SNATCH THEM FROM THE FLAMES – DISCERNMENT SEMINAR, Session 1, “False Teachers” by Andrew Rappaport

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Introduction to the Discernment Seminar and the Book of Jude

Welcome to the Wrap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rapoport, and on this episode, you're going to get a little bit of a taste of our Snatch Them From the Flames Discernment Conference. This is from Beulah Baptist Church down there in Winter Garden, Florida in the Orlando area.

This first session that we had is one of my sessions. We're going to play throughout the year. The other sessions, next week we plan to play Justin Peter's session, but the first session that I had is the one that we're going to play for you today.

This will cover a very important topic of discernment. On this episode, we're going to deal with the Book of Job. We're actually going to go through the entire Book of Job, yes, the entire book in one hour.

And we're going to give you 28 different ways in the Book of Job to identify false teachers. So that's what's coming your way right now on the Wrap Report.

Welcome to the Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Contending for the Faith and Judging with Righteous Judgment

Well, good evening. So I'm up first because I'm supposed to make sure you guys are all awake, okay? I can tell you right now, you're not going to fall asleep. We do have a lot of material to go over. I've given you a hint, though.

All of my notes are actually in your little handout. So I only have a 28-point outline. We're going to go through the entire Book of Jude. Now, it only took me four months in church to preach this. Don't worry.

You got time. Okay. Maybe not. I'll go quick. I am born and raised in New Jersey. We learn how to talk very fast up there. I hope that's okay with all you guys. If not, because, I mean, this is Florida.

You're all New York and New Jersey, you know, transplants, correct? No. Well, I did live in Florida for a short period of time, kind of. My parents moved down to Sarasota area, if you guys know that area south of Tampa.

I technically had a driver's license from Florida. I just never really lived here. I was in college. But we want to go over, what we're trying to do in this seminar is, this is to give discernment. And so this is not typically the way we end up starting.

We've kind of changed some things around. We usually start with dealing with what Justin's going to deal with next hour on sufficiency of scripture. We then deal with on how to interpret scripture. And then we spend two sessions.

One session I'm going to do tonight. And then session Justin will do tomorrow. That's going to be on discerning false teachers. That's tomorrow. Identifying false teachers is tonight. Tomorrow, you're also going to get from Dr. Silvestro.

He's known as Anthony. But we call him Dr. Silvestro because, for some reason, some pastors, I don't know why, can't figure out the difference between Andrew and Anthony. No one here, I'm sure, has ever done that.

So Dr. Silvestro tomorrow is going to deal with a topic that's very important, especially for the church. It's a topic maybe some of you have started to hear of, called social justice. Or maybe you've heard of critical racism theory.

They call it critical race theory. But I call it properly. But what you'll end up seeing is that that's actually an issue for the church. The rest of culture is just catching on to what the church has been dealing with for several years now.

So what we're going to deal with in this session really quickly is to go through the entire book of Jude. The book of Jude gives us an overview. Actually, I'm going to give you 28 different ways of identifying false teachers.

There's a lot of false teachers out there. The number continues to grow. This is just a small picture of just some of them. Maybe there's some faces you see in there and you recognize. But some of them we're going to mention by name.

So what you end up seeing is that there is a growing number of false teachers. And the problem is not enough people in churches know how to identify false teachers. The problem is that most people don't realize that false teachers are very likable people.

They wouldn't be followed if they're not. Okay? So they're very charismatic people. They're people that want to follow. They say things that are just like, man, that's great the way that person said it.

And yet the reality is that we have to realize that these people are teaching false doctrines at times. But there are identifiers. And that's what Jude gives us. Jude is first, if we look, we're going to end up reading through the book of Jude.

If you have your Bibles open, we're going to end up reading through the entire book. Let me start with Jude chapter 1. And I'm going to read down to verse 3 here. Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, to those who are called beloved in God, the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ.

May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you, to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

See, he wanted to write to them about the common salvation that we share. Those of us in Christ, maybe you've had this experience where you travel. I have the privilege of traveling the world. And it doesn't matter where I go.

When I meet another person that is a born again believer in Jesus Christ, who's been converted from darkness to light. And we get together, there is a kindred spirit that we can enjoy. Have you experienced that?

And that's what Jude wanted. Jude wanted to talk about that. That's so refreshing, isn't it? We get to talk about that kindred spirit we have because of what Christ has done for us. But he couldn't. Instead, he adds the right to them and warn them to contend for the faith.

Because that is important. And it's something that unfortunately in our culture, in our day and age, when you have the nerve to do what we're going to do this weekend, people will and maybe some of you will want to say, well, that's not loving.

That's not nice. We shouldn't name people. We shouldn't say that someone's wrong. Well, God did it in the Bible over and over again. Anyone think highly of Cain? Anyone named their kids Cain? Why not?

Because the Bible says something about Cain and no one wants to like remember that. Right? God had no problem naming names. The thing is, when we name names, it has to be based on God's word. Okay? There's this false teaching that says that thou shalt not judge because no one ever keeps reading.

Actually, here's a little hint for you. In John 7 24, it commands us to judge. And that's Jesus speaking. That's the red letters. Okay, actually, I think the whole Bible is red letter, but that's just me.

Um, but Jesus commanded us to judge. The issue is not should we judge. It's that we should judge with a righteous judgment. And that's the issue. And so what we want to do is give what God's word says about how we should judge.

Signs of False Teachers in Jude 4-6

How do we identify a false teacher? Well, here's some of the things. Let's look at the first thing that we have. One of the things that we see is they, it says in verse four here, that they creep into the church unnoticed.

They do it stealthily. You know, this may be something you never thought of, but did you ever realize that nobody wakes up in the morning and says, I think I want to be a heretic today. I'm going to be a false teacher.

Nobody does that. False teachers come about that gradually. Now, I think some of it, I'll be honest with you. I think some of where we see it is in, I hope there's no like no one that works for Christian publishers, but in Christian publishing is where I think a lot of the false teachings coming from.

Because it sells. False teaching sells. The truth doesn't. You want proof that false teaching sells? Just go and see how many people will go and watch or go to see, you know, Joelstein. And then look in your solid churches and you go, what's going on here?

Okay. The reality is, is false teaching sells. And a lot of the publishers, they just want to sell. And what you see is people that start to get a platform, what ends up happening? You know, just curve a little off here.

That's a little harder, too hard to say. I know this as an author. There's a reason I self-publish. Because the publishers want to soften everything and change everything. And I want to say things the way that I want to say them.

And if it's hard for people, well, okay, maybe it's hard for people. The reality is that publishers always want to broaden it. So it's acceptable to everybody. And so you see people that they creep in unawares.

They don't overcome. They don't start saying, I'm looking to be a false teacher. What they end up doing is they want to, usually, there are people who say they want to speak the truth. But over time, either through relationships they have, or through publishing, or trying to build a platform, they start to just go a little off the edge here, off the edge there.

People that names you would know. Beth Moore, she used to be a conservative. Now she's hanging out with people that are word of faith. Maybe you know Andy Stanley, who had a name that was known. His father's, you know, Charles Stanley, a well-known preacher.

Yet now he denies the word of God. Francis Chan, a master's seminary graduate from John MacArthur Seminary. He now promotes unity with the Roman Catholic Church. How do these people get there? And the reality is they do it stealthily and slowly.

And because people knew what they used to teach, we trust them. And we don't look at what they're teaching today. And that's the thing that ends up happening. But here's the thing to remember. None of these false teachers that you may think of, none of them caught God by surprise.

God knew that they would be a false teacher one day. These false teachers were those that Jude will say is long ago designated for condemnation. That's a definite article in the Greek there. This is the designation for the condemnation.

They creep in unaware. A second thing that we see here is that they're ungodly. This is, you'll see it in both verse 4 and verse 15. I'll read verse 4. For certain people who have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were designated for the condemnation.

Ungodly people. I'll stop there because we're going to get to the rest of that. These ungodly people, they do not seek the things of God. They're selfish. They seek to please self. You can see this. You see this not in the fact, you know, you see some of these guys that drive the nice cars.

That's okay to drive a nice car. You know, Justin Peters and I were in Philippines. There was a preacher, word of faith preacher out there. And there's this picture that he has with two Lamborghinis. Now, if you know anything about the Philippines, this is where people, you know, people are not making anywhere near what we make.

Okay, the cost of living is far less. And here's a guy promoting it. He's got two Lamborghinis. And he's saying how, you know, that it's good to have money. You know, is there anything wrong with owning a Lamborghini?

Well, okay, I don't know. Maybe it was a gift. I mean, you know, look, you know, you can have people that, there are people who, you know, have expensive cars that could be for investments. But that wasn't what this guy's doing with it, right?

He's promoting, he likes his own, we're gonna, I'm gonna give you a quote from him later. But he likes what money could give him. He likes what can please himself. And you see this with a lot of these guys.

Many of these false teachers, what they do is because they're ungodly, they know that they don't want that to be out there. So what do they do? They keep an inside circle of people. And you can't get to those people.

That's why it's always so funny when you criticize some of these people. They'll say, well, have you gone to them personally? You can't. It was really funny because Justin and I kind of know how these things work.

So when we went to the Philippines, we knew we were gonna be naming some Filipino pastors that are out there, if you can call them pastors. And so what we did was we actually invited them all to get together before our event so that we can meet with them and tell them what we were about to say about them.

None of them wanted to meet with us. The irony is when their congregants said, well, have you gone to them personally? We said, we tried. They didn't wanna meet. But what you end up seeing is that they do not generally work with or meet with or interact with the congregation as a whole.

They limit themselves to a few. Why? Because they're gonna have an ungodly lifestyle. Number three. Now, and I realize you're not gonna remember all 28 points. That's why we gave it to you in your notes there, okay?

They pervert the grace of God into sensuality. Look at the rest of verse four there. There are ungodly people who pervert the grace of God into sensuality. Now, what you have here is the sensuality is an extreme form of immorality.

That's what the idea of it in the Greek. There's two major issues with false teachers that you end up seeing. One is sensuality and one is authority. They love to control. The other thing that you'll often see is that you see sexual behavior, sexually deviant behavior with them.

I once had a couple that came to me and they were looking to get married. And in their dating, they asked this question. How far can we go before we go too far? And I said, you already did in asking that question.

You see, this is what false teachers want to do though. They want to see how far can we get to the line. But once they become desensitized to one line, guess what? They move the line, okay? And so they end up pushing the limits of sensuality.

Unfortunately, let me give you an example of one like this. If you're not aware, we could talk about this afterwards. But one example of this that's come out recently is the name Ravi Zacharias. If you know anything about what has come out about him, this is a man who started off seemingly solid, but what's happened?

We end up seeing that he was perverted, perverted the grace of God, turning to women and saying, oh, let me talk about your spirituality and then use that to get you into his sexuality issues. And so you end up seeing that they do that.

Another one, number four. And I did tell you we were going to go through this quickly. And I told you I speak quickly. So they deny Jesus Christ. You see this at the ending of verse four. And deny our only master and Lord Jesus Christ.

They deny God. Now you say, well, wait a minute, but they're standing up there preaching God. They use God. They'll use even his word. But the idea that you have here for deny is to disown or disregard.

And that's what they do. They have a disregard for God. You see this in their teachings and their practices, that they could teach something that's completely opposite to this very word. And they have no fear.

They give the Bible and God's word lip service. Even Joelstein starts every one of his services holding up the word of God. That's about the only time the word of God is mentioned. But see, they give it lip service and then try to twist God's word to deny the God they claim they speak for.

Let me give you an example of that. This from Todd White.

Away from the Bible. See, if Jesus didn't do what he did as a man, there's nothing for us to model. There's no model for us. And then we're always left with what was Jesus. No, Jesus was tempted at all points.

He was tempted at points that none of us have ever been tempted at. He was tempted at all points for everyone in every area of this world. And he sinned not. He had no license to his flesh. To miraculous, if you don't understand this, then you can't pray for the sick.

Why? Because that was Jesus. I'm not Jesus. No, Jesus never healed the sick as God. Jesus healed the sick as a man in perfect relationship with God. Jesus was here. The Holy Spirit comes down upon Jesus, rested upon him, and remained.

And when Jesus healed the sick, it was God through Jesus. Jesus said it several times. He said, you know, if you don't believe me in the things that I say, at least believe me through the works that I do towards the Father who dwells in me that does the works.

See all that twisting he does. It makes it sound really good, doesn't he? Except what did he do? He said God did not do the healing. A man did. And then what does he do? He uses that to say that, oh, men like him could do this too.

Yeah, they could do a little trick that maybe Justin will show you later. You know, I think tomorrow where he does a little trick with, oh, look, I can extend your foot a little. Right? The reality is, is that what you have is he's denying the very, he says, oh, you'll see people do this.

They say I'm denying that Jesus is God. Then he goes on to do exactly that. Right? One of the things you see with false teachers is they're going to say, I don't say this. And then they go on to say exactly what they say they don't say.

It's amazing. You know, it's really kind of funny. You do this with politicians, right? You know, I won't cut taxes. What's the first thing they're going to do? You know, they're going to, I won't raise taxes.

What's the first thing you're going to do? Raise taxes, right? So, so what you see is that here you end up seeing that they deny Christ as God. They deny God. They have a disregard for him. What is his emphasis that you heard?

It's on the man. What did he end up doing? Lifting up man and doing what? Lowering God. Okay, number five. They do not believe God is capable of doing what he promised. Verse five. Now I want to remind you that although I once, that you once fully knew it, that Jesus who saved a people out of land of Egypt afterward destroyed those who do not believe.

So what you have here is, this is going back and some of you may not be so familiar with the Old Testament. You know, it's that book that we kind of dust off once in a while, you know. But in the Old Testament, well, who is it that saved Egypt?

Help me out. Who is it? Well, according to this passage, it's Jesus, right? In the Old Testament, who does it say? It's God, right? So when Israel was told who saved them, it was God who saved them. But it's interesting.

Jude says we all knew it was Jesus. Common knowledge. He says that Jesus did it. Those who don't believe, that didn't believe, were the ones that were destroyed. Is what he's saying here in verse five.

These Jewish people that didn't believe this. What you end up seeing is that they do not believe God's capable of doing what he promised to do. God said that, you know, he was going to come one day. What did the Jewish leaders at the time when Jesus walked on the earth do?

They killed him. They didn't believe God would really bring a Messiah. Jesus said he's coming back again. Sometimes I wonder how many churches really believe that. Because a lot of churches aren't living like he's coming back anytime soon.

Right? But there's people that what you see with these with these false teachers is they actually believe they're the ones. And you heard this with what we just saw in that video clip with Todd White.

They're the ones that are needed to do something. God can't do it without us. This is the way false teachers end up speaking. They seek their own position of authority in verse six. Now, now what you end up having here, it says, and the angels who did not stay in their own, in their own position of authority, but left the proper dwelling.

He is kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day. So these are angels that didn't stay in the position that they were supposed to have. And instead tried to get a position they shouldn't have.

It's interesting historically what many people think this is a reference to. And this may stir some fun controversy. Well, I know it will between Dr. Silvestro and I. At least we know that controversy will be there.

But if you go back to Genesis chapter six and the Nephilim, the many people, I would be one, that would hold to the position that somehow God allowed angels, we'd call them demons, to come to earth and somehow have relations with women.

Can we understand that? No, but that's what I think this is speaking of. There's several reasons I'm not going to get into here why I believe to that. But if that is the case, the angels didn't want to hold to the authority that they had.

They wanted to be in a realm of authority they did not have. That's the example that he uses. Now, why would I hold to that? Well, because Jude is using this and saying that it's common knowledge. And that is the Jewish tradition of what had happened.

And so this was common knowledge among the Jewish people. And so I think that what you have here is he's arguing for the fact that what false teachers do is they don't like the authority that they have.

They want authority that's not their own. What kind of authority? Well, one of the ways you see the most obvious authority that they want is control over other people's lives. I have seen men who will sit there and say they as a saying that because they're a pastor or a prophet or whatever apostle, whatever title they want to give themselves.

And they say they have the right to say who can marry within a church. No one man who would claim he's the only one that could tell you which job to choose. That's an authority he doesn't have. One man who he would he would do is he would talk with the wives about the intimacy within their marriage and explain what the wives should do.

That's not his role. That's overstepping his authority. That's a sign of a false teacher. False teachers like to be in an authority position that they don't have a right to. Usually ends up leading to number seven.

Sexual Immorality, Authority, and the Way of Cain

They indulge in sexual immorality. You're going to see this one come up a couple of times. You've already seen this now at least twice, right? Seems to be a common thing. But in verse seven, you end up seeing it goes just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which likewise indulge in sexual immorality and perverse unnatural desires serve as an example of undergoing punishment of hellfire.

So you see two things here. One is they indulge in sexual immorality. Now Sodom and Gomorrah are used as the example. Sodom and Gomorrah is the classic example of basically a city given over to homosexuality.

And quite frankly, Sodom and Gomorrah was judged for that by God. I think America owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. The reality is what you end up seeing with these false teachers is they give themselves over to their sexual immorality so much that they go into all kinds of different deviant behaviors such that it's compared to what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which is deserving of an eternal condemnation.

That's not me saying it. That's what Jude wrote. So don't blame me. The term that refers here that's used for homosexuality, it's an idea of a sexual immorality but it speaks specifically of homosexuality.

And so it's not out of character to use it that way in this text and with the connection of Sodom and Gomorrah, it's fitting. You end up seeing that there is, unfortunately, when you find out when these things are revealed, if they are, and I think there's going to be a lot more we're going to hear about on Judgment Day with some of these false teachers that we're going to see a lot more deviant behavior than we ever knew of.

But when we see some of the things, if you've read the report that came out with Ravi Zacharias, it's just devastating to read what he did to people. And the reality is that didn't come in overnight but it was the fact that, and the way someone like that is allowed to do that is because he's got no accountability.

Okay? Because they overstepped their authority, they don't have accountability. The other one that he mentions here is they pursue an unnatural desire. This is, again, tied to the issue of homosexuality.

Let me give you a well-known, if you can say preacher, on discussing this issue of homosexuality. TJ Jakes. A question coming in from a black person. He said, do you think, also, the LGBT community.

And the black church can coexist? Absolutely. Let me push that question because that's sort of the obvious answer. The church ain't turning everybody away. How should the black church and the LGBT community coexist?

I think it's going to be about going from church to church. Every church has a different opinion on it. To speak the church,.

The black church, or our church, or any kind of church you want to call it, are all the same is totally, totally not true. And all gay people are not the same. The types of relationships that are afforded are based on the types of people in each individual case.

LGBT teams are like some sorts of how to find a household of worship that reflects what your views are and what you believe like anybody else. And the church should have the right to have its own convictions and values.

If you don't like those convictions and values, and you totally disagree with it, don't try to change my house. Move into your own. And establish that sort of thing. And find somebody who gets what you get about faith.

And trust me, I've talked to a lot of LGBT. They are not all the same.

Officially, they're all the same. They're all persons of equality. But how do we... So how do we get him involved in this thing? He's evolved and evolving.

Evolved and evolving. So he's evolved and he's evolving. How's he evolving? He's saying that the people that practice homosexuality, don't change your behavior. Find a church that fits what you already believe.

How about we correct that? Seriously, think about this. Would you say this with a murderer? Go find a church where everyone murders. Where murdering is okay. How about adultery? Just go to a church where everyone commits adultery.

No, we would say we need to correct those. We'd call those people to repent. What does he do? Oh, go find a church that agrees with you. Just don't try to change my house. I see another thing. And Justin's going to speak on this next hour.

So fortunately, I don't have to take a whole lot of time on this. But I'll give you some. They rely on their dreams. What they end up doing is they put their dreams as a higher authority than this God's very word.

They look at their dreams and what you end up seeing is they all have a dream. It's amazing. Everybody has dreams and visions from God and none of them seem to agree. It's an amazing thing. We have 66 books, over 1 ,500 years of writing, over 40 authors, all different ways and walks of life.

No contradictions. Two people can't have the same dream and a vision. They can't even agree. In fact, we have some people that can't even agree with their own dream and vision. Let's look at one example.

Oh, I did it. Beth Moore. I'm in trouble. All right. Beth Moore, she had a dream of Curtis Chapman's daughter's... Curtis Chapman's daughter died. Mary died. And there was... So this is Beth Moore talking about a dream.

Okay, first off, do you see she loves Jesus Christ for what? For the dream. That's what she loves Jesus Christ for. Okay, I had to stop it here for a reason. I just can't help myself. So I... You may not be aware of what's called micro expressions.

There's things we do when we lie. We don't even know we do it. We don't may not know. You may not be able to pick up on micro expressions. You don't know why someone's lying, but you can tell they're lying.

Here's a little thing for you. You guys are all going to now do this. When someone's recalling a story and an actual event that happened, they have a tendency to look up and to the right. Sorry, up and to the left.

Sorry. They look up and to the left to recall a story. When you're making up a story, you have a tendency to look up and to the right. Anyone want to take a guess which way she's looking? Yeah, okay. So right off the bat, I know she's making up a story.

It didn't actually happen. All right, let's listen what she says. Let that sit in, sink in for a bit. So you're just okay with God's word. That's not enough for her. No, she wants a dream. She's wanting a dream.

Notice how she belittles people who want to just hold to God's word. This is a false teacher. Someone that's going to, they're going to focus more on a dream and the dream is going to then do what? They're going to use a dream to interpret this book.

What becomes a higher authority when you do that? Yourself, your dream. Notice how she just, she makes more preeminent her dream over God's word. But she goes on. All right, didn't play. Let's see if I can make it play.

He gets on. He gave her the dream. No, he's, she's saying you get Beth more of the dream, not Mary Beth. She can't even get her. She can't even keep her own dream straight. Now, here's one you just can't.

You can't help because this was something we've all kind of lived through now. This is March of last year. March of last year. Okay, this is 2020. This is when COVID just was starting. You guys have all heard about COVID, right?

Okay, just checking. I figured maybe some of you didn't know about this thing called COVID. But because you,.

We really shouldn't know anything about it because here was a dream from Kenneth Copeland. He's got the exact time. The word of the Lord came to me. So I jumped up and got my notepad and wrote it down.

924. This disease called CODV -19 will be over much sooner than you think. People all over this country praying have overwhelmed it. Give me all the glory, said the spirit of grace. People will come to know me through it.

I'm still Lord over this nation. I'm on the throne and faith in me changes things.

Any of you still wondering what that COVID thing is? I mean, this is when it just started, right? How's that for a dream? And he even wrote it down. That should be scripture, right? This is what you see with false teachers.

They have dreams. They also defile the flesh in verse 8. They seek to satisfy fleshly desires. Usually the language that we have here in the Greek, it refers to sexual sins. It's the third time this has come up.

It's something that you see over and over again with false teachers. You also see number 11, they reject authority. They reject God's word ultimately as an authority. They use God's word to defile God's word.

They look at scripture. They don't actually like the scripture because it judges what they do. So what do they do? They look for scripture to try to make it say something it doesn't say, something they want it to say, but it doesn't say.

That's the reason they look to their dreams rather than the word of God because the dreams that they make up can always fit what they want to be said. And then they just find ways of saying, well, let me take a word over here and I'll flip over there.

Oh, there's another word. And here's another word. And they just jump all over the Bible and try to make it say something it doesn't. We're not going to have time this weekend to do basically our one hour hermeneutics, how to interpret the Bible.

But if we're ever back down this way, we have our Bible interpretation made easy seminar teaching people how to interpret God's word because it is so important. You don't interpret by jumping all over the Bible.

You know how you interpret what we're doing right now, going verse by verse by verse by verse. This may shock some of you, but your chapter breaks and verse numbers are not inspired. They didn't come for about 700, 800 years.

Okay. It wasn't meant to be read one verse at a time. It was meant to be read an entire book at a time. All right. But what you end up seeing is these people, they reject authority. They don't like anybody telling them what to do.

It's one of the things you're always going to see with a false teacher. I mean, you'll see they'll snap at somebody. And we're going to give you an example in a little bit. They will snap at somebody that corrects them.

They will go from nice and peaceful, all smiles, to vicious in split seconds. It's amazing. But false teachers do not like when people correct them. It's always funny because they have no problem calling people that correct them out publicly.

But they always say that what the people did was not come to them privately. I always find that amazing. Whenever I get asked the question, well, have you gone to so-and-so privately before you said something publicly?