October 6, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James White And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a little early program today

I'm sure we'll have lots and lots lots folks pop in about an hour from now Because I didn't read the blog where we announced earlier today

That we were going to be an hour early for a proper reasons and that's another good reason why we aren't on any networks and all that stuff that other people do because then your life becomes utterly and completely wrapped around that time frame and Adam this not in the slightest bit interested in that at all

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We have for the past three programs

I've been doing a radio free Geneva and I did get a note by the way

And I hadn't even thought about this. Don't ask me why I've experienced the mega church

Southern Baptist routine before and I remember very clearly when a

Very large Southern Baptist Church here in Phoenix went through the change It always takes place when one big mega pastor leaves and the person who comes in after him

Just doesn't isn't the same thing as him doesn't go the same direction and I remember at that time

The new pastor mentioning in a sermon very shortly after he arrived that they couldn't find about eighty seven percent of The people they had baptized over the past three years

They just had no idea where in the world they were and you would think okay The back door is almost as big as front door and we mentioned in the last program the idea of how many people you have to Baptize just to get one person sitting in the pews on a regular basis.

Just just one and of course Obviously in my experience sitting in the pew is not the same thing as actually growing

Participating becoming involved in the life of the church stuff like that So if you tried to figure that part out goodness

I don't have the foggiest idea how how many you'd have to quote -unquote baptize get saved To get to that point makes you truly wonder when you read first John chapter 5 exactly how all this fits together.

But anyway You got a note that pointed out where some of those numbers might come from Pastor was talking about a certain church while the one of the radio free

Geneva's we've done One of the people who have recently preached nasty anti -calvinism sermons we reviewed his sermon and found it wanting of course and documented that and in that particular church this this pastor is telling me that he there were seven people from that church in his church and Those seven people who had been in that church represented 17 baptisms

In other words, they had been baptized an average of what two point something times a piece

So you get them when they're really real young, you know when they're just knee -high to a grasshopper it's real easy and in fact,

I one of the things I started laughing about on the last program was I was scrolling down the founders blog and there was this picture of And I've heard these stories from a number of different sources, but there was this picture of a guy doing the baptism thing for kids and I've heard of churches they do this they will they will build sets and they will have special services where the young kids come in and they'll have they'll have themes and lights and and and all sorts of cartoon characters around a baptistry and They'll make it look like a lot of fun.

It's a theme park it's a water park and every kid wants to go to the water park, right and And so they're going home saying to mommy and daddy they're gonna do it again next week and I want to get

I want to get Baptized mommy and daddy and how many mommies and daddies are gonna go? Oh we don't want you to get baptized little kid and and how many are even prepared to discuss what baptism means or anything along those lines at all and so they'll actually use this kind of methodology and Every single one of them counts.

Okay, every single one of them counts and so Then you know, they get baptized at seven and Then they go through an emotional crisis at 14 and they get baptized again, well do they

Count that you better believe they count that they're not going to go back and amend the the records from seven years earlier

But you better believe they're gonna count that that's that's and that's another one to go and So of these seven people 17 baptisms represented in those seven people and So I was going

Wow, you start figuring out what that adds up to and a fairly significant portion of some of those big numbers really represent

Nothing they they represent absolutely positively nothing Which of course is why? You have the kind of attendance and worship that you have and then if you actually make that more serious and start talking about attendance and Bible study and Participation life the church and things like that that the numbers just get downright infinitesimal

But that's that's where we got to go. That's what we've got to do. And oh goodness Amazing stuff, but if I share that with you,

I've got some other stuff here In case the phones don't go completely crazy, but we actually have a call right off the bat here so we'll go with that and then

See what happens don't have any Any clips to play today? No radio free

Geneva or anything like that. I'm sure that there's plenty of stuff out there Oh, by the way, it's on the blog.

But two things two things just real quick for a go -to our call Hey, I know straight gates down rich knows straight gates down.

We don't control state straight gate We don't have any control over at all. We don't know why it's down We haven't been told why it's down as far as I know.

It's down. We can't put it back up So, please please please please please please Do not drive rich and sane by constantly hitting our website with complaints about straight gate being down There's no

James guess what? I just heard the straight gates down straight. That's that's what I heard too. Yeah Okay, how many times how many times you heard that today is really the

I couldn't count can't can't can't Obviously we need to do something again, we yep, we're supposed to we're supposed to do it

Yep, so but we do have you know, it should be back up this weekend or so. We have our mp3 shopping cart

We do have everything that would be on straight gate from our ministry would be in our mp3 shopping cart

I think that's why people say that That's why they're calling up and saying we're straight gate

It says this weekend or so, we'll see I I know that there's movement of servers and you know things like that happens so We but we can't answer those questions.

So anyway, that's a and B I Know about the gift of Scripture.

I Have received a minimum of a dozen URLs. They're all the same URL to the times article about the release on the part of the leadership of the

Roman Catholic Church in England Scotland Wales, etc of the 60 page book called the gift of Scripture, which basically

It's not like this is it's actually not a big deal everybody's known what

Rome believes about Scripture and what Rome scholars believe about Scriptures and and All the rest of stuff.

This isn't anything new or exciting along those lines, but they've put it in print That you really can't trust all sorts of sections of the

Bible, you know, you've got the Roman Catholics doing this You've got almost all the mainline denominations doing this. I've got to sit here

Looking at John Shelby Spong doing this. I'm watching debates with Shabbir Ali debating

William Lane Craig and All Ali does is quote over and over again from the

Jesus seminar guys and Raymond Brown just boom boom boom over and over and over and over again and William Lane Craig isn't in a very good position to argue against him because he's already based so much of his arguments upon the same

Kind of scholarship anyways, and so there there you go So You look at all this stuff and People say do you ever get frustrated?

Well, yeah But to me it's just it's just a sign of judgment I mean, there are just so many people from so many perspectives that just they have no concern

About the Word of God. They they they are so quick to grab hold of any criticism of the

Word of God and Buy into anything that's less than the highest

Belief in the Word of God it and they'll still sit there and talk about how they believe in Jesus and stuff But what Jesus believed about Scripture?

Well, they can get around that by saying well actually what's in the Gospels doesn't represent what you just believe about Scripture So we don't know what you just believe.

Well, if we don't know what Jesus believe about Scriptures We don't know what Jesus believed about anything Okay, quit quit playing games and saying you have some idea of what

Jesus is about saying you believe in him But you don't know anything about him If you can't if everything

Scripture is just simply what later generations Wanted to project on Jesus just be honest and say we shouldn't believe this stuff anymore

You know, it's one thing to deal with the the Muslims. Okay, fine

You know, your ultimate authority is the Quran your ultimate authority is what the the the hadith tell you to believe

Fine, we can deal with that. It's these people who call themselves Christians who are anything but Christians That are the most difficult to deal with and and it's no wonder as I was listening to some of this stuff

It's no wonder that there is no apologetic left Amongst anything that's that's liberal ism in Western cultures

No, it's no wonder that that that Christianity is is defenseless Because if you don't have anything to defend you're gonna be defenseless.

It's you that's just all there is to it Well, anyways, that's that's another issue, but we will we will press on with some of that stuff as time goes by let's

Talk with Jim. Hi, Jim. How you doing? I'm great James. How are you doing pretty good?

Actually, you touched on a couple of interesting things there before I called really to talk a little bit about the cross and debate

Mm -hmm, but the gift of Scripture I thought was an amazing thing because there's an internal inconsistency to it

Where they're saying that science Needs to be embraced where the Genesis creation account is concerned

And yet among the things that they are saying are scripturally true valid to be believed

They included the virgin birth, right? Seems internally inconsistent, doesn't it?

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of consistency there But I think if you were to push and prod a little bit farther

I think you would find some pretty interesting views as to what they think the virgin birth might be in other words what it might

Allegorically represent etc. Etc. I I don't know these specific authors well enough to comment on it, but something tells me that If you pushed hard enough, you'd you'd find some pretty

Unorthodox Interpretations of the original intention at least of Rome and defining the virgin birth the

Immaculate Conception so on so forth And even at that Let's let's face it original intent is pretty much lost on everybody today.

Anyway, so in the legal field as well as the religious field, so it it is interesting how a

Portion of an allegedly universal church can put out a document like this and it doesn't come from Rome I'm sort of wondering personally what

Roman Catholic apologists are going to be saying about this. I haven't seen anything yet in Carl Keating's e -letter or anything

It it will be interesting. I haven't checked Jimmy Akin's blog, but I would very much like to see what they have to say about this document because Roman Catholic apologists by nature tend to be more conservative, right?

You know some of the discussion boards have already lit up with with a bit of talk about it Really, which are the

Catholic answers or well and the calm board and some of those? Discussions have already erupted

Primarily because you know, it's very difficult for your Catholic on the street the the average everyday pew sitting

Catholic who then has to defend these sort of decrees that come down out of the

Catholic hierarchy and When you're just a Catholic guy on the street with Protestant friends and you're trying to defend your church and Then the

Catholic hierarchy sends down something that says well the Bible Portions of the Bible are valid and portions aren't and some are defensible and some aren't it's very difficult for your average

Guy on the street to say, okay I gotta continue to defend my church here, even though they're making statements, but I can't really

Defend to my Protestant brethren. Yeah, that's true Protestant friends. I guess I have to pick my words Well, I have to yes, you have to be very very careful there

Well, I listen to the cross and debate Yes and It was very very interesting There's just one aspect of it that I want to bring up with you and see if you could comment on it

One of the guys in the question answer period tried to bring it up and if I understand what crossman was saying

He was saying that the differences between the different Gospel narratives and gospel accounts had to do with a defensible kind of rewriting and reshaping of the gospel story to make it more palatable to the audience that was being written to But then he said that it was okay to do that because it was after all the

Holy Spirit that was guiding these Individuals to do that right that each of the gospel writers under the inspiration of the

Spirit was making New editorial changes and comments to the gospel to fit their audience

And it just seemed to me that if we're going to buy into that argument Then certainly the

Mormons ought to jump on that and say that it's the same Spirit of God that caused them to write their new

Testament of Jesus Christ and it certainly seems that every charismatic who's having a an

Unbiblical revelation these days ought to be able to say yes, but hey, that's the way the original

Bible was written It was written by people who by the inspiration of the Spirit gave a slightly different version or twist of the gospel to fit their audience and in this contemporary world we live in that same spirit is now giving me a new version of the gospel and What's to say that the?

21st century charismatic doesn't have the same Valid argument that crossman is trying to give to the original gospel writers

Where does it stop if you buy into that argument? Well, it's it stops in the fact that the argument itself

Utterly destroys any possibility of having any certainty Whatsoever in regards to divine revelation it destroys the reality of divine revelation it turns it completely into subjectivism and and it it feeds directly into what you see in for example a a

Marcus Borg and that direction of things this pluralism this panentheism this

Your experience is God type of a type of a situation and you can't say anything with any kind of certainty

You can't say anything with any kind of authority, which is exactly what they want regarding Anything in regards to the

Christian faith at all it all becomes just whatever you want to be and that is the goal that is That's the desire.

That's that kind of religion doesn't call anyone to deal with the holiness of God It doesn't call anyone to look at their sin and deal with the wrath of God against their sin or anything else and so that is exactly what they want and that's exactly the direction that they are that they want to go and so The end of it is the end of all apologetic the end of all truth everything becomes subjective and You know, you're left with basically

Someone saying well, you know, I just don't see it that way I'm not gonna say you're wrong and I'm not gonna appreciate if you say

I'm wrong and I'm not gonna accept if you say I'm wrong anyways Because you really don't have any basis for so doing and so you just sit around and you write scholarly papers and you have symposiums

And that's all there is that's left. There is no divine revelation You might as well just you know systematic theology in the history of the church becomes just that it's just a history

Just people once believed this we now know they were silly We can sit around and talk about what would have been better if we just hadn't believed like that But we really can't get into that and let's just let's just go on from there

And that's that's all you have left and that's what you have in liberalism today there's if you look around that's that's the best they've got to offer and I don't find that to be an overly compelling type of my question is then knowing cross and as you do and the time you spent with him in the amount of reading you've

Done on him. Do you think that he understands that everything you've just described is the end result of his approach in his philosophy or I mean, do you really think that he is purposefully trying to throw that door wide open?

So that all absolutes disappear and do you think that he understands? The damage that does and do you think that's purposeful or do you think he just hasn't fought all the way through?

The necessary consequences of the theories he's out there throwing around Well, I think it's purposeful on a large portion of the

Jesus seminar John Dominic cross and came to this from a monastery. I really think he thinks

That what he's Doing really for him. This is all just academics the eye

From his perspective as far as his worldview goes there only certain things there are only certain parameters that you can actually lay out and Say you have to include this and for him.

It would be his radical egalitarianism and Shared meal. That's those are the only two things he would say those need to be there because they're a part of the most primitive

Level of that everybody has to agree that that was there and that's it That's the only way you can define it beyond that.

However, you apply that however, it works Becomes a matter of personal opinion. Does he does he see that well,

I Don't know how he couldn't I don't know how he could not see that he certainly toward the end of the debate when during the audience questions,

I was talking to him and he had at the well at the end of the debate in his closing statement and then in answer to an audience question he had made a statement somewhere along the lines of you know, can we realize that Christianity has a right wing and a left wing and Sort of can't we always get along?

Can't we cooperate and what's important, etc, etc And I at one point took the opportunity to say to him.

Well, dr. Cross and that's where we part company is we can't quote -unquote just get along because the only way that we believe you can change the world is to change people's hearts and that is to the gospel and You're you don't have a gospel

You're you don't have any basis for defining a gospel or proclaiming a gospel or anything authoritative or anything else for that matter.

And so He listened so he couldn't possibly Not realize that but I think from his perspective

He realizes it, but he thinks that's all that's the best. We've got that's that's just all there is there there really isn't any divine revelation the way that we think there is and so he's doing the best he can with what he thinks is actually there and You know,

I don't know, you know, maybe I'm just completely Taken by the fact that he's a he's a very nice fellow and maybe he has the exact same

Purposes that Robert Funk had and that other people in Jesus seminar have that that spong has that they clearly hate

Funk hated the Christian faith Spong hates the Christian faith.

They want to completely redefine it and Maybe he has the same motivations and I'm just silly but I didn't see any evidence of that to me

When he would speak this is just the conclusions He's come to in examining these ancient texts and that's what they are.

They're ancient texts that this isn't the honest us isn't this isn't God -breathed people may have believed that once that's not really what it is and It's it's just It's scholarship dummy

It's to use his terminology is is the feeling that I get from him? So and it's all parables it's it's and you know, you can interpret a parable

Anyway, you want to interpret a parable and that's how he interprets it. Yeah. Yeah, very much. So So now you listen to the mp3 or because I we only started shipping the the

DVDs yesterday, I think yeah I downloaded and listen to the mp3 Two weeks ago. Okay, I was going to call in before but I was enjoying your

Your radio free Geneva program Waiting in line or could I ask you one more thing? Oh, oh, no, you got

I Think I see. Oh, there is one other person and we got plenty of time.

So what's up? Well on a completely different going from scholarship to complete lack of it I want to ask you about Dave Hunt for a moment.

Oh good grief You on your blog mentioned the

September 2005 Question and answer section right on the Berean call

Well, actually it was in his newsletter And I had the electronic version of it, but it's on his website as well

Yeah, I downloaded it as well as a PDF which by the way, there's more than one version of that. Is there?

Yes, there is a change. My understanding is there is a change between the original PDF and maybe what

I received Because I if people remember the blog I saw this for the first time when

I was on the ship I found out that they had a Wi -Fi hotspot and You could pay the same amount of money for that that you did the other computers

And so I brought my my laptop down and I started getting my regular mail to my regular account and that's when

I got it and someone I need to go back and look at it, but someone pointed out that there was a interesting change in that very segment where there's the controversy right now as to whether Dave Hunt's actually saying that Calvinists are saved or not saved but so there's there's two different versions of it

I quoted the one from the The original that I received from him and I think that's what's on the website the

PDF version of it now as well And that is the conclusion of him saying look if you hold to the

Calvinist gospel the big thing They're saying right now is well what we meant by that was if you believe in baptismal regeneration, which?

I've asked a Presbyterian friend of mine to respond to the misrepresentations of Reformed theology at that point

It just seems that Dave cannot avoid going after that particular issue even when we were doing our book

I'm sure he was somewhat upset that he was debating someone who he couldn't go after him after on that particular issue even though he'd still sort of snuck a little bit of it in but I've asked somebody to respond to that, but I mentioned on the blog

I Pointed that particular issue out mentioned. I'd like to do more about this a whole article and now what they're saying is well

He's you have to have that infant baptism for regeneration Concept in mind or all that concluding paragraph doesn't count that's what they're now sending out a guy named

I think Ed poor Ed has to take off the has to take all the heat for for Dave's odd statements like the

Hebrew original of Acts and stuff like that and so now they're saying well you've misunderstood him

The the Calvinist gospel he's talking about even though the previous paragraph is about God picking and choosing an election things like that It's all about infant baptism for for regeneration now

So I see some backpedaling going on that particular there is but I read it sort of the opposite way

I read it have it here in front of me now is That because the question came up about whether someone who believed in a

Calvinistic soteriology Could be saved and the the question is even asked Can you extend a statement of being a fellow believer?

To TF and other Calvinists the same way that apparently this TF did In extending that hand to them and saying that he thought they were safe He launches right from the first paragraph into infant baptism

Which seemed like such a strange place to launch that it's only when you get to the conclusion that you realize that he did that On purpose so that he could get to the end and say that Calvinist Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved right while those who are saved and ought to know better But teach these heresies will be judged for doing so Yeah, let's make sure

I mean this is a long answer and Yes, he does go into that but but right after you got infant baptism

Then you've got Ephesians 2 8 to 9. You've got the whosoever will stuff first Timothy 2 4 all that stuff the

John all the father gives me but the father gives everybody regeneration before faith

Two paragraphs on that dead in sin. He's the guy's a plagiarism at that point, right? Calvin allegedly mocking the

Word of God then the first 72 for first Timothy 4 to John 1 13 and world

John 3 16 and after all of that then finally you get to that last paragraph where where his

Wilkin ism comes out his Zane Hodges is is is ism comes out and Says well, you know if you believe the right the right particular perspective at least once Then you're you're in it.

You're you're cool but If that's not what you believed then you're you're lost.

I mean, I can't read it any other way There's a sentence those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved now.

What what is included in that, right? What is what is included in the false gospel of Calvinism?

Is it every single point? What if you differ with quote -unquote his view of Calvinism on one point does that mean you can then be say

I don't know well that's why I'm saying I read it that I felt that he put that baptism thing in there almost like a

Fail -safe like a red herring that he could put right there at the top To give him the excuse to launch into everything else

Yeah So that later when somebody said is this really what you mean? He could point back at the baptism thing and say oh,

I meant that to be honest with you The body of the answer Completely undermines much wider much wider.

Yeah much much wider Yeah, and to be honest with you, I just don't know that we can give Dave that much credit

I'm sorry he seems to be honest with you as I've looked at this what love is this saga and His backing off of this point and backing off of that point and backing being being refuted here refuted there backing backing backing backing he always does it in such a way as to Put his face out there.

He gets smacked in the nose and Only then does he move and say that no one ever hit him.

Anyways, and that's that's his mo and so this rambling rather illogical

Disconnected response is classical hunt and I just don't think it's a matter of well

I'm gonna put this up here so I can fall back on it. Now. I think that's first thing across his mind I've listened ever listen to him speak.

Mm -hmm. I tell you He's all over the place and this response is exactly what you'd hear

Yeah, if it's almost it in fact given the grammar stuff I almost have to wonder if we didn't go to their mp3 page and listen to a recent radio program if this isn't a transcription of Dave's doing that just just wandering around and well

They say this and they say that and and things coming to his mind and I just have to sort of wonder if that's not

Behind it. I don't know. But anyways That's what he's doing now is he's trying to use that fail -safe, but I think it's pretty clear exactly what he was saying and exactly

What his purposes were well, and he's clearly said it. It's not what he's trying to say He has said those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved

I mean, there's no ambiguity about that particular statement regardless of how much window dressing

He put on it before he got there. Yeah, and the funny thing is Right before we came on on the air.

I got an email From and I'm not exactly sure how this got to me and who sent it to me and stuff but There's an article they've someone has posted and it says it pulls back the curtain a little bit and begins to show how many quote

Calvinists and quote are really our minions in disguise James White believes that our minions who hold the false gospel of Christ died for everybody are saved

I once asked him you hold that people who believe in universal atonement are saved too. Here was his reply

Yes, Louie, and I sort of remember this I was gonna start doing a search for what day when this particularly took place in our chat channel because I can tell where it

Well, this was from our chat channel. I was saved before I came to understand that wonderful truth and quote so here's a whole article about how

I'm actually not a Crypt, I'm not actually a Calvinist. I'm a dead Calvinist I'm an unsaved

Calvinist because I don't make a full understanding of particular redemption required for Regeneration so you work very hard to say what it is

You believe and then people hear whatever it is They want to hear it and I get shot out from both sides I guess it's pretty good thing to be somewhere in the middle and according to the question and answers here on hunt

It's okay If you if you teach a false gospel and a false doctrine apparently a damnable heresy

But don't do yoga Reading Dave is always something that'll that'll keep you awake.

Hey, anyways, thanks for your call brother. You take care. All right. God bless Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We're gonna take our break We've got two other callers online and room for you as well. We'll be right back Today What is dr

Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen but free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen

Or this portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045

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Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book the same -sex controversy

James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational

Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law

In a straightforward and loving manner They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people

The same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at al min or on call today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Let's go ahead and talk with Rick. How you doing Rick? Not too bad.

How you doing doing? All right good Oh, I first I want to say um I enjoyed The radio free

Geneva, I thought it was great. I mean, you know, I was I was to say I guess to say the least incensed by just you know, the

You don't even get a fair shake Don't get a fair shake No when tradition becomes the ultimate authority in anyone's situation doesn't matter who it might be.

But when tradition becomes the ultimate authority Scripture is always going to suffer and you're always going to have something lesser than Scripture taking the place of Scripture and That's what you have in that situation.

And I imagine Jack Graham would be shocked if you told him that he was a

That he was bound to tradition But that's one of the problems with having an unbiblical form of church government

And I'm biblical ecclesiology is there isn't anyone who can tell him that? Okay, maybe

Maybe another pastor halfway across the United States or something okay, those would be the only quote -unquote peers these super pastors of these super churches have and You know,

I've said many times. There are only a couple churches where these people who gain super large

Access and and notoriety and stuff. There's only a few churches I can think of where those individuals

Actually have a biblical form of church government where they can they can have

Peers who keep them on the straight and narrow. It's a dangerous thing Yeah, it really is to experience that kind of success shall we say so Anyhow, but that wasn't what your question was about.

Oh, no Actually, I also really enjoyed the the message you did on the emergent

Church, it was about McLaren Which one was where was where was that from you were in a you read some other church grace something

I think hmm I spoke on a couple times In various and sundry places and just and even at those

I I I don't claim to be an expert I'm just simply trying to give people an idea of they're hearing about it.

They're seeing it. What are we? What are we talking about? I haven't interacted with these individuals

On the level that you would need to do so to actually claim some level of expertise but once again, it seems to be one of those situations where you have a number of problems coming together and giving rise to this and it's not like those those problems are not issues that we've

We've dealt with many many times in the past as far as biblical authority the form of the church purpose of the church, etc

Etc. So what's your? Go ahead my question I guess would be related to that I guess

It's like I'd seem to be growing I guess in conservative ranks too and and I just Wonder about the idea that you know scripture is not just proposition it's it's poetry and narrative and Like it just seems to be like sort of like a whole new way to look at a

Bible and it Didn't seem to fit well with me like I was like it just seemed to be more open

You know to you know, okay, we maybe disagree with this guy McLaren or whatever on these huge issues, but we can still learn from them and you know, and I I don't know it seemed to rub me wrong because like, you know,

McLaren is is Seems to be off on and the major issues and you know, it doesn't it doesn't do well

Sort of promoting them Yeah, yeah. Well a couple things

First of all when you criticize any movement There is a a proper way of recognizing

Truth in what is being said and then there is an improper way. It seems today that whenever you criticize anything

I mean you criticize Mormonism people will start off by saying well, you know

There's a lot of good things that we can learn from the Mormons. They love their families and They're very mission -oriented and blah blah blah blah blah.

Yeah, well Those are all interesting But they sort of pale and insignificance next to the fact that that this is a polytheistic religion that lacks the gospel.

So And it brings you directly into idolatry So I don't know that you need to be spending too much time on on that particular aspect

But when you're talking about people who will confess Orthodoxy on the doctrine of the

Trinity even on the gospel and then they go off and do other things They will at one point say yes, and then it sounds like they're saying no

That's when we have to listen very carefully. What's being said this morning? I was writing and I was listening the whole time.

I was I was writing for an hour. I listened to NT Wright I was listening to NT Wright Lecturing on the church in the modern day

This is a fairly recent lecture since he was Bishop of Durham when he did this and he hasn't been Bishop of Durham all that long so fairly fairly recent and as With so many other time so many other times and I've listened to NT Wright.

He he takes he gives with one hand and he takes with the other and As I was listening

I was thinking about a lecture that I listened to by John Robbins just a few weeks ago Where he was just ripping and shredding on NT Wright and I was thinking about what

Robbins was saying, okay The the quotes that he read most definitely indicate problems

He had a wide variety of quotes from NT Wright on a wide variety of issues

No, no question that those are quotes that need to be dealt with but he never ever ever recognized that for example within the context of Anglicanism he often is is way to the right of where the

Anglican Church as a whole is and So I think that does have to be recognized

You have to recognize that for example, and I think every criticism I've heard of the emergent church movement has has pointed this out.

There are reasons why this this Movement take is taking place.

There are there are reasons why? These people are embracing these kinds of things and if you're going to respond to them meaningfully

You need to understand what those reasons are and if those reasons are valid reasons if they're let's face it There's a lot of dead formalism in Fundamentalist conservative churches there are churches that people just go through the motions and there's there's no

There's just a lot of dead formalism there. Okay, if that gives rise to this you don't defend

Dead formalism you recognize that you say, you know what? we've been Speaking about that for a long long time.

Here's here's how you actually handle dead formalism You don't go running out and do this stuff

If we're not dealing with what are really issues Then how can we say we're really responding to even what these people are saying?

So same thing is with with McLaren, you know, just because just because the

Mormon prophet Says that you should spend time with your kids and your family doesn't mean that you shouldn't spend time with your kids and your family

So you've got it. You've got to admit when a person says something's true, but you don't spend all your time

Just focusing upon you. Well, you know, we believe 5 % of the same things no, you don't do that you you focus upon what's what's really important and what's really definitional and Try to find out what's really definitional

That's what people tend that they tend to go either either direction the imbalance on the one side is let's just all talk about the things that are that we have in common and let's

Dialogue blah blah blah blah blah and on the other side sadly to people even to the right of me

If you don't agree with someone Then not only will you never let them speak not only will you never dialogue with them?

but you've somehow feel that you have the right now to completely twist their words out of The context in which they're originally spoken and I you know

I think one of the reasons that maybe I try to be a little bit more fair along those lines though most people are shocked that I would even try to do so is

I've been I've been the target of that I've you know when people will come after me and They are to the right of me

I've I know what it feels like to have what I've said just completely ripped out of its context and and applied in a way that I would never ever apply it and So if I'm gonna sort of demand that I be treated, right?

I need to I need to do that the other direction and so that may be behind what you what you heard

There is that okay? Here's what the emergent church movement is responding against these are issues. These are problems

We can't stick our heads in the sand forget about it, but this isn't how you respond to it You don't you don't deal with postmodernism by then embracing postmodern categories

You don't you need to see why postmodernism is anti -biblical and you need to train your people on how to respond to postmodernism and detect it in their own thinking and how to help other people see that it's really a

An image of God destroying way of thought and and how the biblical way is a better way and etc, etc, etc

So that's probably what was what was behind Even taking the time to say, you know, they're they're saying true things here here and here, but here's where they've missed it here

Here's they've missed it there and you're trying you just just trying to be fair and accurate and what you're saying about somebody.

Yeah Yeah, I thought I mean I Was you know, I thought that was good. I Saw the other concerns

I had were just like, you know, what? this whole like this Scripture is not just proposition.

Right, right, right, right. I'm sorry. I that is and that's all around us. I mean that is

That's everywhere That's sadly these days that's that's

John Armstrong you know his stuff it attacks upon quote -unquote foundationalism and this whole that that has

Almost by default taken over the vast majority of theological seminaries you've got

Peter ends writing its Westminster seminary now and and coming up with all these alternative ways of understanding inerrancy and Yeah, it's it is absolutely positively everywhere and fundamentally in the final analysis

I think it is it is evidence of The judgment of God upon Western culture a discerning church and a clarion voice of the church is a blessing upon a culture

This culture is eating itself from the inside. It is it is eating itself up We are engaging in self -destructive behaviors

We we if it has something to do with the image of God, we're gonna find a way to try to kill it

I Mean I saw someone in channel put a URL up About the fact that there's a

Danish man who has filed a lawsuit Demanding money from the government to be able to pay for a same -sex prostitute to come to his home and I sit there looking at that going

What? But see that's that's where that part of Europe has gone.

I mean it is it has become If it's if it's godly get rid of it

There there are many young couples in those countries in the Netherlands and places like that that get married

Secretly now because marriage is considered such a bad thing Such a backwards thing such an immoral thing to be married

You're supposed to have sex with lots of people. That's what it means to be moral I mean we're talking is this not

Calling white black and black white what is good evil and evil good. Yeah, is that you know

I These these are nations. We all live in nations right now if you can understand my voice basically we live in nations that have had

Tremendous testimonies of the gospel right and when you spit on that and stomp on that and and say

I don't want that There's going to be a reaction there's gonna be a response and I don't know why so many evangelicals are afraid to point that out

But that's the reality and that's we're dealing with so anyways all righty sir sir.

Thanks for your time. Thank you. God bless Okay, bye -bye All righty, let's continue on with our bank of phone calls here

And Let's I I had to ask about this because Steve wants to ask a question about Eschatology so this could be real short.

I don't know hi Steve. How you doing? James you know that you're sort of pushing things here a little bit

You don't remember me. Do you of course not well? I called you. I was in Iraq. How you doing?

Oh? Well, you said you don't have quite the delay from Virginia that you do from Iraq though Exactly Hey, I've basically a

For lack of better terms. I've never really delved too deep into eschatology. I See one for you.

No. I'm with you brother. I don't delve too deeply into at least okay. Let's define eschatology because There may be folks listening.

You don't know what we're talking about eschatology is the study of last things that's good toss last The problem is eschatology has a what

I would call a dogmatic segment And then it has what we might call the the warfare segment the dogmatic segment is

Christ is returning the concepts of resurrection Judgment heaven and hell those are all the dogmatic elements of eschatology, but what most people know about eschatology has to do with stuff that Makes certain people millionaires because they write series of books that sell millions and millions and millions and millions of copies

Fiction it well and not only that but it's uh, but the you sell them in grocery stores, too, and they do real well, so You've got the pre millers and the odd millers and the post millers and and even amongst the pre millers.

You've got some incredible battles between Pre -tribbers mid -tribbers and post -tribbers.

I mean I honestly in my in my life I have known people who would not even say hello

To a pastor in a almost identical church right across town

Because one person was a pre -tribber and the other was a mid -tribber I mean the difference between a pre -tribulation rapture and a mid -tribulation rapture three and a half years for those of you

Who know what I'm talking about they would not even have fellowship with one another So strong was their conflict over something like that, so maybe

I'm overreacting to that But that's the kind of attitude that I've reacted against and said man.

I don't want any of that We have members in our church of all the three major eschatologies as far as that issues concerned

We have pre millers on millers and post millers in our church And we all managed to come to the

Lord's table together and and not each other's faces and things like that so it's a good thing Okay, so my question is

I guess basically it's just What is your view I'm Really indifferent just to kind of get an idea of where to start steering down this path, and why?

But you mean my view on that issue. Yeah, well, I sort of announced it I think it was when was that I have to go back and look at my blog

Was that this year or last year? I was at April this year. Okay, we had a We had a big thing where you could you could write in and well actually it was just people in the chat channel

But you could guess what my eschatology was going to be and and I sort of took a position and said okay This is sort of why but I'm never gonna argue about this with anybody you want to call in argue

You can you can believe me. There's plenty of places you can argue, but I by default by Simplicity am an amillennialist that is

I believe that two things first of all keep it simple stupid and Amillennialism is by far the simplest way of looking at April 2004 last year, okay

Looking at the issue of eschatology secondly the issue of ages that is the you the biblical term age and The fact that we live in this present evil age, and then there is an age to come

There is no Period between them in Jesus eschatology if you examine his use of the term age

He talks about how during this age You've got the the sons of the kingdom, and you've got the the wheat and the tares and and so on so forth

But in the next age it will not be that way And you've got the resurrection and and there seems to be just this age and the age to come

Not this age then seven years and it's divide in here and blah blah blah blah blah blah and all this very complicated stuff

That goes into that now many of my reformed forebears Were Were postmillennialists and they you know you you read a book like the

Puritan promise and and Puritan hope I'm sorry and things like that and they argue very strongly for postmillennialism and of course

I could I Could very much like I put it this way I was raised pre mill and And Certainly Matthew chapter 24 gives almost anybody fits to make it fit perfectly

I don't care what your position is I was raised pre mill. I've adopted on mill, and I could hope that it was post mill.

I used to take the old Position of pan millennialism it'll all pan out in the end

That's that's I think that's the safest one to take until you know you do far more reading than actually

I've ended up doing in This whole thing So you know, but that's that's sort of a default issue for me.

I personally think There's a number of areas where there's a lot more work needs to be done than has been done

I think it's more important for example that we would be spending time Discussing for example the issue of punishment and hell

There's all sorts of huge books out there attacking that and almost nothing responding to it

And yet the fact the matter is most people can run around and quote the left -behind series left and right and give you everything

There is to know about Premillennial dispensationalism and yet they know nothing about those particular aspects

And they think this is all there is and in fact I was telling somebody once that About what my eschatology was because they had asked me and they were shocked that there was any other view

Other than what was in the left -behind series. They didn't know there was anything else and So, you know

Oh Absolutely, and if you question it if you if you show any other different understanding you're automatically looked on as possibly being a member of a cult and and So, you know,

I understand that mindset. I I have vivid memories as a junior or senior in high school

During a high school lock -in at the church I was at using my tritium lit watch to read from Matthew 24 and Explaining to the other guys in my group at this lock -in where you stay overnight with the youth group at this lock -in

The meaning of the the budding of the vine of the olive tree in Matthew 24

And we know that's always a picture of the nation of Israel So once Nate the nation of Israel's become a nation again, then you have one generation until the end and that was 1948 and so 40 years from 1948 to 1988 and This was like 1978 or 79 or 80 around in there and so we're getting right near the end, you know and and I saw

I don't know how many times I saw thief in the night and Which is I I've been told thief in the night is still the number one

Rented Christian video out there and if you've never seen it, you've at least got to see it for historical reasons

But it presents the pre -mail position very very vividly and and in a very 1969 ish way, so it's sort of fun to watch but so I know

I've been there done that got the t -shirt I got the books. I sat in my senior Tests as a senior in high school when

I get done. I'd pull out a Hal Lindsey book. I was there. I know so Anyways, they've done that cut the t -shirt you got it

You got a quick question any books that you'd recommend on debating or how to debate or points of debate?

Oh goodness Huh You know, I've the irony there is

I have various academic books in the sense of debate rules and things like that But actually the process of debate.

I never took any classes on it You listen to a bunch of debates, well, you know, ironically no

I really didn't I had heard some debates before I did my first debate against gerrymatitics, but no

This has always been something that was just something that I was capable of doing it was just just an ability a capacity to listen and respond on the fly detect

Errors and argumentation. I'm sure there are such books I've found most of them that I've picked up because I have picked up a few books on debate from Amazon or something like that But I've found most of them to be rather dry and uninteresting

To be honest with you listening to two good debates helps out a lot Listening to to Greg Bonson and Gordon Stein is always a lot of a lot of fun and Listening to folks who are able to clearly express themselves and to do so succinctly

Really helps out a lot Greg Bonson stuff on logic is very useful along those lines

His book always ready would be from a Christian perspective would be very useful along those lines as well

I know we carry that one at a omen org So those would be some of the things but you know

There might be some excellent works out there and I'm just I've just not encountered them or not read them or or I've forgotten

There I'd like to get into I listen to Your debate with Stafford a lot and right

Yeah, it's just it's an area that I'd like to definitely get into be honest with you part part of it is just simply experience

I mean, I can tell you and we're the the music's about to start But the biggest thing for me is like in the debate with crossin

I knew exactly what he was gonna say before he said it and when you know that about your opponent

You're ready to engage in a good debate. You're you're gonna you're gonna do well that type of a situation. Alrighty Hey, welcome.

Welcome home. Thanks a lot. God bless Alrighty. Well, thank you so much to the callers I didn't even

I didn't even have to read John Shelby's pong today, which probably is a good thing Make the whole day go better and thanks for listening in an hour early today.

We will be back on Tuesday Lord willing at 2 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time.

See you then. God bless I've been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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