June 3, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Pastor Josh Fryman on Rectifying Non-Calvinist’ Misconceptions of Sovereign Grace

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's.

Our host, Chris Arnzen. This is Chris Arnzen on the radio. This is Chris Arnzen on the radio. I just discovered that that melody goes right along with that. My name is Chris Arnzen and welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of the planet earth. I'm so excited to have a very dear friend of mine on Iron Sharpens Iron today, Pastor Joshua Fryman of Community Baptist Church in Riverhead, Long Island.

Pastor Josh dodged a bullet because I was going, well he was going to be my pastor if providentially I had not moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, so I'm sure that the church there in Riverhead is far better off now that I'm living far, far away.

But it's my honor and privilege to have for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron ever, Pastor Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church. It's great to have you with us, brother. Thank you, brother.

Calvinism, Reformed Theology, and the Doctrines of Grace

And today we are going to be discussing rectifying misconceptions about Calvinism, which is also nicknamed Reformed Theology, the Doctrines of Grace, and several other types of nicknames that it has received over the years.

And basically the Doctrines of Grace or Calvinism is, to sum it up in a nutshell, this system of theology teaches that God alone saves sinners because sinners cannot help save themselves. Wouldn't you agree with that summary?

Yes. And so tell us first of all, Pastor Josh, why is it that you wanted to discuss this topic rectifying misconceptions about Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace?

Well first of all, how grateful I am. When you started singing I thought, oh that's not going to go through. So I'm glad you started talking. But there are actually a couple reasons. When you contacted me before and asked me if I would consider it, which I do count an honor, so thank you again.

I did pray about it, and I was trying to think what are things in my life that have influenced me, that have helped me. As you know my background, not Calvin, you know how I feel about the term. Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 2 that we don't follow after man's teaching, but the Holy Ghost teaches comparing spiritual things with spirit.

You know, really no true doctrine ought to have a man's name attached to it, and so with anything that would have a man's name to it, there's an odd if it is wrong. So as I prayed about what subject, a couple things came to mind, but this was one that came to my mind as far as dealing with a non-Calvinist misconception.

I had misconceptions, and the more I studied Scripture, the more I was able to get through. And that's because one of the misconceptions, being Calvinist, unless you read books that aren't the Bible, and therefore, as I began to study Scripture on these topics, more owned by Calvinists, at least that was my perception, I began to see them in the Bible, and more knowledge of them, and beginning to realize that obviously truth didn't start in the 1500s with John Calvin.

These things were already there, they were always there. Calvinism began to fade away, began to kind of be burnt up in light of Scripture, and I began to understand a little bit more about the doctrine.

You know, now I know Calvinism, I would say I know Bible doctrine, and my hope is, my desire is, what happened to me, it has to happen to the truth, that no one else, I know them. They're missing out, and good fellow people, and light on some misconceptions, and basically Spurgeon, who of course, this is what, yes, there are some that believe it, there are some that would go to an extreme, what I've used is, it's really not about him, and what I've said to people...

Or Jehovah's Witnesses, for that matter, which is the classic example of door-to-door.

Yeah, sure, sure. What my burden on this was, my desire, I guess, would be...

Well, it's interesting that providentially, picking up on what you were saying, that non-Calvinists typically say, you would never become a Calvinist if you were just reading the Bible. You would have to have picked that up by reading an extra canonical book, which was written by a Calvinist.

But it's interesting that even those folks believe in the necessity of teachers, and very few of them would say that a person should go off in the woods all alone with their Bible, and not have teachers in churches where they are members, and whose authority they are under, and so on.

But providentially, through God's providence, I came to the doctrines of grace when I stubbornly was refusing to even consider it after becoming a new believer. Someone gave me a tract, George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley on election, and it wasn't George Whitefield that convinced me of the doctrines of sovereign grace, it was the scriptural quotes that George Whitefield used.

Because I didn't, I could care less who George Whitefield was, I didn't even know who George Whitefield was at that time, I didn't know if he was somebody living or dead, I didn't know who John Wesley was, I was a brand spankin' new, born-again believer, and so it was the biblical citations, and taken in context, that the Lord used to penetrate my heart on these these matters.

And wouldn't you say that the big stumbling block for non-Calvinists, or those who disagree with the doctrines of sovereign grace or Reformed theology, is that it seems that most Christians are completely fine with God being in control, except they do not want him to be in control over salvation.

That seems to be where they want to draw the line. Am I am I am incorrect in.

Gathering that assumption? Yeah, election, and it was the doctrine of election, formed the image of his son, and you, I'm paraphrasing, by the way that doesn't mean that you can, you could, by the way.

You're not rambling, you're being very insightful with your answers. I will, I'll be sure to let.

You know when we have to make a station break. And reprobation, I was with a man a few months ago, and could we believe in prophethood in the Bible, and I think that false gospels that are being put out, this low expectation of what a Christian is, what they should be doing, what they should not be doing, and you know, basically why I said a prayer, you know, when I was three, and you know, I know I've lived for the devil, you know, my whole life, but you know, you can't never be unsaved.

And that whole misconception about God's saving power, God's converting power, God's transforming power, is a tragedy. And what happens when you embrace election, okay, and again, I'm not Calvinism, no, we're not talking about Calvinism, we're talking about a Bible doctrine of election.

When you embrace election, you realize not only did God save chapter one, but by God's grace, I was separated from my mother's womb, and called by his grace to reveal his son in me, that I might preach among the heathen.

Paul knew that it was before he was born, so that means God's not loving, and really, that's one of the things I wanted to talk to you about today, was the main ones. Well, yeah, I could go on with those three, and just to say something about the love of God.

Very quickly, it's interesting how some of the most vehement opponents of sovereign grace are people who also firmly believe in the biblical truth of hell, and yet, at the same time, they militate against reformed theology, or the doctrines of grace, or that which is nicknamed Calvinism.

They militate against it because they say that that teaches the falsehood that God loves certain people more than others. Well, I don't know how anybody could believe in the reality of hell, and believe at the same time that God loves every human that ever lived and.

Ever will live equally. It doesn't make any sense at all. Well, Kevin, again, this is why it's important to have Bible. The one thing, my father-in-law, I trained under him, and one of the things that he was, that has helped me, because this is why it matters to have Bible that supports, because what happens is you're going to get into doctrines, and people say, well, I know what the Bible says, but, and well, you can't do that, and it says right in Deuteronomy 7, the Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, and about knowing that God loves us.

Paul narrowed it down even more than that. John 3, 16, for God so loved the world, Ephesians chapter, Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. Go to Galatians chapter 2, look what Paul says, Christ died for me and gave himself for me.

Yeah, we ought to be very thankful. His love, whole thing, and it's a tremendous truth that we know that I love him because he first loved me. If he first loved us, we love him because he first loved us, and this is part of that.

I believe that's actually the first thing, is I told you that I have three points because I'm a preacher. They're alliterated because I'm Baptist, but about that, if you believe that it somehow distorts God's love, it doesn't.

What it does say is it goes beyond sprinkle dust that's individuals. It goes beyond that, and what a wonderful privilege. And by the way, that's not because we did anything. I mean, I didn't earn that.

If you me before I was saved, you know, I know exactly how the Apostle Paul felt, but in one regard, I can't. It's when he described himself as the chief of sinners. That's me. I know who I was and what I was before God saved me, and there's nothing that would promote in knowing that God loves his own, and that ought to give us, and this is why this matters, that if you say, well, you know, we say, God loves me, and God loves...yes, absolutely, he does, and we are our love for God.

It means we are our obedience to him, but if you read what Solomon wrote in Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, perhaps, I'm not remembering exactly, but Solomon says, he said there's an evil in the land, and the evil was walking, and what he was saying was when people are out of their roles, not arrogant about it, but when Solomon said that, he said, no, the servants don't belong on horseback, the princes do, and the princes don't belong walking, the servants do, and we have somehow become very wimpy, but God loves us, and you know, we have a...there's a way that we're supposed to live better than anybody, but it does make us better off, and there's nothing wrong with being thankful for that, and one of the great driving motivations for that is God's love to the Lord in the end of Exodus.

Again, forgive me, but he said, I'm not going to go...it's the same text, Exodus chapter 33, where he says, show me your glory. Now, what happens is this, is Moses said, your presence with us is the only thing that separates us from everybody else, livestock, everyone, but we do.

Something that Moses held onto was God's presence with us makes all the difference, and we need to be reminded of that on a regular basis, that we're not just peculiar, not just set up, but we are special because we have the Lord with us, and that's such a wonderful thing, and so yes, does God love us?

Absolutely, and we ought to rejoice in that, and we ought to live for him because of that, and be thankful that that's what separates us from the world, God's presence with us, and that that love through salvation to the lost...

Yeah, it's interesting that one of the.

Greatest texts that points out God's unique love for his people, the church, is usually a text that is not even brought up in the quote-unquote Calvinist Armenian debate, Ephesians 5 .25, it's usually exclusively brought up when referring to marriages.

Yeah, and Paul said, husbands love your wives just as Christ loves the church, and gave himself up for her. Paul didn't say husbands love your wives and every other woman that ever lived just as God loves the church and everybody else who ever lived.

That's the only way that the text makes any sense, is if it's talking about a certain and specific person, and in this case, comparing it to a specific and.

Certain people with the church. Yeah, the program, and talk about something I believe very strongly, and I know that you're speaking of the idea of local church, you know, I believe in a universal relation, you know, but I do believe very strongly the Bible teaches that anytime you see church, equitably, it's a local assembly, and that's something I enjoy discussing as well, and maybe we can do that.

But no, I know exactly what you're saying, I know where you're... What portions of scripture, and this is another one of my, but no, this in my heart and my mind, am I going to choose election, and these verses show other examples for that.

Number one in Proverbs, and it's not a fool according to his own folly, or according to his folly. The very next verse itself, and then you go to Galatians chapter, bear his own burden, and then you find in the same chapter, no man seeketh out, and then you read Hebrews in chapter 11, you find out that what, diligently seek him, both.

Well, but... Yes, let's pick up on that right after the station break.

Okay. And if anybody has questions for Pastor Josh, you can send them by email. This is a live broadcast, so you can send the questions right away to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church in Riverhead, New York. ...think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at w-r-b-c-dot-u-s. That's w-r-b-c-dot-u-s. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron.

We are live, and if you'd like to email our guest Pastor Josh Fryman with any question on election, on the theology nicknamed Calvinism, Reform Theology, the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace, you can email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. So if you.

Could pick up right where you left off, Pastor Josh. And I realized that what Paul said was, right, now the way I viewed my beliefs was what I believe is spiritual, and if you disagree, it's unspiritual, you know.

And Peter said this in his epistle, he said that Paul writes some hard things to understand, taking what seems opposing truths, and he brings them together. Both can be time, and there's a lot of features, and you don't have to pick a side.

What you have to do is to rectify these truths that seem like they contradict, and allow him to give you the understanding that brings them together in such a beautiful way that exalts God every time.

This is a wonderful, wonderful thing. I would tell you, now, I realize it's not what makes this, but just as an experience to rent space, the Lord God's given us a beautiful building, and soon we were going to move in.

Yeah, we were tenants, as you know, for a couple, in a small office space, having this struggle in my heart, you know, this battle, right? Well, which is it? Which is it? Which is it? And it bothered me.

You know, you can talk to my wife, you probably remember from when you're on Long Island. I'm pretty emotional. I can cry pretty easily, but I was just praying what we're using for the church. I was praying about this very stuff.

I'm not making this up. I threw my different, you know, resources to try to read, and there was a guy who had written about Romans 9, and it gets to the part, do not read out loud. Why? You know, people that were there, it might look like one thing, and it really gave me pause.

I said, you know, that's dangerous, you know, when we do that. You can't do that. So, and by the way, that was another example. I don't know if you remember, but in Romans chapter 9, there's a parenthetical statement that, you know, about Jacob and Esau, and, you know, God knew Esau was going to be bad, and so that's why he said, or evil, and that's why he said he was going to hate him, but, and it says there, and again, forgive me for paraphrasing, I should be turning to these passages, but having not yet been born, neither having done good or evil, all right?

So it's amazing, because God knows man, amen? I mean, it's like he puts everything in Scripture that will help us with every single thing. So, you know, in case you think in there that it was, neither had they done good or evil, this was before they did anything, that God had said to John, love not the world, you know, we of course immediately go, I don't love neither of the things that are in the world, you know, because he knows man's heart, we're very quick to defend ourselves, but anyway, all the bases there.

I, one of my best friends in the ministry, he said, hey brother, how you doing? And I said, I'm doing well. He said, I don't know why, Lord just put you on my heart just now, and he said, I wanted to, I wanted to call and check in on you, see how you're doing, and I said, well, thank you, I appreciate that.

He said, anything I can pray for you about? And I said, brother, if you could, I said, I didn't tell him what it was, I just said, if you'd pray for me, there's a, I'm struggling with, I just want to make sure I come out on the right side of it.

You know, there's, this happened to me, and it was over the doctrine of election. Can I tell you what happened? Or like, you know, that proves it. In the middle of me praying about this, how did that man know to call me?

How did he, how, what made him say, here's what I went through? And that's what I mean by God glorifying, you know, only God can do things like that. And um, anyway, and so, uh, we, we ended up talking about it.

Hey, I remember too. Now I know why you moved to Carlisle. But anyway, he will, I want to go back to what you said. I hear a lot about this. I don't know why there's such a disdain for, uh, well, I think I do know why, but manipulating people.

And so I guess I understand it, but you know, it's in the Bible. I said, you know, people that say, well, you know, I got the Holy Spirit. In essence, what they're saying is God was excessive then in designing teaching and discipleship selves together.

And giving requirements for elders and teachers in the church.

Right. Right. So it's not, it's not God designed that on purpose because we need it. We need each other. We need edification that matters. And this who I can't even, I can't speak highly of enough. You know, this poor girl had to deal with all my, you know, do it with me, but just thinking, and, you know, Chris, you know, these guys, I'm not saying anything new.

And these are kind of nervous or afraid of Charles Spurgeon. These tremendous, what you do, you read a book, you're basically asking their opinions on that, on that subject. And you know, why wouldn't you want to know what Spurgeon or Lloyd-Jones or Boyce.

John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress.

Right. Right.

And a lot of people don't even realize that these men are quote, quote, or were quote, quote Calvinists because of their preconceived notions, wrong preconceived notions about the doctrines of grace, which is why you're on today.

Talking to my wife about, and we began to go through these. As a matter of fact, I'm reading Boyce.

Well, actually he's in heaven now.

Okay. Yes. All right, Chris, you're right again. I did know that, but you come to the end of his chapters and he says, what about you reader? Have you turned to God? Have you repented? Have you been saved?

And this kind of goes to my, is that somehow it, and you read these guys and you, you start talking to me like, Hey, I thought he was a Calvinist. Well, he is a Calvinist. Yeah. But he witnesses like, don't witness.

And I'll, let me give you an example. Recently, this whole thing with Bruce, I don't want to embarrass you. I'm not sure. Well, I'm not, perhaps that was an awkward segue. So what, what, uh, you know, talking about going to hell, you are a Calvinist.

You've launched him into popularity on Monday. Next thing you know, he's on national TV, non-Calvinist, have an animosity, a disdain for Islam, Muslims. And, uh, you know, Oh, we need to go wipe them out.

We need to make the Middle East a parking lot. He's over there, evangelizing them, witnessing to me. If you don't love the loss, you don't evangelize. And then the next breath, they're mocking, uh, sin or, or writing people off.

And yet I have no value. I know you, I don't know James White, but it, it, it just, it's, it's not true that, you know, this is be damned to hell. Let them leap over our bodies with the wonderful truth and wonderful confidence.

It gives us to evangelize thinking that it was all about me saying, or do the right thing, or someone will go to hell because out knowing that God's going to use me and my obedience today, many people as I can, it gives the increase.

You know, I'd rather go out in the power of God. That's why Jesus prefaced the great commission. And the great commission does not start with go ye therefore, go ye therefore, because that's why, that's why you go heralding this great charm.

What happens is when you, and, and what I, what I've said to some people in the past is that this modern, easy believism, quick prayer, what it's developed is it has more to do with anthropology. You know, yes, the gospel is for man, but it's from God and we need to remember who we represent when we give it.

We're not out there selling vacuum cleaners. There's a big difference. And, um, when we have that understanding that God is the one who sent on the numbers I get while I'm out and there's a big difference.

Yes. And, uh, of course God has promised in his inerrant word that people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation are going to be in heaven. Therefore we, uh, in fact, historically, missionaries have been more patient when they believed in the doctrines of sovereign grace and people that sent them out as missionaries have been more patient because of the fact that they are not relying on a person's articulate, uh, way of speech or, or his, uh, gimmickry or whatever he needs to do to, to lure people into saying a prayer.

They want to rely upon the sovereign God who's bringing about the increase. So we have to go to a break right now. It's our last break. And, uh, we do have a question from Tuscaloosa, Alabama that we are going to, uh, have pastor Josh address.

So we will be right back after these messages. And once again, the phone number is, I'm sorry, not the phone number. The email address is chrisarnsonatgmail .com.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron. Our guest today is pastor Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church in Riverhead, Long Island, New York, which is eastern Suffolk County.

I'm not exaggerating when I say it's one of the very few biblically sound churches that I was aware of after doing much research that is in eastern Suffolk County. Of course, my dear brothers at Wading River Baptist Church would be in that number without whom this program wouldn't exist.

Thank you very much for being our guest today, pastor Josh. We have a question from Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who basically asks about the perception that many non-Calvinists, many non-reformed people who reject the Doctrines of Grace, however you want to phrase it, they have about Calvinists being arrogant, snobbish, smarky, unconcerned about how the community or people around them view their personality, etc., etc.

Now, obviously, I could say that I know many Calvinists that do fit that description, but I know a lot of people from all backgrounds that fit that description.

Yeah, well, I like Ted because my alliterated outline was, and the reason for that, and I'll tell you because I was, there's this belief that you have to approach Scripture from the cerebral. If you believe it, then you think that you don't, and that's not the reality.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean the people that do understand you, you know, and some might, by the way, but you can't make the exception the rule. And I would say this, I like Pauletian or electionist, not on the other side of it either, but I love the Doctrine of Election.

I wish, oh man, how I wish that we could have this doctrine, you know, and this arrogancy that comes from it, but it's the last thing that would enter the mind of someone who believes that we're nothing apart from God.

Here's the example I've given in the past. This is man for you. God, in His grace, allowed the entire population to have the truth. Adam and Eve, Noah and his family. Both times, what happened? Man rebelled against God.

That's who we are, right? That's what we will always do. We would never be saved apart from God intervening. That's a great word, intervening. From God drawing us and convicting us, sealing us, and saying we have none of, you know, oh, I've discovered, or saying they believe.

And if anything, it causes one greater humility, because we realize it's not about us, it's about we are not. Yeah, that is a misconception. And here, I'll tell you something else, and if I could just speak to this real quick.

One of the things that men miss, and ladies too, by fearing Calvinism or Calvinists, is they miss the people. We have some in our church. By the way, one of the best soul winners, and well, I say in our church.

She's not a member yet, but anyway, this guy's witnessing all this. And there is some fear that because you like certain people that, you know, well, all right, let me change my opinion about this because, you know, they believe that or, you know, we're not talking about.

Anyway, I just had to get that in there. Sorry about that.

I'm sorry. I just wanted to, I don't know if you've finished your train of thought there, but I wanted to have you perhaps clarify a misconception that some folks may have about something that you said earlier about how could these great Calvinists of history be heretics, because God did not withhold his blessings from them.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry. And I just wanted to have you distinguish that from there is a heresy that is very prevalent. In fact, I'm having tomorrow a guest who has come out of the Word of Faith movement.

He was not only a pastor in the Word of Faith movement, but he was also a occasional TV guest host on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which is a haven for the heresy of the Word of Faith movement. And he is now a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And obviously a lot of people perpetuate the lie that something can't be false if somebody is monetarily blessed, if a church has thousands of members, it can't be wrong. Yeah. Joel Osteen being the pastor of one of the largest churches in the United States, etc.

And I wanted you to clarify that. Yeah, well, first of all,.

McShane died in his 20s. Yeah, so it has nothing to do with a prosperity type truth, like, oh, if you believe, right, God's going to do great things for you. What I meant was, we can't talk about tremendous...

Well, if that's true, and I love this about Spurgeon, everyone loves Spurgeon. You ever notice that? Everyone loves Spurgeon, everybody likes Spurgeon, but here's why, all right? And I mean, I'm like, I'm an authority.

This is my... I believe it's not why everyone loves him. Spurgeon was a Calvinist, yes, but that's not... Spurgeon made much of Christ, loves him. And that's what I want for my ministry, it's what I want for every individual.

That's the goal here. I told you this last week, I said... Yes, excellent, excellent. Yeah, and it's just truth. And that's really what... To promote truth, if you don't mind.

As long as it's under 40 seconds. By the way, I do want to have you back next week if you're free.

Okay, sounds good. We'll do it next... Today was that you can fellowship, you can learn from other people, especially people who are Calvinists, and not to have any myths or understandings about... through some resources I wanted to recommend, authors, but anyway,.

We'll do that, and we'll do that another time. And put your website, please, for our listeners. Communitybaptistchurch .net. Communitybaptistchurch .net. We look forward to having you back next week, Pastor Josh Fryman.

I also want to let our listeners know about a couple of other valuable resources. Solid Ground Christian Books has just become today a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron. Their website is solid-ground-books .com.

That's solid-ground-books .com. And the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Services, which for many years has been distributing the finest in Christian literature, cvbbs .com. C-V as in Valley, B-B-S as in BibleBookServices .com.

I want to thank you so much, Pastor Josh. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want to have all of you listening always remember for the rest of your lives the great words, the precious words of Christopher Love, who is a Puritan, that I concluded the vast majority of my radio broadcasts with when I aired this program from 2006 through 2011.

I just want you to all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner. God bless.