Does the Qur'an Misrepresent the Trinity?

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Well, good evening everyone. Again, my name is Doug McMasters. I'm the pastor of Trinity Road Chapel here.

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And I want to extend on behalf of Trinity Road to you, all of you, a very warm welcome. Thank you for being here this evening.

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Just a couple of housekeeping items which we're going to mention. I have a very lovely mobile phone right here, and you might too.

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It has a silent feature, and you might want to just check to make sure yours is there along with mine.

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I, in fact, am making preparations to just tell you that I just went on silent.

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So if you could be sure that yours is on silent, and that way we won't have any interruptions with that.

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Just to let you know if you need to use the facilities at all, please just go straight out the back and speak to one of the stewards, and they can show you where the toilets are.

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That's probably the best way to explain it. They can help you find them rather than me trying to give you directions from over here.

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We're going to break in the middle of this debate for a time of refreshment.

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I think you'll find that to be an enjoyable time. We've made some preparations for all of you.

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So if you're feeling like you're thirsty or hungry, just hang on a little bit.

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We'll have something there for all of us to have. So let's go ahead and begin.

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They're still working to get us onto the live stream. We're going to let that happen as they're able to make it happen.

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But we're just going to continue with the live event as is. As I mentioned, this is a debate, a formal debate.

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This is our third in a series of debates that we've had. We had one two years ago with Sammy Zatari and James White on the subject of the deity of Christ, if I recall.

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And then last year with Abdullah Andalusi on the Big Trinity debate. Both of those debates,

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I believe, are available in audio on Trinity Road Chapel's website.

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So you can go there and you can hear those. As this one will be available also there, in addition to being in other formats available on websites probably by both of the men who are here this evening.

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The subject of tonight is, has Islam misunderstood Christianity? It is a question that demands a lot of respect and intellectual vigor as we address it.

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And so we've brought two speakers with us this evening that I think are going to be most capable in dealing with that subject.

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Let me introduce them to you now. First is Bassam Zawadi. He's an Islamicologist and a speaker who's engaged and conducted in various interfaith debates, lectures and dialogues all across the

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Middle East and Europe and North America. And he has a website, www .call

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-to -monotheism .com, which I would encourage you to spend some time visiting.

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And next in, James White. James White, who's been with us for the past two debates and here for the third, is the director of Alpha Omega Ministries, a

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Christian apologetic organization. He's the author of more than 20 books. He's a professor, a debater, and an owner of the

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Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. And his website is www .aomin .org.

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And you can visit there. Let me tell you what the format of tonight's debate is going to be.

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First of all, we're going to start off with James White. And he's going to give a 25 -minute opening statement.

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And that will be followed immediately with Basav's 25 -minute opening statement as well.

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From there, they're going to move directly to the three -minute cross -examination. Now, this cross -examination is simply to verify the claims that were made in the opening statements.

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So it's not going to be a cross -exam in the kind of sense that you might expect.

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It is simply to verify claims that were made. That will be followed by 12 minutes each, speaker at a time, for a rebuttal.

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And following that, we'll have our break. So we've got quite a bit on hand for us.

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Let's welcome our guests, our speakers, shall we? Well, with a thank you to your patience, without any further ado,

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I'm going to invite James White to come and begin our debate. Well, it is a pleasure to be with you this evening.

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It is a great crowd that we've had come out this evening for a very, very important discussion. Has Islam misrepresented

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Christianity? Now, the substance of the argument is fairly straightforward.

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My hope this evening is not that we are looking for a gotcha type of debate, but that we will seek to have understanding from both sides.

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This is a difficult subject. It's a somewhat in -depth subject. So I would hope that you would pay very close attention, and that you would be going out of this room this evening with the ability to analyze this very, very important issue of the relationship between Christianity and Islam.

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Now, here's the focused argument that I would like to present this evening. Obviously, if the

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Quran is the word of God, then God is its author. Obviously, from that,

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God always speaks the truth. He does not ever lie. He does not in any way have errors in his reasoning or in his presentation.

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God's arguments in his word will be truthful, and they will be accurate. So if it is

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God's word, then you will have truthful and accurate presentations. Now, the Quran makes reference to the

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Al -Kitab, the people of the book, and the Al -Anjil, the people of the gospel.

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And the Quran accuses Christians of committing excess in their religion, committing excess in their religion, in their dinikum, their din.

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They have committed excess in that. The Quran also identifies as kufr, an act of disbelief, and hence people who commit this as disbelievers, those who say that Allah is the

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Messiah, in Surah 5, 17 and in 5, 72, and those who say that Allah is the third of three, also in Surah 5, 73.

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These are acts of disbelief, according to the Quran. The Quran asserts that the statement,

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Allah is the Messiah, is an act of shirk, and that those who commit shirk will have the fire as their abode in Surah 5, 72.

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Now, the Trinity's most basic assertion is that there is only one true God. There is no association in the

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Trinitarian theology, as this requires a polytheistic belief, an association of other beings or deities with one

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God. So why does the Quran respond to the Trinity with assertions of monotheism?

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We're going to work through all these texts, I have to go quickly, but I want you to listen to the text from the Quran and you will see that it always responds with assertions of monotheism.

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Our question tonight is this. Does Islam misrepresent Christianity through the presentation made of Christian belief in the

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Quran? Can Mr. Zawadi demonstrate a truthful and accurate representation of Christian belief from the

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Quran? And I have a question for the Muslims in the audience this evening. Would you accept the condemnation of your faith as delusion and unbelief leading to hellfire by a later religion that had no greater understanding of Tawhid than the

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Quran has of the Trinity? Would you accept that from a religion that comes after you if that religion showed no greater understanding and accuracy of the representation of Tawhid than the

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Quran shows of the Trinity? If you would not, then you're being inconsistent. I think it's a very important question this evening.

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Now, the Quranic argument, oh people of the book, do not commit excess in your religion and say of Allah only the truth.

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That's what I want to do this evening. I do not want there to be any excess in my religion and I want to speak of God only what is the truth.

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That is certainly the direction that I want to go tonight. Now, I want to go through a series of texts in chronological order, in the best chronological order that we can come up with anyways, in which they were written.

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And I want to demonstrate that there is in the Quran a theme about the subject of Allah having a son.

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And this starts from the beginning and runs all the way through in the chronological order of the

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Quran. Say, O Muhammad, it has been revealed to me that a group of the jinn listened and said, Indeed, we have heard an amazing

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Quran. It guides to the right course and we have believed in it. And we will never associate with our

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Lord anyone. And it teaches that exalted is the nobleness of our Lord. He has not taken a wife or a son.

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Surah 72. Notice he has not taken a wife or a son. What's the nature of sonship if you have to have a wife?

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Very important to understand. Surah 19. And they say the most merciful has taken for himself a son.

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You have done an atrocious thing. The heavens almost rupture therefrom and the earth splits open and the mountains collapse in devastation that they attribute to the most merciful a son.

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And it is not appropriate for the most merciful that he should take a son. Notice how serious this charge of having a son to God is.

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But notice the development of the theme. We're going through the Quran from the earliest surahs to the last surahs.

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Notice the development of the theme over time. In surah 6, 101 through 102. He is originator of the heavens and the earth.

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How could he have a son when he does not have a companion and he created all things?

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So it's talked about a wife already. Now it talks about a companion, a mate, a wife. And he is of all things knowing.

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That is Allah, your Lord. There is no deity except him, the creator of all things.

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So worship him and he is the disposer of all things. Notice the continued assertion. He is the creator.

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There is only one and it's always in this context of he does not have a son. How could he have a son unless he had a companion, a wife, by which to have such a son?

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Surah 43. Say, O Muhammad, if the most merciful had a son, then I would be the first of his worshipers.

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Exalted is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Lord of the throne, above what they describe. So leave them to converse vainly and amuse themselves until they meet their day which they are promised.

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And it is Allah who is the only deity in the heaven and on the earth, the only deity. And he is the wise, the knowing.

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No son. He is exalted above that. There is only one God. The theme continues on.

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On the day we will gather the righteous to the most merciful as a delegation and will drive the criminals to hell in thirst.

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None will have power of intercession except he who had taken from the most merciful a covenant. All praise is due to Allah who has sent down upon his servant the book and has not made therein any deviance.

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He has made it straight to warn of severe punishment from him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward in which they will remain forever.

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And to warn those who say Allah has taken a son. Taken a son.

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Not eternally had a son but taken a son. They have no knowledge of it nor had their fathers.

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Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths. They speak not except a lie. Surah 18 verses 1 through 5.

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Notice the theme continues on. And in Surah 21. And we sent not before you any messenger except that we revealed to him that there is no deity except me.

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So worship me. And they say the most merciful has taken a son. Exalted is he rather they are but honored servants.

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You see over and over again the same theme all the way through this idea of what a son would mean to Allah.

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And so with these we come now to the key texts. And my time is going by very quickly. The key texts that specifically lay out for us what the

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Alal Kitab and the Alal Anjil mean. Now in this instance it's pretty obvious that the

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Alal Kitab are the Christians not the Jews. Because we're talking about Jesus specifically. And so let's look at what these texts say.

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Listen very carefully to what the Quran says. So we can understand the foundation of the discussion that Mr.

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Zawadi and I will have this evening. Oh people of the book. Alal Kitab. Do not commit excess in your religion.

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Or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah Jesus the son of Mary was but a messenger of Allah.

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And his word which he directed to Mary and a soul created a command from him. So believe in Allah and his messengers.

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By the way I'm using the Sahih International translation this evening primarily. And do not say three.

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Now there are some translations that say Trinity. The word Trinity never appears in the Quran. The word three does but the word

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Trinity does not. And do not say three. Desist. It is better for you.

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Indeed Allah is but one God. Exalted is he above having a son.

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Have we already seen this theme? We have. And what do we hear here? Do not say three.

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Indeed Allah is but one God. Now what does that mean? If I say do not say three, there is only one.

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I'm clearly saying there is only one of this category of being. And so what is being said?

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Do not say three. Indeed Allah is but one Allah. Right? To him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth.

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And sufficient is Allah as disposer of affairs. Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah.

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Nor would the angels near to him. And whoever disdains his worship and is arrogant, he will gather them to himself altogether.

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Surah 4, 171 through 172. Now clearly the idea is since Jesus worshipped

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God, then he could not be God himself. Assuming Unitarianism. That's fine.

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We can get into that another time. That's not the subject of our debate this evening. We've already debated that before. But there is the assertion from Surah 4.

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Then we go to Surah 5. O people of the Scripture, There has come to you, our messenger, making clear to you much of what you used to conceal the

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Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear book. They have certainly disbelieved.

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Notice it's an act of Kufr. Who say that Allah is Messiah, the son of Mary. Allah is

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Messiah, the son of Mary. That's a pretty unusual statement even for Christians to make. We'll look at it a little bit more closely.

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Say, then who could prevent Allah at all if he had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother, or everyone on the earth?

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So since they could be destroyed, then they could not be deities. And Jesus could not be a deity.

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His mother could not be a deity. Anything that's created cannot be a deity according to this line of thinking.

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And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what he wills.

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And Allah is over all things competent. But the Jews and the Christians say we're the children of Allah and his beloved.

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Say, then why does he punish you for your sins? Rather, you are human beings from among those he has created.

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He forgives whom he wills and he punishes whom he wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them.

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And to him is the final destination, Surah 5, 15, and then 17 through 18.

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Now that continues in Surah 5. There's a theme in Surah 5. I believe if we're going to interpret it correctly, we have to look at all of Surah 5.

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They have certainly disbelieved, there's Kufr again, who say Allah is the

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Messiah, the son of Mary, repeating what was already said before. While the Messiah has said,

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O children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Indeed, he who associates others with Allah, there's

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Shirk, Allah has forbidden him paradise and his refuge is the fire.

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And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. Very strong words in regards to disbelief.

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They have certainly disbelieved, another accusation of Kufr, who say

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Allah is the third of three. The term Trinity is not there.

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It is literally the phrase the third of three. Three what?

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Well, let's listen to what the text says. And there is no

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God except one God. There is no deity except one

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Allah. Now if, again, if words have meaning and you say

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Allah is the third of three and then immediately the response is there is no

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God except one God, then what are you saying as to the threeness? What does that mean? Is it not an accusation of polytheism?

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Is it not an accusation that you believe that there is more than one God? I think very clearly that it is.

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If they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers, among them, a painful punishment.

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So notice the theme that's also developing. Punishment, if you continue to believe what the

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Alal Kitab have said literally all along from their beginning. So will they not repent to Allah and seek his forgiveness?

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And Allah is forgiving and merciful. So it's something you need to repent of. It is a sin to say these things.

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Kufr, shirk, these are very, very strong terms that are being used.

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Say, do you worship besides Allah? Notice besides Allah. One thing you must understand,

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Christians never worship anything besides from God. In fact, one of my strongest arguments against my

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Roman Catholic friends is that they come very close to violating that very thing which has been so fundamental to Christian theism from the beginning.

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Do you worship besides Allah that which holds for you no power of harm or benefit while it is

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Allah who is the hearing, the knowing? I don't worship anything that has no power to harm or benefit me because I believe that the objects of my worship, the

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Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have eternally been God. They sustain all things. Jesus Christ is the creator of all things.

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Everything that I am comes from his hand. I am sustained by his spirit even at this moment. So I do not worship anything that would fit these words and yet the

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Quran says this. Say, oh people of the scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way.

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And so here is the assertion that's being made that this belief of the people of the scripture involves going beyond the truth, going in exceeding limits.

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Ta 'alu is the term in Surah 4, verse 171. Ta 'alu fi dinikum, excess in your religion.

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That's what we're being accused of. But does the writer here understand what our worship is?

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Well, remember, we're still in Surah 5. We've looked at Surah 5, 15 through 18. Now we've looked at verses 72 through 77.

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It continues on. At the end of Surah 5, verse 116, we have one of the most important verses in this matter, in my opinion.

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Because we've heard much of three. We have heard three, do not say three, that's an act of kufr.

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Accusation of association, shirk. And then we've had the warnings that if you continue in this way, if you do not repent, there will be certain punishment for you.

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Three what? That really is the issue tonight. Because folks, just last night,

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I was in Leicester Square. I know some of you were there last night. And I was talking to a very young Muslim.

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And he basically said to me that Muslims go to heaven and Christians go to heaven and I just follow what

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I believe and it just doesn't really matter. I pray and I think what I believe is true, but you're gonna have your opportunities before God as well and I can't judge.

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That's not really the historic Islamic perspective. And if the

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Quran is the word of God, then we have to take it seriously. And we have to ask the question, what do these words mean?

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Did they have a meaning when they were first said? The first time that Muhammad recited these words, did they have a meaning then?

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If the Quran has eternally been God's word and if in fact the earthly Quran is but a representation of what was written in eternity on that heavenly tablet, then does the

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Quran speak to all ages? I've had many Muslims say, well Jesus is just the Messiah for the Jewish people, but Islam is for all people.

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So the Quran is for all people. Okay, then when Allah wrote the

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Quran, or when the Quran, well it didn't come into existence, but however the relationship you understand between Allah and the

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Quran, and it was to be available to all people and relevant to all people, then wouldn't it be describing

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Christianity as it exists in the world today? The Christianity that existed in the day of Muhammad believed in a certain doctrine of the

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Trinity. It continues to believe in that today. And in fact, even that which I would not call

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Christianity in reality, but which professes to be Christianity in the broad sense, if you take the

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Protestant and Roman Catholic groups and put them together, they believe the same thing on this subject.

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And so, what is the nature of the three that you are to desist from saying?

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Why does the Quran keep saying, there is only one Allah, right after it says do not say three?

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Where does the Quran show an understanding? Folks, by this time in history, the doctrine of the

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Trinity had been clearly defined. And there were already people who had written extensive critiques on the subject.

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There were human beings who had done a good job in arguing against the Trinity, even at this time.

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Wouldn't you expect that if God was the author of this text, that he would know more about it than any human being in that day?

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Even if the Trinity's wrong, didn't Allah know what it was? Of course he did.

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And so, what's the three? You tell me. Surah 5, Ayah 116.

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And beware the day when Allah will say, O Jesus, Isa bin

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Mariam, did you say to the people, take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?

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Now, we know historically, that for a brief period of time anyways, there is a group called the

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Coloridians, a heretical little sect, very small, that is said to have worshipped

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Mary as a deity. And I've had people say, oh, Muhammad had run into them.

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I've never seen any evidence that they existed in Muhammad's day. I've never seen any evidence that he ever ran into them. But same people have said, that must be what it is.

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Why would Allah reveal a text in eternity that would have absolutely no relevance to anyone after it was given?

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The Coloridians were gone. Why would you ignore the major world religion that Islam has had to deal with all the way through its history and focus upon a little group that didn't even continue to exist until the days of Muhammad?

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I don't see how that works. If this represents the author of the

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Quran's understanding of the Trinity, then our debate this evening is concluded.

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Why would Allah say to Isa bin Maryam, did you say the people take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?

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Even the worst forms of idolatry in Roman Catholicism today do not say that Mary is divine.

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Now I've argued against them many times, I've debated this very subject, that by allowing prayer to her and her intercession, the saints and all the rest of that stuff, they are violating strict monotheism, there's no question about that.

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But even at that, that was not in existence in that day. There has been a tremendous evolution over the past number of centuries, especially just over the past 160 or so years in the

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Marian doctrines within Roman Catholicism. So what does this mean? Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah.

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If this is supposed to be about Christianity, then the author of the Quran did not understand

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Christianity. Allah, even if Christianity was false, understood it and would have accurately represented it.

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This is the question we must address this evening. Now it's interesting, the text goes on, in verses 116, this actually is verse 117 as well.

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No, this is just 116, I'm sorry. He will say, exalted are you, this is allegedly Jesus' response, exalted are you, it was not for me to say that to which

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I have no right. If I had said it, you would have known it. You know what is within myself and I do not know what is within yourself.

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Indeed, it is you who is knower of the unseen. Now, folks, the

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Quran very often puts words in Jesus' mouth and this is one of those places. Only once in an identifiable historical place, but here you have

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Jesus allegedly saying to Allah, you know what is within myself,

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I do not know what is within yourself. And yet, why is this whole subject this evening important?

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Because it seems very clear to me that the author of this text had never read words that had been written down and preserved for half a millennium at this time, that had been distributed all over the known world that were a part of the

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Gospel of Jesus Christ. And those words are found in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 11, verse 27.

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And here, from someone who lived at the same time as Jesus, in the same place as Jesus, writing from the same worldview as Jesus, we have

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Jesus saying, all things have been handed over to me by my Father. And no one knows the

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Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the

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Son and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. May I suggest to you, my friends, the reason that we gather here this evening and we do so out of respect.

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I'm very thankful that Bassam is here this evening. I hope we're going to have a very respectful and friendly interchange.

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But what we believe is God's truth is directly contradictory to the other side.

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And we cannot compromise about that. And here you have Jesus saying, no one knows the

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Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal

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Him. You see, the reason this is an important debate tonight is because if Jesus is who these ancient documents said

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He was, not just a mere Rasul, but the very one who reveals the Father, He is the only way of having true knowledge of the

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Father. And that's something all the world needs to know. That's why we're here this evening.

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Thank you very much. Now we have an opportunity from Bassam Zawadi with 25 minutes for his opening statements.

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Let's welcome him, shall we? Okay, Assalamualaikum and greetings.

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I would like to express my appreciation to all of you for coming here this evening in order to participate in this discussion with us.

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I'd also like to thank Pastor Doug for allowing us to use this chapel as a platform for the debate and Dr.

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White for his willingness to engage me on this subject. Has Islam misunderstood Christianity? What is meant by Islam?

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Well, it's referring to Islamic teachings whose basis is from authoritative sources. What are those authoritative sources according to Orthodox Islam?

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Those sources are the Quran. Prophetic traditions are authentic according to Islamic criteria and the consensus of Islamic scholars on a particular issue.

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What is meant by misunderstood? This subject has nothing to do with whether Unitarianism or Trinitarianism is the true concept of monotheism.

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It has nothing to do with whether Islam has successfully refuted or critiqued Christianity. This topic is strictly about whether Islam has misunderstood

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Christianity by either directly or indirectly falsely attributing certain beliefs to Christianity or Christians who don't hold these beliefs.

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What is meant by Christianity? Well, Christianity means different things to different people who claim to adhere to the faith.

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Biblical Unitarians claim to adhere to a Christianity that would be deemed as nothing absolutely close compared to what someone like Dr.

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James White adheres to. Dr. White, as a Reformed Protestant, could spend hours lecturing us on how a number of beliefs that Catholics adhere to have nothing to do with Christianity.

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So what is Christianity? What is a Christian according to Islam? Professor Sidney Griffith from the

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Catholic University of America on page 8 of his book, The Church in the Shadow of the Mosque, Christians and Muslims in the

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World, he said, the community identity of the Christians in the Quran's audience must be determined in reference to the whole profile of Christians and Christianity that emerges from the

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Quran's references and allusions to their scriptures, beliefs, and practices. The matter should not be determined just on the basis of the etymologies and particular terms and phrases taken in conjunction with certain theological constructions that modern interpreters think they could plausibly impose on them.

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So we need to see how the Islamic sources use the term Christian and not impose our own understanding of the term onto the

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Islamic texts. The Islamic sources most commonly refer to Christians by the terms

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Nasara, which literally translates into Nazarenes, or as Ahlul Kitab, which translates into people of the book.

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There is a tradition where the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said, the Christians were divided into 72 sects, 71 of which are in the fire, and one is in paradise.

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So here we see that the Islamic sources recognize that Christians have been divided into several sects.

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Furthermore, the Islamic sources still use the same terms, Nasara and Ahlul Kitab, to refer to each of these sects.

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Islam is not giving a unique name to each sect. It labels them all as Nasara and Ahlul Kitab.

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The Islamic sources, unlike zealous Christians today, are not interested in providing the label

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Christianity to the belief that represents the correct interpretation of the Bible. Rather, we see that the

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Islamic sources use the term Christian to refer to anyone who makes the claim to follow Jesus.

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So that's the first important thing to bear in mind. The second important thing to bear in mind is an important linguistic principle in Arabic known as اطلاق اسم الكل على البعض which is the method of referring to a specific group of people by using a general name.

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For example, there are verses in which the Quran would say the Jews or the people but it's not referring to all

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Jews and all people. Similarly, when the Islamic sources or even Islamic scholars say the

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Nasara or the people of the book it does not necessarily mean that it's referring to all Christians within that category and could be referring to a specific group of Christians using that general term.

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So that's the second important thing to bear in mind. With that said, I would like to dive straight into the arguments.

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Many allegations have been put forth stating that Islam has misunderstood Christianity. However, in my opening statement

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I would like to touch upon the three most frequent ones that I have come across and they are the ones that Dr. White has presented to us.

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One, the Quran claims that Christians claim to believe in polytheism. Two, the

34:58

Quran identifies the Trinity as Allah, Jesus, and Mary. Three, Islam assumes that Jesus is a biological son of God according to Christianity.

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Argument number one, the Quran claims that Christians claim to believe in polytheism. Before accusing anyone of misunderstanding something we need to be fair and open to identifying the intent behind the words of the speaker.

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When we read Quranic verses such as Surah 4, Ayah 171 addressed to Christians and Jews which says,

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So believe in Allah and his messengers. One is not to interpret that as the Quran saying that Christians say that we reject

35:37

God's messengers but rather the Quran speaking based on de facto reality according to it is saying that Christians don't accept all of God's messengers.

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Similarly, when Jesus is alleged to have said to the Jews in John 8, 44 you belong to your father the devil and you want to carry out your father's desires.

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No one understands that Jesus is claiming that this is what the Jews themselves claim to do. So why can't those

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Quranic passages which call out to Christians to stop associating other gods with Allah also be using this method and approach of communication.

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Why can't we read those passages in a way that shows that the author of the Quran is speaking based on the assumption that Allah is one person and that only

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Allah alone is God and by de facto reality claiming any other person to be God is considered polytheism according to Islamic guidelines.

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Yes, of course you could disagree with this assumption of Unitarianism however this evening's debate just as Dr.

36:34

White said is not about Unitarianism versus Trinitarianism but whether Islam has misunderstood

36:39

Christianity. If we simply and fairly allow the Quran the benefit of the doubt in that it could possibly be communicating with this intent then there is no basis for arguing especially with any sort of confidence that these sorts of passages illustrate that Islam has misunderstood

36:54

Christianity. Argument number two. The Quran identifies the

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Trinity as Allah, Jesus, and Mary. Nowhere do the Islamic sources explicitly identify the three persons of the

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Trinity. It is not even in Islam's interest to do so. Islam is mainly concerned with denouncing concepts and beliefs and not delving into any unnecessary details.

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It's not essential to identify the three persons of the Trinity and then condemn that Trinity concept when you have already made it clear that God is one person.

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When we look at Surah 4, Ayah 171 and Surah 5, Ayah 73 where the Trinity is being alluded to we don't see

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Mary's name being mentioned as one of the three. The Quran treats the issue of the Trinity and Mary's being taken as a god as two separate themes.

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Surah 5, Ayah 116 states And when Allah will say, O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say unto men,

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Take me and my mother as two gods besides Allah? He will say, Glory be to you. It was not for me to say what

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I had no right to say. This is simply a verse disapproving of the worship of Jesus and Mary besides Allah and also exonerates

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Jesus from having advised his followers to worship him and Mary. There is no allusion to the doctrine of the

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Trinity in this verse. Also, the idea of Mary being taken as a god could be understood in more than one sense.

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If one refers to Surah 9, Ayah 31 and 25, Ayah 43 one could see that when the

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Quran refers to someone or something being taken as a god it doesn't always mean so in a literal sense but that this someone or something is treated in a way that only

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God deserves to be treated. Similarly, one could be open to the possibility that when

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Surah 5, Ayah 116 talks about Mary being taken as a god that it doesn't mean so in the literal sense but that there are those treating

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Mary in a way that only God deserves to be treated just like with the Catholics and their excessive venerations of Mary.

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Professor of Christianity and Islam at the University of Birmingham, Dave Thomas said in his article entitled

38:54

Trinity in the Encyclopedia of Islam, Volume 5, pages 369 -370 in regards to this passage

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Strictly speaking, this verse need not be read as a reference to a version of the Trinity but rather as an example of shirk.

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As such, it could be understood as a warning against excessive devotion to Jesus and extravagant veneration of Mary.

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A reminder linked to the central theme of the Quran that there is only one God and he alone is to be worshipped.

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And then he continues on to say If on the other hand there is no sectarian version of the

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Christian doctrine being addressed in this verse it need not be read as a rejection of a deviant doctrine of the

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Trinity but as a denial that Jesus and Mary are equal with God and a warning against making excessive claims about them.

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Thus, it can be understood as an instance of the warning against the divinization of Jesus that is given elsewhere in the

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Quran and a warning against a virtual divinization of Mary in the declarations of the 5th century church councils that she is

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Theotokos, God -bearer. Islamic historian Heribert Bussi said on page 23 of his book

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Islam, Judaism, and Christianity Theological and Historical Affiliations There is reference in the

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Quran to an odd understanding of the Trinity God asked Jesus if he taught the following Take me and my mother as gods apart from God referring to 5116

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Jesus answered negatively, of course The obvious assumption here that Muhammad made a mistake in listing the three persons of the one

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Godhead can be countered with the assumption that the reference was to the Coloridians a Christian sect that worshipped the

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Virgin Mary. He then continues on to say With respect to the cited Quran passage

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Muhammad was most likely referring to such a Christian sect This is in any case more plausible than assuming that the

40:37

Prophet defined the Trinity in such an erroneous manner out of pure ignorance. Indeed, it is highly unlikely that the author of the

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Quran would have made this mistake especially since we have no record of any Christians arguing this point against Muhammad while Islamic sources have not shied away from mentioning

40:55

Christian arguments against Islam. And plus, there were Christian converts to Islam such as Salman al -Farisi,

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Adi ibn Hatim, and others who were around that could have easily corrected the Prophet, peace be upon him but they never did because they didn't understand the

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Quran to be saying that Mary was part of the Trinity. Quranic exegete, Imam al -Tabarani said in his commentary on Surah 5,

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Ayah 116 that even if there were no people today who claim that Mary is God then it's surely bound that some in the past must have done it.

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This shows that grammatically and textually speaking one is not bound to interpret the Quran as referring to all

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Christians rather it is condemning the belief and not pinpointing exactly who it is that held this belief.

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It's possible to say that it is a reference to the Coloridians just as Islamic historian Heribert said or it could possibly be a reference to the

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Catholics as Professor Dave Thomas suggested. The next verse in question is Surah 5,

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Ayah 73 which states, Surely disbelievers are those who said

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Allah is the third of the three. Professor Dave Thomas on page 369 of the same article said

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It has been suggested that this verse criticizes a deviant form of Trinitarian belief which overstressed the distinctiveness of the three persons at the expense of their unity as substance.

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It has also been noted that in fact this is not a reference to the Trinity but to Jesus who in Syriac literature was often called the third of three.

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By this reading, Surah 5, Ayah 73 must be seen as constituting part of a sustained criticism of the belief in the divinity of Christ that occupies the whole of Surah 5,

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Ayah 72 to 75. That is an emphatic repetition of the criticism in verse 72 that God and Christ are identical.

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Again, this goes to show that the verse is not clearly saying that all Christians believe that Mary was part of a

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Trinity. Some have argued that because two verses later in verse 75 the

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Quran presents an argument against Mary's divinity. So this means that verse 73 is identifying

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Mary as one of the three. However, this connection is not clear because if you were to read verse 72 you would observe that the

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Quran is condemning a belief different from the one in verse 73. So just because verse 75 condemns the belief in Mary's deity that doesn't necessarily imply that it has to do with the people being addressed two verses prior in verse 73.

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The next verse in question is Surah 4, Ayah 171 which states

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O people of the scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion nor say of Allah but the truth.

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The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was a messenger of Allah and his word which he bestowed on Mary and the spirit created by him.

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So believe in Allah and his messengers. Say not three. Cease, it is better for you.

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Imam al -Razi in his commentary on this verse says that there's a difference of opinion as to what three is being referred to in the verse.

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He, alongside Quranic commentators al -Zamakhshari, al -Khazin, Abu Saud, and al -Baydawi was open to the possibility that don't say three means don't say three divine persons father, son, and holy spirit.

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Quranic commentators al -Baghawi, ibn Abdul Salam, and ibn Adil in their commentary say that three is referring to the three divine persons father, son, and holy spirit.

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So does Quranic exegete al -Fairuz al -Abadi and al -Tabarani. Quranic commentators ibn

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Atiyah and al -Qummi said that three in this verse adjusts and applies itself to more than one

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Christian group regardless of whether they say three gods or three divine persons, father, son, and holy spirit or essence, knowledge, and life, etc.

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There were Gnostics who believed in a trinity of father, son, and matter or God the father, Sophia the mother, and Logos the son.

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So this don't say three command would also apply to such beliefs. Quranic commentator

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Abu Hayyan in his commentary said and the majority of Muslim scholars said that this passage is directed towards common

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Christians because they believe in a trinity. They say father, son, and holy spirit are one

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God. Here we see that Abu Hayyan said that the majority of scholars identified the three as father, son, and holy spirit.

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As for the opinion that Mary is part of the three Quranic commentator Imam al -Tabari in his commentary on surah 573 said that this is the opinion of a few scholars and I should add that these scholars didn't say that the

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Quran attributed this belief to all Christians. Now just because it is a minority opinion that doesn't mean that it's wrong.

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However, it should indicate to us that there is a good reason for thinking that the Quran doesn't explicitly state that Mary was part of the trinity and that in order to prove that it does good evidence should be put forth.

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This is especially when we're thinking of throwing accusations against Islam for misrepresenting the beliefs of others.

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One may attempt to claim that there was a consensus amongst the early

45:56

Muslims that the Quran taught that Mary was part of the trinity and then over time as Muslims became more aware of the beliefs of Christians they tried to reinterpret the

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Quran. However, does this argument carry any weight? Usually I see

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Christian polemicists citing and wrongly I might add unfortunately Ibn Kathir who died in the 8th

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Islamic century Al -Baydawi who died in the 7th Islamic century Tafsir al -Jalalain dated to the 9th

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Islamic century and al -Zamakhshari who died in the 6th Islamic century to show that there were Muslim scholars who interpreted the

46:29

Quran as stating that all Christians believed that Mary was part of the trinity. However, I refer to Imam al -Baghawi who died in the 6th

46:36

Islamic century but before al -Zamakhshari and other scholars who come around the same time as the scholars cited by Christian polemicists who correctly identify the trinity and explain the

46:46

Quran in light of that. You have early Muslim scholars such as al -Qasim bin

46:51

Ibrahim who in his book Al -Rad' al -Nasara The Refutation of Christians on page 33 accurately defines the trinity as consisting of three divine persons

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Father, Son, and Holy Spirit sharing one essence. Professor Dave Thomas in his book

47:04

Early Muslim Polemic Against Christianity talks about Abu Isa al -Warraq an

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Islamic philosopher who died in the early 3rd Islamic century and al -Warraq accurately represents the trinity.

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As a matter of fact, a Christian who wrote a rebuttal to al -Warraq's work said what makes al -Warraq's refutation of the trinity truly remarkable to Christians is that he used the same

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Aristotelian and scholastic philosophic terminology that Christians use to describe the trinity.

47:32

Also Professor Dave Thomas in his book Christian Doctrines in Islamic Theology talks about early

47:38

Muslims and their refutations to Christianity. He talks about Abu Mansur al -Maturidi an

47:44

Islamic theologian who died in the early 4th Islamic century who said in his book Tawheed وَالنَصَارَ يَقُولُون بِالْوَاحِد فِي الْكَيَّانِ وَالثَلَٰثَ فِي الْقُلُومَاتِ and the

47:53

Christians believe in one essence but three divine persons. Similarly he talks about Ibn Shirshir who died in the early 3rd

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Islamic century Abu Bakr al -Baqalani and Abd al -Jabbar ibn Ahmad al -Hamadani and all of them correctly identified the trinity as father, son, and holy spirit.

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We also have Muqatil bin Sulaiman a very early Quranic commentator who died in the middle of the 2nd

48:16

Islamic century saying in his commentary on Surah 573 that it was a specific group of Christians who claimed that Mary was

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God and not all. The point that is being pressed here is that there were early

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Muslims who understood the trinity and did not claim that all Christians included Mary into the trinity and never felt confused or had the concern that Islam has somehow misunderstood

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Christianity. This also shows that this wasn't an opinion that developed in later centuries.

48:45

Argument number three Islam assumes that Jesus is a biological son of God according to Christianity.

48:51

There are a number of arguments that are put forth in an attempt to illustrate this however due to time constraints

48:56

I would like to focus on one argument and that is the appeal to Surah 6, Ayah 101 which states he is the originator of the heavens and the earth.

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How can he have a child or son when he has had no female companion? The Arabic word is sahiba.

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He created all things and he is the all -knower of everything. It's argued by some that this passage shows that the author of the

49:18

Quran thought that Christians believed that Jesus is a biological son where God had sex with Mary in order to conceive

49:24

Jesus. First of all it's possible that this verse is directed to all

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Christians who believe in Jesus as the incarnate son. The incarnate son also known as the

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God man according to Christians had two separate natures despite being one person. Mary was literally a partner not a sexual partner but she was a partner in forming

49:47

Jesus the incarnate son for where else did Jesus obtain his human nature except from being begotten of Mary?

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So we can understand the Quran as saying how could I have had Jesus as an incarnate son when

50:01

I never took a woman as a partner in any incarnation process to begin with? Catholics say that Mary was the theotokos, the

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God bearer the one who gives birth to God. In response to that, the Quran could be saying how could

50:13

I have had Jesus as an incarnate son when I haven't selected any partner to be a theotokos? The Arabic word used in the verse sahiba could be translated and interpreted as partner or companion.

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The word itself does not necessarily denote that a man is sexually intimate with his sahiba.

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It could simply mean that they are companions who partnered up for a task. The Quran does not state that Christians believe or claim that God and Mary had sex with each other in order to conceive

50:40

Jesus. The Quranic claim is not how could I have had Jesus as a son when I haven't had sex with Mary?

50:46

Yes, it's possible to interpret it that way but that's not what the verse plainly says.

50:52

Rather, the plain Quranic claim is how can I have a son when I haven't had a female partner? And that is open to interpretation.

51:00

The burden of proof would be on the one who insists on a certain interpretation. Secondly, it's not clear that this verse is necessarily to be applied to all

51:09

Christians. It could be in reference to those Gnostic Christians who were influenced by the teachings of Philo and believed in the trinity of father,

51:16

Sophia the mother, and Logos the son, where Sophia is a mother figure and kind of a consort of the father who gave birth to the

51:22

Logos. In conclusion, I don't believe that a convincing case could be made showing that Islam has misunderstood

51:28

Christianity. Rather, I think it's quite the contrary that Islamic sources have been the victim of being misunderstood by many

51:34

Christian polemicists. Thank you. So what follows now is a three minute opportunity from each of the debaters to ask questions in order to gain clarification of the assertions that were made in the opening statements.

51:58

We'll begin with James White. I might be able to get done a little bit quickly here.

52:07

Bassam, do you believe that the Qur 'an is mubinun, that it is clear and gives a single message?

52:15

Yes, but it's okay if I clarify that? Please, please. Yeah, because yes, I believe that it is in a general sense, but there's also a verse in the

52:22

Qur 'an which says that there are verses which are clear and verses which are ambiguous in meaning and that only people who study a lot, such as scholars, would be able to know the meaning of those passages.

52:35

So I harmonize between that verse and the other verse. So I would say the Qur 'an is not clear, but not that every single verse is clear to every layman.

52:43

So the Qur 'an should be clear to the rulema, but not necessarily to anybody else?

52:49

No, some of the Qur 'an says there are verses which are muhkamat, those that are clear, wuhum ummul kitab, and they are the foundations of the book, like God is one, pray five times a day, fast in Ramadan, the basics, the fundamentals of the religion.

53:04

But there are also verses which are mutashabihat, those which are ambiguous. And for those kinds of passages, people with knowledge would be qualified to understand them, and it works the same way with the

53:17

Bible. A layman Christian wouldn't understand every single verse in the

53:23

Bible, but he would understand the basic and fundamental aspects of the Bible. As I listened to your interpretations of Surah 5, did

53:32

I misunderstand you? At one point you maybe you were quoting somebody else,

53:38

I couldn't tell because I'm behind you, but you said Muhammad was making reference to. That sounded awfully strange coming from a

53:46

Muslim. Was that a citation of someone? Because you wouldn't believe that Muhammad would make reference to anything, right?

53:53

I was citing a non -Muslim Okay. He's a German historian.

53:59

His name is Harry Bussey, and he said with respect to the Quran passage, Muhammad was most likely referring to such a

54:06

Christian site. He's not a Muslim, so he's assuming that Muhammad is the author of the Quran. But I'm citing him just to show.

54:12

Okay. I wasn't able to follow that. Just trying to look for some clarification. So, very quickly, in the last 40 seconds here, is it your position that surah 5 is too large to provide any kind of a context between the beginning of the surah, surah 5, 15 through 18, the middle of the surah, surah 5, 72 through 77, and then the end of the surah, surah 5, 116?

54:40

It seemed like you were saying we cannot connect these together and look at surah 5 as a whole.

54:47

Well, I mean, if surah 5, 72 is independent of surah 5, 73, then it won't be a surprise to say that you could isolate those passages.

55:00

They're not necessarily connected. Your presentation was quite clear, so I'm only going to ask you one question.

55:08

Are you saying that the Quran clearly and explicitly states that Mary was part of the

55:14

Trinity? Or are you saying that this was the most likely reading? Well, obviously,

55:23

I'm trying to make my argument based upon the common Islamic belief that the Quran is a consistent and clear revelation of God's truth.

55:32

If I reject that and believe that it is in fact a compilation of different perspectives, that you can't follow the context and things like that, then

55:41

I could not believe that I could ever make an argument that the Quran ever makes any kind of clear statement. But what

55:47

I was trying to do is that if the Quran is a consistent revelation, similar to the way

55:52

I view the Bible, what I tried to do was establish that there is a theme regarding sonship and Allah, monotheism, and hence we have to take that theme into consideration in the interpretation of surah 5, 116.

56:08

That's going to be part of our discussion, I think, is whether you believe that the Quran has a sufficient contextual integrity to allow that.

56:17

Most Muslims I speak with believe that it does. I don't know if that's why

56:22

I just asked the question I did of you. I am saying that if there is a way of looking at the

56:27

Quran that's consistent, then I don't, then I would suggest that yes, that is the clear meaning of surah 5, 116.

56:35

If the idea is, well no, actually we can't attribute that level of clarity, then that needs to be brought out.

56:44

So you're saying that if we do not interpret surah 573 in light of surah 5, 116, then that would make the

56:52

Quran unclear and inconsistent. No, because it wasn't just the connection between 5, 70 and 5, 116.

56:59

It starts at the beginning of surah 5, and in fact is a part of a theme that you traced back to surah 4, and as I did in my presentation started chronologically with the earliest surahs from the

57:10

Meccan surahs, and traced all the way through the Meccan surahs into the Medinan surahs, this common theme.

57:16

If you can do that with the Quran, then I would say that a person should look at the Quran and say, this is what it says about the nature of the three.

57:24

If what you're saying is, well we just don't know, it can't bear that kind of examination, then that's going to have a big impact on our discussion tonight too.

57:34

Great, thanks a lot. This brings us now to our third section in this part of our debate, which will be followed by a break.

57:47

Each of the debaters have 10 minutes, pardon me, I was wrong about that, 12 minutes for their rebuttals, and we'll begin with James White.

58:12

Alright, now, we're starting to get into the heart of the matter. We've had the opening presentations, now we have to start thinking together.

58:21

My real hope, folks, for this evening is that you will enter into this discussion with us, not verbally by the way, that's not what

58:30

I was meaning, but that you will enter into this and think with us about what it is that we're saying.

58:37

It struck me that with all of the citations of later writers, and if we can take into consideration later writers, it's clear to me that as Islam grew, and later theologians began to interact with Christians, that you have people saying, oh, well this is what you believe, then now they start going back to the

58:57

Quran. My question is this, what defines Islamic belief? I labor under the assumption that since there is only one uncreated

59:06

Quran, one revelation from God, that it is the ultimate source of things. And as Bassam pointed out, there are all sorts of different interpretations of each one of these texts to be found in Islamic scholarship.

59:21

So the question really is, as we just saw in the brief cross -examination period, can we go to the

59:28

Quran and say, what does it teach on this subject? Our subject this evening is a little bit odd, does

59:35

Islam misrepresent Christianity? Misrepresent is a negative term. So what is the positive statement of our thesis this evening?

59:43

Does Islam accurately represent Christianity? Well, that would be for Bassam to demonstrate, because remember, what does the

59:52

Quran say? The Quran says that the people who say these things, who say three, who say the third of three, who do these acts of kufr and shirk, and say

01:00:02

Allah is the Messiah, and Son of God, and Surah 114, All these things, what's the result for these people?

01:00:13

It says that Allah makes heaven haram to them, and the fire will be their abode.

01:00:22

So, folks, from my perspective, if Allah is going to say that, he better be really clear about what he's talking about.

01:00:29

And if these are a part of the not -so -clear verses, the things that are not foundational, isn't that a problem?

01:00:39

Isn't it a problem to say, well, you know, when it comes to the Trinity and the deity of Christ, yeah, okay, the

01:00:45

Quran never talks about the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Somebody 300 or 400 years later did, but the

01:00:50

Quran did not. That's why I asked you a question early on. Would you accept a religion that comes along 600 years after Islam and says that what you believe is a delusion, it's unbelief, and it's going to send you to hellfire, and yet, when you ask, okay, you say what

01:01:11

I believe is wrong. Show me the evidence. Interact with what I believe. Well, we don't really need to do that. We don't need to really ever use

01:01:18

Tawhid. We don't need to talk about Tawhid. We don't need to talk about the prayers. We don't need to have any understanding of all the ramifications of Tawhid in Arubiya and in worship and in names and attributes.

01:01:32

We don't need to know anything about any of that. We can just simply say you're going to hell without really entering into that.

01:01:39

Would you as a Muslim accept that as a valid type of argumentation against your own faith?

01:01:46

And if you wouldn't, then why would you expect that we could come here this evening and be told that each one of these texts that we just looked at, the talk about Say Not Three, immediately it says there's one

01:01:58

God. Well, that doesn't really mean that there's an accusation of polytheism. Really?

01:02:04

When Muhammad first recited those verses, what would anyone who heard him saying that have understood him to say?

01:02:13

Did those words have meaning when they were first said? And if they had a meaning, what was it?

01:02:18

And is that meaning something that can be traced from the beginning of the Qur 'an to the end of the Qur 'an? If there's a difference in what the

01:02:25

Qur 'an means between those two, and there's lots of scholars that would say that in western countries, but if the

01:02:32

Qur 'an has a different meaning from the beginning to the end, then how is it Mubinun? Especially when, again, it is bringing this condemnation of someone and saying, you're going to go to hell fire.

01:02:44

You're not going to be in the presence of God. I think that most

01:02:50

Muslims I know of believe that when it comes to identifying Kufr, and when it comes to identifying

01:02:56

Shirk, that the Qur 'an is more than sufficient to define those terms. But if it is, then we have to come back and ask the question, is there a consistent interpretation all the way along in these matters?

01:03:11

So let's think about the text that we were looking at. Say not three, there is only one

01:03:16

Allah. Third of three, Basam is exactly right. You can find some

01:03:22

Syriac references to Jesus in that way, but is it his argument that that is the best way to interpret this?

01:03:28

That Muhammad had access to that? Or is Allah utilizing external sources?

01:03:34

Where does this come from? And when it says Jesus did you say worship yourself and your mother as gods in derogation of Allah, did those words have meaning?

01:03:50

Notice it says, fear the day. This is the day of judgment. And Allah says in that context, did you say to men?

01:03:59

Again, if this was the Coloridians, why is it in the Quran? They were gone. Why would you reveal, and this is one of the questions in cross -examination, we're going to have to have a discussion, because I need to understand what

01:04:14

Basam believes about the nature of the Quran. Is it relevant to our modern day?

01:04:20

Or was it only speaking then? Is it a divine revelation that's meant for all peoples, and therefore it can speak with clarity and hence will address the most relevant issues to Islam, which would obviously be

01:04:35

Christianity. And let's face it folks, from the conservative Sunni perspective

01:04:42

Thank you. Okay. Because I While he was drinking, we almost had an explosion, right?

01:04:49

While Basam was drinking, right? That particular point. I didn't know you were drinking. I'm sorry. I apologize for doing that.

01:04:56

Did it go up the nose? I think it did, yeah. From the conservative Sunni perspective,

01:05:02

I have spent many hours listening to Sheikh Yasir Qadhi. Are you familiar with Sheikh Yasir Qadhi? Would you consider him to be a...

01:05:07

Alright, thank you very much. I would say Sheikh Yasir Qadhi is probably the primary person that I have listened to for hours and hours and hours on the nature of Tawhid and Islamic jurisprudence and the whole nine yards, okay?

01:05:19

And he's very straightforward. Christianity is shirk.

01:05:26

What we believe about Jesus Christ is shirk. Okay? Now, if that's the case, then where does that come from?

01:05:36

Where does that come from in the Quran? Is it only dependent upon later interpretations or does the

01:05:41

Quran actually represent this? And when Muhammad spoke in the context in which he spoke and he quoted those words in Surah 5 and he talks about Mary and he even provides in the

01:05:55

Quran, and you would say Allah provided in the Quran, but I hope you understand that from my perspective, what I'm saying here, even provides apologetic arguments against what

01:06:04

I believe. Remember what one of the apologetic arguments is? We saw one of them and that was Allah could destroy

01:06:11

Jesus and Mary. But what was another argument that he made? They both have to eat their daily food, remember?

01:06:19

And so since they partook of humanity, then they cannot truly be deities.

01:06:26

Why present arguments about Mary as a deity when nobody in the audience listening to Muhammad is even making the argument?

01:06:39

Now, there are many, you and I both know this and I'm going to have to ask Bassam, is he going to join with me in pointing out that Ahmad Didat was wrong about the trinity every time

01:06:51

Ahmad Didat talked about the trinity? Because he was wrong all the time.

01:06:58

You all have heard it. I've heard it. I've listened to all of his stuff. What did he say? To have a son is of the lower sexual nature.

01:07:06

Is that not what Ahmad Didat said? Is that not what Zakir Naik says to this day? Are they wrong?

01:07:11

Yes, they're wrong. Does Bassam believe they're wrong? Do Muslims here believe they're wrong? I would encourage you to say that.

01:07:19

I've been very open in pointing out bad arguments against Islam on my side of the fence.

01:07:26

We have to have a high standard here. And were they wrong? Where did they get their wrongness?

01:07:32

Where did they get misled as to what the doctrine of the trinity is? It seems to me, here's my understanding.

01:07:41

If I treat the Quran the way I would want the Bible to be treated, then

01:07:47

I will allow it to have a consistent testimony. I believe that I charted out a consistent testimony as to what the

01:07:56

Quran teaches concerning the fact there's only one God. He does not have a wife. He does not have a consort.

01:08:03

He does not have a sahiba. And that becomes the very central aspect.

01:08:11

One of the four ayah of Surah Taliqlas, which is as close as you get to a...

01:08:18

I mean, Muhammad said to quote Surah Taliqlas is to quote a third of the Quran. And what does it say?

01:08:23

Why does it say that? He begitteth not, nor is he begotten. I think I have laid out a clear understanding of what that is.

01:08:31

Now, if what we're going to say tonight is, you can't do that. You have to be able to cut everything up, and there's no context, and there's no consistent teaching from the

01:08:41

Meccan Surahs and the Medinan Surahs, and you can just cut these things apart, and there's nothing about sonship, and you have to look at every single one, and it might be about a completely different group.

01:08:53

You know, maybe it's about a Meccan group that had some son to God and has nothing to do with Christians.

01:08:59

I would suggest that given that there's clearly text specifically about the people of the gospel, the people of the book, that talks about sonship, that it should be very clear when the

01:09:09

Quran is talking about either paganism and its many gods, or when it's talking about Christians, and our belief that the father and the son have eternally existed as father and son.

01:09:22

The son never came into existence as a son. There was no wife. It is a relationship situation.

01:09:28

Shouldn't there be something about that? And if someone simply says, well, you know, we just don't feel that it's necessary to get into that.

01:09:35

We don't need to go to that level. We just need to deal with these other things. If the tables were turned, my

01:09:42

Muslim friends, would you accept that kind of argumentation against your own faith?

01:09:50

We seek consistency. That's what's brought us here this evening, and I'm very thankful that we have gotten a good start in laying out the information that we need to have to be able to understand whether Islam in the

01:10:02

Quran has misrepresented Christianity. Thank you. Now Bassam has an opportunity to provide his rebuttal.

01:10:20

He'll be given 12 minutes. Thank you. Let's go over these points.

01:10:42

Dr. White said that we have to assume that there is one theme running through Surah 5.

01:10:49

Says who? Why can't we treat the issue of Mary being worshipped as a god, or taken as a god, or treated as a god, as one theme, and the

01:10:58

Trinity as another theme? Why is that not possible? Hopefully in the cross -examination, James White would be clear on that issue.

01:11:06

He said that the Quran must identify the three persons of the Trinity. No it doesn't.

01:11:12

The Bible itself does not even clearly define what the Trinity is. The Christian would say we infer from the

01:11:19

Bible that this is what the Trinity is. The Bible nowhere explicitly says that God is one essence, being shared by three persons.

01:11:29

Rather, Christians claim to infer these things. Similarly, Muslims infer from their scriptures that God is one person and he's

01:11:38

Unitarian, and we don't use being or essence as the criteria or factor to determine monotheism.

01:11:48

So Christians would say, since he's one being, that means he's one god. No, we don't say that. We say one person means one god.

01:11:55

If you say more than one person, that makes it polytheistic. That's what Islam believes.

01:12:00

I'm not here to prove that to you today or make an argument for that, but that's what

01:12:06

Islam believes. The reason why Islam keeps saying that Christians believe in polytheism or making utterances of polytheism is because you're saying that God is more than one person.

01:12:20

According to us, that is polytheistic. Now, can Islam make that claim and still understand what you're saying?

01:12:28

I understand what you're saying. God is one being and three persons share that being, share that essence.

01:12:36

I believe that's polytheism. Now, you could disagree with that, and I can make that claim, but that doesn't mean that I misunderstand what you're saying.

01:12:44

Similarly, I said in my opening statement that the Quran could be speaking based on the assumption that by de facto reality, according to it, that this is polytheism.

01:12:57

Dr. White did not tell us why the Quran cannot be communicating with this intent and purpose.

01:13:04

I don't see these passages as illustrating or showing that Islam has misunderstood Christianity.

01:13:11

I'm surprised that Dr. White was saying would you believe in the

01:13:16

Quran that came six centuries later and it just made that claim? Show us the evidence.

01:13:22

That's not the topic for today's discussion. I'm not even going to come here and say prove to me that Trinity is the true concept of monotheism.

01:13:32

Prove to me the Bible is the accurate word of God. We're not here to provide evidences for the veracity and truthfulness of our faith.

01:13:39

We're only here to discuss one question. Has Islam misunderstood Christianity? I hope we stick to that subject tonight.

01:13:48

Dr. White said that the burden of proof is on me to show that Islam accurately represents

01:13:55

Christianity. I'm going to have to disagree with that. I believe that the accusation is coming from Dr.

01:14:00

White's side and I think the burden of proof would be on him. If any of you saw the flyer, you would see that the topic of today's discussion is has

01:14:08

Islam misunderstood Christianity? Dr. White is the one taking the affirmative position saying yes, it has.

01:14:14

I think the burden of proof would be on him. Dr. White brought up the verse 6 -101 about how can

01:14:32

God have a son if he had no consort? I provided an explanation to that at the end of my opening statement but I didn't hear a response to it.

01:14:44

Dr. White said, shouldn't there be something in the Quran related to the eternal begotten son?

01:14:52

The thing is if you look at surah 10, ayah 68, it says how could

01:14:59

God have a son? How could Allah have a son? He is self -sufficient. Now here, the way scholars have understood this passage is that since Allah is one person, he is self -sufficient.

01:15:12

He cannot rely on anyone else. So how could he have a son? I think that's a pretty good,

01:15:17

I think that's hitting the target when it comes to Orthodox Christianity because Christians claim that the three persons in the

01:15:24

Godhead are not independent of one another but they're interdependent upon one another. So this

01:15:29

Quranic verse is saying Allah as one person is independent. So how could he have a son?

01:15:35

So that seems to be addressing the trinity.

01:15:44

Okay, unfortunately my computer just turned off. Let me excuse me.

01:15:58

Really sorry about that. Okay. Dr. White said where is the proof from the

01:16:05

Quran that Allah is one person? Well the thing is, as I said in my opening statement, the

01:16:11

Quran is not the only source of authority when it comes to Islam.

01:16:16

We also have authentic prophetic traditions. So when we look at the authentic and we also have the consensus of scholars.

01:16:24

According to Islam, if all of the scholars agree on a particular point we take that to be infallible because the

01:16:31

Prophet Muhammad said my community will never agree upon an error. So one thing to take into consideration is that no

01:16:38

Muslim scholar would say that God has more than one center of self -consciousness within him.

01:16:45

Secondly, some Muslim scholars have appealed to this tradition which says, this isn't

01:16:52

Sahih Muslim. There is no person more jealous than Allah and there is no person more fond of accepting an excuse than Allah on account of which he has sent messengers announcers of glad tidings and warners.

01:17:04

And no person is fond of praise than Allah on account of which Allah has promised paradise.

01:17:10

So many Muslim scholars have used this hadith to show that Allah is one person. But it comes in a much more clearer narration.

01:17:20

It comes in a very long narration discussing the afterlife. After the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, tells his companions that Allah will gather all the

01:17:29

Muslims and they will look at him on the Day of Judgment. The companion that Prophet Muhammad was speaking to said,

01:17:36

Ya Rasulullah, kaif wa huwa shakhsun wahid wa nahnu mala al ard? O Messenger of Allah, how will that happen when he, referring to Allah, is only one person while we fill the earth?

01:17:48

So it seems pretty clear that Islam teaches that Allah is one person. He talked about the verse where Jesus eating food and how come you don't understand that we believe that God took form of human flesh and that he could eat and drink.

01:18:08

Well firstly, the Quran may very well be directing this verse towards all Christians who claim that Jesus is divine by asking them to contemplate more seriously about what

01:18:17

Islam would view to be a blasphemous idea about God attaining a human nature and doing what humans do, like eating.

01:18:25

The Christian at this point could say that he disagrees with this Quranic argument, but however, this evening's debate is whether Islam has misunderstood

01:18:30

Christianity. And there's no reason to think that the author of the Quran wasn't aware of the Christian belief in the incarnation with Jesus being

01:18:37

God and human at the same time. Secondly, the Quran could have possibly intended this argument only against heretical sects like the monophysites who held the belief that Jesus had one nature with his humanity being absorbed by his deity.

01:18:52

And according to the Encyclopedia of Islam, this sect was prevalent in the

01:18:57

Arabian Peninsula contemporary to Prophet Muhammad's time. So those who claim that Jesus had only one nature and that Jesus was

01:19:04

God have to deal with the problem regarding Jesus eating food. For if he ate food and he only has one nature, which is divine, then surely that nature must be purely human, for God does not eat food.

01:19:22

Now, Dr. White mentioned some passages from the Quran taken as a

01:19:28

God. So it was temporal, but we Orthodox Christians believe that God, that Jesus was the eternal son of God.

01:19:36

Well, the Arabic word that is used in those passages is and it simply means to take or to have or to acquire.

01:19:43

It does not necessarily mean to take a son biologically, though it could mean so depending on context.

01:19:51

Jeffrey Perinder, who was the professor of comparative religion in King's College London, in his book,

01:19:56

Jesus in the Quran, said that these passages, mentioning the word taken as a son, and its derivative, deny that God acquires a son in the course of time, which has been said by adoptionist and Aryan heretics in Christianity, who said that Jesus became or was adopted son of God at his baptism or some other moment.

01:20:16

Furthermore, he argues that none of these passages could be shown to have any clear reference to Orthodox Christian groups and could be assumed to be directed primarily against pagan polytheism, or at the most the adoptionist heresy.

01:20:29

These passages may also apply to those like Marcellus of Ancrea, a 4th century bishop who said that Jesus existed eternally as the

01:20:38

Lagos and only became the son during the incarnation, a belief known as incarnational sonship.

01:20:46

Dr. White seems to take issue with the fact why would the Quran be addressing a heresy that existed a couple of centuries before?

01:20:56

Why not deal with the problem, the contemporary issues that you're facing right now? Well, for example, the prophet

01:21:06

Muhammad, peace be upon him, during his time, he never confronted any major problem of homosexuality or bestiality amongst his community.

01:21:15

Yet, he still condemned it, he still made a big issue of it. So, the thing is that it's possible that someone could revive that heresy again in the future.

01:21:28

Or, another thing is for the Quran to make its stance clear on this heresy, so that if people were to ever ask a question, well, okay, fine, the

01:21:37

Quran condemns the orthodox view, what would be its take on this other view? So, it's possible that there's already some people during the prophet's time who still adhere to those heretical views.

01:21:50

So, we shouldn't be surprised that the Quran would be addressing a heresy, even though it wasn't, it's not in the mainstream

01:21:57

Christian view. The Quran could be addressing the mainstream Christian view, and heretical sects as well.

01:22:07

Okay, I won't have time for what I'm going to say now, so I'll come back and finish off what I'm going to say. Thanks.

01:22:17

Alright, five minutes to try to refocus after we have had something to eat and talk with one another and hopefully get some ideas flowing.

01:22:27

Does Islam misunderstand or misrepresent Christianity? How could we answer that?

01:22:33

Well, obviously there are Muslims today that know what Christians believe. There are still a lot of Muslims today that don't know what

01:22:39

Christians believe, and some very major speakers in the world that gather thousands of Muslims around them, like Zakir Naik, who doesn't know and misrepresents what

01:22:48

Christians believe, and very, very badly. Where does that misrepresentation come from? The question this evening is, does it come from the

01:22:55

Quran? We have been told, well, each one of these passages might mean something else. Well, here's a question

01:23:01

I'm going to be asking Bassam. I'm giving him a heads up here. He can go ahead and be prepared to answer this during cross -examination.

01:23:07

If every one of these texts might mean something other than as I have taken it, and obviously

01:23:12

I can point to various scholars that have understood it as I have, but if each one might be talking about something other than what

01:23:19

I believe, then can I say the Quran does not address what I believe? It does not address the doctrine of the

01:23:25

Trinity as it's been understood? Which text in the Quran do? Because my understanding from the

01:23:32

Sunni scholars that I've listened to is that if I die believing what I believe, I'm going to hell, so I'd like to know which one of these does accurately represent what

01:23:42

I believe. Bassam said, well, I don't think tonight we're talking about accurately representing what Christians believe. Well, what's the opposite?

01:23:49

What would be the best way to win this debate? If the debate is, does Islam misrepresent

01:23:54

Christianity, then what the Muslim can do is say, here's where it correctly represents

01:23:59

Christianity, therefore we win the debate. So, where's the text? Where are the texts that accurately represent what

01:24:05

Christians believe? That's what I want to understand. When we look at Surah 5, and we listen to these words, they have certainly disbelieved who say

01:24:17

Allah is the third of three. Who is that? Can we know?

01:24:23

If it's a matter of disbelief, shouldn't the Quran be clear enough to tell us who this is? They have certainly disbelieved who say

01:24:30

Allah is the third of three and there is no god except one. So clearly it's talking about three gods. So, who was it that were worshipping three gods in the day of Muhammad that he would be refuting here?

01:24:42

And if they do not desist from what they are saying, so this is something that was being said at that time, right?

01:24:48

It's not something from some other time period, is it? There will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

01:24:55

And the very next verse says the Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger.

01:25:01

Why would it say that? If the third of three isn't about the Messiah, and if this isn't about Christians, why make that statement?

01:25:11

Is there not a context that we can follow in the text of the Quran where we can go from one line to another?

01:25:18

Is there not a flow of thought? Can we just simply say, well, you know, that's one ayah, that's another ayah, they're different things.

01:25:25

Most of you know I've debated Shabir Ali a number of times, and I remember years ago listening to him criticizing someone he was debating by saying, you can't treat the

01:25:33

Quran that way, you can't cut it up into little pieces. Just as we look at the Bible, and you say we need to follow the context of the

01:25:40

Bible, you need to do the same thing with the Quran. Well, it would seem to me that that's what we need to do here too.

01:25:46

The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger. Other messengers have passed on before him. His mother was a supporter of truth.

01:25:53

They both used to eat food. Look how we make clear to them the ayat, then look how they are deluded.

01:26:02

If we can't figure out what these words are about, how are these ayat clear? Can someone answer that for me?

01:26:09

I need to know, how is it that Allah can say, look how we make clear to them the signs, then look how they are deluded.

01:26:18

If the assertion that has been made to me hundreds of times by Muslims is that I have been deluded, shouldn't this be clear enough to explain my delusion to me without it being, well, it might mean this, and maybe

01:26:33

Muhammad understood monophysitism. Really? Didn't even have access to the

01:26:41

New Testament, and yet he understood monophysitism? That kind of interpretation makes me go, how can you make such clear and bold statements as a conclusion about Christianity when

01:26:54

I read these words and whoever wrote these words did not understand what

01:27:00

I believe. If he's talking about me, and if he's not talking about me, then who is he talking about?