Living Out Does it Again

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:13

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. This is a short little episode.

00:19

We're gonna talk a little bit about Living Out. Living Out's supposed to be an evangelical organization.

00:25

They have a church audit that is supposed to help make your church safe, welcoming for LGBTQ plus folks.

00:34

Tim Keller has worked with them. Sal Albury worked with them. I think he was one of the founders. There's been controversy with Living Out over the years.

00:43

And each time it seems like Living Out, they just, they give little hints of who they actually are.

00:50

Like Tom Buck had done this whole thing with them years ago. I wanna say two years ago now, where he basically did some, he had a stealth operation, this little sting operation where I guess someone had posed, if my memory serves me correctly, as an underage male and was trying to kind of get rid of same -sex attraction.

01:15

And he was given advice like to go to gay bars and things like that in a non -sexual way, have friends, but go to the gay bar to make friends.

01:25

Weird stuff like that. Living Out's done weird stuff like that. Now, this is just another example in my mind of kind of like showing their true colors again.

01:34

I think I pointed out a month ago, they had rebranded as gay and Christian, and now they retweeted something.

01:41

But the thing they retweeted, you have to understand this whole controversy in the North. Let's see if I get this right.

01:49

I don't wanna, there's all sorts of different denominations. I wanna pronounce this correctly. Yes, the Anglican Church in North America. That's what it is.

01:55

Not the Episcopalians, the Anglican Church in North America. So you have to understand this whole controversy that is existing and has existed since,

02:02

I guess, January in the Anglican Church in North America to understand what Living Out, how

02:08

Living Out is kind of showing its true colors again in a retweet that they made. So I'm gonna take you through what's going on in the

02:15

Anglican Church in North America. They put out a statement on sexuality and identity, a pastoral statement from the

02:21

College of Bishops. And it's pretty long. Instead of just, I don't know, maybe

02:26

I'm too simple. Scripture says homosexuality is wrong, mortify it. But it's just a very long statement about how, well,

02:36

I'll read you this excerpt here. The bishops of the Anglican Church in North America offer this pastoral statement to the church after prayer, study, careful listening to disparate voices.

02:46

That's very important, I guess. Careful, that careful listening to disparate voices right now.

02:51

It's not the Bible. Anyway, does the standpoint of epistemology come in here?

02:57

It sounds like it might be. Anyway, and the collaborative process involving contributions from across the province, we understand that our youth and adults need language to share about their experience.

03:10

Hmm, so that's, is the Bible sufficient? Does the Bible not give us language to share about our sins?

03:20

They don't even call it sin, it's about their experience. So what are they getting at here? Anyway, as reflected in this statement, we commend the usage of Christians who experience same -sex attraction.

03:30

And this is the brunt of it. Instead of using gay Christian or same -sex attracted Christian or something, the word order is important to them,

03:37

Christians who experience same -sex attraction. I don't know,

03:43

Christians who just really wanna commit adultery, Christians who just wanna murder someone, Christians who just wanna disobey their parent.

03:50

I mean, pick your sin. Would you have a statement that, and this is a long one, by the way, it just concludes with this, about any other sin?

03:58

No, you probably wouldn't. The Bible's pretty clear and you have biblical language, but it's because of the cultural moment we're in and because these are accepted, and not only accepted, but celebrated sins, that now churches have to rethink all of a sudden all of these things.

04:13

And so they're rethinking this. And so, and I will say, you know, some of the things in there are not altogether bad.

04:21

It's just their starting point isn't great. You know, if you're a Christian who experiences some of these things, it's not part of your identity as a

04:30

Christian, and all Christians experience inclinations towards certain sins at certain times.

04:36

So, but to, why all the nuance, kind of hand -wringing and why this need all of a sudden to go, you know, to have this extra biblical language and stuff, that's really, in my opinion, that's really where more of the issue is.

04:53

But I digress to show you kind of where this, how this controversy has evolved.

04:59

So the Church of Nigeria, Anglican Communion, responded. And I'm not gonna read you their whole response, but ultimately, here's a few just interesting things they say.

05:12

These decisions by the ACNA, Anglican Church in North America, is tantamount to a subtle capitulation to recognize and promote same -sex attraction, or relation, sorry, among its members.

05:24

Exactly the same route of argument adopted by the Episcopal Church. And so they're saying that, you know, basically they see a

05:31

Trojan horse here. A gay is a gay. They cannot be rightly described otherwise.

05:37

In the same vein, we cannot describe people as a Christian murderer, Christian adulterer, and Christian terrorist. So they're calling it out.

05:43

They're saying, you can change the word order all you want. Instead of, you know, a Christian, a gay Christian, instead of, you know, a

05:49

Christian who experienced same -sex attraction. He's saying, okay, change the word order. Does it still make sense to say I'm a Christian murderer, or a

05:55

Christian terrorist, or a Christian? No. So whatever sin you wanna put in there, you could certainly put in there.

06:01

But they say that, neither should we have gay Christian or gay Anglican. Without holiness, no man can see

06:07

God. And they say that this is gonna be taken advantage of. This is, they're being used by the

06:14

LGBTQ plus lobby, et cetera. That's their reaction from the

06:19

Church of Nigeria. So Andrew Goddard, if I'm pronouncing that right, or Goddard, who is a assistant minister at the

06:28

St. James, the Les Pimlico Tutoring Christian Ethics at Westminster Theological Center, I guess, and the adjunct assistant professor of Anglican Studies at Fuller Theological Seminary.

06:42

I guess that's, traditionally, Fuller has been an evangelical seminary. Not anymore, but here's a professor from Fuller, Andrew Goddard, and this is what he says.

06:52

The message that comes across is that the church objects, and I should preface this. He's reacting to what, not what the

06:59

Nigerians said. In this section, he's reacting to what the Anglicans in North America said.

07:05

This message that comes across is that the church objects to them describing themselves as gay Christians. This thing gives fuel to those, whether traditional

07:12

Christians or non -Christians who identify as LGBT, who argue you cannot be gay and a Christian. It is also likely to lead to an increase in the sense of shame and being second -class or worse, simply because of the pattern of one's attractions.

07:23

It looks horribly like an attempt, effectively, to silence the voices of anyone who experiences same -sex attraction, and who wishes to speak in their own way about their own experience.

07:32

It's pretty postmodern, and God speaks about our experiences, by the way, in his word, but an own understanding of who they are in Christ and who wishes to try to help those without that experience to understand them better.

07:45

So he's taking issue with, he's saying the statement by the Anglicans in North America, that wasn't a good statement, because they're trying to say you shouldn't use the term gay

07:54

Christian, et cetera. That's just, it's wrong. Well, then, he reacts also to what the

08:01

Nigerians said, and basically, this is what he says. Quote, the word homophobic is often misused to label traditional understandings, and I normally, therefore, avoid it, but it is, sadly, the only possible word that can be used in the face of such unacceptable language.

08:18

And so, someone named Dr. Ian Paul had put this out there,

08:24

I guess, had put out this statement, this response by Andrew Goddard, and basically saying, how does our language reflect the gospel, you know?

08:33

And then, Wesley Hill, I know it's getting confusing with all these names, Wesley Hill, though, who, this is who

08:40

Living Out retweeted, put out this quote. Here's the significant part. Living Out retweets

08:46

Wesley Hill. They retweet the quote I just read for you about the Nigerian letter.

08:52

And this raises some things, and this is why I wanted to just briefly talk about it with you all.

08:59

Living Out is placing themselves squarely against what the Nigerian church has said, the statement from the

09:07

Nigerian church about what the Anglicans in North America are doing. And so, they're against that, and they're willing to put their stamp of approval on, somehow, the idea that that's homophobic, and that that's wrong.

09:20

So, they're using these sociological, the sociological word, homophobic, and it's one of the problems.

09:25

We're not using any biblical language in any of this. They're using the sociological term. And they're saying it's unacceptable language.

09:36

And that puts them in the category of at least being against a

09:43

Nigerian group of Christians. Now, this is the interesting thing.

09:51

This whole thing to me, the Methodists have this, the Anglicans are having this. Those in Africa are more conservative on this issue than those in the

10:00

United States or in the Western world, Europe, et cetera. And it's, for some reason, it's not colonialism.

10:11

It's not racism against people in Africa who have these beliefs, to impose these beliefs.

10:17

Or if they critique it, it's not racist to oppose them and say that their language is unacceptable, et cetera.

10:22

Even though they're black, they're in Africa, and they would be, you'd think on the intersectional scale, they would be somewhere lower.

10:34

They're oppressed, they're colonized. But not so for this movement.

10:42

And it points out one of the issues with the social justice movement, why it's inherently confusing and it's inherently contradictory.

10:50

Because the Christians in Nigeria lose their status, their victim status, if they ever had it, once they want to oppose the

10:58

LGBTQ, et cetera, lobby. And I think their statement kind of makes sense.

11:03

They're kind of like, why try to walk this tightrope?

11:08

Just use the biblical language. Use what the Bible says. The Bible's given us instructions on this. Homosexuality is wrong.

11:14

We don't use it as a descriptor. And if you're a Christian, don't call, I would say, don't even call yourself that, a

11:20

Christian who experienced same -sex attraction. You may be a Christian who does sometimes experience same -sex attraction, but why use that?

11:28

Why even say, I'm a Christian. That's it, you're a Christian. You struggle with sin like other Christians, but that's not your identity in Christ.

11:36

You're supposed to be focusing on your identity, who you are, and you're not that anymore. Such were some of you. So you fight it, you mortify it.

11:44

But this struggle to somehow try to come up with this way to appease the world or try to recognize and give language for people to understand these experiences without calling them sin and so forth, it's just getting outside of what the

11:59

Bible teaches on this subject. And I think the Nigerian Christians, they're onto something with this, but then they're called these nasty names.

12:07

They're called homophobic, called unacceptable. And somehow this is acceptable to living out, and this is acceptable to at least one professor at Fuller Theological Seminary.

12:19

And think about it if it was another issue, not homosexuality, but something else. I'm trying to think of one now, and I'm having a hard time, but we're against the

12:30

Nigerian church for something else. We don't like the way that, I don't know, they dance around on Sunday morning during the service, and it's just not proper.

12:40

It's unacceptable or something. I mean, you'd be a racist in two seconds, but not on this issue. On this issue, it trumps racism.

12:49

And that's why I think it's not going to be, I think I could be wrong, but I think the next issue isn't gonna be

12:54

Black Lives Matter. I think the wheel's gonna turn, and it's going to be the transgender and more of the

13:00

LGBTQ plus stuff. And I don't see how the church is gonna survive it if these are the kinds of controversies.

13:07

You have to be solid and firm and stand by biblical language and not start experimenting with what can you do to sort of still be orthodox, but still affirm.

13:16

You're gonna be stretched so tight, you're just not gonna be able to survive. So I just wanted you to be aware of that.

13:21

I thought it was an interesting example and so hopefully that helps.