Robert Schuller and Sin

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Studio Banter and a Traffic Court Story

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. Mike Abendroth in the studio with Steve Cooley, Tuesday Guy. Steve, how did you get the name Tuesday Guy?

You know, it was just something I dreamed up on a Wednesday.

Jimmy Carraway�s sidekick up in Pennsylvania, he�s known as a Wednesday Guy.

Yeah, well, that�s currently in litigation. I didn�t really think that was appropriate.

Got to send the sub-pena up there. Sub-pena.

Sub-pena. Yeah, going to nail him.

I didn�t know how that word was even spelt until recently.

Well, you would have no reason to know, right? I mean, my life used to be all about sub-penas.

Give us a little rundown about your background. You spent 20 years as an L .A. sheriff. How often did you have to go to the court?

I don�t mean to correct you, but it was 21 years. Okay. How often did you have to go to court? Not very often, except when I was in patrol, then, you know, you get sub-penas for everything, you know, whether it�s traffic court or whatever.

But when I was working in the jail, life was pretty simple.

If somebody�s in jail, could they file a lawsuit and then you have to, like, go to court and then they get out and they go to court and you go to court? How does that work?

I mean, they could sue me, but I mean, I�m thinking I probably only had one lawsuit against me. I think there was well, maybe there was another one, but that got dropped. But the one lawsuit was by, you know, an attorney and his wife.

I hit his wife. I didn�t hit her. My car hit her car while I was on duty and it did probably, I don�t know, a couple hundred dollars worth of damages. So you know, she sued me for all these I mean, a laundry list of physical ailments and so that was it was fun.

I think they wound up settling for nothing. How many times did someone get a ticket from you, just before you went to serve in the jail? Well, you�re out on a patrol car. You give them a ticket. You know, they ran the red light or whatever and now they�re going to, you know, fight it in court and you show up and then they actually beat you in court.

How often did that happen?

Not very often. I mean, there were two traffic courts. One judge was pretty much like everybody was guilty. The other one was pretty much like everyone was innocent. So you know, if I went to the �everyone is innocent� court and I actually won the case, I felt pretty good about that.

One of my favorite traffic stories. This is true. See, this is what I was after right here. I�m driving by the local hospital and there�s a great big road. I think it�s like three lanes in both directions.

Can you tell me the hospital because I probably was there. It was in Glendale.

Glendale Adventist. No. No, right by the 2 Freeway and right where the 2 and basically by the 2 and the 210 where they would meet. Huntington. Maybe. Huntington. Huntington Memorial. Is that the name of it?

There�s one in Pasadena there. Anyway, so I�m driving along and I see these two cars in the middle of this like massive street, right? But there�s very light traffic at this particular time and they�re just doing doughnuts in the street and I mean crossing the center line and just acting silly.

So I pull them over and I give them tickets. One guy decides he�s going to take me to court and he says, �You know what? I was just following my friend and he started driving all goofy and yada, yada, yada.

I was following him. All of a sudden this deputy is pulling me over and giving me a ticket but I�m not guilty of anything but trying to follow my friend here. The judge listened to him and he said, �Well, sir� and this is before I even get up and he says, �Based on your testimony, I have no choice but to find you guilty.

And the whole courtroom, because he had all these diagrams and everything, it was this whole great big presentation. He says, �Based on your testimony, I have no choice but to find you guilty. The whole courtroom just broke up in laughter.

I mean it was like probably two minutes of just laughing hysterically. It was really one of the funniest things I�ve ever seen. Based on your testimony. Yeah. I have no choice but to find you guilty. I was like that�s the most awesome thing.

Joel Osteen, Purging Books, and a Seminary Paper on Sin

Steve, here in the studio I have a variety of different books just stacked up here in our little recording area. And sometimes I pull out things that I�ve saved and so here�s a picture of Joel Osteen with a big face.

It�s a smiling face. A big face. He�s got a big face. A big smiling face. That�s what I meant. Okay. And here�s what it says. Okay. I kid you not. A listener wrote this, sent it in. There was no money but this is what they said.

�I declare. So this is supposed to be coming from Joel Osteen. �I declare that Pastor Mike and Tuesday Guy will be blessed with extra tithe money if they will commit to fasting and reading the shack for 40 days while reciting Message Bible Breathe Prayers.

Most excellent. That pretty much combined it all. It's dated yet relevant. It's perfect. It's spot on. Now you have been cleaning out some of your, you know, I can tell once you get going on something, you know, you don't stop.

So I can tell you're like purge the books and go to Kindle, get rid of your paper and all that stuff. And so you're purging papers but you found a cool one.

Yeah. There's going to be a bonfire pretty soon. No, just a bonfire. Yeah. So I was going through and I found this from my seminary days. So I wrote this in December of 2000. So it's like its 16th anniversary.

Okay.

Well, see, that's what we like to do. 16 years we started the show and it's still going strong.

If this was a child, it would be turning 16 today, you know.

Unbelievable. I have a child who's 17 and 15. So average. 16.

Yeah, it could fit right in the middle. Okay. So I'm writing this in and the name of the paper is Sin. It just ain't what it used to be.

And you said to me when you look at your own paper, this is pre-NOCO. Yeah. This is pre-NOCO-NOCO. I was NOCO before NOCO was NOCO. He was LOCO for the old NOCO. Really old. So tell us a little bit about this paper because we find here at No Compromise Radio that giving always increases when we talk about sin.

Oh, it's going to go through the roof when we do this one. Okay. So I get this flyer in the mail and this is how I describe it. One side had a full color picture of a young boy, probably about five or six years old, looking particularly uncooperative.

On a table before him was an immeasurable amount of peace. The biggest, I said, it's the most immeasurable amount of peace I have ever seen.

Now, if I would have been your professor, I would have docked you for that. Immeasurable amount of peace.

I mean... No, immeasurable mound of peace. Oh, mound. Immeasurable mound. Yeah. So it's just like... A mound that can't be measured. That's right. So you would not have docked me. You would have said, that's really what it is.

You would have said, wow, creative writing. Thank you. Thank you very much. And the caption said, do I have to? Sadly, the entire thrust of this advertisement was that going to church is good for you, just like eating peas would be good for the little boy, right?

So it's all about, you know, kind of a legalism thing, but ultimately what this is about is sin, that people don't want to be confronted by sin. That's why they don't want to go to church. So eventually I get down to this, talking about the Reverend Bob Shuler, TV audience back in the day.

Now, he's dead, right? I think Robert Shuler died. You know what? The Pope sent me an email saying he is in stone purgatory. So I guess he... You know, John Glenn died today. Did he really? Yeah, he did.

95 years old. Boy, this has been a rough year. Yeah. Okay, so I have a couple quotes about sin from Reverend Bob, as we used to call him in my house. And then you had to lower, you know, bow your head because Reverend Bob, you know.

Well, wasn't the Crystal Cathedral set up just like the burial crypt of Napoleon in Paris, where you, it would be on the bottom floor, and then you could only see it from the third floor. That means everybody had to bow to see him.

Isn't it set up that way? Okay. That's the way it is with Napoleon.

That's impressive. So, here's what he says about the 10 Commandments. Uh-oh. Okay. Can we call them the 10 words here? Because we're very Reformed. And this is from Believe in the God Who Believes in You.

By the way, when I first saw that book, they were handing out copies of that in the jail. And I just remember playing, because I had a Calvinist coworker, and we used to go through and just like, you know, name that heresy.

And we'd just open a page and see who could find the heresy first on the page.

Oh, that's good. That was almost like watching TBN back in the day, and how soon will it be before Benny ends this show?

But so you really learn to hone your skills when you're like, you know, okay, and read fast because you're like, okay, I don't want to lose this competition. And who could find the heresy fastest?

I think that's a new spinoff of the Evelyn Woodhead speed reading course. It's excellent, man. Okay. So, here we go.

Are you ready? About the Ten Commandments, he says, they are designed to put pride back into our life and keep shame out. What do you think of that? That's what the Ten Commandments are for.

Well, what my gut just said, N-O, that's what my gut just said. And actually, I know the Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. But when you said that, I was so shocked, I ended up turning to Leviticus.

I can't even find the Ten Commandments anymore in my own Bible. Well, that's fascinating, you know. So, Reverend Bob, he can take law, I guess, and make it gospel? Oh, yeah. That works.

It's good news. It's good news because, you know, they The law is good news. I mean, it really deprecates, it devalues the whole idea of sin so that sin becomes, well, I'll talk about what that becomes.

But I mean, the whole idea that the Ten Commandments is designed to put pride back in our life. I mean, when you read the Ten Commandments, is it possible to read the Ten Commandments and go, you know what?

When I think about it, I'm pretty proud of myself. I can see it now, Steve.

Can't you see with your mind's eye? You have Mount Sinai. Moses is at the top. All the people are at the bottom. They're wondering what's going to happen. God is speaking out of the fire to Moses. And Moses' self-esteem, as God speaks to him from the glory cloud, he's not wetting himself like we would have done.

He's feeling good about himself. His spirit's being buoyed. His morals are being molluxed. They're being what? I don't know. I'm just trying to think of something. But seriously, you got anything but self-esteem.

It's the exact opposite of what's going on with Moses at the top. What was Moses thinking?

He's thinking, this is the best day of my life. What about the people?

Finally Moses comes down and there's so much effulgent glory on Moses' face that the people get extra self-esteem when they look longer into his face. Petey. Well, it's so true. Reverend Bob goes on.

Tom. Reverend Bob, that's a new segment of the show.

Petey. Reverend Bob, he's talking about adultery. You know, thou shalt not commit adultery, right? And he says, God said to his children, this is his interpretation of thou shalt not commit adultery. I just don't want you to get hurt where the pain is the greatest, in broken hearts.

God's just trying to save you from having a broken heart. That's why he doesn't want you to commit adultery.

Tom. So it says now in Exodus, as I could finally find it, we've got, you know, the 10 words and it's on the man's side now and man's responsibility toward man. Don't commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor, you shall not covet your neighbor's house, nor shall you covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything else that is your neighbors.

Now here we go. Just all people have to do is read their Bible. Now I'll read from the ESV, Exodus 20 verse 18. Now when the people all saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled and they stood far off.

And they said to Moses, you speak to us and we will listen, but do not let God speak to us lest we die.

Because they were afraid of God. And I mean, our churches, with all due respect, our pastors, our preachers, should instill in the people of God that same fear, that he is in fact to be feared. This is a good thing.

The self-esteem of a person is the beginning of wisdom. Hmm.

Or it could be the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. How about this?

The people stood far off while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was. I mean, what's going through Moses' mind? Okay, he's a human, he's just like us, and all of a sudden he has to go into the thick cloud darkness.

And he just kept thinking, boy, what a good boy am I.

I think he was thinking more like this, one foot in front of the other. Moses, come on, you can do it. One foot in front of the other. I think I can.

I think I can. I better not. Seriously. I'm not trying to be, you know, really weird or gross or anything, but you can see when people are so afraid of something, they lose the ability to control themselves in a way in the sense that they just...

Petey. And even, you know, like you were saying, the people of Israel, I mean, they're just like, keep him away from us, right? I mean, you know, Moses, you be our intercessor because if we get too close, we're smoked.

You know, I mean, they get it. And people today, they don't want that. They don't want to be confronted by this holy God. But listen to this, just more along the same line. So then what is God's penalty for adultery?

So according to Reverend Schuller, it is the loss of self-esteem. This is a quote, the precious, priceless sense of self-esteem must be protected at all costs. No competing value, no alluring temptation is worth accepting if it risks this precious wellspring of emotional health and well-being.

Precious and few are the moments we can share. Oh, you're flat. You're flat, dude. You're flat. I know I can't sing. That's okay. You're flat. You're flat. How would you even know what flat was?

I have many years of watching American Idol. I know what flat and sharp are. See, I know more than to just say, dude, you're pitchy, you know, or dude, I love you, but singing just ain't for you. You know what I mean?

It ain't your bad. What about forte? Do you know what forte is? Sure. It's strength. Piano forte, a strong piano means it has forte keys on it. Get it? Forte. All right. But I mean, that's the deal with adultery, you know, is you lose your self-esteem and therefore you should avoid the temptation because, dude, you're going to lose your self-esteem.

You're going to feel bad about yourself.

Sin, Self-Esteem, and the Gospel of Therapeutic Moralism

Okay. Since it is called No Compromise Radio and we're trying to be provocative sometimes, Steve, I obviously am not going to put Tim Keller in the same category as Robert Shuler. I think Tim Keller's a believer and Robert Shuler, he didn't act like a believer or talk like one.

But when Tim Keller talks about sin and he often talks about sin kind of in a Kierkegaardian way, making good things ultimate and having, you know, if he's talking about homosexuality, doesn't he come across in the way that, you know, here, God's really wanting your best and if you do homosexual things, then that's not really God's ultimate.

God has this other ultimate plan. Are there similarities between this kind of thinking for the reasoning behind why we shouldn't sin or am I totally off?

Steve McLaughlin. Well, I don't think you're totally off. I mean, why shouldn't we sin? We shouldn't sin because we're supposed to be children of God. We're supposed to reflect him, right? And as believers, that ought to be our concern.

You don't willfully, you talk about your dad, you know, I mean, you wouldn't willfully just kind of spit in your dad's face. I mean, can you imagine that? Aaron Ross Powell. Wouldn't have gone well. Steve McLaughlin.

No. And I mean, I certainly wouldn't have done that to my dad either. And so, we feel like, though, that we can somehow, essentially, spit in the face of God and that he's going to be okay with it. And I just can't imagine anything more foreign to Scripture than this idea that, you know, maybe sin is all about us.

Sin is all about the impact it has on us. Well, there are certainly going to be ramifications for us, whether it's adultery or whatever, but that's not the primary concern. That's not the primary person with which you have to do business.

Aaron Ross Powell. See, I think that's the issue because, of course, God's going to say things like, you know, this isn't God's best for you because homosexuality isn't the best, and that's all true. But I think it's kind of what's not said is what I have a problem with when it comes to some of his speeches that I've watched on YouTube.

Steve McLaughlin. So, here's a, you know, I go from adultery to murder, right? Certainly there's no greater sin that someone can commit, you know, against their fellow man than murder, right? So, here's what he says about murder and about the death penalty and that kind of thing and abortion.

So, oh, abortion specifically. He says, the answer, or there are strong arguments on both sides of this issue, but no one will disagree that abortion is almost always a negative, unpleasant, and regrettable option.

We must ask, is this the most positive solution to the problem? That's his statement on abortion. We must ask, is this the most positive solution to the problem? Now, that's a funny way to talk about pregnancy, right?

A problem, a problem that must be solved. What about the baby?

Aaron Ross Powell. Steve, when mainline Protestant denominations, and even Roman Catholics, when they say, you know what? We think we need to revisit the question. Should we have women clergy? Should homosexuals be pastors and priests and clergy?

We need to reexamine the question. I always think it's over because once you start talking like that, I know where things like that end. It's inevitable because they're saying that for a reason. But similarly, when this is posed that way with this particular question, it's already over.

It's like, you know, when women say, well, this is, you know, this is my body. Really? That baby's your body? That baby's inside of your body?

But that baby's not your body. Aaron Ross Powell. I saw a meme that I thought described that well or resolved it well. It said, if it were really your body, you'd be the one dying. Steve McLaughlin. Yeah, I just saw that too.

I just thought of that.

Aaron Ross Powell. And I thought that's good. Steve McLaughlin. Uh-huh. And if it's a boy, baby inside of a woman, that boy has different genitalia than the mom does. And so that means that's part of your body too?

I mean, it's just so, it's, you know, the fool has said in his heart, there's no God. It's not an intellectual problem. It's a moral problem that confounds the intellect. And people, you know, okay, when I sin, I do stupid things and have stupid ways to try to get around doing the righteous thing.

And of course, unbelievers do it the same way. Aaron Ross Powell. Yes, they do. Steve McLaughlin. It's insanity.

Aaron Ross Powell. Yes, it is. And so I went on. I was just, basically, this paper is about the downgrade of sin in evangelicals.

Steve McLaughlin What kind of grade did you get on it? Aaron Ross Powell I only got a 98. Steve McLaughlin Well, what's all that red stuff there? I thought if there's like 15 red marks and you only get a 98.

Aaron Ross Powell. Actually, Dr. Cregan writes in pencil. And there are no red marks and you see, it gives, I think this should be published. No, that's not what he said.

Steve McLaughlin I was going to say that shorthand because there's only three words there. Should be published.

I think it should be published. Aaron Ross Powell. This is the best thing I've ever written. You know, you're just like, well, there's only three words there.

Steve McLaughlin. What did he actually say there?

Come on, Fesso. Aaron Ross Powell. Actually, I think what he said was I think he was trying to I think I got knocked off the two points because I used that postcard and I didn't reference it. My work's referenced.

So it's something about something that hasn't been published.

How do I Steve McLaughlin. Oh, how do you what do they call that?

Style guide? Aaron Ross Powell. This is something about the money. I don't know.

This is for money. Steve McLaughlin Go something have published this for the don't publish this for the money? Aaron Ross Powell No, it doesn't say. Filthy looker. Steve McLaughlin You know what? Trevor Cragen, he should have told me that before I wrote those six books.

Aaron Ross Powell Don't do it for the money.

Sin, Disability Language, and the Call to Repentance

Anyway, so I'm going on in this paper and I eventually get to Willow Creek and whatnot and I say this because they've got all these 12-step groups like Saddleback does. All these 12-step groups where people are helpless over their addictions and everything.

So listen to this MacArthur quote talking about 12-step groups and we're helpless over our problems, over our sin problems because they don't want to deal with sin. We just call them addictions. MacArthur says this.

These days, everything wrong with humanity is likely to be explained as an illness. What we used to call sin is more easily diagnosed as a whole array of disabilities. It's not a sin anymore. It's a disability.

It's not your fault. God made you that way. Now, that's not a quote from him, but that's basically you're looking for someone else to blame, anybody but you, right?

Steve McLaughlin. And if somebody has a disability, then instead of looking on them with, hey, you're guilty, it's almost the opposite. I know people who are disabled, they don't want to be looked on as people who have any kind of need, that they're lacking anything and I understand that.

But there's probably empathy for folks who if I see somebody in a wheelchair and I think, oh, you know what? I wish you'd be able to walk. So instead of making it guilt, sin, we make it something eliciting sympathy or a desire to help or

Trevor Burrus. What if you've ever dealt with somebody and I'm sure you have, but I mean for our listeners, if you've ever dealt with somebody who's, you know, drunk or they're, you know, I'll just say addicted to drugs, they have a drug habit, whatever, you do feel compassion for those people.

But compassion for them needs to stop at some point and well, not stop, but it needs to come to this point. You need to be compassionate enough to tell them that they're in sin and they need to repent.

They need Christ Jesus as their Savior, as their mediator, as they need his righteousness. They need him to die for their sins and they need him to be raised from the dead. This is the only hope they have, not some 12-step meeting, not some group.

Mike Abendroth, Steve Cooley.

I love Trevor Cragen. I loved your paper, but I would have given you 96. 96, really?

That's terrible. I would have been smoked.

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God's Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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