Biblical Spirituality From The Early Church - [Romans 8]

Romans 8 and the Meaning of Biblical Spirituality

Today's Sunday school is called Biblical Spirituality in the Early Church. As you know, I've been kind of on and off on this theme. Last time I looked at this, we did martyrdom in the early church. Giving Pastor Steve a little break because he's preaching both services today.

So we'll take a little detour for just this Sunday. And next Sunday, we'll be back to looking at the marks of the church, leadership in the church, and so forth. I'd like you to just turn with me to Romans 8.

So we just have a general idea of what spirituality refers to before we get looking at some historical examples of spirituality. I trust that you'll be encouraged by some of these examples. So if we turn to Romans 8, I'd like someone to read for me from verses one through six.

One through six. Can I have a volunteer who can read it loud? Thank you, Fred. Thank you. If you see in verse two, it is the spirit of life that set you free. It's God's spirit that works in us and gives you a brand new life that we now enjoy in Christ.

And then we look at this struggle between the flesh and the spirit. That is an ongoing struggle of sanctification for the believer. We put away the deeds of the flesh and we put on the works of righteousness as the spirit of God enables us as we are led by him.

And so when we think of spirituality, that's basically what I want you to think of. Not the nebulous, I kind of feel spiritual, mystical type of thing. There is some way in which the spirit of God works in us, transforms us, and yet we are also called to follow the leading of the spirit.

So these examples that we're gonna be looking at will take specific areas. It's gonna be kind of, my main theme here is gonna be grace, how the grace of God enables us to walk in the spirit, to be spiritual in the truly biblical sense of that term.

Prayer for Guidance and a Biblical View of Spirituality

So, before I begin, why don't we open with a word of prayer? A loving and gracious father, you've given us a great gift in your son, Jesus Christ, and for sealing us by the Holy Spirit. And father, we seek to follow you with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.

And even this morning, as we look at these exhortations, we pray that you would quicken our consciences, enable us to love you even more dearly, and to follow you with every fiber of our being. In Christ's name we pray.

Amen. Okay, so, before I get into grace, I thought this would be a nice segue on spirituality from last week to this week. So we've been looking at the marks of the church. In particular, we've been looking at leadership.

So I thought I'll take a couple of examples, or certain statements, that some early church fathers have made. And then just, maybe you can think through the past few weeks, what you've studied from Timothy and Titus, and how this works itself out.

What should be your heart attitude in terms of the spiritual walk that you are to have, and as your leaders are called to? So the two men I've picked for this are, one is Gregory Nazianzen, or Gregory of Nazianzus, and the other is Gregory the Great.

Gregory of Nazianzus on the Weight of Pastoral Ministry

Fourth century, Gregory of Nazianzus. He was obviously gifted, and everybody could obviously see that this man had the ability to lead as a pastor, as a bishop. And so they came alongside, and asked him, would you serve as a pastor?

And I think they had a little more than just a verbal invitation. They kind of said, you know, you ought to serve as a pastor. And this man basically ran away from his ordination. Why do you think he did that?

It was the weight of the ministry and the responsibility that he said, you know, I don't know if I can actually do this duty. Yeah, maybe you can see some of these gifts that God has given me matching with the needs that I need to fulfill, but this is just too weighty, too heavy, and I'm not sure I can do it.

So he runs away. And eventually he does come back, and in his actual ordination, he actually gives a speech, a biblical understanding of what pastoral ministry is, and that book that has been recorded for us.

So I'm just gonna pick a few things of what he said on the day that he was ordained. So one of the things he felt, and these were some of the things that were motivating him to run away. So he said, you know, when you think of sin in the life of a believer, what are we normally thinking of?

Maybe I'll ask that out to you. What do you normally think of when you think of sin? Offending God? Yeah, so sin is an offense against God. And typically when I think of sin, I'm thinking of stuff that I ought not to be doing, right?

I think of, you know, maybe I have a propensity to do something bad. Maybe I have a foul mouth, or I have something that I think evilly of someone else, or, you know, these are the things that I am tempted to do.

And so when I think of sin, normally I think of those things that I ought not to do. And Gregory says, you know, I've been, as a believer, I've been trying to put off the deeds of the flesh. I've been trying to put off those things that are wicked.

But I recognize that sin is not just that. You know, I ought to actually, the Bible doesn't just say put off sin. So when I disobey that, that would be sin. But also the Bible says, put on righteousness.

And you ought to live a life of godliness and goodness in a manner that is pleasing to God. So there is both the positive and the negative side. So he said, you know, I just don't feel like I, the term he said is the striving for excellence that ought to characterize every believer, and especially one in leadership.

I just don't feel like I'm doing it as I ought to. So that was the thought process that was going in his mind in terms of why he felt the weight of responsibility of being a leader. And we're gonna see these things.

And I want you to think of these things and we'll ask some questions in the end. These are obviously not just commands for pastors or elders or leaders. This is actually for every believer. Every believer ought to strive for excellence the way in which Gregory was convicted that he was not doing at that point in time.

And then he talks about toils, the toils of a pastor or a leader. He said, you know, there is a physical exhaustion to which you get down to, but Paul talks about the type of exhaustion that he would have in ministry.

He works out, you apply yourself with sweat and tears. And this, when you deal with the heart of man, when you're in ministry, when you're counseling, when you're encouraging, when you're rebuking, you ought to be able to do that with great wisdom and it takes a lot of effort.

And one of the things he, examples he gives us, you ought to know how to give milk, spiritual milk to some, and then to be able to give the wisdom of meat to another. And it takes a lot of discernment to be able to say, you know, here is this brother or sister in Christ that I'm encouraging and I want to be able to discern and be able to give the right spiritual truth, this right scriptures to those people who are in need.

And am I capable of doing that? And he felt, again, the weight of that responsibility too heavy for him. And let me exhort you in, from Gregory's own words, this ought not, I don't want us to be thinking, and this is one of the challenges in the early church.

In the early church, you always see that two level Christianity, you know, where you have the monks who are the special super Christians and then everybody else is this. And then you have the clergy who are like the, you know, called to follow God completely, whereas the laity are, you know, just stay at some mediocre level.

That ought not to characterize the church of God. And as you've been hearing in the Sunday school, every believer is ought to, is called to exemplify these virtues. So when we talk about counseling and as you minister to one another, you want to be thinking of this as well.

You know, how well do I know the scriptures? You know, how well do I want to be precise in my handling of the word in terms of giving the milk and the meat and in serving God and that responsibility of doing that within the local body.

He takes the example of Paul. Paul labors in danger, as you know, shipwrecked, beaten, nearly killed. And at the same time, he rebukes and he exhorts with the right balance. We just finished first Corinthians.

You can just see that when there is a danger, he just basically lays it completely out, kick that guy out of the church. You know, this is unacceptable in God's sight. And yet, you know, he would come alongside and say, dear brothers, to the Corinthians and encourage them to walk and follow after the Lord.

So there is this weighty responsibility of ministry of the soul. And then he also gives a few examples from the Old Testament. In the New Testament, in the church, we have leaders who are pastors. What was, what do you think would be a somewhat equivalent leadership role in the Old Testament?

Priest. So what was the qualification to be a priest in the Old Testament? Levite. And if you had to serve in the temple, you would be of the family of Aaron. There was a sovereign way in which God made you a priest in order for you to serve.

And so he said, don't just presume to just go out and serve in whatever way that you want to, but ensure that you have the call of God on those specific ministries that God is calling you to. Make sure that God calls you before you just thrust yourself into those responsibilities that you have.

And then he gives further exhortation. He says, well, you may still be called, but remember that your calling is not just a one-time deal. You are to follow through on your side. So he gives example of Nadab and Abihu.

And he says, and he gives a lot of examples. I'm just picking one. He says, Nadab and Abihu, they offer the profane fire. God instructed them to do their ministry in a certain way, but Nadab said, well, we'll do things our way.

And they face the judgment of God. Fire comes out and consumes them and they die. And as ministers of God's word, we ought to be very careful in terms of providing what God has prescribed rather than saying, okay, I'm now called so I can do whatever I want.

Because the Bible says those who teach are under greater judgment because God will take an account for what we say. And therefore he says, and no one should run to ministry, which is why he ran away from ministry when it was thrust upon him.

And he had to kind of settle his heart and recognize that, yes, this was indeed a calling, but he needs to come back with the proper instruction. And he says, don't come to ministry until your ears are filled with instruction so that you are equipped in order to minister to the others.

Gregory the Great on Courage, Purity, and Ministerial Qualification

The other person who talks about the role of the pastor is Gregory the Great. Once again, he talks about the equipping for the ministry. We've been studying about this the last few weeks. The Bible says, what are the qualifications?

How do you build yourself up or gifted with these gifts before you can actually serve? And then he also talks about having experience in their walk, not just someone who is just a recent convert, but someone who has lived these truths out and understands these weighty spiritual doctrine before you can actually minister.

And then he talks about something called courage. He said, those who come to ministry ought to be courageous. Courageous. Why do you think you need a leader to be courageous in the church? Face opposition.

Just last week, we heard about false doctrine that just comes up, and normally they don't just come out and have a platonic conversation. It is like, I believe this is right. And when you know what the truth is and you get kicked out or whatever else for it, you need to be bold.

Good. And then he also says the more mundane thing. Make sure that you're not, the Bible, the scripture is greedy for gain. And he says, we live in a culture where leaders are prone to accumulate wealth.

And if that's, you ought to actually not just be watching out for it, you ought to actually fear it because that is a strong temptation that can not just derail your ministry, but it can actually harm the church of God if the leader's focus is on that.

And so he says, the leadership should be pure in their walk and have an example that others can imitate. Now, so that's basically some of the thoughts that these early church fathers had in terms of leadership.

Now, let me just, I think most of this should be pretty obvious. For an elder, these are matched pretty closely with Titus and Timothy in terms of what the scriptural injunctions are. But we've also been saying that as believers, we ought to all grow into that measure.

In one sense, if you are a man here in this local body, it is a good thing to desire to be, to have the office of the elder. We don't want everybody running away from the office like Gregory did. So if you have a desire to want to serve as an elder, that is good and you want to examine it to make sure that it is indeed a call from God.

And that you are indeed equipped. And that we would love for you to meet with the elders and be trained and be validated if this is indeed a genuine call from God. And even if you're not a man, let's say, you are a woman here or someone who you feel I'm not yet equipped to be an elder.

Whatever the case may be, as we saw, all these gifts are good gifts for everybody in the church to have. So my exhortation from this is that you would have that same sense of weight that when I look at sin, think of how you would want your leaders to deal with sin.

When you think of being an example, how would you want your, like Pastor Mike, to be an example in this area? You say, oh, I look up to him. And we also ought to, every single one of us, ought to strive for that excellence, that goodness that God calls us to as we serve Christ here.

And let me stop here. Any questions, any thoughts on how you would want to serve God in this particular manner? All right, with that, we are going down to the spirituality of grace. So this one is, when you think of the early church, there's a lot of legalism built in.

Grace, Evangelism, and Joy in the Letter to Diognetus

So if you read many of the early church fathers, you would see, you know, these guys are just saying, do, do, do. There's not really a lot of trust and rest in God's finished work. But there is also plenty of grace material that you can find in the early church.

So I'm just gonna pick a few examples that I hope will be encouraging to you. One of the letters was a letter to a person called Diognetus. We don't know who the author was, but as you read this letter, it's actually like an evangelism or an apologetic letter.

He's writing to an unbeliever, Diognetus, whom he knows pretty well, a Roman who is probably kind of wealthy, and he is giving him the gospel so that he can get saved. But as he gives him the gospel, what strikes us the most?

It's a very small letter. You can just Google it on, Google it, and then you will find this letter. It's just like a two-page letter. Google it on. Google is so pervasive. So as he talks about the grace of God, so he's evangelizing.

And as he's talking about the grace of God, he basically goes into rapture because as he is speaking, ministering the gospel to this unbeliever, he just starts exulting in the grace of God that has worked in his life.

And he talks about the substitutionary work of Christ, the inability of man to attain to God. And then he just focuses in on this thing because this person doesn't know Christ, the absolute need for Christ to come and be the means of salvation.

He talks about the exchange of unrighteousness for righteousness and all the elements of the gospel that you would give when you go out and evangelize unbelievers. But the thing that I want to point out to you is just the confidence that this person has in God.

It is not just like an abstract, you ought to believe in God. I'm just telling you in a didactic, neutral sense that just presents the truth in an objective way. But rather, there is this experiential joy that this person has experienced.

And he gives all these beautiful truths of grace and from the scriptures. But you cannot help, but see that this person just loves the Lord so much and he wants these Diognitas to experience that same joy that he has as well.

Now, my question to you is this. So this is early church, this is the second century. When you go out and do evangelism, you have unbelievers, what kind of joy characterizes your witness to the truth?

Is that even something that's conscious in your mind in terms of your love for the Lord and the joy that you have in him that overflows in your interaction? Or is it normally more, this guy is going to beat me up and let me just try to find the quickest exit as I'm beginning the gospel.

Some thoughts on your evangelism and joy.

Yes, Joni, excellent example. For those of you who couldn't hear,.

When Christians, when you go through suffering and then respond in a Christ-honoring way, in a way that just they cannot understand, that raises questions. They might have heard that you were a Christian before, but when they see the joy of the Lord in those circumstances where it's anything but joyful, that's a great opening for people to listen.

And in fact, the relationship between this author and Diognitas seems to be that way because the author would write strong words condemning idolatry that is characterizing the Roman religion and what Diognitas exposes.

But I think Diognitas respects what this author is writing, that he's writing to a friend and he is unashamed of the gospel and is able to exude that joy. Any other thoughts on this?

Yes, Peggy, excellent.

And I think that's one thing to always keep in mind when evangelism is, it is not just about this person who opposes Christianity or anything else, but rather, I want to obey God and honor God. And when that becomes foremost in my mind, I'm not just intimidated by the circumstances.

But more than that, I think you also said this very well, which this letter does exemplify, which is there is just a love for the lost that they would just experience that joy that you have that it just overflows.

Thank you. I want to move to another subject here. This is the odes of Solomon. This is even earlier. So late first century and very, very early second century. In Colossians three, you have Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs.

The Odes of Solomon and Joyful Praise in Worship

So this is your spiritual songs of the very, very, very early church. And only one caveat, because it's got tons of good hymns, spiritual songs written. One of them is definitely not Christian. And we don't know if it was inserted later or there was a problem with that particular one, but everything else is really good.

And I want to just say a few things and then reflect on our own spirituality when it comes to worshiping God in song. So these are heavily praise and thanksgiving. That's basically what you see from these hymns.

And their main underlying theme, we're talking about grace, is salvation that comes from God. And he uses a number of, not he, this is a compilation. So there's a lot of poetic metaphors and similes that are used, you know, like the rising of the sun.

There is a sense in which when salvation comes, this great day dawns on us. And we look back at when that sun rose in our lives and then just rejoice that God would make that true in our lives. And then, you know, the biblical analogies of opening, giving new eyes and ears to hear what we couldn't hear until today.

And then also not just the moment of salvation, but also the continued joy. And I think that joy is one of those repeating terms that comes from these texts. They would use examples like the leaping of a baby in the womb or wings in your heart.

And I mean, you can imagine this when you're in love, when you go on a date night with your wife, you just, your heart is, you know, fluttering and going up. And that's basically what they talk about.

There's like, my heart is like with wings as I am in my God's presence. And then they use other more mundane examples, things that they do. You know, I'm the plowman. I furrowed my field and I can just see this rich field ready to, you know, give its harvest in the future.

And it's like, you know, God is just so joyful to me as I reflect on Him. They use all these different analogies in terms of the joy and also the pruning and the circumcision of the heart that God does.

And they are like thankful for this great heights that God gives and also those painful work that God does in our lives for His purposes as He makes us more like Him. And adversity, especially in these early years, as they face those adversities, they just erupt into praise and thanksgiving as they write these spiritual songs, just to thank God for all these things in words.

Now, the reason I brought this particular thing up is just to examine ourselves. What are, how are we spiritual when it comes to songs? If you are in the shower and singing, what kind of songs are the ones that are, you know, just your mind automatically gravitates to?

And maybe let me just open it up. What kind of songs ought to be in our minds when we are showcasing the excellency of our voices in the shower? Yes, Stephen. Yeah, you know, when the hymns and the songs that we have here, as we sing them over and over again, those words just imprint.

I mean, songs have a very powerful way of getting the truth into your heart. And as those tunes and words are stuck in your head, they, you know, almost on autopilot, turn your mind toward God, don't they?

And the challenge there is what goes in is what comes out. So the more I sing these songs, as I, if you have the talent, you write and sing them on your home, the more you do that, the more you can appreciate the beauty of God in all these different circumstances.

But on the other hand, if it is not God-honoring songs and music that you're listening to, then I think you can, like me, I mean, when I got saved, I had a few songs in my repertoire, but most of the times it was the secular music that would just keep coming up.

I don't have to think, it just keeps coming up. And it takes a lot of effort to be replaced by godly, God-honoring, and edifying words. And maybe I throw this question out too, because when I started collecting Christian music, it takes a lot of effort.

You know, there's a lot of Christian music out there that probably may not be that helpful in your spiritual walk. And some of them are, you know, I'm tone deaf, but even I can have a huge struggle listening to some of them.

But the good thing about music is if you keep listening to it long enough, you'll still love it. But are there some good songs that maybe you could encourage one another with songs that are, you know, just praising and thanking God with great music and lyrics that you guys listen to?

What are some of the things you listen to in addition to the hymns that we grew up with? New spiritual songs. Yeah, yeah, just some artists, some examples of songs that are, you know, helpful for just this purpose.

Sovereign Grace. Yeah, they're very popular. I think they put out inexpensive CDs as well with some really God-honoring music and words. Yeah, we have music of different styles. I've actually found some contemporary.

So that's Indelible Grace. Thank you. Anyone else? Yes. Tulip? Okay. Oh, where is Tulip? Are they here? Okay. Yes, Pastor Steve. You know, as I was driving in this morning, I was thinking, you know, sometimes I work through the details of what God is working in some particular circumstance.

And it can kind of get very narrow. And we need those times to just kind of sit back and we worship God and say, you know, my God quakes the mountains. And, you know, he's immense, you know, just reflecting on the attributes and the beauty of God.

Pseudo-Macarius on the Fall, Temptation, and God's Goodness

All right, so let's move to the next subject. And this one is a very interesting subject. I do not recommend this book because it's got stuff that is very hard to interpret. It's again, late third century, Pseudo-Macarius.

They thought it was written by a person called Macarius. The book is called 50 Spiritual Homilies. And some of them, if you read it, it looked like it's Arminian or man-centered. But then there are some sections which are just like, just blow you out of the water, just the immensity of grace.

So I'm just going to pick the bigger theme and then point some things which I think are helpful for us today. One of the big themes of him, he's more of an ascetic kind of guy. He's very well known to the Carpathian fathers, but he focuses on the grand theme of redemption.

So he talks about the state of man after the fall. So he says, here is God making man with, you know, no sin with, you know, God calls him good. And he actually uses some language which is interesting to think of, you know, he has the glory of the Holy Spirit as a garment because they were new.

I'm not sure what to do with that. But he basically says, you know, this man falls, lets all sorts of evil into this world. So the state in which we live in is not, is anything but good. And then he contrasts, you know, God made man to enjoy God.

And instead in this fallen state, the only thing that we enjoy are the folly of sin and evil. And the reason he intentionally goes through this is, you know, this is what we were made for. And this is where we are languishing in.

And his call is one of, you know, how do we come back to enjoying the beauty of God? And he talks about the state, you know, so depraved, cannot look for God or cannot even understand the beauty of this God.

And then he talks about this world. He says, you know, so often we just used to, okay, the world I see and live around. He says, you are under the prince of this world. He's talking about entire humanity.

And the most dangerous part of it is, have no idea that you are under the prince of the world. Every man thinks that he just does what he wants, but he is completely, you know, under the prince of the power of the air, under the darkness that rules this earth.

Like C .S. Lewis, what is that book? The Screwtape Letters, thank you. So it's like the best kept secret. You know, it's like, you don't know that I exist, great. You know, that you can continue in the self-deception that, you know, you are completely leading a life with full freedom and you're going exactly to the best place that you're looking for.

And so he talks a lot about this satanic deceptions that abound all around us, and you ought to be conscious of. And then he says, I mean, he's not like, you know, the Satan made me do it. He brings the charge back down and say, every single man is responsible for every single action that he does because in the core of his being, he is utterly and completely rotten.

And he is just a easy picking for the enemy. And now when it comes to salvation, he talks about the crying out to God. And basically that's what he exhorts the unbeliever. He's like, you ought to cry out to God because you have absolutely no hope in and of yourself.

And then he talks about the grace and mercy that God gives. And then he speaks a lot about the spirit of God that not just converts the believer, gives him a new life, the thing that he'd never had, God now just places within him.

And then he says, okay, now don't stop there. And I think that was a danger in the early church in the time that he was living in because persecution was stopping and then people were all getting complacent.

And that's a very big danger for us today. I got saved, mission accomplished. And he says, it puts you in a place of warfare. And then he makes this statement, which is I think good, worth memorizing.

He says, now that I'm saved, I am in desperate need of God's help to overcome dangers. And these dangers, he says, are like rivers of dragons and mouths of lions and darkness. And it's like, normally I don't look at my temptation and my trials like that.

And that's normally because I don't treat sin as I ought to. I don't abhor sin or the smell of sin or the sounds of sin as they are approaching me. I'm like, okay, God has saved me by grace and I've put off the old man and good enough for me.

He then gives some examples. These are real life examples of people that fell. We talk about the security that believers have and the preservation of, sealed by the spirit. And that is absolutely true.

What God plucks and gives to the son, what is in the hand of the father, nobody can snatch away. The question is, are you one of the called? Are you one who has genuinely trusted in Christ? And so he gives these examples, which should shock you.

This is what happened. So here is a guy who, wealthy guy, gives up all his wealth, distributes it to the poor because of what he perceived as the love of God. In a moment of zeal and passion, just like the rich young ruler, he thought that was his own calling, gives everything up.

Years go down the road and then apostate. He actually basically gives up his faith completely. And think of the next one. This one is a guy, this is in Decius, persecution, which is one of like the most intense persecutions that you see in the early church.

And this guy is like completely broken and he's a confessor, which means if they came into your church and they line you up, they could kill you if you say you don't believe in Jesus Christ. And they could let you go if you said, I didn't believe even just to escape persecution.

This guy confesses, he says, I'm a believer and he gets tortured and broken and thrown into a dungeon. You'd think he's passed the test, well done, good and faithful servant, enter the joy. And what happens to this guy is, as he's ministered to by a Christian woman in prison, falls into fornication.

And he says, don't ever assume that temptation, once you've reached it, it is just gonna stay out of control. You ought to look at this life, it's a dangerous place and you desperately need God's help in order to walk through these rivers of dragons and mouths of lions and darkness.

But while he's cautioning them, he also talks about the joy. As I said, joy is one of these abiding themes. He gives this example of husband and wife and the joy that they share. And he says, there are times when this joy just overpowers the believer so that all the other temporal joys, including the game tonight, this kind of just fade away.

They no longer hold that attraction because you're just in love with God. And what used to be joyful before, not sinful, but just regular joys, no longer hold that attraction. And at the same time, in any marriage, there are times of grief and he's not talking about grief between the spouse, but he says, as God grieves for sin and the circumstances that are around in a godly way for the sinner who wouldn't repent, and you share in that same, the passion of God toward the lost and to the evil that is all around us.

So his thing is this intimate relationship with God that just characterizes in the way in which I enjoy life, I enjoy God, and I also deal with suffering and temptation in particular, and the evil around.

But the overarching theme is the goodness. God is just so good. And both for the desperately wicked sinner and for the believer who is to be sanctified by the spirit. So let me maybe, we're kind of out of time.

I'll just throw these few questions. We can talk about this and close. So what is your view of sin and temptation? I mean, all of us who are saved, we know that sin is bad. Is there a sense in which we ought to be more serious about sin and temptation?

And I'll throw two, three questions, and then we can talk. The second is this whole issue of security in Christ, which really says I trust in God versus an overconfidence in my flesh, which is, you know, I'm saved, you know, I'll do okay.

And then this third thing about your joy in God and the way in which you enjoy God's presence, whether it is in your devotion or in just your daily living. Thoughts, comments on this spiritual walk? Yes, my student.

Great, I think the analogy that is commonly given is I have the cliff and, you know, how far can I go to the cliff's edge before, you know, something, one of my wheels slip off. The right approach is stay as far away from the cliff as you can.

Any other thought yet, Bob? Excellent. Yes, Steve. So it's not just the sin. Okay, we are kind of running out of time. Let me make it short, but we'll take both of you. Yes, Tim. Excellent. Yeah, as God does His work, it reaffirms.

Yes. Through the walk, I had the opportunity to listen. He said to them that it wasn't the big sins that he struggled with, but the real sins. Something in my spirit, I mean, I wasn't very mature at that point in time.

I just said, Dad, something's up, it's wrong. And that pastor fell into a hell-trip later on because he didn't think that the big sins.

Were any wrong. It's a sad example to presume on God's grace, somehow having crossed over a temptation. Good example.