Apologia Radio: God, Governments, and Culture

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It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills, and all the nations shall flow to it.

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And many people shall come and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways, and that we may walk in his paths.

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For out of Zion shall go the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

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What's up, y 'all? Hey! What up, Phil? Hey, Apologia Radio, y 'all. This is 1360 KBOQ, Faith Talk, baby.

00:40

And we're back, another week of Apologia Radio. Very special, actually, very, very special Apologia Radio, isn't it?

00:48

And isn't it? Yeah, this is gonna be an epic show. It is, it is. What's up, Jerry? What's up? How you doing? Jerry's looking it.

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Doing good, man. Yeah? Doing really good. Messing with Sage over here. All right, so I'm Jeff, that's

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Luke, and that's Jerry over there. And we have an entire studio full right now with the whole crew.

01:07

We've got Joel McDermott. What's up, Joel? I'm here, man. Si? Present.

01:14

That's Si, Tim, Brooke, and Kate. We're all sharing microphones right now because it's completely full. That's Ivy Connerly. How goes it?

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Marcus Pittman. Is this real life? Yes, it is. Or is it a fantasy? You said, how's what's going on?

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We got a room full of guys who are underslept. That's right. Overtraveled, overworked, haven't had a shower, and we're all stuck together touching elbows.

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Joel, I got a puritanical amount of sleep last night, so I'm pretty good.

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I slept, woke up every hour to check the smoker, and slept on Jeff Durbin's couch.

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And Sage is here, too. Sage, what's up? Say hi. Hello. And so, here we go.

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This is, it's finally here. The moment we've all been waiting for, and the moment that homeschool woodpeckers will be talking about for decades to come.

02:08

For the rest of time. History. History class. That's right. So this is the week we're doing

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God, Governments, and Culture Conference. This episode is going to air Saturday, but it'll be up on podcast worldwide by tonight.

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And I want to encourage you, if you haven't got tickets yet, you can make it. You can get them at ggcconference .org. Or you can show up and get tickets.

02:30

You can join us. We're going to have all the speakers that I just introduced at the conference talking about all kinds of great stuff we're going to fill you in today about.

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And we're going to have the anticipated debate between Joel McDermott and J .D.

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Hall on the law of God. So very excited. Luke, are you excited, dude? Very.

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You ready to go, dude? Yeah. Yeah? I got sleep. I'm feeling good. Yeah, man. We, I mean,

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Marcus and Ivy and I were up last night till like two or more in the morning. Probably 2 .30

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actually when we actually went to bed. We're talking, rapping about God, the gospel, culture, and the scriptures.

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And we also had to fix Joel's smoke went out. His fire went out. Hey, we fixed it quick, man.

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Yeah, we did. But I did learn that we are not that good at starting fires. No. It's actually much tougher than you might think.

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I'm really glad for a lighter fluid. Yes. I hope you're okay with that. Marcus saves his fire starting for Facebook.

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That's right. I was just thinking though, imagine if we had to actually like saw together a fire from two pieces of wood last night just to keep those coals going.

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Yeah. It's awesome that the toils reverse to the point where we can just throw fuel on it. All right.

03:45

So again, this is the big week, guys. And so we want to, let's bring everyone into it.

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So this whole entire conference, the debate came about because just really a few months ago, a friend who was actually a disciple of Bonson, went to his church, sent me a video from a brother named

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J .D. Hall, who does a broadcast called Pulpit and Pen. And he said, Jeff, you got to check this out. It's just, it's just bad.

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It's it's you got it wrong and you got to, you really got to hear this. And so I listened to it and it was just a lot of wrong and needed to be addressed.

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And I think in my own mind, we're up to the conference now we can talk about this. I just I think that J .D.

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is a solid brother in Christ. And I think that he just was on the radio and this topic popped up in his mind or on the plate.

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And he just started to talk about something that I think he knew at the time very, very little about. And so that's because of how much he misrepresented it.

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And so we responded, I think, very respectfully, very graciously to the things that he said. And so J .D.

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got a hold of it and said, hey, I'm going to listen to it and I'll get back to you guys basically. And so he responded.

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And so what happened was, is we decided we're going to make this discussion between us much bigger and and much more available to more people over the long run and something more meaningful.

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And so we were able to organize this to where Joel could do a debate with J .D. Hall on the law of God.

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So, Joel, I want you to kind of fill in now what from your perspective, where are you at and how do you feel about the debate, the conference?

05:17

Well, I think I'm going to start studying for the debate tonight. That'd be good.

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Maybe read a book or two on the topic. But I know I'm right. Yeah, I know

05:28

I'm right. Yeah. No, no. I mean, actually, I've had very cordial dialogue with J .D. Hall, and I'm really looking forward to this as an opportunity to, you know, we've had previous debates on theonomy that either took place in a very academic setting and they weren't very public and they were very early.

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People still hadn't really worked through a lot of the material yet or the probably the most famous debate was between Gary North, Gary DeMar, Dave Hunt and Tommy Ice.

05:56

Yeah. That was a lot more along the lines of eschatology. So nobody's actually sat down. Let's narrow down on the on the focus of mosaic judicial law and how they apply today and debate this as a topic.

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And to his credit, that's all what J .D. wanted to do. He said, let's not get off the eschatology or anything else, debate this issue.

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And I think that's what's exciting about it, because we can actually put that on the table and really get on into all the nuances.

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And so my hope is that's what the debate actually happens. He really tries to challenge me from scripture on that topic and not turn it into the what his podcasts were, which is see how many boogeyman quotes we can pull out of theonomic writers or at least try to present them that way.

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So there's a lot of potential here, I think, not not necessarily for the debate, but as far as having a discussion that will endure beyond this event that people can go to and say, oh,

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OK, now I see what they're talking about. Yeah. OK, why bother, though, Joel, why bother? What's what's what's what's the big thing about talking about the law of God?

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Don't we have bigger things to do? Or is this a meaningful discussion to have between brothers? Go into all the world, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the

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Father and Son of the Holy Spirit, and that's where it stops. Yeah. Right. Right. That's it. No, there's no more. Teaching them all things

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I've commanded you. Yeah. Well, that's the whole of Scripture. And he's not just talking about saving souls to go to heaven.

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He's talking about Christian civilization, Christian society, the kingdom of God and all that it represents.

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Yeah. And so, yes, of course, it's important you leave that out and you end up with what we have today.

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You've got liberal churches, homosexual marriage is being embraced by people calling themselves

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Christians, and it goes on and on and on. Well, if you teach biblical law at the levels of family, church and state, you can avoid a lot of these problems, at least have a tradition in place where you can point to and say, no, this is what we should be doing.

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And when we evade that responsibility, you get what we have today. Yeah, that's right.

07:58

All right, y 'all. So let's bring you guys in now. Cy, you came all the way from Canada, brother. Yeah, it was minus 18

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Fahrenheit when I left. Are you excited to be here? Oh, it's great. You know, I love my Nissan. I have a Nissan. But, you know, I look at my car, it says minus 27 degrees

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Celsius. And beside it, it says a little thing that says icy. I don't need my car to tell me it's icy. I know.

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But, you know, I was thinking, looking around the room. You actually had to put on long pants. Yeah. Looking around the room,

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I don't know how many people have actually met J .D. Hall, but I spoke at his Reformation Montana last year. I met him and he's a wonderful brother.

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And I believe we're going to be doing some fellowshipping with him, too. So that's fantastic. Now, it's interesting,

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I think, since he found out I was a theonomist, that I wasn't invited back to Reformation Montana this year. But like I say, he's a great brother and it'll be nice to hook up with him again.

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And I'm looking forward to this. I'm really looking forward to this debate, you know, so that I could learn more about this position as well, because I've never heard a good argument against it.

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You know, I don't really understand the position that well. But when people speak against it, I'm thinking, well, that's not what they're saying.

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So I'm looking forward, you know, I'm praying for both sides, praying for Joel and for JD, that they represent, that they honor

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Christ in this debate. And it's a teaching moment that people can see the positions and that, you know, by the grace of God, come away understanding the true position, the right one.

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Yeah. Joel and I were talking last night for a long time. And Joel, you and I are talking about the course generally people take in their thinking process to get to a view of understanding that God's the absolute standard.

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He's the ultimate authority. When he speaks, he's the source of knowledge, certainty, truth. And so when he's spoken on areas of justice from a presuppositional standpoint, a mindset that God's the standard and we have certainty because he's spoken, that leads you inevitably to a view that, well,

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God's law is the standard because God's the reference point, not man. Sure. So talk about that.

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I think a lot of people, of course, a lot of people get into the theonomy movement from different angles. Yeah. Some of them come into it studying

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American history. Some of them come into it through through changing their eschatology and you become post mill.

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And the next thing you want post mill with legs on it. Yes. Right. Or some people come through reading, studying presuppositional apologetics, and they go through that that middle process of saying, well, if God's sovereign here and there's no neutrality, well, then what about in this area of life?

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What about that area of life? Next thing you're a theonomist. And some people come straight through reformed theology. God, just like you just discussed.

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Yeah. And I think a lot of people in that world, if you leave them alone and you don't introduce this particular topic to them, they will sound like theonomists 80 percent of the time.

10:31

Right. So and I can show you that in many of the guys who are devoutly our opponents, when they go confront abortion, it's

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God's law. God's going to judge this nation if we don't get rid of this abomination. Hardcore pipette. I mean, it's like nothing exists except the book of Leviticus when you're attacking abortion.

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Yes. But then you say, OK, well, how does that apply to the monetary system? How does that apply to the court system?

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Oh, no, but we don't get involved. We're here to save souls. Yes. And there's this disconnect between the two.

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And and I think to a lot of the younger generation are beginning to make the connection and they don't have any hang up.

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I think they're not stuck in the traditions that a lot of people are stuck in. And they're certainly not stuck in the dispensational paradigm that a lot of their parents and previous generation are.

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And so they're more willing to make those connections. That's why you're seeing a lot of young people get in our movement. And that's why you're seeing a lot of their pastors and their favorite leaders start criticizing it more because they're trying to stop that.

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They're trying to plug the holes in the dike, so to speak. Very good. That's that's some of it. I don't want to put it all on that, but that's certainly happening.

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All right. Y 'all stay with us, guys. God, governments and culture conference. Apology Radio dot com. Apology Radio will be right back.

11:44

All right. So I want to talk about what we just talked about. Marcus was saying that Beardbomb is awesome and I happen to agree.

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And Joel, you were dissing on it. Why? I'll say it again, man, if if that's what

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I asked you, that's what it takes. I asked you why. And you said it's manliness.

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It's manly. No, no. Marcus said it's manliness. It's like putting manliness on your face.

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That's right. And I said, if my manliness. Has to come out of a product that I buy off a shelf, I don't want to be a man.

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All right. And then I said, there's another name for that stuff. It's called makeup. The problem is someone like me, though,

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I get like a face fro. Yeah, I get like a face fro. You got to do what you got to do. Yeah. You know, sometimes, you know, if my wife said, you know, take care of the face for I'm not going to kiss you anymore.

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I'd buy the product. Yeah. OK. But you got to fight your battles. Pick your battles. Speaking of which, didn't your wife say she wanted you to shave,

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Jeff? She she. What do you still do with that? Let's see. The thing is, though, Cy. Oh, the thing is, is it filming a movie right now?

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And I already have the beard and half of it. So it'd be jolting to the audience if I take it off. But the thing is, though, my wife told me last time she said, take the beard off.

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So I took it off. And as soon as I took it off, she goes, yeah, you keep get it back. So. So your excuse to your wife is continuity.

13:16

Yeah. Yeah. And really, this movie is going to drag on for probably 20 years. Sorry, honey, the movie, the movie, the movie is not done yet.

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I'm going to jar the audience. And let's do this. And I want everyone to start jumping in here. Cy, I think it's a good place to start.

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You are you've made a reputation for yourself as as being the guy that points to God as the reference point that's to Christ as the foundation of all knowledge.

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And so that's what people understand your message to be, is that Christ is

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Lord. We start with him. We can't know anything apart from God. And and fill that in, because that's what obviously you're going to talk about a bit.

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But I want you to fill that in for maybe new listeners. When we talk as Christians about a Christian epistemology, how do we know what we know?

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Start the conversation, because that leads us into, I think, a discussion of God as a standard for the law of God and for the law.

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Debating Delahunty dot com. There you go. Debating Delahunty. Is that a movie that's coming out? Yeah, I think so,

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Marcus. Where can you get that movie at? Debating Delahunty dot com. Oh, OK. Is it available now? I believe it's available now.

14:21

It's available now. How much is it, Cy? I believe it's nine ninety nine. That's pretty awesome. You see,

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I said something in the earlier segment and Marcus gave him the evil eye. Well, he said more than that. He said, no, no, I complimented you.

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And what I said was, I'm very proud of you that you went an entire segment and didn't plug your film, Debating Delahunty.

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And you made me say it in such an important section, too, where we're talking about the authority. That's what I'm speaking of.

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The authority of the Great Commission. Please, Cy, tell us about the authority and centrality of Jesus Christ.

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Debating Delahunty dot com. Well, you see, debating Delahunty dot com and Colossians 1 dot com.

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Yeah, well, I do apologize for that, but it's the authority of the Great Commission. It's go therefore and make disciples of all nations, as we just repeated earlier.

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And a lot of people start the Great Commission there, but that's not what that's not where it starts. When you see a go therefore in scripture, you have to think, go what for?

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And Jesus Christ said, all authority in heaven and earth has been given unto me. Go therefore. And that is where the wheels fall off in the apologetic, is that it's a man -centered apologetic.

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God is Lord of our theology and man is Lord of our apologetics. And in this conference, I want to show people that if you don't start with God, Jesus Christ is

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Lord and the authority of our apologetic, the wheels fall off. It's useless. And that's that's, you know, the heart of what we do as apologists,

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Jeff. And I'm really looking forward to sharing this with the audience there. Hopefully there's be some fresh people. It's kind of tough on me because I know you're a presuppositionalist, so, you know, and you do a lot of this a lot better than I do.

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So I'm just hoping that I could share some new stuff with them. We have you and I, I don't know if you thought about this. We have three conferences together in the next three or four months.

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Yeah, we got this one. We've got Florida with Dr. White and Tony, a couple other guys. And then we got

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Matt Slick, you and me and Joe Booth and I'll be in Canada. That's right. Joe Booth's a good friend of mine. Should I be afraid?

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Should I be afraid of the weather? No, but you know what they do is for the bears up there, the tourists are given little bells to wear to scare the bears off.

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And I don't know if you know the difference between a grizzly bear feces and brown bear feces. Please tell me about the difference in bear feces.

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Grizzly bear feces has little bells in it. That's right. There you go. Which bear is best?

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The bear. Oh, I got to finally to meet the bear the first time. So that was great. He's a big guy. You said that I was big when you met me.

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He's a big guy. Now, you know why I call him the bear. Yeah, that was my nickname for him when I first saw him. Yeah, that's cute.

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What is his nickname for you? The Ninja. No, it's not. No, it's not.

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I don't know. I don't really have one. I mean, people call me the Ninja. That's where it came from. But he doesn't really he's never really had.

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He's named my son. My son Turtle. We call him Turtle because when he first met Stellar, when he was two weeks old, he was like, he looks like a turtle.

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I was like, he does look like a turtle because the way he poked a little head up and look around. So, yeah, that's so he's basically named my son.

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So that's why. So anyway, hello. So let's

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OK, I'm going to go a little further into that discussion. So you talk as foundational when you preach to people and you teach people how to do a biblical apologetic, you talk about God as the foundation of knowledge and that we can't know anything apart from God.

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So dig into that a little more. I get a lot of grief from that because they saw you've made this apologetic too easy.

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You've reduced it to epistemology. And I don't like using the big words because I didn't know what these things meant before. But that's the theory of knowledge.

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But why did I reduce it to that? Because all arguments depend on knowledge and it's the easiest to prove in scripture.

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Now, all things are foundational in God. But when the Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Jesus Christ.

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It's the easiest place to reference a scripture that say so you can say to the person, if you don't start with God, it logically follows that you know nothing.

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And I don't go to a campus and start with trivia. And I'm not dissing the people that do that. But we have a powerful message.

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I tell them, look, I'm a Christian. And if they say, well, you're crazy for being a Christian, I say, oh, really? Well, you know what the Bible says?

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If you don't start with God, you can't know anything. And then I expose that to them. And very quickly they give up knowledge. And I say, that's why you need to repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ, because that's the option.

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Jesus Christ or absurdity. OK, so let's attach to that, Joel. Here's here's my contention on the back on the back side of that.

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All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge this before. No, we didn't. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ.

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Right. Christ is has all authority in heaven and on earth. And so the question that I ask is if I want to know what justice is in society,

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I have to go to the source of all wisdom and knowledge, which is Christ, who actually has all authority in heaven and on earth.

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And the Bible says that's the civil magistrate, the civil authorities. They are the deacon of God.

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And yeah, so they're they're they're in God's hand there to obey God. So my question is, if Christ is the foundation of all knowledge, what would he say to the civil magistrate today?

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And and that's that's that's where I go in the issue of theonomy. Sure. So so theonomy is essentially a presuppositional argument.

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Historically, that's how it how it fell out. You had a young theologian and minister.

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What was that? He was he was he was whispering that your beard is beautiful. Oh, they didn't hear that.

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Only you did. I said he said one minute. One minute. That was God speaking.

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He was like, he's looking around. Good job. Good job, Joel. Great answer.

19:38

So, yeah, that's how it all fell out. Historically, Vantill had done all of his work, basically giving the foundations for presuppositional apologetics, which is what

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I just explained and you just explained. And Rush Juney was a young minister on an Indian reservation watching how government destroyed people's lives and began asking the question, well, what about justice?

19:57

What is a biblical view of justice? And he began to hash these. He read Vantill and it changed his life. Hang on to that.

20:03

All right, guys. ApologiaRadio .com, guys. More on this discussion with Joel and everybody else. Guys, stay with us.

20:08

Very excited to have the show with you guys. Be right back. Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock and the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat on that house.

20:28

But it did not fall because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand and the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house and it fell.

20:44

And great was the fall of it. All right, Joel. Hang on a second. Why do you keep reading from that Theonomy book?

20:52

That's good. Well played. Is that the Theonomy version you have there? All right.

20:58

So, Joel, you and I were rapping about a young man who was on an Indian reservation that saw the government destroy a people.

21:04

Yeah, I saw leftists and socialist policies destroy people's lives. And of course, that actually goes back to the 1870s, but that's a different story.

21:15

And he was asking questions, you know, how does how does the gospel take care of it?

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How does the Bible apply to this? And when he read Van Til, it rocked his world. And the first book,

21:26

I believe, that Rush Dooney wrote was By What Standard? Yeah. And that was really just a systematization, a condensed version of Van Til's thought in several essays.

21:39

And then that was 1958. And he continued thinking and writing one of the next books that he wrote in 63, he wrote

21:48

The Messianic Character of American Education. Epic. Epic book. Yeah. I mean, thick, dense.

21:54

Yes. It's hard to get through. I mean, as far as you're not going to sit and read it through overnight. Um, packed with footnotes.

22:02

But when you realize what the education basically shows you, what is the theology of the education system? And you say, theology of the education system?

22:09

I didn't know it had a theology. Well, why is there a theology of business, a theology of this, a theology of that?

22:14

That's not gospel. But yeah, it does. And he shows you how the worldview that's not

22:20

Christian develops in this area. And when you get done reading it like that, you're like, wow, these unbelievers, they're not only coming at it from a systematized worldview, dismantling

22:31

Christianity and society through this system. It is systematic and they, they're, they know what they're doing.

22:39

And then you ask what the Christian has been doing the whole time. There was a time when they were systematic about education.

22:45

Also, what happened in our society that we lost that. And so he's giving you, he's helping you see what happened in our society in a profound way.

22:56

And then, okay, what is the answer for this? Well, he continues it within that stream of thought.

23:02

And in 1968, he begins a series of sermons on the 10 commandments. And as he preaches through each, each commandment, he, he goes and brings in all the case laws that attach to that commandment.

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And he, what, that is the beginning of five years of sermons that became the institutes of biblical law in 1973 and phenomenal book.

23:24

I mean, as far as being the guy who blazed the trail with very little help at all, it's, it's just unparalleled almost in Christian history.

23:33

And I don't say that to Pat our movement on the back, I'm saying this is an epic book. And the guy did it almost single -handedly, you know, isolated out in California by himself doing these things.

23:47

So, and then that's the beginning of the movement. So that's the link between what, what

23:54

Si and you were talking about as far as the apologetic and the epistemology of it. I think it's important to point something out too,

24:01

Joel, when you talk about this, the beginning of the movement, we're talking about almost the reformation in this area.

24:08

We're talking about the resurgence of old Christian thought, Puritan thought. Yeah. There'll be a lot of people that would just, just have a knee jerk reaction to you calling this a reformation.

24:18

Yeah. And in so many ways, it's nothing but getting back to the Puritan reformation, what a lot of people call the second reformation.

24:25

Old school, crusty, plain vanilla Christianity. It really is. And I mean, that's why I was talking with you in the car on the way over here about this new book we just put out from Alice Baldwin, published in 1928, a secular academic woman who did the history of the

24:38

Puritan sermons that led up to all of the doctrines we hold dear in our political system. Yes.

24:44

Or, you know, the resistance of tyranny, all of that stuff came out of the New England pulpit, systematically over about six or seven centuries.

24:52

So that when the events came up that would have led to the American revolution, that what the tyranny of the

24:59

George and parliament were imposing on the colonies, it was the pulpit that inspired the people to say,

25:05

Oh no, you don't. These are our rights. This is biblical stuff. This is what we're here for.

25:10

This is how we run society and you're destroying it. And they fought a revolution for it. Yep. So everything we brag about today of all the great freedoms in America, badly eroded as they are, go back to the

25:24

New England pulpit, which was down the line, theonomic, not,

25:30

I mean, obviously there's some minor differences, but they were theonomic in a way that's completely lost in our pulpits today. That's right.

25:35

So this is a restoration of what we used to have. Yes. Wow. Powerful.

25:41

All right, guys, we've got a lot more show to do. We're going to talk about a lot more things, guys. You're going to hear from the speakers, what they're going to talk about.

25:48

You're going to hear from Ivy. Maybe he'll rap for us. I don't know. Stay with us. Do not think that I've come to abolish the law or the prophets.

25:57

I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them for truly. I say to you until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

26:10

Therefore, whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

26:17

But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. There it is, y 'all.

26:23

So that is Matthew chapter five, Jesus on the law. What was his view of the law?

26:29

Well, that, um, Jerry, you look at your itching and your pants to say something, right?

26:35

Itching very much. So I just want to bounce off of what you're talking about, the educational system. Um, and this quote

26:42

I found here by Douglas Wilson, just talking about, you bring up the myth and the myth in a trial when it applies to society and the state and, and government.

26:51

This is a, this quote really stuck out to me and I want to get your feedback on it. Um, he says every culture has blasphemy laws.

26:58

They are not always called that, but no society allows citizens to rail against the reigning deity.

27:04

And our pluralistic times, these blasphemy laws are called hate crimes, legislation, hate crimes, legislation, among these other euphemisms, they are really religious protections to keep the reigning

27:15

God Dimas from being blasphemed. Just want to get your thoughts on that. Oh, he's absolutely right. And that's something that's the on theonomic authors have written on extensively,

27:23

I shouldn't say extensively, but consistently, uh, rushed uni writes about it in the institutes. North's written about it.

27:30

I think that's where Doug Wilson's picking up that idea. I've written articles on it myself. Um, and the most visible place where that can be seen is, uh, in the hate crimes legislation.

27:40

There are other areas, however, I mean, it just in talk, I mean, there are words you can set, you can say words you can't say.

27:48

There are words that some people can say that other people say they, they lose their job. Yep. Um, so,

27:54

I mean, that's across the board and all those are, are different versions of blasphemy laws. Now, of course there's no death penalty attached.

28:00

Uh, that's a whole different story. But it is a blasphemy law. It's the enforcement of a way of speech.

28:06

See, it's either man's law or God's law. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so it's inescapable concept.

28:12

Yes. That's another part of no neutrality. This is inescapable. If you don't do this God's way, the pagans are going to institute it.

28:20

Satan is going to institute it in his society and take dominion. I mean, that's the bottom line. So, you know, and I'm not saying that can be solved overnight.

28:29

It's, it's a long, tough fight. It's a long battle for the hearts and minds of men, but that's the thing.

28:35

We don't even talk about it in our churches. We don't even preach on the law, let alone get into its nuances and see how does it not just affect education, but public discourse and media and business and all that kind of stuff.

28:47

We don't even talk about it. In fact, we haven't talked about it for so long that it's alien when we hear it.

28:53

And we're, you know, if you understand, you're like, wow, that's profound. Where's this been my whole life? And if you don't understand it, you're like, this is heresy, blasphemy.

29:02

So, so now Oh, wait, wait. Yeah, exactly. Wait, that's a blast. Or defriend them.

29:08

Just defriend them. Just defriend. I'm going to block you. Hey, I, I block people liberally.

29:14

So yeah, it's a two way street. So Joel, you block liberals or you block. Yeah. So in other words, with, uh, my best friends are liberals.

29:22

Man, stop it. Yeah. So in other words, with the whole aspect of the Thiam, you'd say it's really just more of a battle between on every, any area of topic when it comes to, uh, government, culture, uh, marriage, whatever it is, it's really a battle between who is, which, which laws reigning, which, uh,

29:37

God's law is reigning, whether it's demons versus God's in India or any topic of life, and that's the, really the whole big aspect of the.

29:44

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's an inescapable concept. You, you will serve somebody. You, everyone is a theonomist.

29:50

And I'm not using that in the sense that we try to convince other Christians to believe theonomy. Everyone is a theonomist, even unbelievers.

29:57

They have a God whose law they are following. And in fact, in fact, you look at it in the obverse, it's, it's whose law you are following says who your

30:08

God is. Yeah. You're speaking about ultimate authority, ultimate authority. Yeah. And so, yes, you're absolutely right.

30:13

Uh, that's, uh, that's what theonomy is talking about. You look like you want to say something. No, I just love this man.

30:19

He's preaching to the choir. I love it. It just seemed nice seeing a room full of theonomist. I'm looking forward to seeing a convention center full of theonomist.

30:26

I mean, well, and we're not scary. They might not all be yet, but by the time they leave, I hope they will be. And yeah,

30:31

I'm just loving it. You know, I didn't want to get in. I would just nod my head and oh yeah, debatingdelahunty .com. Yeah. These are the foundations.

30:39

Ready? Christ is the savior. He's the Lord of all. Salvation's only in him. When you're reconciled to him, you see him as the ultimate authority, the starting point of all of your thinking, and that leads you inevitably to this discussion of theonomy, whose voice is the ultimate voice.

30:55

What I love about that passage you read, theonomists have long since been really strong on that passage, because Bonson did his thesis on the

31:04

Matthew 5, 17 passage, and we often stop and leave off that last part where Jesus said, and that's really what convinces me so strongly.

31:13

I mean, you can argue over does fulfill there mean confirm the way Bonson argued it, or does it mean something else?

31:19

You know, when did heaven and earth, what all? Okay. Whatever. Yeah. But Jesus Christ says those that teach these things will be considered great in the kingdom of heaven.

31:29

Yeah. All right. There's no doubt that we are living in the inaugurated kingdom of heaven now with him on the throne.

31:35

That's right. Nobody, nobody would, only some very hardcore dispensationalists would disagree with that. If you agree with that, then you'd better teach every jot and tittle of the law because that's what

31:46

Jesus just said. And when you don't do it, well, again, you see the consequences. Christians that are watered down, that are weak, that are distracted over so, so many crazy things going on in the church.

32:00

And then, and honestly, self -righteousness is a whole different topic we could talk about.

32:06

When you, when you have Baptists or fundamentalists who want to stay true to the word, but they won't teach the law, they ended up creating a whole new series of laws to fill in those gaps.

32:16

You end up with like holiness, Pentecostals, wear the long sleeves, wear the long dresses, or don't drink, don't touch alcohol, or, you know, don't drink, don't chew, don't go out with girls that do.

32:27

All of those things are just nothing but man's regulations.

32:32

That's the true legalism. Yeah. So why don't you just can all that and actually go teach what the law teaches?

32:37

Yeah. And we need to say it's as new listeners are listening, they're really getting into this and understanding. We would say that the new

32:45

Testament is going to define for us, God's inspired apostles define for us where the change in administration happens, where the differences are, what

32:54

Christ has fulfilled and is no longer obligatory today. So what we're saying is a law of God is valid abiding.

33:01

It's the standard and whatever God tells us has been changed in administration or practice.

33:08

That is the defining moment for us. We assume it's continuity because of the God who spoke it.

33:14

Okay. Yeah. In fact, I'll be talking about that in my first talk. I think it's tomorrow night.

33:21

And I'm doing nothing but teaching what Bonson taught about that because he initially used that phrase, the abiding validity of the law in exhaustive detail.

33:30

And a lot of people latched onto that and said, Oh, so you're going to start sacrificing animals again, Levitical laws, circumcision.

33:37

This is the Galatian heresy. And no, no, no. That was the chapter of, that was the title chapter, the chapter of one of the type of, that was the title of one of the chapters.

33:47

And then if you actually read the chapter, he makes those qualifications all through there. In fact, he does in many places, like 70 places in the book,

33:53

I believe, or maybe he said there were 70 pages dedicated talking about the differences. So, um, people have these knee jerk reactions and then they,

34:01

I don't know, they get so prideful. They don't want to give up their criticism of it for whatever reason. I don't know, but it was written there from day one.

34:06

He's not talking about it. We say every jot and tittle because that's what Jesus said, but every jot and tittle goes through major transformations in the new

34:14

Testament and we account for those. Yes. So let's talk about that. And again, because the church hasn't been teaching this all along, we had to start from scratch and do it all over for the most part.

34:25

Yeah. And, um, you know, we're, we're just now digging up some of the older Puritan sermons and works where they actually did explain some of this stuff and it's been forgotten and buried, you know, and hasn't been published since the early 1800s or something like that.

34:40

Um, why? It's because the church lost its way. Church in America, in fact, in the West lost its way.

34:45

So, uh, yeah, we, we do make those distinctions and I'll be talking a lot about that tomorrow night.

34:51

Check this out. Um, Charles Hoadley records of the colony and plantation of new

34:57

Haven, 1638 to 1649, March 2nd, 1641. And according to the fundamental agreement made and published by full and general consent, when the plantation began and government was settled, the judicial law of God given by Moses and expounded in other parts of the scripture so far as it is a hedge and offense to the moral law and neither ceremonial nor typical, nor had any reference to Canaan, hath an everlasting equity in it and should be the rule of their proceedings.

35:26

That's the sort of thing. That is ultimately what the debate will come down to because it always, well, I'll talk about a lot more about that during the debate,

35:33

I believe, but it is, what is the general equity? What, what is the content of the general equity?

35:40

A lot of people attack theonomy with the general equity idea. Well, the letters of those laws don't apply today.

35:46

Only the general equity does. And that's the end of the discussion. And I would say, okay, tell me what the general equity is.

35:53

What is the general equity of a penal sanction? Well, I never thought about that.

35:58

This one thing that's missing from all of our critics is where's your written alternatives?

36:04

Where are the commentaries from people who are not theonomists telling us, going exegetically, telling us what is the general equity of each one of these laws?

36:12

Let me see your commentary on Exodus 21 through 23 and tell me what the general equity of each one of those is.

36:18

How does it apply to a modern nation, modern penal system? Does it apply? A lot of people use general equity to say none of it applies at all.

36:25

A lot of people use general equity to say, well, some of it applies, some of it doesn't, but they don't tell us what and how and by what hermeneutic.

36:32

So we're left, really, when they say that, it's just, I want to introduce a vague general term as a way of throwing the entire discussion into the clouds and I don't have to worry about it.

36:42

And I'm going to say, no, you have to worry about it. So let's deal with it. So, you know, that's a big thing.

36:49

As Hoadley said, the general equity applies. Well, he's got a much more definitive or a detailed definition of general equity than most people who use that phrase today.

36:58

And even Calvin, when he used the word equity, he didn't use common equity or general equity, he just said equity, was talking about something different than modern people do, depending on who it is, of course.

37:11

But that's the thing. Nobody defines what they mean or what the content of it is. So all of the law of God, Jesus says when he's asked a great commandment, he said, love

37:23

God, love neighbor. Everything in the law and the prophets built upon those two. So it is about love when we're promoting the gospel in society and we're telling the world about Christ and who he is and God's name, we're saying it's all about love.

37:36

It's all about love for God. It's all about love for neighbor because that's the substance of it. So, Joel, what are some consequences?

37:42

Society says, not God, Demas, not God, Demas, not

37:47

God, me. And so the consequence would be for neighbor, someone steals something.

37:53

I'll throw something out. Someone steals something and someone says, well, not God. We don't want that. We want our laws.

37:59

And so in some societies, someone steals something and they cut their hand off. Absolutely. So I see that as a problem as a

38:08

Christian, because here's what I'm saying. There's no justice there. There's no harmony brought there. There's no mercy there.

38:14

And someone just was maimed. Why? Because not God, man, not God, man. Absolutely. OK. And I think that was

38:21

Calvin's great error on the penal sanctions. He said for him, equity meant as long as this is punished, as the society sees fit, that's equitable.

38:31

But then I think even he sees the problem with that because he comes back later in that section and says, but then those are harsh barbarous laws in some nations have.

38:41

I don't even consider those laws. Well, OK. By what standard? By what standard? Mr. Calvin. Yes. Don't get me wrong.

38:46

I have the highest respect for Calvin. Yeah. And I think he was just wrong in this area. And I think he was wrong for the same reasons that many people go wrong today.

38:54

Mainly, I'll tell you the real reason. He was relying on a humanist hermeneutic that he had gotten from Thomas Aquinas, which

38:59

Thomas Aquinas had gotten from Aristotle. So the fact that they never reformed that area and stuck with the

39:06

Roman Catholic doctrine, and it still has consequences today. But yeah, absolutely.

39:12

There's no equity in that. But the question is, how do you know what the equity in that is? You know, Calvin uses that exact example.

39:18

He says theft as long as it's punished is fine. Some said the biblical punishment is restitution.

39:23

He said there were some nations where it was double restitution. There are some nations where the penalty was death. And he says, you see, it's

39:30

OK because everybody's punishing it. And that's what's what matters. And then somebody might say

39:35

I'm misrepresenting Calvin there. No, just go read it. That's what he says. It doesn't matter if the forms of punishment and the punishments are different.

39:42

As long as the law is punished, it's equitable. And I'm saying, no, this stuff is not true.

39:48

Love, love for neighbor. Yeah. Compels us to care about that. Yeah. And but love for neighbor needs a definition.

39:55

It has a definition of interpersonal ethics. It has a definition in social ethics. And God gives us that.

40:00

And the law, he tells us exactly what it is. All right, guys, stay with us. More to come. Apology or radio dot com.

40:07

What's up there? You got something you want to say, man? What do you think about all this? I think there's a lot of beard in this room.

40:14

And a bit of goat and a bit of goat. Jerry shaved his beard.

40:21

I'm never happy. Ivy said,

40:30

Ivy said he's got the he's got the nappy beard. Yeah. All you guys get a chance to grow the night.

40:38

And I got to put like a perm or something. Get a weave, get a weave, brother. Get a weave. You got to put a weave up in it.

40:45

Yeah. So it's not so bad. I don't know how to try to not get it. Can't be in black. Well, he got some. I know he got now.

40:50

Oh, you know, he's got some lotion on that. Yeah. But yeah, but he would he would. Man, this stuff is banging. But he had the best one so far.

40:58

I'm sorry, guys. Yeah. Oh, no doubt about it. The chocolate. Oh, he chomped it.

41:03

Yeah. For perfection. No, I mean, I mean, chocolate, chocolate. You ever hear that story when he had that big beard?

41:08

He looked like a Muslim and he's walking into that. He's going to work out. And as he's walking in, this Muslim fellow comes out.

41:14

He looks at David. He goes, Salam Aleikum. And David turns to him and says, Jesus Christ is king. And the guy says, you're not a

41:20

Muslim. And David looks at him, says, you're not a Christian. And he got to witness that. That's awesome.

41:25

Now, I love that story. That's awesome. I don't think I knew the Naxos real name till just now.

41:33

That's actually probably true. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm like, who's David? All right. So let's let's move the discussion along now to what we're talking about at the conference.

41:45

Marcus, you kept me up last night. Super late. I'm sorry. No, no, I did. I loved it, man.

41:50

Let's do it again tonight, man. Let's just let's go all out. We don't need sleep. It's like it's the most epic sleepover ever.

41:56

It is. It was awesome. It was. So you were talking about your talk on arts and culture.

42:02

Let's do it, man. All right. Give it to us. So the first talk I'm going to give is on culture.

42:09

And I know like a lot of people are very anti. We don't want to get involved in the culture war sort of thing.

42:16

You can't redeem culture, man. You can't redeem things. You can't. No, no, not at all. Except for time.

42:21

You can redeem time. Only people. Yeah. So. Right. So so what

42:27

I'm going to do is explain why that thinking has happened. And it's because it's been a reduction in the gospel.

42:35

So we're going to talk about how like the modern missionary movement has reduced the gospel just to sin and evangel and redemption.

42:43

So you're, you know, way the master, you told a lie. You're a liar. You stole something. You're a thief. You need

42:49

Jesus. Repent. But the full gospel is creation. God created all things perfectly, told

42:55

Adam to work the garden. He rejected that. He fell. Jesus came, redeemed it.

43:01

And God's restoring the earth. And when you add creation and new creation in there, it gives you a reason to be involved in the culture, to put your hands in the soil and to be gardeners of God's new

43:14

Eden. And so and so that's what I'm going to talk about is specifically in terms of like the cultural mandate and stuff, because I think that like once you figure that out, like the government, theonomy, it is kind of like, oh, yeah,

43:28

OK, well, now, well, that now it makes sense because now now it's more than just getting involved in the government business and education and and in the economy and all that stuff.

43:41

Yeah. And let's be clear, too. Theonomy has said that from day one, it was all about every area of life.

43:48

And when Gary DeMar wrote God and government, the first chapters are on self -government.

43:54

And then it goes to family government. Then it goes to church government. A lot of people think these guys are talking about theonomy.

43:59

They want to go get involved in the government, by which they mean the civil government, the federal government. And that's like all we talk about.

44:05

Well, no, this is across the board. Everything is law. There's law applies to everything. Your moral life, your personal life, family life, church life, business life.

44:14

It's all of it. So, yeah, I want to just to piggyback on what you were saying there, that distinction.

44:20

A lot of people get hung up when they hear us and they think we're only about civil government. Well, no, that's usually where the critics get hung up.

44:26

And so we respond to them on those terms. But this is a much broader vision. Right. Yeah. All authority in heaven and on earth.

44:35

Yes. God's will done on earth as it is in heaven. Or like it's like it says in James, where it says, what's the point of telling someone the gospel if they go away hungry and naked?

44:47

Yeah. Right. So there's a there's application that the gospel needs to be. It's beautiful to hear.

44:54

But it's also has practical application in terms of the works post regeneration.

45:00

Be warmed and filled. Be warmed and filled. Right. Yeah. But that that is the modern view.

45:07

It's like, hey, just preach the gospel, just preach the gospel. And but James says, wait, wait, wait.

45:12

Cloth and feed, too. Yeah. You know, and Ephesians two, eight, nine. Christians love a reformed guys love eight and nine.

45:21

And then it gets to 10 and it says for works that were made before the foundation of the world prepared in advance.

45:27

That's right. So it's it's salvation. For something in time and place, in time and space.

45:35

Yeah. So we're not saved by work, we're saved for work. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Right.

45:41

So that's what I'll be talking about. And I'll apply that to the arts and you know, I'm just real fast to figure out

45:46

I'm going to hear more about what you're saying. But I think one of the destructive forms of thought in our current

45:52

Christian culture that here's what we're saying and just like, oh, what?

45:58

Like it just knocks them back on their heels is that when people think that Jesus saves you for heaven one day, punch your ticket, you go to heaven one day and you lose really the reformed truth of regeneration and new hearts and God and dwelling you.

46:10

Yeah. Calling when you lose that seat, you think, well, it's about heaven one day. So all of this is irrelevant because he saved me for there.

46:18

And so that's why you sound so strange. A culture bringing in the dominion of Christ, his authority. He owns everything.

46:23

And he's in charge of all this. Bring the gospel to every sphere. It sounds funky because people think that Jesus saves us for heaven one day.

46:31

Right. Just simply there. It's not about now redeeming me. But it is about now.

46:36

And we can look to Noah. Yeah. Because Noah was born and Noah, when

46:41

Noah was born, he was named Noah because he will save the people from the curse and toil of their hands.

46:48

Right. And then as soon as the flood is over, God says, no more will

46:54

I curse the ground apart from man because of man. And so it's referencing because of man.

47:01

So in spite that things are terrible, that man is evil, that man is wicked. No more will

47:07

I curse the soil on account of man. And that was several thousand years ago. And what's the result now? You go to grocery stores.

47:13

You don't toil and labor on the ground to get your food. Right. So there's benefits of the reversing of the curse already and not yet.

47:21

Way back then. We're seeing now. You want to you want to celebrate some of that afterwards? I'll take you to Whole Foods. It's epic.

47:27

It's a nice one. It's right down the street. Speaking of.

47:33

Yes. You got a cauliflower on that smoker from Marcus. Cauliflower smoker. Hey, hey, look, are you going to back off of the vegetarian?

47:41

OK, no, no, no, no. For Jesus Christ is sitting in heaven and he's placing death under his feet.

47:48

Yes. Therefore, we should stop killing animal or try to stop killing animals. I'm going to put not a law, not a law.

47:55

I'm not saying it's a sin to eat meat. I'm just saying, hey, let's put let's do less death, man.

48:01

Yeah. Yeah. Well, tonight I'm going to do some death. But after after that, I was like, yeah,

48:07

Marcus, you know, the saying, though, if God wanted people to be vegetarians, he would have made animals out of meat.

48:13

That's true. It tastes so good. Ivy, real fast, man. I want you to I want you to pop in here, dude.

48:19

Tell us about what you're talking about. At the conference. Going to be talking about,

48:26

I think the topic of it is, is things managed tomorrow. I know. Is Jesus pleased with your music?

48:34

You know, so, excuse me. Yeah, there's just a lot of I'm out here from a lot of Christians that this is acceptable worship to God when it comes to music.

48:47

And this is not. And it's always. It's always their opinion, but they don't have scripture to back it up.

48:57

And so since they was brought up with the particular style of music that everybody was like, hey, this is gospel, you know.

49:07

And this is what, you know, I grew up in. This is what I've been taught. And that's it. And then anything outside of that isn't gospel.

49:15

And, you know, all this contemporary music nowadays is just tricks to kind of win the young people over and bring them into the church and stuff.

49:26

And, you know, I've before, of course, I did gospel rap.

49:32

I did gangster rap. And. I one thing that one thing that I had to ask myself and I really was actually

49:41

God to at the same time praying, is this still acceptable to him? Is he with will he still get glory from me rapping, even though I was rapping?

49:52

You know, these wicked lyrics in the world, you know, can he be praised through this medium that I realized that after, you know, research and praying that in scripture?

50:05

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there's different styles of songs in the book of Psalms, you know, songs of distress, songs of victory, triumph, you name it.

50:19

I mean, war songs. Yeah. War songs. Disrapt by David. You know, all that good stuff.

50:25

So so there's some other stuff I'm going to I'm going to, you know, address.

50:32

I think if I speak a little bit too much on it, it'll be cutting into my notes. So you don't want to steal your own thunder.

50:39

Yeah. You know, yeah, yeah. I'll just go ahead and wait on wait on that. But that's pretty much what what what

50:46

I'll be trying to tackle and to just just challenge people on how they view music and whatnot, even contemporary music, the music that they think is not pleasing to God and whatnot.

51:00

And hopefully they'll they'll see it with a different perspective. Yeah. We haven't talked about you.

51:06

Haven't got a chance to do your debating Dillahunty dot com. Yeah. Where where's where can people get your stuff?

51:12

They can go to if Marcus Pidman is still on his game, they can go to Ivy Connerly, just Ivy, C -O -N -E -R -L -Y dot com.

51:23

And yeah, I'm just at Ivy C -O -N -E -R -L -Y.

51:30

That's my Twitter. And but but yeah, if they want to, you know, look up some stuff to just Google that same same name and YouTube and I'm on Spotify, iTunes,

51:45

Amazon, MP3, all those places. So get debating Dillahunty dot com and listen to the end credits because we have a good friend,

51:53

Ivy Connerly. And you also did that. You did the music for How to Answer the Fool. Sure did.

51:58

Sure did. I loved it. Yeah. He also did the sound for How to Answer the Fool. It was great, you know, during the filming, because Ivy was new at this at his trade back then.

52:07

And he was neglecting his duty because he was listening to the conversation. He says, man, I can't wait to get back to California and use this on the street.

52:13

I love it. It was so nice seeing him again. And that's all I feel is, man, the love in this room. Yeah. How people cannot get this theology.

52:20

I just don't get because I think it just shows the love of the Lord that he's rules over everything. Yeah. Praise God.

52:25

Yeah. Yeah. All right. I'll be right back, guys. Apology Radio dot com. Stay with us. Don't forget that you get the apology at church app on Google Play or the

52:34

Apple Store. Yeah, come on.

53:04

Chocolate knocks. Let's get it. Commentaries application necessary.

53:22

Yes, sir. All 66 books and one. I guess that's why Sims on the run. That's Ivy Connerly, all three commentaries.

53:29

Ninety five pieces. We don't get it. OK, hey,

53:35

I want to say something that's sort of like off away from the theonomy discussion, but in a sense, it's it's there.

53:41

It aims at it. You're missing out if you're not in Christ. You're missing out just on the love, the fellowship, the joy.

53:53

You know, I talked to I did a film for a documentary last week, and so I'm sitting with this this woman who's abandoned faith and and and she just describing her experience in church.

54:08

She's like, you know, is an awful experience. And it was just awful. I had no joy and no happiness.

54:13

And he's just sort of just, you know, filling it up like, you know. And she's just mad at God. She hates God, you know, obviously.

54:20

And there's one thing I said to her in the thing. I don't know if it actually ended up in documentary, but I said, you know, it's amazing just to show how subjective experience is such a bad test for truth.

54:29

I said, my my being joined to Christ and knowing him has transferred my heart from darkness.

54:36

Now I have joy and love and peace and I have real delight in God. My life is just transformed, you know.

54:43

And you think about the fellowship that we have. Right. Just at my house and just all that's going on. You know, there's a depth there and a joy that is just indescribable.

54:54

You know, instant family. Right. And that's the thing that's supernatural, right? About Christ and being in Christ is that you don't know a person completely, but you that you have the same faith and same savior, different color, different background, different upbringing.

55:11

And yet you have faith in this Messiah joins you together in this mystical way that is it's hard to describe.

55:21

So as much as we say, atheists, you can't know anything and your worldview is kaput and you are a fool and everything else.

55:28

And there's a sidebar to that. And that is that you're missing out, dude. Like you're missing out on life. That is so true.

55:34

I wanted to say this, that like, you know, you run across those Christians that say, well,

55:39

I don't necessarily have to go to church. You know, I could read my Bible at the house. I can, you know, play gospel songs at the house.

55:47

So I don't really need to go to church. And a lot of them have been, quote unquote, you know, church hurt, you know, from people in the church.

55:56

Of course, that's just, you know, done with it. But anyway, bad experiences. And at the same time,

56:01

I always challenge people. I say, you know, you need to you need to still be connected, of course, to a body because God died for these people to not just you.

56:13

So so well. And at the same time, these are the people that you're going to be spending eternity with for the most part.

56:22

So it's like, why not spend, you know, time fellowshiping with them now?

56:28

You know, true, true Christians, you know, and like you said, because there's so much joy they're missing out.

56:34

They're missing out on the on the party, you know, on the, you know, just. Yeah, man. So I mean, that's that's something

56:40

I always try to challenge people on, which is why we'd like to share Jeff's address for the party tonight. It's already going to be full enough.

56:48

We got like like 30, 35 or 40 people coming over. I mean, it's getting pretty epic.

56:53

You got Marcus, Ivy, Cy, Joel, me, Luke, Jerry. You got

56:58

Joy's coming. You got Dr. White's coming. I can't even think right now.

57:05

Lindsey Brooks from apologetics .com is coming. Rich Piers.

57:11

I mean, party at my place. Hey, this is also brilliant, by the way.

57:18

We're actually having the party before the conference. Yeah. Everybody wants to have the party when everything's all over with.

57:23

But when you do that, you're wiped out. You're tired of it. You want to go home. Hey, this was smart, man. Get together. Have the party first.

57:30

And then now let's get to work. We've got the joy, the happiness and the love built up. I don't like using the word love like that, but I do.

57:36

It's not an emotion. It's not an emotion. Anyway, yeah, you feel it. You get together.

57:42

Yes. But now, OK, let's not go to our mission. Yeah. So how do you feel about that,

57:48

Bear? I'm just I'm just soaking this all in right now. Hey, Marcus, you're teaching Sunday at Apology of Church, too, right?

57:54

I am. Is it is it going to be different? So here's I was talking to my. Are you going to come in with a little flask of water and you just can walk by all our babies?

58:02

You'd be like, I will, if you want me, if you let me to. Marcus walks by all the babies in church. He's like flicking one.

58:07

I'm not an elder, so I can't distribute the sacraments. But if you bless it, I'll help you out in any way you want, brother.

58:15

No, no. So I was talking to my pastor. I was like, I want to talk about this at Apology of Church. And he said conferences are for ideas.

58:24

Sunday is for the gospel. So I'll just be preaching the gospel. So, yeah, I mean, I like that.

58:30

But at the same time, there's no difference. The ideas are from the gospel. I mean, yeah,

58:36

I mean, that's very true. You're teaching him all things he commanded us. That's the gospel is the gospel of the kingdom of God.

58:43

We often forget that. Boom. It's the whole package. Yeah. Right. So don't water it down to a little bit of it.

58:49

I'm not saying that's what you're doing. No, no, no, no. I think it was a broader context. I understand. Don't come up with something new just for this

58:56

Sunday. Yeah. Just preach the right. Right. And we try to do that too much. Yeah. I try to be clever and new and fresh.

59:02

And that's what I meant by that solid stuff over and over again. Yeah, absolutely. I wish we'd do that all the time.

59:08

Yeah. We we've got a whole lot of people trying to be clever that aren't clever about things they don't need to be clever about.

59:16

And, you know, you're talking to me. Yeah, man, that was I'm a lover. That was really clever. I'm just talking about the church in general.

59:22

Yes, yes. Let alone the world in general. Yeah, I mean, it really is. Just get down to the basics and the solid meat.

59:28

You know, that's where the good stuff's at. Yeah. Amen. This song is just it's just bringing it's bringing the mood into a good place,

59:37

Marcus. It's going to be fun, man. So Thursday night, which is we'll put this podcast up tonight,

59:45

Thursday night. I'm speaking, Joel speaking.

59:51

So I'm going to talk about why are we here? And I'm going to talk about two things, the kingdom of Christ and the law of God. And Joel, you're talking about what your talk title talk is entitled.

01:00:02

Still no other standard. Still no other standard. And then right after that, we're going to have an opportunity to do

01:00:07

Q &A. So if you're coming in, you get a chance to write down a question and we'll hopefully get through your questions.

01:00:13

I understand there's some hot shots coming that have come to try to throw some curve. Well, I think there are people coming that are on the other side of the whole discussion.

01:00:20

You know, the law is completely irrelevant and take us to task. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's what moderators are for.

01:00:27

Yes. That brings something out to me. There's going to be some hot shots. OK, asking some questions. Where were they? Why is this the first debate?

01:00:33

We talked about that a little bit in the break. Where have they been? And you know what my question is after this debate, where have they gone?

01:00:40

Because they're going to be taking potshots. But I doubt anybody's going to step up and be the next person to debate this. Where have they been?

01:00:45

Where have they gone? Come on. Let's talk about it, brothers. Yeah. And let's honor Christ when we do it. Let's not be jerks about it.

01:00:50

Because the thing that I see, the opposition to this, to theonomy, it's not an opposition to theonomy. It's opposition to theonomists.

01:00:57

Personalities. Because there are jerks out there. Yeah. You know, and I tell people every once in a while on Facebook, you know, to purge my friends list.

01:01:03

Everyone's a Calvinist. Just not all of them know it yet. You know, and I say same thing with theonomy. All Christians and like Joel said, all people are theonomists.

01:01:10

Some people just don't know it yet. Yeah. And yeah. And in the end, too, on this discussion, as within the Christian framework and realm, the body, you're either a theonomist or you're a heretic.

01:01:23

That's it. Because because what does theonomy mean? Theos namos, God's law. So if someone says, I don't believe in theonomy, then well, then you're a heretic.

01:01:31

It's a question of how consistent you are with scripture on this question. That's all it is. Be right back, guys.

01:01:37

Apology Radio dot com. Apology Radio will be right back.

01:02:00

Cops go bang in the name of the law, bro. Hopping out with things to put holes in your jawbones.

01:02:05

Hot zone may not blame slang in the same vein. A poor father's holler through their mics. I've got no snot nose kid.

01:02:12

No particular gang affiliate. Pop those beats in styles. I got a myriad killing it.

01:02:17

Spot goes wild while I don't. Romans three twenty eight. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

01:02:26

Or is God the God of the Jews only? Or is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes. Of Gentiles also.

01:02:34

Since God is one who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith?

01:02:43

By no means. On the contrary, we uphold the law. So we got to tell our joke now, because now that we're videoing it,

01:02:52

I know people are like, what are they? And Joel looked over to I saw his eyes and I looked over at you. Let me tell it. You tell it.

01:02:57

OK, so we had we were trying to go. We were going through Romans at church a couple of years ago and we had

01:03:02

Romans read by Max McLean. We were handing out. And so on that part, he was like, yes.

01:03:08

When he reads it, he's like he's got that wonderful voice. He's like he's like, is God not the

01:03:14

God of Gentiles also? He goes, yes, I've been. That's like, yeah,

01:03:22

I've been. So I'm going to get that verse. We just die. So we would be on like road trips and Luke would be in front of me and I would get to his ear and I'd be like, yeah,

01:03:31

I did. Is the guy Jewish? McLean?

01:03:37

He's British. He's British. He's like a British actor. Yeah, but I wondered why he would just whisper off. Oh, yes. Of the

01:03:42

Gentiles. Also, he's like, oh, not really. I'll say it because it says it. That's my conspiracy theory.

01:03:50

Read too much into it. You know, I want to do an audio Bible. Joel McDermott, I tell you that to show that we did with Andre that ATS has over 200 ,000 downloads.

01:03:58

Yeah, my favorite part of the show is Joel's ad. Baron Baron down the music. Joel's rock and roll hip thrust music.

01:04:05

Baron Baron down the narrow. I'd listen to the Bible 24 seven if Joel was reading. Oh, but I mean, it's the voice. It was cool.

01:04:10

Restoring America one county at a time. But yeah, that was

01:04:15

David's doing. No, I love it. I didn't pick the music. I agree when they when you guys said I did not do the hip thrust.

01:04:22

He was wearing nothing but a constitution, though. Oh, you've obviously not read the book.

01:04:34

All right, so we're back. Hey, I'm excited. Let I let

01:04:39

OK, I do want to do this as sort of an inoculation for what's coming, doing the show and thinking about what's coming forward.

01:04:49

I want to touch for a second to emphasize because we will hear us emphasizing

01:04:55

Christ as a standard. God's law is a standard. Let's let's emphasize for a moment what we're not saying.

01:05:02

That's important. Yeah. OK. So as a banner over it, ready? Justification by faith alone in Christ alone.

01:05:08

Apart from any work of law. Add anything to it's a bump.

01:05:14

It's anathema. And any work of law to faith in order for justification before God, apart from Christ's righteousness, anathema.

01:05:22

OK. Law cannot save. So what are we not saying?

01:05:28

Because I have this phrase running through my head, Joel, and it's civil Judaizers.

01:05:34

OK, we've been called Judaizers by many. OK. And so so what are we not saying? Well, I think you just put it that way.

01:05:42

We are not saying that the law is an agent in our salvation in any way, shape or form.

01:05:47

As far as our justification is concerned. Yeah, it is the standard by which God sanctifies us to behave.

01:05:53

It is what we read to learn what sanctification looks like. It's what we read to learn how we are to establish equity among people.

01:06:04

So it's God's standard of living in all areas of life. But it's not what we're saved by. And I think we hit on this earlier when

01:06:10

Marcus did the Ephesians two passage. You know, we affirm that totally. I mean, there's never been any denial.

01:06:16

And this is why I almost lose patience on having to do this because we've written this in our books from the very first book.

01:06:24

Yeah, it's been repeated. And people still what they did is they go find somewhere where we said something that can be construed out of context where it sounds like we might have said we're justified by works or something remotely possible like that.

01:06:36

And they pull that. Oh, look at this. Here's what they said. And that's just it's just dishonest. Yeah, because if you go back and read the rest of the book and the rest of context in the beginning, it's obviously upfront.

01:06:46

That we were just we believe in traditional reform theology. We just take the the we take what reform people used to teach about the law and actually begin to want to apply it and exegete it.

01:06:59

So, yeah, what we're not saying is that we're saved by works in any way. Absolutely not. It's Ephesians two is clear on the relationship between the role that works play in your salvation.

01:07:08

Yeah. And it is you are saved unto good works, which God has before prepared that we walk in.

01:07:15

So very good. And yeah, that what? And another thing is people use the word

01:07:21

Judaizing in different ways. And that needs to be talked about as well. You know, when we've got time. OK, well, we will in just a moment.

01:07:28

All right. Be right back, guys. Apology Radio dot com. That's where you get us. Share an episode. Excited to meet some of you guys for the first time at GDC conference.

01:07:37

We'll see you there. Apology Radio will be right.

01:07:44

What's up, y 'all? Back in Apology Radio, get us an apology, a radio dot com. Head over to our major sponsor.

01:07:52

The American Vision. American Vision dot org. We give you guys money.

01:08:01

You do. And talk with Chad. Go pick up some books, some materials, some

01:08:08

MP3s, great stuff. A couple of movies on there, actually from the

01:08:14

Pittman. Yes, the Pittman. There are Marcus Pinkman. Yep. Ah, listen,

01:08:21

I take credit for that one. Arizona looks like an episode of Breaking Bad, doesn't it? Yeah, it looks like New Mexico.

01:08:26

Oh, I know. It does. I know. It's awesome. We were watching Better Call Saul the other night and I was like, that looks like my backyard almost.

01:08:31

Yeah, it absolutely does. Yeah, it's fantastic. Y 'all call these things yards? Yeah, no, no. Something like that.

01:08:37

Dirt, rocks. OK, so you got Marcus Pinkman and Jeff TenBerg and Durban Kate. Durban Kate.

01:08:43

Well, no, no, it's funny. And Joel McDurbin. Well, here's what's funny. For some reason, in conversations with like pre -sub stuff, people were like Syton, Durban Kate or something like that.

01:08:52

They like to put us together. That was me as well. Yeah. And then for you, I hear people call and they'll they'll say, oh, Joel McDurbin like is that to get would do things.

01:09:00

Yeah. Yeah. Joel Durbin. Jeff Durbin and Joel McDurbin. All right.

01:09:08

Marcus Pinkman. Yes. Talk about your second talk.

01:09:13

Yeah. So the second talk is going to continue from the first talk on the importance of culture, but it's going to apply specifically to arts.

01:09:22

And we're going to look at the building of the temple. And we're going to see how Bezalel was gifted with intelligence and skill and workmanship and and the

01:09:31

Holy Spirit. And we're going to break those down and we're going to show what a a godly artist, the attributes of a godly artist.

01:09:41

And we're going to look at some great stuff regarding like film criticism and and just the need of of of people to be skillful in their art and stuff.

01:09:53

And we're going to all bring this into the temple worship and show how arts is labor for rest.

01:10:03

And so that's what it's going to be. So, yeah. Yeah. Pinkman. Yeah. It's going to be awesome.

01:10:10

Yeah. Yeah. You need to stop that right now or it's going to get branded. Don't start using the

01:10:16

B word. Yeah. I won't use that one, bro. Bro. Yeah. Pinkman's.

01:10:21

Yeah. B word. Yeah. What he was made for. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

01:10:27

OK. Here's his culture. Culture. Yo, Dr. White. Culture. That's right.

01:10:37

All right. So, Ivy. Yes, sir. I'd love I'd love it if you gave us some bars.

01:10:45

Some bars. All right. As long as there's people here, that's not opposed to rap music.

01:10:51

I'm OK with that. Joel, you can be nice. I never said that.

01:10:57

That's not that I was just giving him an idea. Yeah. That's right. So that's right.

01:11:03

What's that? So so he he may even be rapping actually on on something.

01:11:10

Really? Well, no, we are. We're going to collaborate. That'd be good. Yeah. Yeah. I can't even rap

01:11:16

Christmas presents very well. All you need is a hip thrust and it's all good. Yeah.

01:11:24

Spit a verse from an upcoming album coming out playing with some titles, so don't really have a title yet.

01:11:33

But I guess this verse came out of what was inspired by, of course, scripture,

01:11:42

Ephesians two and one. And it goes like this. It says it says, yeah.

01:11:52

See me laid in the ground in that deep sleep. Of course not. All you see is what's on top of me.

01:11:58

Buried in liquor bottles swallowed up by idols labels and titles murder for rivals, the epitome of prideful boxed in the selfishness, depending on independence, chained down to defiance, soaked in bitterness.

01:12:10

The fear is tremendous. The guilt looks endless. Here lies the criminal in critical condition.

01:12:16

Showering lies made the mud seek me deeper in my location. Fornication was the keeper.

01:12:22

Hypocrisy, false humility teacher. Headphones on blast, entertaining deceivers.

01:12:28

Yeah. But then he called my name. Yes. Predestinated before the world was dated.

01:12:33

I made it resuscitated me out of that dark grave. Ain't it so grand just to be on land?

01:12:40

Now I stand in a lit up graveyard garden. Now I got a new heart. Tin man was hardened.

01:12:47

But this ain't Oz. It was all God that made me alive with a beautiful vine. Yeah. Nice.

01:12:54

Yeah. That was the highlight right there. Whoo. Is that going to be on Crown Rights Media? No, that's with him.

01:13:00

That's him. No. Yeah. Forget that. Forget the sound, man. I don't have the memory to rap. That's incredible.

01:13:06

Hey, babe, what's up? I'm I'm I'm doing the show right now. I love you.

01:13:12

She's been calling me and just she. Hey, Joel, Joel, my wife wants to know about that. She needs to know about the meat again.

01:13:18

Is it on or off? He says she says, are you sure you want her to turn it on right now? Yes. OK. He says yes.

01:13:24

Nail it. He says he does not want to destroy your beautiful one. Seventy one.

01:13:30

One seventy, babe. So. All right.

01:13:39

Welcome back. We're back. We're not done. Jojo's like, I'm out. How much more we got?

01:13:46

Just he's like, how long is this show? Five minutes.

01:13:52

Right. Hey, Jamie, five minutes. All right. All right. Jamie is not even paying attention. He's talking to Gil. All right.

01:13:57

So, Joel, while we have you in the studio, let's do this. This would be good. Perfect. OK, Joel, I want you to think real fast about three or four books people should get on a discussion of theonomy.

01:14:09

Si, two, three or four books on presuppositional apologetics. How about some movies? And then and then and then you.

01:14:16

I want I want you guys to give me some books on arts, culture, something with the theology of culture, arts.

01:14:22

OK, so ready. We'll start over here. You think about it. Hold on. Before we do that, since we're talking about Breaking Bad, J -Man, did you start it yet?

01:14:29

I have not. Oh, forget it. Never mind. Forget it. Just never mind. I was so excited. How embarrassing.

01:14:35

I'm sorry. I thought you were looking awfully awake. OK, all right. So let's move our way around.

01:14:41

Joel, you start. Someone wants to learn about theonomy. Where do they go? Well, I mean, that's tough. I mean, if you're talking about theonomy proper, just the study of the law itself.

01:14:50

Obviously, you got to read Bonson. So, I mean, I would actually I would start with Rush Duney's book,

01:14:55

Law and Liberty. Law and Liberty. That's a kind of a layman's level. Get you in. Get you involved. What's your appetite? Then you want to move on a little bit more stuff.

01:15:03

You want to read Theonomy and Christian Ethics by Bonson or maybe even the Institutes of Biblical Law by Rush Duney.

01:15:10

OK, but at that point, I mean, you really need to start reading Gary Norton's commentaries, and that's a lifelong project for most people.

01:15:16

So but but I would also say it's a three or four. So I'll give you one more. You've got to read that.

01:15:22

You may prosper by Ray Sutton. That that's the one that ties it all together. Theologically, that gives you a definition of covenant, covenant derived from biblical theology and puts theonomy within that framework.

01:15:34

OK, and so that is the absolute must book. OK, thanks, Joel. You bet. Cy, someone's just getting into learning about how to reason with unbelievers, bring the gospel to them.

01:15:45

What do you want to look at? Who is this Greg Bonson of who you speak? No, I would definitely pick up his book,

01:15:52

Presuppositional Apologetics, Stated and Defended, his book, Always Ready as well. That's by Greg Bonson.

01:15:57

And for a starter, I really love Jason Lyle's book, The Ultimate Proof of Creation. Now, I learn more, you know, through audio visual means.

01:16:05

So I'd say go to proof that God exists or go to the multimedia page. You could see it in action. But if you want the nuts and bolts, pick up stuff by Van Til, Bonson, like I say,

01:16:12

Jason Lyle, Mike Robinson's another fellow writes a lot on Presupp. And yeah, and check out a lot of your videos on YouTube as well for people like to learn that way.

01:16:19

Right on. And what about like How to Answer the Fool? I heard about that film. Is that a good film? It's a movie called

01:16:25

There's a film out there. Yeah, it's a movie called How to Answer the Fool. Is there like a companion piece that just came out? There is. It's called Debating Dillahunty.

01:16:31

Where can they get that? Proof that God exists. Debating Dillahunty .com

01:16:36

Debating Dillahunty .com I think the wheels just came off. All right.

01:16:43

So you guys, I want to hear Ivy, Marcus Pinkman. All right.

01:16:50

In regards to arts and arts and culture or just the basic theology of this, specifically

01:16:55

Francis Schaeffer, How Then Shall We Live is really good. Goes through art history. OK, and then his book,

01:17:01

Art in the Bible is fantastic. OK, I just started reading. Philip Riken has a really great book who's actually he's not a theonomist, is he?

01:17:12

No. OK. His book is called Recovering the Arts. Well, I should say yes, because everyone's a theonomist.

01:17:19

Right. That's right. But right. I hear you. So it's called Arts for God's Sake. Art for God's Sake.

01:17:26

Recovering the Arts. It's fantastic. OK, really good. Pretty much Schaeffer view of the arts, too. And also

01:17:32

I'm really like I know I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but a culture making by Andy Crouch.

01:17:39

Is it Andy Crouch? Andy something? I forget. That's right. Yeah. Andy Crouch. Really good. I guess a lot of people don't like some of the stuff he says, but the book so far, thumbs up.

01:17:49

Yeah. So, yeah, there you go. That's OK. Ivy, some favorites of really one comes to mind right now that I've read, which is

01:18:00

I like Wordsmithy by Doug Wilson, even though it really doesn't, you know, talk about arts as far as music and all that good stuff.

01:18:14

But it helped me out as a writer and to understand.

01:18:20

Well, there's a point I'm going to be actually using on Saturday out of Wordsmithy that really helped me see music even in a different light.

01:18:34

So that book has a lot of insights on just how you know, you know, there's different different ways you can, you know, write stuff, not just for authors and books, but just as for musicians as well, even even though it's not specific in that book for people who write music, but just, you know, it it really, really helped me out a lot, especially on my last record and even this record coming out soon.

01:19:04

So I would I would suggest people. Yeah, I love that book. And yes, every time

01:19:09

I read Wilson, I love him more and more. And sometimes I read him and I'm like upset that I I don't know enough and that there's so much

01:19:17

I'm missing. Yeah. You know, I mean, by inspiration. Yeah. Like I listen to Joel sometimes and I hear him talking about history and it inspires me to work harder.

01:19:28

Like I need to know I need to work harder. I need to know more. And when I read Wilson, same thing. I'm like,

01:19:33

I'm a putz, like I'm not working hard enough. Like I have to be a better artist with my words. Yeah. Like, you know,

01:19:38

I have to I have to I have to do this to the glory of God better than I am. You know, and wordsmithing was like that.

01:19:44

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say that wordsmithing has a lot of that in there. It's challenging people to like kind of have their own formula.

01:19:52

Yeah. You know, and being good at it to where when you read if it's, you know, say,

01:19:59

Joel, once you read one of his books, you know, you you could tell after a while without even, you know, seeing his name.

01:20:06

Who wrote it? Because, you know, you if you read, you know, many of his books, you'll see his own personality, kind of style.

01:20:15

Yeah. That style of just writing. So so that's what helped me out so much as an artist reading that.

01:20:21

And it's like, wow, you know, there's this formula that only I have. So when people, you know, even if they just read my lyrics and saw how, you know, it was, you know, structured and composed, they could say, oh, that's

01:20:34

Ivy without even playing the record. You know, something like that. So a lot of people watch my films, you know, and afterwards, they'll say too bad

01:20:41

Hitchens is dead. That's what they do. Bad Hitchens is that he would eat up this argument. I said, really? Collision.

01:20:46

And we were just talking about this in the break. And what a fantastic movie is. Doug Wilson and Christopher Hitchens. You want to see

01:20:52

Christopher Hitchens run into a presupposition. Let's watch Collision. Check that out, because it's just he gave up.

01:20:59

It points he just he would just go, oh, just for the record, that is my favorite documentary ever made.

01:21:06

Me too. Collision, by far. I used to show that once a month in the hospital I was at to all these people coming in and they were in awe of it.

01:21:14

Marcus, you're fired. I will gladly. Oh, wait. No, sorry. Besides debating

01:21:19

Delahunty. No, Marcus, I just want to say my favorite part of Collision, which is one of my favorite documentaries, too, is the one part that we can't see on the air.

01:21:30

You know what I'm talking about? I do. I do. That was answering a fool according to his folly. Scoobalong.

01:21:35

Scoobalong happened. Epic level. Step into his worldview, stepped into his worldview and ate his lunch and pulled his shorts down.

01:21:44

Yeah. All right, guys, this was awesome. Time for brisket.

01:21:50

It's time for barbecue. All right, guys, we'll see you at the conference. Apology radio dot com is where you get us for more episodes.

01:21:57

GGC conference that orgs, we get more tickets. We'll see you guys in Tempe, Arizona, Thursday, Friday for the conference.

01:22:04

for Joel. Pray for JD. Pray for the speakers. Catch you guys next time. Peace.