Talkin' Calvinism with James White

Romans 8 as the Capstone of Christianity

So, Dr. White, it's good to see you again.

You just survived an hour-long sermon for me, so congratulations.

Well, I missed the first few minutes because I was interviewing Dr. Waldron. I didn't realize you had started.

I did see you sit right in the doorway.

I did, but I didn't want to walk in. When I walk in, people see it. And not because I'm important, but just because I'm, you know.

Yeah, okay.

So, no, I didn't want to disturb you, but yeah, I sat out in the doorway and listened. And you did get fired up there at the end.

Well, preachers aren't supposed to be dispassionate. And when you're talking about—if you're in Rome, if you can be dispassionate in Romans 8, you might want to take up selling life insurance or something like that because it's been described by so many people as the capstone of Christianity, the pinnacle, the highest—I mean, that section about the golden chain and then the law court and who can separate us from the love of Christ.

It's hard to think of almost anything in the New Testament that could eclipse it as far as the depth of revelation. And then he finishes the chapter just with praise. I mean, what else can you say?

I remember one commentary I was reading said if the Bible were a ring, the Book of Romans would be like the precious stone and chapter 8 would be like the glistening port of the stone. And obviously the Word of God is all the Word of God.

But yet there are parts that seem to apply in certain areas that are very meaningful. And when it begins with no condemnation and ends with no separation, hard to beat that.

Very much so, and that's why I got fired up. But we covered a lot of ground before then.

Interpreting Romans 8:28 and the Golden Chain of Redemption

Sure, and I do want to talk to you about Romans 8 because I understand, especially as a student of yours and a person who's studied Reformed theology now almost 20 years, being a Calvinist beginning around 2004 was when I was first introduced to Calvinism and I read your book, Debating Calvinism, that same year.

When did I first come to the church?

You were at the church in 2010, 2011, something like that. But I met you before that. I met you at the John Shelby Spong debate. That was when we did the hamburger thing.

That's right.

I brought you the hamburger, watched you eat it, which is so awkward. But what year was John Shelby Spong? Was that 06?

You know, Michael Fallon remembers all of those things. Michael Fallon would tell you what year it was, what ship we went on the cruise, what hotels we stayed at. It's scary. I just go, yes, I debated John Shelby Spong, and he's dead now.

Yes, I did a whole show about his death. One of my friends and I just talking about his wackadoo theology. It's sad, absolutely, that he never repented of that. But the reason why I bring up this, you know, been in Reformed theology certainly not as long as you, but long enough to sort of have heard some of the arguments against it and being around people.

I read, you know, my first book, Introducing, it was debating Calvinism with Dave Hunt, you and Dave Hunt.

Half the book was pretty good.

But that was what helped me. I mean, that helped direct me. And like I said, being a student of yours, there is certainly a lot of debate, not only about Romans 9, but about Romans 8. And beginning at verse 28 when God promises that he's going to work or he declares that he causes all things to work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.

And then we have what Reformed theologians call the golden chain of redemption. There are many people, including our friend Leighton, who would say we've missed the boat on this. And you've just preached, obviously, a masterful sermon on why that's not true.

But can you speak to some of the specific arguments against it, some of the things that people say? Because honestly, I want to say this, of all the passages that convinced me, and I mean John 6, Jesus in John 8, John 17, those passages certainly were hugely important, and obviously I don't discount the words of Christ.

But when Paul says that whom he foreknew he justified, I'm sorry, whom he foreknew he predestined, whom he predestined he called, and in my mind calling comes after predestination. And that's the answer.

If the calling doesn't come until you've already been predestined, if that's the logical order of events, that seems to answer most of my questions.

I sort of touched on it in the sermon, but basically the standard way around Romans 8 is to say that whom he foreknew is not—. People aren't pressed to recognize that this is an action on God's part. Instead, they go, well, God foresaw.

He looked down the corridors of time. They'll normally be loath to give you a sufficient biblical theology to explain any of this, but God knew who was going to believe in him, and therefore he predestined them to be conformed to the image of his Son.

So the predestination—I'm just giving you what some people have said.

Oh, that's what I'm asking. What are some of the ways that they get around it?

There's different spins, but for many people the idea is that predestination is of an unknown group of people to a particular end. God has predestined that everyone who believes in Jesus will eventually be conformed to his image.

And so the fundamental object of predestination is an end result, but not the individuals who will experience that end result. And so the problem with that is this is coming directly out of the Spirit indwelling us, interceding for us.

This is very clearly the saints of God. The Spirit's interceding for them. It's going to end up in the Son interceding for them. You have to disconnect the sections. It's sort of like when you go to John 6.

You've got to disconnect John 6, 37 from 39, and then disconnect that from 44. And the big thing is disconnect 45 from 44, then read everything backwards in light of it. That's how you've got to do it.

Then you jump over to John 12. If you follow all the way through and go, I want to know when Paul wrote this letter to the Romans and he knew it was going to be read in the congregation and this was all they were going to hear, what would they have heard and understood it to be saying?

And if you go there, you have to follow these things through. And so the us, it's very clear who they are. It's identified multiple times as God's elect, God's people. And the connectivity of what the Father's doing, what the Spirit's doing, what the Son's doing, it's beautiful, it's compelling.

And I can't force someone to want to handle the Word of God in such a way as to honor it. And if someone has their traditions and there are certain people who are wedded to their traditions with such emotion that they can literally find me to be not only a challenge but an enemy.

They really can. They find that my challenging their traditions and they can respond very emotionally. You can't get over that. Look, only the Spirit of God can give someone the desire to be submitted to God's truth even when it means that everything I am and everything I ever will be, I owe to God.

I've got nothing to boast of. I will never have anything to boast of. If I'm in Christ, it's because He chose me to be in Christ. That rips all of that other stuff out. And I've had people crying. I went to Italy.

I've only been to Italy once. And I was asked to speak on election in Brethren churches. Now, if you know the Brethren, you really had to start adding the Brethren to your denominational thing. You could do some fun stuff with the Brethren.

You really, really could. But I was in a Brethren church speaking with translation, stop-start translation, which means if you've ever done it, it's very challenging.

I was invited to go to South America to teach at one point, and that was the way it was going to end up.

Was that at Fiel?

No, it was a Reformation teaching group, and they're starting this school down there. And it was going to be that. It was going to be like five days, and I was going to teach ecclesiology. And it ended up not working out, but my goodness.

My first time was in Brazil.

Okay.

And stop-start.

It was Columbia.

It was Reformation Columbia.

Okay.

I was in Brazil, and I almost gave up after my first sermon because it totally throws your cadence off. It throws everything off. I eventually got over it. But in Italy there, they had told me all along that this guy who was translating me was going to be the best.

We did not get along. We could not get on the right page. We're stumbling over each other. I was exhausted. It was horrible. It was 10 o 'clock at night. I get done with my presentation. A woman stands up in the back, and she's crying, and she's pointing to the wall behind me.

I knew what was on the wall behind me. In Italian, it's John 3 .16.

Oh, wow.

And so can you imagine how hard it is to try to deal with a crying woman at 10 o 'clock at night in translation who doesn't understand how what you just said about election is consistent with John 3 .16?

I've been there. I've seen it. I understand. My hope is that years down the road, pastors could speak to her in her own language and minister to her. But look, the fact of the matter is there are going to be some people who just respond so emotionally.

It doesn't matter who you are. You're not going to get through it. You're not going to be able to get through it.

And I do think that is one of the bigger things I've dealt with, and this is certainly not unilateral or universal, but it oftentimes is ladies who do get emotional. And again, I'm not saying only women get emotional.

Men get emotional too. But when there's this almost like are you saying what about my children? And that often is the issue. I was talking to a gentleman earlier who does ministry, parenting ministry, and he said we were talking about Calvinism and parenting ministry.

He said that's the first question people have. Well, what if one of my children is not elect?

He saw the debate I did in 01 with George Bryson.

Oh, yeah, the Bryson debate.

And that was his thing. What he's telling you is to the parents is this is about your children. Your children, this is about your parents. And it was clearly intentional on his part to raise those barriers because he knew he couldn't answer the exegesis.

Yeah.

Friendship, Humor, and Conference Camaraderie

Well, Dr. White, I know you've got a lot going on here. I want to thank you again for this wonderful I want to show a picture of this wonderful gift.

Well, Keith, I love you. I want to say you did a great job in your presentation yesterday. I mentioned that on Twitter. I am literally telling people now on Twitter and other places that I knew Keith Foskey before he was the great Christian comedian of the Internet.

And Luke Pearson, one of my fellow elders at Apologia, I was driving sometime last week on one of these legs, and he sent

The Jehovah Witness one?

I think it was, yes. It was the Reformed

Because I mentioned Jeff.

I never mentioned Jeff in a video, but it was

You got two of the four elders.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And he sent that to our whole group. And he says how did he put it? This hit me in the laughs. This hit me in the laughs is how he put it. So when my own elders are sending me your stuff, you're getting around real well.

And I think you have a wonderful ability to communicate along those lines. I don't know if you know him. Have you been on Iron Sharpens Iron with Chris Aronson?

Chris and I have a funny relationship because anytime somebody cancels, he calls me and says, hey, can you be on today?

He does that to me before he calls you. There's about five of us he calls when he does that.

So I've been on his show quite a bit.

Have you ever heard the introductions to the debates?

Oh, yeah.

I've listened to most of your especially the early debates. I mean

The man is a it could be a stand-up comedian. He is hilarious. The music that he's done, have you ever heard his

Oh, the

Marty, Marty, Marty, Marty.

I've got it. It's great.

He did that for the first time at Tuscarora at a youth retreat for Hope Reform Baptist Church. And so I was in the front row, and he's right in front of me. And the man is a comedian.

Oh, yeah.

He truly, truly is. He now says I'm funnier than him because when I first met him

I heard you say that the other day, yeah.

Yeah.

When I first met him, I was a dyed-in-the-wool, boring, dead-colored-tied Reformed Baptist.

That was the Where's Waldo days, the little glasses?

Oh, it was horrible.

It was horrible.

And I picked up so much of that from Chris.

Yeah.

And I have come to use a lot more humor in my speaking and stuff like that than I even could have back then. So I do appreciate it. And so you and Chris together, we've got to get you guys together to do something because I think literally, physically together, the expressions that he can do, if you could get him in one of your denominational things, it would be hilarious.

Well, he's been to our church several times, even outside. He was there when you came. But he's been for other things and other conferences and stuff. Chris and I have become really good friends.

Well, good.

You guys have got to do something.

And I encourage people to support Iron Sharpens Iron. I always do because I know that this is his life. And to him, this is what he's dedicated himself to. And he's one of the greatest interviewers that I know.

Oh, he's very, very good.

The greatest.

He's very, very good, yeah. But, no, you did a great presentation on Luther's Calvinism yesterday. And you're a dear friend, and I'm very happy. I will look forward to seeing that bow tie. But, please, don't just limit it to that one.

I'll get some real ones.

Go to the website, and you will find some of the most beautiful bow ties there. And once you really get to do it well, they are really classy. They really are. And a lot of sports guys use them and stuff like that.

Fine, whatever. I think, for us, they're pretty cool. And if you don't remember from the video how to tie it, I learned by going to YouTube and finding a guy from a tuck shop, an old guy from a tuck shop, and just watching it.

Because it was that last push through in the hole that allows you to get that back bow. I just couldn't figure it out from reading the instructions. But once I saw it, it's like, duh, okay, that makes sense.

So, yeah, that's the way to do it.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Well, thank you, Dr. White. And I'll say this before we close. I've said it before, said it a thousand times. I'm very thankful just for the fact that when I see you, we can talk, and it really is like an old friend.

And I know we don't see each other much, but, you know, I'm so grateful.

And I'm grateful for all of you guys. This is a great conference. One advantage it has over G3 is you actually get to talk to everybody.

Yeah.

You know, I've never been to G3 except for your debate with Trent.

Which was his first debate against a Protestant. I just learned that.

Wow.

I didn't know that.

That was his first debate.

I came for the debate and had to leave. I couldn't stay for the G3. I've never been to the conference. I want to go just because I think it would be fun. It's just a financial thing.

Oh, sure.

I have six kids, and ones like this work out a little better for me.

Yeah.

God bless you, brother.

Thank you.

God bless.