyclical being written by John Paul the second and This is sort of a preview I guess you might say of This encyclical and if it is it's gonna be really weird very strange stuff in here, but anyhow, I'm looking through it and Well, I don't know if I should give these folks free advertising but Toward the back is a page 75 at the bottom I was just thumbing through looking at articles and you know, there was you know, this person died woman excommunicated for such and such Things and Seven women who took part June 29th in Austria in a Simulated priestly ordination were officially excommunicated at midnight Monday the deadline set by the Vatican for them to renounce their ordination the deadline came in a monotone or canonical warning issued by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Prefect of the congregation of the doctrine of the faith that is by the way the modern version of the Inquisition.

Okay, so anyone was wondering July 10th He called in the seven women to acknowledge that the ordinate ordination was invalid and repent publicly and so on so forth. Well, that's that's good. But shouldn't she also kick out the folks that are promoting that stuff.

I've not quite figured that but anyways right across the page Right across the page at the at the bottom is an ad and there's this smiling couple in in. You know, he's wearing a tux and she's wearing a wedding gown and it says single and Catholic 102 marriages 37 engagements.

Ave Maria singles calm Ave Maria singles calm. I love it. Oh, well They someone actually went on the site and they they actually figured out that only 2 of the people that signed up It actually got engaged.

So I was like, yeah, you've got to sign up with us. You have a 98 chance of remaining single. Oh Anyways, I was looking through it. I shouldn't be so silly, but I couldn't help it because. Because the inside front cover now folks Once in a while when when some my books come out from Bethany house, I've heard Discussions amongst people at at Bethany house about what advertising costs, you know, they'll buy an ad for a book in Christianity Today or something like that and man you're talking Huge amounts of money, I mean a lot of money and so the inside front cover full color of the August September 2002 inside the Vatican meet the real Mary.

Don't miss the newest release in the footprints of God video series and here you have just 24 95 each. $25 per videotape for 70 minutes. You have this series. It's being put together by Stephen Ray now.

Yeah, you've heard about Stephen Ray before you can read about Stephen Ray on our website we have some interesting emails from Stephen Ray. Stephen Ray does not like me very well and He's doing something for Ignatius Press and I I don't know how well actually it's really easy.

If you to see this exact same picture. That I'm looking at right here because I'm trying to figure out if maybe this is the direction that we should go. Okay, y 'all tell me if this ain't the direction we should go because if you look if you go over we could crash a server here, but If you go over to Catholic convert calm, it's Catholic convert calm.

You will find Stephen Ray's website and when you go over there Up at the top on the main page. We're not talking, you know, I've got some personal pictures of me on our website. But they're down, you know, you go to James White you go to the bio.

You go down to the bottom of the bio you follow some links around things like that. And if someone wants to find out some personal stuff about me, you know. There's a few things up there. But what I like to do and riding bike and lifting weights and playing tennis and playing chess and stuff like that fine but on the main page now if you're gonna put a picture of an apologist on The main page what kind of a picture you're gonna put there.

Well, if you go to Catholic convert calm you'll see this picture and it is right smack dab right here in the middle of this ad in full color is is the the Catholic crocodile hunter apologist Stephen Ray because you got a look at it.

Okay I mean he's wearing the Australian hat and he's got the vest thing going down. What does an apologist need with a pair of glasses and I'm not talking eyeglasses here. I'm talking binoculars around his neck.

Is that to find the truth? Possibly? I don't know but it's just. It's you know, I've been thinking hey, you know, he's. No. Yeah. Hold on a second. I forgot about the break. He's sitting here. He's gotta be doing pretty good because I mean he's getting 25 bucks a pop.

I don't even have a book that cost 25 bucks a pop. I mean my 400 page book on justification hardback doesn't cost 25 bucks. He's getting 25 bucks a pop from Ignatius Press. He must be doing okay. So evidently when we come back from this break, maybe we should discuss what kind of picture I should put on our front page.

Yeah, we got to take the break. So hey eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. Maybe you'd like to call with a suggestion or something else here on the dividing line. And welcome we need to lengthen that one.

It just goes boom right out of there and we need to lengthen this lengthen the music out on that one. Welcome back to dividing line took our break a little bit late there and sitting here just waiting.

For all of the insightful phone calls that eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one do not. Do not be one of those people who procrastinates and waits another 45 minutes. And then calls in with some in-depth question and has to get a rushed answer and then the music starts and it's all done.

Hey, it's seven seven seven five three three three four one. So what do you think? I I do not. I am NOT into the Australian outback look and so my thought was I do I Do ride a motorcycle. I've ridden a motorcycle for many many years.

I haven't had one all that time, but I have one again right now. I have a Yamaha Virago 1100 it's not a new one. It's low mileage, but it's not a new one, but it is an 1100 CC motorcycle it's a it rumbles pretty nice and I was thinking of sort of you know, a leather jacket and the black leather helmet and the boots and you know that type of thing on on the on the Virago and Something along the lines of Theology ain't for wimps.

How does that sound? Does that sound like something we should do? Should we should we go with this or should we just you know, actually sort of figure that? Yeah, probably not a good idea. I still don't know what the field glasses are for.

What are the field glasses for? I Mean, I'm sort of look at some of the topics here. Mm-hmm. We've got Let's see, the first one was on I was on Peter Peter keeper of the keys. That's his big thing is the is the thing about Oh George text beating BYU.

That's good to know anyways, Peter keeper the keys that's his big thing. Steve Ray likes to talk about the papacy and stuff like that and We of course have Invited mr. Ray to debate publicly on the issue of the papacy and Mary and things like that, but he's not not interested in doing so so People ask How do you respond to his stuff?

Well, we'd love to respond to his stuff and in public and in a formal way where he has the opportunity of responding to it. But so far he has not been willing to do that. So I found that ad very very interesting maybe we'll have to you know, track down these tapes and Then put out our own tape responding to him.

Maybe that's the only way we could do that and Yeah, it's gonna be fun describing the topics of this particular dividing line, isn't it outreaches pictures of Roman Catholic apologists the motorcycles.

The only thing I'm not going to do is I'm not going to discuss PDAs today. We are not going to discuss handspring visors. Because handspring isn't making them anymore, which is a very sad thing. Very very sad thing indeed and we're not going to be discussing Palm Pilots or Sony Cleo's or Anything's like that because we've we've done that before and we exhaust that topic very very very quickly 877 -753 -3341 now I do need to In fairness to the audience let you know that if we if we do not fill all of our time that Warren is with us today and I heard He does he isn't aware of this, but I heard him humming some Elvis tunes just recently and Yeah, he knew that was coming and You do not want Hey, I got it I think that the doc needs to sit on the shoe chair and mrs. Doc needs to sit on the Momo.

There you go. Yeah, okay. Yeah, we have a shoe chair at my house and I don't I don't know it's amazing even admitting this but I will not sit in in the shoe chair at all and that's just it's it's just not a manly thing to do and But I am gonna get mrs. Doc on on the motorcycle and that'll be that'll be a great picture as we go Running down the running down the street.

She actually got met back I don't remember it was we rode all the way up through through Sedona to Flagstaff on my old yeah, that was in Yamaha Suzuki GS 750 L and Anyone who's ever been up route 89 through Sedona the switchbacks.

It's a beautiful ride. It's wonderful. Well, it was back then now Sedona is this new age? Wacko aid Center you got a you got to be very careful driving through town you don't run over some wacky new ager who's looking up for the mothership while crossing the road and It's really congested there now and it used to be really beautiful even in I know I see that even in the even in the city, but You know now it's just really really crowded and it's sort of like climbing Squaw Peak this morning I could not believe I mean we're talking traffic jams.

Not only trying to find a parking place, but ah going up that trail Phoenix is growing and it's growing way too fast and that I sound like an old man anymore. But anyways 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 41 is the number and we have had Someone take advantage of that toll-free number, which I keep forgetting to mention.

It is toll-free and His name is Pierre in Centerville, Virginia. Hello Pierre. Hello. Hi. Yes, sir, you're on the air, okay.

What can I do for you? I was calling to. Like your program that you're broadcasting a different from what you're saying on the phone.

Well, I'm not sure if you're probably. Are you possibly listening to an archived broadcast. I thought I was listening to a live broadcast. Well, hey, we'll. What's what's the what's the discussion on what you're listening to?

Anyway, what I was calling about was I've been listening to your Discussion about Adrian Rogers Viewpoints about salvation, right? Free will. And I guess the the question that always comes to my mind that bothers me about The Calvinistic view is that there seems to be no regard to the moral issues.

They seem to push these aside about God choosing people for hell. He seems to create them and the whole concept of the Potter and the clay seems to be that God creates people with the soul intent of having him suffer in hell for an eternity and That seems to be for me a real disconnect with what I read in the scriptures about the compassionate nature of Christ and God's Seeming at least anyway.

Desire to be compassionate towards people.

God’s Sovereign Mercy and Human Responsibility

Yeah, Pierre, that's that's exactly the objection that was raised to apostolic doctrine by Paul himself. His imaginary objector pretty much used those very same words in Romans 9 to say pretty much the the exact same thing and.

Well, what is your answer? Oh, well the same answer that that Paul gave Romans 919 you will say them in why does he still find fault for who resists his will and first of all in and I don't know what program you were listening to but one of the things that I emphasized in response to Adrian Rogers is when you focus upon the just punishment of sinners who are rebels who hate God and Who spit in his face and spit at his truth when you emphasize that as the central aspect of God's predestination?

You've missed the biblical truth. The amazing statement of Abraham are of Jacob. I loved the Esau. I hated is not Esau. I hated the amazing thing of that statement. Is it Jacob? I loved and Most people don't understand that especially if they have not been convicted of their own sin and a recognition of the depth of their own depravity.