Witnessing to Mormons

Alpha and Omega Ministries presents the Dividing Line radio broadcast. The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence.

The Dividing Line is brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries, the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and Bethany House Publishers.

Your host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

With today's topic, here is Dr. White. And welcome to The Dividing Line. My name is

James White and I'm glad to be with you today and I'm glad to be back from Salt Lake City, Utah.

It is, I'll tell you what, we need to be very thankful for our weather around here. It is beautiful here in the

Valley of the Sun. Those of you who were with us last week recognize that we were at the general conference of the

LDS Church in Salt Lake City. We got started a little late. That's because I was standing there outside the temple with a cell phone to my ear going,

I can't hear anything. But the Lord worked it all out and we had an opportunity of having some of the folks who are up there with us, sharing the gospel, get on the phone and tell some of their experiences.

And I would just like to really ask the Christians in the audience to pray with us for some of the folks that we spoke to.

We had some good conversations and I especially recall a missionary from Denmark that I spoke to.

He had done a mission in Michigan, as I recall. We spoke for quite some time.

I shared a number of passages from the Bible with him that he could not respond to.

He kept saying he believed the Bible. He kept saying that, yes, I do need to draw my beliefs from Scripture.

But he could not respond to the passages that I was presenting to him. The passages were very clear, very directly opposite of the teaching of the

LDS Church, and yet he would not bow to that ultimate authority of Scripture.

And so I would ask those believers in the audience to pray for this young man. We don't know all the identities of everyone, but God does.

He'd know exactly who you're praying for. Pray that God would be pleased to show himself merciful to him, that he would break in upon him and give him that desire to be obedient to the

Word of God that is absolutely positively necessary for anyone to come to a knowledge of the truth.

When we got home, we had a fascinating phone message waiting for us at our office.

I'd love to be able to play it for you, but you're not allowed to do that. So I'll have to, in essence, summarize the phone message that was waiting for us.

A woman called our offices with a very cheerful voice and informed us that she has been a

Mormon for more than 20 years, and that she was so excited to discover that we preach the same gospel.

Now, the only thing I could figure is that she had heard the radio program, the broadcast from Salt Lake City, where I had discussed the gospel.

I had discussed some of the things that we were sharing with people. And she very firmly informed us that we do believe the same things, that we are preaching the same gospel.

She even said that Mormons like us believe in the sovereignty of God. And she then informed us that it was wonderful that even though we didn't know it, we really are

LDS in what we're teaching. And we've listened to that message a number of times over.

And I want to take some time today to respond to that dear lady and try to make it as clear as I possibly can that, ma 'am, you sound like a very nice lady, but no, we are not

LDS, whether we know it or not. And we are not preaching the same gospel in any way, shape, or form.

In 29 trips to Salt Lake City and 15 years out at the Easter pageant in Mesa, we have spoken with many

LDS people. We have talked with many people about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And we know what Mormonism teaches, and we know what the Bible teaches, and the two are very, very different things.

Now, I'm not saying that there are not LDS people who have different views of the gospel than other LDS people.

In fact, I'll be reading from a particular church authority here in a moment who held one view, and I know of at least one professor at BYU who holds a different view, but that's really not the issue.

The issue is, Mormonism couldn't possibly preach the same gospel we are because they don't have a

God who could present the gospel that we present. You see, the gospel of grace in Scripture is dependent upon the eternal, omnipotent, and sovereign

God who has eternally been God and who controls all things. Mormonism does not have a

God such as that. Mormonism has a God who was once a man who lived on another planet, who became exalted to the status of godhood.

And the idea of the sovereignty of God, the idea that God controls all things, that he has a decree that he's working out in this world, that his purpose will be accomplished, simply has no theological basis in Mormonism, and that's why

Mormons do not believe that. Oh, they may believe that God's working toward a particular goal, but the idea that God has all power and that he does his will in heaven and in earth simply isn't available when you consider the fact that Mormons believe that God is an exalted man and that men themselves can become gods.

Now, I wanted to read just a few passages from an apostle of the Mormon Church, Bruce R. McConkie, and please believe me,

I know there are many LDS people who go, well, McConkie wasn't the prophet, and McConkie doesn't define doctrine, so on and so forth, but Bruce R.

McConkie was an apostle of the Mormon Church. And if the Mormon claims concerning apostleship mean anything at all, then obviously he's in a position to define the teachings of Mormonism much more clearly than the

LDS missionary on his bike or the person in the ward chapel who does not hold an official position in the church.

What's more, when we talk about the gospel and specifically the doctrine of justification and how a person is made right before God, very few other

LDS leaders have said as much as Bruce R. McConkie did. In fact, if you do a search of the

LDS collector's library, a CD -ROM of 3 ,000 LDS books, you'll find very few references to justification in a theological sense.

But those you do find, many of them will have been uttered by Bruce R. McConkie. Here are some of the things that he has to say about the

LDS gospel and the concept of justification. He says, for example, in Mormon Doctrine, page 408,

What then is the law of justification? It is simply this. All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations in which men must abide to be saved and exalted must be entered into and performed in righteousness so that the

Holy Spirit can justify the candidate for salvation in what has been done. Obviously, therefore, justification—this is me speaking, not

Bruce R. McConkie—justification comes as a result of doing all those things that were just mentioned.

Also, in the same section on justification in Mormon Doctrine, he said, As with all other doctrines of salvation, justification is available because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, but it becomes operative in the life of an individual only on conditions of personal righteousness.

So, your personal righteousness is the basis upon which justification then becomes operative.

There is a glaring problem here for anyone who is familiar with New Testament teaching about justification.

The terms justification and righteousness are simply different English words translating one

Greek word from the New Testament. That is, to be made righteous or to be justified are the same thing.

So, Bruce R. McConkie is saying, to be made righteous, you have to be righteous, which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever, but LDS theology is not very closely connected to the

New Testament. He also says in Mormon Doctrine, page 330 on Good Works, This doctrine of good works, a doctrine that men, based on the atoning sacrifice of Christ, must work out their own salvation in the kingdom of God, though abundantly attested to in the

Bible, is flatly rejected by many churches in modern Christendom. He goes on to say,

Or that they are justified through faith alone, without works, though good works are then said to follow as a fruit of faith.

He's listing what other churches believe. Then he says, Or that they are predestined to salvation by the election of grace, regardless of the presence or absence of good works, though here again, good works are said to be pleasing to God in the case of those already justified, but not in the case of those not so chosen in favor.

These are positions he's rejecting. And of course, in so doing, he is rejecting the very gospel of Jesus Christ, for he's quite right in saying that Christians believe that good works follow as a fruit of faith.

They're the result of a changed life. Probably one of the saddest statements that I've read from an

LDS leader is this one. Grace is granted to men proportionately as they conform to the standards of personal righteousness that are part of the gospel plan.

Listen to that again. Grace is granted to men proportionately as they conform to the standards of personal righteousness that are part of the gospel plan.

That is, the more righteous you are, the more grace you can get. And if anyone is familiar with the teachings of the

New Testament, that is 180 degrees opposite. Where sin abounded, grace did all the more abound.

And it is the person who recognizes the depth of his sinfulness who is the one who receives the grace of God, not the other way around.

In fact, in his book, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, page 102, Apostle McConkie listed a heresy, heresy number nine, the elect are justified by faith only without reference to good works.

And in describing the Reformation, that great move of God that brought freedom from the yoke of Rome, we read, quote, it was a call to search the scriptures, to turn to Christ rather than the church for salvation and to be justified by faith.

With it came false doctrines about election and predestination, the all -sufficiency of the scriptures and numerous other matters.

It maintained the false and damning doctrines of the creeds relative to God and the Godhead by perpetuating the

Trinitarian concepts of Augustine and Athanasius and the theologians of the Dark Ages. So here,

McConkie identifies really the central doctrines of the Christian faith as false doctrines, doctrines that the

Reformation did not do away with and instead continued to perpetuate.

So the very gospel of Jesus Christ in the Reformation, according to McConkie, was not truly pure at all and that these are false teachings.

Now, going away from Broussard -McConkie for just a moment, turning to the Book of Mormon, there's a passage that I frequently share with LDS people who believe that they believe like we do in regards to grace and salvation.

It's found in Moroni chapter 10, verse 32, and it reads as follows. Yea, come unto

Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness. And if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love

God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ, and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in no wise deny the power of God.

Now, listen carefully to what is said. If ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love

God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you.

My friends, I've said many times that is mission impossible, the mission impossible salvation plan.

You cannot rid yourself of all ungodliness, and you cannot love God with all your might, mind, and strength, outside of his grace, making it real in your heart, bringing you to new spiritual life.

It's called regeneration. And yet, in the Book of Mormon, first you do those things, then the grace of God meets you and carries you the rest of the way.

In fact, when you look into the LDS Bible dictionary under the word grace, you discover there that it is described as a power that helps you to attain to salvation after you have expended your own best efforts.

Well, my friends, there's no one who does expend their own best efforts.

Hence, obviously, if grace only meets you after you've done your best, grace will never meet you.

That is not the biblical teaching, that is not the teaching of the scriptures, that is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And so, to anyone who thinks we are proclaiming the same message, realize we don't believe the same things about justification, we don't believe the same things about faith, about the role of grace, the sufficiency and sovereignty of grace, and of course, the very goal of salvation is completely different between Christianity and the

LDS faith, and we'll talk about that in just a moment. First, I want to remind you that we're here every

Saturday afternoon at 1 .30 to share with you the truth of God's word. Thanks to some very kind folks.

First of all, my publishers, Bethany House Publishers, very kind to help bring this program about.

And I'm very pleased to mention that, Lord willing, in just a matter of weeks, we will see my newest

Bethany House book coming out called The Forgotten Trinity. This is a book that defines and defends the doctrine of the

Trinity on a biblical basis. There are only a few books on the Trinity. Most of them are either very long or very complex or very difficult to read, or they're extremely short and really don't address a lot of the biblical issues.

We've tried to address the person in the pew, the regular Christian's concerns about this issue, and provide a biblically -based discussion of the doctrine of the

Trinity, and that book's called The Forgotten Trinity. And at the very latest, we hope to have it by November 16th, and I'm doing everything

I can so that we can have it before then. But hopefully, mid -November, we'll be able to have

The Forgotten Trinity. Also brought to you by Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. I am very pleased to be an elder there.

Me and my family have been. I and my family have been there. I need to get the grammar right. For nine years now, and you're invited to come worship with us at 3805

North 12th Street. I teach the Sunday morning Sunday school for the adults, beginning at 9 .30,

and the worship service begins at 10 .45. The evening service on Sunday is at 6 .30, and Wednesday prayer service is at 7 o 'clock.

That's at 3805 North 12th Street. And if you want to call the church for further information, the number is really easy to phone number, 26

Grace. 26 Grace is the number. And we also at Alpha Omega Ministries have a website and a

Christian information system, and I'm joined by Ministry President Rich Pierce. And what is a

Christian information system? James, the Christian information system is a phone number that folks can call.

It's 973 -4602, and they can call and they can listen to messages, oh, about five minutes long each, several messages in a computer system for Mormons, for Jehovah's Witnesses, for Roman Catholicism, and even for atheism.

And we're working on some of those sections right now and trying to get them up and running. But the LDS section, the

Mormon section, has many messages on it right now. There's a seven -part series running right now on there about the false prophecies of Joseph Smith.

And they can dial 973 -4602. And if you're out of state or out of the area, it's 602 -973 -4602 to access that system.

It's very informative. And if they want to get on our webpage, you and I both spend time working on that little thing.

You spend more time than I do these days. How would they get hold of that? They can reach us at www .aomin .org.

That's www .aomin .org on the internet. And pretty soon we'll be putting some pictures,

I hope, up on the site from our recent trip up to Salt Lake City. In fact, we got some pictures of us doing the radio program up there in Salt Lake City.

That's right. And what's more is we also have, and we'll be archiving, our radio programs from the beginning on RealAudio, thanks to the folks at StraightGate .com.

Right. In fact, we have some debates that are available on RealAudio right now. And I just got word that the debate we did with Tim Staples on Sola Scriptura in Fullerton, California is available now.

We need to put that link up there. But someone can get on there, and if they have RealAudio, which is also free, they can listen to the debate we did on Sola Scriptura against a former

Protestant, now Roman Catholic, Tim Staples. There were about 900 people there, about 700 of them were

Roman Catholics, and the other 200 of us were Protestants. And that's the one where I got chased around during the break by a little nun with a rosary saying, you need to pray to Mary.

So that was a very interesting evening. You don't get to hear that part on the tape. But www .aomin

.org is the address for our webpage. Now, we were mentioning that there are some tremendous differences between the

Mormon view of salvation and the Christian view. And one of the greatest is, of course, what the goal is.

You see, when you're talking to a Mormon and you say the word salvation, you have to define your terms.

For some Mormons, well, for all Mormons, actually, there are two kinds of salvation. There is a universal salvation, which is simply the same as resurrection.

A Mormon can say, we're all saved by grace, because what that means is we'll all be resurrected by grace.

That's not exactly what we have in mind when we're talking about salvation. Particular salvation or individual salvation in Mormon theology is more often referred to as exaltation.

That is, the highest that God has in Mormonism is exaltation.

Not just salvation, but exaltation, exaltation to godhood. And Mormons are very clear to point out that exaltation to godhood is not something that's done by grace alone.

It's not done through faith alone. But there are tremendous things one must go through.

One must go through the temple endowment ceremony. If one is a man, one must be sealed to his wife for time and eternity. If one is a woman, a woman's exaltation is dependent upon her marriage to her husband.

It is a very patriarchal system. But the very goal of quote -unquote salvation in Mormon theology is to become a god.

The goal of salvation in the Bible is to be conformed to the image of Christ, is to be made like our

Lord and Savior, to be made perfect men, not gods. Now, someone might say, well, isn't

Jesus God? And therefore, if you're made like him, does it make you a god? Well, since God says in Isaiah 43, 10, before me there is no god formed and there should be none after me.

And to truly be a god means you have to have eternally been god and will eternally be god. We are creatures.

We exist on a completely different level than God does. We are dependent upon him for our very existence.

And so, it is not something that the Lord Jesus inherited, his deity, that then would be passed on to joint heirs with him.

He became flesh and entered into human existence to die upon the cross as the sacrifice of the sins of God's people.

But the idea that because we are joint heirs with Christ means we have to become gods does not follow.

As a friend of ours who passed away during the LA riots used to put it, if a person died and left $1 ,000 to his son and $1 ,000 to his cat, that might make his cat a joint heir with his son but does not make the cat a human.

That was good old Wally Tope and he came up with some interesting ways of putting things and we certainly miss him.

But that is a very good illustration and we do exist on a different level. We are creatures of God.

We are his creation. As the Bible clearly says, we are the clay. He is the potter.

He forms us as he wishes to. And as Isaiah 29 .16 points out, those individuals who would confuse the potter with the clay or would think that the potter is equal to the pot are people who turn things upside down.

They are reversing things. They're standing things on their head and that's exactly what Mormonism in its theology does.

It stands things upon its head. Now just one passage of scripture

I wanted to share with you in regards to the things that Bruce R. McConkie said. If you are ever dealing with the issue of what it means to be made righteous in God's sight, if you need to know how a person is made righteous in God's sight, turn to the book of Romans.

Begin reading at chapter 3 verse 9 where you'll read about the sinfulness of man and then work through the tremendous section beginning at chapter 21 verse 21 that talks about how apart from law,

God has revealed a righteousness in and through Jesus Christ.

And then chapter 4 will address to you the topic of justification and its relationship to works.

And specifically this passage I want to share with you very quickly. Now to the one, this is

Romans 4 .4, now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor but as what is due.

But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

What's Paul's point? If you go into work and you pick up your paycheck and there the person says, here's a gift for you, you go, that's not a gift,

I worked for that. If you work with the expectation of receiving a reward, then getting your wages, that's not grace, that's what you do.

That's what verse 4 says. But verse 5 says, but to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Do you want to have righteousness before God? Well then you cannot come to him thinking that you can earn something from him by anything that you do.

That will short circuit the gospel of grace. Grace plus works is dead, as the title of a tract that we pass out amongst the

Mormons is. That is, you cannot add human works to God's grace. God's grace must be free or it is not grace at all.

Now just to demonstrate how tremendously opposite of that teaching is the

Mormon teaching. Joseph Smith changed this section of the Bible. And if the nice lady who called us is listening,

I hope you'll look at your edition of the LDS Scriptures, look at the Joseph Smith translation end notes, and you will see that Joseph Smith changes this passage because he could not understand the description of God as him who justifies the ungodly.

See, that's the gospel. That God, in his mercy, in his grace, on the basis of the perfect work of Jesus Christ, justifies ungodly people.

That's the only hope we have. Joseph Smith thought that we could make ourselves righteous.

Joseph Smith thought that we had capacities far beyond what the Bible teaches we do. And therefore, he changed

Romans 4, 5, and it no longer says him who justifies the ungodly. Instead, it says him who does not justify the ungodly.

Joseph Smith's mind, God does not justify ungodly men by faith in Jesus Christ.

As Moroni 10, 32 said, you have to rid yourself of all ungodliness. You have to love God with all your might, mind, and strength.

Then the grace of God comes in. My friends, that is a false gospel.

It will not save. And if we care about the LDS people, if we love them, we will speak the truth to them about these matters.

And that's what we're about with Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us, Alpha and Omega Ministries, at Post Office Box 37106

Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. If you like the old -fashioned way of doing things, that is. PO Box 37106

Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. Our webpage, www .aomin

.org. And Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church also has a webpage. Some of the sermons and Bible studies that I've done are available there, as well as our pastor,

Don Frey, at www .prbc .org, www .prbc

.org. You can call the church, 26 Grace. You can call us at 973 -0318, 973 -0318, during regular business hours, that is.

If you'd like to get some information concerning the ministry, if you'd like to get hold of the tracts that we have, get hold of any of my books, you can get them from the ministry.

Tapes, debates that we have done, that type of thing, is all available for you at 973 -0318, right here.

And if you're outside this area code, it's 602 -973 -0318.

Thanks for being with us. Be with us again on The Dividing Line next week, 1 .30 on Saturdays.

The Dividing Line is a presentation of Alpha and Omega Ministries. You can contact us at 602 -973 -0318, or you can write us at P .O.

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. We are easy to find on the

World Wide Web at www .aomin .org. That's www .aomin

.org. You can also find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracts on our website.