Special Dividing Line with Voddie Baucham, Shai Linne, and Ivey Conerly!

Greetings and welcome. My name is James White and I am a facilitator of a discussion today. We have three guests on the line. We tried to do the really fancy dancy video thing. That didn't work too well, so now we're using the old-fashioned phone line, but that's more important because, interestingly enough, it almost is related to our subject because even though we had all the looks before, we didn't have the sound and communication of meaningful words.

What Christian Rap Is and Where It Came From

I think that's actually going to be relevant to some of the topic of the subject of Christian rap today because I think one of the objections that probably older people have when they first hear Christian rap is, I don't understand what's being said.

I can't follow this. I'm not getting anything out of it. I have a feeling that some in the Reformed camp who would object to Christian rap probably have in the back of their mind that the key issue is participation of the congregation, communication of information, etc., etc.

On the other side, I have talked to a number of people. It's amazing how many people in our chat channel have come in and they have talked about how they listen to Shilin, they listen to Ivy Conner, they listen to these concept albums where they're listening to people communicating on topics like the hypostatic union, the trinity, the atonement, the concept of substitution, and they're tremendously excited about that.

Now, of course, the older people will say, well, there was all sorts of neat stuff about that in the Trinity Hymnal a hundred years ago. Why do we need to do it in a different way now? I think that's where a lot of the conversation needs to take place.

Over the Thanksgiving holidays, a controversy erupted due to a particular controversy. I sort of saw it from a distance. I thought, boy, I know some folks are going to be really interested in that particular conversation.

But then I heard from Ivy Connerly, and he said, you know, we'd really like to have a discussion about this. Could you facilitate it? And I'm like, well, when or how? And then Vodie Baucom called me. And once that happened, then I'm like, okay, let's make this work.

And they said, we'd like to be joined by Shilin. And so, those are our guests today on the program. Let me actually start off, not so much with the history of this, but recognizing that some people in the audience might not know what in the world we're talking about.

Shilin, could you tell us, how would you define Christian rap? And could you, for those of us who are not experts in these things, help us to understand what the difference, if there is a difference, what you would see to be the difference between Christian rap and spoken word?

Help us to understand what this movement's all about.

Anytime you talk about rap, you need to talk about, it would be the umbrella. There are different.

Elements to hip-hop. Hip-hop doesn't say a lot to me, other than, well, it has a lot of negative connotations, in my experience, obviously. I mean, I go down the road, and a guy pulls up next to me, and I'm concerned that my windows are going to shatter, because he is next to me.

And even though I have bock up as loud as I can on the local classical station, I hear enough four-letter words coming through my closed window that I'm brought back to my days in high school. So, for someone like me, what's the culture there?

Has this been around a long time? Is it a fairly new thing? Talk to me a little about that.

Yeah. So, it's the mid to late 70s in New York, and it has its roots in both pioneers, as you could say, earlier songs, and you would attribute it to the last poets. And basically, in the mid -70s, you had this youth culture, a lot of gang violence, and an alternative to gang violence.

So, you had people dying out in the streets, and people looking for an alternative to that. And so, they basically said, let's take this energy that we're using mega-violently against one another, and let's take it and try to channel it into something positive.

And so, that's the mid to late 70s. And then, 79, 1980, the first record started to be released. And then, many would credit the song Rapper's Delight by the Sugarhill Gang, kind of, rap's first foray into the mainstream.

Okay. So, real quickly then, Christian rap. I mean, was it there from the beginning, or is this a fairly new development? I mean, did rap pretty much start off completely secular, or was there always a Christian sub-element to it?

What's the story there?

Yeah. There's been a Christian sub-element to it for a long time. It goes before my time with it, but in the mid -80s, I believe, 84, 85 or so, there was a guy named Stephen Wiley who released a song called Bible Break, I believe, was the name of it.

And so, yeah. So, going back to the early 80s, there were already Christians involved in hip-hop culture. It's definitely, it's grown over the years, and there's been certain winds and turns in terms of, as far as emphasis is concerned.

But there has been a resurgence, and I would say, in the last 15 years of reform, so-called reformed rap guys who are using rap to, you know, reformation.

Why Each Guest Was Drawn to Reformed Rap

Okay. Now, this is for both Shilin and Ivy. When did you guys get involved, and what initially attracted you to want to seek to communicate a specifically reformed, biblical, deeply theological message by this means?

Well, for me, the kind of hip-hop that I grew up on was a particular kind of culture which really, in its secular form, was dedicated towards teaching. It was, in terms of what it was teaching, it was kind of Afro-centrism, positivity, upliftment of the Black community, kinds of things.

One famous secular rapper, he coined the phrase edutainment, had an album called Edutainment, and basically used it to lay out his philosophy of life. And so, before I was a Christian, I was already drawn to that kind of intellectual, you know, called it conscious hip-hop.

So, once I was converted to the Lord, I was in, I'm born and raised in Philadelphia, and in Philly, a community of Christ-centered, God-exalting, and so that was my natural cultural community in some senses.

And there's a group called the Cross Movement, who many would consider kind of doctrinal, hip-hop with a particular doctrinal emphasis, and they were in Philly, so I was connected to those guys. And for me, it was, you know, it was formed, and so I'm going to do reformed rap.

It was more, this is the language of my cultural background. I believe that Jesus deserves to be glorified in all things. Hip-hop falls under the umbrella of glory, and so it was with me. It was odd to magnify them.

So, the things that we were learning at the churches that we began to come out.

In this. How about you, Ivy? How long have you been involved?

I've been involved with Christian rap now for about seven years. But for us, rap in general, for about, wow, almost 17 years. So, I did secular rap or pagan rap for about 10 years, and whatnot. And what drew me to secular rap, of course, just being out here on the West Coast, Southern California, you know, it was the gangster rap was so appealing, the lifestyle.

And I grew up in a small city most of my life, Escondido, California, in San Diego. And there's a lot of Hispanics there, but there was also a lot of blacks moving from different parts of Southern California, and, you know, gang members and whatnot.

And that's how I got involved with, you know, with that crowd. But I was just really looking up to those guys. It was like, it was the manly thing to do. At the time, it was a lot of confusion in my life, as far as, you know, my mother, my father kind of split up.

So, I was looking for some guidance, and these were the cool guys. These are the guys to look up to. So, I got involved with the pagan music through that avenue. And when I moved from there, to Syracuse, and then from Syracuse to Jacksonville, Florida, where God saved me, as my life changed, the music changed.

And I was able to articulate the truth of Scripture and song. And I actually was seeking the Lord in Scripture, and also through other men that were seasoned in the Word of God, to see if this was still something appropriate to do.

And through much study and research and praying, I saw that I was able to freely worship God in the form of rap. And, you know, that's one thing I kind of want to get into a little bit without getting off subject is, of course, in the black community, for the most part, when we think of praise and worship, we always think of music.

And it wasn't until, of course, I got Reformed, or sound, and doctrine, when I realized that worship is a lifestyle, you know. So, you know, my lifestyle as a pagan, that's what it reflects, it reflects sin.

And that's what I rapped about. I rapped about what I was doing and all that. So, when I became a Christian, when I was regenerated, I started understanding that more and more that this is a lifestyle.

So, I'm writing about a lifestyle. So, due to worship is what, you know, I mean, I'm not much of a singer. So, due to my worship in life, you know, I can express how I feel what's in my heart and the gift that God has given me, even though it was used, you know, for bad in the world.

Thank God that since I've been redeemed, you know, my expression of joy from the way I live and what not, by the power of the Holy Spirit, comes out of my music. So...

And I know we tried to address this earlier, but now let's do it again now that we have everybody on board. A video...

So, you don't want to know about my history with rap?

Okay. If you've got one to share, I missed that when I was at the church recently. But.

Yeah, I'd love to hear that. Well, I grew up in Los Angeles. I was born in 69. So, when rap was being birthed, I was coming of age in that era. And so, I did rap. I was part of hip hop culture. That was...

What? That was what I was based in. So, I mean, if you started Rapper's Delight right now, I could help finish it. But again, the whole idea of the East Coast versus West Coast rap and all that sort of stuff, I did all of that.

But it's not something that I continued in. I've always been much more eclectic. But, you know, I was very much a part of that culture. I wrote rhymes, you know, the whole nine yards. So, I don't come at this as someone who's just an outside observer, but as someone who watched this grow up, who was part of this when it grew up, and who had it all around me, and even in my own experience at that time.

Okay, then when did you become aware of specifically reformed rap? And what was your initial reaction to that?

Probably about somewhere in the last 10 years. I was doing an event in Memphis, and one of the organizers of the event said, Hey man, there's this guy who wants to meet you. You've really influenced him a lot.

And, you know, I'd just really love for you to speak into his life. And it was Lecrae, who is one of, if not the most popular of the Christian rappers. And, you know, we spent time together. And, you know, over the years, we've had a number of, you know, contact with one another.

But that really was my sort of introduction to the rap scene, the Christian rap scene, you know, as we know it now. I had no idea. I mean, I had absolutely no idea how big it was. I had no idea how influential it was, how diverse it was.

I just didn't know. Because even though I grew up in that environment, I'm not a rap guy. You know, Ivy asked me to be interviewed on a recent project that just came out. And when he called me about it, I immediately told him, I said, Ivy, you know, I'm not a rap guy, right?

And he said, Yeah, I know that. But, you know, I can respect, you know, who guys are, where they come from, and the things that they desire to do, even if they're not things that fit or suit me. And even if I don't believe that they would be appropriate for Christian worship.

That's a subject that we would need to address before we finish this up. But we need to let folks know what has precipitated this particular conversation. I suppose, in fairness to everybody else who's now given their background and stuff like that, I'm a Keith Green guy.

Okay? All right. I mean, seriously, I suppose I should mention that, you know, my parents probably didn't really have any understanding of why I really, really enjoyed the music of Keith Green. I mean, I listened to Keith Green when Keith Green was a lot.

I remember the night he died. I was actually a disc jockey on a radio station, and I got the UPI wire, and, you know, Keith Green airplane crash, so on and so forth. I still have it. But that was a different, I mean, I grew up with George Beverly Shea.

All right? And I'm not sure if any of you guys even know who George Beverly Shea is. Absolutely. You bet. That's what I grew up with. And if it wasn't Christian music, I went to sleep many nights with my parents listening to Nat King Cole in the other room, going to sleep to Red Sails and The Sunset.

Okay? So that's the musical genre. And then I grew up as a radio announcer in high school playing Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey, Frank Sinatra, all that kind of stuff. So musical, I have a wide variety of stuff that I like to listen to.

But obviously, the issue is how does that interface with the subject of the church? And I guess that's where all this came from, because, Votie, if you could tell us a little bit about this group that had gotten together, and they were talking about the regulative principle of worship.

This brief clip sort of went viral very, very quickly. Very, very briefly, who is involved, and what were they talking about? What brought all this about?

The NCFIC Panel and the Backlash Over Reformed Rap

Well, the host organization was an organization called the National Synod for Family Integrated Churches, NCFIC. There were people speaking who were part of NCFIC and people who were speaking who weren't.

Some of the guys on the panel were NCFIC guys, some of the guys on the panel were not. There were 40 messages, I believe, at the conference, and not one of them dealt with hip-hop or rap. During the panel Q &A, there was a question from the audience about reform rappers.

The question was asked, and the panelists, I believe there were six of them, proceeded to give their opinion on this issue of reformed rap, and it just proceeded from bad to.

Worse. So it was a nightmare. Well, basically they all said it is completely unacceptable in.

Worship, right? Yes. One gentleman said that individuals in this, again the most famous comment, are disobedient cowards. One called rap the death rattle in the throat of a dying culture. Again, there were just statements upon statements upon statements.

And again, guys have come out, as you said earlier, offering apologies for what they said, reaching out, trying to create dialogue, asking for forgiveness, and so on and so forth, and that's wonderful.

But what struck me about it, again, first of all, these are individuals who I know, not all of them, but about half of the guys I know, but what struck me about it was the response, the type of response, the level of response, and the scope of the response, that people who have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with hip-hop culture or rap, who have extremely high-profile positions in broader evangelical world, felt the need to chime in on this and condemn this.

And again, it was condemnable. I immediately got on the phone and started calling guys, the ones whom I knew about this, and just saying, this is horrible, this is beyond horrible, this is condemnable.

And interestingly enough, the response was, I know, which raises questions about, you know, why do you put that up in the first place? But that's neither here nor there. But I just, if you think about all the things that have happened in recent years, I can't think of anything that is akin to this in terms of the scope of the response.

And to me, that was what was a bit worrisome. And the fact that much of it, that, you know, guys were called racist, you know, again, a condemnable statement. But, you know, it was just going, you know, way out of bounds, as far as I'm concerned.

So, Savodi, what you're saying is you're concerned about the imbalance of the response.

Against the panel. Not the imbalance of the response. That's not the issue. Because there was no balance needed. It was condemnable. There was no balance needed. I was worried about the scope of it. People who just, what does Paige Patterson have to do with this?

You know? Why is Paige Patterson responding to this? And I think it comes down to two things. One, modern evangelicalism is enamored with the urban. If you want people to swoon, tell them you're an urban or any inner city minister or missionary, and they will swoon.

Because we're enamored with the urban. Because, you know, if you're doing urban ministry, you're doing rural ministry. If you're doing suburban ministry, you know, you're faking and shaking. And God forbid that you should be doing rural ministry.

You probably don't even deserve to live. But we're enamored with the urban. And we fear the ire of the ethnic. Last thing you want to be called is a racist. And I think because of those two things, hip-hop and rap bring together urban culture and ethnic culture.

And I think a bunch of white guys felt like they needed to cover themselves and prove that they weren't racist. Many of whom have absolutely no knowledge of this rap culture. And, you know, we know guys like Paige Patterson that anything that's, you know, coming down the pike that you put reformed in the front of, and you can get him to come in defense of, there's something else going.

On. Oh, there's much I can say about that that would take us way off track. So what I'm hearing you raising here is, for example, even Al Mohler commented on this on his program, The Briefing. Now, he did in the process promote Bach-only-ism, which is a whole new movement that we don't want to get into today.

And he even informed me that my favorite piece of classical music was written by Pantheus, which really, I don't even know why he had to tell me that. But he did choose to tell me that. But a number of the things that you just said scare me to have to ask you about them because of exactly what you're talking about.

In other words, these are ethnic issues, and I feel the pressure as a guy whose ancestors came from Scotland, I feel the pressure to not step on landmines, say the wrong thing, all the rest of that kind of stuff.

I feel that. I think in our culture today, even within the church, you can't help but feel that kind of pressure. Now, one of the things that you mentioned to me on the phone that really caught my interest was your concern that the breadth of the response from people who didn't really have anything to do with hip-hop culture or rap or anything like that might indicate that we could have problems in the future bringing proper criticism if imbalances developed even within what might be called the reformed rap movement.

Absolutely.

Explain what you're thinking there. Well, here's what I worry about, and I used a phrase on your program before when we talked, the phrase of ethnic Gnosticism, this idea that people treat ethnicity and culture like something that you can only understand if you're an insider and you can only critique if you're an insider.

And so you do that and it blunts any criticism. And so I see ethnic Gnosticism at work here. I think what that does is it puts us in a position where it's been said, and in some instances it's been said openly, basically, if you are white, you can't speak to this issue.

And I think there's a lot of conversation that needs to be had over the propriety of hip-hop culture in the church, rap in the church, ska, punk, metal, anything else. By the way, if that panel had addressed ska music or punk or metal, 90 of the people who responded to this would not have said a mumbling word.

It's because of this issue of ethnicity and because of this issue of urbanism. Can I chime in?

Ethnic Gnosticism, Urban Culture, and the Need for Real Critique

Yeah, please do, because I was about to chime in and ask Shailene a question, so go ahead.

Okay, so I want to push back a little bit on what Vody is saying. While it may be the case that the issue that you raised in terms of the infatuation with the urban and the fear of being perceived racist, I think that may be the case in some instances.

But I think a more charitable read on the situation is that many of these guys have started to actually form relationships with guys from hip-hop culture. So I looked at a Legan Duncan who responded or an Al Moller who responded or Mike Cosper from Sojourn who responded.

These are all people that I've had a good amount of interaction with. And so when they hear reform rappers being called disobedient cowards, for them it's not just this abstract kind of thing. They're talking about my brothers.

They're talking about people that I've had over for good. And I know their love for the Lord and their desire to exalt Christ. And so the thing that actually encouraged me about the response is that this is bigger than the particular philosophical issue as important as that is.

I think it's broader in the sense that this is about a group of people, people who need to be reached with the gospel and that God has in His kindness raised up people who speak the language of this group of people that need to be reached.

And then along those same lines, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, there was very little cultural interaction between the hip-hop world and the so-called white reform world. And I see it as a good thing that these worlds have come together to even enable this kind of, I just wanted to add that.

Let me throw something in there and then we'll see. So I'll throw it open there. One of the thoughts across my mind was my interpretation, Voti, of, and again, I don't know how wide the response is. I mean, I noticed, you know, when it makes it onto the briefing with Al Mohler, you know, that's normally right up there with nuclear weapons, Iran, and the Supreme Court.

Okay. It's been pretty well up there at the top of things. And my interpretation, the thought across my mind was, I would see, if I had decided to comment on it and I was in the middle of all sorts of other conflicts, so I didn't, but if I had done so, I probably would have done so for two reasons.

First of all, I'm sure all of you know that Ivy and I have worked together on a couple of videos on, well, one on marriage, a couple on Islam. And so I know I have at least some connection there in that we've worked together and tried to reach out in that area.

And then, you know, Shailen and I don't know each other very well. We've had some brief contact over the time, and I know he's aware of me and I'm aware of him, so on and so forth type thing. But the thought that crosses my mind when I hear Shailen is excellence in theology.

It's a willingness to address vitally important theological issues and a skill in presenting them in this amazing way that has obviously caused a lot of people who may not put Shailen or Ivy Connerly on their iPod to listen to in the car because that's just not their background, that's not the means by which they listen to things.

But they have a tremendous respect because they've looked at the words and gone, wow, not since Top Lady or somebody like that have we had that kind of theology put into verse or something like that. So I would think that would be part of the reason, anyways, why some people who otherwise just don't have that in their normal experience spoke out because you look at that and go, man, it takes some guts to put that stuff out there and to take the hits you're going to take, especially because if you're very specific in your theology, you're not even making friends in the entire Christian community.

Not only that, but to write a song like False Teachers and call people out by name, absolutely, I get that. And it is not my contention that every person who responded responded for that reason. My contention is that it is an issue, as you said, you worry about that yourself.

It is an issue. That idea of what I call ethnic Gnosticism, cultural Gnosticism, it is an issue and it tends to squelch conversation and to blunt debate. And there are many issues that need to be addressed and discussed across the board, regardless of whether it's, like I said, hip-hop or ska or punk or metal or whatever, you name it, when you talk about sort of niche Christian music and whatnot.

And my worry was that this would blunt discussion. And as I saw the snowball gaining momentum, I became more worried because then not only did you have this broad list of people who are responding, but at some point, I don't know about you, James, but sometimes when things happen and there are a number of people who chimed in, my response is, I'm glad they did that.

Now I don't have to. But in this instance, there was none of that. People weren't going, hey, I'm glad that boom, boom, boom, boom, boom did that. Now I don't have to. It's like everybody felt obligated to get in on this thing.

And I'm saying that those two issues, the idea of the urban and the idea of the ethnic are playing a part in this and that's what worries me because I don't want that to blunt the discussion. And I don't want it to be just chalked up to, you know, these guys were white, therefore they can't understand and that's why they have issues.

Because I believe even Shy and Ivy have issues with some of the things that they see within the context of Christian rap. Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead, Ivy. Absolutely. If I may, I'm sorry. Excuse me. Like what Bodie was saying, you know, I mean, there are people even within our own camp, you know, who are not fond of us.

I mean, even my brothers and sisters, so to speak, ethnically, you know, they don't rock with me anymore, if I could use that term, like they used to. Like the moment that, you know, when I first became a Christian, obviously I wasn't immediately reformed, but I was sound and orthodox and by God's grace, I started getting into the reformed theology.

So the moment that I started talking about election and started talking about false teachers and things like that, is when a lot of, you know, even the black church was pushing me away, like, hold up, you're going against my idols, you know, you're going against some of the people that I really look up to.

And I remember the first time me and you had an encounter, it was when the YouTube video was up on election and everyone thought it was you in the beginning of the election song. And then that's how we, you know, kind of interacted through email and stuff.

And then I'll tell you it was a guy named Daniel Uros or something like that out here in Southern California, but you guys sound so much alike. But you said also that great song though, even though you into rap, you was just giving the compliments to the theology in the songs.

And so I appreciated that. And then that's when we did, you sort of mentioned the justice system, helped me out a lot on that. And you did about, I think like Bodie, like three different interludes on that particular album, not because you were fond of rap, but because of the theology and that's what matters.

But earlier today I was reading a, it's on my Twitter feed, so I don't know exactly where it's at, but people are welcome to go check it out. It was a article and a guy said, I don't know who wrote the article, but he says lyrics, they're talking about the lyrics are sound, you know, and people are arguing that, you know, from that perspective, if the lyrics are sound, that's a bad argument.

Because he says that if the presentation violates Jesus prescription of true worship, then there are no more than just devils masquerading and whatnot. And I'm just like, wow, that's a crazy statement.

Because first of all, you know, there wasn't one scripture that was used to convey how the Lord is to be worshiped. You know, like we see, and I catch myself bringing this up a lot, like in Habakkuk 3, when you got the form of poetry, shigging off the shigayon in the Hebrew, which was perhaps a wild, passionate poem with rapid rhythm.

So truly what is the issue? Is it tempo? Because if it's a tempo, then we got to really search the scripture and see how many beats per minute we're able or we're allowed to have in our music in order for that to be acceptable to God.

But that's not the case at all. So it is content. It is the way we live our life from, of course, the right perspective, you know, with a mindset that is totally sound. And then out of that, you know, living that life and expressing the worship that doesn't, you know, that isn't forbidden in scripture and expressing that, you know, and I wouldn't tell anyone how they ought to worship God if you can't find it in scripture, if their lifestyle is—.

Before I ask a question about that, Shilin, did you want to chime in on that? A lot has been said. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah. So I want to say something back about what you were saying, because I agree that there needs to be open space for things to be critiqued biblically and that, you know, no one should get a pass just because they're from, you know, a certain ethnicity or cultural background.

So that's definitely not what I'm arguing for. And the irony for me as I watch the panel is that—and these brothers using a broad brush to paint us all—they didn't realize that there is a lot of variety within Christian hip-hop and that there are many things that we would be in agreement on with the guys from the panel and things that we've seen in Christian hip-hop that are concerning and need to be addressed.

Worship, Culture, and the Regulative Principle

Could you just sort of outline broadly what are some of your concerns?

So I'm concerned methodological. One of the things that I've seen is what appears to be a reliance on man's wisdom as it relates to methodology, pragmatism. So, you know, and Ivy and I have had some of these discussions.

So the desire to so-called reach the world, doing things like collaborating with secular artists, secular artists who are known for ungodliness, and then partnering with them and the idea of being to reach the world, I would have questions about that.

I would have questions about taking explicit Christ-exalting content and minimizing it for the sake of a broader appeal. I would have questions about that. And yeah, so these are things that have come up in our discussions within Christian hip-hop.

Well, let me ask everybody on the panel, because these are the questions that are running through my mind, and maybe that has nothing to do with the listening audience, or maybe it has everything to do with the audience.

I don't know. When you are, specifically I'd address this to Shailene and Ivy, but I'd also like to hear what Voti thinks as a pastor of a church. The conversation on the panel was about the regulative principle, which is about worship within the church.

Do you see a difference between you, Ivy, Shailene, you are asked to a conference, and you are asked to present some of your music, some of your rap on a particular subject. Do you see a difference between you doing that in that context and the actual specific worship of the church?

And also, what is your thought, and this is a very practical question, I'm a part of a church where that would just be so foreign to our experience of worship in the church. I mean, we use the Trinity Hymnal.

We sing Amen for crying out loud, okay? I mean, does anyone? We used to have in the Trinity Hymnal before we got the Baptist edition. You have the Baptist edition, don't you, Voti? Yeah, that's what we use.

Yeah, that's what we use, but you guys almost caught me up when I was there because you don't sing the Amens, and I think that's wrong. I want to publicly bring that up right now. I was almost left doing an acapella Amen after the first hymnal, okay?

And that's very embarrassing. It really is, especially for me. But we sing the Amens, and in the ones before the Baptist Hymnal, they had El Shaddai, you know, the El Shaddai song that Amy Grant made popular?

We sang the Amen to El Shaddai. Can you believe that? We may be the only congregation in the world that has ever sung an Amen to El Shaddai. Okay, so that just gives you an idea of just how completely disconnected from where a lot of people are that we are.

But the point is, it would just be like shattering glass to have a rap song in the middle of that. So how do you all see? Do you see a difference when you perform in a service or outside of a service?

Do you recognize that there might be some people that just would really have a hard time even following what you're saying? How do you put all this together? I think it's where a lot of people's questions are right now.

Yeah, you know what,.

I think it's just a preference issue. There's a lot of songs that you'll hear from Chi, that you'll hear from myself, that is melodic and that's a little bit on the softer side. Also, an awesome group, Humble Beasts, Beautiful Eulogy.

Those guys, when they perform, I get a sense of, it's like the praise and worship team came out and delivered some good praise and worship and song. So there are songs that I have, like on The Unknown God, that a lot of people would say is very acceptable in their church when they're singing and praising God, however they do, because of just the tempo and whatnot.

But there are faster songs that are more aggressive and it's just a preference issue. As long as the lyrics don't defy God and as long as it's bringing glory to God, then amen. I see in the songs, I see in the scripture that music was created to, of course, praise God, worship God in music and singing and with these instruments.

Also, it was used to encourage the body. Now, it was never intended to be an evangelical tool at the same time, since the Bible doesn't prohibit that. I thank God for that tool, that we're able to use it and be evangelical and actually preach the gospel through that medium.