Virginity of Mary, Donatists, and Bloggers

desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line on a special Monday evening edition of the program.

The reason we are doing it this evening, of course, is because if we didn't do it this evening then we wouldn't do it all week and there are a number of you who lack such an element of life itself that if we went for an entire week without doing

The Dividing line many of you would mope around and uh... would have nothing to do and then again they're also uh...

the the uh... legions of critics out there uh... whose lives are sober after the any other meaning that they need to have something to have a comment on uh...

and uh... so we we just need to try to help everybody out at at one time uh... by commenting on the dividing line presenting another program uh...

that means they will not be here at tomorrow obviously and on thursday in fact thursday evening i will be uh...

uh... somewhere on long island uh... i think of toward the north shore if i recall correctly uh...

doing a presentation on the king james only controversy uh... wednesday night's uh...

on uh... hicksville road uh... near northern state of the church of god there's preaching and then over the weekend doing a youth retreat for uh...

hope reform baptist church uh... out on the islands not to be on the islands could be in pennsylvania it's gonna be cold that's all i know i'm i'm putting a lot of warm stuff uh...

into the uh... into the the bags and be taken because it is going to be very very cold back there eight seven seven seven five three three three four one going to also utilize this time to uh...

respond to some of the uh... uh... issues that i've been responding to on the blog if you're not familiar with what a blog is that they weblog it allows you to well hopefully type short things some people type long things uh...

and uh... have faster interaction with people uh... for those of you who don't follow that uh...

there have been some interesting developments of late we'll look at some of those things house have a section to play from uh...

two sections really and i didn't convert it to a uh... uh... something i could really do the way i normally do restart rate we will start finish everyone finishes far as playing a clip goes still in the real audio file and i'm playing it out of uh...

real players so it's not a sort of have to guess and and uh... things like that uh... but i did play from uh...

i did uh... want to play a section from a uh... uh... catholic answers program actually uh...

a catholic answers program from back to this is a december third uh... december fourth of last year and this is point out to me uh...

last evening that uh... uh... jimmy aiken and says he's willing to debate it and the way he put this i want to correct any misunderstandings of the way this is expressed i guess it is to just go ahead and uh...

and uh... poland at all but i don't have uh... i hear no sounds and i think it was right around here let's see if we can find it let's try those telecommunications at the world's innocent here we go let's listen to this you're listening to a special edition of catholic answers live as we present the catholic dot com radio club membership hey we should have a dividing line club membership drive or something catholic dot com radio club call one eight eight eight two nine one eight thousand that's one eight eight eight two nine one eight thousand become a member today you know it's not actually the host of i recognize it's not a jury i can play that all right so lewis has been holding very patiently we welcome him from the dera california hi lewis hi lewis hey guys how you doing all right how about you i'm not really here though you know i hope you all know that i wanted to do this i know you hear me uh...

if he have you had are you gonna currently or not currently but real soon have another debate with maybe some uh...

maybe like former catholic priest or i mean that joke or something like that because and the reason why i'm asking is because i a m heard your debate it was antony pazoda no yeah that was really enjoyable don't think he had a separation debate yeah yeah that was really good not winning you have any other debate debate on different topics well i'm open to it um...

i've you know i've done a fair amount of debating in the past someone radio some informal venues and i'm i'm quite open to it i don't have any lined up at the moment uh...

one of the reasons for that is that it's just hard to find worthwhile debate partners and and set up worthwhile debate it takes a lot of effort it does not really do what i know they and i'm somewhat selective about who are doing with the i've tried to be that's hard if i'm going in the person is just gonna fear all over the road and they're off topic i've never been driving is really matter is just going to generate more heat than light and i'm not interested in that i want to write quality debate the quality of the other two quality debate and uh...

and have a market for more where they're doing good and people want more rather than do a lot of junk debate and and burn out people's patience with them uh...

so you know i'm i'm i'm quite open to doing more i had an inquiry uh...

here we go recently from uh... james white ask me uh... who uh... is uh... any catholic apologist any catholic i'll come on jane jimmy and um...

and you know i i said i was a i was open and you know trying to negotiate what would be reasonable debate topics and things like that and ran using stuff and i stopped hearing from uh...

you know so uh... so i don't know uh... that uh... well it's not clear from yet what he that he's exactly right uh...

right after the uh... debates on long island uh... i contact them because we didn't we're having a hard time buying folks dollar is to it i mean it is not easy uh...

to find folks to do debates with and uh... so though we had tried twice before with him and twice before you said yes and then he said no i've just come to conclusion and other people said this uh...

jimmy aiken doesn't like to fly he doesn't like to travel long distances and let's put its face it you can't get too much farther from san diego than long island i mean that is a long long ways uh...

so we found someone who's closer not local but closer than california uh... gary mitchell that he's going to be my uh...

my opponent this year on the subject the apocrypha and uh... so that was why i didn't uh...

follow up with that because there wasn't anything in california will now there is uh... this year's cruise will be going out long beach so once i get back to new york uh...

that i'll contact the jimmy aiken again say well you know uh... what about the possibly under throws out the people who are ranging it because we have some other thoughts along those lines and uh...

we have really come to a uh... a uh... conclusion exactly where one ago but make a long story short uh...

he says he's open to some in california as as he himself noted it takes a lot of work uh...

to put these things together and when you already have somewhat of a how shall we put it uh...

mechanism in place like on long island uh... like in uh... preparing for the uh...

the cruises so it's much much easier when you have people who already has an experience know what they're doing and then you can you can arrange a kind of thing and so you know that that uh...

is something we're definitely open to do it if he says he's willing to do so great fine wonderful and uh...

uh... you know i've done forty nine of them will will uh... will keep doing them in the future as long as lord gives us the opportunity of doing so uh...

obviously there's some other debates elect to pursue right now as well i'd like to keep that challenge out there to all day but we can do it we can do it a commodity said you would we can we can do it but will definitely try to find something other california that says i've got this fired up there was uh...

should've written down the there are some really interesting i i heard a caller and those who are regular listeners to the dividing line will go who that's interesting evidently other people are not uh...

regular listeners and seemingly aren't aware of of a number of the issues and see if i can find it here to do to do to go ahead sounds interesting it great services it's not that can't where it's talking about uh...

david's happened it's back it up a little bit this is why you need to do i believe it is uh...

one shop dot catholic dot com was a little bit of a commercial dollar shopping to create a hundred dollars shopping spree call this is a guy on call eight thousand uh...

dot com for all the abouts uh... the perpetual virginity of mary on december seventh and when you think about the conversations we had with jerry medics and without their expense and how deep we've gone into this this was really surface level right here with the catholic answers a lot as we present the catholic dot com radio club membership become a part of what makes catholic answers live by becoming a member of the catholic dot com radio called one eight eight eight two nine one eight thousand that's one eight eight eight two nine one eight thousand become a member today now back to the host of our program jerry usher and back to your great questions for jimmy aiken our director of apologetics today ben in fairfield california you're up next thanks for waiting i get out there yeah i just i wanted to ask out uh...

question on uh... mary and uh... mark i believe it is uh... one twenty five uh...

since uh... joseph did not have relations matthew one twenty five i'm sorry i met you one twenty five he had no relations with her until she was uh...

named jesus the protestants uh... through the world until death only proves without a shadow of a doubt that you've got a children and uh...

not and i i i expect when that deep not that wasn't of course uh...

jimmy aiken that was the uh... that was a income on my point of view is that i think he was emphasizing you know the point that he definitely was born virgin mhm i'm making any uh...

conclusive statement what happens afterwards you would be correct sir there any other thing you would add to that well yeah there are a number of things uh...

uh... i mean even in english we often they're simply wrong about what the word here means it's true both of the english word until which can carry the connotation that a situation later reversed but doesn't have to uh...

there it's uh... there are circumstances in which even in english the word until does not imply that uh...

a situation later changed i mean if i say uh... i didn't have you know let's suppose i'm i'm i'm uh...

i'm i'm trying to think of it you know there's a biblical example leaping to my mind so maybe i'll just go with that but it's in english so it'll work uh...

there's a a place in the greek old testament where it's talking about uh...

david's first wife michael uh... and how she didn't have any children until the day she died now have we all have not heard that one before i mean it this goes way back if you've listened to the svenson debate if you've listened to the debate i did with jerry matzik's list of dividing line but my experience is the folks at catholic answers do not listen to those things they do not take that information into consideration i doubt very much dr svenson's book has been looked at anything like that is just sort of like let's go with what worked uh...

back in nineteen you know eighty six or so well you know that shows us right there obviously she didn't start having kids after she died you know so um...

that situation didn't reverse itself it's simply a way of saying it didn't happen up to this point it didn't tell us anything about what happens beyond necessarily so um...

so you know there's an example where since it's in the greek old testament it tells us something about greek and we can even see how that makes sense in english i mean in english it makes sense to say this you know she didn't have any children until the day she died we understand that means she didn't have any children at all uh...

you could stop it right there because it's it's sort of like yes so you're not familiar first of all notice the use of the word term instead of phrase all the rest of that stuff just no seemingly no knowledge of it at all just it's it's not even figuring into uh...

the uh... the stuff over there so i think that's strikes me as a tad bit strange uh...

that he who is called staff apologist uh... would be unfamiliar with the developments have been taking place of the past number of years on this particular subject and uh...

you know i know jerry matics isn't with catholic answers anymore uh... but uh... still you know they're out there doing the stuff and it's good to in fact uh...

uh... i heard of uh... discussion of a debate that's uh... james aiken did all with someone a a former roman catholic is not a baptist missionary on the subject the priesthood i would love i'm gonna try to get get hold of it uh...

because we've we've we've debated that subject and i would very much like to know uh... what uh...

what the assertions are and uh... provide a response to it so well will follow up on that and uh...

seek to do so so just want to play that and then uh... take a look at some of these uh... these comments are out there those you've been following the uh...

the blog wars this week are somewhat some of you are somewhat confused some of you who have been keeping up with the auburn avenue presbyterian church conference controversy and new perspectivism in the relationships and non -relationships that exist between them if you've really kept up with it and you've listened to the program and we've you've uh...

maybe participate in some of the some of the discussions you're probably pretty disappointed and um...

i certainly am disappointed not only with individuals but with the fact that uh... there is just so little meaningful conversation going on uh...

there's a tremendous amount of uh... ad hominem uh... but very little exegesis very little meaningful discussion of of the important issues that that really this whole movement does illustrate for us a very different pictures of what god is about doing this world what apologetics is what uh...

evangelism is what the purpose of the church is what the nature of the church is there's a lot of foundational fundamental uh...

things that uh... uh... that go into all of this and uh... so some of you may may know that uh...

on the back of the really really low and here we'll start with that we'll start with the almost not worthy of mentioning and and we'll move up from there uh...

to something hopefully be a little more useful uh... but most of you know there is an anonymous blogger out there uh...

who a post on the name of purist and uh... you know when i when we first stumbled across his uh...

website uh... when was that uh... friday somewhere in the past number of days it was fairly new it started uh...

december twenty eighth if i recall and uh... you know the first few things were sort of funny uh...

individual obviously uh... is able to write uh... has a theological background uh...

generally people without theological background are not throwing out names like schleiermacher or tiller or things like that and uh...

obviously has some level of theological training uh... and of course has the ability to to uh...

engage in incessant sarcasm and so the first few things are sort of funny and uh...

talked about the great white shark and that's me and of course it's it's the entire blog is nothing but sarcasm uh...

it's uh... a blog of the reformed donatist faith and a lot of you've been asking what is this donatist stuff uh...

that's why i've recommended to a number of people of course you can you can automatically tell where someone's coming from where when you mention a book called reformers and their stepchildren by leonard verdine if the person if their if their heart rate increases by fifteen beats per minute their blood pressure shoots up uh...

by twenty percent their pupils dilate and they begin to drool you're probably dealing with a person who has some some very strong uh...

uh... sacralist viewpoints and tendencies uh... so so uh...

i would just recommend uh... verdine's work to you i had the opportunity of meeting him when he was i believe ninety eight years old he was still is as sharp as a tack uh...

at ninety eight years of age and uh... the donatist controversy refers uh...

to a uh... uh... gratuitous guess at purist identity that was very funny uh...

i'm sorry uh... that's why you need to be in the channel during this time it it helps you understand these things very very funny uh...

anyway that the donatist controversy the term is used by sacralists uh...

to refer to anabaptists primarily roman catholics and uh...

protestants used the term magisterial protestants that is who believe in a magisterial reformation both luther and calvin were magisterial reformers and hence they believe that the reformation uh...

needed to to extend to the entirety of the state church complex and if you're not familiar with church history then you you know that there there were people called anabaptists now that term anabaptist unfortunately is thrown about with as much abandon as donatist is and very rarely defined to uh...

uh... to any level whatsoever uh... of specificity and the term is used of a wide variety of people from trinitarians to non -trinitarians uh...

people who were uh... individuals who had orthodox beliefs about salvation people who didn't and all sorts of things like that but it's a it's a real very convenient term you can just throw it around and and uh...

and say ah you're an anabaptist and of course if you believe in credo baptism uh...

the baptism of uh... uh... of adults and of young people who make a profession of faith rather than pedo -baptism baptism of infants who cannot make a statement of faith or a confession of faith by nature of the fact they're infants uh...

many pedo -baptists will just simply throw an anabaptist term out there of anyone who is a credo -baptist and and hence uh...

we cannot truly be reformed and things like that because we just we just do not understand the covenant you're just and you get you get pat on the head and someday you'll understand things like that we've discussed some things in the past well anyway uh...

verdine goes through the various terms that were used of uh... by both catholics and protestants magisterial protestants sacralists who believe in the state church uh...

of the anabaptist and donatist is one of them and and the reason they use it is it went back to uh...

a historical situation in the church if you if you recall uh...

up until the the piece of the church in uh... the beginning century beginning decades of the fourth century when uh...

empire -wide persecution of the church came to an end 313 uh...

you know the council and i see is 325 during that period of time there was persecution and the church struggled greatly in how to respond to individuals who gave in under persecution now what kind of of giving in a retargeted well it depended uh...

obviously there were those who would go so far as to deny christ and and deny the the faith and and so on so forth and and almost everybody agreed that once you did that after the persecution ended there'll be no forgiveness there'll be no coming back into the church but what about other forms of quote -unquote giving in one of the things that the romans want to do is they wanted to take the scriptures away from the christians i'm not sure why they did this because uh...

you know the scriptures could have been overly relevant this point because you need to know the medieval period and they always i'm sorry i'm starting to get sarcastic aren't i uh...

they want to get the the the scriptures out of people's hands and so they would come and knock on your door they would say do you have any of the christian scriptures and uh...

if you gave up those scriptures then you were considered to have given in to have lapsed under persecution it even got to the point where some people recognizing that your average roman soldier was not the most literate guy at this point in time they had been earlier but remember rome's on the decline big time at this point and so your average roman soldier uh...

was was not was not a literary genius and so you might be able to get away with just giving him the ancient equivalent of time magazine and he would know the difference that was still considered by some of the more rigorous people uh...

to be uh... giving in to lapsing to uh...

to uh... any kind of cooperation whatsoever uh... with the governing authorities who were persecuting christians would be considered uh...

being lapsed and so the church struggled with well what do we do with these people once persecution ends because remember persecution was was very frequently a geographically uh...

limited thing there were only a few periods where it was absolutely empire -wide and so when the persecution ended now what do you do that led to all sorts of arguments and debates as to what you were having to uh...

how you could bring people back into the church now take all that as a background during one of the periods of persecution in the third century uh...

there was a man who was accused of lapsing, giving in in regards to giving the scriptures to the romans now after all these centuries and and everything else no one will ever be able to know until eternity itself uh...

the actual uh... facts of the matter on this particular issue uh... we won't know whether he did he didn't whatever uh...

the fact is he was accused of this now what happened after persecution was over was this man was involved as one of the individuals who laid hands upon uh...

another person in setting him apart and ordaining him to the bishopric to being a bishop in north africa now the rigorists said look uh...

that individual because he lapsed under persecution cannot be properly involved in the ordination of someone else because he is in a lapsed state so therefore because the state of his own soul then his engaging in a sacramental action of setting apart someone else that person is not properly set apart he can't do that because he's not properly related to church because he has lapsed from the faith and so they refused to recognize the validity of the ordination of this bishop because of the uh...

involvement of this man that they believed had lapsed under persecution this led to a schism and that schism is called the donatist schism uh...

the donatists were those who elected their own bishop in place of this bishop and one of those bishops in that line was named donatist and therefore they were called donatists as the followers of him and by the time of augustine there were so many augustine coming uh...

over a century later uh... there were so many donatists in north africa that many people believe they outnumbered uh...

those who continued to follow after the bishop who had been uh... ordained and augustine would be representative of that catholic group over against the donatists and uh...

so there's lots more talk about how you know this was very relevant to how augustine eventually gave in to allowing the use of force for the suppression of heresy at first he did not feel that was a proper thing to do but he was put under a lot of pressure and eventually he allowed the emperor to send troops to to physically uh...

repress the donatist churches and uh... and of course you know what what happens when you use military force all that does is cause the uh...

the movement they seem to suppress to grow uh... at least uh... in in uh... the context in which it was found and so uh...

uh... the donatist churches continued to exist up until uh... the muslim expansion in the seventh century and uh...

and then they basically disappeared at that point in time that again almost everything in north africa did as far as christianity was concerned now what does all this have to do with the use of donatist well the donatist uh...

the the the substance of the the argument that makes us relevant to our day and time is that the donatist rejected the idea that a sacrament functions merely because the sacrament is done correctly uh...

they rejected what eventually became the a quote -unquote orthodox view of the catholic church and this became such primarily under the influence of augustine uh...

which is called ex opera operato ex opera operato the the for the sacraments function merely by the functioning of the sacrament the person who uh...

specifically operates or performs the sacrament his spiritual condition is irrelevant that's why even today a roman catholic would believe that a muslim could validly baptize someone in an emergency situation as long as it's done in the name of the trinity uh...

the the state of grace of the individual performing the action is irrelevant that's ex opera operato the donatist believe in ex opera operanti that is that the state of grace or the condition of the soul the person performing the sacrament is relevant and therefore an unbeliever cannot perform proper sacraments and therefore uh...

you see the difference between the two now what that eventually led to was that the donatists rejected a sacral system they did not uh...

they did not accept the idea that just because you are baptized uh...

into a church uh... as a as an individual that means that that is a valid church or that you've been validly baptized and that led to a a schism and the establishment of two churches in sacralism what you have is a identification of state and church together so that your baptism also becomes your your entrance into uh...

the the state uh... in fact most people aware that at the time of the reformation one of the key issues in regards to infant baptism and one of the reasons that the princes who rebelled against rome uh...

still uh... pushed for infant baptism was that the tax rolls in that day were based upon the infant baptism rolls that's how you became a citizen you became a member of the church and a citizen by the same sacramental action and this goes back to uh...

the the situation in the north africa uh... augustine having to fight against the viewpoint of of cyprian uh...

who rejected uh... this ex opera operato uh... perspective in many of his writings and uh...

augustine's fighting against him in augustine's position becoming the the standard perspective and so really what what's what it's all about the reason you you have the the donatist uh...

argument being thrown out there uh... is that those who are are into the idea of a we need to have a second christendom and and uh...

you need to you create a christian society through baptism uh... this is something the donatist rejected and so they try to slap this uh...

this title onto uh... reform baptists like myself so on so forth uh... as if it's uh...

well they were heretics back then and well you're a heretic now and therefore uh... that's uh... that's the relevance of the whole donatist thing so when you've seen that uh...

in the blogs and in the in the in the discussions uh... that's where that's some of the background gives you a real quick uh...

rundown the background of why that term is being used and what the what the reference of it is and so uh...

with that said uh... uh... we're gonna go ahead and uh... take our uh... our our quick break and then we'll uh...

continue commenting on these things we'll be right back right after this under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort christian teaching on this behavior in their book the same sex controversy james white and jeff neal write for all who want to better understand the bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational bible passages that deal with homosexuality including genesis leviticus and romans expanding on the scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to god's plan for his people the same sex controversy defending and clarifying the bible's message about homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at a omen dot org millions of petitioners from around the world are employing pope john paul the second to recognize the virgin mary as co -redeemer with christ elevating the topic of roman catholic views of mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book mary another redeemer james white sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from roman catholic sources to explore this volatile topic he traces how mary of the bible esteemed mother of the lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of god has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed queen of heaven viewed as co -mediator with christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the roman catholic church mary another redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to god's truth you can order your copy of james white's book mary another redeemer at a omen dot org this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the phoenix reformed baptist church the apostle paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of god the proclamation of god's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church the elders and people of the phoenix reformed baptist church invite you to worship with them this coming lord's day the morning bible study begins at nine thirty a .m.

and the worship service is at ten forty five evening services are at six thirty p .m.

on sunday and the wednesday night prayer meeting is at seven the phoenix reformed baptist church is located at thirty eight oh five north twelve street in phoenix you can call for further information at six oh two two six grace if you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at p r b c dot org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and bible study lessons available twenty four hours a day you're listening to a special edition of the dividing line spurgeon held hostage the days are coming down for his inevitable release as the publication date for debating calvinism five points two views nears get your pre -publication copy hand signed by doctor white today at a omen dot org and uh...

i think that sounded a little live actually i don't know what you're talking about calvin and i was a kind of spurs you know that's calvin to virgin held hostage believe me believe me calvin calvin is is screaming for a few pieces well i think that uh...

yes well hey folks if you're not aware of its um... uh... there is a uh... there is a little link there on our main page to the upcoming book calvinism debated five points two views i did i did mention that in some places on the planet is only by dave hunt i am no longer so specific book there on the third cut my sections out of the book uh...

in uh... in uh... uh... canada and uh... the united kingdom in france and germany at amazon dot com uh...

my name is not associated with the book at all it's just books gone and it's like i've that's partisan state i doubt they really meant to do that but uh...

anyway um... i saw an email and i'm not sure if i think i forwarded over to you i saw an email where uh...

one book distribution service was saying that they expect to have that book in there warehouse by the twelfth of february now i don't know where they got that unless they talk to multnomah so uh...

i'm sort of hoping that maybe by even mid february by the fifteenth or so we may have them and uh...

the last time we did this we did it with uh... the god who justifies if you pre -order the book uh...

that first run that we have then uh... i will sit down and give myself hand cramps which is why did last time we dragged my kids over a dragged everybody over and uh...

we had a huge book signing party we had all the all the uh...

mailers ready to go and labeled and as soon as those books hit man i just started sign away and uh...

stick them in there and and send them out so the ups guys going to go absolutely bonkers uh...

the day we do this but be it as it may it's available on our website you can pre -order it now i know it's all you can order one time there's a reason for that and it's a good reason for that so just go ahead and go for it but hopefully you you should be able to get hold of it even by the end of february if we can get them uh...

uh... uh... yeah i know that some people actually saying it's already available well it's not and uh...

so anyways uh... uh... get ordered get pre -ordered so that uh... if you'd like to have it uh...

signed then uh... who knows twenty years from now you can sell it on ebay for fifty five ninety five just like somebody was doing one of my earlier books uh...

from from uh... more than a decade ago so anyway uh... no my kids were not signing while i was resting uh...

they can they will tell you that uh... back to the uh... the strange uh...

odd things i mentioned this purist guy the first few things you know the first first couple days they were you know they're funny they're not anymore uh...

since there's no substance here it's just the same repetition the same now very tired old things uh...

it's really boring and uh... it's not funny anymore sarcasm is only funny up to a point and then we just keep going with it it eventually becomes really sort of sad and so a purist has become really sad and uh...

i sort of feel sorry for him because you can just only take that type of thing so far and so you actually have the guts and the integrity to stand up and say actually my name is such and such a person here's a positive presentation i believe uh...

this person will do that and so uh... you know uh... sort of really boring uh... then now we go over to uh...

to uh... tim enlos website and and i know he said okay you get the last word but that's really silly because that's not what's been happening for those you've been following this you know that uh...

mister enlo and i attempted to discuss the galatians two passage on julie staples board quite some time ago i wonder when that was maybe she knows the specific date uh...

and uh... i didn't get very far because we were told that uh...

you know i i just allegedly and this keeps being repeated claim uh...

that i can do perfect exegesis that has no influences from the outside and all the silly stuff that anyone who's read the interchange knows i've never made those claims that very clearly state my position and that is certainly one of the the key issues in what i'm seeing from almost all these individuals not everything one of the vast majority of is this complete inability to accurately represent what is being said uh...

and to constantly wander off into stuff that is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand is it's it's very very frustrating it was sad to see a someone that uh...

i've said many times i i uh... very much like uh... tim enlo and he's a very sharp fellow uh...

but uh... it's sad to read things like uh... uh... no i don't think you do i think rather that you're just one more arrogant little modern pretending to be better than everything and everyone else everyone who's come before you and that your attitude toward those who disagree with you is one of the most unchristian un -christ -like things i've ever seen or heard on this internet and it just goes on and on and on and and it's it's very very sad to see this complete lack of balance and and things like that and even after saying okay i'm not going to say any more about that even today's blog entry which is on something completely different uh...

says i really need to read noel again because especially in light of present goofy criticisms of course certain critics ought to read noel and hatch and murray and schaefer too but that requires paying attention to more things than exegesis and that's just too hard for some i guess now who's being talked about there well who is he gone after in regards to discussion of exegesis but yours truly and so it's it's uh...

a little bit like another fellow i know of i've known for a number of years who can't write anything without taking a shot at me in a footnote or something along those lines uh...

it just so uh... absorbed and and focused upon uh...

taking shots my direction even when there's you know but nothing to keep it going from my side this is like oh i just must say this and so after the citation you've got uh...

one has to wonder whether certain professing calvinist are actually merely evangelicals who've pasted a thin veneer of calvinistic sentences on top of their obscurantist culturally sterile semi -fundamentalist evangelicalism i can guarantee you none of those words were meant in a happy or nice way big difference between say kyper and your average calvinist theology wonk today theology wonk i guess you can do that on blogs calvinists who proclaim themselves uninterested in how the world works because all they care about is achieving objective exegesis of holy writ that's uh...

allegedly me anyone who knows me knows my ministry has heard me preach knows that's well that's a that's a lie it's dishonest and it's a lie but you see i don't think that that uh...

tim anymore is even functioning on the level of of dealing with reality uh...

so it's just sort of just part of the rhetoric are not the solution to the problem they are part of the problem they are literally at war with the created world denying its instrumentality and fundamental goodness under god and so of course is brings them into open conflict with orthodox reform theology on every point from means of grace to understand the gospel is something that puts all christ enemies under his feet not really something that rescues the souls of the elect the latter kind of calvinism isn't even worthy of the name and it's certainly not connected legacy of the man himself much less the reformation as a whole in other words just simply uh...

take my purse my particular perspective uh... special mascot logical perspective and and we are the only truly reform folks and it's really sad to to see the the term uh...

and the the advances that were being made in uh... and continue to be made in promoting the the sovereignty of god the power of god uh...

to see that being uh... deflected by this kind of uh... behavior is it's a sad thing it truly is now one individuals that uh...

has sought to give an answer uh... for uh... mister and low because i invited him to uh...

interact with me on the exegesis of of glacians chapter two it seems like it's one of the most uh...

uh... offensive mean unkind unloving things to invite these individuals to actually reason with you from the scriptures come let us reason together let us go to the word of god uh...

there's great offense taken my site as a eight twenty to the law to the testimony to do not speak in accordance with word there is no light in there's no donna how dare you do that it's uh...

they just just absolutely go nuts it's it's it's incredible to see it happening you would think that that would be the first thing that someone who is reform their theology would want to do would be to go to the text of scripture into listen to what god has to say but that's not uh...

that's not what happens and so i invited mister and low to uh... uh...

to discuss with me uh... the uh... text of of of glacians chapter two and uh...

uh... you know what uh... uh... mister pierce on the other side of the wall i don't want someone uh... uh... running up a massive phone bill i don't know that i'm gonna uh...

get anywhere as far as calls today i i really did mention on the blog that i wanted to uh...

respond to this stuff and so i'm gonna i'm gonna try to do so in the time we have left so i don't have to rush through it and uh...

run someone's phone bill up and say hey i can't uh... i can't uh... get you on the day so why we just go ahead and uh...

uh... take a little situation uh... one of the people who responded in the place of mister and low uh...

is alistair and i i don't know who alistair is uh... i think he's british uh...

he seems to be a big fan of nt right and new perspectivism which again i find uh...

strange uh... especially because every time i note this uh... confluence that's coming together of new perspectivism and auburnism even though i have on this program have clearly distinguished between the two demonstrate they come from different perspectives and then noted the places where they're connecting up with one another there's a conference going on within the next couple of weeks where you've got norman shepherd and steve slissel there auburn avenue folks uh...

at date at uh... john armstrong's thing and and he's new perspective and and they're coming together and they're they're cooperating in doing things because some of their conclusions even though the way they uh...

they get there are very different i have obviously sought to differentiate between them and to them note the strange confluence between the two uh...

that has also offended people to no end how dare i do something like that well how about explaining what's going on if there's another way of explaining it well anyway alistair has uh...

has responded to this is on his blog i've linked to the blog i believe i think it uh...

yeah i'm pretty sure i did and when you do in so much blogging and uh... putting these things up there sometimes you lose track but i'm pretty certain i did provide the uh...

uh... the reference uh... to it it's certainly on mister enlos site and i've definitely refer to that so anyway i've already started responding to some of the things were noted here he he brings up the issue the new perspective and i i pointed out hey i'm responding to nt right because nt writes the one who's making the uh...

uh... the info the the uh... inroads into reform churches today in the united states and so yeah i've responded and uh...

what will go from there he says he posted a big long article that's fine i'll be perfectly honest with you i wasn't impressed the fact is greatly unimpressed uh...

with the very failed attempt to reach to interact with uh... uh... the duncan article and the fact that's where i found it was on this particular website and if you want to read about that that's i'd provide the link on the on the on the main page as well uh...

i've already responded on the blog to the question of uh... of christian knowledge and uh...

then after that we have the nature of of christian faith and this is much of doctor white's argument at this point rest on the assumption of baptism itself is not part of the foundation of the christian life uh...

well not sure he means by that uh... baptism is a command of god baptism and the lord's supper are ordinances of the church and so they're extremely important but if what he means is do i believe it's baptism that makes me a part of the covenant no i do not uh...

baptism possibly in the holy spirit the regeneration yes because it's the covenant the blood of christ and i believe the christ died for his elect uh...

and that's a crisis not fail to save any who are in the covenant is blood but uh... the idea of baptism as the means uh...

of being entered into the covenant yes i would definitely disagree with that if that's what is being referred to he goes on to say this is not surprised me doctor white like most other reformed baptists treats the christian faith as something that is fundamental should be fundamentally a system of doctrinal truth that's untrue uh...

maybe that's what he's been taught uh... maybe that's what he believes uh... because this is a constant refrain through most of what i'm reading here is that somehow if i am concerned about the accuracy and purity of doctrine that that means that that's all there is a christian life and that therefore what i believe about the trinity does not impact my life that's baloney that that that is absolute there there is no reason for that no one who's listened to me preach no one who would come to the finish for baptist church and listen to ministry the word whatever come up with that conclusion but it is fundamental to the argumentations put here it's offensive to me obvious it's very offensive uh...

but i try to leave that aside and just say why in the world you said where do we say that uh...

how why is it that just because we don't see baptism as a means of entrance into uh... a new christian society that means that that we somehow make this disjunction when we don't we may not make the same connection you do uh...

because we disagree with your exegesis of hebrews eight and other pastors regarding baptism okay so what uh...

the church is ultimately bound together by common ideas rather than by participating together in common practices of common life no both you can have either or uh...

the common ideas not ideas but confession the confession what it what binds all christians together it is the confession that jesus christ is lord uh...

so is it is jesus christ is lord is that a is that a doctrinal uh... idea is that a uh...

something just exists out there as these people like to say no it it is what binds us together and it becomes central to how we live together in the body of christ without that confession there is no body of christ uh...

so this the saying that we make this disjunction is false and no no effort is made to to seek to establish it so mister allister is just simply ignorant of what he's discussing here uh...

he says he should not be surprised i strongly disagree with him no you disagree with a straw man you don't disagree with me uh...

because you don't know what i believe and evidently have not sought to uh... in any way inform yourself of what i believe about these particular these particular issues uh...

our theologizing does not have to do with some abstract system of doctrine uh... okay uh...

again all based upon this idea well if you have an abstract system of doctrine that's somehow separate from life how about we put them both together uh...

any statement i make about the doctrine of the trinity is going to be theological but then the application of it is also be theological uh...

this this disjunction has no basis either in the text or in my faith regeneration justification election are not abstract truths about how the individuals to be saved their facts realities are known within the physical temporal invisible church these realities should be seen in the worship of the church when she is faithful to christ the church is not some abstract doctrine is a living reality no kidding evidently hasn't read much my books uh...

they were of address that our doctor the church not be too dissimilar from an old testament doctrine israel really mhm there you have a really good example from my perspective of exactly uh...

what was uh... discussed in uh... uh... uh... is discussed a number of books that one of the main problems uh...

with pedo baptist argumentation is a reading of the new test as it was the new uh...

the continuity of the doctrine of grace does not mean that the old testament new testament uh...

are to be made uh... mirror images of one another which in essence is what happens especially here someone signing acts to three thirty nine that way i continue reading an old testament doctrine of israel should never be abstracted had to deal with the imperfect historical community of israel in a similar manner our doctor the church must take into account the reality of the church in all its historical complexity and imperfection uh...

well i'm not claiming the perfection of the church in its uh... behavior uh... but i am recognizing the fact that you have uh...

wheat and tares in the world not just the church by the way it's a common misapprehension that particular passage uh...

and i do believe that the uh... new covenants uh...

is is better superior to not just in numbers but in its very uh...

essence uh... to that of the old covenant reformed baptist try to find the christian faith in such a way as to render any historical ecclesiastical community as peripheral what do you mean peripheral uh...

what what what is what is the essence i don't know the christian faith is fundamental the christian faith is fundamental i think is is spellcheck went through and and took out fundamentally every time it was found change was fundamental the christian faith is fundamentally a system of doctrinal truth the church is a group of people who believe these truths of course we can never know who really believes these truths deep downside similarly functionally kids ecclesiology is generally adopted this again goes back uh...

to the objective covenant concept based on baptism uh... versus credo baptism and the desire for a confession of faith from the individual so giving it uh...

he says i'm convinced that the christian faith primarily be understood as a public fact rather than a private belief system seeing a christian society can never be a marginal concern the gospel the creation of a christian society lies very hard the gospel the church is a new nation amidst the world the nations the world a call to submit lord of all jesus christ as a gospel is a public fact of christ universal lordship i think the chopping down pagan trees the perfectly reasonable way of going about proclaiming it and for doctorate information i don't believe that this necessarily demands that we hold a particular for post -millennialism well uh...

it certainly sounds like it to me uh... because there in that paragraph you see one of the chief ways in which new perspectivism and uh...

auburn avenue ism uh... or at least the wilsonian version of it uh... come together if you would read that paragraph and then read peter lighthearts against christianity you would see the connection between the two very very clearly this concept of christian society in the sad part of this in the thing that i think is very dangerous uh...

about all of this is you see the the diminishment of concern about justification by grace through faith alone the concept of imputation of course new perspectivism new uh...

imputation being denied uh... at least in its historical understanding of what it means to be justified uh...

in favor of this concept of a christian society what is a christian society if you do not have regeneration and this is a good idea then goes back to the idea of people who are christians who are part of the church who are unregenerate and that is connected with pedo -baptism and a view of the new covenant and uh...

obviously there are pedo -baptists who disagree with this application and in reality the auburn avenue issue and this kind of issue is sort of a retreading of the northern presbyterian versus southern presbyterian hodge versus dabney stuff that's been going on for a long long time it's not that it's really overly new except for maybe the veneer and uh...

the the addition of medievalism and architecture and stuff that comes out of moscow idaho uh...

but other than that it at least those fundamental issues people may go around for a long time and reform baptists really aren't a part of that debate because we say to both sides uh...

that that's you guys' debate because you know on the nature of the new covenant we completely disagree with you anyway and here's why and so uh...

the arguments that i would make against uh... the the auburn position really require me to be consistent with my understanding the nature of the covenant anyway and so that raises a whole nother another area but obviously i do not believe uh...

that the creation of a christian society lies very hard the gospel uh... that christian society is the church and as the church is blessed in a land as we see historically at times it is than that land is blessed but there are times when a land by turning against the blessing has been its or hers or however you want to use it for a country uh...

then receives the judgment of god and that church however must remain faithful even in the midst of all of that uh...

the christian society uh... as i understand the word christian and the meaningfulness of that term would require uh...

that we refer that to the church where you have regenerate individuals who love god's word and are obedient to christ uh...

and that's what the lordship of christ then would would uh... would be all about i'd i think there is a tremendous cheapening of the lordship of christ uh...

when you make it the kind of lordship that is seen in the example it's used here the ok guys mark when boniface cuts down the ok guys mar uh...

and then you you end up with sprinkling all these pagans and now you have basically pagans with cleaner hair than they had before that that doesn't change the heart that is not create a christian society uh...

in any way shape or form uh... history shows us this uh... look at what has happened in in europe uh...

over the past uh... over the past number of decades uh... many of those people were baptized but they weren't changed by their baptism that external activity does not change the heart and many of these people i'd agree it doesn't change our but we can't know who the elect are yeah but you know what uh...

when you are court isn't it part and parcel of our calvinistic theology that the person who is given by the father to the sun comes to the sun confesses faith in the sun yes there are external results in time of that election in eternity and we don't have to run from those recent results to something else to some other other uh...

external thing well you just couldn't have this problem by the baptism is calling back the faithfulness their baptism and that's not not found in scripture uh...

that that's just not the the concept of all well i didn't even get to uh... the next section is combat this be reformed and that and uh...

then our own catholics brothers i believe we ought to recognize roman catholics as our brothers i believe this for a number of different reasons well that's why i'd like to be able to get into glacians to uh...

and the nature of roman the roman catholic gospel can't get into it it's not mentioned there and i'm in canada's from time but uh...

because we're running out of time right now but there's no attempt to even deal with the argumentation that has been put forward on this issue that they're clearly can be false brother the church in those false brethren in glacians to were teaching a system of theology that was significantly more orthodox in what roman catholicism does so how in the world can you can you possibly uh...

avoid the way to that passage well seemingly unfortunately alistair did uh... maybe there'll be something more coming in the future on that but uh...

didn't get a chance to respond everything but uh... hopefully began the process and hopefully help some of you clear up some of the confusions you've had in regards to uh...

in regards to what's been going on there not to be here the rest of the week as far as the violent goes but lord willing back on tuesday evening the twenty seventh of january look forward to seeing you then thanks for listening to god bless brought to you by alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at six oh two nine seven three zero three one eight or write us at p o box three seven one zero six phoenix arizona eight five zero six nine you can also find us on the world wide web at a o min dot org that's a o m i n dot o r g where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next