Several Great Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. All right, we've got to tell people not to post funny things in the channel, right, as the microphone's opening up.

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Lane just posted on the channel, these boots were made for walking, that's just what they'll do. And one of these days,

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I'm going to walk all over Nebraska where I debated Shabbir Ali, he's dead now. The reason that's funny is because, well, there's big happenings down in Texas.

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Yes, indeed, the Arlington Baptist College, I will be, I will have to confess, never heard of the place, but there's a place called

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Arlington Baptist College. Press release, May 17th, 2011,

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I should do a hat tip to Wonky, since he is the one who posted this in channel just recently.

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Arlington Baptist College calls new professors, approves new program in worship ministry and calls Ergin Kanner as provost and vice president of academic affairs.

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The Arlington Baptist College announced a number of new initiatives at the annual World Baptist Fellowship meeting at the

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Texas campus today. World Baptist Fellowship, that means no longer Southern Baptist. Upon the recommendation of President D .L.

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Moody, the board of directors voted unanimously to call Dr. Ergin Kanner as provost and vice president of academic affairs and Professor of Arabic, no, that's not in there,

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I'm sorry. Along with his administrative duties, Kanner will also teach theology, church history, and apologetics.

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Founded by Dr. J. Frank Norris in 1939 as the Fundamental Bible Baptist Institute, FBBI, that didn't sound good, did it?

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The Arlington Baptist College is affiliated with the World Baptist Fellowship, WBF. In addition to Dr.

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Norris, the school has been led by such Baptist luminaries as Drs. Louis Entzminger, Earl K.

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Oldham, I remember Doug Oldham, but I don't remember, Wayne Martin, and David Bryant. OK, Dr.

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Moody was elected president in 2009. In further action, that's

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OK, we don't need to worry about that. In presenting Kanner to the full board, President Moody noted,

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I have the utmost confidence in Dr. Ergin Kanner. I believe that he has the abilities, the wisdom and passion to enhance the work and ministry of Arlington Baptist College as we prepare a generation of giants for Jesus Christ.

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He shares the values that I have for biblical authority, evangelistic fervor and godly example.

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I am excited to welcome him to our administrative team. I am thrilled to be joining the

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Arlington Baptist College, Kanner said. This is a historic institution founded by one of Christianity's most courageous voices,

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Dr. J. Frank Norris. The vision of President Moody is profoundly exciting to train a generation of Christian warriors who are prepared for ministry on every level, intellectually and spiritually.

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And a little bit later on, it says that Kanner has been teaching, oh, here we go, raised as the son of a devout

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Muslim. Kanner converted to Christianity along with his two brothers. His younger brother,

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Dr. Emir Kanner, is president of the Truett McConnell Baptist College in Cleveland, Georgia. He made sure that they got the right bio this time.

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That's very good. It's no longer a Muslim scholar. It's no longer born in Istanbul and trained in jihad and all the rest of that stuff.

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I wonder why, if we're just a bunch of bloggers without lives living in our parents' basements,

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I wonder why his story has changed so much. Well, you might say, well, at least he's not lying now.

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Yeah, but he still hasn't admitted that he was. That's the problem, folks. Anyways, Kanner has been teaching at Liberty University since 2003, didn't mention being demoted from president of that institution for having lied through his teeth, and has co -authored such books as Unveiling Islam, Why Churches Die and When Worldviews Collide.

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He also co -edited the popular encyclopedia of apologetics with Ed Hiddleston with Harvest House. Evangelist Tim Lee said,

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I have learned my good friend Dr. Ergen -Kanner has accepted the position of Executive Vice President and Provost at Arlington Baptist College in Arlington, Texas.

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I am excited for Arlington Baptist College. They could not have made a better choice. I believe Ergen will have a very positive impact and that it will be realized immediately.

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Both Arlington Baptist College and Dr. Ergen -Kanner have my support. Well, that's good. Arlington Baptist College is located on 35 acres in West Arlington, Texas, and the campus is recognized as a

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Texas historic landmark. It is accredited through the Association of Biblical Higher Education and is certified by the state of Texas for teacher training.

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So there you go. I have been told just last week that Kanner only had a limited time at Liberty.

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I had expected him to end up at Veritas, but it might be difficult to get funding for him there. But evidently the folks at Arlington Baptist College are far enough removed from the world of the internet to not really be aware of what he's all about and what they're inheriting.

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So there you go. Interesting stuff. I get down to Texas once in a while, but then again,

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I almost got to Lynchburg once, too. But oh well, we'll see what happens. I have been watching with interest, and they haven't uploaded today's video yet.

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I forget who it was that linked this and channel, but Ezekiel 33, then the number three in YouTube, is some fellow at Family Radio.

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And he has, to use the terminology of Napoleon Dynamite, he has video skills.

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Whoever this is, is really good with video. It's sad to see someone's talents being abused in that way.

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But he's doing a Harold Camping countdown to judgment. Now I would highly recommend someone in channel, somebody out there,

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I may get around to it this afternoon myself. All of these should be downloaded and archived right now.

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Maybe during the program even, somebody. You really need this.

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Someone even suggested, in looking at the quality of these things and the questions that are being asked and stuff, you sort of wonder if maybe this is a documentary for exactly that purpose.

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That is, starting the 22nd of May, to have closed every single door on any excuses that Harold Camping might offer.

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This is behind -the -scenes stuff and everything. It is quite eye -opening, like I said, very high quality, and very disturbing, to me anyway.

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I want to play the current one. It's actually a day behind right now.

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It should be down to four. Should be four days left until Judgment Day. This is the last one that was uploaded, however, called

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Five Days Left Until Judgment Day. Two hundred million saved. And so I'm going to go ahead and play this and make some comments on it.

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Again, if you want to watch it, because it is a video, Ezekiel, and then 30 and 3 are spelled out.

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So 33. Then the number three is the channel, and it should pull it up there.

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I think I put Harold Camping Countdown, and it came up in one of the playlists down below fairly quickly.

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So high -quality stuff. Let's at least take a listen to the

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Day Five, Five Days Until Judgment Day. My name is Guy Von Horinga, and I'm a webmaster here at the

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Internet Department at Family Hi, you've reached Guy Von Horinga. Please leave your name and a brief message, and remember to seek ye the

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Lord while ye may be found, because on May 21st, the Holy God will bring judgment.

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And at that point, it'll be too late. Have a great day. Bye -bye. Record your message.

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Hold the tone. The message you're hearing. There's only a few days left, and it's... A car is...

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We live in a world now where it's... There's so many mediums of advertisement. There's so many ways to reach people, and a car is another way, because God set it up so now we have traffic.

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And I never thought I'd be saying it, but something like L .A. traffic or Bay Area traffic is a good thing now, because we can now reach people when we're in traffic and warn them that way.

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You know, God worked it out so that I would have a reliable car, and I don't own it all the way, but I mean, I'm paid up until May 21st, and I don't think this car will have any value after that.

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You know, there's... The roads aren't gonna be drivable, and this car certainly won't be drivable after an earthquake.

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I'm sure it'll be stuck in a ditch somewhere. So... Wake up.

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This is going to happen. May 21. Judgment Day will begin.

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Now, what is your question? Um, I just need a clarification from you, uh, because you have said something regarding the, uh, the number that will be saved will be 200 million.

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It certainly is the case, because, uh, there's only a remnant that are being raptured, and all those who are not caught up are those who are under the wrath of God, and they will die in the

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Day of Judgment. And do you personally feel you are one out of, one of the 200 million, one of God's elect?

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The focus is way too heavy on me, way too heavy, and I'm gonna stop it.

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It's, uh, it's, uh, I, and, and I, besides, I'm getting really weary with it all, but it's really been a grind.

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True that there's a lot of attention on you, but I would think that that helps in getting the message out, because really isn't it the message?

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It does, but not the last couple days, because, you know, the message has to be digested, and it's, uh,

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I'm, let's put it this way,

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I kind of feel like I've had it. When I look at that number 200 million in Revelation 9, and the number of the army of the horsemen were 200 ,000 ,000, and I heard that number of them.

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Curious verse. I don't get dogmatic at all about that, that that is an actual number that God will save out of the human race, although it is put in such a way that it could be an actual number.

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And the math works if, as you say, that the churches are apostate, because if they were not apostate, then it would be far more than 200 million.

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Oh, well, if the churches had a salvation plan, for example, that was faithful to the word of God, the whole scenario would change.

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Members of churches that feature the Lord Jesus Christ, and who are convinced that they are the ones that ought to be raptured and caught up to be with Christ, and be the inheritors of the new heaven and the new earth, but the fact is that they are not children of God at all.

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They thought they were, but they aren't, and they're left behind. They'll be weeping and gnashing their teeth, and then they die, and there's no more judgment.

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The wages of sin is death. They'll never have conscious existence again. So the

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Lord has been very gracious to them. Good evening, Mr. Harold Campion. How are you?

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Very well, thank you. Good. I'm really looking forward to next

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Saturday. I really believe in judgment day, May 21, 2011, and I pray

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God that I'll be saved too. The 200 million scares a lot of people because they think of their friends, their family, their loved ones.

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Do you also think about your friends, family, and loved ones? You have five children.

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Do you think they're all God's elect? No, no, not at all. I have many loved ones that I'm praying for.

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Again, it's a small percentage of the whole. If God saves 200 million people, that would mean that one out of about 70 people is going to be saved.

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I mean, that's like winning a free drink from Pepsi. You know, it's just the chances are so... You have unique ways of putting things, guy.

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No, the Lord is merciful. It shows the mercy of the Lord. On the other hand, 200 million could be a symbolical number because two signifies those who bring the gospel, and 100 is completeness, the completeness of those who bring the gospel.

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Maybe it's both. It's not out of focus with what could be very literal.

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The fact is there's not one person, not one, in the whole world that deserves salvation.

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And the 200 million that rule in the new heaven and new earth, what will the new heaven and new earth look like?

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The slightest idea. All I know is that God has created this beautiful earth and all the millions of wonderful life forms and all the beautiful flowers and the tasty fruit and you name it.

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He's the same God. He'll speak and he could have a world that is 10 times more beautiful.

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I don't know what it'll be. I'm feeling stressed, overwhelmed. Five days.

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Yeah, well, I am stressed and overwhelmed, but I'm so glad that it's my game.

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It is God's game. He is in charge, and I find an enormous amount of security in knowing that he does everything perfectly.

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And it's not my program. I'm just a humble servant, and I don't have any authority.

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God has all the authority. So there you go. There's just so much in that.

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And again, it's very well edited, good camera shots, editing, slicing stuff together.

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I mean, but look, one of the things that bothers many of us as we think about what is going to happen and the failure of another false teacher, another false prophecy.

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He continues to, I think, let's put it this way. He uses our language. He came out of a

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CRC church. I found it very interesting yesterday. I listened to a fellow on KFAX.

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He has a radio program in KFAX in the San Francisco area. I think it's

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San Francisco area. And I listen online, so I don't know. But anyway, he was the lead elder in the church that Camping left, the

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Reformed Bible Church, that was formed after Camping was kicked out of the CRC for his initial 1994 teaching.

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And so he was a follower of Harold Camping initially. And it was very interesting to hear him, for example, describing

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Campingites, the followers, the kind of people that follow Harold Camping. And he even had a Campingite call up.

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And at one point, I forget how he phrased it, but the guy said, well,

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I don't understand. And his response was, yes, I know you don't. In other words, there is, it has been my experience.

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There is a kind of person that is attracted to Harold Camping. And I have said many times, these are the, they tend to be troublemakers.

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They tend to be somewhat gnostic in their world view. They're sort of loners.

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They're not good at fellowship. But they want to believe that they have an inside track and knowledge nobody else has, basically.

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And it was fascinating listening to his story. But what bothers, I think, a lot of us as we listen to this man is that he continues to use our language.

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Now, he's abandoned a lot of what he used to believe. I remember last, sometime late 2009,

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I was still thinking about updating Dangerous Airwaves at that time. I just didn't get around to doing it. I started on it, got most of the appendix

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I wanted to add done, actually. But it just never worked out. Yeah, a little late on it now.

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But I was listening to some open forums, which is a painful thing to do.

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Even on high speed, it's a painful thing to do while riding. And he was in this one program just saying, you know, we used to believe in total depravity, and now we know that that's not the case.

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You know, he has abandoned so much. But you still have this weird, imbalanced, unorthodox

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Calvinism, where there's not much discussion of the election of God or anything like that anymore.

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But you do have this, you know, I hope God saves me.

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You know, God has to save you. You can't do any of it on your own, etc., etc. And, you know, it's impossible to combine

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Biblical Calvinism with this type of, well, the main thing you need to be believing now is my message.

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May 21st, you've got to believe that. You don't believe that, you're not going to heaven. So it's no longer, you know, personal faith in Christ or anything like that.

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It's believing what Harold Camping is saying. And even though, you know, in this video you saw him, oh,

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I'm tired, this is way too much focus upon me. Well, of course it's a focus upon you.

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You're the center of all this stuff. Nobody else came up with this wacky idea.

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You are a cult leader. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to mention this, aside from the fact this is the week.

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We have a historic opportunity here. I mean, you know,

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I've often thought, what would it have been like to have been in upstate

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New York in 1830 when Mormonism started? Would we have recognized, would we have even given

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Joseph Smith a second thought? Probably would have dismissed him as a kook without any idea of the impact that that man would have down the road.

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And how could we know? I mean, kooks are on every street corner when it comes to religion.

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And what makes one have an impact and 10, 13, 14 million followers 150 years later over against another one that no one ever gives a second thought to?

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You know, only eternity will reveal the reasons for all of that. But we are literally watching the growth, the explosion of popularity, and then the death of a cult in our own day.

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Now, just as the failed Millerite movement in 1844, you know, if the day after the

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Millerite movement, after Miller's predictions failed, I would have been one of the first ones to say, well, so much for that.

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Let's move on. But out of that movement, you got both Seventh -day

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Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses started. Think of how much damage has been done by that. Out of a failed prophetic movement.

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So I'm not saying that something's going to grow out of camping -ism, especially because to get anything started, especially out of a failure, you need to have an incredibly charismatic second -generation leader.

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And I don't see that, but who knows? Who knows? The point is, we are seeing right now, right in front of us, what false prophecy and cult -ism looks like.

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And what bothers a lot of us is it grew out of ground that we would not expect it to grow out of.

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But the fact of the matter is, if you do not love the truth, and you do not value the truth, and you do not hold it in high esteem, you'll be caused to love a lie.

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Even if you keep speaking many truths in the process. And I just know a lot of folks in our neck of the woods,

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I don't mean geographically, I mean theologically, that hear this man speaking, and they, look, you know, years and years ago, he was saying a lot of true things.

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Now, from what I've been told, he's never been solid in exegesis. And that, to me, that's it.

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I mean, that is, there's, that's the most important aspect of it.

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Right there. He's never been solid in exegesis. That's not his, he's always had these numerological, allegorical, you know, yeah, you heard it in there.

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Well, two is the number of people bringing the gospel, and why isn't 12 the number of people bringing the gospel?

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Why isn't 70 the number of people bringing the gospel? I mean, you can come up with anything. Why isn't three? You know, all this stuff just comes out of his imagination, and he, to him, that's the

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Word of God. To question that is to question the Word of God. We heard that in the debate that I did with him. It comes out in everything, and these poor people that are following him just don't realize that their faith is completely in a man.

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It's not in the Bible in any way, shape, or form. In any way, shape, or form. Which is one of the tragedies here.

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Because you look at this young fellow. Ah, my car's paid up. You know, he's got a much nicer car than I do. It's paid up through May 21st, and it's going to be worth us after that.

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Well, I feel like contacting him. Hey, you know, I will gladly get the window scraped and get that May 21st stuff off.

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I'll take the car. I can fit my bike in that much easier than I can in my little Nissan Versa, you know? Nice little

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SUV out there, and I'll be happy to take it from him. But I wonder if he's going to be able to continue to afford that car since he's working for Family Radio, and I don't know if Family Radio is going to be able to survive this kind of mortal blow that it's going to be delivered to it by the stroke of midnight on May 22nd.

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So, anyway, it just strikes me that as we listen to this man, we need to recognize why we especially find him somewhat fascinating.

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Because of the fact that he still uses a lot of our language. And yet here is a homegrown cult, worldwide cult.

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I don't know how many people. I'm looking at the numbers here. Now, this means nothing. It means absolutely nothing.

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But looking at this playlist, the views are in the low 1 ,000s.

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You know, let's see, the highest number

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I see is 5 ,739 views for Herald Camping 10 days left until Judgment Day. Let me see, 4 ,000, 3 ,000, yeah, 5 ,000 is the most.

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Okay, you know, does that mean anything? I don't think so. I don't know. We just don't know how many followers this guy has around the world.

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But you are having an opportunity here to see the death throes coming up this weekend.

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Or will it be death throes? I don't know. I don't know, but I just don't think almost anybody back in the days, maybe, was it

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Edwin Howe? I forget the guy's first name, but Howe. The first guy who wrote a book against Mormonism.

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E .D. Howe, I still remember what the E stood for. But E .D.

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Howe, you know, I wonder how many people thought he was nuts. Why worry about something like this?

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Why, it's just some little group, nothing to ever come of it. And yet how much very important information we get from his early, early examination of Mormonism.

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And, you know, a lot of folks looked at dangerous airwaves like, you know, what are you wasting your time for? But you never know.

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You never know. So there are some thoughts. You might want to check out Ezekiel 33 .3's

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channel on YouTube and keep up with those. In fact, I'm refreshing. I'll refresh here.

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Which, unfortunately, with my new setup on Cox, will take a few minutes while I just sit here and talk.

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Waitingforgoogle .com. I'm sorry? No, it has nothing to do with that at all.

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It works. The same thing happens on other stuff. And see if he's, because it had been over 24 hours since the last one.

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And so maybe they will come up with the... My name is Guy Von Horinga. No, that's the same one. And I'm with the Department of Family Rating.

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Yeah, we can turn that off. Same one. Hasn't been updated yet. So I don't think Guy is the one who's doing it.

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Somebody else is doing it. But we're still only at number five there. So I might refresh it before the end of the program.

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But your thoughts, 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341.

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Or dividing .line on Skype. Dividing .line on Skype.

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Maybe some of your thoughts on last week's programs. The last program we had was a really fast program with Dr.

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Michael Brown. And, in fact, we may have some comments on that coming up here.

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In fact, we're going to go ahead and go to the phone lines. And we only have one call on line right now.

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So if you want to get in, now's your time to do it. 877 -753 -3341.

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Dividing .line via Skype. And let's talk with Alex. Hello, Alex.

28:33

Hi. Hi. Hi. I just wanted to make a couple comments on the video that I saw on YouTube that you were talking about the gay agenda.

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Okay. Is it a recent video, I would assume? Yeah. It was uploaded last week.

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Okay. Okay. I think I remember which one you're talking about. Yes. The ban on gay marriage?

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Yes. Oh, you were talking about how the gay agenda is going after children, trying to indoctrinate children.

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And it's not like that at all. It's just about education. It's just about education.

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Yeah. Educating kindergartners about homosexuality is just education?

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It's telling them that it exists, that it's out there. Isn't that the parents' duty? Some parents don't do that.

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So it's the state's job to introduce kindergartners to homosexuality as education?

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I think the age is debatable. You should introduce it. I still think it needs to be introduced.

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Uh -huh. Uh -huh. How about pedophilia? Should you talk to them about that?

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Yeah. Intergenerational intimacy, as those who propose it and promote it view it.

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That's out there, too. That's not acceptable within our culture.

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Oh, so our culture determines what we should teach the children? Yeah. That's where morals come from, is our culture?

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A lot of them, yeah. Really? So when the German culture identified

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Judaism as a disease, that was okay because that's what the culture said, right? No, but that disagreed with other cultures.

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That disagreed with other cultures. So it's not what our culture believes, it's what all cultures together believe?

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Our culture disagreed with the mass murder of people, so we went after that. Oh. So what's right is determined by who has the bigger army?

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Well, then we can go together, right? Alex, what if the Germans had won, and their culture then pre -ominated?

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That would make it right, right? Well, that's why we have a government to where we can vote on different political views and things like that.

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Do you think Adolf Hitler allowed people to vote on different political views? No, not

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Hitler, but our current culture does. Okay, but Alex, what I'm pointing out to you is that you have absolutely positively no meaningful moral foundation.

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If you say that what is right and wrong is what our culture thinks, then if Hitler had won, then what they did to the

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Jews would be right, according to your thinking. And that makes absolutely no sense. There's lots of other groups.

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There's lots of other groups what? That he went after. Yeah, so?

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It included the Gays. Yeah, so? Do you agree with that? So if he won, if his armies defeated our armies, so that his government became predominant rather than the other way, and if your system is right, that morals are determined by what a culture believes, then those things would be right by your own reasoning, right?

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No, there's a difference between culture and government. The people would disagree with the government and therefore change the government.

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Really? Have you read much in history, Alex? Do you have any idea how governments work when it comes to this matter, and how many governments?

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Do you realize in Syria right now, the government represents less than 10 % of the population, and rules over 90 % of the population, and thousands are dying as a result.

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Yet that hasn't changed anything, has it? Well, if it's going to change, it's not going to stay like that forever.

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Ah, I see. So that's how we determine what's right and wrong, is just by what the consensus of cultures that change over time is.

32:50

So right and wrong changes over time, right? Right and wrong doesn't change over time?

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No, it does change. Okay. There's no absolute right or wrong. There is no absolute right or wrong, I see.

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The closest thing we have to absolute right or wrong is what is best for human society in general.

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What progresses us as a human society. And how do you determine that? Because the

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Russian view of that is different than the French view of that, which is different than all sorts of different views as to what's best for a society.

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But what actually works, works. Oh, so it's what works? Yeah. Oh, it's what works, so it's a pragmatic thing.

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I mean, the Roman Empire really worked well for a thousand years. So that's what we should have stuck with, right?

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If it works. Well, no, it didn't work because it failed. Well, after a thousand years, the

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United States has only been around for 200 some odd. Society is constantly changing and evolving. Society is constantly...

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It never stays the same. Okay, so 40 years ago, we had people coming along and start promoting homosexuality.

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And right now, we're at the exact same state with those who are promoting intergenerational intimacy.

34:15

So if 40 years from now, those who promote intergenerational intimacy have managed to get people in Hollywood to put favorable characters into movies.

34:26

And there's a Stonewall thing that happens someplace. And 40 years from now, intergenerational intimacy has now become a popular thing in our society.

34:36

Then it will be okay, according to your thinking, right? I'm not going to get into that because that's not what

34:43

I'm talking about. No, you're not going to get into that because it totally demonstrates that your position is incoherent and irrational.

34:50

That's why you won't get into it. There's the only reason you won't get into it, Alex, is because your system makes no sense.

34:58

No, how is it different? How is it different? The people who are into intergenerational intimacy say they were born that way.

35:06

That it is innate in them. That that is a part of who they are. You are denying them their civil rights.

35:14

You are denying them their right to happiness. You are denying them their right to fulfillment.

35:19

Who do you think you are, Alex? I don't have an opinion on that subject, but I do have an opinion on homosexuality.

35:28

Yes, and we've heard it. Thank you, Alex, for your phone call today. There you go, folks. There is the essence of the secular mind.

35:38

Incoherent. Incapable of even reasoning on the foundations of its assertions.

35:46

Wow. Amazing. There it is. But, folks, that's what we deal with in our society.

35:53

And you try to bring reasoning to bear, and what do you get? Well, I'm not going to...

36:00

That's just... There you go. Let's...

36:05

Boy, it's been a while since we've heard here. If this is who I think it is, let's talk with Pierre. Hi, Pierre.

36:11

Hi. Hi. Long time no hear. That's right. Especially with this topic.

36:18

I'm sorry? Especially with this topic. Yeah, I guess I'm not so much talking about this topic, although maybe in an indirect sense.

36:26

I listened to your... I'm not sure whether it was a sermon or talk that you gave to your church, and you posted on your website.

36:36

Right, on Genesis 19. On Genesis 19. And I was intrigued by it, because I've always been intrigued by this, and I wanted to ask just your opinion about the two angels that appeared, or who came to visit

36:52

Lot. I get the impression from reading the story that these were physical individuals.

36:59

Well, there were three men that appeared to Abraham. One was Yahweh, and there were two angels. So, yes, they...

37:05

That would be Chapter 18. Right. And then Chapter 19, of course, is where the... I presume it's the same two angels, the same two men...

37:12

It is. ...that were with Yahweh, and who dined, interestingly enough, with Abraham.

37:22

He prepared lamb for them, and bread, and they ate. Yep. And so, I'm wondering, how does that fit in with the traditional

37:31

Christian view of God being a person as a spirit? Well, God certainly has the ability to take on human form, should

37:39

He choose to do so. It's called a theophany, or an angelophany, as it occurs there. Angels certainly have that capacity as well, given that one, for example, wrestles with a man at one point, and engages in warfare, in the killing of the

37:56

Assyrians at another point in the Old Testament. The question has never been God's ability to take on human form.

38:02

The question, Pierre, is, is God limited to human form? Does God have a body of flesh and bones as tangible as any man's, and that that isn't part of His essence?

38:11

That is what the Bible denies, because His essence is one of spirit. He is able to enter into His own physical creation as He chooses to do so, but He is in no way, shape, or form limited to that.

38:21

That is not how He became a God. There is no progression to Godhood, and et cetera, et cetera.

38:27

So, Christian theologians have always recognized God's ability, in light of the

38:33

Incarnation especially, to either, in a very unique way, by taking on a true human nature, as Jesus Christ did, to enter into His creation, or in a temporary fashion, to take on the form of man, even a physical form visible to man, which

38:50

He does in a number of places in the Old Testament. Yeah. Well, that sort of seemed to be the impression that I got, for instance, from Dr.

38:57

J. Vernon McGee, whom I've listened to in the past, when he talked about this topic here, which always kind of troubled me a little bit from the standpoint of your traditional views, that this is a traditional

39:08

Christianity. When our Lord appeared to the 12 or 11 disciples, or apostles, in the

39:14

Upper Room, one of the proofs that he used to establish the fact that He was the resurrected

39:21

Lord, he not only had them touch Him, but He ate food to demonstrate that He had a physical body, that He was the resurrected

39:29

Lord. And one of the things that he says, you know, a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see me have.

39:37

Of course, there's a rather obvious context here. They had seen Him die.

39:42

I'm sorry? They had seen Him die, and therefore, they said, He is a phantasma, a ghost.

39:51

And he says, No, I am not. I have actually risen from the dead. Here is the evidence thereof.

39:57

You can see that this body is the same body, though in a resurrected form, that I had before.

40:04

I am not merely a phantasma. So, the context, again, is demonstration of the reality of the resurrection to people who had known

40:14

Him in His physical existence and were well aware of His crucifixion and His death.

40:22

And nobody survives crucifixion, so that's why he showed them

40:28

His body in that way. Now, the other issue along that same line was the fact that the

40:34

Jehovah's Witnesses believed that when Christ was raised that He was only,

40:40

I guess, a spirit being, and that when

40:45

He appeared to the twelve or the eleven disciples, He had only temporarily taken on a physical body and then cast it off again.

40:55

And so it sounds to me like what you're saying goes along with what they believe. Only if you are willing to just completely ignore everything

41:03

I've said, Pierre. Well, I haven't ignored, but I think the point being is that you're saying that God can take on a physical body whenever He wants and then just get rid of it when

41:13

He doesn't need it anymore. And you're ignoring, and you're, well, okay,

41:18

Pierre. I appreciate the call. I'll go ahead and answer that off the air. Obviously, the absurdity with the comparison is, as I pointed out, these are the disciples of Jesus who have walked with Him and talked with Him.

41:32

They saw His, they knew what He looked like, they knew what His body looked like, and they knew of His death, and now they need to know of His resurrection.

41:41

And, of course, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus took different forms, did not have a spiritual body, and hence there is no parallel.

41:50

And to even attempt to create a parallel, to me, is just, well, it's not even close.

41:56

Okay, I'm being told I need to talk to Sean. Hello, Sean. Hey, Dr.

42:02

White, thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir. I had a question. I came across a verse on an

42:09

Armenian website that they used as a proof text for losing one's salvation.

42:16

They cited Exodus 32 -33, and I was just wondering, is that actually referring to the

42:24

Book of Life in that passage? And if so, does it imply that certain names may be in the

42:31

Book of Life at one time, but then later removed from it? Well, the problem with all of these types of arguments is, you're going to an

42:44

Old Testament text and going, well, this might refer to that, and if that's the case, then this might mean that.

42:50

Why is it that people won't go to the central text that specifically addresses a subject and do so with clarity?

42:58

It's like when Roman Catholics go to Jesus' statement that wisdom will be justified by her children, to try to build a doctrine of justification out of a statement like that, rather than going to two or three chapters in a row that are all about what justification means and how a person is justified.

43:17

I've never understood it. Obviously, it seems that what's being referred to here is the

43:24

Book of Life, because he will be blotted out of that book, a person who sins against God.

43:31

It's talking about the covenant people of God, and the Lord said to Moses, whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book, but now go lead the people to the place which

43:39

I have spoken to you, etc., etc. This is talking about the fact that, of course, under the

43:45

Old Covenant, do these things and you shall live, transgress these things and you shall die. The very fact that someone would have to go to this, and then

43:56

I would love to ask them the question, okay, when Jesus says, specifically talking about his purpose, why he's come down from heaven, and that is that he's come down from heaven to do the

44:11

Father's will for him. And what's the Father's will for him? That of all that's been given to him, he lose nothing but raise it up on the last day.

44:18

Now, here you have inter -Trinitarian communication. You have a revelation of why

44:24

Christ has come, what his power is, what his capacity is, and that he will not lose any that the

44:31

Father gives to him, but will raise it up on the last day. What's being raised up the last day in the Book of John? Receiving eternal life.

44:37

I mean, glorious text like that. I would love to ask these folks, so what do you do with that? And the handstands and handsprings and everything else that's done to try to get around those clear statements that are specifically on the topic.

44:52

That is one of the clearest indications of what you've really got going on is instead of going to the clear didactic portions where you have a flow of context, you don't have to be going, well, it uses this term, and it might be this thing over here, and it might refer to that over there, but there's not a lot in the context that really tells us.

45:13

It's sort of a passing statement. But I'm going to say it's this and then build my theology of that and then go over to the big, long, chapter -long discussions and force what

45:24

I've come up with from someplace else onto that. That is the essence of eisegesis.

45:29

That's the essence of sub -biblical theology, and that's the whole problem.

45:36

That's why we need discernment. A lot of us can sit around and go, boy, I wonder how anybody could so lack discernment that they could follow

45:43

Harold Campbell. Well, okay, I can see that, but especially in our information age today where there's quote -unquote websites, we see this on a website and see that on a website.

45:55

Websites, there was once a day where at least book publishing, there was a process you had to go through to get something published that at least somewhat increased the possibility that what you were saying had some kind of meaning to it or something like that.

46:11

That's not the case anymore. Anybody with a computer and an Internet connection can say anything they want on the Internet now.

46:17

And it would be good if people would learn, I'm not talking about you here, but I'm just using this as an example, to look at things like this and go, okay, here's someone saying, whoever is sinning against me,

46:29

I will blot out of my book. Okay, that means you can lose your salvation. Okay, so one text, and you want to back up and you want to try to read around it and go, okay, is that what this discussion is about?

46:46

Because when you actually look back upon it, you actually discover that this is in the context of Moses interceding for his people.

46:58

And he's interceding because they have sinned. Now, that would assume then, if we're going to make an application into the new covenant, that all of the people of Israel represent all of the redeemed.

47:11

But we already know that's not true. Paul had talked to us about the fact that what is the example of Israel for us?

47:18

That many died in the wilderness because of unbelief. So the whole presupposition to it of importing it in is destroyed by the context immediately.

47:29

And hopefully people will look at something like that and go, well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. How about we start with clear passages that lay out the foundation of what salvation is, what it's based upon, what is

47:41

God doing? And that's just not what you get in the vast majority of material out there. And really,

47:47

Sean, the thing to keep in mind is I would suggest this to anybody.

47:55

Salvation is how God glorifies himself in Jesus Christ.

48:01

It is about God. And when you encounter any website or anybody who is promoting a perspective that is primarily based upon what man does, not upon what

48:13

God does to glorify himself, just move on. Don't bother bookmarking it. Just move on.

48:19

Because fundamentally, they have abandoned the central aspect of divine revelation to begin with.

48:26

And you do that, and you've wiped out about 90 % of what's out there on the Internet right now. You really do.

48:32

It's almost like they have to do a lot of juggling to keep their theology in the air. And I was confused, too, because, like you said, what about all the other verses that are clear out there about God's purpose in Christ?

48:46

Well, remember, everybody always says that, but demonstrating it is the issue.

48:51

And it's not just simply, what about all the verses? What I was saying is, what about the clear didactic portions of Scripture where you have this specific subject addressed over the course of a long enough context that allows you to define words, to identify arguments, to identify the flow of thought?

49:09

This type of thing takes a text where God is talking to Moses about destroying the people of Israel, and Moses has interceded for them, etc.,

49:19

etc., and extends it out and makes application to something that's not even in the context.

49:26

It's not even what it's talking about. That's the kind of thing that unfortunately fills the

49:31

Internet. It's all over the place. And when you can learn to identify that kind of thinking and that kind of perspective, it will help out a lot.

49:40

Hey, Sean, I'm not sure what's going on, but the phone lines are going nuts, so I'm going to need to try to get to some of these before we get going.

49:48

Thanks for your call, man. All right. Thank you for calling. Have a good one. Thanks for taking the call. Bye. All right. Bye -bye. Okay, let's talk to Elias.

49:57

Hello, Elias. Hello, Elias. Okay, I don't have

50:04

Elias. All right. Okay. And let's look at the next one here.

50:12

And let's talk to Matt. Hi, Matt. Hello, do you not have the pod up?

50:20

Is the thing pressed correctly? Hello, Matt. Okay, I'm going to put

50:28

Matt back on hold. Maybe you can find Matt. Let's just keep trying here because the lines seem to be filled, but I'm not hearing anybody.

50:37

Let's talk to Rick. Rick? Hey, I'm lucky number three. Hey, there you go. Yeah. Hi, Dr.

50:44

White. I just had kind of an interesting question for you. I didn't exactly know how to tell your call screener what the nature of it was, but I'm sure that you've met a lot of people in your ministry that have wanted to profess

51:03

Christianity and say, yes, I'm a Christian, I'm a follower of Jesus, and I'm gay at the same time.

51:10

Yes. And from my experience now, I mean I have kind of an interesting story from my own life, but without getting into that,

51:20

I've had a lot of friends that would ask me how do I reconcile my feelings and what's born into me, and I've kind of come to the conclusion,

51:33

I just want to get your thoughts on this, but I've kind of been to the point where I've had to tell a friend, you know, if you're just, it comes down to kind of a choice that I had to make where it comes down to basically do you want what you want or do you want what

51:52

God wants? And if you're going to call yourself a Christian and you're going to profess

51:58

Christ as your Lord and your Savior, that could mean, you know, I'm not going to say that Jesus can't, you know, heal you and completely change your mind and your affections, but maybe that means you stay with the affections that you have and you have to learn to be celibate and sacrifice.

52:17

Maybe that's your cross to bear, as it were. Yeah. Well, let me just address that very, very briefly.

52:23

No one is denying that there are people who experience same -sex attraction. All right?

52:29

There is no question that there are people who experience this. There can be many, many reasons for this.

52:36

Very, very often we can identify some of these reasons in childhood and things like that. Without going into all of that, there are people who experience same -sex attraction the same way that there are people who experience an almost overwhelming desire to commit adultery, even within marriage.

52:53

There are people who have an extremely hard time controlling their thoughts. There are people who steal things.

53:01

They have a hard time just not taking other people's property. There are people who have a propensity toward pride, toward arrogance, toward anger, toward jealousy.

53:11

There are all sorts of propensities that we living in a fallen world experience, and each person has their own set of besetting sins that they are to deal with.

53:25

There's no question about any of that. What makes the homosexual subject so strange is that you have people who, in experiencing these things, go to the point of identifying themselves on the basis of those desires, and then want to identify themselves as Christians based upon the possession of those desires.

53:52

So it would be directly parallel to having people saying, look,

53:59

God made me with the temper that I have, and I get angry easily, and that's my gift from God, and so I am an angry

54:09

Christian. And it's wrong of you to say that I need to be something other than that, because God made me this way.

54:15

I am an angry Christian. It kind of reminds me of that congressman that you brought this up on your show last week, the congressman who said, how many more gay people have we got to treat before we know that he wants them around?

54:28

Or maybe it's just that these people are really choosing to indulge themselves to the point where they're actually giving over to what their desires are.

54:40

Right. What happens is that most people who are angry do not give themselves over to a self -identification as an angry

54:49

Christian, or as an adulterous Christian, or as a dishonest

54:55

Christian, or as a gluttonous Christian. We don't have entire movements like that, mainly because I believe in the homosexual, and I don't like using the term homosexual community, because I don't believe you can create a community of human beings based upon shared sexual deviancy.

55:14

I just don't see that as a proper term. One generation and they would die out anyway.

55:20

Well, that's true. But the point is that those who adopt this lifestyle, it takes so much energy to suppress that knowledge of God that is within them that says this is wrong, that they define themselves.

55:35

I mean, you look at these people. They get up each morning and they spend their life promoting a form of sexual activity.

55:44

I mean, there are heterosexuals who do that, but I'm talking about the people that work for GLSEN and GLAD and all these groups where they have identified the world based upon this particular sexual orientation and activity and so on and so forth.

56:02

That's where you start getting into being given over to something, where most people who are angry recognize, well, they should fight that.

56:13

And the whole innate thing, well, this is just innate. This is just something that you can't get over.

56:19

Well, everyone's born with sin anyway. Well, not only that, but I have a much higher view of mankind. I mean, honestly, one of the reasons, honestly,

56:28

Rick, one of the reasons that the homosexual agenda is making the advances that it is is because of the advance of secularism.

56:36

Secularism says that we're pretty much just the creation of our genes. We're just random animals anyways, and so not only is there no objective truth and no objective morality, but we're also just simply a machine determined by our genes.

56:49

Now, that's not true. That's a very low view of man, but that's one of the reasons that's so pounded into people's minds now that this type of, well,

56:58

I was just born this way. I mean, it's doing great for Lady Gaga. Maybe it'll do great for me too.

57:04

And so I think that's why it's making the advances that it is. But you're exactly right, and I just want to make reference to the other three callers.

57:12

We're going to go a little bit long and catch all of you, so don't hang up on us. We're going to try to get to everybody. Hey, Rick.

57:19

Can I have one more small question? Real quick. It kind of hits on what I asked earlier. I mean, is that an appropriate way?

57:25

Like, if you're dealing with a friend who identifies he's struggling with, you know,

57:30

I see the struggle as a good thing to begin with because they're struggling with the sin, but is it appropriate to tell someone, you know, this may just be something where you're going to have to, you know, kind of commit to Christ daily and commit to salvation and choose

57:44

His glory over your desires? Yes, yes, yes. No question about it.

57:50

Look, part of sanctification is discipline. And if that is a part of one's makeup, there are

57:58

Christians who struggle with discipline every single day in many areas of their life. And as you grow in your love for Christ's glory, then you grow in your personal discipline in your life, and that's just part and parcel of being a

58:12

Christian. Okay, Rick. Thank you so much. All right, thanks a lot. God bless. Bye -bye. All right, let's try to work everybody in here.

58:18

Please recognize we're going to—we're going long, but we're going to have to keep it short or this is going to be a really long program.

58:24

So let's talk with—let's try Elias again. Hello, Elias. Yes, it's me. Hey, how are you doing?

58:30

Good. Thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir. My question is about, you know, the point in Calvinism, irresistible grace.

58:41

It has to do with losing your salvation. And I'm thinking about, you know, those who once confessed

58:50

Christ who, you know, showed all the outward signs of being saved, but who fall away.

58:59

And, you know, I believe what John says in 1 John, that they, you know, went out from us because they were never really of us.

59:08

But I guess my question is, at their point of quote -unquote salvation, what did they feel?

59:15

Would you say that the fact that the elect cannot lose their salvation and the fact that, you know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the doctrine of irresistible grace means that the

59:31

Holy Spirit only touches the elect, only draws the elect. Salvificly.

59:38

Salvificly. Salvificly. Yes. No, there is a general conviction of sin that is the work of the

59:46

Spirit. That's how that restraining force of the Spirit is the whole reason why we,

59:52

I believe in a common grace. I believe that there is a restraining of the evil in the world.

59:57

I don't think we could walk outside our front door if the Holy Spirit was not restraining the evil of man. So there is conviction of sin that is brought that does not necessarily lead unto salvation.

01:00:08

And, in fact, Calvin said something that he is often quoted on and criticized for, and that is that he said that God can, as an act of judgment, bring a person to false faith in the sense of, well, he was just following after what

01:00:31

Paul said to the Thessalonians, those who do not love the truth will be caused to love a lie. And I think

01:00:38

I've seen this in certain false religions where, well, I think Harold Camping is absolutely convinced of what's going to be happening this weekend from his perspective.

01:00:48

And there are people I've met who are absolutely convinced of just utter falsehoods. And they would tell you, they'd look you right in the eye, and I have no reason to say that they're lying to me.

01:00:58

That they absolutely are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, or they had this experience, and this supernatural experience, and that supernatural experience, and so on and so forth.

01:01:10

And remember, you know, I keep asking people this theoretical question. Given what we believe about sin, would it be appropriate for God to wipe out all sinners, just bring judgment at one point in time, just this is it, here's judgment.

01:01:26

And everybody will just automatically say, well, yeah. Okay, but he doesn't do that, right?

01:01:32

Well, yeah. All right, so if for his purposes, he uses

01:01:37

Pharaoh to proclaim his name and his power, and he keeps hardening

01:01:44

Pharaoh's heart, I mean, just on a basic level, just on a basic physical comfort level.

01:01:50

I don't know about you, but after the locust, you're out of here. Or the darkness, or whatever, you know, you're out of here.

01:02:00

And he literally hardens his heart, he keeps him in that position of rebellion for a particular purpose.

01:02:10

Why can't he do that? Well, does that also not mean that he can, in fact, give to someone an assurance of something that is actually untrue, because they have been given over, they're under his wrath?

01:02:23

What about the false prophets in the Old Testament? It said God sent a lying spirit into their mouths.

01:02:29

You know, what do you do? What do you do with those things? They're there, you've got to deal with them. The trouble with me, just slightly about that answer, is that one of the things

01:02:40

I tell people when I talk to them about the election, is that it's meant, in my opinion, and God revealed that to us in Scripture, as a comfort.

01:02:54

Well, sure, but don't get me wrong. What's the comfort of making our calling election?

01:03:04

Sure, it's based upon, I can't give you a Bible verse on this, but I think

01:03:10

Edwards was exactly right. He said one of the clearest examples, one of the clearest proofs of regeneration is that the regenerate person loves those attributes and characteristics of God that the unregenerate detect.

01:03:26

And so, a person who honestly loves God as God is, and is in obedience to his word,

01:03:36

I don't think there's any question about that person's confidence in Christ or anything else.

01:03:43

When I'm talking about a false assurance to somebody, look, there are hypocrites within the church.

01:03:49

There are the Judaizers, the Antichrists, I mean, we read about them over and over and over again in the pages of the

01:03:56

New Testament. They're there. What allowed them to continue on? There has to be some, it has to be more than they're just, you know, as soon as the door shuts today, they go,

01:04:08

I know I'm a false teacher. No, I don't think that's the case. I think for many of them, that's not the case at all.

01:04:16

So, you know, I don't claim to have a knowledge of what these people necessarily think.

01:04:22

I'm just trying to go from biblical parameters and give an answer from there. I appreciate that.

01:04:28

Okay, all right, well, something to think about, and it would be a topic to expand upon sometime, but still got two calls to get to.

01:04:36

All right, thanks, Elias. Thank you. Bye -bye. All right, let's talk to Matt.

01:04:42

Hi, Matt. Hi, Dr. White. Can you hear me? Yes, sir. All right, awesome, awesome.

01:04:48

Yeah, I want, I normally don't call into an Internet show unless I've got some notes written out, but after listening to you talk to that lady named

01:04:58

Alex who called in earlier, I just, I couldn't resist it. I just had to call in and comment on it because, oh, my goodness, it just about drove me crazy listening to the way these people argue.

01:05:09

I mean, I heard her saying the same thing that Dr. Small was saying in his debate with Michael Brown.

01:05:15

You were playing on your show. I mean, he was, gee, when it came down to brass tacks and it comes down to asking the difficult questions about their position on these issues, what happens?

01:05:25

Oh, I won't talk about that. I promised other people I wouldn't talk about that. I don't have an opinion on that, and so on and so forth.

01:05:33

And it just drove me crazy. And really what you've been saying the past couple of dividing lines about people like them, like Alex and Small and so on and so forth, or rather I should just say homosexuals or other various sexual deviants who are trying to legalize their immorality.

01:05:55

Well, let's make a distinction here. I have no idea what Alex's perspective is on any of those things.

01:06:03

I think the term we need to use here are those in our society who vainly attempt to create a moral system without a belief in objective truth or objective morality.

01:06:14

These are secularists who in essence function primarily upon the basis of emotion and upon basis of tradition.

01:06:23

They may not even use those terms, but they have been given a tradition from movies and from culture and maybe from Dr.

01:06:32

Small or someone like that. And they adopt this and then they lash out at others who disagree with that without ever having thought through what's the foundation of all this?

01:06:42

Where do you get any of this? And the scary thing is, you know, in my debate with Silverman a little over, not quite a year, two years ago or a year ago, whenever it was back in New York, when

01:06:57

I pushed him on how an atheist has morality, at least he was willing to say that as we stood outside the gates of Auschwitz, the most he could say at that point would be,

01:07:11

I disagree with what this society did. He couldn't really call it evil, but he would simply have to be able to say, well,

01:07:19

I disagree. And at least he was willing to be consistent at that point.

01:07:25

But most of the secularists in our society will not be consistent on that point.

01:07:31

And unfortunately, this next generation that is soaked in this kind of secularism and materialism that just doesn't have any basis for morality whatsoever, outside of consensus or something along these lines, they're the folks that are going to be making the moral decisions in the next couple of decades.

01:07:52

And the result of that, Lord have mercy. Yes, yes,

01:07:58

I know, exactly. And I listened to your debate with Dave Silverman, and I remember you saying that.

01:08:03

You asked him if all you could say was there was no objective sin or evil here, it's just your opinion.

01:08:11

And he said, yep. Yep. I remember him saying that. And not only that, but I think the people who, you know, the postmodernists of our age, like Alex, whether they get their perspective from the movies and whether these things are popularized,

01:08:28

I think they do know exactly the implications of their position, and that's why they won't answer questions about polygamy or incest or things like that.

01:08:37

And it just strikes me as just, it drives me insane that they would be so absolutely patently selfish in trying to legalize this kind of behavior, that they won't even protect the victims of pedophiles.

01:08:53

They will go ahead and they will use every single argument that flows just as easily out of the mouths of homosexual advocates and the like, and they will refuse to say anything against pedophilia.

01:09:05

Well, let's keep something really clear, Matt, because I've got one more call I've got to get to. Let's make this really, really clear.

01:09:11

California now has a Harvey Milk Day, and Harvey Milk, everybody, everybody knows, not only was himself engaged in sexual behavior with adult men as a minor, but as an adult did the same thing with young boys.

01:09:34

And this is not a question. This is not a debatable issue. Everybody knows that this is a part of that man's character, and yet there is now a

01:09:43

Harvey Milk Day in the great state of California. And there's much more that can be said about that.

01:09:50

But hey, Matt, I'm sorry. I've got to get to this last call. I've got to get out of here. Thank you for your phone call today. Matt, keep listening out there.

01:09:56

Let's get one more in here, and let's talk with Sasha. Hi, Sasha. Hello. Hello.

01:10:03

Well, we had an Alex at the start that I expected to be a guy, and now it's Sasha that I expect to be a guy, and it turns out to be a guy.

01:10:10

It's confusing me here. Oh, goodness. Well, I was calling about morality.

01:10:18

I don't think that we are a moral relativist, but I think that it's based on, or it should be.

01:10:26

We should try to base it on our empathy for other human beings, and we should try to minimize suffering.

01:10:35

We should allow people to flourish as much as possible. Sasha, can

01:10:41

I ask you a question? Sure. Why? Why? Yeah.

01:10:46

I mean, why the flourishing of other human beings?

01:10:52

I mean, in other words, what is your worldview? Are you a secularist? Are you a materialist? I'm a secularist.

01:10:59

I'm an atheist. All right. So if you're an atheist and a secularist. And I guess I would say right off the bat that if you're going to—

01:11:06

I've heard you claim that atheists actually really secretly believe in a god and they don't admit to themselves.

01:11:13

That's nonsense. Well, the Bible says that you know God exists, but you suppress that knowledge.

01:11:19

So you can take that up with Romans 1. I'm not going to deny my faith just because it bothers you.

01:11:25

But my point is— It's not that it bothers me. I'm just telling you I know my own mind. Well, God knows it better than you know it.

01:11:33

But the point is this. As an atheist or a secularist, I assume that you believe in neo -Darwinian micromutational evolutionary theory, right?

01:11:44

In Darwinian what? Neo -Darwinian micromutational evolutionary theory.

01:11:49

The standard— I believe in evolutionary theory. I don't believe in scientific facts.

01:11:54

Okay, so from that perspective, Sasha, from that perspective, please trace to me how you get from a naturalistic, materialistic worldview where your sole purpose, as Richard Dawkins has so well put it, the only reason you exist is as an envelope for your genes.

01:12:15

The only reason you exist is to pass your genes on to the next generation. Please trace for us how you get from that foundation to what you started with at the beginning of your phone call that we should base our morality upon empathy for other people.

01:12:31

If that doesn't get your genes to the next generation, it's irrelevant. Well, because you're making a mistake there, and you're conflating two things that aren't the same.

01:12:41

One is how we got here, and that is true.

01:12:47

The way we got here is because I'm an envelope for genes. But I also have consciousness and feelings, and I act in trying to survive.

01:13:00

I go about—I take actions, and I actually do have the purpose.

01:13:09

I do have purpose to myself. But your purpose is determined by your genes.

01:13:14

Don't go stealing from my worldview to give yourself purpose. I can tell you why you have purpose, because you're creating the image of God, but you don't have that.

01:13:23

The only purpose you have is to get your genes to the next generation. So explain to me, for example, why you would ever—

01:13:30

No, that's not—I mean— Are you saying that you're—

01:13:36

That's an explanation for how we got to be where we are.

01:13:41

That's not an explanation. So, Sasha, your explanation for purpose is completely disconnected from your worldview of how we got here?

01:13:52

There's no connection between the two? No, we evolve. No, we happen to evolve. And the way we evolve, part of our evolution is that we have certain values.

01:14:03

For example, we enjoy eating food because it helps give us nourishment.

01:14:09

But I don't have to—I can enjoy the taste. And you can do things just because evolution— you don't have to value everything based on what evolution says.

01:14:23

Yes, I am so thankful that you're right, Sasha. But you know what? My friend, the reason that you're saying these things is because you're made in the image of God, and you cannot live in a secular, materialistic world.

01:14:37

You can't! You know that there's value to other people. And you are—the very fact that you are making this division between the foundation of your worldview and the experience of your worldview demonstrates exactly what

01:14:52

I said before. But that's not—it's not the foundation of my worldview. It's the foundation of the scientific explanation of why there's so many different— where life comes from, where there's so many different forms of life on this planet.

01:15:06

Sasha, let me explain something to you. Evolution tells you that, but it does not tell you—oh, go ahead. Sasha, your worldview has to take into consideration all of your experience and reality.

01:15:18

The Christian worldview takes into consideration all of experience and reality. You can't separate them out.

01:15:24

You're trying to break them apart, and I'm telling you, if all you've got is a cosmic little speck of dust that just happened to have developed some little creatures that run around on its surface that are nothing but bundles of DNA, then you can't meaningfully look me in the eye and talk about purpose.

01:15:44

If you start talking about purpose, I will have to laugh at you because your worldview has no basis for it.

01:15:53

The reason you have to talk about purpose, Sasha, is because you were made in the image of God.

01:16:00

And that is what I would very strongly encourage you to consider. Hey, Sasha, thank you very much.

01:16:05

We went really, really long today. Thank you for hanging with us. Thanks for calling today. Wow, I will—OK,

01:16:11

I will right now tell you, there is no way that I will even remember all the call topics to put into the blog article.

01:16:22

Could someone write them down for me? Is Algo and Channel— Oh, my goodness.

01:16:31

We not only went 15 minutes, 16 minutes long, but I can never remember a program that has been—

01:16:37

Wow, I'm exhausted. All right. Well, hey,

01:16:43

Lord willing, and I don't crash on a certain long descent on Thursday, early Thursday morning, we will see you on the next

01:16:51

Dividing Line. And we will finish on time, maybe, next time.

01:16:56

Thanks for listening. God bless. It's the sign of the times.

01:17:25

The truth is being trampled in underweight paradigms. Won't you lift up your voice?

01:17:32

Are you tired of plain religion? It's time to make some noise. I'm going back.

01:17:37

Oh, Wittenberg. I'm going back. I stand up for the truth.

01:17:44

Won't you live for the Lord? Because we're pounding, pounding on Wittenberg.

01:17:50

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01:17:59

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01:18:04

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01:18:13

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