Outlasting the Gay Revolution: Michael Brown’s New Book (Plus Some Fun Interaction Toward the End)

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line, it is Thursday afternoon and we have a lot to get to today.

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We have a special guest, as I have announced, and that is

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Dr. Michael Brown, author of a new book called Outlasting the Gay Revolution, Eight Principles for Long -Term

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Cultural Change. Michael, I must say, this was an amazing way of announcing your conversion to post -millennialism.

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Hey, listen, I have an eschatology of victory, I do, I'm a pre -millennialist, but I believe in the triumph of the kingdom of God, and you know the book is full of optimism and hope and a multi -generational vision, so hey, have at it, man.

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It is! I was, you know, you sent it to me and I listened to it a few months ago and I'm riding along going, all right, what happened, because this is, you know,

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I like the way you just put it, multi, how did you just put that, multi -generational vision?

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Multi -generational vision, yeah, multi -generational vision, absolutely. You know, I talk about the Hezekiah syndrome in Isaiah 39, where Isaiah gives him a dire prophecy about his children, grandchildren going into exile, and some of them being eunuchs, and he says, well, praise the

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Lord, it's a good word, because there's going to be peace and safety in my day, and you know, the Church of America, so many believing in the imminent return of Jesus have been paralyzed, because we're out of here any minute.

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We can't plan long -term, we can't think long -term, we're out of here any minute, so those who have different ideologies don't think like that, and they've won the day.

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That's true, there's no two ways about it. Now, when did you start working on this, because, you know, let's be honest, long before the

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Supreme Court debacle, you know, I was given it 90%, 10 % that it was going to go the wrong direction, we all saw it coming, we had been talking about this for quite some time.

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So when did you go, all right, let's be prepared, and let's put together something along these lines?

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Yeah, well, what happened was, really, when I wrote A Queer Thing Happened to America, and it came out in 2011, of course, you'd gone through that book, and we discussed it on the dividing line.

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When the book came out, I knew at some point I needed to put out kind of a condensed version, and you and I know that every month you could write a new book on what's happening in the society and in the church, but about, oh, a year and a half ago,

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I felt I can't just put out kind of a shortened version, I need to give hope, I need to give courage,

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I need to give practical strategy. So that's when I started really working on the book, and I finished the book before the

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Supreme Court decision, but with the full assumption that it was going that way, and that even, to be honest, 10 years ago, 11 years ago, when

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I first got burdened about the subject, I knew in the natural we lost this generation, that things had gone too far in the culture in so many ways, in children's education, in the media, in the compromised church, that we had already lost the battle for this generation, but God.

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So it's not Lazarus needs an aspirin, Lazarus needs to be raised from the dead. So I've started, number one, my assumption's been we've lost in the natural, but God, by His grace, can turn the tide.

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In fact, since you got that advanced copy, we changed the subtitle, and the subtitle is where homosexual activism is really going and how to turn the tide.

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And look, God's ways are ways of life, and homosexual activism is not going to produce the long -term fruit that it desires.

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All right, now, you're exactly right. It's part of the culture of death. It's amazing the parallels

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I see in the behavior of people in light of the Planned Parenthood videos.

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There really is a direct spiritual connection between what we're seeing there and what we're seeing in the homosexual movement and things like that.

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So you've put together, well, first, you did sort of update in the sense of what's going on in the country in regards to the

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Houston mayor and stuff like that to get people to the point of recognizing really how difficult the situation is.

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So you did sort of the day the line was crossed, I think, was focused primarily upon that and things like that.

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But then you've got eight principles and you started with never compromise your convictions.

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And my recollection is you really sort of start there with where we are now and then sort of start trying to move from that to, as you say, giving hope in the rest of the principles as you lay them out, sort of like there's an order to them, in essence.

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Yeah, there is an order to them. And it does start with never compromise your convictions. Look, right now, as we talk,

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Christians in the Middle East are watching their kids be beheaded by ISIS, suffering unspeakable tragedy, things we can't even imagine.

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And here in America, we get upset when someone unfriends us on Facebook or when they post a nasty comment.

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We need to grow up. This is a real deep spiritual battle. The homosexual community, they're not our enemies.

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Satan is our enemy. We want to to preach the good news and win people to the

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Lord. But we're in a real spiritual battle. We need to wake up to reality. I grieve just as you do when a well -known

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Christian leader that comes out or a professing Christian comes out and now they they compromise on their views.

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They cave in and they say, well, you know, if it's loving, who am I to stand against it? And these two men love each other.

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I want to bless that. And love does no harm to its neighbor. They misuse the scripture. It grieves me. But at the same time,

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I'm glad to see it. Let the separation come. Let's find out who has spiritual backbone and doesn't.

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Let's find out who's a political preacher and who's got a prophetic heart to stand for truth no matter what.

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Let's find out who's based in their theology on emotion and who's based in their theology on experience.

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So we may lose our jobs. We may lose our tax exemption. We may go to jail, a small price to pay for doing what's right.

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But throughout the book, and it's it's it's not quite up to the minute because the book has to be written and published, but it is so up to date with example after example.

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One of the constant themes of the book is that homosexual activism will defeat itself.

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It has within it the seeds of self -destruction. So in that first chapter, I also lay out how the bullying will backfire.

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A New York Post article this week by someone who is in support of, quote, gay marriage all for it, says, but you shouldn't force these

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Christian bakers to bake your cakes. You were the the ones who were bullied. Now you have become the bullies.

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And as this becomes an increasingly bullying movement, the bullying will backfire.

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And in that sense, the devil overplays his hand. Now, I've heard you say that many times.

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Let me be the the Scottish wet blanket for a moment. Yeah, you would think.

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In a normal situation where people are analyzing things in a logical or rational way that people would be seeing these things.

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But one of the things that concerns me again is this principle that Paul lays out in Second Thessalonians two.

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If you refuse to love the truth, you'll be caused to love a lie. And we are seeing people we've seen

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Supreme Court justices absolutely abandon all semblance of logical and rational thought with a smile on their face.

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And and with the absolute assurance that they are actually doing the right thing and they're thinking clearly and so on and so forth.

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Is there is where where in your thesis is there a concept of judgment upon a nation that has had so much light and spits in the face of God and says,

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I will I won't have it is. Where do you where do you see that fitting in or do you see it fitting in?

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Oh, we may crash and burn before we wake up. I absolutely think that we have so so much to the flesh, so much to destruction.

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Just abortion alone. Put aside everything else. Put aside the largest sexual anarchy of the culture.

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Put aside human trafficking. Put aside the greed and the materialism and all these other things or attack on marriage, just abortion and the war on the unborn is sufficient.

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We may hit bottom before awakening comes. But when I speak and I have referred to your comment from Second Thessalonians two, because we talk about people drinking the

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Kool -Aid. Yeah. You know, my son -in -law, Jimmy, pulled something up on his phone a couple of weeks ago and I hear a man's voice and I look over and I see a man in a dress.

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And I realize it's Bruce Jenner speaking at ESPYs. And he said, it's like it's a joke. And everybody went along with it that you think, no, no, no.

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Someone's going to say, stop, stop the music here. But people keep drinking the Kool -Aid. And yes, it is that spiritual principle of God giving people over to delusion.

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But I see two things. When I say the bullying will backfire, it has the effect of waking up believers, often opposition, a verbal persecution, legal persecution, often these things that are meant to hurt us, wake us up.

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Because so many Americans have responded to kind of a country club Christianity as opposed to a call to training camp.

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There are consumers more than disciples. This is starting to wake people up. This is starting to have people realize they've been compromised.

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They've been playing games. And there is a cost involved in following Jesus. So at the very least, it happens with us.

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But I also believe that there are still reasonable people. There are still people of good will who don't like what's happening and who realize this is going too far.

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And you even have gay activist leaders who say, we didn't we didn't plan. No, no, we don't like this.

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We don't agree with it. There's got to be a way where we can all kind of coexist. And then others are getting even more rabid.

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So it may get much, much worse. It may take much more extreme measures against Christians.

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But I believe it's going to lead also to awakening within the church as at least a remnant, if not more, rises up and starts to cry out to God and then others in the society will no longer be able to side with the homosexual activists because they're not the ones being bullied, they have become the bullies.

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But all this to me is in the midst of great sobriety for the very, very reasons you mentioned.

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Now, one of the chapters that really stuck with me was sexual purity, Trump's sexual anarchy.

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Now, being able to document sexual anarchy, Dr. Moeller has

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I don't know that he coined the phrase, but he speaks often of the now enshrined supremacy of erotic freedom that this is this is obviously what's trumping religious freedom.

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It's connected with this concept of man is an autonomous being.

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He's not created. He doesn't have to worry about what God has to say about anything anymore, et cetera, et cetera. But it's easy now to talk about sexual anarchy because what's happening in the schools.

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I mean, you certainly have collected a lot of examples of these both between a queer thing happened in America.

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And and you probably could write ten more chapters just since that time to put in here.

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But what do you mean that sexual purity, Trump's sexual anarchy in light of the fact that anyone who speaks of sexual purity today is going to be pilloried is is going to I mean, you know, it's going to happen on CNN or almost any media if you actually talk about sexual purity.

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So what what do you mean by that? Yeah, first, let me explain the sexual anarchy concept.

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We often hear that Americans are more accepting of homosexuality today because everybody knows someone who's gay and their family member or friend or something and through the media.

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And therefore, they're much more tolerant and accepting. Now, I'm sure that's some of it. Hey, you know, my neighbors, they're lesbian couple really sweet and, you know, why should

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I demonize them? Why can't they, quote, marry and all that? I know that's part of it. But what's undeniable is this, the embrace of homosexuality in our culture and the celebration of homosexual marriage in our culture is not due so much to tolerance for being more tolerant, but it is due primarily to us being a less moral society.

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And I have charts and graphs, Gallup polls and things like that where you look, those who overwhelmingly approve homosexual practice also overwhelmingly approve cohabitation of people having kids together out of wedlock as well as as well as living together of wedlock, have much less of an issue with divorce.

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Their numbers approving polygamy have doubled from like seven percent to 14 percent in just a couple of years.

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You look at almost every single category and you realize, hey, the same media that is celebrating homosexuality and has for years now has also been celebrating what polygamy shows like Big Love and Sister Wives and My Five Wives and also polyamory married and dating and now swinger shows where this is the big thing where you're married and having affairs and everybody does it and they're just, you know, swapping, you know, spouses for the night and everybody does it.

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And then I think they're like six or seven new nude reality shows. And then you have teen mom shows.

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This is all happening. This is all part of the spirit of the age. So you've got to realize that the celebration of homosexuality, the normalization of homosexuality is part of a larger culture of sexual decadence, sexual anarchy.

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Now, where does that lead long term? Does it lead to healthy marriages and families?

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Does it lead to healthy societies? The answer is an obvious no. What leads to more

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STDs? What leads to more fractured relationships? What leads to more kids out of wedlock and kids raised without a mom or a dad and on and on and on?

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And you look at the stats associated with that. Then you look at sexual purity and you look at what happens.

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Isn't it fascinating? Here's a young man, young woman. They meet. They keep themselves sexually pure.

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They get married. They love each other. They have an active sex life. They could be married 50 years and live like that.

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They'll never get a sexually transmitted disease. But they do the same thing with someone they're not married to.

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They may get an STD and it may be a deadly one. What's the point?

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Over the course of society, things just play themselves out a certain way because God's ways are ways of life.

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When God tells us not to do certain things, it's not because he's restricting us because he's mean spirit.

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It wants to steal our fun. Yes, it's because we're his servants. We have to obey him. But his ways are also ways of life where sexual anarchy leads to death.

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There's a reason that the hippie movement, everybody living on communes only lasted so long because it just didn't work.

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So my encouragement is if we get our own houses in order, if we get pornography out of the church, if we get our own houses in order and live in godliness and honesty before the

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Lord with his help and grace, as the years go on, we will find ourselves thriving.

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Whereas those who give themselves to sexual anarchy are in a self -destructive cycle. So sexual purity.

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Results in life, sexual anarchy results in death.

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But again, we go back to. As long as you have a culture that's in love with death, then they're not going to be concerned about that type of thing.

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They I mean, we're seeing people today that don't even seem to realize that their their entire worldview will result inevitably in the destruction of their culture.

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And they're so shortsighted that they can't see past their own generation.

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I mean, they don't they didn't care if there is a next generation as long as they've got their iPods and their, you know, their medical benefits and, you know, can have an easy death at the end.

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And I mean, they're really that shortsighted. There would have to be, as you say, a crash and burn so that people can see that before there's a turning away from that.

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I mean, I lead the pastoral prayers at our church. We pray for repentance. We pray that that God would have mercy upon our nation.

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That's all dependent upon this. I know that sexual purity is extremely attractive to a person who wants life, but man, all of this is really going to be dependent upon the grace of God bringing that kind of repentant attitude to our society.

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Now, here's the other thing. And of course, we're dependent on God. We're crying out to God, and that is what fuels my fire.

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I'm filled with hope. I believe that the tide will turn if Jesus does not come back first.

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I genuinely believe that the tide will have to turn. Otherwise, society itself, for all these reasons,

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I'm just saying because of gay activism, but for many other reasons, will completely collapse and America will be no more.

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I mean, look, around the world, there's a crisis in many countries now because the birth rates are too low and you need on average for a woman in her years of being able to have children to have on average 2 .1

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children for society to continue, otherwise it will die out. It will not have a support system for the next generation and will die out.

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We have country after country in Europe and Russia, Japan, with rates of 1 .2,

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1 .6 children per woman, and they're unsustainable.

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So what I see also, though, in a multigenerational vision and God could turn the tide more quickly.

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That's my seventh principle, a factor in the God factor. Revival, awakening can come, but otherwise long term, even if others in the society don't get it right and don't wake up, they will diminish in number and in influence while the godly will thrive.

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The godly will put more emphasis on family. The godly will put more emphasis on principles of life.

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Just like the pro abortion movement is self -defeating and self -destructive and family numbers are going to be smaller and the next generation is going to be smaller.

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Whereas those who love life and who welcome children and who esteem children and who are willing to build life around children instead of just having them as a convenience that fits in somewhere, they'll thrive.

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So that's what I'm seeing, that you can just kind of look at a field and lots of the parts of the field are dying out, but others are verdant and green and growing.

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That should be us, the righteous by God's grace. Now, your fourth principle is refuse to redefine marriage.

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Isn't that done? Oh, for the... OK, never was that done by us.

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I'm still going to put the word marriage in scare quotes when I'm writing about it, when it pertains to two men or two women.

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I'm still going to say, quote, marriage or so -called when I referred to it. So, number one, for us, we refuse, whether we're bakers, whether we're candlestick makers, whether we're photographers, whether we're pastors, that we honor all human beings as fellow human beings.

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We treat other people with civility and kindness. We love our neighbors ourselves, but we refuse to define it as marriage.

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If again, if it costs me a job, if it costs me a promotion, if it costs me a ministry, we have to do what's right.

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But not only that, I believe that here, too, gay activism has within itself the seeds of self -destruction.

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Once marriage is not the unique union of one man and one woman together for life with the biological complementarity, the emotional complementarity, the societal complementarity that they bring, and of course, the ability, the natural ability to reproduce and then join a child to a mother and father.

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Once it's no longer the union of a man and a woman, there is no legitimate reason to limit it to two people.

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And there's no legitimate reason to limit it to all kinds of other arrangements or to say you can't have those.

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I've done debates, I've published articles, I've put it on radio. Someone tell me why only two people, if it's not the union of a man and woman.

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I've yet to receive a cogent answer. And in the book, In Outlasting the Gay Revolution, I give example after example after example of either court cases or people saying, why can't we do this?

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Look, here's the mantra, love wins, marriage equality for all.

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I have the right to marry the one I love. How are you going to limit that to two people? There's some people who've now married themselves.

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Why not? They're polyamorous saying, what about us? Are we second class citizens? Every point that Justice Kennedy made in his majority opinion in the dreadful decision of June 26, every argument he made could be used by polygamists who filed the case the very next day, could be used by polyamorous.

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And look, I did an online debate. It was a website. I don't think it exists anymore.

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A new website seemed to be very gay, activist friendly, very, very youth oriented. They called me and they said, hey, you know, it's the hot subject now.

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It's consensual adult incest. Should it be legal? I said, I'm quite aware it's a hot subject right now.

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And I document that in Outlasting the Gay Revolution with the media celebration of adult incestuous relationships.

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They said, would you do an online debate? We ask you and others a series of questions and then we just post your responses.

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I said, you bet. So they had five people. I was one of five, some older like me, some younger, some academics, some just more activists.

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They asked all five of us, should consensual adult incest be legal? I was the only one that said no.

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Everyone else said yes. Two of them said we don't like it, but the government cannot restrict loving relations.

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And the other is like, hey, have at it. So that's that's where we're at today. It is amazing.

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Loving yourself. Yeah, we sort of need a biblical definition of love, I suppose. But obviously, you know, when you say refuse to redefine marriage, that's going to be that could prove to be very, very costly.

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You talked about losing a ministry. Churches are going to be facing these things.

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These are things we've been talking about a lot. The fifth is celebrate gender distinctions.

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You old fogey, you. What do you mean, gender distinctions? It's all just one spectrum of of fluidity, isn't it?

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Yeah, well, again, here's something that is unsustainable. One of the principles in the book is if gay activism continues to go on this path, it becomes completely unsustainable.

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You're talking about a world with gender neutral bathrooms and gender neutral locker rooms.

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You're talking about a world where perception is reality. And again, an outlast in the gay revolution.

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You went through the book, you know, example after example. I'm not talking about what's coming tomorrow. I'm talking about young people, all cited, documented in the book.

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I talk about young people who are rebelling against the gender binary and they say, don't call me male or female.

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Call me tractor. There are people who have what's called species dysphoria, not just gender dysphoria, but now species dysphoria where they are convinced they are part wolf or they are part bumblebee or they are part jackal and they are suicidal because no one understands them in school and then they find out there are, according to them, several hundred thousand in America, just like them.

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They call themselves Therian or other kin. Some believe they're part alien. Hey, why not?

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If perception is reality, if Bruce Jenner is Caitlyn Jenner, then Rachel Dolezal is black.

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James, I am declaring today that I am a black female Viking and to the core of my being,

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I believe it. And if you don't accept it, then you are transphobic and xenophobic and whatever else it is now.

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Now, Michael, Michael, the reason I don't accept that is because you made one major error there. Everybody knows who was born in Minneapolis, as I was, that the

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Vikings have gone to the Super Bowl four times and lost every time. So you would not choose to be a Viking by making a choice.

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I wasn't thinking sports. I was thinking ethnic. But thanks for thanks for catching me in that. But listen, you know, having read the book, you know, having talked to me behind the scenes that my heart breaks for people who struggle,

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I can't imagine what is going on in someone to get

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Bruce Jenner to do what he did. I can't imagine the struggles parents have when their three year old kid insists, you know, the boy insists he's a girl and these struggles.

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But basically, we need to understand that gender distinctions are what makes the world go round.

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It's that simple. And when you start to deny biology, I talk to people in Charlotte that were there was a rally going on when there was going to be a big vote about this transgender bill or bathroom bill.

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I talked to one woman. I said to her, if I believe I'm a horse, can I use the stable? She said, yes, you're not hurting anyone.

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I talked to a to a black gentleman and I pressed if I believe I'm black, am I black?

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Finally, he said, yes, if you believe it, you are. Hang on. It gets worse. He said to me what they do in the hospitals, determining gender by biology and chromosomes is so primitive.

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Gender, they say, is not what's between your legs. It's what's between your ears. So what about people with what's called body identity, integrity disorder?

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Dan Savage is now on record saying it's their own body. They can do what they want because he's got to be consistent.

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If you can mutilate what's between the legs, you can mutilate one of the legs. If you are convinced that you need to be amputated or an amputee to be whole, then you should have the right.

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Your body, your choice. And Dan Savage, at least, is consistent. And when when he's talking about marriage, he's consistent with that, too.

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He says we practice what's being called being monogamous. He and his partner, as of a few years ago, or his, quote, husband, as of a few years ago, they said they had at least nine different threesomes since they have been, quote, married.

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And he says that's why they're happy, because they're not monogamous, they're monogamous. I quote gay activists in Outlasting the

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Gay Revolution who say, oh, yeah, marriage is going to change now with our influence. We're going to show you how to really do it.

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Your old monogamous ways are are they're antique. That's why you have all these problems. We're going to show you the way to do it.

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So, again, these things can only go so far. And we understand that not every boy is going to play football and not every girl is going to.

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So we understand that. But we celebrate gender distinctions. Otherwise, you have complete social madness.

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And I agree, people are drinking the Kool -Aid. There's a spirit of delusion. You think they're going to see this and they don't see it.

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But it can only go so far before it crashes and burns. Oh, yeah, there's a question that it leads directly to destruction.

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It's just, you know, the hopeful part of me recognizes that the point of contact that we have is that we're made in the image of God and a person that's made the image of God recognizes these things, understands these things.

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I mean, there is a act of suppression going on. But my goodness, the the depth of that suppression and the power of that suppression and the fulfilling of Romans one we're seeing going on around us is is truly something that I suppose there was a time when

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I I I would have said, well, maybe down the road it could happen. It's just it just is so fast.

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It has just been it's just startling, I think, to most of us, certainly in our generation, that that it could happen this quickly.

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Yeah, I mean, I knew many of these things were going to happen. Wrote about them as you did. We sensed they were coming.

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It seemed obvious. But then the rapidity of it, the degree to which the bottom just fell out.

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It is stunning. Look, I have on page one eleven of the final copy.

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I know you have an advanced copy, so maybe a different page under the section defining marriage and refuse to redefine marriage.

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I have a potential wedding vows. Why? Why not? So here's the man speaking.

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I take you as my wife, but probably not for life. I take you as my own, but not just you alone.

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I pledge myself to you and perhaps to others, too. I take you as my bride, although your name is

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Clyde. I mean, why not? Because as things go on, look, you live together outside of wedlock.

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No problem. Right. You have kids together outside of wedlock. No problem. You get married. You lose interest in a year.

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You get divorced. So what is marriage anyway, then put aside the homosexual issues?

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What is marriage anyway? It no longer has any meaning. Now you add in it's a combination of two men or two women.

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You add that possibility in and then that means it just can't be limited to two logically anymore.

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The thing becomes utterly meaningless, which is why we see it in the Scandinavian countries, other countries that have redefined marriage, that marriage in general is just of much less interest to people, more and more people living together out of wedlock, and then that brings greater instability.

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And then kids are raised in greater instability. I have some quotes from the Anonymous Us website and from some surveys about kids from anonymous sperm donors.

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And it is heartbreaking to read when you realize these kids, they have no idea who their dad is and they meet someone that looks like them.

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And they think, am I related? Could there be incest? There are even stats I have in the book from Australia where they're in a relatively small community with a number of lesbians that they basically all use the same sperm bank.

31:51

Now they're realizing that their kids are all related. Yeah. And the kids start to have relationships.

31:56

It's going to be incestuous. It's not what God intended and it can't be sustained long term.

32:02

Yeah, it definitely leads to destruction. And by the way, the the wedding vow that you provided there, not only did we almost lose my technical guy in the other room when you went through that, but when

32:15

I heard that I was riding in Dallas, Texas. I remember where I was when

32:22

I heard that. And it almost caused me to crash. So I you got to keep these things in mind that you don't know where people will be reading your book and the possible effects that might have.

32:35

I'll have to remember you may be on a mountain around a sharp turn. But look, in England right now, overthrowing the

32:42

Oxford English Dictionary and centuries of English usage in the same six month marriage, the husband can be a woman.

32:50

Yeah. The the the the wife can be a man. California law, they were pushing for a bill that would throw out distinctions on the birth certificate.

33:01

But hang on, you have two lesbians. One is the mother. One is the father. You have you have two homosexual men.

33:08

One is the mother. One is the father. If they're bringing somehow bringing a kid into the world and that's how they want the birth certificate filled out.

33:15

So you have to always think this through to say it right, because everything in me wants to say it the other way. But you now have a situation where you can have male wives and female husbands and male mothers and female fathers.

33:29

So words no longer have meaning. N .T. Wright talks about the danger of redefining terms, talks about Nazi Germany, how certain people were no longer human.

33:40

Right. So I don't know what people are thinking. I mean, this is this is the thought process. Billy's a nice kid.

33:47

He's gay. Billy gets picked on at school. Why can't Billy marry Bobby?

33:53

Right. We got to we got to think a little bit more deeply than that. Well, the problem is it's not we're not thinking the confusion of emotion with thought is the very essence of the millennial generation, unfortunately.

34:07

And that's that's the problem. Keep propagating the truth until the lies are dispelled.

34:16

I get the principle, but obviously, again, I keep seeing the absolute dependence of all of this upon supernatural forces, because,

34:27

I mean, we're sort of in a situation where we look back. The truth was being proclaimed with clarity for so long.

34:35

And this society is just doing the I'm going to cover my ears, cover my eyes. I'm running from this as fast as I possibly can.

34:43

Today, we're seeing every effort to speak the truth suppressed and mocked.

34:50

What you're saying is there will eventually be there. It has to be no.

34:56

No culture can possibly survive multi generational love with death and lying, and therefore you remain faithful because it may be the remnants to use

35:11

Old Testament language. It may be the remnant that gets to see it. It may not be you and I. It may not be our children or our grandchildren.

35:19

But this rebellion against God cannot last. Yeah, look,

35:25

I am to the core of my being a believer and a believer in God's supernatural power and intervention and a believer in his principles, ultimately triumphing.

35:36

Proverbs 21 30 says there's no wisdom or counsel against the Lord. Second Corinthians 13 eight.

35:41

There's nothing that we can do against the truth, only for the truth. So look, look at how communism seems so utterly daunting.

35:51

Just a generation back. And communism is going to take over the world. And and and the lies upon which it was built seemed impregnable.

36:00

Well, now it's collapsed in so many ways. Even a massive country like communist China is so influenced by by capitalism and and other things that are that are making it thrive.

36:10

So look, I've written this book, believing God can use it to help spark a moral and cultural revolution in the natural.

36:17

That's completely absurd. But I believe God, although I'm not a Calvinist, I absolutely have the

36:24

Calvinist mentality and the sovereignty of God and my trust is in God's power to bring about change, not not man's ability to produce it.

36:33

So I wouldn't have written this book and put it out unless I believe it's going to make an impact and plant seeds for the long term and who knows what's going to happen in the short term.

36:43

But but I go through different major lies that are foundational for the gay revolution.

36:50

The one in 10 lie that one person in 10 is homosexual. Young people think it's it's like one in three.

36:57

That's how effective the media bombardment has been. Major, major survey in America, major survey in England, both put the number at one point six percent in the last year and now one from Australia adding in bisexual.

37:10

They put it at one point eight percent. If you add in bisexual to the American survey puts in about two point five percent, so one in 40 or one in 50 people as opposed to one in 10.

37:21

The more that's realized, the weaker the argument is. What when the whole idea of gay is the new black and one thing after another.

37:30

We've seen what's happened with Planned Parenthood. We've seen how these sting videos in just a matter of weeks have done more to turn national sentiment and political sentiment against Planned Parenthood than years and years and years of hard pro -life work.

37:48

So I don't know how the truth gets out other other than us disseminating it. But I'm going to keep getting it out, believing that one way or another in the midst of the mass deception in the world, in the midst of people drinking the

38:01

Kool -Aid and the strong delusion and people loving darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil.

38:06

That ultimately truth triumphs. The John one five principle that the light shines in darkness and the darkness doesn't overcome it.

38:14

If you translate the Greek like that, right, that that's what I'm believing. And even for us, for our own sanity, we need to keep speaking it because you just I've had plenty of preachers and pastors say,

38:25

I know we're right, but I get tired. I get worn out. One of the major purposes of this book is to instill hope and courage.

38:31

And if I could just make a friendly request from your great listening audience, the book is now available on Amazon.

38:39

The Kindle version comes out September 8th. It was supposed to launch September 8th, but somehow copies got in first.

38:44

So it's already out on Amazon. There's a couple of great reviews from people who actually read it. And then the typical nasty review from someone that doesn't like me who didn't read it.

38:53

But soon enough, we're going to attract a lot of negative attention.

38:58

And I just asked your listeners, once you get the book, take the moment to write a review, just write an honest review.

39:04

I'm not saying post a false good review. But when you get if you like the book, write an honest review because we're going to get confronted with the other stuff.

39:13

But I've even found that that gets exposed. And I've just said to my folks on Facebook sometimes, hey, check out this latest review.

39:19

What do you think? And you go back and it's got like one person out of 150 thinks it's helpful.

39:24

So there's a way to expose things if we work together. Right. Yeah, I've looked at some of those.

39:30

And at least some of them are actually honest. I have to say I didn't even need to read this book. A bigot like you, a bigot like you who needs to read your books.

39:39

Exactly. They'll say it sometime. Oh, yeah. They'll just come straight out and say it. And don't think anybody will notice it.

39:45

All right. Be determined to write the last chapter of the book. What? Now, I guess

39:51

I think it's sort of funny that you're writing the last chapter of the book and use that title personally. But what do you mean by that?

39:59

Yeah, well, again, that's having the multigenerational vision. The chapter before it, factor in the

40:04

God factor, talks about awakenings in American history, talks about unexpected things that happened.

40:09

And lo and behold, here's the change. But factor in excuse me, be determined to write the last chapter of the book is,

40:16

OK, things are going totally negatively now on every front. We've lost.

40:22

We've lost in the public opinion. We've lost in political battle. We've lost in the Supreme Court. We've lost in the media.

40:28

We've lost in the schools. So throw in the towel, capitulate, lick your wounds, go on to the next battle.

40:35

No, no, no. We're still going to stand for what's right, even if we don't see change. And our determination is this.

40:41

We don't back down. We don't compromise. We don't change our ways. If the whole society hates us, we continue to honor the

40:49

Lord, do what's right, stand for what's right. Because ultimately, we plan to see the Lord face to face one day.

40:55

Ultimately, whatever our theology is, we agree that there will be the complete and total triumph of the kingdom of God.

41:02

So if anyone should have the long term vision, if anyone should have the vision to stand through a multigenerational way, it's us.

41:11

And I point to the example of Mordecai in the book. It's striking that Haman, even though everyone bowed down to him, he was not happy because this one

41:21

Jew would not bow down. And so he wanted to wipe out all the Jews in his murderous jealousy and anger.

41:27

Now, gay activists are not trying to murder us and wipe us out, but they want us to capitulate.

41:33

In other words, they're not satisfied that the Supreme Court ruled what it ruled because we are still legal bigots with tax exemption.

41:41

Right. We can still say no to performing a same sex wedding. And I believe that they will have that same attitude towards us, which is that Mordecai must bow and that they will not be happy until the church capitulates.

41:56

They knew beginning in the late 60s, the two main obstacles were the psychiatric profession, the psychological profession and the church.

42:04

That the former said this is a sickness. The latter said this is a sin. When those obstacles are conquered, there are no more obstacles to conquer.

42:11

So that means that we are now the primary target of gay activism, which is to change views within the church or to get others to capitulate, lose tax exemption, be silenced.

42:23

And I'm here to proclaim Mordecai is not going to bow. And ultimately,

42:29

God will back Mordecai for not bowing. Right. Well, you know, my advice to everyone has always been, you know, the scripture says that we we want to do what is pleasing to the

42:41

Lord. And that sounds so simple, but it's incredibly profound because it reorients what our perspective is and reorients what should be pleasing to us as well.

42:55

We're not going to be pleasing to this world, certainly not in its continued state of rebellion. And we should not seek to be pleasing to this world.

43:03

And that's what really is concerning me, is that there are so many in the church that are seeking that. They think that that's showing love to the to the world is to please the world.

43:12

Well, when it comes to the world and its rebellion, that's that's not a possibility. And so you're talking about continued faithfulness, but it's it's faithfulness that is costly.

43:22

It's faithfulness that requires, well, crucifying ourselves and, you know, taking up our cross and denying ourselves and so on and so forth.

43:32

So it's a it's a costly thing. And so it's encouraging, but it's really only encouraging to the person who really desires to be a disciple of Christ and to follow him fully.

43:43

Yeah, absolutely. The first review I saw on Amazon was from a reader who said, warning, this book will change your life.

43:51

And then he said that this first nonfiction book he read in the book was in one sitting or in one night he read the whole book through.

43:57

And he said, look, I confess, I confess that I was gloomy after the Supreme Court decision, kind of like we lost it's over.

44:03

So reading the book gave him fresh faith and hope and courage. But obviously, he's willing to swim against the tide.

44:09

Obviously, he's willing to go against the grain. I have the joy of going to India. God willing, December will be my 23rd trip in 23 years to India.

44:18

And the people we work with there, they've planted more than 7000 churches in tribal areas. I've literally washed the feet of martyrs, widows there and prayed over people who are going back to their probable death.

44:30

And they do it with joy because it's for it's for the gospel. We had to bury one of the students at our own ministry school who was martyred by Al Qaeda terrorists three and a half years ago, and we still have workers in areas where the

44:42

American embassy has left. And our guys are the only Westerners left still sharing the gospel because they have an open door to do it because they understand it's it's by life or by death.

44:53

So this is not some exceptional thing we're asking people to do here. We're simply saying, hey, be disciples.

45:00

You know, church history far better than I do, James. You can point to those who stood strong. And a lot of times it wasn't so much against the world.

45:08

It was against a compromised, backslidden church. And it was a doctrinal issue that they had to stand for and they wouldn't bow down.

45:16

So all we're saying is just be a regular disciple and you'll be blessed as you do.

45:22

Even if you lose everything in this world, you'll be blessed as you do. And ultimately, we're going to stand before God. And on that day, all of our excuses are going to melt away in a moment of time when we look him in the eye, so to say.

45:35

What will we have to say for our cowardice? What will we have to say for our compromise? What we have to say for our man pleasing attitude.

45:41

It's not going to fly on that day. Live today in such a way that you won't have any regret when tomorrow comes.

45:48

Outlasting the Gay Revolution snuck up on you, evidently, got out before you were expecting it to.

45:55

But as you said, the Kindle version, I think you said September 8th? Yep, September 8th.

46:00

And the hardcover is already available. And like I said, on Amazon, we already had our first three reviews with the nasty one from a non -reader.

46:09

You know, the funny thing, I knew the guy's name because I reached out to him. He's a professing gay Christian.

46:14

I said, tell you what? You gather a bunch of your friends together who all say they're gay

46:20

Christians. I want to sit with you. I want you to tell me your stories and I won't respond.

46:26

I just want to sit with you one night and I want you to tell me how you feel about me and I want you to tell me your own stories, why you claim to be believers, how you've reconciled things in your own lives.

46:37

I just want to listen to you and I won't respond. And as a result, I get bashed.

46:43

But what else do we expect? Well, yeah, I've I've heard some of the folks that have called the program, too.

46:50

So, yeah, it's it's fascinating. All right. So thank you very much for the effort you've put into this.

46:58

Now, you and I have sort of established a relationship where we can sort of model how to disagree about things.

47:10

Yeah. And you've seen them. I've seen so many people in Twitter and Facebook saying,

47:16

I just I love how you guys can disagree about stuff without ripping each other's lips off and so on and so forth.

47:23

And so I want to try to clear the air on two completely different issues.

47:30

Obviously, on this subject, we'd be staying side by side and doing the debates and things like that.

47:36

But, you know, I get criticized all the time for giving you a pass on everything.

47:44

There's a lot of folks that figure that I'm just I don't know. You must have something on me or something.

47:51

I don't know. But poor James, he just he just doesn't see that Michael Brown guy and how dangerous he really is.

47:58

So we get that all the time. So I wanted to talk about two things with you.

48:05

We don't have a whole lot of time, but I, you know, we'll be straightforward here. I forget which day it was.

48:10

It was what? About three weeks ago, I think that this graphic. Do you have this graphic, Rich?

48:17

Yes, no, maybe there we go. This graphic appeared on your Facebook feed.

48:23

I'm not sure you can see that, but it's the Grace did not save Noah, obedience did graphic.

48:28

Yeah, I guess that's a model or something, isn't it? Is that like a model of the arc from one of the museums?

48:35

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know where it's where it's from. And that was one of my staff members that found that graphic and posted it.

48:40

Yep. Right. So when I first saw it. My first thought was

48:48

Michael's talking about hypergrace, Michael's responding to some of the hypergrace stuff.

48:54

I've read your book on hypergrace. You've got to realize in my world, two things.

49:00

I had never heard about hypergrace until you mentioned it. I never it's just it's not a part of the world in which

49:07

I live. There's really strong connections between that and what's called the non lordship position in broader evangelicalism.

49:17

No repentance. Repentance is something that's in fact, if you preach repentance, you're adding to faith and so on and so forth.

49:25

So there's close connections there. But there's a sort of a charismatic realm of the grace teaching that I'm not really

49:33

I really wasn't. I was learning it as I was listening to your book. So when I saw this, the first thought across my mind, because I know you is you're talking hypergrace.

49:42

But for someone like myself who deals with Roman Catholicism and Mormonism and all sorts of works, righteousness groups.

49:54

I was just I was just like, oh, you know, restart the heart because that's the argument that they make.

50:03

Got it. And so when I saw it, I'm just like, it seems to me that it's making it's it's creating a divide between grace and obedience.

50:14

And obviously, from my perspective, it's grace that brings about obedience and that there is that necessary connection.

50:24

But the flow has to be understood and the connection has to be understood.

50:32

You got a lot of pushback on it. Yeah, and what happened is by by God's grace, our

50:37

Facebook page is very active. In fact, the the most effective week we ever had, we reached 50 million people in a week and had over five million actively engaged in comments, posts and things like that.

50:51

So I don't see the vast, vast, vast majority of comments that come in. I'm unable to interact with with even a fraction of them.

51:00

So when I saw it, when I saw the graphic and everything's up for me to look at days in advance, in fact, my staff asked me to just sometimes

51:07

I don't get to it and they'll often say add a caption for clarification, but sometimes I just don't get to it.

51:13

When I saw it, I saw it once it was it was posted. I immediately read it the same way in terms of James or Jacob, as I say, the second chapter, you know, where he says was was this one, say, by by faith, wasn't it by works, meaning the faith without works is dead.

51:28

That's how I read it. That's how I took it. Once I saw some of the controversy swirling around it,

51:34

I then posted a caption that went with it saying that, you know, Noah could have just gloried in God's favor or something.

51:42

But unless he'll yeah, unless he unless he obeyed. Yeah, I don't have it in front.

51:48

Yeah, I don't either. All right. But but in any case, unless unless he you know what?

51:55

OK, here's what I ask. Noah could have that. Here's what I wrote. Noah could have basked in God's goodness and grace and favor day and night.

52:01

But if he didn't obey God's commands, he would have drowned with the rest of the world. So that was the point. I was reacting against the hyper grace that separates things from disobedience.

52:10

So I hoped that that comment would clarify the point. Then I started getting blasted by this on Twitter.

52:17

At that point, I didn't like the way I was getting attacked and responded, you know, more to the spirit of the attack.

52:23

But without that caption, given the or without an explanation, given the other side, given the

52:31

Roman Catholic issue, yeah, it could be very misleading. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Would you go ahead?

52:37

Would you agree with me going to your expertise that that concept that Noah found favor in the eyes of the

52:48

Lord in Genesis? You're I know you're is probably you probably have this memorized in Hebrew, but Zechariah 1210 talks about the the

53:00

Ruach Chain, the the spirit of how would you render the term there?

53:08

Would you say spirit of grace? But it's all it's the very same term for favor that's used of what Noah found in the eyes of the

53:15

Lord, right? Yeah. So so Ruach Chain V'tach Nunim in in in Zechariah, the 12th chapter, the 10th verse, some say spirit of grace and supplication.

53:24

It's it is speaking of a change of heart. I don't know that it's the full chorus concept that comes out there.

53:30

The difference, though, in Genesis six, Matzah Chain is a Hebrew idiom means to please someone.

53:37

Right. Would you find favor in their eyes by pleasing them? So I don't certainly it's God's grace.

53:42

I mean, we accept that at work in Noah. But the idiom Matzah Chain doesn't so much mean he found grace as much as as he pleased the

53:50

Lord. Yeah, that's a real common idiom over and over again. But what I was going to ask is, would you agree that the the semantic domain of chorus from the

54:00

New Testament would include Chain, Chesed? I mean, there's a number of terms you have to you have to see where they intersect.

54:10

I'm just I'm just so well, R .C. Sproul Jr. posted something and I reposted it just a few moments ago in in Twitter and I'm trying let me see if I can find here real quick.

54:24

He said something along the lines of here it is. You'll love this. If you are ashamed of the God of the

54:29

Old Testament, chances are the God of the New Testament is ashamed of you. Hmm. And I retweeted that because I this idea that God, the

54:39

Old Testament, anger, wrath. That's all he is. God, the New Testament love.

54:44

It's a Gnostic idea, but it is so prevalent amongst so many people today.

54:50

And yet if you try to find the Old Testament ground for the terms that we love so much in the

54:56

New Testament, like Chorus and Agape and places like that, it's found in Hain and Chesed and the realms in which they interact with one another.

55:07

And so I think there is a strong grace theology and it goes from Genesis to Revelation.

55:13

It's not like it just decided to pop into existence in the New Testament. Yeah, I agree with you. So I'm 100 percent with you that that when

55:21

I looked at it, when I looked at the graphic, I thought, great, I like what it's saying. But I was coming from a certain point of view.

55:28

Right. Once I saw some of the valid concerns that were being raised and this all often happens, something's posted,

55:34

I'm asked to look at it first. I don't get to it. It gets posted without my caption. Then I look, look, we had a quote the other day.

55:41

Some people like to read the Bible in Hebrew, some like to read it in Greek. I prefer to read it in the Holy Ghost, you know, from an old Pentecostal preacher.

55:47

So I added the caption. Ideally, we can read the Hebrew, the Greek and in the spirit.

55:53

This is reacting against a cold intellectualism. Right. You know, so I try to put the captions in, but where there is confusion.

56:01

Yeah, I take the hit for that because because it it could have caused confusion in that way. And look,

56:07

I know you said it publicly, but but your folks need to remember those that criticize you.

56:13

Not only after I appeared on Benny Hinn, not only were you the first one to really post on Facebook on my page, taking public issue with me and you got hundreds of likes for it.

56:23

But when we sat over over dinner together in Spain, very candidly, you raised your concern to me, just the two of us.

56:30

Yep. If there's any time, you know, just to be politically correct, these two people sitting there, you raise those concerns and I you know, those concerns could have been valid.

56:38

It could have been a mistake to appear. I wanted to reach this audience, but it could have been a mistake and it could have done more harm than good.

56:44

That that remains a genuine possibility to me to this day. So we've had our

56:49

I don't think I've ever had to do that with you because you haven't been on the show or been invited on by Oprah.

56:56

But but anyhow, anyway, I mean, you we've speaking we've spoken candidly to each other.

57:02

We do. We do. The other way. I hope it goes both directions. All right. One more, because I've heard no one raise this.

57:10

Yeah, but I was listening to the briefing and in iTunes when it gets done, it seems to like to play you next.

57:18

So I was making breakfast or something like that. So let's listen to what Michael has to say today.

57:25

And you were addressing the. Minor controversy that sort of erupted,

57:32

I think it was last week, maybe the week before last with Bishop T .D. Jakes and the

57:40

I forget the CNN guy that he was. Yeah, it's Mark Lamont Hill.

57:45

It was he's on CNN, but he was a Huffington Post interview. Right. And, you know, I listened to Jake's comments and I was just sort of like rolling my eyes going, what in the world are you saying here?

57:56

There's a lack of clarity. And you were trying to say, Bishop Jakes, you've got to be clear. Your your whole point was you're not you're the trumpet is sounding an uncertain note here is what you were saying.

58:10

But in the process twice, once there was a you said to Bishop Jakes, you are a

58:18

Christian leader, you're a pastor of the flock. And then at least once you use the term brother of T .D.

58:27

Jakes and I put my breakfast down and I said, huh?

58:35

Because my understanding and I sent you a link, I don't know if you had a chance to look at it was probably too long to look at in the amount of time to do it, but.

58:43

I've a couple of years ago, we had the elephant room thing where T .D. Jakes appeared with James McDonald and some other folks, who's the

58:55

Mark Driscoll. Thank you. Right. And I went through that very carefully because.

59:02

I deal a lot with one this Pentecostalism, I've debated some of their leading people, I know what their viewpoints are.

59:10

It's different, of course, than the Unitarians that you and I debated on the Jewish Voice broadcast.

59:16

It has its own language, it has its own history. And obviously in today's situation, it seems to me that there is a willingness on the part of evangelicals to stand firm on monotheism and stand firm on the deity of Christ.

59:34

But when it comes to the distinction of the persons, which is one of the most difficult things for most people to enunciate in their own definition, the

59:41

Trinity anyways, it doesn't really matter because, you know, you've got Phillips, Craig and Dean and you've got some infiltration into evangelicalism, especially in charismatic circles of people who come from either the perspective of being oneness or now there's entire churches that say, we don't know, we're not certain.

01:00:03

We can't tell. Some people say persons, some people say manifestations, blah, blah, blah, blah. And those people are being allowed to lead in worship and do all sorts of stuff like that.

01:00:13

So in listening to Jake's and I have the I have the the transcript of what he said.

01:00:19

When someone says to me, I'm uncomfortable with the term persons. I prefer the term manifestations and goes to First Timothy 316,

01:00:28

God was manifest in the flesh. That's telling me this person is not a person who is embracing and understanding the doctrine of the

01:00:37

Trinity. And yet that's where he is. So help me understand how is

01:00:43

T .D. Jake's brother, Jake's. Got it. Now, here's the thing that's fascinating.

01:00:49

You and I are both very careful thinkers and communicators. As I was writing my article, my open questions, very challenging questions to to T .D.

01:01:00

Jake's, and I refer to him as as one of the most influential Christian leaders in America. I thought to myself,

01:01:05

I'm going to get challenged on that point because some will say he's not even a Christian. Now, I don't think

01:01:11

I was thinking James White, but I knew that some would challenge whether he's a Christian at all. And I said, well,

01:01:17

I'm using it generically right now, just like you referred to him as Bishop Jake's. And just like Bishop is a

01:01:24

King James word, like First Timothy 3. And just like Jeremiah would refer to the prophet Hananiah, even though he's a false prophet,

01:01:30

I said, I'm just using it generically. Most would think he's a Christian, but I'm using it generically anyway.

01:01:36

So I wasn't making a judgment. But saying, brother, was I making an assumption that he was a believer?

01:01:43

Yeah, I was making that assumption based on what I had heard of a clear profession of salvation only through Jesus, believing in his death, his resurrection and his deity.

01:01:55

And hearing some years ago, because I never I never looked into it carefully, hearing some years ago that he he did affirm a

01:02:03

Trinitarian position, but some still accused him of being a modalist. So based on on what

01:02:09

I knew and what I heard since I wrote that, others have written to me and also referred me to the elephant room and and the manifestations, quote, see if he said,

01:02:18

I have a problem with the concept of personhood because it's speaking of God in two human ways, and I believe in the distinction of father, son and spirit and and and distinctions between them.

01:02:29

One God in father, son and spirit eternally. So I wouldn't have a problem with someone that using person because I understand from a

01:02:35

Jewish viewpoint how that can be misunderstood. But the moment you say manifestations, then I hear modalism. Yeah. So now let me say this.

01:02:43

I am I you may differ with me on this, but I believe there are some oneness

01:02:48

Pentecostals who are saved based on the first John two principle of he who has the son has the father also.

01:02:54

I believe it's a terribly erroneous doctrine. It's a dangerous doctrine. And then one is Pentecostals have a whole lot of other baggage with them.

01:03:01

But I'm not willing to say just because someone does not clearly articulate Trinity, but if they clearly articulate salvation through Jesus alone, our universal sinfulness or his blood saving us, his death, his resurrection on the cross, his deity, his lordship and so on.

01:03:19

And affirming one God that if they don't articulate Trinity, will I say that they are definitely not saved?

01:03:24

I can't make that statement categorically, although in many cases it may be the case.

01:03:29

I'm not sure if you're saying you can categorically. Well, let me let me define my position at that point, because I'll be perfectly honest with you,

01:03:37

I've said many times and Muslims who watch everything that I do and put it back out on YouTube for me for some reason.

01:03:46

Muslims have caught me saying this a number of times, and that's that's fine because I really do believe this. I think if we took a if we gave a test.

01:03:55

To the majority of evangelicals coming out of church this coming

01:04:01

Sunday morning on the doctrine of the Trinity, less than half would pass. In fact, I would say we'd have a 75 percent failure rate.

01:04:10

Yeah. And probably the majority would test modalistic.

01:04:16

Now, that is a problem of ignorance, it's a problem of of not teaching the whole counsel of God.

01:04:23

A lot of that comes back on the leadership of the church. And and there's all sorts of things we could talk about there. But the point is, am

01:04:29

I saying all those people are lost? Well, I think there's a lot of nominalism in the church, but no, I think

01:04:35

I do not make a profession, a perfect profession, the doctrine, the Trinity, the requirement for salvation, because I was saved at a very, very young age and I wouldn't have been able to have been saved at that point if that was what was required.

01:04:47

I do make a strong distinction, however, interestingly enough, based on First John to going the other direction in saying, given if you know what oneness

01:04:59

Pentecostalism is saying, if you're Randy Phillips and Randy Phillips knows what the doctrine, the

01:05:05

Trinity is, and I think T .D. Jakes knows what the doctrine is and says, I'm not comfortable with that.

01:05:11

Instead, what you have are manifestations. And in oneness theology, the son becomes a created being.

01:05:22

Jesus is actually two persons. The son refers to his human nature. The father refers to his divine nature.

01:05:28

So the prayer life of Jesus in UPCI historic teaching is an internal conversation between the father and the son.

01:05:37

But the son came into existence at his birth and birth in Bethlehem. He's not an eternal person. He's not truly divine.

01:05:42

Got it. So if you embrace that, then going to First John two, you don't have the son anymore.

01:05:49

So you don't have the father either. Yeah, I would accept that analysis absolutely the same way.

01:05:55

And if that's what T .D. Jakes actually holds, then obviously that would be my wish.

01:06:00

Someone had asked him that at the elephant room. That was one of my biggest problems. If you get a chance to listen to the link

01:06:06

I sent you, that was my big thing. It's not difficult to identify oneness teaching if you'll just ask the right questions.

01:06:13

Nobody did. And so I would love maybe you'd have a whole lot better opportunity of it than I would of maybe asking

01:06:20

Bishop Jakes that someday direct, straightforward. Do you affirm that the son as a divine person preexisted his birth in Bethlehem?

01:06:31

That is the question that rips the mask off of any form of modalism.

01:06:37

Yeah, and that's the non negotiable to both of us. And for many reasons. And but, you know, right now it's a strange thing with my open letters to Pastor MacArthur, to Joel Osteen, to T .D.

01:06:47

Jakes, I'm not I don't think I'm on their their like BFF list and stuff. But if I'm if I'm able to ask

01:06:54

Bishop Jakes, I'll make sure to do it 100 percent. I'm with you shoulder to shoulder in that.

01:06:59

Well, and I would pursue it. So here we did. We did it again. We talked most of the time about what we're 100 percent.

01:07:09

Side by side on and then we managed to talk about two issues. And look at this, not only did we bring clarity, but we seem to understand where each one is standing and hopefully have been able to explain it to folks.

01:07:24

It's amazing what happens when you when you actually allow the other person to talk. Yeah, it is.

01:07:30

And when you listen, when they talk. Yeah. But listen, I appreciate you deeply.

01:07:35

Every so often I get blasted from my association with you. And it's

01:07:40

I always enjoy defending you as well. And and listen, we recognize

01:07:45

God's purposes have joined us together. I think being fellow apologist in the trenches, you have a certain mutual admiration.

01:07:52

And look, the fact you go around the world, you don't have this entourage of bodyguards and you go and stand in a mosque and debate in Europe or in South Africa, you know, to me, nobody's got the right to criticize you regardless.

01:08:05

Well, that does remind me. Next January, I'm teaching apologetics at RTS in Charlotte.

01:08:12

Don't forget that. That's right. That's right. We've got to coordinate some events. Got to coordinate something while I'm there.

01:08:19

And unless we have snowpocalypse again, which, you know, what can

01:08:25

I say? That's what happened last time. So, Michael, thank you so much. I, again, remind everybody,

01:08:31

Outlasting the Gay Revolution, new subtitle, but this one says eight principles for long term cultural change.

01:08:38

But now there's something new about the yeah, where homosexual activism is really going and how to turn the tide.

01:08:45

But all the eight principles are there. It's the exact same same one. Same ones. Yep. I was I've told folks about on the

01:08:51

Divine Line before I've told them when I got a chance to read it. I know Dr. Moeller has a book coming out in the similar vein.

01:08:57

I got a chance to read it recently. And so it's good to have the responses out there.

01:09:04

Thank you so much for the work. I know that. Look, I wrote one book on it. I have to do I'm by the way,

01:09:11

I'm going to be starting. I need I don't know how to do this because I'm going to Kiev and Zurich starting next week.

01:09:18

A week after next. You and I together, brother, I really believe this is important.

01:09:26

We've got to put together a full response to James Brownson.

01:09:33

I know I don't I'm not sure why Bob Gagnon hasn't done that yet. He's talked about working on it, but I'm going to be doing some stuff.

01:09:43

Did you are you aware of the fact that he has videos on Matthew Vine's website where he goes through Romans chapter one and on the program here, our audience likes watching what they're saying and then

01:09:57

I respond to it and that that really works with the millennial generation is the visual aspect of it.

01:10:03

So we're going to be going through his Romans one stuff. But there's there's all sorts of stuff. On Arson, a case on his whole theory of, well, it's excessive lust, not not, you know, in other words, a certain amount of that lust wouldn't be bad, but it's excessive type stuff, excessive adultery.

01:10:22

The adultery itself is not the only excessive adult. Excessive exaggeration. This this is. But you and I both know he has replaced

01:10:31

Boswell as the go to guy for the, quote unquote, gay Christian movement.

01:10:36

And we have got to get out there, both you and I and both.

01:10:41

I imagine you have contact with Bob as well as I do, encouraging him as well to we've got to put that material out there.

01:10:49

It's the book's been out long enough and we need to. I mean, I've talked about it. So have you. But in a way that we can really communicate to folks, that's something that's really on my plate, even though I'm going to be gone,

01:11:00

I'm going to be overseas five of the next eight weeks or some odd thing like that in South Africa and stuff like that and debating a leading advocate of gay marriage in South Africa where they've had gay marriage for a number of years now.

01:11:15

So ask your folks to pray about that. And I think it might be we can't get anybody here to debate. So it's awful nice.

01:11:21

Maybe we might be able to get an English debate on that subject, even though the fellow will have a South African accent.

01:11:27

Yeah. And I've had some great communication with Professor John Corvino recently, who heads up philosophy department,

01:11:34

I believe, at Wayne State University. And he's debated Ryan Anderson and Maggie Gallagher and Glenn Stanton, but very much willing to do some debates with me on gay marriage progress or regress, that same kind of theme.

01:11:46

So hopefully we can do it. And let it be that God allows us to sit side by side and debate some opponents.

01:11:52

Man, we put the invitation out. We're not getting takers. But one of these days and the Browns and stuff, you know, let me look at it.

01:11:59

I have to submit my Job commentary to Hendrickson at the end of this month.

01:12:05

And then my head's going to be a little clearer as well. And on our show, because we're looping in video with the radio, too, we can do that same kind of thing.

01:12:12

So maybe I can look at some of his Genesis material and some of the Old Testament stuff and respond to it.

01:12:18

But let's team together. And principle number six, keep propagating truth until the lies are exposed.

01:12:23

That's exactly right. That's where you keep doing. Thank you very much. I know you had just done your own program. You've been sitting in front of a microphone for way too long.

01:12:30

I'm sure you need to go get a workout. I worked out this morning. You want to hear my workout real quick this morning?

01:12:38

This was with my trainer. OK. The warm up was run up and down the steps 10 times and then do 30 burpees.

01:12:44

Then to take 25 pound weights, 25 in each hand and do 30 shoulder presses and then pause, then 28, then 26.

01:12:53

And, you know, I had to pause, obviously, until I got down to two. So that was 240 reps of those. Then do squats with the 25 pounds in each hand.

01:13:03

Deep squats, 30, 28, 26. That was 240 of those. Then do it with push ups, 240 push ups, 30, 28, 26.

01:13:11

And then close with, I guess, whatever you call them, the shoulders going out to the side.

01:13:16

But that was just with low weights, like 12 and a half pounds, 30, 28, 26. So we finished a thousand reps in an hour.

01:13:23

Ouch. And good news is my next workout is not until tomorrow. Oh, there you go. Yeah, exactly right.

01:13:29

And all I did was climb South Mountain. Oh, my. You know, I only spent two and a half hours climbing

01:13:35

South Mountain, 3 ,800 some odd feet of climbing. I feel I feel bad now. Anyways, man, thanks a lot for joining us.

01:13:42

Everyone is looking at you going, yeah, you don't look like you looked like only about 95 pounds, less 180 pounds thriving.

01:13:49

Enjoying the blessing of God. There you go. Thanks for having me on. All right. Thanks, man. Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye bye.

01:13:55

All right, folks. Thank you very much for joining us on the dividing line. Hope that was useful to you. As I just mentioned,

01:14:00

I've got a lot of traveling coming up. I know next week I am away on Tuesday and when

01:14:08

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So maybe we'll try to do something Thursday, Friday. We'll see what can happen the week after that.

01:14:14

Toward the end of the week, I head toward Zurich and Kiev. So don't know what's going to be up, but just pray for traveling mercies, all the upcoming stuff.