SRR #50 | Answering Questions Christians Have For Other Christians Prt 2

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July 6, 2017

00:02: I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. These are these are wolves
00:11: Truth be told that I oftentimes Lay awake at night trying to figure out how I can get rid of wolves in the church
00:23: We are unabashedly Unashamedly Clarkian and so the next few statements that I'm going to make
00:29: I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time and This is what we do at simple riff around the radio.
00:35: You know, we are polemical and polarizing Jesus style I would first say that to characterize
00:50: What we do as fashion is itself Fashion, it's not hate its history.
00:57: It's not fashion. It's the Bible Jesus said woe to you and men speak well of you for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way
01:11: As opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness? It is on we're taking the gloves off.
01:23: It's time to battle All right,
01:29: I want to welcome everybody back to separate from on the radio basically, this is part two from last week and we are going to pick up with the
01:39: Video that we were watching last week the questions that Christians have for other
01:45: Christians and we're gonna play that in a little bit, but we have Carlos with us who's able to join us from the beginning on this episode
01:53: Carlos is our other co -host and Joseph is our other co -host. They're both here with me now
01:58: So one of the things that I wanted to do with Carlos Montijo was read a couple of emails
02:08: So we got an email from Adrian Clark, I don't know if that guy is related to Gordon Clark, but that would be awesome if he was
02:19: I don't think he is because he didn't say anything about it But he says thank you for your ministry greetings from Spirit -of -life
02:27: Church in Bristol UK. So Man, I'm just so grateful and I thank
02:33: God that we're speaking to somebody in Bristol The United Kingdom.
02:39: I mean, that's that's pretty I think that's pretty awesome So thank God for modern technology that can be used for the glory of God We pray that that this ministry would continue to do that I'm very grateful for all of the contributors that we have on this podcast all of the the co -hosts
02:57: You know, it's been it's been a wonderful blessing. We are planning on Doing an interview with Tom Geodatis from the
03:07: Trinity Foundation. I hope that I said his name, right? I may not have and then I'm also hoping to interview somebody from the
03:16: Berean Beacon, which is a ministry of Richard Bennett and We've talked about him in the past We're hoping to get on some some guys who do street evangelism and interview them
03:32: I think that's going to be great So we're really we're planning ahead and we're looking to promote other people.
03:40: We're looking to promote other ministries We're just so grateful for what God has done And so with all that being said we wanted to go ahead and read another email
03:50: Carlos did you want to lead us into this? Sure. Yeah, I don't know why this is so hard, you know this whole synergism and Monarchism stuff it shouldn't be that difficult
04:03: But we got a I guess a sort of complaint email from Chris Harris of the Council of Google Plus about our comments on Episode 47 we were showing people showing our listeners that you know
04:18: Paul statements about conversion being synergistic being very misleading and just not a
04:24: It's not a good way to explain things from the monarchistic perspective, which is a Calvinist or reform perspective and so He kind of explained this in the email, so I'll just go ahead and start reading it
04:37: This is so he says in your episode number 47 recently you guys accused Paul Kaiser Who is from conversations from the porch of putting forth synergism in the system?
04:47: I? Think he met the reformed or dos salutas This was untruthful. I found it rather concerning that Carlos would continue to conflate the term synergistic with the system of synergism
04:59: Like the like when Carlos at the 103 mark in the episode suggests that to use the term synergistic in relation
05:07: With conversion somehow would mean that one is affirming that faith precedes regeneration what
05:13: Paul never once implied the theological system of synergism and Again, I think
05:19: I don't know if I'm just gonna comment here We can comment here because the emails a little bit long so He said
05:26: I that I was conflating the term synergistic with the system of synergism, and that's actually That was actually our entire point.
05:34: It's not me who was conflating it. It was Paul First of all anybody who knows basic English, and I'm not doing this to insult.
05:42: You know Chris or anything But if you know and understand English synergistic is just the adjective form of the noun synergism, so I mean or synergist
05:51: So I mean I don't see what I don't see what the point is there Because we made our point very clear that Paul was trying to describe the correct view
06:00: But using synergism to describe monergism is actually extremely misleading
06:06: And inappropriate because synergism means something completely different right yeah it's pretty it's pretty funny because he put up a
06:16: Facebook post and he said listening to SRR 47 this was this was public it was a Facebook post
06:22: And he says you guys are at around the 54 mark to find synergistic with the theological belief of synergists why?
06:31: For the very same reason that synergistic or Synergistic is just the adjective form of the noun synergism, and so I would submit that you would have to redefine
06:43: Synergism or providing your own definition for synergism if you want to define it in a in a way that that is different from what has traditionally been known as the theological system of Synergism it's to me.
06:59: It was it was pretty baffling, but um He you know he did accuse us of twisting what
07:05: Paul said I asked him for a direct quotes that that would show that we we did twist what
07:13: Paul said I don't think that we we twisted what Paul said I Pointed out to him that you said at the 59 minute mark around the 45 seconds
07:22: You said Vincent put his finger on the problem because he said maybe we have a different understanding of synergistic
07:30: Because synergism is the Arminian view Then he went on to say I do think Paul was perhaps explaining the right position
07:37: But using the wrong terms to explain it and so I tried to point out to him that you know we didn't twist what
07:44: Paul said and The other thing is he he gave us Burkhoff. He wanted us to Read Lewis Burkhoff because he thinks that Lewis Burkhoff Supports the view that that conversion is synergistic and What I got from that is a
08:03: Burkhoff actually doesn't use the word synergistic in support of The Reformed view, but when
08:10: Burkhoff uses the the term synergistic It's in the negative sense and he actually talks about it being the
08:17: Arminian view if I remember correctly You you sent the quotes And and we were reading through Burkhoff and we even thought that Burkhoff may have contradicted himself a little bit because he talks about Well, yeah, we can read the quotes right now.
08:32: We're gonna read the quotes and everything But before we dive too much into that I did want to kind of just say something more generally about this whole back -and -forth discussion
08:43: Like I'm getting a little bit tired of this, you know I'm getting really tired of having to Resay or restate what we actually said and people twisting everything that we're saying
08:53: It's getting very annoying and it's just sloppy for people to make these claims in these these accusations that are not true
09:00: So I'm gonna commend or you know, I would encourage you know, mr.
09:06: Harris to listen more carefully to what we're saying and To to be more careful and in if you have an address if you're trying to address a concern
09:17: From us like actually represent what we're saying accurately because that's not true Like what you just said you gave the timestamps and you we've made it very clear
09:26: What what our problem is you should not use the term synergism to describe monergism plain and simple we gave you
09:34: You should not use the term synergistic because you said synergism and yeah, it doesn't matter
09:40: You you shouldn't use any of it to describe monergism or the monergistic view. It's the same thing It's a
09:45: I think that's a word concept fallacy. Actually. Yeah. No, I know I'm just It's it's so frustrating because it's like I could just hear them saying like you said synergism and we're saying synergistic and there's a
09:58: There's a difference. You know, it's so frustrating and yeah, there might be a word concept fallacy in there
10:05: That's actually that's really good. I didn't think about that. But go ahead That's referring to because it's referring to the same thing and what but the problem is that what
10:14: Paul is doing? he's trying to redefine the terms outside of their historical and theological context and so Even even in the sense that you you described that he was trying to describe synergism
10:26: We do not cooperate with God in our conversion plain and simple It's not synergistic conversion is not synergistic because God gives us faith
10:35: He gives us repentance both our gifts from God as the Bible clearly states and we simply respond by Faith and repentance because God gives it to us first.
10:45: It's not a cooperation It's just not a cooperation in the first place at all. So We will gladly take
10:52: Chris to task on this, you know And what what's also a little bit irritating is that?
10:59: You know him taking issue with what we're saying and at the same time not really being at all concerned with the fact that with the false the twisting of my motives and and and false claims that I supposedly made that but you know
11:12: Paul and Pastor Paul and Ryan made about me and my motives and my right and I Yeah, and I pointed that out to him.
11:20: I I said, you know, if you're gonna be consistent and be griping about us You know, you should also be you know, pointing out what they're doing.
11:29: It's like well hypocritical then that is Yeah, it is hypocritical so Here's the thing and we will it's not
11:39: What did you say? Just that we would submit that to you know, brother Chris that that is that is
11:45: Hypocritical just to make that claim because what he's actually saying is false about us Well, and not only that but look we we actually provided the quotations
11:54: Yeah, what they actually said and he's not done that right not provided the quotations
12:00: So I was pretty irritated by that. So The other thing is it is very misleading for you to use the word
12:09: Synergistic and then find fault with us if we think that you're implying any form of synergism
12:16: As if we are the ones who have the problem here It's like well then don't use the term synergistic if you don't want it to be confused with synergism and Look we don't think that Paul is is saying it is purporting the the
12:33: Arminian view You know that the whole system of synergism We think that he's trying to say the right thing
12:39: But he's using the wrong term and here's the problem if you're gonna use that term What do you think people are going to think when you use the term synergistic?
12:52: Synergism Yeah, yeah, they do yeah the words have meaning yeah, and it's like oh we're at fault because you're using a
13:02: The adjective of a noun that you don't want us to use the noun. I mean, it's like what are you doing?
13:10: You're making a mess of this. Just don't use that word. You're making a mess of this
13:15: Alright, so anyways, um, did you? I'll keep reading the email.
13:22: Yeah So he continues and says I too am a supra Super lapsarian that is but would readily affirm that conversion entails an aspect of synergism
13:30: This view doesn't hurt reform theology in the least nor does it entail that one holds to the theological system of synergism
13:37: Let's not conflate the term with a system Do you did you know that classical Arminians would readily affirm that prevenient grace is a monergistic work of God?
13:47: That doesn't mean that they affirm the theological system of monergism It just means that even they would affirm that God works a unit unilaterally at times
13:56: It's like oh man, this was so bad. This just gives getting worse So we kind of already talked about this a little bit
14:02: But here and this is why we actually took we did take issue with what Paul was trying to explain or we're trying to define
14:08: Because that is incorrect to say that we cooperate with God in our conversion.
14:14: We do not It's we've made that clear already we cooperate with God because of our conversion
14:21: We do not cooperate with God in our conversion. Our cooperation of God is not what brings us through conversion
14:28: It is because of what God has done. He has given us the gift of faith He has given us the gift of repentance that we are then able to do these things and it is because he has converted us
14:39: So this point needs to be emphatically clear. We cooperate with God Because of conversion or as as a result of conversion
14:49: We do not cooperate with God in our conversion because we add nothing to it
14:55: This is what it seems like he wants to be able to have his cake and eat it, too It's like a three -point Calvinist They like the idea of being something of a
15:03: Calvinist but don't adhere to all of it to say you cooperate with God and you in Salvation in any way and then say that you that your monergistic is just to contradict yourself
15:15: You can't say you hold on to both of those things but let's employ the laws of logic and the law of non -contradiction and then be done with it because What you're saying is contradictory refutes itself.
15:28: You can't have both And so if you hold to that you just you're not saying something that's true.
15:33: You're just contradicting yourself Yeah, it's I don't I'm not sure I follow the point that you know
15:39: The classical Arminianism would affirm that prevenient grace is monergistic That doesn't mean that they are from the theological system of monergism, it's like, okay
15:46: I really I'm not following you because despite the fact that they held to that the
15:52: Synod of Dort still condemned the remonstrance in the Arminians as a heresy and they kicked everybody out or Excommunicated everybody who held to it.
16:00: So I don't understand the point. I don't even know how that's relevant to be honest It's like it it's very dangerous what they are doing and we're showing why okay the reformed theologians who they are trying to appeal to none of them use the term synergism to describe their monergistic view and it's for a pretty good reason and We've pointed that out already
16:22: It's like it's like people aren't listening to our show or it's like people just aren't getting it or I don't know what it is
16:27: Like you need to you need to look at what this stuff actually means because when you start describing conversion as a synergistic process you start to sound like Philip Melanchthon and his
16:39: Arminian compromise that led to the a very dangerous Compromising form of Lutheranism that really affected them negatively
16:47: Because he basically claimed that there's three concurrent causes in conversion that that it was the
16:53: Word of God that it was the Spirit of God and that it was human will and That's essentially what synergism means that your human will is cooperating with God in conversion and that's not true.
17:02: It's just not true It's false. Stop saying that it's wrong. You're wrong So stop saying that right?
17:09: Yeah, and and also, you know You said that reformed theologians don't use the term synergistic and and we would again just point out that even
17:19: Chris is pointing out pointing us to Louis Burkhoff. I don't see him using the term synergistic favorably
17:26: Yeah for it, right He only uses the term he only uses his term twice in his entire systematic theology and in both senses
17:32: He uses it in a negative sense because he's he's attributing He's using the term as it's always been understood in the
17:40: Armenian sense Which is what a careful theologian does, right? So I mean
17:47: It's kind of reckless to do that you to just pick up terms like that out of their historical theological sense
17:54: Definitional sense and then try to redefine them to into to Describe the very view that's the exact opposite of what it's it's the exact opposite of what the what the term means, you know
18:05: Right, I'll just finish reading the quote here and then we can get a little bit more into the into the our arguments
18:11: Yeah So he finishes by saying your name implies that you are always reforming Show that and look into this more dig into the implications in John 1 11 through 13
18:20: John makes the clear distinction that between being born of God 1 13 and conversion 1 12 and that being born of God entails no act of man
18:30: No act of man's will but that conversion receiving believing is an act of man's will and As such entails a cooperative work in conversion.
18:40: Okay that that is a total contradiction because John 1 13 actually specifically says that it was not by the will of man and He actually misdefined conversion as well because he said receiving and believing
18:51: I'm not sure it sounded like he was trying to define conversion as receiving and believing but the historical theological
18:58: Definition of the term means repentance and faith. So I mean We do not cooperate with God in our conversion that's not reformed at all
19:06: That's not what the Bible teaches us right and John 1 13 actually millet. It actually contradicts you so Why is this so hard, you know?
19:17: Yeah, so Carlos I think you know I think that he's caught up with the idea that Burkoff says that we cooperate with God in our conversion we wouldn't agree with that and We would actually say that Burkoff Contradicts himself because he says that man is is passive.
19:34: I'm looking for that that That quotation if you have it, that would be great. Do you remember we talked about that?
19:40: I'm trying to look it up right now Yeah, let me just actually Tim if you want if you can finish reading his email and I'll look for the quotes
19:47: I actually don't know where you left off Okay, I found the quote. Yeah, let me just I'll just finish reading it.
19:52: Okay so He says now this is this in no way entails that man adds anything to his conversion because we readily agree that faith is a
20:01: Gift of God. Okay, so then stop describing it as synergistic because if you say that we cooperate in conversion and that does describe some level of merit or credit or Necessary act from man in order to get to conversion
20:16: Again, the reformed faith does not hold to a synergistic view of conversion. That's just simply wrong
20:22: Anyway, so he continues we simply affirm that man exercises this gift of faith.
20:27: He is not a robot This same view is played out in sanctification in that we perform the works although the works are not wrought from within ourselves, which entails a synergistic synergistic aspect in sanctification and Again, this is why we in our if you go back to episode 47 and listen to what we actually said
20:46: We described that that chart the little chart that pastor Paul had brought up was actually very misleading because It shows
20:54: God and man both under Conversion and sanctification as if it was sort of in the same sense and that again, it's very misleading
21:02: It's false and it's not the reformed view It's not correct to say that to say that in the same way in our sanctification
21:09: We're cooperating with God to be sanctified Just as as as in conversion we cooperated with God to get to conversion
21:17: Okay, and that's not what he's saying, but it's contradiction like you can't use it in the same sense at all, right?
21:23: What I what I find a sort of difficult to hear is that we're saying that this is not the reformed view and then
21:30: Chris I thought he was a NCT guy Yeah, he sounded like it to me too.
21:36: I was surprised and then he says no, I'm reformed Baptist and I'm like, oh well You could have fooled me.
21:42: That's for sure. Yeah, and not only that but it's like well Just because you're reformed
21:48: Baptist doesn't mean you're accurate accurately representing the reformed position on this. So right
21:55: Some people might be tempted to say. Oh, look, we found a reformed Baptist who you know a reformed guy who agrees with us
22:02: It's like well, so what it's you know False appeal to authority there, but oh, let's let's go ahead and dig into that The little consistency that even found even though we still stand on everything that we said and we did our homework and we presented the the arguments very clearly very plainly and There is no there is no question that Reformed theologians do not use the term synergism to describe the reformed view.
22:29: Okay, and and Even in the sense of sanctification, it's misleading right because it implies that we're cooperating with God to sanctify ourselves
22:37: But really it's God who sanctifies us. It's not us. So that and that in itself is misleading even even in sanctification because Sure, the
22:47: Bible says to exercise yourselves into godliness. So there is a level that we You can say in some sense that yeah, okay
22:55: We we should practice ourselves into godliness and or into sanctification because what we do does hinder our sanctification
23:02: It can hinder or it can be an aid to that in the sense of like well Yeah, if you don't read your Bible, you're not going to get sanctified by God, but the sanctification is not from us.
23:10: It's from God So even then it's misleading because we are not cooperating with God on the on the same on level terms
23:18: It's just it's not appropriate to use the term synergistic or synergism and any one of those terms are levels
23:25: Whether you're talking about conversion or whether you're talking about sanctification But even even though We already did that and we made our case very clear and we still stand on everything that we said
23:35: We still went ahead and did even more homework. So Burkhardt starts off by well, he makes a distinction between active and passive conversion and here's his definition
23:46: He says active conversion is that act of God whereby he causes the regenerated sinner in his conscious life to turn to him in repentance and faith
23:55: Passive conversion is the resulting conscious act of the regenerated sinner Whereby he through the grace of God turns to God and repentance of faith and this is exactly what we've been describing
24:05: That's why it's not synergistic because God causes us to believe we do not cooperate with God to get to our conversion
24:12: It's a result. It's a response to God giving it to us and So but here again, so Burkhardt he continues by saying
24:22: Later on I think that in addition to that he says Section F.
24:28: He has a whole chapter on conversion and so in section F which is called the author of conversion says one
24:34: God is the author of Conversion God only can be called the author of conversion
24:40: This is a clear teaching of Scripture in Psalms 85 for the poet praise turn us O God of our salvation
24:46: And in Jeremiah 31 18 if Ephraim says praise turn thou me and I shall be turned a similar prayer is found in Lamentations 521 and 1118
24:57: Peter calls attention to the fact that God has granted unto the Gentiles repentance unto life a similar statement is found in 2nd
25:04: Timothy 225 there is a twofold operation of God in the conversion of sinners the one moral and the other hyperphysical in general it may be said that he works repentance by means of the law
25:16: Psalm 19 7 Romans 3 20 and Faith by means of the gospel Romans 10 17
25:21: Yeah We cannot separate these two for the law also contains a presentation of the gospel and the gospel confirms that the law
25:28: That the law also confirms the law and threatens with its terrors 2nd Corinthians 5 11
25:34: But God also works in an immediate hyper physical manner in conversion The new principle of life that is implanted in the regenerate man does not issue into conscious action by its own inherent power
25:45: But only through the illuminating and fructifying influence of the Holy Spirit John 6 44
25:51: Philippians 2 13 to teach otherwise would be Lutheran and Arminian so then he continues in Section 2
25:58: I think man cooperates in conversion. I think this is what Brother Chris was referring to with respect to Louis Burkhoff saying that conversion or implying that conversion is synergistic right yeah, it says
26:11: Yeah, so man cooperates in conversion, but God through But God only is the author of conversion it is of great importance to stress the fact over against a false path
26:23: Passivity that there is a certain cooperation of man in conversion dr. Kuyper calls attention to the fact that in the
26:29: Old Testament Shubh is used 74 times of conversion as a deed of man and only 15 times of conversion as a gracious act of God and That the
26:39: New Testament represents conversion as a deed of man 26 times and speaks it only two or three times as an act of God It should be borne in mind however that this activity of man is always a result or results from a previous work of God and man limitations 521 so This is what we've pretty much what we've been saying that man is really a risk man's act of Faith and repentance is actually a response and a gift of God Not a not a cooperative process to get there
27:10: You know somehow requiring something from man to get to conversion and repentance but it actually it kind of sounds like what's his name
27:20: Burkhoff might be contradicting himself there because he actually said that passive conversion is passive and And whereby we through the grace of God turn to God and repentance and faith so here
27:31: It sounds like he might be contradicting himself a little bit But he's trying to affirm that man actually does something
27:37: Which is what they are also with Chris and pastor Paul trying to affirm as well that men man is not a robot and God does not mechanically
27:46: Have faith or repentance for him But still that's that's again. That's not actually that's a little bit misleading and and again
27:54: Burkhoff never uses the term synergistic to describe the monarchistic view the reform view so that it that it's all that's still wrong
28:02: On their part to do that, and I think here are some quotes where he actually does use synergistic
28:08: Later on in this systematic theology He says the canons of Dort after calling attention to the many weaknesses and failures of the children of God declare
28:15: But God who is rich in mercy according to his unchangeable purpose of election does not wholly withdraw the
28:21: Holy Spirit from his own people Even in their grievous falls nor suffers him to proceed so far as to lose the grace of adoption and forfeit the state of justification
28:29: Or to commit the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirit nor does he permit them to be totally deserted and to plunge themselves into everlasting destruction
28:37: The Arminians rejected this view and made the perseverance of believers dependent on their will and to believe unto their good works
28:47: Arminius himself avoided that extreme but his followers did not hesitate to maintain their synergistic position
28:53: With all its consequences The West lay in Arminians followed suit as did several of the sects the reformed
29:01: The reformed or Calvin churches stand practically alone and giving the negative answer to the question
29:08: Whether a Christian can completely fall from the state of grace and be finally lost So there you go.
29:14: He's describing synergistic synergistic mr. Harris to the Arminians Referring to There's not we this is not that hard.
29:26: Okay, this is really not that hard We're being tongue -in -cheek here, and we're not trying to be disrespectful, but we're just pointing out the fact that what they're saying is simply wrong
29:36: Right, we're not the ones that need to reform ourselves or that we need to do our homework We're doing our homework and we've been going a step further
29:43: Okay, so and I think I think he actually this is the second time where that's the first time where Burkhardt refers to it
29:50: This is a second time and second section F called the efficient cause of regeneration there are only three fundamentally different views that come into consideration here and all the others are modifications of these number one the human will according to the
30:06: Pelagian conception regeneration is solely an act of the human will and practically identical with self -reformation with some slight differences
30:13: This is the view of modern liberal theology a modification of this view is that of semi Pelagian and Arminian Who regarded as at least in part an act of men?
30:24: Co -operating with divine influences applied through the truth This is the synergistic theory of regeneration
30:32: Both of these views involve a denial of total depravity of man So plainly taught in the Word of God John 5 42
30:38: Romans 3 9 through 18 7 18 and 23 8 and 7 8
30:44: I'm sorry Romans 8 7 2nd Timothy 3 4 and of the scriptures and of the scripture truth that God is
30:52: Who inclines the will? Not man to conversion or to regeneration Romans 9 16
30:58: Philippians 2 13 So those are the two senses those are the two times
31:03: Where Burkhardt uses the term synergistic or synergism and it's in a negative sense applying it to our minions
31:09: Which is what any responsible or careful or anybody who's actually read? Where synergism come from comes from Would understand this, you know, because it's not referring to the reform view at all.
31:21: So there you have it Simple and that's that's basically what we did. We tried to lay out why we think that it's problematic to use that word
31:30: We think that it's misleading. We think that It's it's confusing
31:37: To to use that that word So, you know look
31:43: I think I just want to leave it there like you said, I'm tired of this I'm tired of this myself.
31:50: But uh, you know, I would submit that Burkhardt agrees with us and You know to at least to the point where we we don't think we're we do think that he contradicted himself a little bit, but um
32:04: You know, we we wouldn't agree with that, but um, so yeah, I mean find me
32:11: Find me where Burkhardt uses synergistic to support the reformed view
32:17: Yeah, and and you know what just to put a little cherry on top of this. I also consulted other works and one of those is a
32:27: Michael Horton systematic theology, which is I think called I forgot what it's called the Christian faith or something like that But it's funny because Michael Horton actually he uses a term synergistic or synergism about 30 times and guess how many times of those 30 or 29 are
32:47: Negative and being applied to the Arminian view Anybody want to take a wild guess there all of them?
32:53: Every single one of them. Yeah. Okay, so Yeah, go ahead go ahead
32:59: Here's the thing we stand by what we said in that episode with regards to this issue.
33:04: This is not the reformed Position. I don't care if you're a reformed Baptist.
33:09: This is not the reformed position if you think it is I think you're confused and You know, we've we've debated whether or not we should ask
33:18: Chris to come on the show I don't really want to invite him on because he's accusing us of twisting what
33:25: Paul said while ignoring the fact that they twisted what we said and You know, it's like hey if that's the level of your
33:36: You know if that's where we're at like You know and if you're gonna if you're gonna say that we're twisting what they said without providing quotes
33:45: Look, we've we've shown ourselves to be correctable teachable
33:51: If we did misrepresent and twist him twist his words we would be happy to Correct it, but you know, we're not look and here's the other thing we
34:05: Firmly believe that these guys are brothers in the Lord. We are not calling them heretics
34:11: I need to make that very clear. We are not calling them heretics I don't I don't want to be accused of saying that that you know
34:18: Their heretics or that they you know, that is not what we're saying We just you know, this is an in -house discussion and in here's the thing
34:27: This is not the hill that we want to die on So at this point, I'm perfectly fine with just you know,
34:34: I'm I'm perfectly fine with letting it go I'd rather move on to other things other topics.
34:39: We have so much to talk about That I don't yeah, even right now. Yeah, I don't want to be here
34:46: I Agree, you know if we want to we will if we don't we won't so be it
34:51: Whatever, but I do I want to give this this this admonition this this making it seem like we're the sloppy ones
34:59: Or that we're the ones that are not doing our homework again You know, we're gonna submit this once again as an admonition to both pastor
35:05: Paul and Chris Harris from Council of Google Google Plus you guys are the ones that need to consider this more carefully and Stop using terms out of their historical theological and definitional context and You guys are the ones that are that are completely disregarding reform theologians and not being careful with your arguments so we submit this to both of them and to whoever agrees with them on this and We also want to point out the fact that there's this twisting of our motives and of what we actually said
35:39: That people have yet to apologize for publicly not that would not that we care, you know, we're over it but again as Christians we should be in our we should be discussing things more carefully in the spirit of brotherly love and Recognizing that when you're wrong, you're wrong.
35:54: Okay? We just want to submit this admonishment to them and move on because we're not wrong on this.
36:00: I'm sorry Plain and simple. Yeah. All right. So let's go ahead and play a commercial
36:07: And We will be back in a minute and we'll wrap up these questions from this video that we played
36:14: We'll go ahead and play the video again for this week's episode and we will wrap it up.
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37:54: Bible thumping wingnut Network Alright, welcome everybody to another podcast episode with Semper Reformanda radio.
38:00: Hi, welcome to theology gals Welcome everyone to the logical belief ministries podcast.
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39:02: Andrew Rappaport's book at what do they believe but calm All right, we are back.
39:07: So let's go ahead and play that little YouTube video again so that way the people from this week can at least have a context for what we're talking about and We're gonna pick up on I think it was question number 15
39:21: So let's just go ahead and play the video and We'll talk about it afterwards Do you really think he's freaking out because his name is not on a cup that you get to hold for 10 minutes while you drink?
39:31: a pumpkin spice latte Why does
39:37: Christian music always sound like a mixture of like Nickelback and third -eye blind Did your devotions actually happen if you didn't post about it on Instagram?
39:46: How come we all love Tim Tebow? I mean, I do love him. I just don't know why why can't you just pray?
39:51: Why does it have to be a prayer and then like someone in the background being like? Yeah, how come everyone's still supporting
39:58: Donald Trump? Why are we so afraid to talk about sex? Sex is good Have you read Song of Solomon?
40:04: How come we all love Chick -fil -a? Why do you think Facebook is an appropriate place to discuss theology? Why when
40:10: Paul said that we all have our own individual gifts that we feel the need to fit into this absolutely perfect mold
40:17: That's impossible. Why are we as Christians more known by the things we hate? Then by our acts of love, why do you think
40:24: Christianity and science are incompatible if anything science makes God look a lot cooler Why are you so adamant about exercising your religious freedoms?
40:32: But then get so offended when people of other faith exercise their religious freedoms Why do you feel like I have to constantly be preaching in order to be a good
40:40: Christian is showing my friends love and grace Not allowed to just speak for itself. Sometimes how come there's a church on every block?
40:46: But for some reason we can't figure out a way to work together Why is there so much racism, sexism, and homophobia in the church?
40:52: Galatians 3 .28 says there's neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, nor male nor female, for all one in Christ Jesus So doesn't that pretty much tell you that none of that stuff matters?
41:03: Why when the main message of the Bible is to love one another that we choose to do the opposite?
41:09: How come when we talk about men having several wives in the Old Testament we say cultural context But then when we talk about marriage today, it's strictly one man and one woman
41:17: Why does having a diverse group of friends make me less Christian? Why does the church consider LGBT Christians as less than?
41:24: I don't remember there being a demographic of people that Jesus saw as less than You know all that grace and forgiveness and love we've all received
41:31: How come we can't find a way that extend that to other people? Why do you feel like love the sinner and hate the sin is an okay thing to say?
41:37: You realize that's condescending and still separating them as an other, right? Why do you think you can judge my relationship with God off of a handful of statements?
41:45: You get mad at me for not being able to back up what I have to say But you end up taking scripture out of context so many times
41:53: What makes you decide what makes me a good Christian? Last I checked, everyone's relationship with God is personal
42:00: In the end, the grand message here is that you're supposed to love one another
42:05: And I'm sorry if I sound like a Hallmark After School Special But it's the truth Alright, so that was the video and I...
42:13: Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but I think we're on question number 15 Was that right? From last week's episode?
42:20: I'm not sure 16, oh yeah, question number 15 Alright, and so this question is actually posed by the guy that we were talking about That has,
42:30: I would say, quite a big following He does the Church Planters YouTube video
42:37: He's a comedian, he's a Christian comedian But question number 15 says How come there's a church in every block
42:44: But for some reason, we can't figure out a way to work together? So how would you guys answer that?
42:52: What do you guys think? Because they're not all Christian churches I mean, so what we can't do is just assume
42:58: Because a place has some nice sounding name attached to Christian Or church or Christ or whatever
43:04: That they're a Christian church I think that we do a really big disservice by Not pointing out that places are churches if they're not
43:14: So that being said I mean, that's the primary reason why they don't work together
43:21: I'll give you an example of my church In the town that I live in, Kingsburg There's an ecumenical group
43:30: And they're a group of professing churches And they do a pulpit swap
43:35: Well, there's a Roman Catholic congregation that's part of that And then he gets to speak in their pulpit
43:43: And they speak in his pulpit And they all kind of let this Well, our church isn't part of that Because that's wrong
43:49: Because the Roman Catholic Church is a false gospel And so we can't be a part of that There's a reason why we don't get along It's because we care more about the truth
44:00: Than the appearance of unity Yeah, and I've talked about this before I think much earlier on our podcast
44:11: But I remember going to Austin, Texas with my wife And we were visiting one of her friends
44:19: And driving around downtown Austin I remember seeing these beautiful church buildings
44:26: And then a lot of them were displaying the rainbow
44:32: Flag on their premise as a means of saying Hey, we're LGBTQ friendly
44:41: And it made me think like Man, there's a church in every single corner But a lot of these,
44:48: I would say Are probably a synagogue of Satan If you are promoting the very things that God hates
44:55: If you're promoting sin Then I just don't Like there's no way that I could partner with you
45:02: And so I would have to ask this guy What do you think constitutes a church?
45:10: And what do you think that we should come together to work on?
45:16: Or figure out a way to work together What should we work together on? Because here's the thing
45:22: I see a lot of people wanting to come together With Roman Catholicism to tackle issues like abortion, right?
45:30: Look, I don't need the Roman Catholics to help me Tackle the issue of abortion
45:36: As a matter of fact, get out of my way Get behind me
45:42: Like I don't want you to give people a false sense of hope
45:47: And what this does is it compromises spiritual warfare for social warfare
45:55: And the problem is that when you do this
46:00: You are presenting yourself to the world As somebody who is affirming
46:05: Roman Catholicism And what does that do for people who maybe are coming into the faith Or maybe are hearing about Christianity for the first time
46:13: They're thinking, hey, we're all in the same group We're all in the same camp We're all Christians We all love the
46:19: Lord No, we don't You're, these people over here, they're Antichrist I'm going to, and it's almost like, okay
46:28: I'm going to deal with the issue of abortion And then I'm at the very same time going to say
46:34: Hey, you're not a Christian You need to repent and believe the gospel And then tell, you know, the mother
46:42: Hey, your child is fearfully and wonderfully made Your child is a gift from God And try to talk her out of going in and having an abortion
46:52: I don't need their help I don't want their help Look, and I'm not willing to compromise spiritual warfare
47:03: For the sake of social warfare You guys can comment on anything that I said
47:09: Let me, I'm trying to understand What they're trying to get at, you know
47:17: Are they saying that we should coexist And we should find as much common ground as possible
47:23: And try to, you know, cooperate on things that like, you know Opposing abortion together or things like that Is that what they're saying?
47:33: Is that what they're getting at? Or are they just saying that we should act as if we had no differences whatsoever
47:40: And just, you know, just sing kumbaya and act like, you know Truth is relative and there's no actual meaning to words
47:48: Or is, I'm trying to see where they land on this Well, I guess my question to you for that is
47:53: Does it matter which one of those it is? Because it doesn't seem like either one of those is good If we're compromising on doctrine, we can't do either one of those
48:03: Yeah, right None of those is acceptable Because this is very unpopular, especially in our day
48:10: To say that ecumenism or ecumenicism However you want to say it Both end are a sin
48:16: That is a sin and it's a sinful compromise Because if you want to go and look at the
48:22: Bible And try to find any justification for ecumenism You're not going to find it Because in every single case
48:29: You can look up any example that you want from the Old Testament Or the New Testament or anywhere
48:37: God hates in any way, shape, or form Or being brought down to the same level of a false religion
48:45: That is pushing a false God You want to look up a good example With Elijah and the false prophets of Baal Or was it
48:52: Baal or Balaam? I forget which one It's probably Baal There's just no way you can defend this
49:01: As a Christian or from the Bible I mean, what ended up happening was that God ended up There was a challenge, right?
49:09: Elijah challenged the opposing false God religion And the false God lost And not only that But Elijah actually mocked them
49:17: He mocked their God Saying that he must be using the restroom right now Because he's not showing up And God did
49:23: God not only He threw water Because I guess the challenge was to see who can make fire manifest, right?
49:29: Or burn the logs or whatever it was And he threw water Just to add Just to show people that there's no question
49:36: That God, Yahweh of the Bible Is the only true God And everything else is a lie and it's false
49:42: And to show any kind of Implication or image or portrayal
49:48: As being in the same level In any way, shape, or form That God is willing to cooperate With a false religion or a false
49:54: God In any way, shape, or form Is misleading, is false, it's sinful And is a sin that should be repented of So all of these ecumenical compromises
50:05: Tying to Evangelicals and Catholics Together Or the Manhattan Declaration Which, by the way, Richard Bennett And a lot of sound ministries
50:12: Like the Trinity Foundation have called out I think actually Sproul has actually And MacArthur even has spoken against both of those things
50:21: Those are actually very good resources to turn to, by the way Because I do remember researching
50:27: MacArthur's Criticism of Evangelicals and Catholics Together As well as Sproul's But there's a lot of people who are
50:34: You even call themselves Reform Who have no problem with it I believe
50:40: Ligon Duncan actually Was in support of the Manhattan Declaration And it's just kind of weird to me
50:47: It gets very weird and awkward Because MacArthur ended up inviting Ligon Duncan To several of these
50:53: Shepherds Conferences And it's like, he actually Didn't he criticize the Manhattan Declaration? So it's like, a lot of this stuff starts to get very awkward
50:59: And it just makes a mess Like, the consistent biblical position
51:05: Is to not ever give the impression That we are on the same Even if superficially we would agree
51:11: That abortion may be wrong Or that, you know, homosexuality is wrong
51:18: Or that they would agree to that It doesn't matter It doesn't matter Because it's just superficial
51:25: You know, like our reasons are completely different And there's no way
51:31: There's just no way And that's what's going to make everybody That makes us very unpopular in this day and age
51:37: Of where it's all just about making truth relative And making us focus on what we do agree on Rather than what we disagree on As if it didn't really matter
51:47: And so, yeah Not going to happen Yeah, all right Let's go to the next question
51:54: How come there's so much racism, sexism, and homophobia in the church? Galatians 3 .20
52:00: says There's neither Jew nor Greek Neither slave nor free
52:07: Nor male or female For we are all one in Christ Jesus So doesn't that pretty much tell you
52:14: That none of that stuff really matters? Okay I think I just threw up in my mouth
52:20: Yeah, that was So There isn't racism, sexism, and homophobia
52:26: As there's a hatred of sin So I don't want to say there isn't I hate the term homophobia
52:34: In the church That was a total mess Yeah, hold on Let me just point out here
52:39: That the phrase in Adam Is speaking of federal headship
52:46: That we are in Adam You're either in Adam or you're in I'm sorry
52:51: The phrase in Christ is speaking of federal headship That we are either in Christ or we are in Adam And so This person talking about racism, sexism, homophobia in the church
53:05: It doesn't really matter what race you are That's not a disqualifying factor
53:13: But if you're a practicing homosexual I would say that you're not in Christ That you are still in Adam But if you're a practicing racist
53:23: You're the same thing Right, but yeah You're absolutely right Yeah, because like 1
53:29: John says Is it 1 John about hating your brother? Yeah, well this is how you know you love
53:36: God Is you love his children Right And so if you're angry at your brother
53:42: It's like you murder him We know no murderers go to heaven I mean, those are the ideas So if you don't love your brother in Christ And no greater love being willing to sacrifice yourself for Then you're not a brother
54:02: And so what's really interesting is The person actually throws in an actual sin
54:09: Racism With Okay, so let me think through this
54:16: There's so many category errors in this Assumption and false assumptions behind what they're saying
54:22: That it's just there's no way you can even be How can you
54:27: Okay, the first one is How can you try to say that in Christ these things don't matter And at the same time hold to something that Christ himself
54:36: And his word was declaring sinful So yeah, racism is a sin
54:43: But so is homosexuality So you can't have one without the other And you can't claim to be a
54:49: Christian Or to hold to the same Jesus of the Bible That the same Bible, by the way, that condemns homosexuality and racism
54:56: Right, because they use the term racism So they don't
55:02: They use the term racism And they don't use the term homosexuality They use the term homophobia
55:08: So it's basically If you're racist, you're a sinner But then if you disagree with homosexuality
55:15: Then you're a sinner That's the implication here That's completely, totally backwards
55:21: And then the issue of sexism I would really Man, I would really have to dig into What is this person
55:30: How does this person define what is sexism Because I would venture to guess that They hold to like a
55:39: Jory Mica perspective And if you're not affirming female pastors within the church
55:46: Then you're a sexist And so, I mean, by that false standard
55:52: I would be, you know, I would fall into that category But again, just completely
55:58: If you don't hate what the scripture teaches Then, you know, doesn't that not really matter
56:04: It's basically what it says Or what she's saying Because, you know, so racism isn't in the church
56:11: It doesn't exist in the church In the true church In Christ's church The bride
56:19: And, you know, we hate sin And we hate those things And so, it's a
56:26: Really, it's a They're trying to use this passage as if it nullifies How God is predisposed to these things as they actually are
56:38: And they're using, you know, the typical tactic of redefining words You know, like a lot of times, you know
56:47: There's systemic racism in our government Then you're a racist And you probably don't understand because you're white
56:53: Which isn't racist to say You know, if you don't agree that men and women are equal in every single way
57:00: Then you're a sexist But you'd have to throw the scripture off for that, you know And if you don't think that somebody can love somebody
57:08: However they want to And you can't judge their love, you know Of course, using the scripture Then, you know, then you're wrong
57:14: And, you know, because God is only love And not any of his other attributes And the passage doesn't even handle sin
57:23: It's not talking about sin It's talking about position in Christ in regards to equality before God And value as opposed to positions
57:36: In the church and life here And so, I mean, it's really simple to say, you know
57:43: When she asked, you know, how much How come there's so much racism, sexism, and homophobia in the church?
57:49: And the simple answer is there isn't Right, well, let me, okay So, yeah, we,
57:55: I mean, I'm tempted to beat this like a dead horse Well, I'll just say Hold on Because I actually do have something to say
58:04: This is exactly how Satan used scripture She uses a scripture verse to affirm homosexuality
58:13: And to imply that even what I would say So, homophobia, if you disagree with homosexuality
58:22: And the lifestyle of homosexuality Then you're a homophobic person
58:28: And there's homophobia in the church Because we're not embracing these things And she is then using scripture to say
58:35: Basically, we're all one in Christ No, we're not If you're a practicing homosexual and you're unrepentant
58:42: Then you are not in Christ You are an Adam And this is exactly what
58:50: Satan does He twists scripture He did it with Eve He did it with Jesus This is what false teachers do
58:56: They use the Bible to promote an anti -Christ agenda Carlos, would you have to say?
59:03: Well, this is taking me all the way back to some of the very first episodes that That you and I did,
59:09: Tim And when we were talking about the LGBT agenda And the LGBT movement And then the way
59:15: Christians or so -called Christians Who try to make any way, shape, or form
59:26: Distinction or difference between the fact that There's just no way that you can defend homosexuality or racism
59:39: And call yourself a Christian The problem is that it is a gross category error
59:48: To equate racism with homosexuality And it is one of the worst displays of bad argumentation
59:57: Hold on And bad logic Let me just continue to try to explain it Because then it'll probably make more sense But I'm just going to make two points
01:00:04: The problem with what they're saying is that It is a category error for one thing
01:00:10: Just to equate homosexuality with racism And it is also It's just like you're only assuming
01:00:20: What you should be trying to prove in the Bible By saying that By dismissing the fact that homosexuality is okay
01:00:31: But then at the same time trying to say that racism is not Because if you're trying to use the Bible They're both wrong
01:00:38: To say that homosexuality is not a sin when it is Or to say that What were they also saying?
01:00:49: Oh, well, yeah Well, to say that one is okay when the other isn't
01:00:55: It's like Right, yeah It's just a total mess And so now
01:01:03: I will say this though Now we do also have to make a distinction between People who are perpetual racists
01:01:09: And then an actual genuine Christian Who makes the sin of a racist comment
01:01:15: Or a racist remark Or the sin of having a homosexual thought
01:01:22: And then repenting of it later Because it is true I mean the church Even the true church still sins
01:01:28: And so the church can make a believer Can make a sinful racist
01:01:37: Or a sinful homosexual thought or remark or whatever But if they repent then they're okay
01:01:42: Because you're repenting and believers sin And but you repented Now if you think it's okay
01:01:49: And if you continue to do it Either one of those things Then yeah Then you're showing that you're not actually saved
01:01:57: So Right, yeah The only thing that I was going to say You kept saying that they're equating racism with homosexuality
01:02:05: They're equating racism with homophobia Not homosexuality They're affirming homosexuality
01:02:11: So that's what I was trying to Which is implying Yeah, yeah Yeah, I was trying to correct you there But that's fine
01:02:17: All right, number 17 Number 17 Why when the main message of the Bible is to love one another
01:02:24: That we choose to do the opposite I may have butchered that Or maybe it was typed out wrong
01:02:32: Why when the main message of the Bible is to love one another That we choose to do the opposite So I just threw up again
01:02:41: Yeah, I don't know if Okay, so we should love each other
01:02:46: We should love our enemies But I think the main message of the Bible Is to proclaim
01:02:52: God's glory And the salvation of his people
01:02:58: And to reveal the message of the gospel So the main message of the
01:03:04: Bible is primarily about God It's not a moralistic, you know, self -help book
01:03:13: Which, you know And then also to love one another I think that this a lot of times
01:03:19: Going back to equating disagreement with hatred It's, well, you're not loving me if you disagree with me
01:03:26: And so therefore you have to be affirming my lifestyle In order to be loving me
01:03:31: And you're doing the opposite That's, you know, yeah That's what I'm getting from that Well, I mean, just to piggyback off of that So the main message of the
01:03:43: Bible is not about us I mean, that's what you were getting at So it can't be about us loving one another
01:03:49: Now in Cleusiasis, it basically says The whole purpose of ban is to fear God and keep his commandments So we know what our purpose is
01:03:59: Amen So can you just be clear In case people didn't understand
01:04:05: What is exactly the main purpose and point about the Bible If you will, Joseph So in the simplest sense, the glory of God God and his glory
01:04:17: Thank you Yes Not us God Thank you Yeah, I mean, all the part that talks about us
01:04:22: We're They wouldn't leave all that out I mean, the part where it talks about I mean, a heart or wicked and deceitful
01:04:34: Like desperately wicked, right? You know, if we do what's right in our own eyes It's like the worst thing you could read in the book of Judges You know, do not trust in your own understanding
01:04:42: We're stupid I mean, the parts of the Bible that are about us Are not complimentary
01:04:48: And so I don't think we should hold on To the parts of the Bible that are about us
01:04:54: I think that God does a perfect job In showing us how much it's not about us
01:05:03: And so I think that this is I mean, it's obviously a distortion of What the scripture teaches
01:05:10: It's a lack of knowing what the scripture teaches And it goes back to a version of God that is
01:05:16: Only their version of love And none of the other attributes Like, you know, just completely benevolent
01:05:24: And just, you know It's a false God Yeah, here's the thing Is that all those words that they try to ascribe to it
01:05:31: Whether it be benevolent, kind, loving Their definitions of those words are completely warped
01:05:39: In so much as that When what they call kind is not kind What they call loving is not loving What they call compassionate is not compassionate
01:05:46: In so much as it violates What God has said about those things
01:05:51: But then they attribute their idea of those things to God And say, well, why don't you do what
01:06:00: God wants? Why don't you love each other? Because that's what it's really about But, you know, when we proclaim the truth
01:06:05: And we call them to repentance and faith That's considered unloving Because we're being all judgy and stuff But they don't know
01:06:14: God They don't know the God of the scripture You know, they're like a hyper -dispensationalist That thinks there's a
01:06:19: God of the Old Testament And a God of the New Testament And there's separate ways of salvation Because they don't know the scripture
01:06:26: Yeah, yeah, yeah Or a Marcionite who would say that The God of the Old Testament was wrathful
01:06:32: And this and that But then the God of the New Testament was loving and forgiving And so it's like, as if they were not the same
01:06:40: God So, I'm just going to Yeah, yeah, yeah We've dealt with this so much
01:06:45: That it's just, I just can't stand it And I'll say this If you say that God is love
01:06:53: And then at the same time You ignore the fact that when Jesus said If you actually love me
01:07:00: You would keep my commandments And then at the same time If you're going to ignore the fact
01:07:07: That the same God and the same Bible Also says that homosexuality
01:07:12: Is unequivocally a sin What are you talking about?
01:07:19: What are you talking about? God said And then people, I can't stand it
01:07:24: Like we already And I know, you know It's just reminding me of the same stuff That Tim and I talked about With the
01:07:29: LGBT stuff that we talked about In our very first episodes It's like, if you're going to say that God is love
01:07:36: You know, people are saying, you know Implying that you're taking it from 1 John, right? God is love and love is of God, right?
01:07:43: But then the same epistle says That to love
01:07:50: God is to obey him and his commandments So, I mean, it's like, I don't understand They're cherry picking, yeah
01:07:57: Wait till you get to the next question Because you're going to be really triggered Oh boy,
01:08:03: I can't wait Yeah, number 18 How come we only talk about Oh wait, hold on, hold on How come when we talk about I may have
01:08:15: Here, let me read it Because I wrote it and I remember how it sounds How come we only talk about men having several wives
01:08:23: In the Old Testament and we say cultural context But when we talk about marriage today It's strictly one man and one woman
01:08:32: All right, well first of all Oh boy First of all, if you're saying that polygamy
01:08:39: Was acceptable because of cultural context You're wrong We even see that Solomon who had
01:08:46: What was it? 300 wives and 700 concubines At the end of it I'm sorry, it was actually the opposite It was the other way around No way, it was 700 wives?
01:08:57: It wasn't 700 wives, it was 300 wives 700 wives and 300 concubines
01:09:02: Yeah, I thought it was the other way also No, it's the other way It's 300 wives and No, but okay
01:09:09: It doesn't matter But yeah All right, well hold on We gotta do a little fact check on this So at the end of his
01:09:18: I mean by the time he was living like that He reflected He resembled the wicked kings
01:09:25: That Israel was not to imitate Rather than what
01:09:31: God had actually ordained from the beginning So he was in sin when he
01:09:39: When he had all these wives And he had all these concubines That's not what God would have had for him
01:09:46: Nowhere does it affirm that That that's acceptable And so to say cultural context
01:09:52: Like I don't know who this person Obviously this person is talking to a person
01:09:58: Who's ignorant of the Bible Who's ignorant of these issues Who probably hasn't ever thought deeply about these things
01:10:05: But you should not argue cultural context As a means of dealing with these passages
01:10:13: What polygamy in the Old Testament Was just as much sinful and wrong
01:10:19: As it would be today And the reason
01:10:24: So talking about marriage As you know
01:10:29: Talking about marriage today Is strictly one man and one woman They're making a category error
01:10:37: Because what they're getting at Is the issue of homosexuality
01:10:44: I don't think that they're getting at the issue of polygamy I don't think that this person is trying to argue for polygamy
01:10:50: I think they're arguing for homosexuality Which is one man and one man Or one woman and one woman
01:10:57: So they're making a category error in this
01:11:03: But yeah Well even though You know and we've already talked about this Tim I mean I know
01:11:08: I can't You know like logically speaking If you're trying to defend
01:11:14: One man and a woman But also one man and one man Or one woman and one woman
01:11:21: What's going to stop you Or how are you going to escape the accusation That if you're going to say that What's wrong with saying one woman
01:11:29: Well I'm sorry One man and a child Or one man and a dog
01:11:36: Or a man and a cereal box
01:11:41: It's like You can't appeal to the bible And or when you feel like it
01:11:48: And then like what's your criteria right Because you can't appeal to the bible And then try to defend the fact that there's a man
01:11:56: There's a woman But wait why not a man and a man And a woman and a woman right Like there's no way
01:12:02: You can't defend it And then not allow people to say Hey well what if I'm a pedophile
01:12:08: Like or what if I'm You know like who cares Like why not Hey why not
01:12:15: You know Right right yeah Yeah I just want to take a second to say Carlos was right Oops 700 wise and 300 concubines
01:12:24: Yeah I figured because he sounded so Confident about that I didn't even bother to look it up I'm looking up John 14
01:12:34: No Matthew Oh man it's late I'm tired Matthew 19 4 through 5
01:12:40: He answered them He being Jesus Have you not read that he who created them
01:12:46: From the beginning made them male and female And he said therefore a man shall leave his father and mother
01:12:58: And hold fast to his wife Not wives wife Not husband wife
01:13:04: And they the two shall become one flesh So there's your answer as to why nowadays
01:13:12: And not and here's the thing It's not just So the question is
01:13:19: But when we talk about marriage today It's strictly one man and one woman
01:13:25: Jesus affirmed this 2000 years ago As what was from the beginning
01:13:32: It's not just today You know it's not just you know a recent new development
01:13:39: There's a push to accept homosexuality So this issue is coming up increasingly more and more today
01:13:48: But this person just Man you just need to read your bible I'm gonna throw probably not too much of a wrench in this
01:13:57: So the law only explicitly prohibits Having multiple wives if you're in a leadership position
01:14:04: And we see Paul reiterate this in regards to elders So there's even a law that And so this doesn't you know make it right or good
01:14:13: But there's even a law that says If you have two wives and you prefer one over the other If you prefer the second one over the first one
01:14:20: And you have a son with the first one You give him So there's a law that manages having two wives
01:14:27: So it's not prohibited It's not explicitly prohibited in the Old Testament That being said
01:14:34: I think that When Jesus clarified in regards to divorce
01:14:39: That Moses had allowed for it Because of your guys' stubbornness
01:14:45: The hardness of your hearts Yeah but in the beginning it was not so It's the same reason why we can look at Jesus and Matthew And say well the design was this and it is good
01:14:56: Even though it's not explicitly prohibited in the law Yeah well you know
01:15:02: And I know people have a different Like you know I know polygamy it's had me
01:15:08: It's really grinding my gears more than one time And you know even now like it's like Well you know it's pretty interesting
01:15:17: It's an interesting issue And it's not It's like I remember
01:15:22: Walter Martin talking about it one time When somebody asked him And it's like either way you look at it
01:15:27: Like polygamy has always been a problem Even and Jesus made it very clear Like from the beginning
01:15:33: God made them male and female And he said one man and one woman And so even
01:15:40: And I don't know if you already mentioned this Tim But it's like it's funny Because you also say when you define a marriage
01:15:45: And when God defined a marriage It was one man and one woman And then it's like when
01:15:51: Jesus said A man shall leave his father singular And his mother singular
01:15:57: Opposite sex right And people To be fair to that statement though So I still agree with you
01:16:05: But to be fair to that statement though A man only has one father and one mother You can't you know two women don't birth a child
01:16:11: Right So but that doesn't necessarily mean that That that doesn't you know
01:16:17: You know the trees green are all trees green So a man only has one father and mother Actual biological parents
01:16:24: But that wouldn't exclude Because you've got you know the 12 The 12 sons of Israel All had one father and one mother
01:16:34: But there were two wives And so so I'm just talking about the I don't think
01:16:40: I don't think That can be consistently applied quite that way Yeah well I mean either way you look at it Polygamy caused problems
01:16:47: And that's why we That's why Jesus made it very clear I mean it's like okay
01:16:54: I know that we're getting I don't want to get too sidetracked Into another issue of polygamy And then maybe we should talk about it
01:17:01: When we're also going to talk about Mormonism and you know all that stuff But all
01:17:07: I'm saying is that Like polygamy was an issue And so yeah God provided laws to regulate it
01:17:12: But it's like it was still an issue You know what happened with Solomon It's like what happened with Jacob's wives
01:17:18: You know it's like you have a preference And then it's like it's still a problem
01:17:24: Well so still the difference between those Is that Solomon's wives was explicitly sinned
01:17:31: Because rulers were not to have multiple wives And that's in the law That's explicit
01:17:37: So even same with David right Although he acquired most of his wives Before he was king
01:17:44: That was you know And somehow they had a different delineation Between wives and concubines And I don't see that scripture Actually makes that separation
01:17:50: But that's what they called the difference But it was explicitly condemned
01:17:58: For rulers of the people To have multiple wives No two ways about it
01:18:05: Explicitly condemned And like I said we see that reiteration In so much in the
01:18:11: New Testament When Paul says a man of one wife And you're saying that he's talking about elders there
01:18:18: Yes yes So now you want to read that passage As pertaining to elders and leaders
01:18:25: No before when I said I wasn't arguing that the pastoral epistles Only apply to the pastors
01:18:32: Because Paul doesn't make a distinction That only these things only apply to pastors That was
01:18:38: Carlos's side of the argument But okay so you would say that Because it sounds like you're saying
01:18:46: That that only applies to the elders No so the elders can't have more than one wife
01:18:54: I mean that's the But would that apply to basically everybody
01:19:00: Well no I would say that There were still people that had multiple wives
01:19:05: And still people converting That had multiple wives at the time And Paul said those people can't be elders
01:19:12: That's the argument I would make for that So still
01:19:17: Jesus clarifying And making his argument in Matthew Would make it very clear
01:19:23: That polygamy is not right and good And that's not how God designed things So I would say that Even though there's not an explicit command
01:19:31: In the Old Testament Forbidding this That this is not what
01:19:36: God intended from the beginning And therefore it's not good Yeah and so thanks for letting me give you a hard time
01:19:45: I may have gotten it wrong I forgot who was arguing what side from earlier We're all against polygamy though So yeah
01:19:53: Yeah if I want to make it through next week
01:19:59: I'm totally against polygamy My wife would kill me So alright so the next question is
01:20:07: Why does having a diverse group of friends Make me less of a
01:20:13: Christian? So what came to my mind was 1
01:20:18: Corinthians 15 33 which says Do not be deceived
01:20:23: Bad company ruins good morals Or another version would be Bad company corrupts good character
01:20:29: And then also Psalms 1 through 12 says 1 through 2 not 1 through 12
01:20:37: Says blessed is the man who walks not In the counsel of the wicked
01:20:42: Nor stands in the way of sinners Nor sits in the seat of scoffers
01:20:48: But his delight is in the law of the Lord And on his law he meditates day and night
01:20:56: Um so Alright whoever's messing with that stop it
01:21:03: Um but uh you know it's like what is what is What is a diverse group of friends?
01:21:09: If you're if you're saying like you know Some of my friends are black Some of my friends are Mexican Then great yeah you should have friends like that You know if you're if you're white
01:21:20: If you're Asian whatever like If that's what you mean by diverse Then I don't see a problem with that But I don't think that that's what's intended
01:21:29: I think that uh the diversity of the friends is More reflective of you know
01:21:37: Probably somebody who's transgender Somebody who's who's openly practicing homosexuality
01:21:44: And has a boyfriend Hey I can hear myself in somebody's uh microphone Um I don't know who it who's it is but Um you know
01:21:54: I believe that that's the diversity that Um that that would be implied here
01:21:59: Because that is the diversity that the culture is Is currently driving towards That they're that they're wanting to take us into Um you know going back to Bill Nye the
01:22:13: Science Guy's Um new show Bill Nye Saves the World And you know there's he does
01:22:20: He has a little cartoon skit with ice cream And there's you know there's vanilla
01:22:25: And vanilla is really rigid And just you know wants vanilla And then there there come all these different flavors
01:22:32: You know it's like there's diversity So that's that's kind of the the
01:22:39: What I'm picking up from this um I I would say that in one sense this isn't a problem at all
01:22:45: And it should be encouraged But in another sense if You know you shouldn't hang around with people that are
01:22:53: Openly mocking and defying God Because that could be a huge problem So yeah maybe like two like two
01:23:02: Well one thing to say And I think this actually leads into the next question Friendship with the world is enmity towards God That's what the scripture says
01:23:12: And so and so the and it still leads to the next question Because I mean really the implication is what you say
01:23:17: And the next question states Why does the church consider LGBT Christians less than? And then saying
01:23:24: I don't remember there being a demographic of people That Jesus considered to be less than Which is not true
01:23:34: But but it's the same idea It's the same the same You know they're diverse friends As if there could be
01:23:41: LGBT Christians Um right right yeah
01:23:46: Well actually like your note Uh yeah I'll read that So um so the next question is as you said
01:23:55: Why does the church consider LGBT Christians less than? Well I think um
01:24:03: I I said I I do consider them to be reprobate Um other than implies other implies better than So I don't think that I'm better than them
01:24:13: I I would say that maybe I'm better off Because um you know I mean that's just a simple fact
01:24:20: It's like well I'm I'm saved And you're not saved So I'm like currently right now
01:24:26: I'm I'm better off than you But it's not because I'm better than you But uh why why does the church uh consider
01:24:35: LGBT Christians less than? So the you know maybe maybe some churches consider them to be less than Um but I basically the idea is that if you're not affirming them
01:24:54: Then you are considering them to be less than And there's no way that I'm going to affirm the
01:25:00: LGBTQ community Or those activists or those those people to be actual
01:25:06: Christians When they're openly defying God with their lives and and calling what
01:25:13: I mean You know they're called what's the verse in uh Woe to those who call evil good and good evil
01:25:20: Man I need to look that up because that is a that is a good verse for this Woe to you if you were calling evil good and good evil
01:25:28: And that is exactly what this person is doing So are we still on the friend question?
01:25:37: Uh well What's uh Joseph moved down to number 20 um and he basically combined the two
01:25:48: Okay because I mean well and I was also still a little bit hung up on the The what do you call it the the one we were dealing with earlier or before this
01:25:57: But I want to I just want to say like in addition to referring
01:26:03: Are we you know referring people to our our earlier episodes about The LGBT agenda and when we critique the uh what's her name
01:26:11: The article you know defending target Defending you know should Christians still go to target or whatever
01:26:19: I also wanted to refer people to an article Well it's not an article it's more of a book review that I did of uh
01:26:27: Gary Wills what Jesus meant because he also tries to defend
01:26:34: Christian Christians being homosexuals or saying it's okay because the the the
01:26:40: Condemnations against homosexuality were basically Levitical Holiness laws that don't really apply to anybody else
01:26:52: And so it's funny because it's like well Why do you dismiss those as Levitical laws but then to completely ignore
01:26:59: The passages in the New Testament that don't appeal to Leviticus at all Like Romans 1 you know it's like it's a horrible argument
01:27:07: It's one of the worst books it's one of the worst Interpretations I've ever read about the Gospels by the way
01:27:13: So just be careful with that you know you can you can you know Check out the book review for on the Bible thumping we know for more
01:27:19: Details but I was also going to say Uh that that um
01:27:25: The definition of a friend you know how how do you define a friend Because a friend one of the definitions of a friend
01:27:33: Is a person who is not an enemy or who is on the same side
01:27:41: Isn't that interesting Draw that draw that a little bit more So and this also has implications for who you befriend on Facebook You know
01:27:51: Facebook and social networking has completely destroyed that definition Like what what does it mean to befriend somebody you know
01:28:00: They've completely ruined that for people and now it's like People just want to get more friends and more likes and whatever
01:28:06: And it's like I don't care who you are or whatever you know It's just like we need to be careful with who we're friends with even on Facebook Um and You know of course we we talked about this a little bit earlier too it's like well
01:28:23: Um would you befriend somebody in order to minister to them the gospel of Christ It's like well yeah
01:28:28: I mean sure I have a friend I'm friends with somebody who is a satanist You know it's like well because I'm I'm ministering to them
01:28:36: I'm sharing the gospel with them And it's like it's funny because he's actually the most inconsistent satanist
01:28:41: I've ever met in my life Because it's like dude your motto is to live by Christ two great commandments it's like why are you helping people so much you know
01:28:51: But you know that's that's my job as a Christian you know when you're when you're sharing Christ with them you're pointing these things out to them
01:28:59: So wait his motto is to live by Christ's two greatest commandments
01:29:04: Yeah but he's a satanist well because he's always trying to help people He's always helping people and he loves kids too and it's like man
01:29:11: You are like a super inconsistent satanist But that's what we do when we talk to people you know we share the gospel and we
01:29:19: We do apologetics and we show them these things because a lot of people don't even realize How inconsistent they are right or or just how bad they really are and that's what you know
01:29:28: But anyway like yeah you know I have you know I'm acquainted with people who are People you know more especially with family too you know you have family
01:29:38: Who is very often not a Christian and so it's like yeah we They're family you should you probably
01:29:43: I can't trust a lot of family members But because our true family is the church right it's Christians But that doesn't mean that we can't like minister to people or or attempt to Love them as our neighbors right that's what we should do
01:29:59: So I hate to basically borrow from earlier conversation in the way of how we use words but I think it might be important to make the distinction of being friends with And being friendly too yeah and so I think we are not to be friends with them
01:30:17: They are our enemy Christ makes that clear but we are to love them and so so I think
01:30:22: That the traditional sense in which an enemy is described in our in our normal lives Isn't the way we we we apply it in how we treat them how we how we care for them
01:30:32: You know referring back to what I said earlier you know Paul said you know if he's hungry
01:30:38: Feed him you know if he needs clothes give it to him these are we treat enemies
01:30:46: Differently than the world does but we don't drop the distinction that they are opposition to us
01:30:54: Yeah we still love them as our neighbor yeah you know and love your enemies too right so I mean I would just also add to that that like a lot of people probably need to be pruning their
01:31:05: Facebook lists of friends you know because you need to stop wearing
01:31:10: Christianity on your sleeve You know this is probably why I can't stand
01:31:15: Facebook too because people need to be careful If you friend somebody who is not a Christian and and people see that on your friends list
01:31:22: And it's like oh I thought you were a Christian you're friends with this guy and you they click On their Facebook and then you realize that oh this guy's like got a bunch of nasty stuff on his
01:31:29: Profile so I want to wear against that really briefly and because I because I'm going to Disagree with you on that the that the problem with that type okay what
01:31:40: I perceive to be the Problem with that type of thinking is this is exactly the way the Pharisees employed Jesus Having and this gets abused a lot so I'm not using it this way but it's exactly the way
01:31:49: Jesus the Pharisees employed against Jesus for being around sinners and tax collectors I mean any call the the the the somebody being a contact which is the named as a friend on Facebook Does not mean that they're a friend they're they're they're conflicting the term
01:32:06: I don't have to I know that these people are not my friends but because it's a means in which to to share the
01:32:14: Truth them being contacts on theirs is is acceptable I still personally consider them
01:32:20: Friends but but to share my life with them and the truth with them that that that wouldn't happen
01:32:31: I don't think that you know I don't think I at least I hope that most people don't confuse the
01:32:36: Fact that Facebook calling them friends and me then actually being my friend are the same thing
01:32:41: I think I think that we understand with social media that that's just the designation as opposed To the reality well it's kind of proving my point
01:32:49: I mean that's exactly what Facebook is Trying to do is trying to eliminate that distinction and it's kind of I would say
01:32:57: How is that not hypocritical because it's like you're befriending somebody who is not really Your friend that's that's a little bit you know and I would also recommend people to check out
01:33:08: G Craig Lewis's teachings on this because he's got some really good teachings on you know social Media and just stuff in general but that's kind of what
01:33:16: I'm saying like why and I might need to Review my list again too because I might be guilty of this as well it's like well why are we befriending
01:33:24: These people if they're not really our friends and especially if we say something about Christianity And they're the first ones to jump on there on our timeline or whatever and go against it you know
01:33:34: It's like we just something to think about I have unfriended people in the past just because Man everything that they put on their
01:33:46: Facebook page was just mocking Christianity And I tried to reach out to them
01:33:53: I tried to you know make a sincere effort to talk to them about The gospel and they just they really weren't they didn't care they didn't they weren't responsive
01:34:06: They weren't and I didn't want so I used
01:34:12: Facebook on my phone and I did not want my kids being
01:34:19: Exposed to some of the stuff that they you know if I leave my phone open like and my kid you know
01:34:27: Opens it or whatever like I don't want them to see it. I I didn't want to see it, and it's like man
01:34:33: Yeah, I mean just like promoting a homosexuality Taking like some some provocative pictures men
01:34:40: You know provocative pictures of men, and I'm like I don't want this on my Facebook feed and So I'm not really your friend in real life.
01:34:49: I so hey like I'm cutting the I'm cutting the cord Right now, but you know
01:34:57: I think I think you know we could go back and forth in that so here's here's what I'm gonna do I'm actually just gonna.
01:35:04: Let's just go ahead and end this episode There's like four or five other questions that I just don't think we're gonna get to you
01:35:11: I think that this pretty much You know we've gone through this and it's pretty much shows that look this type of thinking is
01:35:22: I think what is wrong with cultural Christianity In America today, and I would say that this this is not
01:35:31: When the Bible says to render every thought captive to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and I think 2nd
01:35:37: Corinthians 10 5 This is not doing it when you think like this and and I want to just end end by pointing out two things
01:35:47: With this last question. I'm gonna read it again Why does the church consider
01:35:52: LGBTQ Christian LGBT Christians less than I Want to throw this out there?
01:36:02: For for people to think about 1st Corinthians 5 11 it says reading from the
01:36:07: English Standard Version But now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed or as an idolater reviler drunkard or swindler not even to eat with such a one
01:36:28: So to bear the name of brother is somebody who is professing to be a Christian And they are guilty of sexual immorality greed idolatry reviler drunkard swindler
01:36:41: Paul says not to associate with them And he says not even to eat with one with such a one
01:36:49: So a person who is it was an LGBTQ Christian is one who is professing to be a brother and they are guilty of idolatry, they're guilty of sexual immorality and We have a clear command from Scripture not to associate with them and not to even eat with with one such as them and You know, we can we can talk about what that what that looks like, you know
01:37:18: That doesn't mean if they say hi you ignore them, you know You definitely want to preach the gospel to them
01:37:24: You want to look for opportunities like that, but you don't associate with them as though there's nothing wrong you you don't associate with them as as though they are a friend and then the other thing that I want to just end on is
01:37:40: Going through this whole this little video that's only like about two minutes long and we've made two episodes about it
01:37:49: Is Isaiah 5 I want to just point out Isaiah 520 which says woe to those who call evil good and good evil who put darkness for light and light for darkness who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter so Woe to these professing
01:38:07: Christians who are making a case for an Antichrist agenda who are very subtly
01:38:14: Promoting what is anti -christian? Woe to them because they are they're confusing what is good with what is evil they are putting light for darkness and darkness for light and and Look if there's anything that's
01:38:30: Frightening in the scriptures, it's the woe passages. You better watch out you better repent and get right with God because This this is serious stuff when
01:38:43: God says woe to you You're you're you better buckle up.
01:38:48: You're in a world of hurt you Yeah, and you desperately need to repent so I think these people
01:38:56: I think they're in a dangerous place Speaking spiritually the guy the
01:39:02: Chris John Christ the guy that everybody likes that everybody's sharing his videos.
01:39:09: He's a comedian. He's funny He's Christian. You know I Was I was thinking well, maybe maybe he just submitted his questions
01:39:16: And he he didn't you know he wasn't there for some of the other questions that were asked
01:39:21: And I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the videos out there He's attached to it and if something if if if I was part of that and and I saw you know
01:39:31: I submitted some questions and Then I saw some of the other questions that were just leading to an
01:39:36: Antichrist agenda. I would I Would say look take me out of that video.
01:39:42: I don't I want nothing to do with it I would put out my own response to it, but I've not seen him do that so you know this guy's
01:39:50: He's got like a million hits on his You know church hunters
01:39:56: YouTube video I I don't really think he's that solid to be honest with you, and I think that you know
01:40:05: Yeah, you know it's like he's funny and a lot of people are his fans a lot of Christians are his fans But you know
01:40:10: I think that you need to be a little bit more discerning With what you like and what you share on Facebook So that's my piece if you guys have any final final thoughts and any of the stuff that that I've said that we've talked about You know
01:40:25: I'd love to hear it, so I'll give you guys the floor I'll just say real quick that you know that kind of thinking is very self -serving and sinful and It's not that hard to see once you start reading the actually reading the
01:40:38: Bible to show how utterly at odds It is with the Bible so we would invite people who agree with this perspective to simply read the
01:40:46: Bible You know start with the Gospel of John Romans the book of Acts, I mean you just Read the
01:40:52: New Testament And it's not very hard to see how utterly at odds This kind of thinking and mentality is is it's up It's completely opposed to the
01:41:00: God of the Bible, and you can't claim to have the God of the Bible On and the things that you want and not the other things that you don't want so I mean that that just means that you're serving
01:41:10: The God of your own creation and not the God of the Bible so we would encourage them to Read it repent and believe the gospel of Christ.
01:41:18: It's in the Bible alone One of the one of the questions was you know how do you how do you say you're not?
01:41:29: How do you how can you judge my relationship with God Scripture tells us how
01:41:36: So just to reiterate We don't we don't just say scripture alone.
01:41:42: We don't say sola scriptura flippantly The Word of God God's words are our authority
01:41:52: You can't in the same breath although you may try you may utter the words, but you can't actually in the same breath say that that you follow
01:42:02: Christ who is God and you and you Don't follow his words because he said that's impossible you can't
01:42:12: And so just you know at the end of the day although we have very strong feelings and opinions
01:42:20: Which are biblically informed in regards to specific people we've talked about in so much as referencing the homosexuals racists
01:42:32: You know swindlers The The our prayer is is ultimately that you repent and believe we care for you.
01:42:42: We say these things not because we are A Gross hatred towards you, but because we love you, and we want you to believe the truth that you may not
01:42:55: Suffer the just punishment the right punishment for your sins, which is eternal condemnation
01:43:01: Amen well guys I want to say thank you for coming on today and helping me out with this episode
01:43:09: It's super late where we're at. I know I know it's late where you're at Joseph, but not as late so lucky you you get an extra hour of sleep
01:43:21: Okay But anyways that's gonna be it for us this week, and we want to say
01:43:28: Thank you to our listeners if you have any questions comments or concerns Email us at Semper that refer
01:43:34: Mondo that radio at gmail .com God bless and have a great week