Objections to Election

No Compromise Radio

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

00:07

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

00:16

Apostle Paul said, "...but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you."

00:24

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

00:30

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

00:40

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. How fast can

00:46

I say that, Pastor? Steve is in the house. Welcome to Tuesday Man on Saturday. Thank you very much. Thank you. And all of that is probably recorded,

00:54

Steve, with music in the background. It's great to be here. Now, if you would like to get your own music and your own intro and all that stuff for the

01:02

Saturday shows, you can, but that's going to be at your feet, as it were. You have to do all that planning and everything else.

01:10

I think it should still be maybe No Compromise Radio ministry, but you can pick whatever music you want, and that's up to you.

01:17

It's your own free will. But see, I don't need any disclaimer, do I? You know what?

01:22

It's not going out over here. No, that's right. No disclaimer. I'm not going to disclaimer. And it says, and your host,

01:28

Mike Abendroth or whatever, and I think you could just get rid of that, too. Yeah. You know what would be really good is if we could, and your host,

01:35

Mikey, and then just the scratching sound, you know, that would be awesome. Would be perfect. Some kind of LP. It's like taking the needle off a

01:41

Pat Benatar album that you never wanted to hear. Why are you dogging Pat Benatar? She's never my...

01:48

It wasn't my style. That wasn't the taste that I liked. Oh, okay. But she can sing. Well, maybe.

01:54

Maybe. Maybe? Maybe. I mean, she's got like a four octave voice. Four octave. Seriously.

02:00

Well, I should probably bow to Steve's wisdom on this, his Sophia on this, because he at second service actually leads the hymns at Bethlehem Bible Church.

02:10

Thank you. Thank you very much. And when you put the microphone down, what would that mean? That would mean...

02:15

When you embed that... That would mean I don't want to sing a solo. Steve, tell me about your

02:23

IBS class. I'm sure it's wrapping up now in terms of the timing, but you'll be able to get it online.

02:30

Give me your overall course and what it was about and the books you're using, because it's going to lead into our subject today, please.

02:36

Couple more weeks to go, but we first read through Norm Geisler's, what's that called?

02:42

Chosen But Free. Chosen But Free. I think that was Free As The Wind Blows. I watched that show when I was...

02:49

And now we're doing The Potter's Freedom. But the idea was...

02:55

Potter's Freedom, is that T .D. Jakes? No, that's James White. Oh, I thought that's The Potter's House, T .D.

03:01

Jakes. Boy, oh boy. James, if James White ever hears this show, you're in a lot of trouble, pal. The only show that James ever hears of No Compromise Radio is when he himself is talking and dominates the conversation.

03:14

I ask him one question, and 24 minutes later, I have to say, that's the end of the show for No Compromise Radio. Yeah, I'm going to email him and tell him to listen to this show whenever it airs.

03:21

Alpha and Omega Ministries. That is the great thing about James, because I normally have to tell guests, listen,

03:28

I'm always on the radio, and they hear from me all the time, but when I ask you a question,

03:33

I'd appreciate an open answer, not just a closed yes or no. So run with it. Nope. For James, you don't have to say anything like that.

03:42

True. False. Correct. Incorrect. So, back to T .D.

03:48

Jakes, Potter's House, Potter's Freedom. So anyway, reading through those two books and comparing and contrasting the so -called moderate

03:56

Calvinism of Norman Geisler versus the extreme sovereignty view of James White.

04:05

I think that's the X Games view. Well, and, you know, right away, I mean, Norm Geisler kind of sets himself up for a fall because he calls himself moderate and actually sets everybody else up for a fall.

04:17

We call that poisoning the well. It's a logical fallacy. Poisoning. Well, it is.

04:22

That is exactly, you know, what do you do? You label your opponents as extremists, as nutcases, and then, you know, you're the voice of reason and moderation, and thus you win the debate automatically.

04:35

And Norm Geisler does that in his book. I mean, he calls it moderate Calvinism. He calls his own views moderate

04:41

Calvinism. But as we discover when we read through the book, there's nothing to do with Calvinism really in it except for attacking

04:48

Calvinism. And then he also just really, sorry to say, mangles scripture, just kind of hop, skips, and jumps his way through verses without dwelling in a particular context long enough to explain it.

05:08

Well, when I think of mangling, I think of hair and how hair needs conditioner on it sometimes because it's all...

05:17

Steve, if you had to have a hybrid view of White and Geisler, do you think you could get on a computer program simulation and morph

05:28

White's face with Norman Geisler's face, and what would we come up with, a hybrid view of Calvinism?

05:35

I don't know because actually I've never, honestly, I don't think I've ever seen Norman Geisler's face. Okay. So talking about all these issues, the big three in 1

05:44

Timothy 2, verse 4 and 6, and 2 Peter 3, verse 9, Matthew 23,

05:50

I believe, it leads me into the discussion for today, and that is objections to election.

05:56

Now, there's a lot of them, but online on monergism .com, I found William Sasser's Objections to Election that will serve as our template.

06:05

We're not going to read this or anything. You can go online and read that if you'd like, but Steve and I are going to use Sasser as a template.

06:11

It's a short for sasserdotal. See? Don't you want to say that? Yeah. It just lends itself to say words like that, sasserdotal, sasser.

06:19

Don't you sasser me, young man. Who is William Sasser? I don't know. That's another show.

06:25

Objections to Election. So I'll say the objection, and then Steve, in light of his theological weightlifting at IBS class and other things, and he can go along the line of answering the objection, and then if he needs help, then he'll throw out a lifeline.

06:42

Can I phone a friend? We could have a theological, whatever that show is called.

06:48

What's it called? Who Wants to be a Millionaire. Yeah. Who Wants to be a Theologian. Wouldn't that be fun?

06:54

Who Wants to be a Doctrineer. Yeah. Yeah. Who Wants to be a Doctrineer, and then you could have a special thing.

06:59

You could call Carl Truman if you had to. Or you could Carl Truman. Carl Truman becomes a verb.

07:05

Yeah, that's right. So objections to election. Unconditional election is what we're having objections to.

07:12

That's the issue. Nobody has... Let's just start with that before we even get to number one. This is a prequel. No one has,

07:19

Steve, objections to conditional election, humanly speaking, fleshly speaking.

07:24

That's fine. Why is that? Well, if God wants to choose on the basis of what we do, people are fine with that.

07:30

See, and in this works -based system that we live in, merit -based, we have to earn things.

07:36

We have to merit things. You go to your work, and you clock in, and they give you eight hours' worth of pay.

07:42

And the boss says, here's my gift to you at the end of the day, and hands you your paycheck.

07:47

You say, no way. Yeah, because it's not actually a... Well, it is a gift, but you have to receive it, right, to get the paycheck.

07:55

You have to put your hand out to receive it. What if you just say, put it on my table? Well, then you still have to pick it up from the table.

08:03

Or if you have automatic deposit, you still have to take the money out of the checking account. Steve, do you now deposit checks via your phone now and click the front of the check and the back of the check and say, hit deposit?

08:15

Nein, danke. Oh, I do that, but it's just scary, because then I have all the checks still at home now.

08:21

Yeah, what do you do with them? I just keep them around in case I ever am short on money.

08:27

So you can double cash them. Nice. Objections to election. William Sasser, number one. It is unjust to men.

08:34

Steve, that's the problem. Unconditional election, God choosing people in eternity, passed based on His own free will,

08:41

His own good pleasure. That's unjust to men. Well, okay.

08:47

It's unfair in the sense that it presumes that men are incapable of saving themselves and that they are,

08:55

I guess I'd have to use the terminology, totally depraved. It's based on that presumption.

09:02

If you have in your heart the idea that men are inherently good, then maybe you can say it's unjust.

09:09

The problem is fairness would demand, if everybody gets what they deserve, then everyone goes to hell.

09:15

You, me, every single person on the planet sins against God and their right, or their end, would be eternity in hell.

09:27

Steve, the way I'm trying to think through this in my mind, as I think kind of on opposite day, the opposite way of devil's advocate or however you want to term that, unjust to men.

09:39

So since the doctrine is in Scripture, who could ever come up with such an objection because basically it impugns the nature and character of God.

09:48

God, you did something. You chose these 12 apostles, not the rest. You chose Israel and not the

09:53

Hittites. You're unjust. It just strikes me as, as we would say in Nebraska, the gall of people.

10:01

Although this is no different than the Tower of Babel, our, we will not have this man rule over us.

10:07

Well, what Geisler does over and over again in his book is he declares that God is love and that's his, he calls him omnibenevolent.

10:16

In other words, that he's all good, all loving, all the time to all people in equal measure.

10:22

Well then how can some people be the children of God and some people be the children of the devil? Oh, it's their choice.

10:28

It is entirely their choice. And you listen to or you read

10:34

Norman Geisler and you figure out quite easily that mankind is bound by sin by their own choice.

10:43

They submit themselves to sin and make themselves sin's slave. So when

10:50

President Obama, either in January of 2013 or January of 2017, steps down—

11:00

Allegedly. Allegedly, yes. And he pardons some people with his executive privilege power.

11:08

Is he required then to pardon everyone or can he just pardon a few? Well, if he loves all men equally without—

11:16

Well maybe that would be in line with socialistic, communistic views. I don't know if he has those, but that would be in line with those views.

11:22

If he's omnibenevolent, he must pardon everyone for everything they've ever done. Number two, the second objection to election from William's sacerdotalism, number two is it represents

11:34

God as partial. See, God, now he's a respecter of persons, and Steve, I thought God is not a respecter of persons.

11:41

How would we deal with that? Well, I mean, if God were to say, you know,

11:48

I really like Mike. You know, Mike is really my guy, and Steve, not so much.

11:56

Well— Steve, not so much. That sounds like the message kind of language.

12:03

This is how God talks. Thus saith the Lord. Mike's really my guy. Steve, not so much. And yeah, a message moment.

12:10

I mean, it really—when I think of Ephesians 1, and I think it's verses 6, 12, and 14, something like that, and over and over again in Ephesians 1, it talks about God elects and does all this work on behalf of the elect for his glory.

12:28

That's the reason, not because he favors one person or another or whatever. It's so that at the end of time and in heaven forever, his glory may be made manifest in those he chose, in those he perfected, in those he died for.

12:47

That's the objective, not because he likes somebody more than another. Steve, what

12:54

Sasser does, he says, well, then how do we apply this charge of partiality to God and the angels, some fallen, some not?

13:04

How do we apply that charge to Israel? God chose Israel, Deuteronomy 7, because he loved them, not because they were great or strong or anything else.

13:13

What about that? What about Cyrus, when God chooses Cyrus as his servant in Isaiah?

13:19

This is—doesn't it just all boil back to, we are prideful people. We don't want to have anybody to tell us what to do.

13:26

We are sinful, and we don't like it that there is a God who rules and reigns.

13:32

But if we're not careful, we're going to be eating grass and having our fingernails grow real long pretty soon.

13:37

Yep, exactly as happened in Daniel. But it really gets back to what

13:43

James White describes as the potter's freedom. Ultimately, who is free? Is it man?

13:49

Is his will free, or is God's will free? And Romans 9 makes it clear, you know, he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

13:59

And then Paul even asked the question, well, you will ask me then, you know, wouldn't it be unjust of God or unjust of God to do this?

14:08

And he says very bluntly, who are you, O man, who answers to God or who asks

14:14

God? Will the potter say to—or will the thing that is made say to the potter, why did you make me like this?

14:20

Who are we to ask God anything? And that is ultimately the question.

14:26

When Nebuchadnezzar said, hey, I did all this myself, look at what I have done,

14:32

I have fancied this and I have fancied that, I've made this and made that, then soon he was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with a dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as the eagle's feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.

14:49

Steve, how long does it take to have your hair grow out as long as the eagle's feathers? Probably about three, four weeks.

14:55

My hair grows pretty fast. Your hair grows fast. I think, what is it, six inches a year an average person's hair grows, and so you've got the uber growth.

15:04

I've always known I was above average. Steve, I think the Wall Street Journal has just written an article about if you're having shorter hair or balder hair or you shave your head, people respect you more.

15:16

So what would that say about my short hair and your full hair? Well, I would say that it would mean that you have a certain air of, you know, but you know, it's interesting because you still do have hair.

15:29

I mean, you have that kind of, the guy from, I'm trying to think of...

15:35

Jean -Luc Picard. No, no, no. He was in a boy band and now his hair is all, he's got the widow's peak going on and, you know...

15:42

Who is that? I'm trying to think of the name. Steve has just said I look like somebody in a boy band. Well, you know, in the 80s they were a boy band.

15:50

Now they're like an old men band. Okay. All right. Well... I'll think of his name later.

15:56

Off -air, of course. If I could lose a few pounds, I would go back to shaving my head again, but there's something to be said for hair, contouring the figure.

16:04

Oh, is that right? Yeah. It's kind of like when you do lats because if you get your lats going, then your stomach gets the same, but it just seems different.

16:12

It seems smaller. That's right. Objections to election? No Compromise Radio. You can write us at info at nocompromiseradio .com.

16:18

William Sasser, election objections, number three. It represents God as arbitrary.

16:24

I don't really know what the difference between partial and arbitrary is. Well, I do know, but let's ask, let's let

16:29

Steve talk about that a little bit. He loves me. He loves me not. Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.

16:35

Is that how God picks? Again, I just think this misses the mark entirely. You know, why does

16:40

God choose some and not others? Because for his glory is one reason, but it's for his purposes, and we don't understand his purposes.

16:51

That doesn't make them entirely arbitrary. I mean, arbitrary, you want an arbitrary God, you would have to go to Islam where you can be everything that the

17:01

Quran says you should be, and God can still not let you into heaven. That would be arbitrary, but election is not arbitrary.

17:07

Steve, we know that God is a triune God. He's a personal God. He is a relational

17:13

God. He's a God who loves his people. We can call him Father based on Christ's work.

17:19

And because of that, he has good reasons, but we are not told of his reasons. Remember, Paul was an ambassador to the

17:27

Gentiles, and he had to reveal the mystery of the secret counsel of God that no one knew in eternity past, but God revealed to Paul so he could tell the

17:36

Gentiles about how great the church was. Well, to me, this is the same thing. It's not mysterious.

17:42

It's a mystery, and I think probably in heaven we'll know why God chose one person and he didn't choose another.

17:48

He has a reason. He hasn't just told us, he just hasn't told us the reason, except he wants to show, for instance, with Paul in 1

17:55

Timothy, that he's a very, very patient God and long -suffering. Well, and you know, one of the aspects we really haven't talked that much about is the grace of God, and what

18:05

Geisler does, and many Arminians do, is they present the grace of God as being universal, and it's out there for the taking.

18:13

It's like a giant unending pizza pie, and it's all cut into slices, and we just have to take a slice.

18:22

And the Bible never presents grace as dependent on us and our choice, and you know, the question is, does grace actually do something, or is it just available to do something?

18:34

Well, even when people talk about the atonement, they fall into that Arminian kind of talk and verbiage, don't they,

18:41

Steve? When it's God made possible salvation, Christ's work made redemption possible, made reconciliation possible, made propitiation possible.

18:52

And that kind of language, I guess it's ultimately true that if it wasn't for this, it would be impossible to be saved.

19:00

But the language of Scripture is, to quote John Murray's book, redemption accomplished, and then later the

19:05

Spirit of God, what, applies it. It's definite. I mean, when we look at, for example, one word, propitiation, we never see the wrath of God being propitiated, that is, satisfied, and then being unsatisfied.

19:18

You know, when Christ died, God's wrath was propitiated for all those who would ever believe.

19:28

And the propitiation wasn't universal, and then kind of withdrawn based on rejection.

19:35

So which, again, is an entirely Arminian viewpoint and not consistent with Scripture.

19:41

This next one, Steve, is the one that I'm really after today, and I think you'll enjoy talking about it too and dismantling it.

19:47

We're talking about objections to unconditional election. Just as a template, we're using William Sasser from monergism .com.

19:54

Four, this is the fourth objection, and this is just so backward, Steve. This is a launching point.

20:00

This is NOCO Radio at its best. It inspires pride in those who think they are elect.

20:09

That is so upside down. Steve, I'm a wicked, vile, sinful, selfish person, even as a

20:16

Christian. I'm not blaming God for that. I'm blaming myself for that. But I don't know if I ever seriously have been prideful because I've been chosen.

20:25

It's the exact opposite to me. I never think, oh, I've been chosen by God. When I first learned the doctrines of grace,

20:31

I got a little bit carried away, and I had a tattoo put on my chest that says elect. So you know...

20:38

Well, and see, everything happens for a reason in this karma world, because I used to sell lasers, and I guess

20:44

I could probably use some of those lasers to take off those tattoos. This whole idea is...

20:51

It really is upside down. I mean, it is like, you know, to read that is for me the same as when

21:00

Charlton Heston in The Planet of the Apes is, you know, realizes how crazy the world is, and he screams it's a madhouse.

21:06

To call... I mean, there is no more humbling doctrine in all of Scripture than the sovereignty of God and salvation, and the idea that He would choose me is beyond my ability to fully grasp, because I've said it on many occasions,

21:20

I wouldn't choose me. I mean, I know me, and I'm like, I wouldn't set my affections on me.

21:25

I wouldn't send my son to die for me, because if I were God, I never would have chose

21:31

Steve Kuhl. Steve, 1 Thessalonians 1, Romans 11,

21:39

Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1, these are all cases where election is not bantered back and forth in some football game of debate, is this true or not?

21:51

It's a practical doctrine that instills praise, that inspires Christians to say,

21:58

God is worthy of my, you know, I want to magnify

22:03

God with my voice and my heart. That's exactly what this is supposed to do. It's supposed to crush pride.

22:08

Why was Paul chosen? Well, it wasn't in Paul. And he says, you know, I was the chief of sinners and all these kind of things.

22:15

You know, my question is, what makes you worship God more, the idea that He chose you or the idea that you chose

22:22

Him? You know, God, I'm so glad I chose you. I mean, what kind of lousy hymn would that be?

22:28

But the thing is, lots of Christians, even though they would never say that, at the end of the day, that's what they believe, until they get on their knees and pray for their loved ones.

22:39

God, aren't you glad I chose you? I mean, that's kind of the Arminian view, right? I mean, it's perverse.

22:46

We're looking for Saturday show music for Tuesday, Guy. I guess you could record your own. It could be everything.

22:53

Remember, I've told you the story about some of those pastors, you go to the church and so the pastor gets up, he reads from the pulpit the announcements, then he reads the call to worship, then he leads the songs, then he reads the scripture, then he does the pastoral prayer, then he preaches, then he does the call.

23:11

And he also does the dancing ministry. Well, no wonder pastors get tired on Sundays.

23:18

So today on No Compromise Radio, we're talking about objections to unconditional election.

23:23

And I want to encourage you to go to bbcchurch .org, go to the IBS section and pull up Steve's classes and you can listen to them online.

23:30

There is one last one, Steve. We have like a minute and something left. Objections to election template here by William Sasser, William Sasser.

23:38

And it is, five, it discourages efforts for the salvation of sinners. Completely false.

23:45

What does Geisler say about that? He mentions it. I mean, he doesn't really have anything good to say about Calvinists and distorts everything that they do say, but he didn't really focus that much on this one.

23:57

But here's the obvious thing. If you are preaching the gospel indiscriminately, like you were sowing seed, let's say, for example, to use a biblical illustration.

24:10

If you're sowing the seed indiscriminately, knowing that God is going to cause growth in some, then what are you encouraged to do or discouraged to do?

24:19

I mean, are you discouraged to preach the gospel or encouraged to do it? And I think the answer is obvious. You're encouraged because the more people that you preach to, well, it doesn't necessarily see that you'll mean that you'll see more fruit.

24:33

But God is going to use that in those that he's designed to use it and it won't go out for nothing.

24:40

To quote Isaiah. Thankfully, we're not Isaiah who, earlier than what you're quoting, just basically said, you know what?

24:48

God is going to give me a ministry where I'm going to see no fruit. The fruit is going to be hardening people. And so for we, for us, rather, for we, we get to see gospel fruit most likely in our lives if we live long enough to preach the gospel and then see somebody saved.

25:05

Which is, there's nothing better than that. And, you know, sometimes we just, we look at who God has saved and we're shocked.

25:12

NoCo Radio. God bless. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

25:20

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

25:29

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

25:36

You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

25:45

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.