How to Begin with Puritans: An Interview with Dr. Stephen Yuille

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Welcome to the Whole Council Podcast. I'm Jon Snyder and with us this week we have a special guest,

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Dr. Stephen Yule. You may not be familiar with Dr. Yule's name. You might have heard him preach at some conferences recently.

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He's always a favorite. And you may have seen some of the books that he has recently written or edited.

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But we're really glad to have Dr. Yule with us today. He's been a very encouraging bright spot in the

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Puritan, theologian, historian area of evangelicalism.

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And so we're going to spend some time with him today. I hope it's beneficial. This week talking with Dr.

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Stephen Yule and I was talking with Dr. Yule before Teddy started recording about some of his books.

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I have a list of your books that I have 20 here, but some of them are sets that you've worked on, like William Perkins.

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And some of them are individual books and some of them are smaller books like these. And the way that I came across Dr.

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Yule was through this book called Great Spoil, Thomas Manton's Spirituality of the

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Word. And it's his treatment of or kind of stealing the best from Manton on Psalm 119.

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And if you don't have that set, this is here is the three volume set.

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So it's quite a substantial commitment to read through Manton on Psalm 119.

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And when I found this book and read it, I was very pleasantly surprised at how

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Dr. Yule had put into such a small book depth and clarity, theological, biblical clarity, but warmth.

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So it really just the best of all worlds. And there are many other books. This is another one that I picked up,

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The Inner Sanctum of Puritan Piety, John Flavel's Doctrine of Mystical Union with Christ.

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And so, of course, such a central doctrine for everything in the Christian life, both the objective truths and the practical subjective application of those truths.

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And on the desk here, Teddy said, you can see this in your shot.

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There's this giant book. It's a book that someone gave me when I graduated with a master's degree.

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It's John Flavel's complete works. So you can read a couple of thousand pages or you can pick this up and kind of dip your toe in the deep end and then begin to follow up with John Flavel's works themselves.

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Well, Dr. Yule, can you just give us a quick introduction of kind of your professional life, ministry, teaching?

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Where are you at? Where have you been? Very good. Born and raised in Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, and completed most of my studies in Toronto before embarking on my

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PhD at the London School of Theology. My supervisor was Tony Lane.

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Some of your audience might be familiar with Dr. Lane and his work on John Calvin. And that was back in the late or early 2000s,

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I suppose, and completed my PhD. And since then,

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I have pastored in Ontario, where I'm from originally, and pastored in Texas and taught at several institutions, including

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Toronto Baptist Seminary and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

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And then I spent a couple of years at Heritage Baptist Theological Seminary back up in Canada, in the city of Cambridge.

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And I'm currently the professor of church history and spiritual formation at the

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Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. And so we live close to Fort Worth in the town of Granbury, my wife and I, and our youngest daughter, who's still at home.

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And I also am the preaching pastor at Fairview Baptist Church, not far from our home in Granbury.

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So that's, yeah, pastored off and on for the better part of 20 years, and been involved in theological education now for about the same period of time.

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How did you get started with the Puritan writers, and particularly

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George Swinnick? We talk about God's providence.

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It certainly was, because I fell into the Puritans literally, and then stumbled upon George Swinnick.

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I was completing my MDiv at Tyndale Seminary in Toronto. I knew who the

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Puritans were, because I had completed an MTS at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and they have some affiliation with Puritan theology and spirituality.

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So I had some knowledge of the Puritans, but not much. And I needed an elective to finish my

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MDiv, and there was an elective that just kind of fit my course schedule on Puritan piety.

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And the required reading was J .I. Packer's A Quest for Godliness, John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, Jonathan Edwards' Religious Affections, and Richard Baxter, the

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Reformed Pastor. And that was just an epiphany for me. I had read a little bit of John Owen's snippets here and there.

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Of course, I was familiar with Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. But really had no grasp on who the

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Puritans were, and their contribution to English Reformed theology, and their vision of the

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Christian life. So really, Dr. Packer's book, that was paradigm shifting for me.

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And I graduated at the end of that semester, and decided in the middle of that course,

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I was going to do PhD studies. I had no inkling prior to that moment. Of engaging in PhD studies, but the

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Puritans got such a hold on me. Transformed my thinking theologically, ecclesiastically.

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And I started to look around at institutions where I might study. Puritans I might look at.

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And I was down in a little town of St. Catharines in southern Ontario, not far from Niagara Falls.

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So your listeners will be familiar with Niagara Falls as a geographical location. Not far from there,

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St. Catharines is where my wife grew up, and my in -laws lived at the time. And there was a little bookstore, maybe a 10 -minute drive from the house, that I would visit occasionally.

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And it was associated with Reformation heritage books. It was actually

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Dr. Joel Beakey's brother. It was his workshop. And he had a little storefront attached to this workshop where they would make door frames and windows, and this sort of thing.

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And it was just a tiny little shop, but just packed full of RHB publications, and mostly

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Puritan republications. And so I was just browsing the shelves on this particular day, thinking about PhD studies.

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And then this five -volume set, ghastly orange color, caught my attention.

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The works of George Swinnick. I'd never even heard of him before that moment. I grabbed one of these volumes, sat down, and read it for about an hour, and that was it.

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I don't recommend this to any prospective PhD students. But right there on the spot, I decided

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I'm going to do my PhD on this guy. And traveled not that long after to London and met with my supervisor, and that was it.

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The next four and a half years of my life immersed in the writings of George Swinnick. So there was no planning, no real forethought.

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I say simply God's good providence taking me by the hand and leading me through a number of different circumstances to bring me through, first to PhD studies and then to focus secondly on George Swinnick.

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How would you advise a person? Because I think that the way a person could approach

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Puritan writings today would be very different than 30 years ago or 40 years ago.

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Because of the popularity of Puritans, the republication of their works, the availability of them online as well as in stores, and just the benefit of the internet, being able to locate any

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Puritan writing almost immediately. So we're kind of spoiled for choice.

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So if a person were to say to you, I've heard so many good things about these 17th century pastors.

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How would you suggest that they kind of enter into or approach reading the

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Puritans today? That's a great question. I'm thinking strictly in terms of your average man, your average woman in the pew, who's heard of the

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Puritans, maybe picked up one or two volumes. And okay, where do I go from here?

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I usually recommend first step, the Puritan Treasures for Today, which are a series published by Reformation Heritage Books.

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I think they might be up to 15 or 16 volumes. And so these are works that have been edited, the language modernized and simplified to a degree, but they really make the

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Puritans just very accessible, very readable, and introduce you then to a number of different Puritans and a broad spectrum in terms of themes, thematically.

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So just a wonderful intro to Puritan writings at a very comfortable, accessible level.

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From there, I always encourage people to think in terms of subjects and motifs that interest you, and go looking for a

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Puritan volume or volumes, the Banner of Truth series, very helpful, the

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Soli Deo Glorious series, and just look for particular books that speak to themes or subject matters that are of particular interest to you.

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I think that's very edifying. And then the third major step, I often encourage people to embrace a

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Puritan and read that Puritan's works in their entirety.

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Again, I may get some pushback from this, or you might get some pushback from this, but I encourage people to stay away, just your average reader,

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I encourage them to stay away from John Owen, Thomas Goodwin, Richard Baxter. I mean,

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Goodwin and Owen, they are phenomenal. They are theologians, but they were university professors.

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Baxter, he has his strong points, but at times is not the most,

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I don't find, is always the most gratifying read.

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What you want are the preachers. You want the pastors. And to familiarize yourself with one of those men who week in, week out, was ministering to a flock, because then that just comes through in the writings, and will speak to you in ways that some of these others can't and won't, although they're valuable.

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I mean, Goodwin has some wonderful stuff, obviously, on Christology, and Owen takes you to beautiful heights, his communion with God.

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But if you're just thinking of mastering one Puritan, a pastor, a shepherd, and someone who's manageable,

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I usually recommend John Flavel. His works aren't that daunting.

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You don't have to read everything in there, but there is such breadth and depth where you'll find, in the likes of a

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John Owen, a friend for life. It will speak to different, obviously, subject matters, different struggles, different issues, different complexities that arise in the

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Christian journey. Just a real, you know, as the Puritans are known, just a real physician of the soul.

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That's usually my three -step process, and then after that, sure, start getting into the

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Owen and the Goodwin and others, and more, what we might say, complex

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Puritan works. But I think that's a good way to ease in, because I find, at times, young men, young women, they might start at the back end, and it can become a little daunting or discouraging.

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I think this kind of approach is far more manageable, and it's certainly rewarding. I remember reading the first book

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I read by John Flavel, which I too think, he's a great place for a person to just park there, and for him to become, like you mentioned, kind of a lifelong friend, to walk alongside you.

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You know, you can read. Some writers are so helpful that you can read them, and they can haunt you in a beneficial way.

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You know, sometimes they're convicting, but even in their rebuke to your conscience, they are writers that constantly point you back to Christ.

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I remember Flavel's book, On the Fountain of Life, basically a series of sermons on the work and person of Christ.

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It was just golden. It wasn't difficult when you consider it was written a couple centuries ago.

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It was kind of like reading Spurgeon. So it wasn't effortless, but it was worth it.

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Then I found his follow -up work to that, The Method of Grace.

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For me, that really clarified early on in my

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Christian life, how does God shepherd a soul? Pneumatology, the work of the

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Spirit. How does He take all that the Father has planned and the Son has purchased and bring it to bear on a life?

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And if I can understand that, does that change the way I reach out to a brother next to me or the way

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I pastor or the way I raise my kids? So I think

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John Flavel really is just sterling when it comes to those issues.

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You've written a number of books. Can you, if someone were to say to you,

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Dr. Ewell, I'm very busy, but I would like to read a couple of your works. Could you suggest a couple that you would say, if you don't read anything else that I've written, consider these.

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What would you recommend? Well, that's a good question. In terms of the books

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I've actually written, I think that little book you referenced earlier on John Flavel, The Inner Sanctum of Puritan Piety.

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It's brief and to the point. It's paradigmatic in terms of a better understanding of the doctrine of union with Christ and how it then shapes what we might call spiritual formation, biblical spirituality, whatever expression we want to use.

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I think that's just a really helpful foundation stone in terms of our thinking as Christians and who we are in the

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Lord Jesus and the implications of that. So I often recommend that one in terms of works

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I've written on the Puritans. In terms of the Puritans themselves, works I have edited, the big two,

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I mean, just staying with John Flavel, you just referenced it, The Fountain of Life. And I edited that work, and it's available in two volumes,

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Christ Humbled Yet Exalted and Christ's Threefold Office.

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And so again, the language modernized, and I know there are a lot of purists out there. I get some pushback sometimes when

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I edit and modernize the language, and some say you shouldn't do that. I say, well, that's fine.

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I wasn't thinking about you. I was thinking about that other brother, sister in the church for whom reading, you know, 16th, 17th century

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English isn't at the top of their favorite things to do. We want to make it accessible and digestible.

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And so I did that with The Fountain of Life, and it's available through RHB, those two volumes.

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I mean, that is just, I mean, Christology. I like to say you don't need anything else.

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If you've read that and mastered it, it's the sort of book you will read again and again.

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The other is the little work I edited, The Blessed and Boundless God by George Swinnick, originally published as The Incomparableness of God.

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And so many of the members of your audience will be familiar with Stephen Sharnick, The Existence and Attributes of God.

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Sure, have at it, read it. It's tremendous. But if you want something a little more condensed, concise,

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I hate to use the word simple, but I'll use it, simple, certainly doxological, and falling within the parameters then of classical theism, and just wonderfully

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God -exalting, The Blessed and Boundless God, in terms of theology proper.

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I edited that I don't know how many years ago, and I still read it once a year in my personal devotions, because I find it just so God -honoring, and the

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Puritans had that wonderful ability to explain theology, not merely as the collection of a series of abstract ideas about God, but really celebrate theology in a very doxological manner that just leads you to worship and serve and obey our

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God, Father, Son, and Spirit. So those would be the big two. When I think of works that I've edited, well,

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I go back and read them again. There are other works I've edited I've never gone back to, but those two

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I go back to repeatedly. Yeah, I think using Swinick's small book on The Boundless and Blessed God is a great way to follow up Stephen Charnock.

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If you really push through the 800 -plus pages of Charnock, you can go to Swinick's book, and it's like a reminder of all those wonderful things that Charnock said in a very portable way.

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An interesting historical side note. I've never taken the time to investigate this, but I'd like to sometime next time

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I'm in England, that part of the world. But when Charnock went up to Oxford to complete his

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MA, Swinick, they were at the same college. Swinick was a chaplain.

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So they knew each other. And it would be interesting to me to try to discover to what degree they interacted, because Charnock has the existence and attributes of God.

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Swinick has the incomparableness of God. They both seem to be fairly dependent upon Amandus Polanus.

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And it would just be an interesting thing to, well, how much did these men interact and share their ideas and even what they were writing?

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Because they certainly would have rubbed shoulders at different junctures at Oxford University.

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Well, Dr. Yule, thank you for giving us your time. I know you're a busy man. And thank you for the insights and practical suggestions for the

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Puritans. And really, we are also grateful for the hard work of taking old works and devoting portions of your life to make those available for today's generation.

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Those are very helpful. Oh, it's been my pleasure. Great to be with you. We're thankful again for Dr.

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Yule spending time with us today. If you want to pick up some of his books and start to read them, they are manageable and very readable, but deep and helpful.

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Again, one that he mentioned was The Inner Sanctum of Puritan Piety by John Flavel. And I mentioned reading his work on Thomas Manton's Spirituality of the

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Word, which deals with Psalm 119 and what Manton said, some of the key points boiled down in a very manageable size.

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One reason we had Dr. Yule on today is because of his writings, but another is that he is going to be doing a mini -study for Media Gratia in the coming year.