Does the Gospel Really Come with a House Key?

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Does the gospel really come with a house key? That's what we're going to talk about today on conversations with the calvinists which begins right now Welcome back to conversations with the calvinists My name is keith bosky and I am a calvinist and i'm joined today again in studio with uncle rich Hey, uncle rich.

00:35

How you doing, buddy? I'm doing good brother.

00:36

How you doing? I'm doing very good And if you notice we are doing something a little different in studio today We have a multi-cam setup, which is exciting because we used to look a little bit like this Nakalulu And that is not the way we want to do it anymore.

00:49

We don't want to sit with our knees touching This is nice because I can actually have a conversation.

00:54

This is called conversation with the calvinists Now I can actually look at you and have a conversation and the audience can see us they can see you Agreeing.

01:01

I like that.

01:02

You're agreeing.

01:03

All right, and I just have to remember to uh to switch cameras back and forth We don't have a producer or a director.

01:09

What we have is uh is me Well, if they keep hitting that share button, that's right, maybe one day one day we may be yeah, absolutely Well today we're going to be talking about the subject of hospitality recently rich and I have both done studies and taught through uh, the letters of john particularly second and third john which deals with the subject of hospitality and so Today we thought that was a good subject for us to opine about and talk about and we're even going to be Doing a sort of a mini review of the book.

01:41

The gospel comes with a house key by rosaria butterfield So, but that's going to be later in the show Also want to mention this if you came here and you wanted to learn about hospitality You saw the name of the video you saw the thumbnail and you're excited about that You want to jump past some of this preliminary stuff? There is chapters in the youtube video, which will take you directly to the main subject of today's video But I want to say this we do have winners of the book that we were giving away last week So if you are a regular listener and you you uh put in to win the book, you don't want to miss that So the first part is going to be the preliminary But if you want to jump ahead to the main subject you can do that in the chapters below first things first We got a few things to get out of the way And of course one of the things that we have to get out of the way that we do every week is craziest things this week All right, uncle rich we're going to be doing the craziest thing this week.

02:33

Now.

02:33

You don't know what it is I have no idea.

02:35

That's right I always like to surprise my guests with whatever the craziest thing this week is But I want to say I think you've seen this So you might get excited when it pops up because I I was excited when I when I went and clipped the video This is something that someone shared with me on facebook I think it's interesting and I thought we might spend just a couple of minutes talking about this is uh, this is I think the very essence of uh, Well, I don't know if it's the essence of big eva.

03:00

I think it's the essence of trying to be entirely relevant Look if you had one shot or one opportunity To seize everything you ever wanted one moment Would you capture it or just let it slip? Once in a lifetime Oh, I don't like the hook it's No, you heard him say yo Yo, oh my gosh, I've seen where you shared that And I did I got to yo, and then I just shut it off But now watching it all the way through those poor folks None of those old ladies was into this at all.

04:08

They're like this is the dumbest thing i've ever done in my life.

04:10

Why? Why are we doing this? I want to I I want to just mention a comment Okay This was from facebook and it has to be the the comments on this video are oh, there gotta be gold But one dude said this is what happens When you order your m&m cd off a wish Oh my god We're not used to multicam and rich is here Okay, but for real What you said is the truth These these elderly folks beautiful lovely saints of god are going Why? I know they're they had no desire to do that whatsoever And i'm trying to rap lyrics In unison is what? And this is church Is this a church service Oh, I I can only assume because I think that dude was the was the youth or not the youth the choir director This man is a choir director.

05:29

Well, what shot is he talking about? You can't miss.

05:32

I don't know I don't know uncle rich I don't know.

05:36

It's just When when attempts maybe we start a new segment called when attempts at relevance Go bad, that's a that because that's number one right now.

05:47

That's number goodness.

05:48

Absolutely Yeah, i've seen that.

05:50

All right.

05:50

Well, that was the craziest thing we have seen or actually that's the craziest thing I've seen So we want to go ahead and move to the next part of the program Which is the giving away of our books We mentioned last week that we had two books that we were giving away on the program if you went onto our youtube page and you Put in the name of your favorite pastor And we had several people do that and the books that we're giving away are five things every christian needs to grow and 10 indictments against the modern church we had 13 names that went into the hat this week And so we are going to be randomizing those names uncle rich and I have been talking about this and we Have looked over the names and there is one name particular that won't win and that's uncle rich's name because he decided to go put His name so if his name happens to pop up at the top, then we will just randomize again But this is going to tell us who the winner is And once we have that winner, we'll let you know on youtube and you'll be able to send me your address so that I can Have these books sent out to you.

06:50

All right, so here we go.

06:51

I'm randomizing and we are We have the winner and the winner is Kenny roberts, which is actually a Guest of the program.

07:07

He has been on the program before that is pastor.

07:09

Kenny roberts Of mission way church here in jacksonville.

07:13

So pastor.

07:13

Kenny, you are now the proud owner Five things every christian needs to grow by dr.

07:18

Rc sproll and 10 indictments against the modern church So you were the winner my friend? We are thankful for you participating and everyone participating And we want to let you know that we have other book giveaways that are coming soon So keep watching and listening to the program.

07:32

In fact one gentleman Donated two brand new Reformation study bibles, mr.

07:38

Dubia, uh on facebook reached out to me.

07:41

It's two one hardback and one softback So in a future program, uh, i'm thinking about doing it Maybe as like a valentine's giveaway like a couple's gift where we give uh, His and hers and you can decide who gets the hardback and who gets the softback But uh, i'm thinking about doing that maybe closer to february So keep listening to the program for our giveaways and thanks to everyone who's been donating these books were donated We have the bibles that are donated the person who donated these has donated some more.

08:06

We're going to do some more later So thank you for participating and uh, and continuing to listen to and support the program All right.

08:13

So now we move on to Battle of decades or Would you rather and uncle rich i'm going to give you the chance to? Decide would you rather play battle of the decades or would you rather play? Would you rather? Or maybe i'll pull a claude ramsey and do both.

08:30

Okay.

08:31

Well, that's possible too.

08:32

Mr Claude did do both and we could do both.

08:35

Uh, we have these cards now now these cards are uh, Some things that my wife got for christmas.

08:40

These are called battle of the decades cards and they have some pretty difficult trivia from the different decades and it is the 80s 90s 2000s and 2010 so uncle rich i'm gonna i'm gonna draw a card.

08:54

I just I just mixed them up.

08:55

I'm gonna draw a card And i'm gonna ask you to choose a decade choose a decade Well, i'm gonna go with the 90s, I think that's my best shot of answering anything but i've been watching and these questions are like Out from left field and I can already tell there's no chance i'm getting this right i was gonna say um I don't have a lot of hope but hey You might surprise me in school rich was like he was in advanced classes and he was I mean he was a smarty pants I slept through the advanced classes Um Well, here we go, all right, so uncle rich the 1990s question for today who became president of france In 1995 Dude you gotta find some better questions, man.

09:50

This is This is demonstrating.

09:53

This is demonstrating something about our lack of uh, Because I had no idea who save a bear style hospital, even though everybody on twitter let me know that it wasn't steve Well, I'm going to tell you right now I ain't got no clue who became the president of france You need to get like some pop culture Don't these look very pop culture? I would think so.

10:20

Yeah It looks like you know, you'd think that was a pop culture thing It's it's I mean even the little on the back.

10:26

All right.

10:27

Well, the answer is jacques chirac.

10:29

Yeah, there's no chance I couldn't have guessed that.

10:33

All right.

10:33

Well, let's just see if you could have got the 2000 question What is the name? of the hillary mantle novel Okay, who's hillary mantle twitter i'm gonna just throw this out there on Okay, I have the answer here i'm not even gonna give it because I don't think you know or care I ain't got clue.

10:56

If you're on twitter or on facebook and you answer this question Uh, then then you will have won a cool prize.

11:03

I don't know what the cool price can be yet But what is the name of the hillary mantle novel that won the man booker prize in 2009? if you if you go on to twitter or facebook and you uh, And you give me the answer which I would have no idea I have it here, but I wouldn't have any idea then you will i'll give you a shout out on the next program If you go on i'll shout out everybody who says the answer to What is the name of the hillary mantle novel that won the man booker prize in 2009? Also, if you have a if you have a recommendation recommendation for a better game I should bring my seinfeld game.

11:36

I've actually bought me a seinfeld trivia game I got some office trivia the office there.

11:41

Maybe we'll do that.

11:42

Maybe or we might be violating some copyrights though I don't know.

11:46

We'll see.

11:47

All right.

11:47

Well, we're gonna do which one there you go This one is a little different one.

11:51

I can uh, which one is not a uh, this one's not this one's this one does not require any gray matter Or any any any particular, uh, uh understanding of Geography or or uh history.

12:06

All right.

12:07

So you just have to choose red or blue my man Blue blue.

12:10

All right.

12:11

So blue i'm gonna pick two cards at random And We're going to do now This game is called.

12:21

Would you rather it's actually called which one but I call it.

12:24

Would you rather and out of the blue? And you have to tell me why Would you rather? Be stung on the face by a wasp Or eat ants on your ice cream Oh I did ants on my ice cream in a heartbeat.

12:43

I think that yeah I was gonna say some people did like do that on purpose.

12:47

It's like a delicacy in some places I wouldn't call it that but I think I could get I could down A couple spoonfuls of ants versus having my face swole up from a wasp sting.

12:57

All right Let's do this.

12:58

Just just real quick.

12:59

Let's do a red one Let's do red one because these are a little bit more.

13:02

Uh, the red ones I think are a little bit more Uh rough because i've gone through a few of these with my kids.

13:06

Okay, the red ones are okay.

13:08

So, all right Okay, these are a little tougher, okay, would you rather eat the same meal for the rest of your life Or always smell like a dog That's better That's better.

13:24

All right, you want to smell like a dog rich? um, I would uh, i'd rather eat the same meal for the rest of my life because If you smell like a dog smell like a dog all the time one that's gonna be rough marriage is over To um But would she want to eat the same? I guess she doesn't have she didn't have to i'm the only one Yeah, I guess it depends on the meal See, it doesn't specify the meal.

13:47

That's true Yeah, if it was a bad meal, that'd be rough.

13:49

That'd be rough But I mean, I guess if I get to choose the meal I could I could eat the same meal the rest of my life versus smell like a dog forever because that's dog stinks Yeah, dog's funky.

14:01

Yeah, exactly Number one that hard.

14:04

All right.

14:04

Well now we can move on to the serious topic.

14:06

There we go All right so we're going to now move on to the portion of the show that we have prepared for and this is the Serious biblical topic and I do enjoy having biblical conversations with you rich.

14:22

I'm thankful that you uh, you you You come on the show and and share your your years of bible study with us and your wisdom okay, and But also I want to mention that you actually went above and beyond for today's program because you Did you actually read a book for today's program? This is a book that I had read formally with my wife a few years ago um, but you went over the last two weeks you you nailed it went through it ran through it and uh, right I um well, I read the first Four or five chapters over the course of a week and then last night I had to bust out 100 and something pages Oh, wow, look at you Over there and I fell behind.

15:02

All right well, we are uh, we the book that we're talking about is called the gospel comes with a house key by uh, Rosaria Butterfield and this is uh, I guess it didn't come with a dust jacket.

15:14

Is that that one? That was it's actually a gift to my wife Gotcha, and that's how it came.

15:19

So gotcha.

15:20

Well, that's fine.

15:21

Uh, But for those of you who are familiar rosaria butterfield has uh, Wrote this book several years ago.

15:28

It was it was fairly widely distributed, especially among people that I listened to Dr.

15:34

James white and others had had really talked about her as somebody worth reading somebody worth listening to uh, particularly in the area of the issue of the lgbt issue because she herself being a former lesbian university professor now uh wife uh pastor's wife and uh, so her situation Radically changed when she became a believer now I do want to make mention of this because I feel like I almost have to we one We're sort of on the back end of this a lot of people reviewed this book when it first came out And this is as I said, this isn't really a full book review We want to talk about the subject of hospitality, but because this book Addresses the subject of radical hospitality.

16:19

That's that's why we're doing this also.

16:21

Um since then There have been some debates especially within some of the reformed podcasts and stuff over the uh, some of the things that she has said regarding um Same-sex attraction and the use of pronouns and things like that Um, we're not going to get into that today because that that's that's that's not our our subject.

16:42

We're not We've talked about those things and we're not afraid to talk about those things But but we really just want to address the subject of hospitality And talk about her book and what it says and what the bible says And try to address that because I think if if if we go down that other rabbit hole We're going to go into a place.

17:01

We really don't want to get into right and I think that her What she has said regarding this subject sort of stands on its own merits.

17:08

Um, Independently of what she feels about whether or not we should use You know pronouns, you know for people, uh, you know, uh specific, uh, Non-binary pronouns things like that, right? I don't think that's something that we we need to really deal with it and and if and if that makes it to where You feel like you can't read the book.

17:27

That's fine You know if you feel like you you just can't trust anything that she says, you know, we're not we're not here We're not we're not here giving a full endorsement to her.

17:34

We're saying we read the book We think there's some things that we want to talk about from the book, right? We think there's some good we think there's some things that are not so good That's what we're doing, right? Yeah, okay And for those who don't want to read the book because of something she may have said here there um, i'm just reminded of uh, and I took this to heart when I read 12 rules for life from Jordan Peterson And that one is always listen to the other person like they might actually teach you something You can still learn from other people you may disagree with on a couple of things so and don't be afraid to expose yourself to Other opinions or points of view because that's how you learn and anyway but There's not a whole lot of that in this book to be honest with you Yeah, I think like I said, I think we could probably Endorse a good bit of the book.

18:18

Oh, yeah There's only a few things and you have some notes there We're going to talk about some of the things that we might take issue with but to sort of introduce the topic I do have a video that I brought in for us today Okay, and I want to say this off the bat.

18:31

I don't own the rights to this video So hopefully I don't get hit with a copyright issue This is put out by crossway because they I believe were the ones is crossway the the publisher of the book.

18:40

Um, Yep, crossway is so this so so really I hope crossway wouldn't get upset because we're actually encouraging people read the book, right? And so we're showing this video as it was a promo anyway So hopefully there won't be any issues with us showing this so this is rosaria butterfield Describing her definition What she could what she would argue is the biblical definition of hospitality.

18:59

Okay, and so it's only a one minute video Hopefully like I said, we don't get any copyright strikes on this So Hospitality biblically speaking means love of the stranger so it transliterates from a greek word phyloxenia So what hospitality is not? Um is fellowship.

19:18

There's nothing wrong with fellowship.

19:20

We love fellowship we love having our friends over who think the way we do and they're safe and and we can just catch up right where we left off, but That's not actually hospitality Hospitality has The stranger in mind because we were once strangers to the lord so That's what hospitality is radically ordinary.

19:44

Hospitality is a a way of life That sees every day As an opportunity to practice hospitality From right where you are So you don't actually have to be somebody else to do this You have to be you You know hospitality is a it's a universal command uniquely applied And I think that we all need to think about how we're all needed in this.

20:18

There's there's only one you And you will apply this Differently than I will and that's okay But nobody gets a free pass You don't get to not ever practice hospitality Now there are seasons when we're going to ebb and flow but if it's a lifestyle of refusal That's called sin All right.

20:52

So that is uh her definition as I said her argument for the biblical definition of hospitality And that was the first time you've seen that video.

21:00

Yes.

21:01

It was first time I've seen that video Do you have any thoughts immediately from what she said? um Well given that we're we we just finished up Second john and i'm going into third john and we mentioned that at the beginning of the program Of why we wanted to do this video is I agree whether hospitality is important, especially of the stranger because um Third john addresses that when john is writing to gaius.

21:27

He makes he commends him for his um Welcoming of the stranger as well as his love of the brethren and you know taking care of them as well Um, so there's both by her definition fellowship and hospitality going on But and well, I guess we'll get into this as well the first thought that comes to my mind as far as you know Uh hospitality to the stranger being for the stranger Is there are some? limits to that even biblically uh, because John makes it clear when he wrote to the lady In um second john that if You're not to be hospitable toward false teachers Don't even give them a greeting don't let them in your house So there are limits to it biblically to how hospitable you are now I don't think She's talking about false teachers.

22:17

She's just talking about strangers in general who are outside of the faith bring them in their house and Demonstrating christ before them both in word and deed Which is exactly what first john's about word and deed so Um, those are my original thoughts just listen to the one minute clip Sure, and I I you know I i'm reminded in her book of a story that she tells very early on.

22:42

I don't remember if it's in the Preface or the introduction or first chapter, but it's very early where she talks about a neighbor that she had who had a bulldog Hank hank yes, yeah who was lost and she said she never was able to break the Ice with this guy until the dog got lost and then You know after I think it was five days of the dog being gone The daughter was praying for the dog and they were helping hank put out flyers and things and finally the dog gets back and then They developed this friendship where hank comes into their home and becomes their friend and and and even though not a believer They have loved him in a way that is Very meaningful, right? It made me think about my neighbors.

23:24

Uh, we have uh neighbors That live right across the street from us, uh adam and raven who are uh, just we got a new dog at christmas time cupcake and when cupcake The first moment we brought her home My daughter's so excited to see her.

23:43

She ran she got off the leash ran four hours on christmas eve I'm certain running walking through the neighborhood cupcake And when you see a guy like me walking Yelling a food item the neighborhood yelling for pastries you think people just thought how fat are you? No, no, no, no, it was uh It was it was bad, but adam and raven helped me and that really it was an endearing moment because raven like held on to the dog and and and um Adam or actually she fed him some Some some food to get him to her And then adam held on to the dog so I could come over and put the leash back on and then I carried From adam's house and he walked with me so she wouldn't get away So there was a very endearing moment there when we haven't been super close.

24:33

They're great neighbors, but we just haven't been super close but that was certainly a Something that they did on their side for me That I sort of connected with in the book of saying, okay, there's something that you know, we're not super close But we are neighbors and we're going to be good neighbors to one another You know, we have brian who's a great neighbor and the boyds who are great neighbors so we're surrounded by people that are very sweet and kind to us and and and um, But but that sort of reminded me of that moment From the book.

25:01

So so in that I guess my only thing that I would take from the video that I might have a slight difference on and I want to get your thoughts on this is um The Phyloxenia the the idea and again, uh xenos is you know, it does mean outsiders it means, um, you know Where we might you know think about the idea of aliens people who are from the outside not from the inside um and philos is love the love of outsiders or strangers Um, I do get what she's saying and she's saying that's not fellowship But i'm not sure that i'm not sure also that hospitality Um doesn't include some aspects of fellowship Because there is a sense in which even people that I have been friends with for years that They don't live in my house And therefore when I when I have to have them in my home once they have to I mean I enjoy it Right rich when I gotta have you over You know, I mean, you know when when I have you over you're you know, I I tend to There is a feeling of difference, you know, because you're you're hosting you're you're you're being hospitable and I think maybe uh, maybe she and I might have a little difference of saying because if they're you know, If there are christians in my church Who are who are saying, you know, I I I feel like I feel like I am being hospitable by having other believers in my home.

26:30

I I I wouldn't say they're wrong I would simply say perhaps um, you know, maybe not going as far as someone like butterfield would go and she I mean we're talking a minute about some of the Radical ways that she has been hospitable in um, like something i'll get you to talk to this something You you mentioned to me.

26:51

She said if you come into my house and you see That's right.

26:56

That's what I was fixing to go is I think that's where she she differentiates fellowship with hospitality because If I remember correctly I might be wrong but I think if Fellow believers from her church or whatever come to her house And she's in the middle of a math lesson with her kids And they're coming over for dinner or what have you but they see that she's got laundry that hasn't been put up Or the dishes need to be put in the dishwasher She they now become the host and she's the guest and even in her own home and they do they That's part of the fellowship of believers you do for other people if you see a need meet it And I don't think she's expecting What she would consider stranger the unbeliever to do that.

27:36

Okay, so I think that's how she differentiates fellowship from Hospitality when it's the unbeliever the stranger You're taking care of their every need as well as Giving them the gospel as opposed to fellowship.

27:50

They are you're supposed to help one another You know loving one another means you come to my house.

27:55

You see a need you just go ahead and meet You don't ask me you just do it sure And so I think that's how she differentiates that yeah and jennifer and I talked a little bit about that on our Program a couple weeks ago when we talked about how to love people, especially need right? You see somebody need you fill the need so so I definitely yeah, like I said, i'm not i'm not i'm not wholesale disagreeing I do think that we would all do better At loving people that we don't know because what people tend to do And this is I think a bigger issue than we realize people tend to only have people in their homes that they are Utterly comfortable with and that they utterly share bonds with and there is a missing link of Because there's people in your own church.

28:35

I can I can imagine your church is I think a little bigger than ours, right? But um, There's people in our own church that are somewhat strangers right And unfortunately, yeah, yeah, I I mean it just is it is what it is, right? I mean we have people in our church that are That that you know, I I try not as a pastor of the church I try to have everyone in my home, but I do know there's a few families who I have not yet had in my home And you know, i've tried to remedy that it's a little tough sometimes with scheduling some people just don't like to do that but oftentimes what you see is what develops in the church are Friendships and and and you know, a lot of people use the word clicks.

29:15

I don't I don't because clicks tend to have a negative Right connotation I I'm I'm saying more like Genuine people of friendship.

29:23

I like to see friendships develop.

29:25

I like to see The thing I don't like to see is when those friendships create an atmosphere of us versus them, right? Like this is my this is my group and that's that group and that's what clicks would be right.

29:36

That's not good.

29:37

But um, But when I see people that are used to being in each other's house that are that are willing like you just said, you know Hey, man, I come in.

29:44

I see your clothes need to be put up on put up your clothes Whatever that is a level of intimacy That is great to see right.

29:52

That's a blessing to see Well, I think what happens in church is people kind of gravitate toward their own age groups.

29:58

I would put it that way Yeah, you know the 30 somethings hang out with the 30 something you got common bonds And that's what kids and you're in that stage of life and I think that's what's That's the biblical principle that's missed And she talks about this too I think she brings up titus the older women should teach the younger how to love their husbands and love their family and And raise a family and all those things um And the older men are to teach the younger men But we have this age disconnect in church where the younger and the older aren't really spending any time together And that's what's being missed is that level of fellowship you kind of gravitate toward people you're in commonality with And that bleeds over into who you have in your home And I mean i'm guilty of it.

30:39

Many people are guilty of it Sure, and it's just one of those things reading this book that'll open your eyes to okay Maybe I need to repent of a few things.

30:47

I'm kind of Not shunning purposely.

30:50

Yeah, but it's just I need to expand outside my comfort zone a little bit.

30:54

I think it's where she She goes there's a lot of value in having Older people in your life and oh, yeah people I you know, I said on a on a recent program I don't remember who I had on but I was talking about everybody needs a um Everybody needs a paul.

31:08

Everybody needs a barnabas.

31:09

Everybody needs a timothy meaning someone who is Discipling you someone that you're doing life with your barnabas your your your partner You know and then somebody that you're discipling somebody that sort of and when I say under you I don't mean in a sense of importance, but somebody that you're you're you're there you're the mature one, right? And so somebody that's more mature somebody that's less mature and somebody that's sort of in the same stage of life And I think oftentimes we only want that middle.

31:34

We only want the people that are like us, right? And I could see her definition in that way You know not just strangers that are off the street which people off the street are important to people neighbors are important too But even within the church there being people that we're strangers to because they're in a different age group just like you just said Um, but but you know, I think we probably all need an older friend And a younger friend in the same way that we need a paul or timothy, you know I i'm so grateful for some of the men in our church.

32:06

Mr.

32:06

Jack bunning.

32:07

Mr.

32:07

Paul turner um you know, mr.

32:10

Jim allen, these are men who Uh, you know oftentimes.

32:13

Hey when we're going to breakfast again because they enjoy Getting together with me and I enjoy getting together with them, right and just being together being men But men who are twice my age some more, you know, jack bunning is 86.

32:25

I think years old, right still spry still healthier Yeah But uh, but at the same time though, that's kind of what one of the ways that this could be applied Right, and that's one of the things I'll In our church, you know sunday school classes tend to be age specific uh, and we have those I mean if that's what you want in our church you have those opportunities to be within your age group, but The the class of me and johnny teach is just called the berean bible class and we got from My age and a little younger up to 80 plus years old All together and I think that's a beautiful thing because when you're teaching a sunday school class and you open it up discussion You know, they're saying there's wisdom in the room That can speak to things from experience that I haven't experienced yet And others in the class that are my age or a little bit older haven't experienced yet That is valuable beyond belief.

33:21

Sure.

33:21

So it's it And having johnny who's 66 and i'm 42 We're co-teaching together.

33:28

I was gonna say that that is basically right That's what I was just talking about you and johnny are in that in that stage, right? And there's many times i'm we're going through text description.

33:37

It's my turn to teach and I call him And this this is a man who? Pastored a church at one point.

33:44

He's got 20 extra years experience on me Yeah, and he can bring to the table.

33:49

What did you consider this you consider this? No, I didn't and that's that's perfect so um, and we may have gotten off the off track a little bit, but uh Yes, there is there's definite value in those who are Strangers within your own congregation.

34:05

Yeah, getting more close and intimate with them is vitally important for the health of the church.

34:10

Absolutely She tends to focus though on things like her neighborhood.

34:14

She talks about the neighborhood app that she has on her phone Well, she's got a she's got an ability and a lot of people don't I think if I remember right? She said there's 300 homes In her neighborhood and a lot of them are on this app.

34:26

Yeah Well, that's a lot if you're all on the app and they're all posting Well, this person have a surgeon this person needs this the person had a baby.

34:32

It's easy.

34:33

I won't say it's easy, but you have Multiple opportunities and she makes mention in the book.

34:39

She sacrificed career To be a stay-at-home mom so she could do this Yeah, that's one of the I mean so That's one of the positive one of the things i'll say about this book.

34:49

She's committed to the premise 100 wholeheartedly.

34:53

Yeah, so but she has she had she saw an opportunity And jumped on it because it's so many people in this neighborhood.

35:00

Oh, yeah.

35:01

So yeah, the app is interesting I I mean i've i've thought about it for our little cul-de-sac, you know I wonder if it would work because there are times where like our dirt road is so so messed up You know a couple of us guys might need to get out there and do stuff and maybe there's a way to connect With neighbors, you know to help each other right and and like I said the day I lost my dog Would be nice to be able to hop on the app and say hey if anybody sees a crazy labradoodle She's not she's not homeless.

35:28

She's just uh crazy Uh, but yeah, I mean, you know, I I can see that and again I think it I think the the one takeaway I would say from that positive takeaway Is here's a creative way that she found to reach her neighbors and to love them um without Strings attached just to connect now I will take a step back because I want to I want to pair it a little bit of uh, of One of the things that years ago was a light bulb moment for me when uh, and I think it was I know tony miyano was one person who said it ray comfort has said it.

36:07

Um, And that is this idea that um, we should engage in friendship evangelism.

36:12

And I know this may be a little bit outside of Kind of again outside of the book, but but I'm I want to I want to mention this you can get your thoughts Friendship evangelism is the idea is that you win people to christ by being their friends But you don't really share the gospel with them.

36:28

You just share them You just sort of be kind to them and over time they will somehow some way Like you enough to fall in love with jesus And and I mean have you heard that have you heard people that kind of um I haven't heard it called friendship evangelism, but I think there's a quote out there that says something to the effect of um Spread the gospel and sometimes use words your life well You demonstrate in christ your life will cause people to want to know why you're different and then that opens up an opportunity for you to to witness um The problem is don't happen Well, the problem is is romans is very clear faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of christ You've got to speak.

37:10

Yeah, you know there your life is not going to tell them you're a sinner standing under the wrath and judgment of god and if you don't repent and place your faith in christ who is You know, that's it's just it's not gonna happen.

37:22

So I don't now I will say using the term friendship evangelism There is an element in which I will I will Nuance it there's nothing wrong with getting Close and acquainted with someone who's not a believer developing a friendship To the point that they now trust you Enough that you can speak into their life The gospel and they're more apt to listen because you're not just somebody that just approached them on the street Yeah, there's there's open air evangelism and that's great.

37:59

But you've never met this person.

38:00

They don't know you from adam and They give hill means what you got to say As opposed to you could bend someone's ear a little bit more and get a little bit deeper with them If there's a relationship So I can I would take that approach over this just be their friend and you know demonstrate christ to them and hopefully they'll Want jesus because you got jesus.

38:21

Yeah.

38:21

No romans 3 romans 10 that speaks contrary to all of that.

38:25

Yeah.

38:26

Um I mean because something similar happened to me.

38:29

I won't use the lady's name But she's one of my managers at my dollar general and she listens to know what i'm talking about You know, she didn't know I was a christian, but we cut up all the time and had a good time and then Uh, our friend requested her on facebook And she was when I told you the first thing she said was she messaged me Are you a pastor because all the videos of us doing sunday school and that open opportunity for me to give her uh Some youtube sermons and things from our church and she's been watching them and who knows what happens after that but the She said she listened to my one of the sermons I did on jobe And she actually said well she listened more intently because she knew me As opposed as if I just sent her a video of you that she's never seen before.

39:10

Sure.

39:11

She might tune out.

39:12

You mean this face? I'd send her to sermon audio.

39:16

So she would have a look at I have a glorious beard So no, but well here's what and I don't remember if it was comfort or miyano But it was one of the one of them and I think they would both agree So i'm, you know doesn't really matter who i'm quoting but they said here's what often happens And and certainly different than what you just described Is people will say well, you know I have a neighbor and before I can share christ with them I have to become their friend and I have to gain their trust and I have to develop a relationship And then they become their friend they gain their trust to develop the relationship and then they say well I can't share christ with them because now i'm going to offend them Because we're too good of friends, right? The hardest people to share the gospel with are your friends.

39:53

And so you sort of Do a run around evangelism by by by making friends and again I know this has sort of gotten away from what we were originally talking about but You know that I think the purpose and I do think we're addressing Butterfield's thought is is part of the purpose of of loving people is being christ to them and presenting to them the love of christ so as Because they deserve to be loved because they're made in the image of god because they're human beings with inherent dignity But also because we want them to know the christ that we know so that they can know eternal life.

40:28

I mean there there's Not not to make people like us well, that's what she does if Because it's later in the it might not be in the very early chapters But later in the chat later in the book one of the things she does is it's not like she's just inviting people over They're just having tea And they're just talking about the day or whatever.

40:45

She she does.

40:46

I gotta say I don't mean to interrupt you, right? That is another thing The difference between hospitality and this a lot of people when they christians especially well I'm gonna invite people over and that's all they do They have tea or they right, you know the play scrabble or something But they don't they don't address they don't talk about christ.

41:05

That's where i'm going.

41:06

Yeah, okay is When she has them over once she's made a full-on meal They break bread together Her husband gives some kind of devotion or mini sermon.

41:17

They sing psalters So not only are they and it's believer and she has people from the church and unbelievers from the neighborhood everybody come over She invites 300 people 30 40 usually show up, but it's a mixed bag So these unbelievers come in And they keep coming back Maybe for the food, but they're exposed to singing songs in worship praying And a small sermonette or something that kent her husband will do but they're exposed to the gospel and exposed to This is christian life.

41:50

Yeah, so it's not like they're just having tea and they go home they see a demonstration of worship before them and that As far as we're going to call friendship evangelism, you're writing these people over you're becoming close to them and they may be unbelievers, but they're also seeing i'm more than just I adhere to the lordship of christ I would say I would say that that is I mean you're pointing people to christ.

42:13

They know that They know the the the motivation right now, maybe that's the wrong word, but they they know why they're there and what you're doing You're not hiding jesus And you're not trying to sneak him in as a prize to becoming my friend.

42:28

Hey, if you become my friend Yeah, you you get a free bag of jesus.

42:31

Let me pull out.

42:31

That's my back pocket and give it to you.

42:33

Right exactly um, and that one of the things again getting back to What was helpful for me and I know I know miyano said this he said Anytime I am first introducing myself to someone My neighborhood new new neighbor moves in whatever he said my wife and I might make make a thing of cookies and take to their House or whatever.

42:51

He said I always make sure to introduce myself.

42:54

I'm i'm i'm tony And I i'm i'm a christian and I and I go to this church or whatever and it's a way to sort of Let off the bat say, you know, I I you know, I I have something that's that identifies me That's more important than where I work more important than you know Where I live it's all these things and it's christ.

43:12

And so I I that's an interesting You know the way that he the way that he has made that, you know, and again, he's not saying i'm a christian I'm here to do but but you know, I I want you know, I go to this church or whatever and it for me I always tell people I I sort of have a a little bit of a It's not not a I don't know the right word i'm looking for it's not it's it's it's not a trick because it's not a trick But I do have I I am a pastor So that allows me Hey, my name's keith foskey.

43:43

Nice to see you.

43:43

Nice to meet you.

43:44

I want you know, i'm a pastor sovereign grace family church Therefore it's an automatic end for me Right.

43:50

Hey, do you guys go to church anywhere or whatever and and there I mean you're already in a and they know what i'm about right well, that's what I think tony's doing is he's like you said Part of the problem is with the friendship evangelism approach is you become their friend But now you can't witness because you don't want to offend them.

44:06

Yeah.

44:06

Well if you put it out there up front Hey, i'm a christian.

44:09

I go to this church there.

44:10

There's an expectation They already know and what i've learned too is people that i've met Uh for the first time and i've known them for a couple of weeks and They uh, they use salty language and they talk certain ways around me and all that stuff then when they find i'm a christian The language changes their demeanor.

44:31

They they're respectful of the fact that I don't want to hear all that garbage Yeah, and then again it opens doors to you.

44:37

Yeah, people people would say, you know, people lose someone Hey, can you pray for me? I'm hurting or whatever I mean, I get messages sometimes from people that I don't know very well, but i'm the only christian they know Right because i'm the only person that's ever been that's engaged them with the gospel or whatever and and when the moment comes they want they they don't want to talk to Somebody who doesn't know anything.

45:00

I want to talk somebody knows something and that's the whole purpose behind her book If you go back to hank Hank ended up getting arrested For running a meth lab that nobody knew he was running and about the only friends he had in the neighborhood were Rosario and her husband kent and They were the only christians he knew And after he was arrested and went to prison It was in prison That he comes to faith in christ.

45:28

Yeah, and the only church he has Is kent and rosario and the ministry they give to him from outside Yeah, so if he ever gets out he has somewhere to go That's the whole truck.

45:41

That's where she trusts the sovereignty of god the whole thing.

45:44

She didn't know where this was going Nobody else in the neighborhood would befriend him.

45:47

Yeah, nobody else in the neighborhood wanted anything to do with him they did and even though he was He wasn't mean to them But he wanted anything to do with their god But he loved hanging out with her kids and going and hunting salamanders and playing with a dog and all that kind of stuff when it hit the bottom He turned to them and they pointed him back to christ and now in the toughest time of his life and one of the things she said in the book was it's very difficult for hank right now because The god that he now serves is holding the bars up in front of him He's having to suffer the consequences of his actions and he's there under god's providence and he understands that And he's looking to them and they're encouraging him because now we're body we're fellow believers in christ Yeah, so it goes back to what you just said People reach out to you because you're only christian.

46:36

They know yeah They were the only ones That had the answer that he was looking for.

46:43

Yeah, so and they had they never engaged with him He would be completely and utterly in despair and hopeless and a lot of people wouldn't engage with him Because from the if you read the book, he's not pleasant He's not the type of person, you know, he's got this dog.

47:00

He's just him and his dog He's reclusive, right? And yeah and come to find out he was a Drug dealer or drug maker, right? And and like she said it would have been easy for them when they found out about him To write him off to become very much like the pharisee.

47:18

Oh, i'm glad i'm not like him You know the pharisee and the tax collector and thank god i'm not like other men, right? Um, but instead they continued to love him now that that is an amazing Uh testimony.

47:31

Mm-hmm, you know because like she said, you know His meth lab could have blown up could have killed all of them could have hurt their kids, you know And we get very protective over our homes and I think there's a sense in which that's Right.

47:43

Yes.

47:44

I you know, most people know I teach personal protection.

47:47

Uh, um recently had a really Interesting encounter on twitter with a guy who was arguing that all forms of personal protection were basically sinful and yeah, I mean it was it was it was not a uh, it was not good because I you know, I asked him if If uh, if someone was trying to kill his wife, would he be willing to defend his wife? Uh, and and he he he not to the point of killing another person he said and I said well, I I disagree I would I would to save my wife's life.

48:17

I would be willing to uh, well to to To stop someone by any means necessary if somebody was trying to hurt her because I believe that's my job to protect, right? So when we come to the subject of protecting ourselves, and this is maybe some of the issues maybe we can move now or transition into talking about some of the areas of the book that we that we Would have a little issue with right, but I don't want to I know you made a whole set of notes I don't want to jump too far too fast We've covered some of it like, you know, the positives and you're being fully committed to her premise She's not trying to teach.

48:50

She's not saying something.

48:51

She ain't willing to do.

48:51

Yeah, because she does it.

48:54

Yeah, um Uh, it's heavily christ-focused.

48:57

I mean she backs everything up with scripture um Whether or not I agree with every interpretation she takes That's questionable.

49:06

But either way She's come to her conclusions based on what she believes scripture to be teaching her That's her conviction.

49:12

So that's good.

49:13

Um And another positive not everybody can do it to the extent she's doing it but Nor may they might want to you know But there is much at least in the video.

49:24

She acknowledged that that's the case, right? She said everybody's different.

49:27

I'm not saying She's at least again repeating the video She said i'm not saying everybody has to do it the way we're doing it But you should be doing something you should be you should be hospitable because that's the command There's a lot you can glean from this book Yeah that you can use ideas practical things right in your Own life and then mold it.

49:44

However, you want to use it.

49:46

Yeah um, so that's why i'd recommend the book sure 100% read the book if nothing but ideas and Encouraging stories the story about her mom, which i've told you.

49:54

Oh my gosh the story about yeah And I don't want to ruin it for anybody who wants to read it But there's a story of her mom and and and her being in a nursing home and toward the end of her life It was I mean, it's tears Portions very emotional chapter because she gives the background leading all the way up to it.

50:12

Yeah, and it's amazing What god does right? Yeah, so so there there's a lot of encouraging stuff a lot of stuff that you could take away a lot of good, um, a lot of good in it, so right so I think both of us would say You haven't read it.

50:26

I read it crossway.

50:28

This is an advertisement um, so but So you're okay with moving on to some of the yes, that's fine because that we we cover most of the positive conversation anyway So, okay well some of the some of the areas and and we'll jump right back to what I was saying before some of the areas that would Take some issue with uh, one would be the issue of uh, personal protection because she sort of she sort of Takes it as well, you know By opening herself up.

50:58

She is opening herself up to a lot of danger And she has recognized because she's dealt with that She's been robbed and she took that as an opportunity, which I like what she did I mean she took it as a positive and and you know allowed people to come into her home and love on her and everything and that was that was good and Used it as a gospel opportunity, which again if you do struggle through uh, uh, a painful ordeal Then using it as a gospel opportunity is great I mean, um, you know, this is something my wife and I have talked about recently Something we've recently gone through and and she wants to be able to turn that around to a gospel Proclamation, right, you know because it's a if you go through difficulty and god gets you through it You can use that to help other people, right? And so so all that's good but one part of the book she has um A person come and live with her for a while college student, right college student And I had mentioned to you pre-show Uh, actually a couple days ago that that I that there were some parts of that that I I I was a little concerned about because One of the things that my dad And I know this isn't scripture, but sometimes the wisdom of the ages, you know You know, and we do we do get things from our parents, right? One of the things that my dad was always very um Very strict about Was you know, we we could have sleepovers and stuff and that was fine But having people come to live with us Was always something that he was that he was never for and his reasoning was uh, the the When you put multiple families in a home you you it almost always breeds some form of of contempt eventually which which um can can Create a problem with the sanctity of the home a problem with the The problem with the safety of the home and um, again somebody said well this isn't biblical you're not giving no But I am talking about something that Has sort of been ingrained in me because I saw it on both sides.

53:01

My grandmother was the other way my grandmother's Uh, she she she always had someone living with her Right, and she always had drama her her life was filled with um things being you know things being stolen and and and and people being injured and and and Even sometimes, you know going to situations of abuse, right, which I I don't want to get into all of that but there were things that um That that I mean are now looking back were uh Protections that maybe should have been in place right that weren't And because of that there there there are now scars really deep seated scars Because those protections weren't in place and again coming from the personal protection Training that i've had coming from that mindset that I had, you know, um I and again not to get too much into my own story But just thinking of the things that I saw growing up and things that I saw on both sides of my family I I I I tend to understand my dad's thought about not bringing Not bringing in people to live now somebody needs a place to stay I mean my my step sister uh, uh, she lived with us For like six months while our house was being built her and her husband and they had a bunch of kids It's ron and jerry and and and they're four And but they lived in our camper which was on our property and that was fine.

54:29

We got along fine We knew we knew there was an end game, right? And that kind of goes along with the story that she told about the college student.

54:35

They knew there was an end game Yeah, it was a month.

54:37

Yeah, she needed a month and so As I said, i'm not necessarily disagreeing if we can open up our home somebody make it work as long as there's safety And so, you know, there's not an opportunity for things like, you know, mistrust or abuse or things like that I I think family protection has to be considered and that's the part that I would Maybe disagree slightly because it seems like she says well god is sovereign and therefore You know, you just sort of take your licks and I and I don't mean to simplify her situation or her, right? Well, I don't there's there's You got to have some discernment obviously, um Me and my wife are talking about this uh crystal Has entertained the idea of one day maybe want to adopt.

55:19

Okay, if we could ever afford to do that because adoption ain't cheap um But okay Rosario they adopt teenagers Okay, one of them was a teenage boy 17 years old Um Would it be wise and we just raised a question would it be wise for us to adopt a 17 year old boy when I have A 16 year old very beautiful daughter living in the home May not be very smart because we don't know anything about this kid Dangerous, he may come from a dangerous background and Anything could happen and and you're not Uh in any way calling Him into question or even your daughter into question as well as integrity, but things happen, right temptations happen And this isn't like a brother and sister living in the same house, right? You're you're you're potentially opening up the opportunity for a a misstep of pretty wide proportion, correct? And and you as the father have to consider that as your you know Your three p's right your pastor your provider, but you're also protector of the home and and and so i'm glad you brought that up But yeah that because that's just so in a situation where I was willing to look to adopt Well, we don't need to adopt a teenager but We could adopt a five six year old boy, and that'd be no problem because he's they're they're young.

56:40

Yeah, but and they become part You know, we adopted Or ashley and cody before we had other kids, right and we adopted them They were four and six years old and they and now it's it's as if I mean Nothing, I mean there are children right and they were from the moment we got them But what I mean is over time it's like that it's like nobody even would know right there are kids And so yeah, but but there is that yeah right away and there's there's that and then there's I mean It's just you have to be cognizant of your situation um and go into the contention element Uh, it may have reminded me and i'll leave their names out of it.

57:17

But before me and chrystal had children You know, we're in your house when we first bought it and uh We had two extra bedrooms and a friend of mine and his wife who had one kid were Uh, and the kid was very small um Fixed to be evicted Had nowhere to go.

57:36

Yeah, so we brought them in We were wary about it, but we let them move in with us Now the end game was they're gonna save us money and get out.

57:43

They weren't gonna stay there forever, but contention element This lady decided this woman decided to rearrange my wife's kitchen not once but twice now That's that's that's overstep Overstepping your bounds there You did it once my wife put it back and then while we at work you would have she did it again And then we had to say something But listen lady I just have to do this That's it that's one of them crazy things like no darling that's that's not gonna fly so, um But that's that's and someone might say well that's such a small thing.

58:23

Yeah, but that's her domain right, I I'm, uh, you know, I There's a book by martha piece.

58:29

Uh called.

58:31

Um uh, the exemplary wife, no the the Exemplary wife and it's the exemplary husband because that's the there's the husband by stewart scott Right and then the wife book is um, this might be something for us to do on a show or maybe i'm going through it Maybe jennifer and I could do it one day but but the extraordinary wife extraordinary wife, right? And she does talk about the the wife's domain being the home And when you end up with you know Multiple families in a home that can that can breed it has the possibility to breed contempt And that's what happened there now.

59:04

We got through it all now rosario's take on that is there's Judged by things she said in other situations There's always going to be the difficulties But in the difficulties you have the opportunity to shine christ And that's how that's she looks at every and that's what she said in the video you played every factor Yeah is how is this glorifying to god? How can I use this? And she's and she's one of those rare people.

59:31

I guess they can cognitively do that now in the book there were times where she Didn't and she's open with that.

59:40

Um, when there's something to do with a uh, A cat that they she was basically just giving pills to And the cat got lost and somebody brought their dogs in and she was sharp with them like get the dogs out of here It was a moment of just you know and another when hank's girlfriend That lived with her had approached her about something And she just read to bo and cigarettes and it was abrasive and she said can we talk about this next week and shunned her? And then they were arrested the next day.

01:00:07

Yeah, so and yes for spoilers i'm giving up in the book.

01:00:10

I'm, sorry But we're talking about.

01:00:11

Yeah, I mean it looks several years.

01:00:13

She felt She felt bad about doing that because she had an opportunity to work to work to do something with this lady and missed it because Of her flesh that's how she puts it.

01:00:24

So she's at least real in the fact that there are times when she fails Yeah, and misses those opportunities.

01:00:30

She's not perfect in it, but she tries to see every opportunity so that's why she takes the approach of Bring them in if it's difficult.

01:00:38

It's just going to be difficult.

01:00:39

Yeah fight the battle We're just going to do it.

01:00:40

We're just going to deal with it and we're going to Display christ doing it.

01:00:43

That's great If you're ready to do that and you've got the spiritual maturity to do that not everybody has it again This is discernment what? As far as hospitality goes, what are you capable of doing? And the other thing too is she mentions how her and kent take the marathon approach When you run a marathon and you're training for marathon you run in the same pace as a person that's slower than you whoever's slower You take their pace so if one of you is Further advanced as far as being able to handle this kind of stuff as opposed to the other one Then you work together and go at the pace of the one who ain't got there yet and rosario is actually the The slower of the two I guess you would put it and they work at her pace And that's an important thing.

01:01:26

Oh, yeah.

01:01:27

So if you want to if you want to have radical ordinary hospitality, she says it Well you what's radical to you? Yeah radical to her is all in 300 people in my house I'm cooking she cooks meals and communion bread every day and she's got the it's a dinner party every night It's a worship service every night at her house believer and unbeliever alike That's radical ordinary hospitality for her radical ordinary hospitality for someone who's who can't do that might be once a week Have somebody over And that's fine.

01:01:58

Yeah, that's fine.

01:01:59

It's Discernment and figuring out what's best for you and what's safe for you? There's an element which yes you have to put you have to be you have to have a safety factor any man's just open his home up to just anybody nonchalant and You know stuff falls where it may Like if I I met a homeless guy i'll try to put him in my hotel Before I bring him in my house.

01:02:21

Yeah, I don't know this guy and I got young children I'm not opening up my children to sexual abuse Because You know i'm trying to be hospitable And love the stranger well, I can love the stranger by paying for a motel room for a week Yeah, good samaritan did that's what i'm saying.

01:02:37

I mean, I don't have to love the stranger by bringing people I don't know into my home that could potentially be dangerous.

01:02:42

Yeah, there is an element which need to be discerning Yes, so as I said, I think you both we both would endorse The book certainly we think people should read it and glean ideas from it, but you and I both having read it Uh came away with some little red flags Uh, and maybe that's maybe that's too harsh a term little things that we would say.

01:03:02

Hey, here's Here's some concerns that we have About this issue about okay.

01:03:08

Yeah, I wouldn't call it red flags.

01:03:10

I'd call it her background influences her previous life prior to conversion still has some effect on Her worldview.

01:03:19

Yeah And if if I may I just want to kind of describe what we're talking about.

01:03:23

She talks in the book about How prior to becoming a christian she lived the lgbt lifestyle as a uh as a In a scholarly environment school environment and she said she basically lived that communal lifestyle prior to becoming a christian and that's what to me was almost And again, i'm going to use the word red flag because because here's the thing When someone says i'm a christian and this is what the bible teaches I i'm gonna agree Okay If they're right, but then it's the thing Well is is this but is she more influenced by what she did prior to becoming a christian and then she read that into the scripture And that was the part and again not calling her integrity into question not saying that she's not Genuine and not doing this for christ as you said she's saturated in the scripture but she was talking about how She had these sort of community communal groups and everybody lived together because in the lgbt community people are Outcasted at least they feel outcasted and they feel separated from The norms of society and I think this was 70s 80s.

01:04:35

She came out So this was a time when it was much different than today much different than today.

01:04:41

It was And you were pariahed if you were that way, right? Yeah, and so she she kind of is saying well, yeah, I mean um We had we had this level of communion in this Relationship before christ and now i'm in christ and I have this now for a different reason It's still sort of the same thing.

01:05:01

So it just seems like this is very much in line with her personality Well, I think she's taking what she knew And i'll give her some i'll give her um, I'll play devil's advocate a little bit here.

01:05:14

I won't say that She's entirely incorporated that worldview into her christian life, but she took what she was comfortable doing from the previous and transferred it to Her relationship with the saints.

01:05:29

Let's put it that way.

01:05:30

Does that make sense? Sure.

01:05:32

So And very graciously so they were they were they had a communal element.

01:05:36

They all helped each other out.

01:05:37

They were very together because they had to be because outside of that they were treated like pariah So now in the christian element, she's taking what she learned there and put it applied it toward the church to bring people in fellowship with believers and To be hospitalized toward unbelievers for the purpose of winning the christ.

01:05:58

So I think that's what she's doing there um I guess I would just say that the the radical nature because a lot of what she says to The rank and file average person is going to come across very radical Oh, yeah, and because it does it does have a stench For some people of of that sort of communistic, you know, everybody owns everybody else's everything Well, I don't think she quite does the everybody owns everybody else thing in her new context.

01:06:28

Yeah But yes in the in the previous that's kind of how as I said And please I hope nobody takes that as me taking a shot at her.

01:06:34

I'm just throwing out Thoughts, you know, these are things you're going to encounter in the book, correct? Yeah, and and the whole idea again you kick my camera i'm sorry i'm trying not to that's okay funny funny things happen, but the uh, But that's the kind of the thing right is is is as i'm listening to it i'm saying Okay, you did these things before you're doing them now and to me that that that doesn't call into question the integrity But it doesn't call into question the interpretive grid.

01:07:00

We all have we all have a hermeneutic We all have a grid that we sort of interpret through Some people some people interpret every bible verse through The the red white and blue the american flag.

01:07:11

Yep, and the the the you know, the the the the parchment of the of the constitution there's one guy I saw had um that verse if my people will Pray and turn from their sin and that's gonna turn america around.

01:07:26

Well, he had it highlighted in red white and blue The verse the top corner of the verse was blue and then it was red and white highlights down It was a american flag was highlighted in his bible like bro You have uh, you have a particular lens.

01:07:42

Yes through which you are viewing scripture through patriotism That's right.

01:07:45

And and so, you know, I think that her, you know, uh Her background Is yes is effective, but you had some other things on your list.

01:07:55

Let's look at what well, um, Of course her background.

01:07:58

She she makes very clear that she Her she grew up radically liberal Um brought up in feminism because that's what her mother brought her up in Um, her mother was married, but up until she was 22 her father her father died But that's how she was raised and some of that bleeds into Uh the book because there's some woke terminology she uses at times Um, particularly page one and that runs people off quick, right? And that's what I'm wanting people to know like page 111 She's uh talking about and I give you the context here Uh to be a way of escape for someone to live as a living epistle So you want to be that escape your house is an escape for someone else? Okay, kind of like a refugee because kind of like a refugee thing um so Uh, one of the things she does is that after lord's day worship She wants people to come to her house because maybe they need to escape, you know They're just you know, just one of those things so just to quote it My favorite day of the week is the lord's day and I want to share that day with others Kent and I open our home after worship to anyone who will come we must We remember what it's like to be a new christian to be single to have secrets to get you alone and torment you And you have no place to go after worship The odd tearing apart of the body of christ as each retreats to her own corner or click While the benediction still rings in the air It is an act of violence and cruelty to people in your church who routinely have no place to belong no place to need And be needed after worship worship leaves us full and raw and we need one another it's that phrase it's an act of violence To leave someone without a place to go This idea that after worship is over if I don't have people into my home That i'm committing acts of violence against them.

01:09:43

That's That's her old days coming forth and and there's another one on page 115 Before we talk about i'll just go ahead and put it out there She's talking about solving the big problem the big problem being the refugee crisis So she's all about she's Immigration and all that.

01:10:01

She thinks we should be bringing all the refugees in And she uses jesus.

01:10:05

She says jesus says I was hungry and you gave me food.

01:10:07

I was thirsty and you gave me drink I was a stranger and you welcomed me.

01:10:10

I was naked and you clothed me.

01:10:12

I was sick and you visited me I was in prison and you came to me.

01:10:15

That's matthew 25 When we feel entitled to god's grace either because of our family history or our decision making We can never get to the core sentiment behind jesus's words What would it take to see jesus as he betrays himself here to see ourselves? Is our lack of care for the refugee and the stranger an innocent lack of opportunity or is it a form of willful violence? again If we're not taking in refugees, are we committing violence against them? That's what yeah, this silence is violence Mentality has bled into her her christian viewpoints.

01:10:47

Sure So yeah, there's that part of so If you want to call it a red flag, there's that element of her background That is infused into her Into her way of life and how she views things she's viewing things through those lens and she may genuinely believe those things And I understand that doesn't mean That we agree with her that doesn't mean that we feel like that's the right language to use Right and that and that's what we're that's what we're pointing out is you know, we're not calling her integrity into question We're just no maybe it's her her interpretation, right? it's not if she wants to bring all these people into her home and have people over after church because and there's probably an element in which a new believer who's still dealing with former sins and struggling in ways or needs somewhere to go and someone to To lean on and opening their home may afford that opportunity to be in a way of escape for someone But saying that if you don't do that, it's an act of violence I'm, not committing violence against this person Especially if I don't know What's going on in their life at this particular point in time? um, yeah, there was a there was a pastor i'd read about once who who um, and maybe somebody on Social media will know who i'm talking about But I can't remember the which one it was, uh, but he said that after his sermon He would always go into his study and he would have a line of people outside the study Who wanted to talk to him and sometimes would spend hours? Going through these people who want to talk much bigger church probably in a situation where More people are in need and more people are wanting to stay but he said but but I remember just thinking You know, I I I hope our people feel comfortable enough that if they needed me After service that they know I would stay that I would be happy to Go into my study and sit with them as long as they need it, right? um that you know But like you said the idea that if you You know if I don't say okay everybody come to my house for you know Chicken and rice on sunday that if I don't do that every week that i've somehow committed violence against them, right? That's the that's a bit extreme, but yeah hearing it too far in my opinion um now I will say this one thing she does do and she makes mention of She has support from the church to help her do these things And she makes mention at beginning if you want to do it to this extent you know You're going to need support from your local body um So she's able to do this because she's got those In the background kind of helping finance some of this stuff.

01:13:19

Yeah, I believe uh, but And prepare it takes a while to prepare for she's up at four o'clock in the morning Doing her devotions and on by 5 30.

01:13:28

She's got a pot of soup going and needing the communion bread I mean, this is this is every day Yeah, you know that she's doing this because she's expecting between 20 and 300 people because that's just That when they do the what's next that what's the the um the next door app? They invite 300 people And sometimes 20 show up sometimes 75 show up But she's prepping for all of them the way she looks at it.

01:13:52

If nobody shows up.

01:13:53

I got food I can freeze Um But those are only real negatives I had as far as I was concerned, you know the the background influences and somewhat woke language somewhat woke language and and just the possible lack of discernment and just Anybody and everybody flowing in and out of your house? Yeah Um, you got to have you got to be somewhat careful and that's for each person to decide what they want to do Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that we could say is is you know Going back to the video we watched she made the point to say and i've said this already but i'll say it again This is going to look different for everybody And what's radical for me might not be radical for you and what's radical for you and me probably ain't gonna be nothing to her right, um But there are going to be some distinctions that are made on how god has wired each of us because we are wired differently, I mean i'm you know i'm i'm I I have a particular way that god Makes me interact and I think every church also is wired differently And this again, this is a broader topic for another thing another time another podcast maybe but I do think that there are certain churches that are um That that just do some things really well like bob utley I don't know if you're familiar with him bob utley is a bible teacher was Used to have a tv program really good bible teacher actually And um was a pastor of a I think he was in texas And one time in one of his sermons he said that he said he said if somebody asked me What's the best baptist church in town for and he named something? Because his he was a baptist church in this town and it was pretty big town He said if somebody said what's the best baptist church in town if you're wanting to do missions He said i'd tell you to go to first baptist on normandy or whatever He he said because they're the best mission-minded baptist church in town If he if you were to ask me what what's the best church for for youth ministry? I'd tell you to go to this baptist church And he says if you want to if you were asking me which church in town is the it would Gives the the most deep bible teachings.

01:15:54

I would say it's ours He said because that's where I focus and he does he's like I said, he was a scholar an old testament scholar And and so I think I think that's an honest thing to say Is that not all churches are going to be great at everything, right? And i'm sure her church is great at hospitality Right, you know and so, um, somebody asked me one time years ago, you know, what are Where where you know, what's our what's our focus here? You know, what what are we going to be good at? and and I thought there was a That's a meaningful and thoughtful question.

01:16:28

Yeah, and I said, um, I said I I said I want to be uh a teaching church That I want to teach the word of god.

01:16:38

I want I want to I want to make that the focus so we have the academy We you know podcasts all these are elements of arms of our teaching ministry.

01:16:45

This is something that we focus on I Produce material I give material out you want to teach But that doesn't mean we don't do the other things But we not we may not be as good at them as other churches and that's that's another side of it right is is is Every christian is going to be different and there are those who are going to be more radically hospitable And they're going to be some that are more radically good at other things right and and and so But uh, but you have a thought I can tell well No, I would just it brings me to the quote that stuck out the most as early in the book Is where she says the gospel comes in exchange for everything in the world you once loved Um, so what does it look like for you to be not of the world but in the world and to to uh To Display the gospel in word and indeed Um as much as possible with every opportunity you have within the way as you said god wired you.

01:17:47

Yeah and I think that's the point she's ultimately trying to make is Be the influence in the world that we're supposed to be One of the things she kept talking about when she was a kid And the family problems they had With all the craziness of her parents and her dad and all this stuff and you'll read it in the book if you read it Was were there christian neighbors around me? That could have helped but just didn't And that's influence on her.

01:18:15

She's wanting to be that christian neighbor that can help.

01:18:18

Yeah, and she's proven that she can be Because I mean just look at hank and amy sure These two girls these two people came to faith in christ after going to prison But I mean what does god have to do to some people put them in the bottom so It's being that influence in the world around you for the sake of christ and the And the glory of god and the building up of the kingdom How's that look for you and then go do it? I think it's her ultimate premise and for her.

01:18:47

It's radical radical ordinary hospitality But it gives her a million opportunities a day to do just that thing Yeah So there was one one funny thing in book that I wanted to mention because it just I laughed out loud when I heard it and then it's when people from the community were coming over and they're talking about hank being Arrested and all that stuff and their friendship with him was calling them into question and bill Bill was pacing in my kitchen and finishing up the last of the coffee from the morning Said to me I can't believe you could be friends with him.

01:19:18

You want to know the problem with you christians? No bill i'm thinking but i'm sure you're going to tell me anyway You christians are so open-minded your brains are falling out of your ears It takes god's grace to get your neighbor to polish off the last of the coffee and insult you in the same breath I cracked up at that one.

01:19:36

Um, so I just wanted to mention that because that was that was pretty funny It takes god's grace to have your neighbor polish off your coffee and insult you in the same Absolutely anyway, well, I think I actually think we called it a mini review, but I actually think we actually did a full Pretty good overview.

01:19:54

I mean we didn't talk about the chapters and different things But there's a lot a lot of good that is in the book A lot that you and I both would say get the book read the book and as the old baptist preacher said, you know Eat the meat They're out of bones.

01:20:07

That's right spit out the bones But there's a lot a lot of good meat in the book.

01:20:11

Yes good things for us to consider Well again, I want to thank you for being a part of the program, uh, brother rich Thank you for being here and uh audience members.

01:20:19

I want to thank you for being a part of the show as always I want to Remind you that this is going out via all the different social media platforms youtube facebook and all these different things So if you are watching this, I want to encourage you to please if you would Like and subscribe if you're watching on facebook, leave us a comment so that we know that you were there What do we say the comment was earlier that if they did i'd give them a shout out They have to uh, I don't know they got to answer the the trivia question Yeah, if you know that trivia question, which I don't remember what the question was but if you answer that trivia question, you'll get a shout out on a uh on a future episode Want to again remind you also that uh, you can follow me on twitter at at your calvinist You can find me you can find all of our videos at calvinistpodcast.com And if you have a question that you would like for us to address In a future episode and I have been getting more questions.

01:21:07

Some of them are kind of kind of heavy duty Uh, then you can send those to calvinistpodcast at gmail.com Thank you for listening to conversations with a calvinist.

01:21:17

My name is keith foskey and i've been your calvinist.