Did Jesus really teach the Trinity?

Biblically Speaking

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All right. Now we're live. Well, welcome back, Peter. Thank you so much for coming back. How are you? Doing well.

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Thanks for having me. I'm so glad you're here. For those of you that may have not listened to our second episode, Pastor Peter Moord is a pastor at New Life Church in California that I met on a plane when

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I was deliberating if I should even start this podcast. And I was really, really concerned, really scared.

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And then of course, when I get on the Southwest flight to go back home, I sit next to a pastor watching videos about baptism.

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And you don't know this actually, but I was like, this is such a sign from God for us to talk.

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And we kind of talked, but I could tell you were busy. And I felt the Holy Spirit nudging me to be like, no, engage.

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And I was like, no, if I'm supposed to talk to this pastor, he's got to come to me. And sure enough,

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I got off the plane, put my headphones in, and you chased me down and was like, hey, here's my card for my church.

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We should talk. And I was like, okay, we got to talk. That's awesome. Well, what you don't know is the

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Holy Spirit was like, dude, you sat on a plane for four hours and didn't have a conversation, which

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I always have a conversation, but I was just so focused on what I was studying. And sometimes we can be so into our own little bubble that we miss what

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God wants to do around us. So no, that was awesome. I'm thankful that God crossed our paths. Me too.

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And I remember even in the prep calls for this podcast, you were like, you got to do it. You clearly have this on your heart cast.

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God asked you specifically to do that, which definitely put the pressure on, but I'm glad you did that. That was like,

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I needed somebody to do that for me. So thank you. Absolutely. No, I'm glad and I've been praying for it.

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Thank you. The topic today is something that I am coming humbly into this podcast with, with zero information.

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I'm just going to lay that out. And we were kind of just talking about this, but as a Christian who's been pretty lukewarm her whole life, the idea of the

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Trinity never was something that I thought I needed to question or even reconsider.

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And I'm not saying that we're reconsidering the Trinity in this episode, but more so to think that it wasn't,

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I don't know, I just kind of skipped over the idea that it had to be developed and it needed to be kind of set out loud that there is a

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Trinity. I guess I just thought when Jesus kind of was on earth, he just, that kind of came with him, that there's God, there's

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Jesus, and then there's the Holy Spirit. But that's not the case. If we look at historical events, it had to be kind of in a creed, you know, that it needed to be developed.

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But before we get into the history of it, what is the, you know, if I'm five years old, how would you explain the

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Trinity to me? Yeah. So it's the fact that God is one God. And he says that over and over again, that he's one

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God, but that he coexists in three unique and distinct persons.

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So not in three essence of the same person, but in three distinct persons. And I know that's hard for us to wrap our mind around.

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And we are in this dimension. So it's all that we know. It's all that we can think about.

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And whenever I explain the Trinity to people, I always use a piece of paper. Do you mind if I use like an object lesson?

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Okay. Go for it. So if I were to try to explain this to someone who had never seen a pencil before,

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I think if I could use a piece of paper as well, if I were to take this same pencil, this mechanical pencil and put it through a piece of paper,

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I think it'd be easy for you to understand that the bottom that's coming through is only a part of the pencil.

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Okay. So Jesus came down to earth. We only saw a part of who God is. And so if you think of the spirit being the part kind of in the middle that is interacting with our beings, we can't see him, right?

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But it's like in between the two folds of the paper. Yeah. Yeah. We know he exists. Right. And so this is so silly and I've never seen anyone do this.

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It just helps me. And if I was explaining to a kid, this is how I would explain it, right? So it's, you know,

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Jesus, the spirit in God, the father, and as much as we want to read about God, the father, we will really truly have a hard time putting that into focus.

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But Jesus came down to earth to allow us to see in really all of his manifestation who

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God was in the form of a man. And so God with us, that's

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Emmanuel, right? So you know, it is difficult for us to think about, you know, a multi -dimensional

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God from this dimension. But I just am thankful that we have a

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God that's so much greater than our understanding. I think there is great peace in that. And just like anything that is immaterial in our world, regardless of if it's religious or not, it all takes faith.

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I mean, we know more about the universe, Cass, than we do about our own dreams.

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So the headspace while we sleep is something that's very, I mean, it's been studied and, you know, my background, psychology and counseling and, you know, taking some of the biology classes when

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I was doing my master's, it just, it was, you know, no pun intended, mind -blowing to think that there's so many parts of the mind that we haven't even explored.

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Like we don't even know why that happens. And, you know, up until recently, we didn't realize even that gray matter would grow, you know, beyond the thirties and expand and all of the things that happen in the mind.

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We are fearfully and wonderfully made, David says in Psalms. So what I'm saying is anything immaterial, anything that we can't, you know, touch, feel, you know, and see right off the bat is a matter of faith.

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I mean, creation itself is a matter of faith. No one was there regardless of how we believe everything came about.

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And so when it comes to this, it is a matter of faith. But I think that God has revealed so many things to us about the

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Trinity that it's important. It's important to uncover. Absolutely. No, I think that is really interesting for the people that are like trying to pinpoint faith on just religion, but it's like, we have a lot of faith that there's not a monster at the bottom of the ocean, but we haven't seen that yet.

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You know, like, I think that there is a lot of secular areas within our life that we have faith in.

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We just don't recognize it. Right. Yeah. That's actually a really good point. And faith itself has, you know, the

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Bible says in Hebrews 11, 1, it says, without faith or in Hebrews 11, 6, without faith, it is impossible to please

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God. So the way that we interact with God is faith. But then in the first verse of Hebrews 11, 1, it says that faith is a substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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So it is our faith that allows us to go into these areas like the Trinity and say, okay, the

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Bible says it. It's revealed in nature. This is who

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God is based on the revealed truth and based on everything we've seen and based on the eyewitnesses who walked and talked with Jesus.

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This is who God is. And so one day we will see him. One day we will be face to face with him.

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The Bible says that. But until then, we have eyes of faith and one day our faith will be made sight.

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Absolutely. Okay. So the Trinity, let's get into some history lesson here because I love a history lesson.

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How did it form? Like, what was it? Could you, I mean, I want to like push your limits of what you know and don't know. So if you don't know, it's fine, but Jesus is alive,

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Jesus dies, and then people are figuring out New Testament because obviously the Old Testament's already developed and now they're developing the

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Gospels and everything for the New Testament. And Constantine is in power, total

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Christian society, you know, that's so different from what the Romans were before, but now they're kind of planning out what

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Jesus's Christianity and what this religion should look like. And that included a conversation about there's a

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God above, a man was just on earth who claimed to be God and then rose from the dead.

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And then, so I guess, how did the Holy Spirit come into play as the third? Yeah, so if I could go back to the transition between when

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Jesus, Acts chapter one, you can read this, when he ascended into heaven, that was the transition.

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I mean, Jesus had said on earth, I mean, several times, hey, when I leave, it's actually going to be good for you.

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This is John 14, John 16, it's going to be good for you because I'm going to leave a parakletos,

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I'm going to leave a comforter, I'm going to leave the spirit, and he's not going to be bound by one physical person like Jesus was.

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Jesus was the Godhead bodily, like he was one human being, right?

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All man, all God. So he was bound by that. And so the spirit would be everywhere all at once, just like God is, omnipresent.

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And so his point was, hey, when I leave, the spirit will come to you. And in that transition period, you read in the book of Acts, all of the things that were happening, the people who had the

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Holy Spirit in them, they had clothing tongues of fire, like these little fire halos, or whatever you want to call them, over their head.

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These massive miracles were happening. People were speaking in Greek and people who only spoke

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Hebrew understood it. People were speaking Aramaic and people who only spoke some of the

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African dialects, Egyptian, they understood it. I mean, it was amazing what the

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Holy Spirit was doing. People were being raised from the dead and lives were being changed. It was just this incredible thing where signs and wonders were being done.

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And God was showing, hey, I'm still here. Like Jesus left, but his spirit is still here.

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And the church was really, like you said, trying to accept the fact, okay,

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God is still with us. He has not forsaken us just because his physical presence is not here.

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He is absolutely still working and he's still here. And so that's where the

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Trinity started in a very real practical sense. But it immediately started, the idea of the

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Trinity started right when the first words of Scripture were being penned by the

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Holy Spirit. We know that holy men were moved as the Holy Spirit led them. And so the

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Holy Spirit is the author, obviously, but Moses penned down, let us in Genesis 1 -26, let us make man in our image.

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It's plural. And the Holy Spirit's mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis. I believe that Jesus is referenced in the first chapter of Genesis.

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We know this because in John 1 -1, he's talking about how Jesus created all things, all things were made by him.

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So I know I'm throwing a lot out there, but my point is just to kind of paint a broad picture and then we can get more specific.

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The Trinity didn't begin to happen when Jesus showed up. It had always been before Adam and Eve were formed by God himself, the

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Trinity already had unity, already had a relationship. And this is so important because C .S.

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Lewis says this, that if the Trinity did not exist, God could not be love because love is given and received.

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So because God is love, there had to be a relationship. We stepped into the relationship that God had with himself.

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When Adam and Eve were walking with him in the cool of the day and having a relationship with him and loving him, that love wasn't just created out of nothing.

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God was already love. And so because we are made in his likeness and his image, we are stepping into his love.

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We love him because he first loved us, 1 John says. So we're stepping into this and there's, again, a lot of theological truths that I'm just trying to simplify and just kind of give the overview.

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But the Trinity didn't just happen to be when Jesus said it was, it was always existing, which is hard for us to wrap our minds around as well, but it was always existing.

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And there's a thread of the Trinity all throughout the Old Testament. And then when the

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New Testament comes, you realize, oh, okay, you have a greater high definition view, if you will, of who

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God is in three persons, but being one God. Okay.

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Wow. You, the way you said we stepped into the love, but he made us in his image. I don't know, for me, that was a really good visual in my head, but I think, yeah, no,

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I think I'm being way too logistical about it that after Jesus, in Acts, there's the

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Pentecost that you were referring to, that kind of the Holy Spirit, everyone was speaking, but everyone could hear each other despite their different dialects.

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And it's like, oh, the Holy Spirit has entered the chat, but you're, you know, that's not right. Like the

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Holy Spirit was there all along. And so you're saying like, by the time they got down to the

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New Testament, they're kind of recognizing the role, documenting it and acknowledging it. Whereas before, that's interesting, because you're thinking like, if I'm putting myself into the shoes of, let's say, one of the disciples, and Jesus is the person in front of me, and he's referencing the

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God that we're worshiping, the Jewish God that everyone kind of was already familiar with. But now there's God right in front of me. And I want to call it magic, because that's like what my

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Western American 21st century mind wants to call it. He's like, okay, and now he's like, moving his hands and people are getting up from the dead.

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So what is that? That is the Holy Spirit kind of working through him, that after he leaves, it remains.

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And I think once, and then so it sounds like once Jesus has gone, they're like, oh, that's still here.

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Right. It didn't leave with him. I want to reference one of the gospels, because now let's pretend that I'm John.

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So we're going to read from John 17, one through five for the NIV version. So if I'm John, and I have the living

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God right in front of me, this is what it says. It says, after Jesus said this, which we can read ahead, he looked toward heaven and prayed,

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Father, the hour has come, glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, for you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to, all those who you have given him.

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Now this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

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And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

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I feel like that's a pretty heavy statement for John to witness. I mean, it is, it makes

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Jesus, I mean, this might be kind of wrong to say, but it makes Jesus seem like an alien that was like, outworldly experienced something that our human mind on earth couldn't even comprehend.

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We would never say something like that. Like God, remember the pact that you and I talked about before I got to earth?

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Like what? That is a wild sentence for John to witness and for us to comprehend.

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But like Jesus knew, and this is beyond the Holy Spirit now, this is Jesus identifying himself as God as well.

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But still, I mean, what are your thoughts on that verse? Yeah, it's super powerful. And you know, the thing

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I love about John is John had the benefit of a lot of perspective, a lot of a whole lifetime, you know,

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I think it was like 90 AD when he's penning this, you know, of course, under the inspiration of Holy Spirit, but, but recognizing the importance of this.

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And, you know, when you have the first thing penned around 32 AD, which is right after Jesus was,

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I mean, crucified. I mean, so we have things, you know, like the, the, the, you know, resurrection creed in 1

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Corinthians 15, that is penned when all this is happening. Like it was, they didn't wait, right?

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But there's benefit in having John who, who walked and talked with Jesus, who saw the first century church explode, who saw them persecuted, who saw

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Nero, you know, killing hundreds of thousands of Christians and Jews. And, and he saw all of this and he saw that it didn't end

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Christianity. It actually thrust Christianity into greater, you know, roles in places that it would have never gone.

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And all of this is, is, you know, culminating. And when you get to John 17, where Jesus is praying, it's one of the most powerful prayers.

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It probably is the most powerful prayer in scripture. But one of the things that's interesting about this is Jesus is giving us a window into his relationship with God.

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And at the same time showing us how he is God. Because of what, because of his all know, you know, his knowledge, because of, because of what's about to happen, we need to understand, and John's helping us through the inspiration of the

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Holy Spirit to understand that this isn't a man that's dying for your sins. This is an infinite death.

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So if, if a perfect man died, okay, then that's just one man dying.

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But if a man who's God dies, then his payment is infinite, meaning there is no limit to the number of people that he can pay for.

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And so it is so majestic and, and the depth of it.

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I don't believe that we will, we, I think for all of eternity, we will be trying to find the, the bottom of this, this canyon of his love and the depths of who he is and his grace and all of that.

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And I don't think there is a bottom. I think that it's just, it really is beyond our comprehension.

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And so that's where, that's where when you start pulling on that thread of the Trinity, you start, you start realizing how great

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God is and it really does put everything in perspective. It is, it is what

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I believe is the greatest doctrine in scripture because it is who God is.

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And when someone comes to scripture looking for who they are, they're reading into it, they're looking for themselves.

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And Proverbs says, you know, a fool cares nothing about anyone other than himself, right?

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But when we look to God, the great thing is we, we, now we know who we are, right?

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And so the Trinity is helping us understand who God is, helping us understand who Jesus was and is, and now how the spirit interacts with us and the work of the spirit and the person of the spirit and how the spirit feels and, and interacts with Christians today like you and me.

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Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm going to push a little bit because I want you to sell me on why that this is one of the greatest parts of the

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Bible, because I am kind of zoning back into my logistical, what happened next mentality of why was this the best scripture ever?

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Because to me it seems like a no brainer, you know, it seems like a no brainer. If you, you know, believed in God, experienced

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Jesus, saw that the Holy Spirit was still here, what was the point of the council of Nicaea where they had to state directly that there is a

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Trinity? Wouldn't it have just been kind of like group thought we all just believed it anyways? Like, why was there even a debate?

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Yeah. So, um, if you read the book of Galatians, you're going to see, you're going to see this already starting.

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I mean, you know, and again, we can go into the council of Nicaea, but that was so much later. That's 325

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AD when, when you, when you get into Galatians, you know, 50 AD you're, you're, you're realizing, oh, you know, the, the council, you know, the

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Jerusalem council, which decided that, you know, Greeks could be, you know, exempted from all of the

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Jewish dietary laws and they could be accepted in the church and all of that. You're realizing, oh, so people were bringing their

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Greco Roman context into Christianity and people were bringing their Judeo Christian context, their, their

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Judaism, you know, they were called Judaizers in Galatians, that those Judaizers were bringing all of their rules and all of their religiosity into Christianity.

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And so it's normal for people like Arian who really popularized, he was, he was the, the, the

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Bishop of Alexander who popularized the fact that no, we have one God. Well, he was taking that from Judaism.

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The fact that there, there aren't multiple gods, there's only one God. And I've had Jewish rabbis call me a polytheist because I believe in the

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Trinity and just because I'm Trinitarian, they say, well, no, you believe in three gods. And I said, no, it's one.

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And they're like, no, well, it's three because you, you know, you, you can't call it one, you know, the Lord, our God is one Lord.

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And they, and they quote Deuteronomy, you know, six, four, which is the Shema they quoted every day. So they know that they say that the

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Lord, our God is one, one God. And I just believe that God can be one and can be three at one time, you know?

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So again, that same pushback, the same conversations that I'm having with Jewish rabbis in LA and, and, and great friends of mine who, who are, you know, who don't believe that Jesus, you know, was the

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Messiah, the promised one or, or the son of God, you know, that those conversations are still being had.

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So, so that there were certainly people who didn't believe it. But when you, if you're just talking about the church, you're talking about the people who walked and talked with Jesus, we're talking about the church that Jesus died for.

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You know, as Acts 20, 28 says, he purchased with his own blood.

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Like this was his church. He was the founder. Right? Well, when, when we're talking about that, those people did believe the

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Trinity. Those people were dying saying that Jesus was

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God. So, so again, you know, it really, to, to someone like me,

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I don't, I don't go to the council of Nicaea. I go to, I go to,

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I go to Paul who was a historical figure and, and I go to, you know, the writer of Hebrews, which may have been

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Paul. I go to, you know, the, the early historians, you know, like Tertullian and,

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Tertullian, and I go to, I go to these historians that are a hundred, 200 years before the council of Nicaea to know that there's so much evidence that even before Constantine made it popular and legal to talk about it and, and to be a

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Christian. Okay. It was happening. It was happening all over. And there were thousands of people who were, who were developing these, these doctrines.

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And so I think it's just important to note that and, and know that there's a lot of historical evidence out there.

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And some people can say, well, I don't, I don't believe that, you know, but, but again, that's for, that's up for debate. You do want to look at that evidence though.

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A hundred percent. Okay. So let me, cause history and chronology really matters to me and just understanding the process.

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So if we're looking at Hebrews and I want to look at Hebrews one, one through eight, which you've already sent to me that I would love to read, where does that land in time compared to Jesus lived

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Hebrews was written and then the council of Nicaea, like where did the Hebrews writing, where did that land in history?

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Yeah. So that letter, and again, people debate who wrote it. I believe Paul wrote it, but regardless, it's an actual letter with, you know, hundreds of manuscripts to back up the fact that it was, you know meant for the church inspired by the

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Holy spirit. There's so many ways that that met the, the, you know, Canon, which was the rule, you know, the rule for whether or not scripture was, was, you know, recognized, but it was, it was a letter written to the

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Hebrews who were at Rome. Okay. So all of their, about 50 ,000 Hebrews, Hebrew people who were in Rome who were

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Christians. So they, they spoke Hebrew. They were of, they were of Jewish descent, but they they literally were, were being persecuted for their faith because they believed that this guy was their

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Messiah, that he was the son of God. And so I'm, I'm really, you know,

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I'm, I'm really appreciative that God gave us multiple angles in this. It wasn't just like one angle.

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This is the only, you know, this is the only text. No, there are many different angles. So by the time we get to chapter eight in this letter to these, to these, you know,

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Hebrews, I think it's important for us to understand that, that they are, he's building a case of who

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Jesus was for all the people who they have just reached. All the people that they have said, Hey, listen, come, come worship our, our creator, come, come know who we've met and, and who we believe that Jesus is.

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And, and even if they haven't met, met him physically, obviously they had received him. They, they believed that he was their savior, their, their, the one that, that was going to forgive them of their sins.

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And you read through that there, they were looking to him as their high priest, chapter 10. So by the time you get to chapter eight, it's talking about how

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God views Jesus and, and when you read verse one through eight, you're really getting a picture of,

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Oh, here's, here's how God views the angels. And here's how God views Jesus. And then there's a specific quotation that, that the writer of Hebrews says that God says about Jesus and, and it's specifically thy throne.

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Oh God is in heaven and he's talking about Jesus. It's God to Jesus saying that, that he was

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God. And that's one of those scriptures that you really, it's hard to twist that any other way.

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I mean, it's God talking to Jesus, calling him God. So I think that's, that's pretty strong.

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Thank you. Okay. We can read it, but so you're saying that this was written right after Jesus? Yes. Yeah.

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I mean the, the, again, the dating has a range, right. But because it doesn't have the, you know, the manuscripts don't have like a date stamped on them, but because we know the time that we know the audience and we know the things that he's mentioning in the book and all of that, it, you know, it's probably around 65, 60 to 65.

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Way before the council of Nicaea. So they already had these texts when they were deliberating. Yes.

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Okay. Let's go ahead and read it because I'll read Hebrews one, one through eight, the NIV version.

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So God's final word. So this is God talking to Jesus. Okay. In the past,

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God spoke to our ancestors through the prophet at many times and in various ways. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by his son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom he also made the universe.

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I mean, it pretty much says it right there. The sun is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being sustaining all things by his powerful word.

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After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty in heaven.

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So he became as much superior to the angels as the name, as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

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Oh, so there. So he has become as much. Greater than the angels. Okay. Thank you for that. Okay. So verse five, for which of the angels did

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God ever say, you are my son, today I have become your father, or again, I will be his father and he will be my son.

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And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, let all the angels worship him. And speaking of the angels, he says, he makes his angels spirits and his servants flames of fire.

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But about the son, he says, your throne, oh God, will last forever and ever.

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A scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. So he's saying God calls Jesus, God, your throne, oh

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God. Right? Yeah. And it's one of the greatest texts to know what

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God's thinking about him. And I love the little nod to Jesus's baptism, because when

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Jesus was baptized and we have that recorded in the new Testament, you know, he comes up out of the water and the spirit is descending like a dove.

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It didn't say he was a dove, but the spirit was descending like the dove. So now you have the spirit there, the heavens open, and God says, this is my beloved son in whom

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I am well pleased. Right? So, so now God's recognizing that it's a son and, and now the spirit's there, but now you have later on God recognizing that he's not just his son, but he's also

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God, which is a hard thing for us again, in our dimension to wrap our mind around, but it's important.

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I think it's important for us to, to embrace that tension, to say, we're not just dealing with a mere man.

29:01

We're not doing dealing with something that intellectually we can wrap our, our minds around. Like this is something that we, we should struggle with.

29:09

And in the struggle, there is, there is a calming, a peace to know that, that this

29:15

God is great and not just great enough to overcome our challenges and not just great enough to, you know, hold the world together.

29:23

I think that that's kind of a surface level that he's great enough to redeem all humanity and he's great enough to allow eternal life to not just be something that's this pie in the sky idea that he talks about how his throne will be forever.

29:44

And you know, the whole Bible is, is this, you know, mosaic of God reconnecting with man that, you know, it was severed in the garden of Eden when man decided to define good and evil on his own terms.

29:57

But now God's reconnecting and he is reconnecting by saying, Hey, by the way, this is, this is a little bit about me.

30:04

Just like you would connect with someone over coffee or, or lunch, Hey, this is a little bit about me. And this is, you know, let me, let me hear about you.

30:11

Well, well now we are his creation. So, so he knows everything about us, but, but he still wants to hear from us and, and he wants us to know about him.

30:20

And there's, there's a depth in that relationship and there's, there's strength in that relationship.

30:25

And it is a, it is a fountain, as Jesus said in John four, that will never run dry.

30:30

Like, like this is, this is the secret to, to lasting peace and, and to the way that Christian life was meant to be lived a hundred percent.

30:41

So I'm just thinking like an omnipresent God that is beyond our understanding. This is me trying to rationalize and understand is, so God is kind of the creator and Jesus was on earth.

30:53

It feels like to me, the Holy Spirit is the omnipresence part. Would that be, or do you think the

30:59

Holy Spirit serves a different purpose? And God is always omnipresent, always all knowing the Holy Spirit is like the messenger.

31:05

Like I'm trying to compartmentalize the role of the Holy Spirit right now. Yeah. So, and that's where, you know, there are, there's, there's so much we could talk about there, but if I could break them into two different categories,

31:20

I think it'll help us. One is there's a category of attributes that God has that are things that we can replicate, things that we can do.

31:30

And, and in the theological, you know, arena, they're called communicable traits, right?

31:35

They're things that we can actually do. We can, you know, you can be loving and you can be, you know, gracious, just like God, you know, you can reflect

31:46

God in these areas. Okay. However, you cannot be omnipresent and you cannot be omniscient.

31:52

Those are non -communicable traits. Those are traits only God has. You cannot forgive.

31:57

Only God can forgive. And so when Jesus is on earth, he is fully man, but he's also fully

32:06

God. So he walks up to Nathaniel and he said, I saw you. And Nathaniel was like, what, huh?

32:11

And he's like, yeah. When you were under the tree and he described everything that he was doing, I saw you there showing that he was, he was omniscient.

32:19

He knew what was happening all at once. Right. So just because he was a man doesn't mean that he, you know, wasn't fully

32:26

God as well. There's so many examples of that, that where God was forgiving sins and he was doing things that no mere man could do.

32:35

And so it's beautiful that God would come down to us, that he would, that he would indwell this earth.

32:44

I mean, he would come down to this. I shouldn't have used the word indwell, but he would come down to this earth and he would be with us is what

32:50

I meant to say. And, and that just there's, there's beauty in that he would be tempted in all points like we are yet without sin.

32:58

He feels that empathy, you know, but, but yet he is still full, fully God. Okay.

33:06

Okay. Yeah. I, it's so hard to grasp. I understand why people struggle with it, but I'm going to ask you to do something kind of difficult,

33:14

Peter, but what are some of the main issues people have with the Trinity? Because I feel like I don't understand it fully enough to ask the questions, but what are some of the things you think should be clarified because people have the most questions about it and they need to be like, at least from your perspective, set straight from what you know.

33:30

Yeah. And I want you to know that there are a lot of, there are a lot of complex theological things.

33:37

So I, I get why people are constantly, you know, gnawing on this,

33:42

I mean, trying to figure this out. Right. But I think the biggest thing is where we try to explain away the divinity and the miraculous, you know, power of the

33:53

Trinity. I think a lot of denominations and a lot of, a lot of really smart people have just chosen to go another route.

34:02

And there's some denominations that teach that, you know, Jesus was you know, that, that he became

34:08

God slowly, like he developed into fully God, you know, well, the Bible doesn't teach that.

34:15

And some, some teach that, you know, Jesus and, and Lucifer, Satan were brothers.

34:21

And there are a lot of things where we explain away, I already told you about Judaism where, you know, they don't believe that Jesus was even, you know, any divine at all.

34:32

And, and they believe that to teach that God is anything but God, the father, as we would call him is heresy.

34:41

And they, they totally reject that. And so, and then, and then you have people who believe that, you know, there's just two parts there's, there's

34:52

God, the father, God, the son and, you know, we're reading into the spirit and they really kind of almost just look at the

34:59

Holy Spirit as like this essence, but he's not really a part of the Trinity. So there's a lot of different views, but I would say that, that you really have to ignore a lot of scripture and you have to twist a lot of scripture in order to get a non -Trinitarian view.

35:14

And I'm not just saying that because I'm a, I'm a Trinitarian pastor who believes in the Trinity. I'm just saying that as, as a

35:19

Bible believer, as someone who, who wants to come to the text, not to read into my own perspective, but, but to say,

35:26

Hey, this is, this is what the Bible says, like, like, you know, all throughout the text, it's revealing this.

35:33

And so why would we ignore it? Why would we push against that? And, and some of the same people that push against the Trinity cast, they also push against a lot of the miracles and they say, you know, well,

35:44

Jonah wasn't really swallowed by a great fish. It was more of a metaphor and, you know, and, and, you know,

35:51

Jesus didn't really feed the 5 ,000. I mean, he, they, they brought their lunch, but you know, he, you know, this was, you know, just, and they explain away every single miracle and he didn't really rise again from the dead.

36:04

He just kind of swooned in the grave. And these things have been said for 2000 years. And I think it's important for us just to step back and say, okay, it takes faith, but I believe in the miraculous.

36:15

And, and by the way, I think it's honest. I think it's intellectually honest to say all of us believe in the miraculous, all of us, everyone believes in miracles.

36:26

And, and I always, I always love talking to people who say, well, I don't, I don't believe miracles.

36:31

And I'm like, bro, absolutely. You do, you know, like, like, like big bang, that's a miracle, you know?

36:39

Like now, now who caused the miracle? We can debate that. Right. But I mean, we all believe in miracles.

36:44

We all believe in things we can't explain. And so, so I'm just, I'm just willing to say,

36:50

Hey, this is my miracle. So, okay. So I was listening and I'm trying to find like issues people would have.

36:57

Like, I'm trying to relate and put myself in the shoes of people that have issue with this. And I, I feel the, the polytheist issue.

37:04

I can absolutely understand why people would believe if we worship the father, son and Holy spirit, why that would look like worshiping three gods.

37:11

I never thought of it that way because I've totally bought into the doctrine and now I'm re -questioning it, but that is really interesting.

37:19

So the key difference between Judaism and Christianity, just so we're clear and I'm clear is that Jews don't believe that Jesus was the

37:28

Messiah because they see that as worshiping two gods. Yes. And I, I, I would be reluctant to say that's the main key.

37:36

I mean, they, they are still looking for the Messiah. Um, you know, they, they, there's another big, you know, we talked about this,

37:45

I think the last time where, you know, they, they look at the Torah, you know, the first, first five, uh, books and then, you know, the

37:53

Tanakh, which is, you know, all 39 books of the old Testament. Um, and they look at that and say, well, that's good.

38:00

And it's scripture, but we also, you know, need the rabbinical writings, you know, um, the

38:06

Midrash and, and, you know, the Talmud that we talked about last time. So, you know, they, they would, they would kind of add what

38:13

I would look at it. And again, I'm not trying to be harsh or anything. They would look at adding, adding these things to the text.

38:18

Like you also need, you know, yeah, scripture is good, but you also need this. And they would take, I think the biggest difference is they would take the 613 laws and they would basically say like, no, these are how these are, these are what make you

38:32

Jewish. You, you are Jew because you practice these 613 laws that are in the old

38:38

Testament and Christians believe that Jesus came, um, to fulfill the law.

38:45

Um, doesn't mean that all the laws were bad. It means that he came to give grace. Now, now we are in a dispensation,

38:52

I believe a dispensation of grace. Um, and now we do not look at, at God, the father is as Judaism does, uh, as standing over us and distant from the affairs of man, but, but ready to, you know, slam his fist down with anyone who breaks one of these laws, right?

39:09

Cause that's, that's how it's taught in Judaism. Um, that there's this fear and, and by the way, the

39:14

Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Like I recognize it's, there's, it's good to have a healthy fear.

39:20

Um, but the problem with that is Jesus already slammed his fist down on Jesus.

39:26

So Jesus took on the wrath of the father for us. And so if I am, if I am living afraid of God, the father,

39:35

I'm missing what God, the father did for me to Jesus on my behalf.

39:43

And so my favorite verse in the Bible is second Corinthians five 21, because it says that God made

39:50

Jesus sin for me who knew no sin, Jesus knew no sin that I might be made the righteousness of God in him.

40:00

I don't earn righteousness. There's 613 laws. I am made righteous by Jesus and through his grace.

40:09

That to me is the greatest message because now I'm not trying to achieve it.

40:15

I am receiving it. Wow. Yeah, I can see the distinction here.

40:21

I mean, I've been having a lot of conversations about, you know, how are we different, how are we the same from the Jewish faith and I've learned so much over these last couple of weeks of, you know,

40:29

I didn't truly like elementary level understanding of Christianity. I cannot emphasize that enough. I didn't know that the first five books of the

40:36

Bible were the Torah. I had no idea. And just learning about the other books and how it's influencing the diaspora of how we went from Judaism into Christianity, that was a whole history lesson

40:47

I needed to go through. But I understand that the reason we're still separate, you know, why haven't we meshed together if we're so similar?

40:53

You know, like the reason we're still so separate is because of kind of how they, their framework of how it works, their framework of what obedience looks like, their framework of what being faithful looks like is very different from what we believe, you know, they believe there's still work to do and we believe the work's already been done.

41:09

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And you know, the way I say it to our church here in Palmdale is, you know, religion as a whole, and I'm not bashing religion totally, but religion as a whole, the religious system, if you will, is trying to get you to do what

41:26

Jesus has already done, and I think that, that if we're, if we're really honest, what

41:33

Jesus claimed he was going to do on the cross and rising again was, was summed up in his last words, was one word,

41:41

Tetelestai, which means it is finished. And the reason why he said it is finished is because he had already done the payment.

41:49

And every time in religion, we threw something that's, that's good. It's, it's, we're doing good works, but if we're doing that to earn our salvation, what we're saying is,

42:00

Jesus, what you did on the cross wasn't enough. So I have to add to it. And so one of the things that I've just been really passionate about, very lovingly, not, not in saying

42:11

I'm right, you're wrong, you know, none of that, but just, Hey, um, what

42:16

Jesus did was enough. And culture says you are enough. Like you're enough.

42:22

You, you, you know, you are sufficient. And the gospel says you weren't enough, but in Christ, he's enough for you.

42:31

It's a huge difference. And so it's so important for us to come to what

42:37

Jesus did and say, okay, Jesus, what you did on the cross was absolutely enough. It was enough to forgive me.

42:42

It was enough to give me a relationship with, with God in heaven. I received that by faith.

42:48

And, and now, now it's not anything I did, but it's all of grace. And this was what the reformation was all about.

42:55

Um, it was basically saying, Hey, it is, you know, by grace, through faith, you know, uh,

43:03

Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone. Um, and, and that's, you know, for, for centuries, that's been kind of the rub, uh, between, um, those who, who, you know, practice religion as a system of good works to get to heaven and those who believe that good works start after salvation.

43:23

Yeah, yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Wow. It's a lot of heavy stuff. Okay. So the

43:29

Trinity itself, I feel like, I don't know. I feel like I'm really, it makes a lot of sense to me today, but as you know, we're down 2024, how do you recommend faster

43:39

Peter on how we should really experience all three, all in one in a view that is holistic and as one, not three separate things, because we're human and we like to compartmentalize the physical of Jesus in front of us, the

43:51

God omnipresent that rules over things, and then the Holy spirit, which is the feeling that I feel when I'm in worship and it makes me want to cry, right?

43:57

You know, I'm trying to compartmentalize all three of those things as separate. But if we're a new Christian or if we're just trying to objectively understand this, because I think,

44:08

I think personally, this is just a hot take. I think the Bible is so amazing because it's so subjective, but is the most objective belief system there is because all of it just already exists.

44:19

It's really up to us to have faith in it. So how do I lean into something that already exists where I have an

44:27

American mind that wants to separate it? Yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely. So, um, I would just look at how

44:34

God has made you, uh, God has created every person, uh, with a body, uh, with a mind and with the spirit, we recognize that.

44:43

And so we are three in one beings. Um, God made us that way.

44:49

God, God, you cannot live without your mind. You can't. Um, and, and obviously your body is the house.

44:57

The Bible talks about, um, the Oikos. It's the house of, or the, or it uses also the tabernacle, the temple of the

45:05

Holy spirit. Like you, so, so everyone has a spirit, but the moment you receive

45:11

Christ, you receive his spirit. So your spirit, the Bible says is quickened or it's come up, you know, some translations say it comes alive.

45:19

So body, mind, and spirit is, is three, but, but we don't talk about you in three ways.

45:25

In fact, people who talk about themselves in third person, we're like, uh, okay. That is an amazing point.

45:31

You're right. We don't say, oh, my mind thought this today. And then my heart did this. Yeah. My body did this and you might talk about it from some point, but, but you, it's just, it's you.

45:42

It's who you are. Wow. Who you are is what we see, but also who you are is what no one sees.

45:49

What only you and God see on the inside of you. Right. And so those are the same people just from two different vantage points.

45:58

And so I think that God has revealed to us, not just in the pages of scripture, but all around us.

46:04

I mean, the egg has the shell and the, and the yolk and the, you know, the egg white.

46:09

It's just, there's every, I mean, you could look at everything in, in, in this world and you realize, oh, wait a second.

46:16

Like there are multiple points, parts that we can't see. I mean, even if you go down to the, to the mechanics of an atom or a cell, you can see this, it's, it's, it is really remarkable that God basically stamped even onto our

46:31

DNA, the fact that we are three in one, we are three in one beings and he is a three in one being and, and yes, can we, can, can we acknowledge that it's really hard for us to wrap our minds around and that we probably won't understand everything.

46:46

In fact, John Wesley said, if, if you know, a worm could comprehend a man, then a man can comprehend the

46:55

Trinity. I just really believe that there are some things we're just not going to comprehend. There's, there's just, we can't, our minds do not have the, the infinite capacity to understand and to fully grasp it.

47:08

However, I think on a, on a very simple scale, we can understand and look around us and see, okay, that God has revealed this to us and, and it's okay to not fully understand it, but it's something that, again, we, we have to make a decision, are we going to accept this by faith because the

47:28

Bible is filled with absolutes and because the Bible is revealed truth to us, are we going to reject that or accept it?

47:37

And if, and if we're going to accept it, it's kind of an all or nothing deal. Like we're going to accept all of the truth or you really have to say none of the truth and, you know,

47:46

Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson, he realized this, he went through his Bible and he cut out all the places that he didn't really like.

47:52

He wanted a Bible that would kind of fit him. And he realized that the God that he was serving was not God at all.

47:57

It was the God of his own making. He wanted a God that would never offend him. And if we want a

48:03

God that never offends us, then we are our own God. I want a God who's willing to tell me what

48:09

I need to hear, not what I want to hear. I want a God who's going to help me beyond me because I, I'm going to mess it up.

48:17

I'm, I'm going to be the one who is, you know, as Proverbs says, you know, a man left to his own way will always find destruction.

48:27

You know, there is a way that seems right in a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. And so we, we all have to choose.

48:33

Okay. Am I, am I going to go my own way or am I going to go God's way? I like, don't even want to interrupt you,

48:39

Peter, because I just want to let you cook. You just keep saying good truths one after another, after I'm like making notes like, okay,

48:45

I got to go back to that, but I got to let him keep talking. I want to go back to the, the word metaphor is mind blowing.

48:53

And like, I think this podcast is great because I'm okay with saying I don't know anything. You know, I cannot fathom the basic level of Christianity, let alone all of it.

49:01

And to think that for even the most expert, expert human to try to understand

49:08

God, let's just say we take the smartest person in the room that, you know, the most, whatever, let's just say he's knows the most, he or she to understand

49:17

God is like a worm trying to understand the human holding it. That is absolute insanity, but I truly like that's the level of humility we need to have when it comes to the word of God.

49:29

That's the level of faith we need to have in something that we cannot fathom. So, oh my gosh, that, that was an amazing quote.

49:37

John Wesley is probably one of the most brilliant, most incredible, um, theologians and preachers.

49:46

I mean, you know, I haven't scratched the surface of what he knows. And for him to, to make that statement about the

49:53

Trinity, I just think it's like, okay, you know, I think I'm going to go to heaven, you know, having done all

50:00

I could to study, but there's so much that we don't understand and it does take humility to say, okay,

50:07

God, I'm going to do my best to obey and to live out what I do know, what

50:12

I do understand. And I'm going to leave the stuff I don't understand. I'm going to, I'm going to leave that with you and allow you to reveal what

50:18

I need to know as I need to know it. Right. And so it doesn't, you know, absolve us from all the responsibility of trying to, to listen to great podcasts like this and grow and learn, but it also, we shouldn't get frustrated that, that we, you know, don't have a full complete picture because I don't think that, you know, for all of eternity,

50:38

I think we will be trying to get that full picture. Absolutely. I think the visual of,

50:43

I mean, I'm just trying to interpret it as you're saying it, but it feels like the Jewish belief system is very much.

50:50

So taking the parts of the whole and believing in one part, whereas the Christian is taking each part, the father, son,

50:56

Holy spirit, or the mind, body, heart, and we're taking each part and recognizing the whole that it, that it encompasses, um, and Jewish faith is more so focusing on the part.

51:07

And I'm not bringing up these differences to segregate. I'm just trying to understand the source of the segregation here.

51:13

I'm not trying to create distance at all, because I think that there is a lot of overlap. There's just a lot of things that have happened that have created these belief systems that people really fall within, but I think that it is true.

51:23

I think that it really simplifies, you know, how can, I think a lot of questions get into the nitty gritty. And I was doing some research before this, but it was focusing on like, well, you know, if, if God and Jesus are the same, why did he come as a baby?

51:36

And if the Holy spirit isn't an angel, why does it appear to people? And we're trying to like. Equal these things to what we can see with a level.

51:45

It's supposed to be that if it's a baby, it possibly can't be God. Um, but I think that if you just step back and like at the base of everything, like the true roots of it really lie at, there are parts that encompass that a compass, a whole here.

52:01

And when you just simplify it to that, those questions about the baby and the angels and the

52:07

Holy spirit, they kind of go away because they don't apply. Yeah. And maybe

52:12

I'm missing a bunch of questions here because again, this is a very new topic to me as a whole, but I am curious, you know, why this was an issue and I think that is interesting just from a, a history perspective on how it was developed and, you know, people struggled at that moment when they were in the council that, uh, you said areas, he was a

52:29

Bishop to Constantine. So it sounds like to Alexander, sorry. He was clearly a thought leader for Alexander who truly cared about this topic and he brought up something very normal to bring up very logical that,

52:43

Hey, if we're worshiping a guy who is saying he's God, wouldn't that make it two separate people?

52:51

Or if he's God, then wouldn't that make him just like a mere mortal? And then we've got a God. Like that's a very genuine question coming out of the

52:57

Jewish faith of if we worship one God, but we're also worshiping this guy, then it sounds like he's just a human and then we've got

53:03

God. Like, I'm not saying I don't believe in God. I'm just saying that I don't believe that a human could be God. So that's, that's interesting how all of the council members came to a unanimous decision that Nope, it's the

53:14

Trinity. But I mean, I don't know the history of it really fascinates me that people had to come to question because it's a very human way of thinking and now we've kind of come full circle to, well, this is beyond comprehension.

53:28

There is no way we're going to comprehend this God that is all knowing because if we could, then he wouldn't be a God. Um, you know, it is this, you know, worm to human type of comparison, but if you just back it up and say they're parts of a whole,

53:41

I can package that information into my human mind and make the most sense that I'm meant to make, you know, you have a

53:47

Deuteronomy quote that I like, I might get tattooed across my body. Like it is such a good quote that I think really anchors me that.

53:56

I mean, I'll let you say it, but you know, God will reveal what we're meant to know. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

54:02

The mysteries of God belong to God. I mean, you know, there are certain things that we won't know.

54:08

Um, and, and I, I truly believe that there's, there's things, even when we get into eternity, we won't have a full knowledge of, but that's okay.

54:17

Like we have to be okay with that. I think that our, our minds, you know, we, we, we go to these areas and we say,

54:25

I need to find it out. Like I, I, I need to, I need to understand it. And if I don't understand it, then I'm all out.

54:31

And, you know, I think that it's, it's okay to not know some things. It's okay to trust

54:37

God with some things. That's the essence of the Christian life. That's the essence of, of walking with him is you're saying, no,

54:44

I trust you. And it's okay not to know everything about it. And I know a lot of people who say, and in fact,

54:51

I have a really good friend and he's been coming to new life for two years and he doesn't believe in miracles and doesn't believe in the resurrection.

54:58

And, and, and, but his thing is, I want to know more. I want to know more before.

55:03

And, and I keep telling him, if you wait until you know everything before you place your faith, you will always wait.

55:13

You will, you will wait for all your entire life until you go into the next. And so at some point it, it is a leap.

55:21

Now it's not blind faith and I'm really important. This is a really important distinction. Okay. Because blind faith means

55:28

I'm not going to research. I'm not going to look at any of the evidence. I'm not going to read the Bible. I'm just, I'm just trusting, right?

55:34

That's the opposite of what I believe the Bible teaches. I believe informed faith is what the Bible teaches, that he gives you the, the reasons and, and his spirit bears witness with your spirit, the

55:47

Bible says. And so all of us, all of us can recognize that God can interact with man on that immaterial level.

55:55

And we, we, you know, at some point we'll, we'll, you know, call that something else like intuition or conscience, or we will recognize, okay, that's the

56:04

Holy spirit, that's the Holy spirit. And, you know, Romans eight talks about the

56:10

Holy spirit bearing witness with our spirit. And, and we, we discern whether it be of God.

56:15

And so that's, that's an important thing. And it's important part of our relationship with God as well. That's it's a good note to end on.

56:23

We're coming to the close, but how would you best recommend people who are experiencing what they think is the

56:30

Holy spirit in your personal opinion? How do you advise that they know it's the Holy spirit?

56:35

It's not just their emotions or their thoughts, or even an evil spirit. Let's say that it could be a demon trying to infiltrate, but how would you best recommend that like the

56:42

Holy spirit is with me? Yes, that's a great question. And I want to say that it's really important to not transpose our feelings and our emotions and call them the

56:54

Holy spirit. I think it's important for us to, to make sure to know that the

57:01

Holy spirit will never lead us to do something that the word of God says not to do. The Holy spirit will always lead us to do something that is away from our natural sinful inclination.

57:12

So, you know, if, if, if, if we're like, man, I really, I really should go help that person, but I just don't want to.

57:21

And I don't think it's the Holy spirit. It's probably the Holy spirit leading you to go help that person. It wasn't

57:26

Satan that wanted you to go help that person, you know? And so a lot of times we, we say, Oh, that wasn't the

57:31

Holy spirit. And we, we want it, you know, we wanted the Holy spirit to kind of go the way we want him to go. And so he won't ever lead us to go against scripture.

57:39

He'll always lead us in the direction that is selfless and self -sacrificial. And then the third thing

57:46

I think is really important is the Holy spirit is going to interact with us in, in allowing us to see more of who

57:56

God is and less of who we are. And so, you know, in Philippians two, it says that Jesus came in the form of a servant, he humbled himself and, and, and he poured himself out.

58:09

He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister and give his life a ransom for many. And so I think it's important to understand that, that when we're, when we're walking in the spirit, we're seeing the fruit of the spirit.

58:22

We're seeing more love. We're seeing more joy, more peace, more long suffering, more gentleness, goodness, faith.

58:28

We're seeing all these things happen. And we recognize, Oh, this isn't me. This is the Holy spirit in me.

58:33

Like I would have absolutely cussed that person out like three months ago, you know, and it's not because I'm a better person, it's because the

58:41

Holy spirit's in me doing a work in me and I'm allowing, I'm just, I'm allowing him to control me.

58:47

And so when Ephesians says, be not drunk with wine, where in his excess, but be controlled or be filled by the spirit, he's saying,

58:54

Hey, listen, just as alcohol can control someone's mind for, for a temporary moment, allow the

59:00

Holy spirit to control you all the time. Allow him to be the one to guide you and surrender yourself to that because he will.

59:06

And there have been times, even on this podcast right now, where I was going to say one thing and it's like,

59:12

Nope, I'm saying this other, and, and I just can't take credit for that stuff. And I really believe that if we try to take credit for the good that's done, then honestly we have to take credit for the bad that's done.

59:24

And the problem with doing that is good. Good things go to our head and the tough things go to our heart.

59:32

The successes puff us up and the, the failures really devastate us.

59:39

And so when you step out of it and you say, okay, God, it's your spirit. I'm going to give, it's not by my might, not by my power as, you know, the, the old

59:51

Testament says, but by my spirit, say it, the Lord, by the way, there's hundreds of references in the old

59:56

Testament. I meant to say that about the Holy spirit. But, but just the Holy spirit leading us and guiding us and saying, it's not, not of me, it's of him.

01:00:05

That is such a good point. I'm really glad you brought that up because I have definitely felt a transformation within me.

01:00:11

Once I started this podcast, like the Holy spirit has been putting in work with me. And I think that is really evident of,

01:00:18

Oh, like, and I was saying this, like, this is proof that there are fruits being born from your faith.

01:00:23

Even if right now you're like, I've been Christian and nothing's changing. I feel like just from personal experience,

01:00:29

I would think away. And let's say it's the unhealthy, sinful way, you know, just let's say, um, you know, you want to cuss somebody,

01:00:37

I'll go with your example is you want to cuss somebody out and then you choose not to. So you kind of look back and you're like, man,

01:00:43

I did the right thing. I'm doing better. You know, that you can kind of recognize the Holy spirit's guiding you to do better, but I think it also works in the reverse of like things that probably.

01:00:52

Um, let's say you like lost a friend because you know, you didn't bore into them, you didn't, you know, put faith in them, you don't love them enough.

01:00:59

Maybe in the past you would have said like, whatever, easy come, easy go. And maybe now you've recognized, like, my heart is saddened because I lost a brother or sister.

01:01:09

This is truly impacting me to a depth that it never has before. I think that is like equally the

01:01:15

Holy spirit working in you and creating death, because now you feel these emotions. You feel that pain, you feel the highs.

01:01:21

Absolutely. Because now you're finding, you're finding worth and value and things that you previously maybe thought weren't valuable, you know, like not drinking or not partying as much or being celibate, whatever it might be.

01:01:33

And now before that would have been like, Oh, not, I'm not going to not do that. I love those things. And maybe now you're like,

01:01:38

I don't want to, which is crazy because I used to love those things. So what is this within me?

01:01:44

That's actually finding like, that's not the vibe. Like that doesn't actually seem attractive. It kind of seems like a waste of time now.

01:01:50

Like maybe I'm just growing up, maybe I'm just getting more mature, but. Whatever the reason is that it's undeniable that the things that I used to find joy in no longer bother me.

01:02:00

Whereas equally the things that I maybe used to brush off or kind of say like, well, that's life.

01:02:05

That's what you get. That's what you deserve. Whatever it might be now. I'm like, no, that that's truly sad that that didn't work out, even though I'm fine and I'm good.

01:02:14

The fact that that impacted you, like the level of empathy has truly increased because you know, now things just matter more.

01:02:21

I don't know how else to say it. Like, that seems like a pretty oversimplified version, but things matter way more for the things that are really born from Christ.

01:02:29

Whereas before it was just like, I don't know, I want to say like numb, like it felt numbing compared to what it is now.

01:02:36

Yeah. Well, you're more alive. And so that's what the Holy spirit does. He makes you more alive than you were before.

01:02:44

And the word gentleness in the Bible is that the closest word that we have to what was a much later word that we now use as empathy, and if you go back and you study what they meant by gentleness, it wasn't just by, you know, being, you know, we would say being gentle, like be gentle with that person or, or that thing or whatever.

01:03:03

That's not at all what it was talking about. It was talking about the awareness of someone else's hurt.

01:03:09

That's what empathy is. And, you know, sympathy is, Oh, I'm sorry for you. You know? Oh, you know, sucks to be you, you know?

01:03:16

Yeah. But, but empathy is I'm here for you and I'm weeping with you.

01:03:23

And I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm sitting with you in your sorrow. That's what gentleness is in the Bible too.

01:03:28

So yeah, you're more alive and, uh, it's a, it's a great thing to walk in the spirit and, you know, it's, it's not a prideful, you know, like,

01:03:37

Hey, this is all me. It's like, man, the Holy spirit's working on me and I'm not where I want to be, but I'm not where I once was.

01:03:44

And I'm so thankful. Yes, that is such a good way to end. I'm not where I want to be, but I'm definitely not where I was.

01:03:51

And that is a win. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love having you on this podcast,

01:03:57

Peter. Oh my gosh. I can't wait to have you back. But, um, I want to shout out your amazing church. Tell us about it. How can people attend one of your services, either virtually in person, if they want to hear more?

01:04:07

Sure. Yeah. We have a lot of people who join us online every week. Uh, we have three services right now, uh, eight 30

01:04:13

Pacific time, uh, 10 and 1130. And it's just, um, new life church here in Palmdale.

01:04:19

Uh, it's find new life .church, or you can look us up on Tik TOK, uh, Instagram, uh,

01:04:25

Facebook, whatever, wherever you're at and YouTube or where we stream our services. So yeah, look us up. Amazing.

01:04:31

Do you have any big events coming up that people could attend or any like big, like sermons that you're going to be preaching soon?

01:04:37

Yeah, absolutely. So we're in a sermon series called more than Sunday, how the church is not just a gathering on the weekends, how it's something that we're supposed to be, you know, having community and, and doing things during the week.

01:04:47

And this Sunday we're talking about grace and identity and, and just the, the discipleship of following Jesus.

01:04:55

Um, and then, uh, in February, the first week in February, we're starting a brand new series called, uh, brick layers and how brick by brick we're supposed to build our faith.

01:05:05

And, uh, so we're, I'm excited about it. It's going to be fun. That's amazing. Yeah, that definitely plays into the growth and the motif that kind of we're building right now today.

01:05:14

I, this was a really lively conversation and you really shed some light on something that is a source for, of confusion for a lot of people.

01:05:21

So thank you for like simplifying it and providing a lot of background and you quoted a lot of verses.

01:05:26

So I'll try to track them down and keep them included, but you clearly know what you're talking about. So thank you so much for your time today,

01:05:33

Peter. I really, really appreciate it. And, uh, we'll find another reason to have a podcast. I'm sure.

01:05:39

Always grateful. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

01:05:44

Thank you. Thank you for answering all my questions. I have so many and I appreciate you answering them. Absolutely. Well, have a good day.