Q&A Day 1

We'll start off with this question, since we just got done with the topic of the Holy Spirit and

evangelism.

All right, it starts off, You must be born again.

We often do not use this when evangelizing.

We share the gospel by different spirituals.

Being born again is a work of the Spirit.

Why or how do we approach this, such an important verse, when sharing the gospel?

Which one of our evangelists wants to take that one?

So one of the things that I use that scripture for most of the time is to differentiate people who

know what they're talking about, and people who sit in church pews on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings for their

entire life.

Typically, whenever I approach someone, like Brother Jay was talking about, I would ask them if they knew the

Lord whenever we're discussing.

If they don't, they always say yes.

I say, so you've been born again.

They would just stop.

What do you mean?

Now I know you haven't read your Bible, so I doubt the authenticity of

your statement, right?

So in terms of when you use that text, if someone hasn't been

born again, there's been no repentance, there's been no renewal.

Then I suppose it's a good place to

begin asking them if what they claim they experienced is genuine or not.

So I think we have to remember in what context Jesus was using that.

He was speaking to Nicodemus, and one of the things that he says to him is,

you're the teacher of all of Israel, but you do not know these things.

And so I think that in part, we need to keep in mind that this is something that Jesus is

teaching to somebody who ought to know who the people of God are.

And the people of God are those who are born again.

Now, we might have some theological disagreements on this stage, so I'm going to leave it to each man to

respond to that however they want.

But the point is that we who are believers,

how do we recognize someone who is our brethren?

Well, we know they're born again.

How do we know they're born again?

We look at their fruit.

And so I think in the context of what Jesus was saying, he was referring to this is how you

recognize those who are true believers.

They're the ones that are born again.

So I don't know if that helps with the question.

I'm not saying that you can't use it in evangelism, because certainly it can be used as something

to have the person reflect on.

I do believe that Jesus was also using that with Nicodemus to point him to, have

you truly trusted in God?

And I think that's perfectly fine to do when we preach the gospel.

A lot of people in this country think that they're Christian because they were born into it.

Because mom and dad are Christian, and it's what I've always been taught, and this and that.

But the question is, have you been born again?

Now, we don't stop there.

We explain the gospel to them, because saying, have you been born again, is not the gospel.

But it's a good segue into it.

I just add one thing.

When you talk about being born again, too, Jesus responded to Nicodemus in saying that a man must be born of

water and of the Spirit.

So you must be born again.

Jesus is also describing the work of regeneration.

That's why I'm born again.

So we've all been born one time by water.

You were birthed, your mama's water broke.

So you're birthed by water and then by the Spirit.

So you must be born again.

And so he's talking about the work of regeneration there in that.

So considering that, going back, I appreciate one thing that Claude said today.

And it echoes what both of these brothers have already said, too.

If you've had that birth, you will know that's not something that's abstract.

It is significant.

Not only is it a mental change, a heart change, but it's a feeling change like you.

You will know when the Spirit has done that in your life.

And so, therefore, there is a testimony of that.

Even if you don't have the language to describe it as a new birth or a new baby in Christ,

you will know.

It's not just some kind of religious exercise.

It is regeneration.

It is a work of the Holy Spirit that you will know.

But I think that's important to understand that he's describing spiritual birth or regeneration.

Does that answer the breadth of that question?

I think so.

I think so.

So I think that, by the way, the question, it was more, you know, why do we not?

The thing I would say is that there's a difference between

Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus and the typical conversations you would have with unbelievers out on

the street.

Well, Nicodemus had not yet been born again, which is clear.

He was at least versed, as Jay was saying, and was one who was given the oracles of God

and having the Old Testament.

So if you're dealing with those who are absolutely unaffiliated whatsoever with

the gospel or the Old Testament, the Bible does say that the law of the Lord is

perfect in converting the soul.

So that's where I would tend to start.

If I was looking for a reason that I wouldn't use that scripture, it would be because the Bible tells us

where to start when sharing the gospel, and that's with the law under the gospel.

Sir, Brother Foster said that we sometimes shy away from the subject of the Holy Spirit

due to some of the heresies that are falsely associated with it.

What are some other reasons you can think of that people shy away from the subject of the Holy Spirit?

I appreciate that.

Excellent question.

Some other reasons, not only is it heresies, but also just flat out there's a lack of teaching in the church

about it.

So that's why we stop ignoring it.

Typically, we don't like to talk about things we don't know.

We typically love to talk about stuff we do know.

And so if the church is not equipped with sound doctrine concerning the Holy Spirit,

then they're not ready to give an answer.

And the Bible tells us when the world asks you, what's the reason for the hope that you have is to be

ready to give an answer.

So we should be able to give an answer.

But even among believers, not only is it a lack of doctrinal knowledge, but it's also

a fear of offense.

We're afraid of offending one another.

We're afraid of stepping on somebody else's toes and those kind of things.

And especially in the South, you know, be kind one to another is sometimes be

soft one to another.

And I think you've noticed today through the preaching and through the teaching of these guys, we are kind and gentle and we do love

each other, but we don't mind pressing on each other to pushing back and holding tension there together and

asking hard questions of each other.

And the reason we do that, though, because we've developed a relationship that we don't take offense because we know no one

here has the agenda to tear somebody else down.

We are pressing each other to be as theologically accurate as possible and to at least know

why we believe what we believe and be able to give a good defense.

So that includes the Holy Spirit.

When it comes to that, it's explaining a position and doing those kind of things.

But when folks are not equipped with that, when they're afraid of offending somebody, when they don't know why

they believe what they believe, all those kind of things are reasons to not talk

about the Holy Spirit.

The final thing that I would say, too, and this is going to be twice that I've mentioned experiential things.

Sometimes people have not had deep encounters with the Holy Spirit, so therefore they don't have a testimony.

I appreciate what Klaus said earlier.

When the Holy Spirit moves, there is feeling, and it's OK.

There's a lot of movements based on emotionalism.

It's not what we're talking about.

But if the Spirit of God is stirring in you, it will create emotion.

You've seen men tear up today.

You've seen us be passionate.

You've seen us be loud.

You've heard the congregation say amen.

If the Holy Spirit is working and equipping and doing something in us, God has designed us

to give response.

So that's not worshiping emotion.

That's just a natural response to the work of God.

As long as we're not categorizing it as it has to look like X, Y, Z, because

sometimes the Lord does stuff in me, and I'm mad about it.

And then other times I'm happy, and then I'm sad, and then whatever.

But all throughout Scripture we see the people of God and the men and women of God and the Word of God

have emotional response from the work of God.

So I think all that connects of reasons why we don't talk about it.

We may not have experience.

We may not have knowledge.

And we're afraid of also offending somebody else.

You kind of answered this a little bit in your answer to the last question, but how can a Christian

distinguish the guiding of the Holy Spirit from feelings and emotions?

One begets the other always.

I find it to be impossible to not have an emotional reaction

to the Holy Spirit moving on you.

But the reverse of that is almost never true.

Being emotional does not propagate a move of God in your midst.

So if one seems to be driving towards the other, and you can see that it's forced,

then it's not of God.

Typically that's going to always be a pretty good step.

The other thing is that, as they've said here today, the Holy Spirit testifies of Christ and who

Christ is.

If there's a movement in a church that is not testifying of Christ, if it is testifying of another,

then according to Scripture it does not line up with the testimony of the Holy Ghost, which is to point folks to Christ

and to testify of who Christ is.

So if you find yourself in a situation where the person is sharing something that the Holy Ghost

has told them to say, to use a term that you'll hear from time to time in some circles,

but it seeks to glorify man, whether the man who gives the

wisdom, with air quotes left out, if it tends to puff him up and

make him the hero of the story, if it tends to make you the highlight of the story and become about you, then it's almost

always categorically false, and according to Scripture it doesn't hold muster.

The Word of God tells us to test every spirit to see if it is from God.

How do we test every spirit?

Well, God has given us something to test every spirit by, which is the Word.

And so the question is, are your emotions being led because of

some scriptural truth, or are they being led by random emotionalism?

I remember this thing I saw on social media of this girl, who

she said that she started going to church, and she was

always so excited and just moved to tears, and she realized she wasn't a

Christian when she went to a concert, a secular concert, and had the exact same feelings.

So she wasn't being led by scriptural truth, she was being led by just emotions themselves.

See, the Word should lead us to emotion, but it should not be

emotions themselves that help us to understand who God is.

That's why I said that when we preach the gospel, we have to engage with someone's mind first,

and God will use that to bring it to the heart.

I think a great example in answering these questions is

what just happened in Jay's sermon.

I remember hearing in Jay's sermon, he said, I know I'm supposed to

be preaching about the Holy Spirit, so I didn't want to give my

testimony.

But that was preaching about the Holy Spirit!

I mean, the Holy Spirit led him to preach Christ and Him crucified, and

what the Holy Spirit had been doing in his life.

So the Holy Spirit led him to be

preaching about the Holy Spirit, because he preached Christ,

Him crucified, and what the Holy Spirit had been doing in his life.

And so to me, that was a prime example of, how do I recognize the Holy Spirit?

Well, even when we think we're not doing it exactly the way we should be doing, the Holy Spirit is

going to direct us into what the Holy Spirit does, which is point to Christ.

And I think that was a great example.

How do you get many

interpretations of Scripture with one God, one Spirit leading and guiding?

And can anyone expound on how this relates to interpretation versus application, as well

as unity and uniformity?

Bad hermeneutics is the answer.

And if you don't know what that is, hermeneutics is the art and science of interpreting

written communication.

And we are, by nature, bad at it.

Because we tend to read our own ideas and our own wants

into a written text.

And if you don't believe me, the Supreme Court is a hermeneutical institution.

It was designed for the purpose of ensuring that the laws of this land are in accordance with the

Constitution, that the Constitution is what all law must be governed against and

determined against.

And their job is to interpret the Constitution.

And they're supposed to interpret it according to a set of rules, grammatical and historical.

And when they don't, we know it.

Because they come up with all kinds of foolishness that does not go along with the

original intention of the writers of the document.

Same thing is true for the Bible.

There is a grammatical and historical method for interpreting Scripture.

Can it lead to two men having disagreements, as some of us do?

Yes, because we bring with us our own traditions, we bring with us our own

wants and our own experiences.

That's the hard part.

That's why we come to different conclusions.

But that doesn't mean that the document itself is faulty.

The failure is with the interpreter.

And so how do we become better is we become better interpreters, better

students of hermeneutics, better at observing and interpreting

the text according to the rules of grammar and historical context.

So that's why it's bad.

The vast majority of people who go to the Bible get the order out of, and I'm

sorry, I'm not going to preach, I'm sorry.

The order is observation, interpretation, and application, which means what does the text say?

It cannot mean what it does not say, therefore that's first.

It must be interpreted in light of what it says.

It will not mean what it does not say.

And then it must be applied according to what it has meant and what it has always meant.

That's the order.

Men begin with application.

How does this text apply to me?

If that's how you start your Bible study, you are wrong because

that is doing it upside down.

And that's where so many men and women arrive at wrong understandings with the same Holy Spirit because

they're not applying the proper methods of interpretation.

Observation, interpretation, and application.

Observation means to look at what is there and then interpreting what is there based upon

several factors.

Sorry, go ahead.

I'm going to say just one thing about that.

That observation, interpretation, application thing works really well because otherwise my sermon would have been terrible today.

So I'm just saying use it.

Very good.

Observation does not mean, though, what do you think this means.

Observation means in historical context what was the author saying,

what observing in its context, and then flow it out from there.

Because a lot of times in little Bible studies, everybody gets, like, what are you getting out of this?

What are you getting out of this?

And so the goal is not to hear what you're getting out of it.

The goal is what it says.

No, not necessarily.

It depends on the application.

Let's look it up.

Let's look it up and let's read it together.

And then, Keith, once you walk us through that, just what exactly since you opened it up.

Go ahead, Dan, while they're looking at it.

I didn't mean to make it gone.

I don't have a Bible.

No, it's fine.

I got my phone.

It's fine.

So I'll read it.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to bring

good news to the poor.

He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening

of the prison to those who are bound, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the day of

vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, to grant to those who mourn

in Zion to give them beautiful headdresses instead of ashes, the oil of

gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit,

that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, and he

may be glorified.

So it goes on and on and on.

So making beauty from ashes is a summarization of

the product of what the Lord has anointed this messenger to come and preach the message

to those who are under bondage.

Okay?

So go ahead, Keith.

Well, immediately I would ask, I'm not quite sure I understand kind of where you're coming from.

Are you asking if that particular use of that phrase is right?

Sort of like God makes lemons out of lemonade or makes lemonade out of lemons kind of?

I mean, is that what it means?

I've never heard that phrase used in that way.

I'm from Florida.

So for example, Keith, for example, okay, let's use a heavy, heavy thing.

Like we have a representation of abortion here, and Heather's

story, and she ministers to post -abortive moms, okay?

So a house gets burned down because a mom makes a bad decision, sinfully has an abortion.

But then God can turn those ashes, he can take out of those ashes and make something beautiful out of it.

So he makes beauty out of ashes.

And so I don't think it's using it just to answer.

I'll answer that part of it.

I don't think it's out of context because when you're reading this part of the chapter, it's talking about

the gospel.

It's talking about the deliverer and that God has appointed.

And when we go to Luke 4, Jesus says this.

So he is the one that the Lord has anointed to bring good news, to set the captives free.

He is the one that takes ashes and makes them into beauty.

And so we're talking about the redemptive nature of the gospel when we use that term.

So it's not wrong to use that, I would say, you know what I mean?

That he takes terrible situations and brings redemption to know him.

So that is the role of Christ, okay?

But we do have those slang words.

There's others, though, like cleanliness is next to godliness.

That is not in there, okay?

Does that make sense?

See, I think there's an interesting balance here between context and principle.

That while we have a context, just to use another example, Matthew 18, where two or three are

gathered in my name, there I am among them.

And we've got some differing ideas on how to apply that.

I've heard some of them that you get two or three people, you've got a church.

Well, as the context, the initial point for which God wrote that

was within the understanding of discipline and accountability in the church.

And so it's not necessarily, in and of itself, a statement of if you have two or three people, that's only

when you get the presence of God.

But there is definitely, I think, a principle that we could pull from that, that God is present when

believers are gathered.

And I think that's kind of what you're asking about beauty for ashes, is it may be a slightly different context,

because we're not necessarily talking about the anointing of Christ, but there is a principle by

which God brings beauty out of ashes, as he did with Israel.

Now, there are cases where people do take that into a different kind of context, because I can do all things through Christ who strengthened me,

right?

How many boxers have that on the side of their pants when they go out to get in a ring with somebody else?

It has nothing to do with the gospel, right?

You know?

Oh, I see it.

Oh, that was it.

That was it.

Say your answer again.

I'm just kidding.

I can do all things through the verse, taking it out of context.

But I think what Brother Jonathan did do—.

So whenever you—if you're going to use Scripture like beauty from ashes out of Isaiah, then

you find it in the book, you observe it, you read it.

What does it say?

What does the book speak to in that?

What does the Word say?

And then I would say, generally speaking— somebody throw a rock at me if I say something

out of line here— somewhere else in Scripture, you're going to have the answer for that.

So Jesus says in Luke 14, today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your ears.

So even though they had this text, truthfully,

the meaning behind it had still been veiled to Israel up until Jesus was rejected in Nazareth.

I would also say specifically for that example, if you're trying to

evaluate yourself and your use of the term, where's the focus of the value?

Is the focus of the value redemption, also known as I'm exalting Christ,

or is the focus of the value my value?

And I would think that would be a good way to evaluate the use of the phrase.

Next

question.

As we serve for spirit -filled unity, is there a distinct line that

causes division that hinders fellowship between cessationists and continuationists?

Can I answer that?

So Jonathan from Eden Chapel, one of the elders from Eden Chapel,

this was his question.

He's gone.

He had to leave.

So that's why he's not here.

But it is important and it's significant.

I think to that question, can you read it once again?

Restate that.

As we strive for spirit -filled unity, I misread that, sorry, it's in half person.

As we strive for spirit -filled unity, is there a distinct line that causes division

that hinders fellowship between cessationists and continuationists?

So Johnny came back, we talked about that a little bit, and I told him I would try to bring a little bit of clarification and help on this.

I know these other guys will have good things to add as well.

So this dividing line that's brought up in question, I would

ask about that line and say who gets to draw the line, right?

Because the lines are typically drawn by one camp or another camp,

cessationists or continuationists.

There are extremes on both sides.

There should be a balance in the middle with the Scripture where even it could be, I'll

go so far as to say it, it could be that even those terms

really don't define because who's to say if a hardcore cessationist says

the Spirit of God does not work today, then what are we here for?

Faith is a gift of the Spirit.

Is God still giving faith to people?

I think we need that one.

Hallelujah.

How long have you been?

That's exactly right.

Have you been saved?

If you've been saved, it's because of working of the Holy Spirit.

And so these other things can be worked out, worked through, but should be done so

if we're going to have bold lines, they need to be lines that are drawn by the Scripture and not lines

drawn by us as individuals.

So again, how can we get around those dividing lines?

Can we be honest enough to admit that we're drawing lines that really shouldn't be there a lot of times?

A hundred percent.

I found an article I'm going to share with all you guys later.

It's really not even an article, but it's a guy who creates a list of definitions.

He uses the term like hard continuous, standard continuous, soft continuous,

skeptical, noncommittal, soft cessationist,

observant cessationist, hard cessationist, bedrock cessationist, and so

on and so forth.

So I think there is a place

where orthodoxy breaks fellowship with unorthodox.

And that's very plain.

Like I grew up in a culture, and I don't know if they do it around here.

You got any snake handlers around here?

So I grew up in the other part of the Appalachians, and I can take you to church in

Robbinsville, North Carolina, that they pull rattlesnakes out in the middle of service.

Now they're going to do it in the name of Jesus, and they're going to dance and do all kinds of stuff, and it's got Baptist attached to the name too, guys.

So that is an unorthodoxy.

That they've made doctrine.

So I ain't fellowshiping with them.

You know what I mean?

Like we're not going to sit down and have a casserole together on Sunday afternoon because I

ain't going there.

So all I'm trying to say is I'm thankful that I believe every man on this stage

lives within the boundaries of orthodoxy of Scripture because we all can give

a defense from Scripture.

But things like this are, I'm cautious personally to use

the term doctrine because doctrine means something, in my opinion, worth dying over.

So this is theological understanding.

This is theological convictions.

And as far as in our congregation, I only use the term doctrine for first -tier

things that are non -negotiables, close -handed issues.

That's doctrine.

Then the rest of it, for me personally and descriptively, trying to equip my congregation for what's

worth fighting over, dying over, and what's not, we use open -handed issues or we use the term

that's biblical conviction.

And from the Bible we've thus far arrived at this conviction.

And this is why we believe what we believe.

And so I break fellowship over doctrine.

And there are things about the Holy Spirit, including in cessationism or continualism, that we

do divide over because it is an orthodox that goes against the doctrine

of the Holy Spirit.

And there is doctrine of the Holy Spirit for that.

Does that make sense?

There's something I want to praise the Lord about as well.

There's a kind of a side conversation that needs to take place besides the

one that was just asked.

A lot of times you'll have a panel like this, and it will be

cessationists.

This is how conversations about cessation and continuation happen.

We have a conference and we have a panel of cessationists.

The flip side, we have a panel and conversation about continuation.

And we're talking to the other party through the Internet, and then there's a response,

and then there's another response.

And so that's why I'm so thankful to the Lord for these guys who were on the same stage on a panel

coming from different areas, willing to have a conversation.

So the other conversation that needs to happen is the line of character and maturity

and willingness to do the hard thing and look at truth together

and work on those things together.

As we strive for spirit -filled unity, is there a distinct line that causes division and

hinders fellowship?

Well, if the unity that you're striving for is spirit -filled,

then the line would be whenever you're trying to have unity with something that has nothing to do with the Holy

Spirit.

And that would be your line.

So I thought I heard you say that, so I wanted to ask for clarification.

If you start with, if the desire is to have unity in the spirit,

then you have to draw the line where the spirit is vacant.

Whether that be, what do you call them, charismaniacs, right?

Or dries cracker juice.

What was the other term you used earlier?

Dries dirt.

Dries dirt.

Dries dirt.

Yeah, I like cracker juice.

The frozen chosen or the charismaniacs,

if the sermons or the meeting is void of the Holy Spirit,

then don't associate with them.

And I think that the first question you read would give you a good indication as to whether or not

their spirit -filled, spirit -led, are they testifying of Christ?

Is the Word of God the standard in which they hold?

Is the things that happen inside the congregation both uplifting to the church in the same way that they hold

Jesus Christ as the highest objective of worship for them?

No, I just keep wanting to say stuff, but I don't.

But you are more than welcome.

I want to, Michael's not here, so I'll reiterate something he said in his sermon.

We also have to understand, and this is anathema to so many people, so you don't have to

agree with me.

Denominations aren't bad.

Because they allow us to express certain convictions that aren't necessarily held by people in other

denominations and yet still call each other brothers and sisters in Christ.

There's a difference between a denomination and a cult.

So my Presbyterian brother might hold a strong conviction about infant baptism, looking at you.

And I may think he's absolutely wrong.

And love him all the same.

And wish I had a beard as regal.

And that's something I think that we can be okay with.

Be okay with the distinction in this.

So my mother goes to a Holiness Church.

It's Pentecostal, but they're called Congregational Methodists.

They're a little more Pentecostal than normal.

And I love my mama, and I love Jesus.

I think she's a believer, and I'm thankful that she gets to go to church and hear the Word of God, and she's loving it.

And I love it for her.

My kids get to go with her when they go to grandma's church, and that's okay.

And they love it, because the song's usually a little bit more expressive than we are, and that's cool.

And I'm okay with there being some distinction within the body of Christ without

division in the sense that we hate each other.

One of the things I hate is sometimes when I hear, like, at her church, there'll be this sort of off -putting of Calvinists,

Calvinists this, or at our church, the off -putting of the Charismatics, the Charismatics this.

I think we can disagree and still be thankful that we exist.

And that's all I was trying to get around to is we can have unity like

this with holding some different convictions.

That's all I was wanting to say.

Yeah, we did.

Well, weren't they in?

This was submitted anonymously.

Of course it was.

So here's something I want to clarify, something that I think causes a lot of people to have,

I don't know, show me in Scripture where Peter

unilaterally used gifts that were his to use at his own behest

or where God moved through Peter or Paul.

And you won't find Peter and Paul using, quote -unquote, powers when they want to.

In fact, if you read the very beginning of the book of Acts, former

tristes I have written to you, dearest Theophilus, of all the things that Christ both began to do and teach.

And then he begins to write about the things Christ is continuing to do.

The first miracle we see Peter do after the day of Pentecost is on the way of prayer

to the temple to pray.

He speaks to that man and tells him to pick up his bed and walk.

Who gets credit for this healing?

Jesus.

He said, is this Jesus that healed him?

Why do you stand here so amazed?

Nothing I've done made this man whole.

Who gets the glory?

Christ gets the glory.

This is how we know the Holy Spirit done this work.

Right?

Had Peter claimed he'd done this in his own power, he would be more reminiscent of

Simon the sorcerer that we read about later on in the book of Acts who

claimed himself to be the great power of God.

So I can't find evidence in Scripture where any of the apostles obtained a gift they could use at their own behest.

I can find portions of Scripture where they would tell you in their own letters that they

may themselves be afflicted or buffeted by a messenger of Satan, but gloried in their infirmity

because it was for their good that they have it.

I can find in Scripture where they previously laid hands on folks who were dead and they got

up, but their friend had chronic stomach pains and ailments that God, for whatever reasons, and they're

God's reasons and God's reasons alone, that they remained ill for however long.

So I've seen no evidence in Scripture that would say that a man has ever obtained a

gift that he gets to use in his own leisure, but rather God uses him in moments and times

that God chooses.

And I just say that has never changed.

So I'm going to follow up with that because John and I are the only two continualists sitting on the stage.

So are you a continualist, Foskey?

You can't be in the middle, you doggone right.

See, that's why we enjoy this.

Does that make sense?

So, yeah.

And so, guys, I want to read a passage of Scripture to you real quick too.

First of all, is it distinctive?

That's a great question because I do believe, personally believe with conviction, that the

apostles did have a distinct role,

but not necessarily distinctive in their gifting.

OK, does that make sense?

So I think God, I mean, there was a reason when Jesus told Peter upon this rock.

I do believe that means Peter's confession upon this rock, I'll build my church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it.

I believe it's an orthodox interpretation that it's on Peter's profession, but I think it is also talking about upon those

early foundational principles of those apostles that they did have a distinctive role in bringing in the birth of the church.

OK, there's chosen for that specific role and chosen to die, chosen to be martyred.

So but at the same time, when it comes to spiritual gifts, this simplified

it for me a long time ago.

When I get the first Corinthians chapter 12, and I just don't see that this ever changes

until Jesus comes.

It says and there's there's well, going back, talking about the body of Christ.

Now, concerning spiritual gifts, I do not want you to be uninformed.

So he's writing to the church of Corinth.

He's not talking about a testimony of the apostles.

He's just writing to the church.

And I want you to be uninformed.

You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to mute idols, in other words, false gods.

However, you were led.

Therefore, I want you to understand that no one speaking in the spirit of God ever says Jesus

is accursed.

And no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

So we know that.

And we we would die over that text right there.

That is that is doctrine.

And so that's that's what I struggle with.

And somehow that becomes doctrine.

But then we go to verse four and something changes.

And so convictionally for me, when I'm reading this, I see him writing to the church.

And now there's a variety of gifts.

But the same spirit, there's a variety of services.

But the same Lord and there's variety of activities.

But the same God who empowers them all in everyone to each is given the

manifestation of the spirit.

For what reason?

For the common good of the church.

And I think that's something that we really miss, because if there is a gift of the spirit in someone's life, it's

for the common good of everyone.

It's not for the exaltation of the individual.

And that's where I think we all agree here is that that's where the abuses come in.

And when someone takes a gift and says, look how great I am because I have this extra special thing that nobody

else can do.

Well, then that's not for the common good of the body.

OK, and so for the common good to each is given the manifestation of the spirit.

For what is given to the spirit, the utterances of wisdom to know there's the utterance of knowledge according to the same

spirit.

When I think about that, and it may be a stretch in an interpretation, but there you're we're up here giving

you answers that should be prompted by the Holy Spirit within us.

The truth that the Holy Spirit is hidden in our hearts.

When you ask us questions, we're giving utterances of knowledge and utterances of wisdom to you from the word of God.

And then you should anything we utter to you should test by the word of God.

OK, always.

I don't care if you're your best friend as much as I love Claude.

If he tells me something was able to call, let's get the word and dig and find out vice and vice versa.

So then to this other spirit of healing, to another, the spirit working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another, the ability to

distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another interpretation of tongues.

And notice what I appreciate in this is that it's not divided.

That's where a lot of times there is an attempt to put a divide there.

And I understand why.

But evidently, the Holy Spirit has said these things have to be good for the common good of the body.

Because verse 11 says not just some of these, but all these are empowered by one in the

same spirit.

Now, here's the cool part.

And I quoted this in the message that I preached today, who being in the Holy Spirit, who

apportions to each one individually as he wills.

And so that's where for me, I'm a cautious, continuous, I guess you could say, or

continuous with a seat belt.

The reason I say that is I'm okay with saying that it is not normative for someone to stand

up in church and give a message in tongues.

I don't think that's a normative practice.

It's not happened today, all day.

We've been preaching about the Holy Ghost all day.

I can speak in Spanish.

Yes, that's fine.

I'll explain in Spanish.

That's fine, yes.

And he'll translate for me.

But no, so...

Exactly.

Exactly.

So, obviously, then we can safely say that it's not been the will of the Holy Spirit

that someone here would get up and speak in an unknown tongue.

And there's a reason.

Because it's absolutely not necessary.

We have the written Word of God, and we all speak the same language.

So therefore, let's just preach the Word of God.

But by all means, I think we've seen men today gifted by the Holy Spirit to

expound and preach on the Word of God.

And you're going to see that through the rest of the weekend.

Agreed?

So why would God gift individuals on this stage or individuals in this congregation to do such a

thing?

Why?

I think everybody has been infrinted from that today.

Amen?

It's been for the calm and good of the whole body.

And so then we can sit back and say, huh, all right, the Holy Spirit's doing something there.

You know?

And I think that's okay.

So I rest in the fact that God is good.

Jesus is good.

The Holy Spirit is good.

The Father is sovereign.

The Son is sovereign.

And right here it says the Holy Spirit gives gifts as He wills.

So I think it takes a very—to me, it's a very complicated question because we can get into apostolic

age and we can give really long answers.

But I think the two continuous, that's where we would rest in those two things.

That at the end of the day, the Holy Spirit did really unique things in

this age.

There's no doubt.

And I personally think He's still doing very unique things in the world today that no one knows of.

And then I think He does very beautiful, ordinary things.

How about the gift of love one another?

You know, bear one another's burdens.

Pray you one for another.

The calling to be an intercessor for the body of Christ, for the calm and good.

I know that's not in the list, but I still think that's a calling and a gifting and a conviction of the Holy

Spirit to do such things.

Because I would say anything that we get to do that's of the Word of God would be a gift from God.

So Jonathan and I were—so I'm a

cessationist.

I think I'm probably maybe one of the hardest line cessationists of all the men up here.

And Jonathan and I, after lunch, we were sitting in my car and we were having a conversation about this.

One thing—and this probably doesn't have to do so much with the question, but I just want to put this out

there.

Because one thing, no matter how hard line cessationist you are, one thing that you

cannot do is deny that God can and does work miracles.

The fact that any of us are here today is a testament to that fact.

And so no matter where you stand on the issue, the one thing that you need to

recognize is that God did a miraculous thing in your heart when you were

His enemy.

And He is still working, not just that kind of miracle,

but all kinds of things today.

And sometimes we can mix—and we were talking about, well, what do we mean when we're a continuationist or when

we're a cessationist?

We have to be careful not to go to the place where you say, God doesn't

do anything anymore.

That's absolutely false.

And I would be very cautious

to call somebody like that my brother.

I would have to find out more about what they mean by that.

And I think a lot of times that's what's going on.

Sometimes it's semantics—not always, but sometimes.

And so I guess I'm kind of answering the earlier question, where do we draw the line between cessationist and continuationist?

Like Claude said, where the word draws the line.

God still works miracles today.

And therein lies the challenge for us as believers to put in the work,

to study out the Scriptures, to study out the meanings of the words, to look at

the—and to stretch ourselves.

It's a stretch to have to do that.

But when we do, stretching is beneficial to us as Christians.

Stretching is good for us because our knowledge, number one, practically our knowledge base

is expanded.

But spiritually, our love and our care and our concern for those who we communicate the

Scriptures to grows.

And y 'all heard him.

He just endorsed yoga.

I heard him.

He said stretching is good for us.

No.

Absolutely not.

Are we just going to go down?

So even—I would say, because I got the microphone in my hand and I'm making it short and everybody else can answer too.

We believe in a closed canon.

There's no one on this stage that believes in open canon where there is a continuation of the inspired and fallible Word of God that's

still going.

We believe in closed canon.

But I also just read from you those that have a gift of wisdom and a gift of knowledge.

So if, let's say, we were talking about earlier, doing marriage counseling.

When we're sitting down with someone, the Holy Spirit can work in that.

We can give someone wisdom, give someone knowledge that is a working of the Holy Spirit in us.

But how do they know that that's from the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit's not bypassed the Word of God.

That family goes back and tests it because we could give some kind of very pragmatic self

-help answer that's rooted in psychology and the farthest thing from Scripture.

Well, then that's not from the Holy Spirit.

So that's why I know.

And if you're asking about prophecy, Claude used that term.

And we across the state here would probably have some different conversations about that.

But I think to summarize it, we're in our conversations.

We had a little short snippet of a conversation about this earlier this week.

There's a difference between foretell and foretell.

And so foretelling would not be in

existence from a standpoint because then that should be written down as Scripture, as additional

prophecy outside of the Word of God.

Now, foretelling, I think, has to exist.

That is the preaching, the foretelling of the whole counsel of the Word of God.

But that means there is some nuance.

As Jay said a few minutes ago, there's some semantics, there's some definitions.

Like when Jay and I were conversational a while ago, and if I use the word an apostle, how

do you interpret that?

Well, you've got the apostles, and then the book of Hebrews says Jesus, our apostle.

So what's going on there?

And so it depends on if you're talking about just a sent one.

So I think there's those that could be considered, I don't call them this, I call them missionaries.

Those that are sent.

Jesus was a missionary to us.

But then there's the apostles, and I don't think there's any more because there was criteria for them.

They gave descriptors of, like, this has to see the risen Lord, and there's a job

description there.

And once that job description is forfeited, there's no one here alive today that's ever seen Jesus in the flesh alive.

So therefore there can't be any apostles in this room because you've already broken rule number one.

Okay, does that make sense?

So that's okay.

That's all right to say that office, as far as described in that, is not alive.

But then we're still having people with prophetic or

apostolic responsibility as far as sent ones.

Sent ones that's going to declare the saith the Lord from the word of God.

And so I think it's important that we define that.

But on the other side of it, there's a ton of conversation, too.

Going back to what Big John said earlier in the Q &A.

Specifically, the gift of prophecy is asked about in that question.

I know it's not the popular answer, but it's still the true answer.

What is being spoken of?

Who is being spoken of when we talk about prophecy?

And if it does not point to Jesus Christ as Savior and

Lord of the world and even His church,

it's not biblical prophecy.

Biblical prophecy, Old Testament, pointed to who?

New Testament prophecy points to who?

Jesus.

Here's the thing.

If we let the Scripture draw the line, we let the Scripture define the term prophecy, it's not

some hidden knowledge about an individual.

It is the knowledge of God spoken out.

Revelation 19 .6 draws this line for us.

Revelation 19 .10.

John said, Then I fell down at his feet to worship him.

But he said to me, You must not do that.

I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And he said, Worship God.

For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

It is the embodiment of prophecy.

So it again goes back to something big I think that we'll all take out of here is that

we let the Word draw the lines for us.

We let the Word shape the frame.

And then we don't mold the Word to our ideas or our understanding,

but our understanding and our ideas are to be molded and shaped to the Word.

I think I'll pass it on to you.

But I'm just curious if maybe this person's asking, well, can I hear from the

Holy Spirit to decide what kind of job I should have or who should I marry or something like that?

And the answer to that question is really very simple.

Is it godly?

Is the person that you're looking to marry, is that a godly man or woman of God, somebody who is faithful?

John MacArthur once talked about something that made me laugh and I think might make you guys laugh too.

He said, I don't know why we complicate this marriage thing.

Are you Christian?

Are you Christian?

Line up and pick one.

We test that by the Word of God.

And so it's the same thing when we're making any decisions.

Is this going to honor God?

Is this going to lead me to grow the kingdom further?

Should I pick this job or this job?

Well, is this honoring to God and is it going to help me provide for my family?

If the answer is yes to both, then there's your answer.

I don't want to take too much time.

I'll make this very quick.

I think going back to the heart of the question, it's actually a question of, and I'm going to use the word, John,

don't throw me the word, the doctrine of revelation.

Because what the question is, I think, in the heart of it is the question of is

God continuing to give revelation?

And biblically, there are two different categories of revelation,

what we call general revelation, which is to all men, and then special revelation, which is given by God in

particular ways.

Hebrews 1, in times past, God in diverse ways spoke to our fathers and the prophets.

And those diverse ways included everything from dreams to the Urim and the Thummim, to all of these different

ways in which God interacted with his people.

And then he says, but in these times, he's spoken to us through his son.

And so does that mean that there has been a limitation in special revelation?

I think we can at least draw some inference in that, that there is a limitation in what form of revelation we now

possess.

But in general, what people, I think, are referring to specifically is what the reformers and

the Puritans and others have referred to as illumination.

And there is a difference between revelation, which is directly from God to the individual, either

through Scripture or some other means in the past, whether it's dreams or whatever, those are specific revelatory things that God did,

versus the illumination of the Spirit whereby he opens our eyes to something that maybe formerly we did

not see.

So in a conversation with someone that I'm counseling, like John mentioned, if I'm counseling someone, God may bring

to mind through the Spirit a Scripture or a truth or even an illustration

whereby the Spirit is still working in that moment.

But it's not revelation in the sense of God didn't give me a vision like he gave to Isaiah in chapter

6, or a dream like he gave to Joseph with his brothers.

He illuminated my spirit in that moment to that truth whereby he

used me for that purpose.

And I would see the distinction historically, how we would define that, is the distinction between revelation

and illumination.

And in that, only believers who have the Spirit receive the illumination of the Spirit.

And thereby, it is a gift of the Spirit that we are illumined to those truths.

I would say that if there was any addition to make to that, would be that

in a way of bypass, as the question was worded, God's not going to contradict

his word.

So if someone claims that they've received some kind of extra -biblical

revelation from God, then the first question you'd have is, well, let's see where it lines up in Scripture.

And even if it did line up in Scripture, then you'd have to ask yourself, well, what is the purpose of you sharing it?

Does it seek to exalt Christ?

You give the old sniff test.

If it don't, throw it away.

But I'm afraid that most of the time where we run into this question, probably more on

my camp than y 'all's camp, maybe not in your camp either, would be where some folks,

truthfully, I think, are trying to seek extra -biblical manifestations of God's presence when they're

not following biblical principles in the first place.

And that's extremely frustrating to talk to people who just come off

as weird.

I don't know another word to put it.

That's a biblical term, isn't it?

Weird.

I'm getting geared up.

Touchy.

So my point is that if somebody would ask me a question

about them in a context that you're talking about counseling them, I'm not

saying that God can't lay something on your heart in that moment that speaks to them

in the moment that is difficult to quantify what this means in Scripture.

But I doubt very seriously that you would actually know that you said it.

Let me give you an example so that you don't think I'm a heretic.

So the other day, we were talking about something that I had forgotten had happened to me.

Many years ago, I had a couple of my kids with me.

We were leaving a church service or a band practice, and it was terrible weather, and

I wasn't going home to cook.

I swung by the place where you can get pizza already cooked, get in the car, and go home, right?

That was my plan.

As I walked into this store, I grabbed some pizzas, and there's a fella standing there with his pizzas getting cold by the door, right?

And these pizzas really aren't that good when they're hot.

They're terrible when they're cold.

And I'm thinking, man, you're wasting your time.

I mean, you are on the clock, my man.

So I'm fixing to walk out the door, and he does something loving to me.

He says, hold on a second.

I just saw lightning strike before you pulled up right outside this door, and it was terrifying.

And the lady behind the counter, she said, I've never seen nothing like it.

It was the brightest light, and it made all kinds of racket.

And I said, okay.

And I opened the door.

He said, did you not hear what I said?

I said, look, man, I've got hungry kids in the car.

I'm hungry.

If God strikes me with lightning and takes me home, I'll just go to heaven.

I think I'll be all right.

If I make it home, having not been struck by lightning or died in a car wreck, I'm going to sit with my wife

and children, and we're going to watch a stupid movie, and we're going to eat some crappy pizza.

I call that a win -win, right?

We're going to have a good evening either way.

Either I'm going to glory, or we're going to eat pizza, and we're going to have time with the family.

And I said, you have a good day.

And if that's something that bothers you, then I think you need to question your life decisions.

And I wasn't thinking overly scripture.

I wasn't trying to be, you know, a Berean or anything in that moment.

I go out, and I get in the truck, and I go to the house, and we watch a terrible movie, and we eat some subpar pizza.

And about two weeks later, I'm going to Walmart after church, and I get out of the truck, and this guy walks up to me.

I don't recognize him.

And he says, man, he said, I don't think you realize what you did to me.

I said, what did I do to you?

I don't even know you.

He said, the other day, it was storming, and as he was talking to me, I remembered seeing his face, but he had less

fear on his face this time.

And he said, whenever you walked out, he said, that man's right.

I'm going to hell if I die.

And he gave his life to the Lord.

This was not some souped -up, Ray Comfort evangelism moment.

This was, I'm hungry, this pizza's getting cold, it's

raining outside, my wife's texting me, where are you at, right?

So, would you call that a revelation?

No, right?

That's the sovereignty of the Holy Ghost.

So, all I'm saying is, don't discredit when God is

talking to somebody, and you walk by and say the right thing at the right time.

That's not supernatural revelation, but His salvation is supernatural.

And so, it's possible that God do something that's not 100

verse 1, followed by verse 2, verse 3, but nothing I said was unbiblical.

It was not handled very carefully, right?

And God can save people even whenever the fellow who's sharing the gospel is stupid.

And if anybody makes t -shirts, I want angry evangelists made for God.

Holy Ghost made for it.

Someone comes up and says, hey, the Lord told me, or I've got a message for

you.

Response.

Just from, obviously, our continuations brothers, and our cessation brothers who brought that along.

So, why did he tell you and not me?

That's probably where I would start, because that's where you're getting into,

just to take things way into the deep end there.

You're getting into the Old Testament prophets that thus say, the Lord on your behalf.

And I do not think that that is how the gift of prophecy manifests in this age,

is that God gives new revelation on the behalf of all the people of God through one person.

But we have the whole counsel of God written down in this book for all people.

It's not contained in Jonathan's skull.

It's not contained in mine.

It's in here.

And the gospel is the great mystery that has now been revealed.

And so, when we talk about the secret knowledge, and God told me this, and God told me that,

I'm cautiously skeptical, because, as I said, why did he tell you and not me?

And also, how do we quantify any of that?

Because I had a guy tell me when I was a teenager that God told him I was supposed to quit my job.

And he knew that because he had a dream and he saw a horse.

Dead serious.

This is not something I made up.

This was Bible study in the youth group.

And that sent me into a tailspin at 16 years old.

I do not have a horse.

I'm allergic to horses.

I got donkeys.

Yeah,

I've actually had this happen to me a couple

of times.

I say, thank you.

I listen, and I test it against the word of God, and I see what happens.

I had this happen one time, and the dude was just wrong.

So, obviously, God didn't tell him that.

Now, in 2007, I was...

Let me put this...

I was walking down 321 in Lincolnton towards...

Y 'all know where that is?

You shouldn't be walking down there.

You know, big highway, 65 miles an hour, big trucks.

Posted speed limit.

Much faster.

You know, head hurting, stomach churning.

Bad decisions were made the night before.

Just gotten out of a lockup, and I was walking to work the next morning.

And I had somebody stop by and pick me up on the side of the road.

And he said that he had just got done preaching that morning.

And he thought that he should come pick me up.

And I was going down the road, and he said, you know, God changed my life.

I believe he's going to change your life and turn you into a preacher.

Now, I don't know why he said that.

But, here we are.

So, if somebody says, I've got a word for the Lord from you, test everything against the word of

God.

What doesn't stick, throw it away.

And what does, just know that God is always in control.

God is always doing what God is going to do.

And you can trust in him, even if you can't trust in everybody you come in contact with.

So, I want to thank everybody for your questions.

Thank you for your patience.

Thank you for coming today.

We appreciate you, and we love you.

And as long as we continue to speak truth and love, we're going to

continue to have these conversations with each other.

And hopefully share them with you.

Because, don't get me wrong, I have a defense on some of the things that they were saying.

And that's okay.

And as long as we keep talking truth and love, we'll keep having the conversation.

So, stay tuned.

Let me say this.

I hope everybody understands that some of these guys were really quiet while we did a lot of talking.

Even some of the stuff we shared, we're sharing from this side of the perspective.

There are different perspectives, respectfully.

And I hope we demonstrated that today.

Because they know I've got to leave tonight, and so they're letting me do a lot of talking.

So now you can hear from all the other ones.

So, yeah, I've got to leave tonight, but thank you guys.

But we want to demonstrate that to you.

That even in Among Differences, we have tremendous love, awe, and respect for each other.

The ministries that each one of us have a responsibility for.

So I wanted to say that.

The second thing I wanted to say is we love you guys.

I'm praying for you.

Please pray for us.

I've still got to travel back tonight.

But we all are easy to find.

We are all easy to find through social media, through church websites, through email,

through those kind of things.

And so, if you have a continuation of questions, ask your pastor first.

We believe in the authority that God has given pastors to shepherd flocks.

So ask your pastor first.

But we all trust each other.

If you want a different perspective, then tell your pastor, Hey, I want to talk to Big John.

How can I get a hold of him?

Or I'd like to ask Robert Kniep.

Or I'd like to ask a Jay or a Dan.

We can help you get in contact with them.

So please do that.

We welcome that.

Also, when you watch our podcast, The Laborer's Podcast, or Truth and Love with Dan and Robin's

stuff, feel free to pop a comment or question in immediately.

You don't have to wait.

We hope you'll join us on those things and find our schedules and be a part of those conversations.

Because this is what it's like all the time.

Have you enjoyed this tonight?

I mean, is it good?

I think it's good.

I think it's helpful.

This is what we do all the time to sharpen one another.

And we don't do it just for our own health.

We're trying to equip the body of Christ for that too.

So we're not hard to find.

Look us up.

Ask questions.

Keep asking questions and keep growing in the Lord.

Amen.

Will you close us in prayer?

Yeah, please.

Thank you, Father, so much.

Let's stand together.

Lord, we stand in honor of you and thankful for you.

Thank you for your presence here today.

Thank you for your Word that's been preached.

Thank you, Lord, for every man of God that you've called to be here to lead in this conference,

for every person of God that's your children in this whole room, Lord, as we equip one

another and feed one another and shepherd one another, Lord.

I pray that you'll just continue to stir us up about the importance of you, O Holy Spirit,

that we will not ignore you, that we will be unified in you, that we

will have empowered preaching that comes from you, that we will have empowered evangelism that

only can come from you, and, Lord, that you would give us clarity as we grapple

through the mysteries of the Holy Spirit.

And we also give you praise for there is many more things that are plain

and clear and known to us that we can cling to and be unified in.

So we thank you for that, Lord Jesus.

Thank you, Holy Spirit.

So empower this, your people, that we may be faithful walking with you and not according to the

flesh.

In Jesus' name we pray.

Amen and amen.