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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.
And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. The only dividing line of the week unless we can talk somebody else into it unless we have a volunteer step forward and say I'll. I will host the dividing line on on Thursday, but.
What's that.
Craig Wray.
Where did that come from my goodness, I mean how long has it been since we saw a Craig Wray. It's been. I'll never forget when I got my first Alpha Omega watchdog committee Letter from from Craig Wray and it was the the heading on the letter was made in Magic Marker and.
But yeah, I remember that but I really hadn't thought of old Craig and since probably last Last Easter pageant, I would say what is Easter this year? I don't know either. We're gonna find out because maybe we'll have to show it back up out there and The King James only guys didn't really show up last year.
So maybe they got bored. They may be finding somebody else to bother these days. Who knows? Anyway, that's not what I was gonna be talking about today. Welcome to the dividing line not gonna be here on Thursday.
That's how we got sidetracked. Maybe we can find Vicki and and channel says she'll do it. Barry will do it. Something like that. We should get Rosie to do it. I think Rosie Rosie would do a great job.
Starting off. I'm not sure what she'd do the rest of the hour, but You can get Rosie on there and something like that that would be that would be good. I have Jamin want to talk about stuff like that this early in the morning.
I have no earthly idea. It's like come on. Can't we just talk about that and channel and leave it there anyway. Got stuff going on this week next week and the week after in the United Kingdom. Will try somehow at some point to do a dividing line.
It won't be easy because I'm moving from place to place or a lot of traveling. Since I go from London up to Dublin and then Dublin over to Glasgow and Glasgow back down to London. It's not gonna be as easy to to find a time to do something, but we'll try to remember remember what happened last year.
When I was in in London, in fact, I was in London in late February last year and Remember remember what happened then that was that was when we posted the first post. Where I had corresponded with a certain Ergon Kanner on the subject of his claims to have debated Shabbir Ali and that happened.
I received the note from Mr. Khan. When I was between planes I was in Philadelphia getting ready to board for Heathrow and That's when I got the email and At the time I couldn't download the file to listen to it.
I didn't have enough time. And so it was when I got to London got checked into my hotel. That I listened to the file realized. Yes. Indeed. He had claimed that and that's when I wrote to Shabbir Ali. Shabbir Ali responded within 20 minutes and that's when I wrote to Ergon Kanner and the all all the rest of it as they say.
Is.
History. And so yeah get Ergon to host a program. That would be interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, that would be Very interesting. We'd have Ergon and Shabbir on at the same time. That would be hi. Nice to meet you. Mr Dr. Kanner never met you before but I hear you say you've met me. We debated, Nebraska.
Okay. So that's what started it all but even then even then it was only over the next it was pretty much in March that people Started going, you know, you know These dates don't match these things don't this doesn't work, right?
There's some problems here and Well, we all know what happened from that point onward one of the tasks that will be mine over in the United Kingdom on The 12th of February right toward the end of my time there Will be to debate Bassam Zawadi on whether Islam misrepresents Christianity Especially in its sacred book Called the Quran and we will be looking at that I want to spend a few moments at the beginning of the program today listening to a few more statements from Bassam and responding to them once again, I have used my Sonocent audio notetaker program, which I'm gonna have to keep watching it.
It would be nice if this would show up in Mac sometime too, but It's a Windows program, but hey, you know, I could probably install it using wine or one of those other programs that runs those those crazy window things, but anyway, I wanted to address a couple of His statements in regards to the deity of Christ not the entire thing but actually, I'm gonna skip down to I Think it's this one right here.
Is this the one I'm looking? Well, that's just it. No, I think it's this one here I'm I'm gonna try this one. Let's try. I Have all these pretty colors on my screen. Let's try this one. I think This is the statement.
I'm looking for we will find out. Well, let's let's listen.
You know one thing that means Saudi we're concerned about regarding Christianity was that we were afraid that you guys might because many Muslims have misconceptions about what Christianity is and We wanted to make sure That you guys don't have these misconceptions because a lot of Muslims they might think.
Okay, Christians believe All I have to do is sit back and believe Jesus died for me and I could go and party and do whatever I want. Christians don't believe that so you have to make sure that you don't have misconceptions about their faith because if you talk to them and This is what you think of them.
They're gonna say this guy doesn't know anything about my faith. So the way I want to know.
So there was another statement later on and maybe I'll run across it play it later on where it said something similar and that is you know, I want to applaud Bassam for seeking to encourage his listeners to have an Accurate knowledge of what they are criticizing and We all you know When when you end up disagreeing with someone about their faith The first thing is to accuse somebody of just not understanding it or misrepresenting him and Fully understand that I fully understand how it works and look on both sides of this particular divide it is difficult to Stand from the audience say and say Muslims believe.
Now are you talking about a Sunni are you talking about a Shiite? Are you talking about some of the smaller groups that the Sunnis wouldn't even say are Muslims. I mean, I've listened to well-known Sunni scholars.
Just ripping on the Shiites just just accusing them of not really being Muslims at all. And of course you hear that from the other direction as well when you listen to the Shiites with much more passion normally from the Shiites and then you've got the Druze and you've got the Ahmadi and and you've got all these these groups and and Look, it is hard on our side of the fence here to to really figure out exactly where.
Everybody stands and even amongst the Sunnis you've got all these different groups with different emphases and and then you throw the Sufis in for the fun of it and and It can get rather complicated and Let's let's be honest from the other direction.
Can you imagine what it's like to be raised as a Muslim without almost any knowledge of? Christianity whatsoever and looking over at what we've got. I mean you see the you see the Pope and you see Roman Catholicism and the Mormon missionaries go by and they talk about Jesus and the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door and they talk about Jesus and Once in a while you stumble across TVN on cable.
And the the result look folks, you know, we sort of have to bend over backwards I think.
To.
To try and it's this isn't naturally easy for us to do but we have to try to recognize that a lot of folks even folks who oppose us and Who oppose gospel preaching. We cannot be 100 certain that they really have a clear understanding of what the truth is in the midst of all the babble that's out there and so, you know, we have to ask them for patience when we.
You know.
I I try to I try to normally couch my presentations in language such as the vast majority of Sunni Muslims Will say and I'll honestly tell folks. I I don't really Don't know. Shiism the way I should. I've got a few books haven't gotten through them yet maybe if I could get them on my Kindle or something get through a little faster, but You know, it's it is hard To get a beat on everything.
And so I try to say well the vast majority of most will say something like rather just simply saying well Muslims say this. Because you'll always run across an exception of the rule somewhere along the line but the same time, you know when you when you look at their responses to us.
We need to try to realize that. You know for a lot of them They look at Protestants as just stepchildren of the real Christianity and they see remember what happened when when? Ratzinger Benedict the 16th quoted from a medieval writer about the violence of Islam and You had violence all over the place.
It's a sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. These folks are violent well, we are not and then they get violent and you know, but they look at Rome as The very representative of Christianity now at the same time a lot of them once they start doing some reading start going, you know I don't see anything in the New Testament about all this stuff that Rome teaches, but that's that's that's another issue so I do appreciate the statement that you know, we need to accurately represent what the other side is saying as best you can.
Sometimes that is that is difficult to do let's continue. It's back up a little bit in the lecture actually I want to address some of the statements that the psalm made about the deity of Christ and then probably after the half-hour mark or something like that, we'll get to our Get to our calls which are interestingly on a wide variety of subjects the Jesus claimed divinity.
Now, let's look at some of Jesus's statements in the Gospels. Matthew 24 36. This is what Jesus said. No one knows about that day or hour meaning the day of judgment. Not even the angels in heaven nor the son.
He's referring to himself nor the son, but only the father. So the only person the only one who's omniscient the only one who knows when the day of judgment would come is the father. He excluded himself.
Now, what are they going to say? They're going to say well you see Jesus had two natures. So when he became man that also means he became limited so that's why Jesus didn't know when the last day was.
Yeah, but Jesus is God. How did he know in the last week? That's because he became a man. So he let go of his attributes of being omniscient being all-knowing. But then you could argue back. Well, if the Trinity is there then you also have the Holy Spirit.
How come the Holy Spirit didn't know about the last day. The Holy Spirit didn't become a man. So how come only the father knows of the last day. This one is the clearest verse.
Now actually, I think that last statement is Introducing the next one. We're gonna listen to maybe I could be wrong about that. We'll see here in a moment, but we've we've all heard this text raised over and over again in regards to well, Jesus can't be God because Jesus is not omniscient and The psalm recognizes that most responses to this focus upon the fact that Jesus was incarnate that there was some kind of Self-limitation in regards to the incarnation in regards to for example the the veiling of his glory the exercise of divine power And things like that, but what caught my attention is I was listening to this again was you know what I would like to ask is Again concerning the consistency of my Muslim friends and their use of Scripture.
Whenever they cite texts that they think support their position They they never bother to address the the textual issues or the textual backgrounds. There is a textual variant in this text. Nothing was mentioned about that but what's more is Does the psalm really believe that Jesus said this.
Did you notice a little something this is this is where. You know, I probably heard this. I don't know how many times before it struck me the the irony of.
A.
Of a Muslim citing this text and The irony is what is the name of the Sun here? What how does how does the Sun refer to himself as the Sun and Isn't that the very thing that? Islam denies to Christ that he's the Son of God and That he uses this language of himself.
Or does he use this language of himself, but doesn't just but doesn't mean Son of God by it. I mean I I had challenged the psalm in an email and and I decided not to pursue the email exchange because they just get bigger and bigger and bigger and they just They just eat all your time up but I I had just I had once again raised what strikes me as a as a tremendous inconsistency in Islamic thinking and that is Muslims will accept.
The.
Non-historical ascription of words to Jesus found in the Quran and and from any historians perspective the words of the Quran When relating to Jesus are non-historical, how can they be anything else?
They don't claim that the Quran was written at the time of Christ. They don't claim that it's based upon documents that go back to the time of Christ. The words of Jesus recorded in the Quran have to be taken as direct Revelation period end of discussion.
There's there's there's no claim that well, you know, Muhammad had access to these records that had been Written long ago and nobody else had them. No, there's there's nothing like that. It's divine revelation.
And so by divine revelation Jesus speaks in the Quran and these words are not historical. They do not go back to the time of Jesus and yet they'll accept that because well, this is the Word of God now if I Respond to almost any criticism of what the Bible says by saying well, it's just the Word of God you have to believe what it says.
Then they're like well this scholar says this and this scholar says that's uncertain and and we can cut Paul up into pieces and John up into pieces and And we can put this verse against that verse and we can follow all those scholars, but when it comes to our book We won't apply that standard in any way shape or form and I just pointed out I had gone back to one of the earliest papyri manuscripts and I had pulled out a graphic of Words from Jesus in John 8 58 where he uses the the ego I me phrase of himself and I said, you know here we have in the earliest Manuscripts we possess of the New Testament this claim of Jesus which which is so clearly a claim of deity and yet Someone will believe what is written 600 years later.
That could never be ascribed to the historical Jesus at all and the basis upon which they reject the historicity and accuracy of the first is Completely inconsistent with the basis upon which they accept the accuracy of the second.
If they were to apply the same type of quote-unquote scholarly standards. That a critic of the New Testament applies that leads him to end up questioning the validity of New Testament text then The entirety of everything Jesus says in the Quran would not even be put on the table for examination.
It's not even in the historical realm from their perspective.
And.
That was the the inconsistency that that I saw there and I think there's an inconsistency here, too. Well, it says right here in Matthew 24 these and how do you know these words are accurate in light of Your criticisms of every other text where Jesus is called God.
Where's where is the consistency here? That's that. I think I have been consistent in calling for consistency and You know I don't mind at all being challenged as to whether I am being consistent in the standards that I'm using and I would I would Expect the psalm to challenge me On the 12th to be consistent in my exegesis of the Quran and I will seek to be so but at the same time I'm I'm going to be challenging the psalm and and I what I really hope this debate is on the 12th by the way is is not a High-speed talking throw everything but the kitchen sink out type of thing.
I want to engage with the psalm. I want to look at a limited number of texts in the Quran because there's only a limited number to look at in the first place but even more so be focused upon the main issues and And basically ask the question if the Quran is going to condemn me to an eternity in hellfire.
For believing what the Apostles of Jesus Christ taught and that's what it does. Then I need to have some reason I have to need to have some basis for a Believing that the author of the Quran knew what the disciples of Jesus taught and.
Be.
Understood what it is that Christianity is actually teaching. I need to have that. I mean if you're gonna believe a document that comes along 600 years later with no No historical connection at all To the events of Jesus life to the early church anything like that then There's a there's a burden of proof That needs to come along there.
You don't just start there. Is there has since this book talks about? The Torah in the Injil. Since it talks about Moses and it talks about Jesus and specifically says they were given revelations in which was light and guidance.
Well, that means this last one needs to stand up to scrutiny. This last revelation from the Islamic perspective needs to stand up to scrutiny. And the question is does it? Well, I I don't think it does.
Let's listen to the next objection. Jesus says this. Okay. Yeah that that preceding statement was about this. I'm gonna back it up here. So here's here is the clearest Denial of the deity of Christ from Bassam's perspective.
This one is the clearest verse and I think the strongest one and you will not find a proper response to this. Jesus says this now this is eternal life that they may know you he's talking to the father that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
Notice how Jesus is telling the father you are the only true God and then he separates himself From the father. He's clearly telling the father. You are the only true God now. What does the Trinity teach.
The Trinity teaches the father is God. The son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. He can't say the father is the only true God. If you're saying the father is the only true God that means that the son is not God that the Holy Spirit is not God.
So you're going to see ridiculous responses today to this. They're going to say the father is the only true God. The son is the only true God and the Holy Spirit is the only true God which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
What is the Holy Spirit like? I know that the son is Jesus and the father is God. What is the Holy Spirit like? Well, they'll you see they believe that each person in the Godhead has a different role.
The father's main role is that he has the authority. He would send the son. God's the son to die for the sins of the world after that is done. Anyone believes in that then God the Holy Spirit will come and dwell inside of you to support you.
So each one has his role you see. So now we see in Johnny 17 3 that Jesus clearly states that the father is the only true God.
Now.
For quite some time. I've had a response to this up on YouTube. Back from my debate with Hams Abdul Malik in 1999 I do think that there is confusion on the Psalms part at this point. We're later on going to hear some statements that Seem to indicate a Continued confusion and misunderstanding of the existence of divine persons the relationship of the divine persons.
There is a Somewhat of a reference I think in the statement that was in the response that was made to my own Assertions on this particular subject, but you'll notice that as is almost always the case when Muslims address this they only address verse 3.
They do not read it in context, even though Bessam would say He will argue for example that.
In.
What is it the mark the mark in passage where the rich young ruler comes up to Jesus? He says well, you've got to read the context always read the context that will refute their answers to to that. But for some reason when it comes to John 17 He doesn't read the rest of the context and doesn't deal the fact that for example in verse 3 Jesus.
Well, not only get again. He recognizes who's who is he addressing here? Why would he use terminology such as father and son father? The hour has come glorify your son. That the son may glorify you. I thought God didn't have a son.
I thought the Quran said Len yellowed while I'm you lid. I thought that that there was fundamental to Islamic theology that Jesus would not use such things. He's a mere Rasool. He is not the son. In the way that he's using this and that the son may glorify you since you have given him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all Whom you have given him so why not start with the beginning of the prayer?
Where Jesus is given the power? He has been given authority over. Oh, wait a minute. I thought Jesus was only sent to the Jews. Isn't that the Islamic perspective that Jesus is only sent to the Jews. He's just he's just the Jewish Messiah and yet Jesus says since you have given him authority over all flesh and what prophet is Given the authority and power to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
What prophet is given the people of God? I? Mean, I think you can argue on the basis of John 17 to that if you want to have eternal life. Then you have to be given by the father to the son. That's exactly what John 6 taught chapters earlier.
The themes continue and the themes the centrality of Christ the salvation of God's people throughout all generations. Not just the Jewish people. So why not start there that really would seem to be the direction to go.
But then you have the statement this is eternal life. That they know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent two parts in having eternal life knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ who's been sent by the only true God and of course the Islamic idea as well that since we assume Unitarianism and the father is the only true God that means that that Jesus can't be God.
So to have eternal life, you have to know the only true God and a creature. Well, I suppose if John chapter 17 ended at verse 3, I suppose you could. You could you know? Try to make that argument but It doesn't end there.
I glorified you on earth having accomplished the work that you gave me to do and Now father glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. What mere prophet shared in the very personal glory of God himself before his birth well again It would seem that if the psalm follows his own stated Methodology he would need to deal with what comes before John 17 3 and what comes after John 17 3 especially it says this is the clearest one really Jesus is called son.
He is given authority over all flesh. He's the source of eternal life. You have to know him to have eternal life and he pre-existed with the father in a glorious state before his birth. Hmm, is that really where you want to go?
I? Don't I don't think so.
John 2017. Jesus said do not hold on to me for I have not yet returned to the father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them I am returning to my father and your father to my God and your God. How can a God have a God?
Now there's there's a statement I was saying how can a God have a God. Well, if you're a Unitarian That's not possible. But if you are deriving your theology from the scriptures Then you have to notice what that you have one God Yahweh and you have three distinct persons described with that one name of Yahweh, which is why Christians believe in the Trinity.
And that incarnate one Who came to earth? took on human flesh and. That was my whole point and why I keep asking people when they raise objections like this. If God if if one of the divine persons became incarnate would that one incarnate one be an atheist?
Would he not have communion? with the father with whom he's had communion for eternity. Would he stop that communion and What is communion with God called when you are in the flesh. It's called prayer so.
Again just misunderstandings a lack of understanding of what's being criticized. Resulting in arguments that really are not arguments at all.
Again the responses that you're going to see to this Sometimes don't don't just leave you speechless. You just don't know how to reply back to their response because It's just so empty and shallow. You just have nothing to reply back.
The son is the only true god the father is the only true god. How are you going to reply back to this? This makes no sense. So the point is to show that listen the verses that are clear the verses that I read under plain reading.
Show that jesus is not god.
So here you have the the claim. Well, these are. I'm just giving the plain reading. Why not deal with all the texts where the plain reading clearly indicates that jesus is god and then understand it all consistently?
I mean we've heard nothing about the key text the presentation of jesus as creator is yahweh. The use of god if you're going to quote john 2017. Quote john 2028. Where thomas says my lord and my god and jesus identifies that as a statement of faith.
Could any muslim prophet? Be called lord and god and then say that's a statement of faith. Of course not. And so what's normally said? Oh, well, those are corruptions. Well, if john 2028 has been corrupted.
How do you know john 2017 hasn't been corrupted? Consistency consistency consistency. I was looking for it.
Also, it says in the gospel of luke and it came to pass in these days that he meaning jesus went out into a mountain to pray. And continued all night in prayer to god. How can god pray to god?
Again, uh, these these all just demonstrate a misunderstanding of the psalm's part of what the doctrine of the trinity is. Uh, which is unfortunate. Uh, how can god pray to god? Well, that was the son communicating with the Father a communication which according to john 1 -1 had been going on eternally uh between two divine persons and continues in the incarnate state.
Since we have so many phone calls. I'm gonna go ahead and stop there. I had a few more queued up, but go ahead and stop there and Maybe continue on after we get back from london. I don't know. Maybe we'll have more important things to talk about when you get back.
I don't know. We will see but uh, many people have been calling 877 -753 -3341. Uh, where are we going? There's so many here. I can't uh, I can't even tell what. Uh, well, I I guess we'll get jayman out of the way first here.
He called in first. So jayman, uh. Not going to continue the conversation from channel last night if that's what we're looking for. But if it's a different subject we can go with it.
Well, no, I didn't expect to continue the conversation, but uh, I did have a question. This is this is something I tried to get in last week.
Um.
But I wasn't available, but uh, I was just reading through raymond systematic theology and it's you know, it's obviously a wonderful work uh, but There was just a footnote that I I wanted your thoughts on.
And it was on page 937. He says. So closely connected is the sign circumcision and the spiritual reality it signifies. The verities of the covenant of grace that steven is willing to describe the abrahamic covenant.
By its sign he states that god gave the covenant of circumcision act 7 8. And I guess reading that first time I I felt like he kind of just turned the meaning of the text upside down.
But well, especially since is is he talking about steven in in act 7.
He gives a citation. 7 8. Yeah.
So you see you're talking that you're talking to circumcised people who are clearly unregenerate and yet the the. The point is that the sign is uh is so closely related to the reality uh, it would it would seem that the reason for the statement is to bring further judgment upon men who were obviously so enamored with the sign that they didn't have the spiritual aspect of it themselves, but Um, I don't have raymond in front of me to read the context or anything.
So I you know it again all it all goes back to what is the fulfillment of that sign in the new covenant? I believe it's regeneration, uh, richard bersellus's article on colossians 2 Uh demonstrating that it's regeneration.
That's a fulfillment of circumcision circumcision not baptism. I think is very very useful. I may just ask richard if I can just uh, Uh post that someplace. Uh, I know it's in rbtr, but I it may be if it's available online someplace I want to be able to track it down for folks I just think it's it's it's very straightforward.
Um, the the superiority of of the new covenant is found in the reality of the fact that those uh Those things that under the old covenant, but however you want to find that Uh, we're looking forward to greater fulfillment Are found in the spiritual working of the spirit of god and bringing about regeneration for all of those Who are in the new covenant and it's all it's all going to keep devolving back to that.
We can we can chase rabbits, uh all across the desert landscape out here in phoenix. We want to. It all comes back to that that particular issue as far as i'm as far as I can see.
Okay, uh, so I mean the the covenant of circumcision in this text is not to be lumped together with.
The covenant of grace. Well, which uh.
Act 7 8.
That's interesting. My log us won't sign anymore. That's that's that's great. Uh, then i'll go to it in a different program here and i've never seen that happen before but I live by technology die by technology, I suppose.
And he gave him the covenant of circumcision so abraham became the father of isaac and circumcised. What. So so he's saying that since there is circumcision here this means.
Yeah, he says stephen is willing to describe the abrahamic covenant by its sign.
Well, okay, so.
Uh.
When when paul Discusses abraham as the father of the faithful in romans 4 Why is it that abraham? It can only be the is the only one that can be described as the father of the faithful and not isaac.
Because abraham had his faith and was justified before receiving the sign. And isaac and all the others would have received the sign prior to their justification so I you know, uh. Yeah, it you you can obviously utilize that that terminology.
But what does that mean? Does does that somehow mean that the that the sign is? is uh more important Than the faith upon which the justification took place. Uh, you know, I don't I don't see how that works but.
Anyway, okay. All right. Thank you. Okay. Thanks, man. Yeah. See ya. Uh, let's.
Got lots of people here. Let's go up to uh, aaron. Hi aaron. Hello aaron. Yes, sir.
Um, I just had a quick question. I know you said there's a lot of varied topics this i'm sure this is another uh, you know topic that you weren't expecting to discuss but uh I was uh talking with a seventh day at venice a couple days ago slash debating with him.
Um,. And basically he asked me, you know where I can find uh, you know, the uh, the evidence for the evangelical church, uh throughout history and it really occurred to me how uh incredibly it well, I guess you'd call it revisionist history, uh, as far as um, if you watch certain catholic programs and even you know.
Just what the seventh day at venice was telling me about certain people like the albacenses and the waldensians.
And uh, basically they smear them up and down the wall and say that, you know. They were non-trinitarians and they had you know consolamentum which was you know, their own specific sacrament that they relied on.
Uh, but one thing I realized I was looking for a book. Uh, well, it's huge. So thank you forever to actually read the whole thing, but I read a couple of statements of faith in the martyrs mirror. Um in creeds from the albacenses and the waldensians and I was shocked to see that they were utterly almost identical.
To a typical evangelical statement of faith from today. So I just didn't know if you had any comments or. You know if you could help out and clarify for people how you know people are leading, uh, you know catholic for instance.
Uh, you know catholic apologetics, uh. Or apologists rather and uh, like I said my seventh day at venice friend on the phone.
You know, it's there like there is evidence there in the history.
I'm a little confused. The seventh day of venice part here I I understand catholics and the the baldensians and albagensians and so on and so forth. Where where's where the seventh day of venice coming from.
How they get in here?
Well, yeah, and that's what I thought at first too because they uh for a lot of you know What they believe would appear on the surface to at least be uh, you know uniform with evangelical christianity.
Uh, but basically he was telling me as far as the mixing of the covenants You're probably familiar that they do where basically you have to keep all the commandments to keep the sabbath holy. And they try to present you with evidence to that of that down through history.
Uh, you know with the first churches and such so they try to claim the the albagensians and baldensians as well.
Well, not necessarily them. I mean, obviously, you know about the non-trinitarian anabaptist sect and things like that. Um, But basically he wasn't necessarily concentrating on what he can prove for his faith for the or for seventh day adventism.
Somebody was trying to disprove what evangelical christianity can you know claims as far as church history goes? Um, you know by saying that there was no evangelical christians. There were not people who believe you were saved by grace alone through faith apart from works.
Um, and if there were they were very spotty and I was shocked and I read like I said all those creeds and I realized Wow, these guys believe almost identically to what we believe.
Yeah, well the problem is uh in all those situations you're you're dealing with uh, fragmentary information. Almost everything that we know Uh is is mediated through other sources. You can uh, if you if you want find What sound like extremely orthodox statements you can if you want Find what seem to be extremely unorthodox statements um when when people are not given an entire lifetime to live and they're constantly in persecution and.
And what we know about them has come to us through those who persecuted them even when those people thought they were doing them a favor uh by uh seeking to bring them back to the true church on so forth.
I I don't doubt for a moment that you can find uh sound Orthodox evangelicals using that term as we would use it today. Uh in these groups, uh hiding in those mountains. There's there there had to have been a reason Why the inquisition was so interested in those places and uh was so interested in pursuing with such vigor and uh and force.
Uh, the churches of the piedmont valley and there are a number of books on those subjects. You have to be careful. There we don't. Sometimes uh some uh trail of blood baptist type folks, uh try to Uh, basically create a mirror apostolic claim to what rome does uh as if you have to be able to trace this specific line of individuals by name and.
It goes through this bishop and then it goes over here and then you've got this over there um. History is just not going to provide us with that kind of thing Uh in in light of the fragmentary nature of what history can provide to us.
What we have is a scriptural promise that christ would build his church and he has continued to do so um and he does so in such a way that there are always those who Who cling to biblical truth and continue to preach a biblical gospel?
We do we cannot expect to read back into previous ages of history all of our concerns and all of our uh issues, uh, in regards to rome and things like that because. Even the the development and evolution of roman catholicism over the centuries.
Involves different aspects of roman catholic belief taking preeminence at certain times and so uh, we we've got to be we've. If we have to point out how often the roman catholics engage in anachronism and reading things back into history Uh, then we have to be careful not to do the same thing ourselves and demand that people of the past necessarily Answer all the questions the same way we do.
Uh, so i'm i'm I I do think that there is uh value In looking at those groups and in seeing that there were true believers there, but I wouldn't limit it to just them um in any way and I would be hesitant to uh create the kind of.
Apostolic claims that well see here's where the here's where the the line continues. Blah blah blah blah blah. Uh instead I think we need to be thankful for for all of the faithful down through the ages and I don't think that it's really up to us to necessarily have.
Have the ability to say ah, this guy was in that guy was out. This guy was in that guy that guy was out. If I can't read hearts today uh, it's it's even harder to read hearts by Historical documents that may or may not actually accurately reflect what the person believed said or anything else so.
With all of that said and hopefully providing some level of balance uh, then we have to be careful how we approach those things, but uh. The problem is those groups likewise because we we have so little firsthand knowledge of them can be claimed by anybody and so any group that comes along and wants to.
Say, ah, we've been we've been here all along, you know. It's sort of like when jehovah's witnesses go back and try to claim the arians. Even the arians recognized the holy spirit was a person so. Uh, and they certainly had no idea about 1914 or 144 000 or all the rest of this kind of stuff but when people start running around trying to find stuff in history to uh, uh glom on to.
It's easier to glom on to groups where there's not a whole lot of information. So you can sort of make up your own stories to go along rather than groups. We know a lot about so. Yeah, they get they get claimed by a lot of folks.
And it's tough too because I told them i'll finish up quick. I'm going to get a lot of calls but basically I mean the testimony that I Uh, you know that god has given me I I believe in terms of talking to seventh-day Adventist and church of christ adherence all these people.
Is that basically the three things that I look for. And a lot of your teachings have also helped clarify a lot with me. Um, you know as far as this goes, but I always watch out for three things. And and i mean if you're a caller and you and you talk to these people.
You know, uh on a regular basis or you run into them, you don't quite know what to say I always look for the dual authority else or some prophet lmg white or you know, the roman magisterium. Uh, it's the one true church syndrome where only their church and you know them alone like you were just talking about.
Uh, or or you you know seem to be getting at um, and basically the work salvation. You're always going to find all three of those in some way shape or form. Uh, you know, at least all three of them or one of them rather right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, and uh, I think those are three things to look at very closely and uh, they are the marks of human religion and and the only reason you'd want to add an authority to scripture is because you want to try to Change its teaching concerning the sovereignty of grace and uh, that's that's what you see happening.
So yeah interesting stuff. Uh, There's there's a lot of books i'd like to read on that. Uh that I have I just haven't gotten to them yet. It's just not enough hours in the day. So I I do enjoy listening to others who have a little bit more time to delve into those things trying to learn from them as well.
Yeah, appreciate it. All right. Thanks. Aaron. All right.
Bye-bye.
Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with dustin.
No.
Yeah, dustin. Hi dustin.
Hi, dr. White. How are you? I'm doing well, sir. Hope you are. Yes, sir. A couple of questions. I wanted to ask you about evangelizing muslims. Um, I do a an outreach ministry each week where I go to one of the college campuses.
And I just walk up to people introduce myself and start talking to them. And anytime I see somebody with a kufi on or a hijab, I make a beeline to them and um. One of the things i've consistently found with nearly well, actually every muslim i've tried to talk to about the gospel Is a lot of times two problems.
They don't even know what their own religion teaches and then secondly. They certainly don't know what christian theology teaches. Um, i've got to evangelize three guys today on a community college campus very very nice young men.
But they're getting their christian theology from videos of zachary nyke on youtube. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's where they're learning it and um, most of them don't even know what their own quran teaches about.
You know, like the trinity was uh god mary and jesus. And I actually had to pull my quran out today and show a guy From the quran that's what the quran teaches. Uh, he didn't even know what what what his quran taught.
So i've got people that are wearing the muslim garb and they really don't even know what their own religion Teaches and they can quote the verses from the quran in arabic and they don't even understand them.
They'd be like me learning Koine greek learning the alphabet being able to read titus 2 13 in greek, but not knowing what it means, right?
Any any kind of help maybe you could offer in trying to talk to these folks because they seem so brainwashed.
Into.
Number one the idea that I can't I can't actually show them anything from their own quran. Therefore they're not going to listen to anything I say. And then secondly What do we do with with these types of misrepresentations?
I mean, I I take the time to actually open up my bible and try to explain to these folks. You know, this is not what christians actually believe. We believe we're fiercely monotheistic one god. I show them from scripture we talk about that and um.
But they're so it's like they're so programmed into this straw men Uh strawman version of doctrine of what we believe. It's very difficult to have a pretty productive conversation sometimes.
So yeah, uh, and and if you're talking about folks that that don't necessarily have a whole lot of interest in uh, you know. They're not really pursuing their own faith a whole lot. It's it is difficult to uh, uh create a desire for them to not only more accurately know their own faith, but but yours as well, but yeah, people like zachary nike will will be held responsible for the constant misrepresentations and the fact that this man has been challenged many times to uh to debate debate myself and will not.
Um and Given the the gross level of not not really ignorance but simple deception on his part then then he will he will have much to answer for before a holy god, but.
Trying to get their interest. Well, the generally the way that I would do that. Um is to uh, if you're talking to a non-practicing muslim who says however, he believes the quran to be the word of god say well, you know, uh, I uh have accepted what the quran says at surah 5 44 and following where you have a protracted argument for the Prophet of muhammad and it starts with the torah being given to moses and then the gospel being given to jesus.
In both there is light and guidance. And in fact the allah al-anjeel the people of the gospel are told to judge about what is contained in the gospel. And that's what i've done. And would you like to see what the result of that is?
And you're you're not you're not appealing to the quran as if it's actually the word of god you're simply saying well I have been told Uh, i'm the allah al-anjeel. I'm i'm people of the gospel and your book tells me to do this and when I do this.
Here's the result um I find your book talking about god having a uh, a consort, uh, or a wife. Uh, and that this is above him and it says do not say three. There is only one god. Well, you know when I say to you do not say three do not say three.
There is only one team. How would you understand that? Well? I'm, not supposed to say there are three teams or three whatever but the point is the quran thinks that. What christians are saying is that we're saying there are three gods and that there's only one god um and you know the same question i'm gonna be asking basam zawadi on the 12th and that is if this is supposed to be the word of god, then Shouldn't it be accurate in what it says?
Should it doesn't god know what the doctrine of the trinity was didn't he know in 632? I mean if the quran is eternal. Uh, then obviously god is eternally known what the doctrine the trinity was going to be anyway, unless he does not know the future.
Uh, which would make it sort of impossible for the quran to talk about something that he doesn't know about in the future but anyway, uh, you know, those are the ways that I would try to uh, you know, and then you know.
If you're really talking to a non-practicing muslim that just sort of knows some. Knows some quran but really doesn't isn't doing the prayers and things like that and i'd ask, you know. Uh, what time was fajr prayer this morning?
And if he looks at you with a sheepish look, you know. You're looking at somebody who isn't taking their religion overly seriously in the first place and at that point you can just you know, bring god's law to bear and uh, you know in a simple type of gospel presentation.
And uh and see see if there's some spiritual, uh conviction going on there and then deal with the misrepresentations as they come along but uh, yeah there's there's there isn't any way around dealing with the fact that we live in a day where there's a tremendous amount of Misrepresentation of the christian faith on the part of people like zachar naik and eucifestus and people like that.
Um, we seek to challenge them. Uh, we seek to demonstrate that they are misrepresenting our faith, but uh, you know, you can't you can't force them to Engage you you uh, you simply can demonstrate where they're wrong.
Right. Yeah, you know, I and i've tried different approaches and talking to them. And it seems like and I try to be really gentle and and and listen patiently and take the time. But it seems like it always comes down to to to two things the authority of the quran versus the authority of the new testament.
And because they've been again So influenced by guys like zachar naik through youtube videos, you know, i've encouraged him. I said, you know, i'll ask him a question say hey, have you ever read the new testament?
And i've never had a muslim ever say yes, i've read the new testament. I haven't either. I've never met a new uh, because and then their response is well, why should I read if it's corrupted? And then my response to them is well.
Uh, the quran says that the words of god cannot be changed or corrupted surah 6 34 so on Quran says the bible's the word of god therefore on the quran's authority. Assuming your position for the sake of argument the bible couldn't have been changed or corrupted as muslims claim.
And then they say well the quran's perfect the bible's got these and they don't say textual variants. But that's basically what they're getting at. And so what I did, I don't know if you remember, um back in 2008.
You put the some palimpsest, uh manuscripts of the quran on the dividing line. Well, I took I took that put that on my iphone and every time I had this conversation. When they say the quran has never been corrupted, basically, it's been absolutely textually.
It's got a pure textual transmission. Throughout history. I just pull that open and I look at it and I find out every single time. They will not look at it. They refuse to look at the evidence.
Well, I present that evidence in the debate in new york and the 800 muslims that were there didn't have any choice. But to look at that evidence but but you're right and and Uh the best you can do in that situation is to say well, wait a minute.
So you'll accept without checking? The accusations that the new testament have been corrupted by people like zacher nyke who aren't even scholars in the field. And I show you evidence that there is there are textual issues with the quran and you won't even consider it.
That's not a person who loves alhaq. That's not a person who loves the truth that that is a person who loves a tradition. And if you really do believe that one of the 99 names of allah is a haq. Uh, then you're not you're not living in in consistency with that claim.
Yeah, that's that's kind of the the the tact i've tried to take at that point when they kind of shut down in that area. My point is to say well, I thought you were opening the listening. You said because typically i'll try to ask them.
Do you believe god could communicate things to us in such a way that we could know them for certain? Because they have no assurance of their salvation. And then i'll tell them, you know. Once we get to this point about the textual reliability and their unwillingness to look at this palimpsest manuscript of these textual variants I'll say but you told me earlier that you did believe that god could reveal things to us in such a way that we could Know them for certain if that's the case if you believe in the necessity of seeking after truth.
Why is it you're not willing to look at these if this is the truth and you have nothing to fear my friend and at that point they they start, you know shucking and jiving and I. At that point my only thing at that point if they're still willing to talk to me is just to lovingly bring As you said the law of god to bear on this person's heart, right?
That's honestly. Honestly, dustin you're doing it. Right as far as I can tell and uh pray the lord will bless that I got two more folks guys sneak in before the end Of the program, but uh, god bless you and your work out there and i'm supposed to be heading Toward north carolina, I think in september for an islam debate.
So keep an eye on the blog.
Bless you brother. Thank you for your time. Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye.
All right, let's uh talk with bill. We're gonna try to get both bill and robin. So let's uh, let's talk with bill. Hi bill.
Hi, uh james, uh, dan wallace a student here again. How are you doing good? I'm gonna i'm gonna make it quick and my question actually is added on to what about.
Muslims believe um.
Generally, yes, I mean that the there are a small number of muslims that are aware of the fact that uh, Historically islamic scholars have said that the quran was was revealed in seven arouf. Now what's an arouf.
Good question? Uh, it's different ways of citing the same thing.
Do all seven arouf still exist today. Does the ethmonic revision is found in the 1924 egyptian printing the quran? Represents all seven arouf or is it only one arouf. Have any that arouf disappeared? Those are all areas of of disagreement amongst muslim scholars.
But 99 of the muslims are going to be talking to have no earthly idea what even I was just talking about. And so they do believe that the 1924 egyptian printing of the of the quran which they have in their hands is.
Exactly. What uh with mon produced. Okay. Is there a popular or to recommend that I uh pursue on that because i'm kind of look, you know, I work with Right and so i'm trying to kind of do kind of what you're talking about with the last gentleman with the palimpsest or something.
Right, uh, you have a you have a there are there are a bunch of things. There are a lot of things. The vasodroids are exceptionally expensive. Um, the ministry just purchased a book for me that i'm going to be reading lord willing on the flight to philadelphia uh on texts in the early commentaries of the quran that discuss corruption and Almost everything like that's published by brill.
That book was 159 including shipping. Um, so almost anything that you're going to get and I could refer you. I i've got a shiite compilation of variants in the quran. Uh, that was a brill publication.
It was 269.
In in cost that's why again I when I when I thank the lord's people for having helped us do these studies in islam there's a real practical level to that because Uh, a lot of times i've put these books up on the ministry resource list and I didn't have time to do that this time uh, because I needed to get it before heading to the uk, but um, They're they ain't cheap and uh, a lot of this material you'll find scattered abroad through Various resources and various works.
Uh, it one of the things I was going to be pursuing. Uh when I had a scholarship, uh, that was what I wanted to do. My my phdn was in in chronic textual criticism. Unfortunately that scholarship organization, uh, experienced the same difficulties many people did during the economic turndown and uh, But be that as it may I did collect a lot of that information in the process and so It's there.
It's not it's not easy to get hold of Uh, there is a book that is not yet released. Uh, but it is in the publication process that someone has already thankfully purchased for me in in pre-pub uh on amazon by keith small Uh, that would be probably the first place to start because his dissertation was in that specific subject Of the textual criticism of the quran and so the bibliographical information and stuff like that would be Where you'd want to start if you look up keith small, I forget the title of the book I'd have to look it up real quick and i'm rushing here at the end.
But if uh, you look that up, that'd be a good place to start. All right. Well, thank you much. All right. Thanks bill. All right. Real quickly here. Let's talk with rob. Hi rob. Hi, dr. White. Yes, sir.
How are you doing? Good real quick. It's a little bit off topic. I had. I'm a five-point palpitist. Um. Reformed matthew. Chapter 18. Starting in verse 22 jesus tells a parable put him 10 000 talents and he was forgiven his debt But then he went off and found someone who owed him a small amount and wouldn't forgive him So how does that square with limit his element or or is this parable not to be understood in the?
Having to do with salvation.
Maybe you could explain to me how you're seeing a connection in the first place. The the parable is about the attitude of forgiveness the fact that Those who are forgiven by god, uh are forgiven of of great things and therefore if we do not Have an attitude of forgiveness toward others then we don't recognize The greatness of what we ourselves have been Forgiven, what does that have to do with the atonement?
I'm i'm confused.
Sorry. The man who was uh, who owed 10 000 talents? He was initially forgiven but then because he because he neglected to forgive others had right.
But the point being that the man didn't understand and did not appreciate the The forgiveness that has been had been his that was demonstrated in his behavior towards someone else. I still don't see the point of the atonement.
I mean unless you're taking a parable and saying Oh, this is a real person who really existed and had really been atoned for and then got unatoned for is is that where you're going? Correct. So yeah, that's just that's just that's just abusing parables.
There's one there's one point of the parable. The parable is that the person who has been forgiven much will realize they've been forgiven much and that therefore, uh, to recognize. What the parable is saying is that those who have been forgiven? Uh will be forgiving toward others because they recognize how much they have been forgiven.
It's it has nothing to do with a historical person or limited atonement or general atonement any atonement at all. The whole point is If you've been forgiven then you will live as a person who has been forgiven which means you will be one who will be forgiving to others.
Okay, okay.
All right. Thanks. Okay. Thanks a lot. God bless. All right. That's that's it for a while. Sorry, uh. Uh, I I wish I could tell you when we're gonna be back, uh back on. I know we'll be back on in february lord willing.
Uh, I would say the 15th Uh by at the very very least, uh, but i'm gonna try to find a way maybe when i'm in glasgow. It's just it's just really hard to say right now when we're going to be able to schedule something but uh.
We will do the best we can. And don't forget the uh, the work of the ministry goes on even while the dividing line doesn't so. Uh, keep us in your prayers and support us while we are doing this work over in the uk.
We'll see we get back. God bless.
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