Jehovah's Witnesses, Deity of Christ, and Theological Balance

274 -1360 or 1 -888 -550 -1360. Those are the numbers to be involved in the program this week. I'm back and I like the fact that we have a full studio today. That does not include a studio audience, but we have a full studio today, joined by the Diaz clan over here on my left and one member of the Porter clan on my right.

Before we get started with our topic today, I have a special guest in studio with me. Mike O 'Fallon is sitting across from me and I first got to know Mike by email last year when Mike contacted me out of the blue.

It sort of scares me when people do that. He says, you know, we'd like to have you out and have you speak at a conference and then go on a cruise. Now, I have never been on a cruise. I had never been on a cruise before in my life.

I had seen people like John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul and all these big fancy people go on cruises and all. My wife had said to me that she really, really, really, really, really, really wanted to go on a cruise someday, but we've never been able to do anything like that.

We didn't take vacations. So I get this email that says, you know, we'd like to have you come down and go on this cruise with us. And I'm like, well, OK, let me mention it to my wife. And my wife's response was, we're going on that cruise whether I have to teach or not.

And so that was a clear indication to me that it had been decided unilaterally that we were going. So I went down to Clearwater, Florida and had a most interesting time for for a week, staying with with the O 'Fallons and learning everything there is to know about the O 'Fallons.

And I had a wonderful time down there, aside from the fact that, folks, if you've never been to Florida, bring lots and lots and lots of deodorant. Because it is very, very humid there in comparison to our wonderfully dry desert climate here in Phoenix.

And so anyways, we did the conference. I spoke on the King James Only controversy. What else did I speak on? Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and how to effectively witness them. That's right. And we had some King James Only folks that just sat there very stoically watching, watching me give that presentation.

And waiting for the power to go out. That's exactly right. We had a thunderstorm come through right in the middle of my presentation. And I told everybody, if the power ever goes out during the middle of this presentation, it is going to be taken as direct evidence that God struck me dumb in the middle of that thing.

But it didn't. And so we we had the conference and spoke on Mike Gendron was with us, spoke on Roman Catholicism. And then we got on the boat. Now, we were only for four days that time. And we went down to the Caribbean.

I never got off the boat. I was such a I was not a fun person at all. I mean, I said it. I didn't. That's right. Well, you know, I saw it in your eyes. And but I just loved being on the boat. I just I just thought it was it was it was a blast.

And we had wonderful times of ministry and teaching there on. Is it a boat or a ship? It's a ship. It's a ship. Yeah. OK. It's how many tons? I believe it's 77 ,000 to 77 ,000 tons. So it's it was a wonderful, wonderful time.

And we weren't even off the ship before everybody was talking about next year. Well, now it's next year. And now you're. Do you have a license to, you know, to arrange these things? You've all of a sudden become the cruise director.

Well, yeah, we're going as a nonprofit organization that we've set up. This year, what we're going to be doing is going on the non-smoking cruise ship, the Paradise. Right. So it's going to be a great time.

Inerrancy, Sola Scriptura, and the Cruise Conference

But most importantly, the most important thing is is the topic. And that's inerrancy. Right. And as you and I both understand, when you are going to bring the holy writ to somebody, that if you establish that as the authority, that's the most important thing.

And if you find within evangelical communities and within seminaries themselves, you have a problem where people are starting to to take a very liberal approach to scriptures. And that in itself is going to hurt your exegesis.

It's going to determine your exegesis. Actually, it's all of a sudden you can start ignoring what one person says or start interpreting one passage in contradiction to another passage. And it creates tremendous difficulties.

So other than suffering through my presentations on issues like the King James only controversy and solo scripture and things like that. Who else is going to be going along? Well, first of all, we have Dr. Robert Thomas from Masters Theological Seminary, who is the professor of New Testament there.

And Dr. Thomas is the author of The Jesus Crisis, which is the inroads of historical criticism into evangelical scholarship. And Dr. Thomas, his specialty is dealing with the synoptics and how they harmonize and work with each other instead of against each other.

That book didn't didn't get him a lot of extra speaking engagements at various seminaries, did it? No, as a matter of fact, I know it divided a lot of seminaries. Oh, yeah, sure. He went ahead and named names.

Right. And at a seminary like Dallas Theological Seminary, where you have someone like Daryl Bach, then who's up against Toussaint, who takes a very, very conservative view of scripture and understands that you cannot support solo scriptura unless you take a look at the scriptures as whole and complete and inerrant and without any dependence upon another document that we might not possibly have.

Right. And who else is coming along? Dr. Eugene Merrill, who's professor of Old Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary. And you might know him from a tremendous amount of commentaries. He's written in the Walvoord Suck commentaries.

He's also written in the New American commentary as well. Which is just now coming out. I just got a few of those volumes just recently for writing an article for them on Cale Ripplinger. Yeah, that was that was my pay for the article was a couple of copies of the New American commentary.

And then Mike Gendron is going to be back with us. And he has the book Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries. It is in Dallas, isn't it? That's in Dallas. Right. And he was, of course, he and I were the main speakers last year.

And then you're going to be there to entertain. Yeah, we all said the possibility of having a named Christian artist. We haven't got that all sewed up yet. But I'm sure that Dr. White is going to let you all know if that happens.

Yes, yes, yes. And that we can actually know about that within this next week. Yes, I hope we find out this week, because if we can get this particular gentleman to be with us, it'll be a great boon, I think, to what we're trying to do.

And this is a seven day cruise on the Paradise, which is a non-smoking ship, 77 ,000 tons. It's beautiful. I mean, we were on the Imagination last year, and these are beautiful ships. They have the stabilizers and all that stuff, for those of you who are scared of such things.

But we just sort of went down to Cozumel and back again last year on the four day cruise. This is a seven day cruise. Real quickly, the basic places we're headed. Now, you've been on this one. This is where my wife and I honeymooned last year, one year ago, tomorrow.

And where we hit, we go to San Juan, Puerto Rico, we spend two days there. Then we go to the British Virgin Islands, Tortola and Virgin Gorda. And then we stop last in St. Thomas, U .S. Virgin Islands.

Wow. Just a beautiful trip. Yeah. And the ship is gorgeous. You and I, we worked out in the gym there. Then we ran into a windstorm, and Mike and I tried to go jogging on the jogging track on the top deck of this massive thing.

And going into the wind, were we making forward progress? It was really sort of hard to tell at that particular point in time. I had never experienced that kind of a... It was great resistance exercise.

It really was. And then the other way, you feel like Carl Lewis. Oh, wow. Look at me go. It was incredible. But these trips, now, I can't take too much more time here. You've got to tell folks about the fact that when you have dinner on these ships, you never saw me do this, but you know a certain trick when you eat in these incredible dining places.

Well, first of all, when you do pay your price for the cruise, that doesn't mean that you have to pay extra for your food. No. On the cruise itself, you can sit down at dinner and say, You know, I want the lobster and also the New York strip.

And you know what? Go ahead and throw in the salmon as well. So you can basically have them bring out three entrees to you. Right. And did you ever happen to experience that, Mike? Well, you know, I would take little bits.

I think I'd finish the whole thing. Mike, I was sitting right next to you. I have photographic evidence to the contrary. Well, it was an incredible experience, of course. I found the 24-hour pizzeria to be just a tremendously wonderful addition to any type of situation like that.

But we had wonderful Bible studies. We had tremendous fellowship. And what's the dates? Dates is October the 15th through the 22nd, year 2000. October 15th through the 22nd. That's coming up. And we need to have folks get hold of us.

Now, we have further information, pictures and stuff like that on our Web page now. Finally, I got the article up there. And then once folks take a look at it and go, hey, that's something I want to do, they call Ann Reynolds at AAA at...

1 -800 -677 -0830. 800 -677 -0830, a number to tattoo on your brain. And they need to do that fairly quick. We can't be putting this stuff off because it impacts how many cabins are available to us and things like that.

So the subject will be the inerrancy, the transmission of Scripture. The canonization of Scripture. Sola Scriptura. The translation of Scripture. I'll be addressing the King James Only issue. Tota Scriptura.

Things like that. All those issues that come together to form the foundation of our belief in the Scriptures as the Word of God. And I know one thing. Gentlemen, if you're married and you haven't had that wonderful vacation with your wife yet, this is a definite thing to do.

The ladies really love these cruises. And I think the guys love them a whole lot too. It was just so beautiful out there out on the front of that ship as it's going through this. You see nothing. Just nothing but ocean.

It's just a really, really special time. Well, thanks, Mike, for inviting me the last time. And it's amazing that you're actually bringing me back a second time. That's the amazing part to me. But I'm really looking forward to it.

I know my family is very much looking forward to it. And it's going to be a tremendous time of ministry. So you're going to hang around with us for the rest of the hour here? Absolutely. Especially this time.

You're right. You don't have much of a choice one way or the other. So we appreciate your being with us. And I hope everyone who would be interested in that type of a cruise, whether it's going to be teaching.

There's a Bible conference beforehand. We haven't quite nailed down the debate yet. We're trying to get a debate with a Roman Catholic apologist that I would be undertaking. And trying to do some stuff the week beforehand as far as the conference is concerned.

So get a hold of us. Look at the webpage and be a part of what we've got coming up there. That's something that's really exciting. Now last week those of you who were listening in noticed that we began a subject on the topic of the deity of Christ.

And we had a call that came in fairly early on about this point in time actually. From Mr. Rick Stamp who is a Jehovah's Witness apologist. A gentleman that I've had correspondence with a number of times.

Both in our chat room as well as by email. He has posted a lot of the things that we have said back and forth to each other on his own website. Even though I think that website does not exist anymore.

Some of his other material is being posted at another website now. And to make a long story short I was thinking in light of the fact that I had heard the topic of the conversation. And called in on my cell phone from Tucson where I was teaching systematic theology for Golden Gate Seminary.

I was thinking that I want to invite the audience this week. If you can. I realize if you're driving around in a car or something like that that this is difficult to do. And this presentation is not going to be easily done in the sense that you can hop in and out of your car.

And just sort of pick things up as you're going along. But for those who are very serious about the study of the word of God. And serious about interacting with false teachings. With those who would present a false doctrine.

Who would twist and turn the word of God. I felt that last week's program illustrated something that I think would be very important for people to understand. And that is it has been my experience that many Christians have the idea.

That as long as you have certain background. If let's say for example you know the Greek language. Or you know the Hebrew language. If you know things about the background of the New Testament. Or the background of the Old Testament.

Or if you've memorized a lot of scripture. What that means is that in any one particular situation. You're going to be able to demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt for anyone who would be listening.

The error of a particular false doctrine or false teaching. I have experienced this many times. People will call me up and they'll say hey look. I have a friend who is going into Mormonism. Or going into Jehovah's Witnesses or something like that.

I know if he could just sit down with you for just a little while. That he'd be able to see clearly all the errors involved in these particular religious beliefs. And I try to explain to people. That there's much more than just simply the data that you throw out.

Those things, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that in-depth study. That knowing the original languages and background things is unimportant. In fact it's vital. The point that I want to try to illustrate today and communicate to you.

Is that to engage in meaningful apologetics. It requires a balanced understanding of the whole truth of God. Many people get so focused in dealing with one particular area. That they lose balance. And in fact their apologetic is weakened.

Because of the fact that they don't have a balance. In what their own understanding of their theology. And in the studies that they are undertaking. In other words. A person who is more emphasis upon understanding Christian theology.

And applying it. Is the person who will be able to do the best apologetic. While the person who may spend a lot of time dealing with the specifics of one group. Will find that there will be, shall we say, holes.

In their ability to deal with that particular group. And so we have always emphasized. And gentlemen feel free to engage me in any type of conversation here. But I have always emphasized through the years.

And I think Benny you've been with us now. 85, 86. Somewhere around in there. When did you and I go to see Alberto Rivera?

Well it was back in I believe 1983, 84. Well when did the Pope come? When did the Pope visit Phoenix? When was that? Because it was before that. Yes, the Pope was 85, 86.

Okay, so somewhere before that. Anyways, you and I were both much younger back then. Let's put it that way. Probably had much smaller waistlines and things like that back then. I know, speak for yourself James.

Speak for yourself. And Mike, you attended some of my classes many, many years ago. What was the first class that you came into?

I think the first class that I ever attended from Alpha and Omega was actually on Mormonism. It was Rich Pierce. And it was Rich who was teaching. Right. And then suddenly thereafter you covered for him and were teaching the class.

And I was just amazed by, wow, there are actually answers to a lot of these questions I just did not realize. And soon after that I just became, I guess pretty much an addict with regards to studying and learning.

And I sort of cut my apologetic teeth at the Mormon pageant that year. And you were young. You still are young. That's the sad part about the whole thing. When I first met you guys I was 16 years old.

I first went with you guys when I was about 17, 18 years old.

Well, both of you will, I think, attest to the fact that I have said over and over again that I would rather have five people with me in Salt Lake City who know what they believe and can share the gospel than 50 people that can rip and shred Joseph Smith but have nothing positive to give in the place of that false faith that those people had.

That has always been our emphasis, has been upon understanding the Christian faith in such a way that you can share it clearly with those around you. And last week, as Simon was sharing with us, we had just barely started to get into the subject of the presentation of the deity of Christ.

And one of the evidences that was brought forth was the use of a specific phrase in the Gospel of John. Now, immediately I point out that the use of the phrase, Egoi me, I am, in the Gospel of John, is one constituent part of an entire spectrum of evidences that we can derive, not only from the New Testament, but especially in this particular situation, from the Gospel of John itself.

It is not to be understood to exist separately from all these other evidences. It is a part of a presentation that John gives to us. And unfortunately, because there was a phone call and we began to deal with the apologetics issues, we never got a chance really to finish presenting the issue and then in fact respond to the assertions that were made.

And Mike, I believe you've had some contact with some Jehovah's Witnesses this past week, both in our chat channel and by email, that would indicate that we don't just have callers, we just don't have listeners here in the Phoenix area, we have listeners all over the United States, and in fact outside the United States, including people who are Jehovah's Witnesses.

Correct. Actually, because we are going live over the Internet and we do place the recording on the Internet, people can listen to us all the time. And it's very interesting, there are a lot of people who actually listen to us live from California, from England, it's very interesting.

And going into the chat rooms on the IRC, I had a number of conversations with different gentlemen and they brought up this issue and a number of other things, and they brought up the nature of the call and so forth.

And it was very interesting to see how a lot of them misconstrued some of the points that we were making and so forth. I really had an interesting time. But of course, many of them are, and I would have to admit, many of them have studied this issue, they have been preparing for this issue for a long time, and I have to admit that as much learning, as much studying as I've had, I was completely blindsided by certain points.

A thing that we can't be afraid to admit, we have to be honest and say, well, we'll have to do a little more research, I have to study that issue and understand where you're coming from.

And I think, unfortunately, in listening to the program and trying to put myself in the position of the callers, the calls can so quickly elevate to a high level of discussion that a lot of folks in the audience who haven't had a background in dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses and things like that can be completely lost as to what in the world was being discussed, or why what was being discussed was being discussed.

But to attempt to summarize in a short period of time, it was my assertion in a paper that appears on our webpage at aomin .org and appears in edited format in my book, The Forgotten Trinity, that when we look at the Gospel of John, we find the writer John using many ways of communicating to us the grandeur of the person of Christ.

We have the direct use of theos used of him in John 1, 1 and John 20, 28. We have the presentation of his eternal nature that is brought out, I believe, in the prologue of John. The fact that the Word became flesh.

And we have the description of him as the monogamist theos, the unique God, in John 1, 18. One of the other ways that I presented in a chapter called I Am He is found in looking at the following passages directly from the Scriptures.

And I will read these really quickly from the New American Standard Bible. Most people are familiar with these. But beginning in John chapter 8, we have the Lord Jesus using a Greek phrase that in Greek is Ego I Me, which is translated I Am.

And in John 8, 24, for example, Jesus says, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that Ego I Me, I Am He, you will die in your sins. Now, the first thing I want to point out is that in this passage, the phrase Ego I Me is said to be the object of faith.

That is, unless you believe that Ego I Me, you will die in your sins. Now, it is immediately the response of those who do not believe the deity of Christ that these passages are not significant in the sense that all he's saying is unless you believe that I Am Jesus, or I Am the Messiah, or I Am the Christ.

So we'll put that out there immediately and see if that makes any sense as we look at the other passages where this phrase is used. But just keep in your mind, in 8, 24, Jesus says that unless you believe that Ego I Me, you will die in your sins.

So whatever this is, this is an important issue. Because Jesus says to reject or disbelieve this is to result in dying in your sins. And that sounds like a very final and important thing. Now, those who know the context of John 8 know that Jesus is actually here talking to Jews who had believed in him.

And yet by the end of the chapter, what do they do? They pick up stones to stone him. Why? Because in discussing the fact that they really haven't been made free because they have not abided in his word, beginning at verse 56, Jesus says, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad.

So the Jews said to him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham. Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was Ego I Me, before Abraham was born, before Abraham came into existence, Ego I Me, therefore they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Obviously, another extremely important use of the passage, of the phrase Ego I Me, and the meaning here is attached to a time concept. Before Abraham was born, Ego I Me, I am. And there is not in this context a specific predicate expressed, such as the idea of I am the Messiah, or I am the Christ, or something like that.

Instead, the contrast is between Abraham, who comes into existence, and the timeless existence of the one who says, I am. Then one that I remember to this day, and will always remember, with great fondness and thankfulness to God, for the night that I saw this, it's not that I was the first one to do so by any shape or form or imagination, but when it really came home to me, Jesus, in talking at the Lord's Supper to his disciples, beginning in verse 18 of chapter 13, John 13, 18 says,.

And notice the parallel between 824 and 1319. In both of these, you have the phrase Ego I Me as the object of belief, the object of faith, so that you may believe that Ego I Me, I am. And of course, the New American Standard inserts the word He in italics, because there is no expressed predicate.

It is not, I am the light of the world. There are all sorts of uses of Ego I Me in John, where he says, I am the light of the world. Or the other I am sayings, I am the bread of life. This is something that Jesus used often, but here he doesn't apply any type of predicate that would explain I am a certain person.

And then, very significantly, John chapter 18, here at the time of the betrayal of Christ, as the soldiers are coming to arrest him, beginning in verse 3,. So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon him, again, I just have to point out, just stop there for a moment, knowing all things that were coming upon him, what was the context in 13?

I'm telling you these sayings before they come to pass, that when they do, you may believe that Ego I Me, I am. So, knowing all things that were coming upon him, verse 4,. And notice what John does. He's emphasized that Judas is there.

But in verse 6, Now here, at the utterance of the phrase Ego I Me, the men draw back and fall upon the ground. Now, obviously, there's something going on here in John's Gospel. The fact that he would use this phrase in a way that is extremely unusual, the way that he would use it in certain contexts, that he would make it the object of faith, that he would, in 13 .19 and in 18, he uses it in the context of knowing future events, might cause us to go, you know, I wonder if there's something more here than meets the eye.

And anyone who has done serious exegetical work in John, and here's a point that needs to be made. When I mean serious exegetical work in John, I mean the type of exegesis that you have to do to teach and preach all of the Gospel of John within the context of the Church.

And that is the main objection that I have to Jehovah's Witness apologists that are out there, that are writing, that are writing on webpages and things like that. And that is, their studies and their writings are focused primarily upon defending the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

They're not involved in doing the type of pan-canonical or pan -New Testament teaching and preaching that the person must do who is involved in ministry in the Church. And therefore, issues of the background, the style of John, things like that, are lost in the writings that I encounter from Jehovah's Witness apologists on these particular issues.

And so the fact that John frequently draws from the Old Testament is lost to many individuals. And that's what we'll pick up with. We continue on the other side of the break here on The Dividing Line.

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The Deity of Christ in John and the Meaning of “I AM”

And welcome back to Dividing Line, my name is James White. We're talking today about, I think, a very important issue. It's important to you if you are very concerned about God's truth and about responding to those who present a false gospel, a false Christ who would deny the Christian faith.

We need to understand that when we interpret the Scriptures, we need to interpret them both along the lines of Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura, that is, the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone, and then all of Scripture.

And that is, we must see that, for example, the Apostle John frequently draws from the Old Testament witness. He draws concepts and ideas from the Old Testament. It has been well known from the very day that John penned the word that in John chapter 3, when he speaks of being born again, and he talks about being born of water and the Spirit, that anyone who was at that day a believer, who had a Bible in their hands, had what was called the Greek Septuagint.

And the Greek Septuagint, in Exodus 36, uses the exact same type of language to speak of God's work that He was promising to do in His people in what we call the New Covenant. In Jeremiah 31, this also comes out as well.

And so those connections would be naturally made by the original audience. Now, American Christians who don't know the Old Testament very well may not make the connections between the allusions that are provided by New Testament writers and the Old Testament context from which it came, but that's one of the reasons why we need to have teaching, we need to learn, we need to study.

And so in the same vein, when one looks at this phrase, ago I me, one discovers that the phrase is used in the Old Testament. And specifically, and this is where the connection comes out, it is used in contexts that happen to be very relevant to what we've already seen in the Gospel of John.

For example, we looked at John 13, 19, and I mentioned to you, I remember the night very well when I saw the connection that exists here. Remember that in John 13, 19, on the night of his betrayal, the Lord Jesus says, I'm going to tell you what's coming to pass so that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am, that ago I me.

Now, obviously, he's not telling to his disciples that you may believe that I'm Jesus, or that you may believe that I'm the Messiah, because they already believe that. They already understood that. There's something more here, and it's in the context of the prediction of future events.

And interestingly enough, anyone familiar with the Old Testament knows, in the book of Isaiah, God there demonstrates the foolishness of idolatry, and demonstrates his own perfection as God, in what's called the trial of the false gods in Isaiah 40 -48, where he basically, in using sarcasm, says, bring forth your gods, and let's put them on trial here, let's ask them some questions.

And the single main proof that Jehovah God presents that demonstrates that he alone is God, and all the idols of the people are not true gods, is the fact that he is the creator, and therefore he knows both the past and the future.

The false gods cannot tell us what the future is about, because they're not the true creator. And so it is in that context that we have a verse that, ironically, is the very verse from which Jehovah's Witnesses derive their name, Isaiah 43 -10.

You are my witnesses, declares Yahweh, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me, and understand that, and in the Hebrew it is Anahu, but in the Greek Septuagint, which would have been the translation that the original readers of the Gospel of John would have been reading themselves, it says, and understand that, Ego, I, me.

The Hebrew is Anahu. Before me there was no God formed, there will be none after me. Now here, in the passage, and you read through the whole section of Isaiah, and over and over and over again God says, I am God, there is no other, I am the one who's created, I am the one who knows the past, the present, and the future.

And the ridicule of the false gods is found there. In this very passage, you find more than once the use of this phrase, Ego, I, me, in the Septuagint, and interestingly enough, just as in John 8 -24, it is the object of belief.

The object of belief, so that you may know and believe me, and understand that, Ego, I, me. Now, the point is, if John, in all the rest of his Gospel, draws from the Old Testament, he draws allusions, he draws words, he draws phraseology, so that his readers who know the Old Testament will automatically hear what he's saying, and he'll understand, I am the light of the world, I am the bread of life, the bread of life discussion going back to the Old Testament, and the discussion of the manna from heaven, and all these other things, since John's doing it there, isn't it very, very obvious that in this type of context, when John, in John 8 -24, and in 8 -58, when the Jews pick up stones to stone Jesus after he says these words, and in 13 -19 with his apostles, and finally in 18 -5 and 6, where by saying Ego, I, me, the men fall back upon the ground, is it not obvious that these passages need to be taken together and seen to be a device the Apostle John is using to communicate to us the truth of the Deity of Christ?