Thinking Presuppositionally, Brandan Robertson and Chris Fisher

And greetings along to the dividing line, my name is James White. It is a blustery

Another blustery Tuesday afternoon here in Phoenix, Arizona That means all the pollen is just blowing all over the place, but that's

COVID too because Doesn't matter what it is. It's all COVID. Anyways Yeah, it's been a year now that we've been playing this game, but not gonna be talking about that today

Let's take a break from that Actually, I haven't talked about that for a little while specifically, but anyway, let's get focused on what we need to do today

I want to present a couple examples of why it is that all of us

I mean everybody in this audience I Mean young people.

I mean old retired plumbers. I mean professors

I mean homeschool moms Who can change diapers with one hand and Grade homeschool papers with the other hand and cook with the other hand.

That's That's how that's that. That's how talented those folks are All of you everybody needs to cultivate the capacity and ability to think presupposition

Lee Our society is no longer Functioning in a rational fashion in the sense that reason and The control of human emotion the subjection of human emotion to factuality and analysis

Logic a Recognition that the world has been created by God in a particular fashion

There are certain rules of reasoning that correspond to reality around us all of that is disappearing just just going out the door and Instead we now are living in a world of Perpetual infancy

I mentioned on Twitter That's when

I was young we had a child's limerick that we all know sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me and The whole purpose of this limerick

Was to encourage maturity Was to encourage the recognition that Words cannot hurt you that you can only allow words to hurt you.

You are in control of Your emotions that is now a cultural heresy in Fact I looked on YouTube to see if I could find and I didn't scroll to very far

I might have been able found if I had one. I'd want to spend enough time looking but Everything that came up for sticks and stones would break my bones was about bullying and how wrong that limerick is

That was everything that I at least in the first page that I saw on on YouTube And so we now live in a society of perpetual children

Maturity discipline the control of emotion the ability to think through difficult issues

That have many emotional components without allowing the emotional components to warp and twist the logic

That is not only a skill that has been lost it is a skill is now considered dangerous and hateful as Christians We should be people who honor truth.

We should be disciplined very We should be sober minded so fronis moss in Greek We should be disciplined in our thinking.

This is a way of glorifying God people are died I'm not sure what to do. My job's really boring.

And then you know, what do I do to honor God? Well, there's lots and lots of ways in everyday life But one way one thing that all of us can do is we can think his thoughts after him

We can think in the way he has designed us to think Which now is incredibly counter cultural.

It's it's the exact opposite of what the world would have us to do and So we have to think presupposition

Lee we have to think within a functioning Christian worldview and People will often say, you know when you're in a debate especially during the cross -examination period you you seem to really get focused and you're able to Pick apart people's arguments and and leave them stuttering and stammering at times.

And and what is that? It's thinking presupposition Lee I've said many times for me. It's it's almost a graphic thing.

It's it's a it's a visual thing When I'm listening to someone's argument, it's it's like I see

How the various assertions fit together and I see where they're at their foundation

There's there's no consistency and if they're arguing against the Christian worldview, there's that's always gonna be there

You may have to do some digging to find it. There are some very very sharp rebels against God But it's gonna be there you you you can you can bet you're gonna be able to find it thinking presupposition

Lee so when you hear right now so much of the cultural dialogue is done in soundbites and You need to train your mind to recognize the fundamental foundational presuppositional errors

In brief snippets as they are presented. We're gonna look at an example of that and And then we're going to also look at the fact that when you're dealing with false teachings

Within the church you have to think in the exact same way you have it's one thing to deal with secularism it's another thing to deal with heresies within the church specifically and again being able to recognize

What is at the foundation of a certain kind of argument? Identify those foundational things deal with that because that's going to be

Where you can go to the biblical text and attack that foundational error. That's extremely important and This is something that Young people can learn this is not

This is not rocket science I think if you're made in the image of God God has made your mind to work this way

The world will seek to warp your capacity to do this The world will teach you that it's best to allow your emotions to determine your thinking

But that's why you need constant exposure to the Word of God That's why you need constant exposure to good teaching and that's why you need to be constantly disciplining yourself in these particular areas and This can be done a lot of different ways there's practical ways

Obviously memorization scripture, but just on a on a mental level. It's just a practical thing

One thing I've always been thankful for is That there was a period in time in my life, and I actually got imbalanced about it but there was a period of time in life when

I was immersed in playing chess and that experience

Helped it was at a time. It's a time when we know that the mind is really developing and There are

Foundational presuppositions in how chess is played That really have helped me the entirety of my life

Parents homeschool parents If you want to teach your kids a game

Staring at a glowing screen Isn't I don't think the best way to go.

I mean you obviously can play chess on a glowing screen, too but Not just the spatial perception of a of a board in front of you, but the rules and the ability to see how your one action then changes a situation and Reasoning down a line of moves is a mental discipline

That I have transferred from that board game To all of life and especially to theology and especially apologetics

If he's gonna go there, I'm gonna go here. I mean in my junior high years

I got to the point right I I could play without a board so I could keep the entirety Remember that that and years later rich is going.

Yeah years later when we were driving up Salt Lake City We had two cars we had a

CB and They had a chess board in the rear car, and I was driving driving mind you the front car

You know thinking back. This wasn't the safest thing No I wasn't in the bug no that wasn't

I I hope I wasn't in the bug You think that was the bug oh You think so?

Wow he's thinking I was driving my Volkswagen bug. I just didn't think it'd go that fast, but anyway We were driving to Salt Lake City the general conference, and we were using

CB radios We finally got rid of those things after all these years I imagine probably the batteries went bad and ate the insides out

I'd imagine but oh man We've been at this a long long time, but it was fun. Anyways. They had a chessboard in the back what?

Yeah, what's a CB yeah people go what what are you talking about breaker one nine rubber ducky all that kind of stuff anyway

I Played the guys in the car behind me while I was driving, and I didn't have a chessboard

So I really got into it. I Know what happened was I was winning, but then

I had a real close pass I Had to pass somebody and somebody came around the corner, and it was a little close and there there went that What's I Okay, Kevin Johnson was was involved yes

I do remember that I think he may have been the one playing in the other in the other yeah, Kevin was the other one

Yep, yep anyway Sorry we chased that rabbit and it fell off a cliff anyway.

I'm just saying there are Certain things we can do To help that can be enjoyable.

I'm thinking homeschool a lot these days you know I've had my kids my grandkids over this weekend and and so you know you think about stuff like that and Chess is is a great thing why because there are certain presuppositions

Foundational issues that if you're gonna be successful in chess You gotta control the center

You you have to memorize openings you have to know what the possibilities are and you have to be able to think ahead along multiple lines

Just a practical thing There all right. Let's get into a video that has been

That went viral yesterday It went viral this is

Brandon Robertson Reverend Brandon Robertson I Remember again illustrating the strangeness of my mind

I remember where I was on bike Years ago now the last thing

I saw The last time I mentioned Brandon Robertson, and it made it into the searchable stuff on The blog was in 2018 when he declared

Same -sex marriage is holy, but I had listened to him before then

I think it was back in 2016 maybe 2015 If I recall correctly he was in the panel that had a dialogue with Michael Brown at The Christian Booksellers Association meeting or maybe it was the religious broadcasters me.

I think it's religious broadcasters now I think about it. I think that was 2016 Anyway, I know

I had already listened to him speaking before that happened because I was familiar with him and I remember where I was on the road.

This is just how my mind works When I thought to myself Now remember,

I'm the I'm the guy These days that can sit down at the computer and open a browser

To do something that I just walked into the room to do and I can no longer remember what it was But I remember years ago which direction

I was riding a bike Listening to Brandon Robertson speaking and he was seeking to try to be orthodox in his expressions and I said to myself

This young man will not remain orthodox. No not gonna happen

It may take a few years, but you just you mark it down and I was just thinking to myself well

So when this video pops up off of tik -tok, I'm not shocked.

This is the inevitable result of the LGBTQ What do you even call it,

I don't believe there is such a community the T the T destroys any community But that the

LGBTQ movements attempt to create a Christianized version

So here is here is the the video again think presupposition

Lee Don't let see what I've seen happening is people

Watch this and they're and they they've been infected by the culture their immediate response while rejecting it is emotional

Rather than biblical and Consistently flowing from a

Christian worldview. So here's here's Brandon Robertson Did you know that there's a part of the

Gospel of Mark where Jesus uses a racial slur in Mark chapter 7? There's the account of the

Seraphim Ishan woman a woman who is Syrian and Greek both of which there were strong biases against within the

Jewish Community and she comes to ask Jesus to heal her daughter who's possessed by a demon and what is

Jesus's response? He says it's not good for me to give the children's food meaning the children of Israel's food to dogs

He calls her a dog. What's amazing about this account is that the woman doesn't back down.

She speaks truth to power She confronts Jesus and says well you can think that about me But even dogs deserve the crumbs from the table her boldness and bravery to speak truth to power actually changes

Jesus mind Jesus repents of his racism and extends healing to this woman's daughter. I love this story because it's a reminder that Jesus is human

He had prejudices and bias and when confronted with it He was willing to do his work and this woman was willing to stand up and speak truth now

People saw that and Immediately they're like, okay he just said

Jesus was a racist and Had to repent of his racism because this woman was wiser and better than him and So he changed his mind and then healed her daughter in the process as a result

Now The immediate response is On the emotional level this guy's a heretic what it's a how does he not know these things

Brandon Robertson's not stupid He knows what the Orthodox position on this is and he abandoned

Orthodoxy a long time ago What he just said would not even raise an eyebrow at Union Theological Seminary.

That's why I call it the Walker Seminary It it apostatized 130 years ago

But it's still walking around doing its thing and Nobody and I said this morning again on social media and You've heard me say as many times on this program

You need to realize that if you believe that the scriptures are a

Consistent revelation of the truth of God In other words, if you view the scriptures way

Jesus did and the Apostles did way the early church did You are in a tiny minority and what calls itself

Christianity we all want to think we're in the majority and there've been a lot of evangelicals that have

Grown up thinking that either because you take sort of the fundamentalist mindset and say well everybody else is not a

Christian at all That doesn't look like me and think like me about everything or you've bought the arguments that say well the majority of scholars say this a majority of scholars say that as if the majority of Scholars somehow means something if you don't realize it today

The majority of people who are being granted the status of scholar by our society can only be granted that status by being enemies of God and therefore the whole majoritarian thing is

Worthless you're gonna be you'll learn it eventually we are a small minority and That means nothing when you live in a world of rebels against truth.

It's best to be in the small minority but that's where we are and what

Brandon Roberts is saying here this this is This is necessary for homosexuals

Because the Bible's teaching on the subject sexuality and gender is too obvious It's too clear.

And in fact the strongest argument against homosexuality is found in the consistency of scripture on the subject

That is one of the beautiful things is when Paul if Paul was the one that termed our singer arson a coy taste or if he

Took that from maybe one of his Rabbis that he learned from or whatever else it might be

The point is that he is using it consistently with what it meant 1 ,400 years earlier

And as Robert Gagnon has pointed out you can go 200 years before GS 200 years after GS You actually go a whole lot farther than that Let's just stay within a time range that allow you to actually examine the literature

There is no shred of evidence anywhere Amongst the people of God that there is the slightest

Possibility that anyone thought that anything like Homosexuality or transgenderism or any of those things?

Was in accordance with God's revealed will not the slightest bit of evidence at all

So you have the consistency of scripture the consistency of history so you you can't remain orthodox and Embrace these things and so as the woke movement

Pulls more and more people into the same Deconstruction of Christianity That that terms becoming again

I Didn't think in my lifetime that I would be seeing Marxism marching through the streets of the

United States but it started to march in our classrooms and We have talked about such things as Intersectionality within critical theory

The breaking down of any accepted norms Through the utilization of critical theory resulting in intersectionality where you have

Everyone is defined by their victim group and how many victim hoods they can claim for themselves

This breaks down any type of social cohesion anything that would hold us together as a people because mature people in the past Could look over differences because the

Things that held us together were more important than the things that divide us Critical theory says the things that divide us are more important than anything that could possibly hold us together

See the difference See why what's happening to our nation is happening to our nation And why our nation will is already pretty much

Incapable of self -defense against any nation that is unified We we will collapse from within In a in an incredibly effective way, so the point is this this deconstruction is the inevitable result of the application of critical theory and So, you know last year you had that those two guys the super popular

YouTube guys. I mean they literally make Do you have any idea how many they've made millions of dollars off YouTube?

That's how many subscribers they have And they're super super popular and They left the faith they had a shallow evangelical

Upbringing that did not prepare them to deal with With challenges a number of people respond.

I mentioned it at the time. I actually did listen To their stories on a long bike ride and but by the time

I had listened to it Half a dozen people were already responding to us. I never did. I just listened to it

I just sort of basically said wow, that was not really in -depth and and it's a shame to listen to someone

Saying these things really thinking they've they've figured all this stuff out when it's obvious They didn't bother to actually ask people or maybe this didn't figure there was anybody they could ask that could provide meaningful responses to the objections that they raised

Anyhow that they talked about that as their deconstruction Well That's what we're facing

Within the church this kind of this is just simply the end result

When once you start down the road and I heard this in Brandon from the start

So when I heard years ago the language that was being used

I'm like, I see where that trajectory is going and that trajectory Goes here.

He'll still call himself Reverend and They'll still use the the external activities of Religiosity, but what this man just said was that Jesus is not a

Savior can't be a Savior. He's a sinner. He's a racist He's not as good as a

Syrophoenician woman. She had to speak truth to power. He's not the truth He's not the way he's not the life. He's not the

Savior He was a lie from the beginning, but he'll still call himself a Christian when

I first heard him. He would have would have just recoiled from that But the process is inevitable because the foundation was gone he had embraced a lifestyle and an identity that necessitated

The incoherence of the biblical revelation that brought conviction to his heart So once he got rid of that The rest of it's gonna fall by the way

So there is no reason to believe in the doctrines of Trinity if the Bible is not a divine revelation from God There isn't it?

There is no reason to believe that Jesus Christ was the sinless Son of God There is no reason to believe that Jesus wasn't a racist

Because what what Christians have done down through the history if they looked at that and They know what the

Syrophoenician woman is going to be expecting from a Jewish man and She gets that from Jesus But she presses on she doesn't change his mind he says

I haven't So many times when people came to him from outside he said

I haven't seen such faith within Israel He was testing her faith

He was bringing that out same thing with when when the woman touched his garment and she has turned around said who touched me

Do you really think Jesus going to touch to me? Really? He's bringing forth her confession

So that he can minister to her That's what that's how it's been understood down through the ages, but once you're woke

Then you're gonna put those lenses on go. Oh look Jesus was a racist now one things

I forgot to do. Sorry I forgot to cue up a section

You know what? Hold on a second here cuz tweets and replies I might

I I might have this Mentioned to someone pretty recently

Yeah, there it is look at that, all right, let me get rid of this and Let's bring this up No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, let's go to YouTube okay, stop there stop playing that and This was

I was in I was in the audience

I rarely get to attend debates, but this was in 2015.

I had just gotten back from South Africa and Bob Gagnon was debating

Daniel Kirk at a Presbyterian Church over in Scottsdale, Arizona I think I had gotten home the day before it's a sort of still jet lag

But I got to attend this debate and I got to listen to this now Daniel Kirk at the time was adjunct

Fuller Fuller has since Parted ways And I don't know where Kirk is now but Let me let me just play this section

This is a seminary professor In a debate on homosexuality and the church now and respond appropriately

What I'm saying is this that God is doing something now

That to say we have gay and lesbian bisexual sisters brothers and other siblings is to say

God is giving his spirit in a way that we have to see Recognize and respond to God is doing this now in the 21st century

It's the time that was given to us now. Let me just explain so you understand where Kirk's coming

I'm still gonna play something more His argument his thesis was yeah, the

New Testament's fairly clear on this subject, but the Spirit led the early church to understand the

Gentiles were to be included in the people of God and that was the work of the

Spirit and today the Spirit's doing something new and The new revelation from God is that homosexuals are to be included in the church now

I would assume if he's being consistent since then he has would add transgenderism

Homosexual marriage because it's 2015 and so that was right around the Obergefell decision transgenderism and Consistency will eventually have to lead to polyamory

Pederasty the whole nine yards it there's there's no end of these things because there's no objective revelation anymore But the idea is the

Spirit can move in this new way you see So that's that's what's being argued, but listen to how he makes application the flip side of that coin is

This isn't what God did in the first century and I might wish a somebody who's now open and affirming that God had done

So so that the New Testament evidence might be more explicit But I would also say it was no more wrong for Paul to be a first century

Jew than it's wrong for us to be 21st century Christians But it might be wrong for us to continue saying the things that Paul had to say as a first century

Jew and it might be wrong for us to say even the things that Jesus probably thought as a first century

Jew because It was not in their day that the church was given the gift and the responsibility

Of responding to the fact that there are gay and lesbian Sisters and brothers children of God right here alongside us.

Okay. So there you go. There's When I heard that I'm I'm like, oh, okay, so we we shouldn't talk like Paul talked because he was a first century

Jew and Maybe not even think as Jesus thought

Because he was a first century Jew so during the break I went up to dr. Kirk and and I and I said, um

Did I understand you to say and then I repeated what he what he said and he said yeah, yeah,

I said so so Do you do not believe that Jesus was God and human flesh?

And Daniel Kirk's response to me was you don't think the Apostles believe Jesus was God To which

I said I most certainly do Yeah, I probably too quickly challenged him to debate at that point but anyway

This is this is the Academy These are the people teaching the people coming into the pulpits and So when you wonder why all these mainline denominations have just collapsed into a goo of boiling apostasy

This is why This is why It's foundational

Today or was yes yesterday Doug Wilson blog of a blog The dogs ate

Jezebel. I guess Doug decided he needed to get into the Jezebel food fest

Jezebel really wasn't an important part of the of the blog article, but he made the argument that we've been making for decades here and that is if you do not believe that This sorry about that as a whole

Yes, it's Jeffrey Rice rebuying decide point that once again says solo scripture on the front. That's why I like sit there

There you go. There's solo scripture. Okay, and the rest of solos around the spine just So, you know, and it's the 1977

NASC. Oh, yes, and is this the new printing by the way? Okay. Anyway, what was I talking about?

If you do not believe That this as a whole is a consistent divine revelation and again

I'm telling you If you do you're in a very small minority amongst people call themselves

Christians today. Okay, but if you do not You really don't have any basis to be criticizing

Brandon Robertson or Daniel Kirk or any of these other folks because it's all just a matter of opinion anyways

It's all just a matter of opinion Because we don't have a divine revelation from God Yeah, I know

Jesus said have you not read what God spoke to you saying that Jesus? Jesus thought this is the

Word of God. No question about the early church Sufficient for teaching all things

Yep, no question about it, but that was back then. We're so much smarter now, right?

If this is not consistent with self, you can't do theology if this is not consistent with self

Then you can simply say that well, yeah, it does seem that Paul Understood the

Levitical law in a certain way and and the applications and Romans 1 first Corinthians 6 for Timothy 1

Yeah but but that assumes consistency from beginning to end and That's a lot of hard work and that requires harmonization.

We don't do harmonization anymore That's old -school So all depends on what you believe about this all depends what you believe about Brandon Robertson's abandoned that and so he can say

Jesus repented of his racism Was there uh, you just moving that out of the way just coughing so much

You just didn't want to get too much Rona on that side of the of the microphone. Oh Oh, okay.

All right. Well when when you when you move that microphone I just don't know if the rich cams gonna pop on or just what

I've got to be I've got to be prepared for whatever comes up because you know There you go

Okay. Now, um, I suppose I should Be straightforward on this before we go to I want to I want to give an example of how

Clear Biblical truth Can be subjugated presuppositionally to a false narrative in theology

By looking at a debate that took place Between a Calvinist who won the debate on any meaningful level and an open theist

But I want to lay two foundations first The first foundation is to look at the scriptures with you fairly briefly so that you have a good idea of exactly what it is that we are looking at here because this is

This is amazing. I think I Forgot to look but it's somewhere on our blog.

There is an article I believe titled Isaiah and the trial the false gods or something

It was one of our old we called them information sheets back in the day and a lot of the first ones were papers that I wrote in seminary, basically and And One of the topics that I addressed was

The trial the false gods and Isaiah 40 through 48 and if you've seen my debate with Dr.

John Sanders at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando from I think it was 2001 ish around that time period

And If you've listened to my presentation against open theism, I Focused upon the fact that in Isaiah 40 to 48

Since what God does there through the prophet Isaiah, and of course if you go read most standard

Modern commentaries are gonna call this deutero, Isaiah they're gonna say that the actual prophet

Isaiah only went through chapter 39 then there is a 38 39 then there's a switch and you have the found a the fundamental issue is that since Cyrus is mentioned by name and if you apply naturalistic

Tendencies to your interpretation then that has to have been written after Cyrus Which means it could have been written by Isaiah, so it can't be prophecy.

That is that specific the fact that Jesus then uses those things and Prophetic basis for himself.

We don't have to worry about that again Modern quote -unquote Christian scholarship doesn't worry about keeping this together

There there are people today that will call themselves Christians that will then say I'm wiser than Jesus. I mean

Brandon Robertson did that He's less racist than Jesus was see and so there you go.

What? Yes, I think so The theology of God and Isaiah, okay.

All right Yeah, that's Isaiah 40 to 48 When did

I do that? I could read Hebrew when I did it. So that was toward the end of my seminary period probably 88 89 somewhere around there

Before a lot of the people in our audience were born Back when Moses was still writing

Hebrew That's what that's what pastor Luke likes to say. He says, you know so much about church history because you lived most of it

I was reading the first copy I said and in fact one of the textual variants in in the Pentateuch was because I smudged

Moses original I Still got some of the ink on my my thumb

Start talking about Geritol here in a second. Anyway, so When I was a seminary and I did learn

Hebrew I Was captivated By Isaiah 44 through 48 it is

It's beautiful. It's deep It's satisfying.

It is so awesomely theological in the specific meaning of the term theological about the doctrine of God, it's about God and The reason is

God is putting the false gods on trial. God's not putting himself on trial. God's not saying to mankind

I'm gonna sit in the dock and you judge me. It's amazing how many people think that's what's what's going on. No God is cross -examining the false gods and Demonstrating their false gods because they can't do what he can do

And so what you get is the unique Aspects of God's attributes

That the false gods cannot even begin to mimic Because they're they're false gods.

They can't do it and So it's a beautiful beautiful section I've recommended it to people's reading for years and years and years and of course in dealing with the

Mormons Many of our key texts when you think about it come out of Isaiah 40 to 48 43 10 44 5 and 6 44 24 all those all those texts are right there in that in that section, but you also have the the great

Rhetorical sections in The trial where God says who's who's like me?

You also have that incredibly scathing sarcasm About how a man can cut down a tree and he can cut it in half and with half of it

He cooks his food and the other half he builds an idol and then bows down and worships it for providing his food

It's just scathing sarcasm. It's awesome Really is But most people are familiar with for example what you have in Isaiah chapter 40

And by the way, we're gonna do some more work in this later on I'm just using this as an example right now

But remember There are a number of passages in Isaiah 40 through 48

That are cited as fulfillment passages in the ministry of Jesus Okay, so The fundamental failure of open theism the reason it is a heresy is

That it undercuts the Bible the entire

Bible's own understanding and what's the first thing Jesus does when he rises from the dead?

He gives the Apostles a Bible study lesson About how the prophets had prophesied of him from Moses onward

What is the primary apologetic of open theists to say that there can be all sorts of false prophecy in the

Bible So much for Jesus proving he was the Messiah They have to do this because if God can give specific accurate and unfailing prophecy from the past then

God's knowledge of future events including the actions of free creatures

Cannot be falsified the issue with open theism, of course, if you've not heard of it

I would highly recommend the debate with John Sanders John Sanders was one of the first formulators of Open theology.

There are many open theologies as Radical as what's called process theology

Too much more much. Okay much less radical Attempts to formulate the idea that God only knows infallibly what he himself is going to do in the future

But he cannot know What free creatures are going to do in the future? And so the open the future has to be at least partially open and then there there are differing levels as to how

Much openness there is once you get to process theology Everything's open God himself is developing and growing and changing and getting better and better and better But the reality is all open theists are really stuck with God who a

God who learns Because if there's going to be any meaning to it any room for serious

Autonomy on the part of mankind then God has to learn things God has to experience new things, which means

God is growing God is getting better or worse. I suppose I guess that would be a possibility

Process theology wouldn't process theology say God process theology says God absorbs the good and sloughs off the bad in this every moment in time not necessarily the moment that we measure moments in but every moment in time comes into existence and When it then it goes out of existence and God Absorbs the good and sloughs off the bad so he grows he's in process

So then a new moment comes into existence. And so we help God to get better by doing good ourselves you see

White head and all that stuff. I'm not getting into that right now, but open theism and It's various and sundry children

Its primary focus is upon allowing for Truly autonomous free will and I've said many times the only consistent

Arminian is an open theist Because if you just simply have a simple foreknowledge, you're not really answering the key questions

So John Sanders for example affirmed in our debate That when

God created he did not know that John Sanders would ever exist Well, why not? Because John Sanders is the result of many

Free will choices of free creatures, which is the very thing that God cannot have knowledge of I Mean think about any person including

Cyrus in the book of Isaiah is the result of many

Free choices of free creatures and if they're going to be free

Then they can't be known to God So God cannot have knowledge that someone named

Cyrus is going to exist He can predict But things like that would be

Unpredictable until you're very close to that time period especially things like names Let alone 700 years down the road.

So in Isaiah 40 you have the prophecy of John the Baptist Well, you got a problem how many freewill choices of who would marry who of Just just simply just in the genealogy

That leads to John's parents. How many times were there freewill choices as To whether someone would live or die over and over and over again people made choices that led to the

Reality that these two human beings brought about John the

Baptist who's the forerunner who Is prophesied in Isaiah chapter 40 if you say that all

God can know is what he's going to do and even then that doesn't really make much sense because if he is interacting with man, and if man is messing stuff up Because I mean the consistent open theist is gonna say yes,

Paul could have refused on the Damascus Road And so God has to come up with somebody else so all the timing of everything has to change you see and Judas remember when

I debated an open theist on that subject in Denver, remember that Bob Enyart and Bob Enyart's position was sure,

Judas could have repented and there would have been no betrayal and so The whole timing of the redemption thrown off the whole timing of the cross thrown off and God wants that to happen

You see he wants Judas to repent That's the open theist perspective again.

They're open theists who would disagree with Bob Enyart, I suppose But the the driving force is this maintenance of this human autonomy.

And so if God knows infallibly What I'm going to eat for lunch today, and I just realized

My lunch is sitting right there and I completely spaced it. Oh great. Well watch while I pass out

If God knows where I'm gonna go tomorrow For lunch infallibly and by the way if I end up meeting someone

Outside because I can't go inside they haven't gotten rid of the mask mandates yet But if I end up meeting someone tomorrow and presenting the

Gospels and they get saved God can't know that you see So God can't even drive people into himself. So open theists are all anti -reformed

Fundamentally in their in their perspectives They have to be the idea of an elect if God can't even know who's gonna exist is sort of absurd

But if God can know exactly where I'm gonna eat tomorrow, then I can't eat someplace else or what God knows is falsified

So that's how God can't know that John Sanders is gonna exist. God can't know the

Cyrus is gonna exist. There are literally millions of Free choices that could change the outcome of any of those things

So prophecy is a real problem for the open theist and A couple years ago when

I was in London, I did a radio debate with John Sanders again. He was much more aggressive in That radio program and you'll notice that what they what he was doing is well, here's a false prophecy.

Here's false prophecy here's so you have to go after scripture and That's why the trajectory of open theism is away from Orthodoxy and eventually into unbelief

That's that's its trajectory. I think it is functioned in that way for many people But with that in Isaiah chapter 40

You have these words. Let's let's let's listen to what the scriptures say beginning of verse 12 who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens by the span and Calculated the dust of the earth by the measure and weighed the mountains in a balance and the hills and a pair of scales

Okay, so let me just mention here so you've got hand span the measure a balance and pair of scales

Those all are meant to be taken together Who has directed the spirit of Yahweh or as his counselor has informed him?

With whom did he consult and who gave him understanding by the way, those are rhetorical questions

There can't be an answer to them If there is an answer, then you're you're going against Isaiah's whole point here with whom did he consult?

Well, that was a Tiamat and Marduk No There was no one he consulted

There was no one who gave him understanding if open theism is true Then God has received understanding from looking at his creation and from his creatures

But that's the opposite of With whom did he consult and who gave him understanding and who taught him in the path of justice?

I guess according to Brandon Robertson the Syrophoenician woman did and taught him knowledge and informed him of the way of understanding

See the open theist will answer this rhetoric these rhetorical questions When the point is there is no answer to these questions because no one has done these things open.

Theism is a fundamental denial of The biblical text and yet open theist will read these words and you'll see in a moment how this works

Behold the nations are like a drop from a bucket and a regard as a speck of dust on the scales

Behold, he lifts up the islands like fine dust even Lebanon is not enough to burn Nor its beasts enough for a burnt offering all the nations are as nothing before him they are regarded by him as less than nothing and meaningless to whom then will you liken

God or what likeness will you compare with him as The idol a craftsman cast it a goldsmith plates it with gold and the silver with fashions chains of silver

He who is too impoverished for such an offering selects a tree that does not rot He seeks out for himself a skillful craftsman to prepare an idol that will not totter.

Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning?

Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth it is he who sits above the circle of the earth and its inhabitants are like Grasshoppers who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in He it is who reduces rulers to nothing who makes the judges of the earth

Meaningless scarcely have they been planted scarcely have they been sown scarcely has their stock taken root in the earth

But he merely blows on them and they wither and the storm carries him away like stubble to whom then will you liken me?

That I would be his equal says the Holy One lift up your eyes on high and see who created these stars the one who leads them forth

Their hosts by number He calls them all by name because of the greatness of his might and the strength of his power

Not one of them is missing. Do you not get the point? These idols are nothing they all

Like the Babylonian gods came out of the creation itself, but God does not

God does not learn from the creation because God is the source of the creation

He made all of it if he made it then he knows it perfectly

That's why he cannot gain knowledge from that which he has made This is the argument

This is the argument against the Babylonian gods. It's the argument against the religions of men This is what makes the one true

God the one true God There's the first point I said I had two points Second point go ahead and take that down second point there is a possibility of prejudice on my part in my analysis of Of the arguments of the open theist that we'll be looking at The man's name is

Chris Fisher. I'd never heard of him before I heard of him because of Warren McGrew and so I was

Listening to Some claims that Warren McGrew made and Warren McGrew I Looked at his materials and he has this discussion open theism because I'm listening to his argumentation with Matt slick and I'm asking myself a question

What's his fundamental theology? He's a he claims to be a former Calvinist and so Where is he theologically now as far as what he believes about God?

And so I look at his YouTube thing and here's this recent thing on open theism. I go. Okay, let's see what he has to say

About open theism. That's gonna tell me a lot About where someone's going where their head is and what's primary to them because I'll be straight up front with you

If you're an open theist, it's because you are the essence of a man -centered theologian You want

God to be like you God needs to think like you God needs to have discursive thought like you you have to limit God's speech patterns to yours and it's thought patterns to yours.

That's what open theism is. It is a fundamental deification of deity So I did and so if you're going that direction

But I thought you know what? I'm not just gonna go to the end. I'm not just gonna listen to clips I'm gonna listen to what's actually said.

We're gonna be fair. It's almost was an hour and 40 minutes I'm like that did it on a long bike ride last weekend.

And so He's interviewing this guy named Chris Fisher And I was really put off by Chris Fisher I was really put off by his arrogance and his anti You know, they they complain in the program about how

Calvinists paint with broad brushes all the way through the program Both of them had brushes that were three miles wide

It's the the fact that they could not hear themselves But during the program

Chris Fisher said Calvinists are dishonest people they're worthless they can't think straight There is no sense even interacting with them

Okay. All right But during this he he mentioned the fact that he had done a debate with a

Calvinist On Isaiah 40 through 48. I'm like I got to find that I've got to find that.

All right So I'm looking for it so I go I for the first time I look at Chris Fisher's YouTube channel it honestly

Just look at it yourself. Look him up it the thumbnails are all these fluorescent colors with Warped faces.

It looks like a 14 year old gamers site it really does like someone who is just addicted to first -person shooter games and and I'm just like really seriously, and so I'm looking for this debate and I come across Defending James White and here's this thumbnail of my face distorted and So I need to be honest with you

Fired it up Within the first half minute Yeah, okay, then the first half minute

This is this is what you get welcome to God's open. I'm your host Christopher Fisher today on God is open

We're gonna be defending James White now. I have no love for the man. I have no love for James White In fact,

I have to use screenshots of his conversations because he has blocked me on Twitter for asking him a simple question

Is the human part of Jesus God? He didn't want to answer that because he doesn't Answering that would not behoove his beliefs.

Okay. I have no earthly idea what he's talking about. Okay The only person tagged by Warren McGrew some open thing.

I don't have blocked. So I don't know if that's him or not My block list is very very long.

I wasn't gonna invest time to try to find some other thing. So I don't know I don't even know what that question is.

I don't even know what the context that question was. I don't even know what his point is But it's not relevant because he continued he doesn't want to Actually tell us what he believes on that issue because it doesn't look good doesn't look good

He instead blocks you so he blocks you instead of answering questions. Yeah. Yeah, he blocks you instead of answering questions

We never answer questions on this program since the 1980s The nearly 2 ,000 episodes of dividing line.

We never answer questions. We don't ask questions in debates. We don't do anything like that We do not answer just just to give you an idea blue scum of humanity.

No intellectual integrity. Wait a minute I obviously you missed the the very beginning of this

Deep section here. Let's try it again instead blocks you so he blocks you instead of answering questions

Absolute scum of humanity. No intellectual integrity very bad individual in fact if he was in a race for the most garbage human being and the entry applicants were

James White and Matt slick and I was the judge. I would have to go with This is a hard one.

So it's carry the one Yeah, James White gets the trophy most garbage human being.

Okay, so I'm the most garbage human being So I I want to be up front let you know that I am aware of the fact that that Chris Fisher is not my biggest fan and We're not not looking for any interaction with the man because he said he he just said it there he said it with warmer group

We're not even worthy talk From his perspective. We are so dishonest. We are such stupid people that there's no reason to even talk with us

So I'm just going to demonstrate that the man doesn't have a clue what he's talking about and then we move on from there because He's he's laid the foundation of the discussion and and there you go

He does have a 500 page book on open theism, but it's more of this kind of exegesis now the debate

Was between Chris Fisher and fell by name of Daniel Madden brother Madden. Thank you for your patience. I think you did a wonderful job

Your presentation was clear. I mean 10 minutes ain't long enough for almost anything

But given the type of person you were interacting with Great thumbs up look up Daniel Madden.

I if we've met sir, I don't know what the context was. I would love to get in touch with you and congratulate you directly, but The debate was

The debate thesis was Isaiah 40 to 48 teaches open theism. Okay How in the world you get that from what we just read

Well, one of the key things that Chris Fisher kept going back to is that God learns things

Okay. I know the text said from who has he gained knowledge you and it was all rhetorical and meant and the answer is nobody but when in the opening statement

Chris Fisher goes through and one of the arguments that he makes is that God learns because he's counting

The waters He's kind of what who has measured the waters in the palm of his hand so God is

Counting and so God is learning how much water There is in his creation

Rich just fell out of his chair Okay You might say no, come on no, that's what he said

And in His rebuttal our Calvinist brother

Madden Point out that this is this is an absurd reading of What is being said?

It's saying God is the standard I mean, I mean, let me let me remind you of the the specific the specific words that were users it's

Isaiah 40 verse 12 who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and Marked off the heavens by the span.

So it's not just water It's the heavens and Calculated the dust of the earth by measure.

So now it's dust Whatever, however, you define that and weighed the mountains and a balance.

So evidently God is also going I wonder what the mountains way and the hills and a pair of scales

For the vast majority of human beings and and this is funny because Chris Fisher Likes to reduce all this because I don't get the feeling

Chris Fisher said to Warren McGrew that his dad

Knew biblical Hebrew not mourns, but but Chris Fisher's dad knew biblical Hebrew I don't get the feeling that the man actually knows the language as in being able to actually read it and So what he likes to do is he likes to talk about basic reading comprehension.

That's his way of Excusing being held to standard rules of actual hermeneutics which would require

I think he has a bachelor's degree in economics and Something in one of the sciences or something with a minor in something

That's it as far as I can tell from what was said in whatever So nothing in the biblical area.

And so what you do is you will basic reading comprehension? Okay, everybody that I know

That has basic reading comprehension reads Isaiah 40 12 goes.

What is this guy talking about? What how God God is measuring the waters because he doesn't know how much there is

That's that's what in the hollow of his hand means is he's he's wanting to gain knowledge the whole point is he made it all and In fact, if you have an actual

Christian understanding of the scriptures He sustains all of it.

In fact who does that according to Colossians chapter 1 in Whom do all things hold together?

That's Jesus So if all things hold together by the extension of God's power

Are you seriously sitting there God? I wonder how much water I made

I'm gonna measure it out in the hollow of my hand And you might go.

Okay, who can take that seriously? well Chris Fisher can't

So we're gonna sit back here for a minute And we're gonna listen to Chris Fisher double down triple down quadruple down In the cross

X discussion part on this subject Ready Get a deep seat.

Can you demonstrate from our text anywhere where he's gained knowledge? Yeah, he counts Isaiah 412.

I Already refuted that it's not at all what it's saying What it's saying is that he is the standard by which those things are measured.

So in the creation account He is the standard he uses his hand and he says this is how much water

I'm going to create So I have a question for you in regard to that. Well Okay, good. Can't can

God Forget in the Bible There is some parts where there's nescience and in our

Isaiah text There is a part where it states that God will forget people's sins

And so the question is well was Isaiah believing that was a literal forgetting of sins

Was it more I was just gonna let the whole thing play out But I just I don't want to forget any of this the promise that God gives

I It's I remove your sins as far as he says in West I will forget your iniquities

What is that talking about it's talking about perfect forgiveness What brother

Madden is asking is if God created all the water did he forget how much he for he made and notice the response is

It's incomprehensible it's it's incoherent It's a so obvious of a category error

That I'm Wondering if the two guys up top who are the moderators one of those guys hand over his mouth

I'd like to wonder if he is he chuckling he should be this is laughable It's laughable.

It's that bad But there you go, and of course brother

Madden couldn't laugh because I think I would have but Metaphor that's an open question

But it is a possibility that Isaiah believed that God can forget things like sins

Okay, so in particular can he forget how much water he created I?

Wouldn't well first of all we're discussing Isaiah So Isaiah's theology

God says who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand He is describing God counting yeah counterclaim is not refuting making a counterclaim

There's nothing in that text to support your counterclaim He is measuring the waters in the hollow of his hand the picture here being drawn is a big hand

That's counting out the water that that's the picture the mental image and what you're suggesting is okay

See this is one of the reasons it is good if you're if you're going to Try to do theology to maybe get some theological training is

Because you're taught in that training to read the rest of the verse and so you have the span you have the scale

You you have measuring devices and the whole point is That God is not a part of the creation see that see the gods that are being mocked

And are being refuted and shown to be false came out of the creation and what's funny is

When Chris Fisher is supposed to be about Isaiah 40 to 48 when Chris Fisher started his questioning of brother

Madden He didn't start with Isaiah 40 to 48 he went to the

Timot Marduk story out of Babylonian mythology from in it from the ancient Near Eastern texts and And Which are the very gods that Isaiah is refuting and then tried to use that to read back into Isaiah, which

Isaiah would have Gone you've missed the point didn't you son were you not listening?

Because he was arguing like the people against whom Isaiah was arguing in the in the Oracle, but anyway

He went to those things and the whole point is Yahweh is not a part of the creation

He is the one who made all of the creation, which is a radical claim in those days, by the way radical claim

He is the creator of all things. Therefore. He cannot gain knowledge from that which he himself created. So You have

Chris Fisher who has this overarching? philosophy of open theism

Literally turning Isaiah Upside down. That's not the first time this happened.

Jove was witnesses do that in Colossus chapter 1 They turn the argument upside down here. You're turning things upside down you're literally arguing like the people that Isaiah was refuting that God was a feuding through Isaiah and Defending their worldview as if that was actually what's going on in Isaiah 40.

It's astonishing But it shows you the power of that over arching theme and so When you look at Isaiah 40 12, you look at the whole verse

You put it in its context We read it. It's the it's the head verse of a whole diatribe on the absolute uniqueness of Yahweh and what

Chris Fisher turns it into is God's measuring God's counting and So he's learning things and of course

Madden has already planned. Did he forget how much water? Well, guess what that's gonna come up to think against the grain of this imagery

We need to flow with the text not against it. He is I don't know. Yeah, I absolutely disagree

So when you go and you take a tape measure to measure something You gain knowledge because you don't know what it is that you're measuring you already know what you're measuring

Then there's there's no sense in and saying that you're you're learning anything. He created all the water He already knows how much water there is

That's why I'm asking if you either he forgot how much water there was he forgot how big the heavens were or? He created them in the creation act

He was using himself as a standard to determine the size and the volume of these things Which I think makes the breeze perfectly well with what the text is saying.

That's right. And I think it is the natural conclusion That's right. All right, so describing creation. I mean, that's what's going on.

That is the overall theme there Yeah, he's measuring the waters in the hall of his hand is what the text said.

He is is counting Ah, you you want so nothing nothing that Madden said is Even is even in one ear out the other

Not even gonna try to respond to it Just I'm just gonna keep smiling and throw my stuff out there and I'm not even gonna

I'm not even gonna deal with what you Just said it Madden's right. That's the flow of the text plainly

It's Fisher that has completely interrupted it and yet he's projecting that on the other side very very obvious You it seems that you want to read all these verses in some special lens that's not apparent in this text

We would not do this if we came across this text and we weren't Christians No non -christian is gonna read this in and come to your conclusion that so what see this was why he went to the

Tiamat Marduk story and That's the whole point

Yes, I read Isaiah because it's in this Okay, and so not only is there a consistent message within the verses

There's a consistent message within the section within the the Prophet Isaiah and then that relationship to the rest of this.

Yes Yep, you're right. I I do but you're not Chris Fisher wasn't even close to the context in the verses

Let alone in the theology of Isaiah let alone the theology the Old Testament let alone the theology of scripture as a whole

Stated to us. It's not natural to the text. It's it's it's a it's a mitigating mechanism to subvert the text again

I don't have to defend Isaiah's views. I don't have to say why Isaiah believes what he does

We look at what Isaiah says and then we we either believe or we don't believe what he says that that that's our part in I absolutely agree, and I think it's very clear and honestly and I Think that apart from either of our opinions when someone reads that text what they understand is that the power of God to create all

Of the water exactly the amount that he wanted to create. That's what he's trying to communicate He's not communicating that he made water

Like why would why would he go and measure the water after he made it to find out how much there is that that's not what? He's trying to communicate He's trying to communicate is his ability to create the amount of water that he wanted to create

That he is the one that Established how much water there is in creation how big the the heavens are and so on, right?

The amount of water changes and fluctuates on earth. And so we got to keep that in mind that might be

I knew you'd probably the amount of water fluctuates. Oh, okay. I Know I know

These are these are the arguments that are out there and and so remember what what what should be being brought out here is he's also

Talking about dust and I guess the amount of dust changes, too and he weighs the mountains and the hills and the stars and the whole point is it's all of creation and The reason if God is the one who made it

He's not learning about what he made He didn't extend divine power to create these things ago.

Oh, hey, what did I do there? That's the open theist. That's This is this is one of the editors of One of the major websites the whole nine yards.

This is I think just letting him speak for themselves is Pretty useful and refuting this stuff.

Isaiah has in mind with this continual counting of the water It's interesting because in Isaiah 40, it might be

I can't speak for Isaiah. You'd have to ask him yourself. So Yeah, so God counts to know within the

Bible odd but we're in Isaiah 40 here and so in Isaiah 40 This is actually

If you're gonna move on to another subject I just real quickly regarding Those verses in in chapter 40 there if we move down a little bit further

It uses the exact same language to say who has measured the spirit Do you think that God had to measure his own spirit to learn how things about his own spirit?

Yeah, it's it's probably counting up or what man has shown him counsels it it seems to be some sort of idiomatic phrase to suggest that we can't fully understand

God or We're not on his level. We are so Correct, and yet that he can correct possibly possibly possibly possibly

When you hear false teachers like this You have to be able to identify the foundational

Errors in their argumentation. You have to be able to see what is actually being asserted.

And so when you say that God is Measuring the waters in the palm of his hand

Then you have to be aware of the fact that for Isaiah God made all those waters

God's the creator sustainer of those waters and It shouldn't be difficult to see where all of this of necessity has to lead

Open theism has never led anyone toward orthodoxy always away from always away from and Those who embraced it are the people who are seeking to get away from the ramifications of orthodoxy for some reason in their life personal reasons

Whatever it might be. I've said more than once I really firmly believe That if it weren't for the fact that the

Baptist faith and message specifically precludes open theism Because it it asserts the opposite That latent flowers be an open theist tomorrow

Because it's much more consistent with this idea of A man -centered

God just makes provision all up to man God just throws it out there hopes that it accomplishes something that fits

But you'll you'll never find open theism leading people Toward a higher view of Scripture.

It will all it has always led people to a lower view of Scripture. I mean when you listen to Bob Enyart in our debate in Denver and You listen to him just doing handstands trying to deal with the fact that Jesus Specifically said to the disciples so that you may know that I am

I Tell you before it comes to pass and he was talking about Judas. He was talking about the betrayal

So Jesus this is how this is I'm giving you yet another way of knowing who

I am. I am the I am and Bob Enyart will stand there and say yeah

Judas could have invalidated Jesus's prophecy Could have invalidated the way that Jesus want his disciples to know he was the

I am Judas could have done that by his own free will because fundamentally the human free will is the

God of synergistic systems It is It fundamentally is fundamentally

Well, there you go There you go Nope riches rich riches was thinking and then said no.

No, there's just nothing. There's just nothing to say There's just nothing to say. Oh, just let him talk.

Oh, there's much more. There's much more and it's gonna be it's worth Our well, I would really like to have the time

To walk through Isaiah 40 to 40 because it is one of the richest Texts of Scripture.

It really is what? The only thing I would throw into that is he said at the end and it speaks volumes

It seems to be saying right You know, I I read that along with you and it wasn't seeming to say nothing

It's saying is where it's gonna be it was clear. There was no seeming any that's because you've been corrupted by the

Platonists Rich, you're a disciple of Plato and you didn't even know it just just just reading it the way he wrote it

Yeah, you don't have to you don't have to have Plato to read Isaiah You you really really don't but there you go, there you go

All right. Well folks, thank you for joining us on the program today. I hope that is hopeful hopeful helpful to you and We'll be doing some more.

There's much more to talk about in those areas and Going through the scriptures. I didn't even

I didn't even use the annotation thing in the Bobby today I was going to I was gonna show everybody that I've got it working on this computer now

I'm just getting into annotation. It's with the with the flipboard and stuff. It's good stuff.

It's helpful. It's useful I've now got available to use in here as well. Oh, by the way, did you all notice a

Slight change Well, not really Slight change in the background

I was talking with a sister who thanked me For Having DeGrogu the studio part was just the googly eyes,

I guess but I did some thinking about it and I sort of looked around and I'm like, you know,

I think I'll One of one of the phrases that I've been using a lot over the past couple of years

Was the light of the empty tomb? The light that comes forth from the empty tomb the center point of history the the the cross and the and the tomb the empty tomb

The the focal point of what God is doing and the fact that from an epistemological perspective everything we live in the light of the empty tomb and so I I thought you know instead of a

Borg sphere what? What are you doing? Oh There you go. All right. How's that?

So instead of a Borg cube I saw online and I I searched for empty tomb decoration and There actually is a light

In that I was that's why I was searching for triple -a batteries. I wish it was a plug -in thing but I found that that's exactly what

I was looking for. That's exactly what I was looking for So there's there is the light of the empty tomb We still got a warp core back there

But most people have no earthly idea that that what that actually is so and we still got the facepalm

Picard facepalm, but I've removed most of the other Star Trek stuff And we've got the the empty tomb back there.

So so there you go In case you're wondering that was that was the thinking behind all that.

Hey, thank you very much for watch the program today We will see you Lord. Willin. I mean they could even take us down for this one,

I suppose But I can't imagine even I think almost everybody at YouTube that tried to listen to that one fell asleep pretty early on theology