Rebuttal Period: Does Belief in the Trinity Necessitate Shirk?

Constantine, the Council of Micea, and the Early Christian Belief in the Trinity

Since it was the last thing stated, Constantine forced nothing on the Council of Micea. Anyone familiar with history knows the fact that those who came to the Council of Micea were those who had survived the greatest Roman persecution from the Roman state in the preceding three decades before that time.

There were people there without limbs, without eyes, scars upon their bodies because they refused to abandon the faith in Jesus Christ. And are you seriously going to tell me that only 13 years later they're going to allow a pagan to come in and change their faith and they're going to go, oh, sounds good to me.

No. History tells, J. N. D. Kelly does not say that, by the way. That is a misreading even of J. N. D. Kelly. The term was used to identify exactly what was being said against the Arians. I never said that the Doctrine of Trinity only became known six centuries after the time of Christ.

I said that six centuries after the time of Christ it was well known. It was believed in from the beginning. Read the writings of Ignatius, the martyr bishop of Antioch as he was going to Rome wherein he writes seven letters and over ten times in those letters identifies Jesus Christ as his God.

Look at the archaeological find within the past two years in Israel where they have discovered one of the earliest Christian churches and in the mosaic on the floor in memory of our God, Jesus Christ.

It is simply historically naive and utterly inaccurate to say anything other than that. But I want to remind you about why we are here this evening. We just had 15 minutes. I was told that I didn't address any of those texts.

The Qur'an, Surah 5, and the Question of the Trinity

Well, you know what? I think I can allow you, the audience, to find out whether I did or didn't. You can make that judgment for yourself. But in 15 minutes, did we hear anything from the Qur 'an that addressed the issue of being in person?

Did we hear anything from the Qur 'an that said that we recognize there is but one God? We were told, oh, Surah 5 is not about the Trinity. Oh, okay. Then how do you know any of the other ones are about the Trinity?

It's talking about worshiping Jesus. Who is it about? Who did Muhammad run into that it's relevant for Surah 5, verses 116 -117 to reveal? Who? Hopefully we'll find out this evening. Adnan proved that the Bible teaches that the Father is to be worshiped.

And, of course, all Christians believe exactly that. He then assumes Unitarianism and ignores the rest of the New Testament. I'd like to show you where Adnan has done this. Did you remember when he quoted from John 8, verse 54?

He quoted John 8, verse 54. Jesus replied, if I glorify myself, my glory is worthless. The one who glorifies me, and by the way, the Old Testament says only God is to be glorified. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you people say He is our God.

You go, oh, see, see, that means it's only the Father in the Old Testament. If I treated the Qur 'an in that way, ignoring what comes before and after and what was going on, you'd have reason to be upset with me.

Because what is the rest of John chapter 8 about? What's about to happen? Jesus has said just before this, unless you believe that, I am, then a name used of Yahweh in the Old Testament, especially in regards to prophecy in Isaiah 43, 10, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

Do you believe that Jesus is the I am? Jesus said, unless you do, you will die in your sins. He had said that. The Jews say, who do you make yourself out to be? Jesus starts talking about the unity that exists between He and the Father, the Father's testimony to Him.

And within a matter of two or three sentences from the text that Adnan quoted, I'll read the rest of it, verse 55. Yet you do not know Him, but I know Him. If I were to say that I do not know Him, I would be a liar like you.

But I do know Him and I obey His teaching. Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day.

He saw it and was glad.

Adnan, when did Abraham see the day of Jesus? Then the Judeans replied, you are not yet 50 years old. Have you seen Abraham? Jesus said to them, I tell you the solemn truth. Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, Ego, I, me, I, am.

And you know what the Jews did? They picked up stones to stone him. Because they knew exactly what he was claiming. They knew the name of their God. They knew he was claiming timeless existence to exist before Abraham.

He had already said, anyone who keeps my word will never taste death. No mere Azul, no mere prophet ever said things that Jesus said. So if you are going to accept John 8 .54 as being accurate, you have got to accept John 8 .58 too.

And it testifies clearly to the deity of Christ. Yes, I did say that Ego, I, me, identifies Jesus as Yahweh, because Yahweh is identified by those words in the Old Testament. But that does not make Him the Father.

I clearly said in my opening statement, we distinguish clearly between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, because the Bible does. But the fact that the Bible, taken as a whole, uses that one divine name of Father, Son, and Spirit, is the reason we are biblical Trinitarians.

The one name refers to the being of God. Three persons share it. That is what the doctrine of the Trinity is all about.

Then we had John chapter 17.

It said, well, you quote Augustine. All I quote Augustine for was to point out the rather obvious fact that there had already been great discussions of the doctrine of the Trinity. There wasn't some mysterious thing in the 6th century.

For hundreds of years, an accurate doctrine of the Trinity was available. If Adnan can stand up here and use terms like homoousius and hupostasis,.

Why couldn't the Quran?

If you want to talk to the Christians, why not use their language? Because the writer of the Quran had never read the Bible. That's why he wasn't aware of these things. That's why he wants to assume this, but in a debate you have to prove it, not just assert it.

So where are the Quranic texts that demonstrate an accurate knowledge of the doctrine of the Trinity?

I haven't found them.

I haven't heard it yet. And now both of us are getting to having had 45 minutes worth of your time.

Now, he went to John chapter 17,.

But again, only read a small portion. And that's always what happens. Yes, Jesus referred to the Father as the only true God. How else could it be? We're monotheists. Jesus has become incarnate. He has entered into human flesh.

Look at the Karmic Christian, Philippians 2, 5 -11. It is an early hymn of the Christian church. Probably from within the first decade of the Christian church, they're singing hymns to Christ as God. And what does Philippians 2, 5 -11 tell us?

It tells us that Christ did not consider the equality he had with the Father something to be held on to at all costs, but he laid that equality aside, voluntarily made himself of no reputation, became obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross.

And because of that, God the Father highly exalted him and gave him the name which is above every name, that the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess all the glory of God the Father.

That was the primitive belief of the Christians. That's not something that Constantine came up with. That is a hymn of the early church. And here in John chapter 17, he stopped before he should have, because he did mention, of course, the fact that Jesus says there's only one true God.

There is only one true God. But then what else did he say? Have you ever read beyond that?

Those of you who've used this text,.

Do you ever go into verses 4 and following and listen to what it says? I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. Now listen to this. My friends, my Muslim friends, look me in the eye and tell me that a resul or a prophet could ever say these words.

And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

Did Moses ever say that?

Did David ever say that?

Did Abraham ever say that?

Jesus says, glorify me.

What does the book of Isaiah say?

Glory only belongs to Yahweh. Only he is to be glorified. Only he is to be worshipped. Jesus says, glorify me at your side with the glory that I shared with you in eternity past.

What prophet would ever say those words?

That is why the standard approach to these issues in modern Islam is to deny that Jesus ever said these things by alleging corruption of the biblical text. But isn't it interesting? Adnan hasn't said anything about corruption of the biblical text this evening.

He's quoted a number of texts. If they have come down to us accurately, and they're in the very same papyri manuscripts in the 2nd century that all the rest of this is in, then Jesus said these words.

And you need to explain to me,.

What did Jesus mean?

How could Jesus say this? How could verse 3 even say that eternal life is to know two persons?

Can you imagine Moses saying that?

This is eternal life, that you know Moses. No, we instinctively know that no mere creature, no mere human being.

Can say those words.

But Jesus says them.

Jesus says, Ego, I am. Remember in the garden when the soldiers were coming to take Jesus? He says, who are you seeking? They say, Jesus of Nazarene.

And Jesus says, Ego, I am.

And the Gospel of John tells us,.

They fell back upon the ground. Why do soldiers fall back upon the ground?

When someone simply says, I am.

And the Gospel of John tells us. That's why when Jesus rises from the dead,.

Thomas the Apostle,.

When Jesus invites him to touch him, see that it is truly him, the Spirit has not flesh and bones to see me out, Thomas doesn't even have to. Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God. Now if Jesus was just an Apostle, if Jesus is just a Resul of Allah, and someone bows down before you and says, My Lord and my God, what is your duty?

Don't do that. When people try to bow down and worship the Apostles,.

What do they say?

Don't do that. Worship only God. When John tried to bow down and worship the angels, what does he do? Don't do that. Worship only God. Thomas bows down before Jesus and says,.

My Lord and my God.

And Thomas says,.

Because you've seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed.

He saw his face.

Is that what Amir Rezul does?

Yes, the New Testament testimony is very clear. Paul identifies him as our Lord and God in 2 Peter 1 .1 and Titus 2 .13. Our Lord and our God. The very same language Ignatius would use in A .D. 108. Constantine had nothing to do with such things.

Nothing. He describes our Lord and our God. He describes the Creator of all things. When Paul wrote to the Colossians, who were beginning to be infected by Proto-Gnosticism, he described Jesus Christ.

He said,.

For by Him were all things made, whether in heaven or on earth, visible or invisible, or principalities, powers, thrones, dominions. All things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things and in Him all things consist or hold together.

That means, my friends, that as you sit here this evening,.

You're borrowing His air.

Every beat of your heart, every breath you take, comes from His hand. That's why you can't be neutral.

About who Jesus Christ is.

That's the testimony of the New Testament. That's the consistent testimony of the New Testament. From Matthew to Revelation, He's Lord, kurios, the very word used for Yahweh in the Greek Septuagint. He's the Lord of the Sabbath.

He's the Son of Man from the book of Daniel, who is worshipped by His followers, the Ancient One. He's the Creator of all things. He's worshipped, and He accepts the worship of those who bow down before Him.

The Trinity, the Shema, and the Biblical Distinction Between Being and Persons

So,.

Tonight's debate is not supposed to be.

On the doctrine of the Trinity. But Adnan has spent most of his time addressing that particular issue.

Alright.

Be glad to respond. Because the main question of tonight's debate has yet to be answered. We know what the doctrine of the Trinity is. It starts with the assertion of the Shema.

Shema Yisrael.

Yahweh Eloheinu. Yahweh Echad.

One God. Echad. The very same term that you have in Surah 112. Is it not?

Yes.

That's where we start. But we recognize that God's being.

Is so infinite, so unlimited,.

That it can,.

In divine revelation, be shared by three divine persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. We associate no one with the being of God. We do not divide our worship.

The simple fact of the matter is,.

The scriptures that existed, that your own Quran says were Natzal, they were sent down by God. Those scriptures, which the author of the Quran does not seem to show any familiarity with, taught these things long before Muhammad came along.

And I say to you, the Quran has not been shown this evening to accurately identify the doctrine of the Trinity. And if you want to say, well, when it says three,.

You know,.

Even though it says three elsewhere, and you have Allah, Mary, and Jesus, and Surah 5, that's not really the Trinity. It's not talking about that. Okay, fine. Tell us who that's talking about, first of all.

What religious group was that talking about? And secondly, show us where in the Quran the doctrine of the Trinity, which distinguishes between being and person, and that was known for hundreds of years beforehand, is stated and condemned.

Where is it?

Once we've been able to do that,.

Then the debate will be closed.

Thank you very much.