March 22, 2021 Show with James Kitchen on “The Arrest, Incarceration, & Release of a Pastor Who Refused to Stop Holding Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of March 2021, and I am thrilled and honored to have on the program for the very first time,

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James Kitchen. He is a lawyer with the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms and is actually the personal lawyer for James Coates, the pastor teacher at Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and we are addressing today the arrest, incarceration, and release of a pastor who refused to stop holding church.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, James Kitchen, attorney at law.

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Thanks for having me. Well tell us, first of all, about the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms.

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So the Justice Center is essentially a public interest law firm.

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Now we don't function like a law firm financially in the sense that all of our services are provided completely free to our clients.

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Our income comes from voluntary donations from all across Canada, mostly from regular people who just send us a couple hundred or a couple thousand dollars a year.

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So we're a non -profit charity and we issue tax receipts and that's how we function.

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And we've been around about ten years exactly now, and our whole modus operandi is to defend the free society, and in Canada we do that through what's called the

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Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is the civil liberties part of the

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Canadian Constitution. And so we litigate, we often have dozens of cases on the call, and we do a little bit of public advocacy and education and that sort of thing.

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We do lots of media obviously, but primarily what we do is defend in the courts the constitutional rights of Canadians against government oppression, government attempts to restrict or eliminate those liberties.

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So before we get into Pastor James Coates' specific circumstances, tell us about some of the other cases that JCCF has been involved in and folks that you've represented.

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So we get an idea of the range of kind of things JCCF would be defending people over in Canada.

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Well, it's a pretty wide range. I've defended street preachers, which is a little bit different than defending a pastor of a regular church.

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We've done all kinds of free speech type stuff. You know, sometimes it's pro -lifers, sometimes it's those who are opposed to the transgender narrative, which oftentimes is

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Christians, but we've even defended what I guess I would call a traditional feminist who, you know, although is normally very leftist or left -wing, is opposed to the transgender narrative and, you know, wants to defend women's rights.

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And, you know, she's a free speech advocate, and so were we. So when she was getting, you know, penalized for her advocacy against transgenderism, we came in and we helped her.

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There was a city in BC, British Columbia in Canada, it's called Vancouver, it's a big city, and they were not going to allow her to speak at a library there because of her unpopular or disapproved of views regarding transgenderism.

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So we got involved and we helped her out, and the event went forward. We've actually done a number of library cases.

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Interesting enough, you know, libraries have become very politicized in Canada. They're constantly trying to censor people that they disapprove of from holding events at the library.

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We've done a number of campus free speech type things. So, you know, campus clubs, whether they're, you know, a

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Christian club or a pro -life club or even a free speech club, you know, they often get their club status taken away or they're not allowed to use a particular building on campus or they're penalized somehow.

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You know, we've had students kind of threatened with arrest by campus security. So that sort of stuff we've done a lot of over the years.

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We have done a lot of religious liberties, so things like dealing with the conversion therapy ban in Canada, which, you know, is an attack on both free speech and freedom of religion because it's basically prohibiting any discussion at all with sexuality or gender.

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Potentially even amongst, you know, parents and children. It attempts to criminalize it. So we're involved in that.

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We've been involved with attempts to institutionalize and law euthanasia in Canada.

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We've been involved with attempts to criminalize criticism of Islam.

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Pretty much everything to do, any free speech battle in Canada, we're probably involved in one way or another, whether it's, you know, sometimes we go to court, obviously, like I said earlier, but we also do a lot of presentations to law in Canada.

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It's called Parliament. That's the federal government. So, you know, oftentimes there's committees, of course, they're considering laws and they bring in, you know, stakeholders.

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And so we'll provide written and oral submissions to lawmakers as they consider what laws they're going to make, whether it's, you know, about euthanasia or censorship of Islam criticism or conversion therapy.

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So we're involved in that. So a lot of free speech stuff we're at the center of in Canada. A lot of free religion stuff we're at the center of.

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And then, you know, various other things as they relate to that. Probably the last thing I'll say that we were heavily involved in is parental rights, which, of course, comes up in the transgender context, right?

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So, you know, we had a big battle in Alberta a couple of years ago. We had sort of a left -wing government that wanted to institutionalize gay -straight alliances in schools and sort of keep them secret from parents.

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And, you know, a large number of Christian schools in the province naturally objected to that. And so we had to defend their, you know, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association in order to say that, right?

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Because ultimately, if they're a religious school, they have the constitutional right to say no to the government when the government tries to impose some sort of sexual ideology.

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So we were involved in that as well. So it's a broad range of very basic civil liberties that we're involved in.

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And even now, with COVID, we've sort of expanded into things like the right in Canada, the constitutional right to leave and enter the country.

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We've done some of that, some of the rights that are engaged by, you know, all this forced quarantine stuff.

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So we're—and that's just some of it. There's a lot of civil liberty stuff that we've really branched into and that we've always done because it all, for us, connects back to defending the free society.

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Great. And by the way, I want to let our listeners know, since you brought up the coronavirus, that my guest today,

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James Kitchen, could only be on with us for the first 90 minutes of the show. We are going to forego his personal salvation testimony for another interview, as we traditionally do with first -time guests.

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We have them give their salvation testimony, but since he has to leave us early, we're going to be joined by my personal physician,

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Dr. Joel Yeager. And Dr. Joel Yeager is someone who is vehemently opposed to churches shutting down over the coronavirus hysteria.

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And he is co -author of the book, Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken.

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And I hope that you stay tuned for the last half hour for our discussion with Dr. Yeager.

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This will be his third time joining us as a guest on this program. And if anybody wants to find out more information about the legal ministry where my guest serves as an attorney, go to jccf .ca,

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jccf .ca. And hopefully,

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I'll remember to repeat that again later on in the program. So, as most of our listeners should know, there is a pastor in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, named

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James Coates, who is now in jail and I believe being released today.

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I don't know if it's happened yet, but he was arrested and incarcerated because he refused to shut down Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada over coronavirus mandates.

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Now, can you tell us how long ago this occurred with Pastor Coates? So, following Valentine's Day on the 14th, the police contacted him and said that they'd like him to turn himself in.

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They didn't tell him at that point exactly what he was going to be charged with, but they did indicate that they were going to charge him with various offenses. So, they permitted him to wait until Tuesday.

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So, on Tuesday morning, the 16th of February, he turned himself in. That evening, there was what we call a show cause hearing, commonly also referred to as a bail hearing.

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And of course, at that hearing, it's decided whether or not the accused person will be released and what conditions they'll be released on.

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So, what we call in Canada the crown prosecutor, it's essentially the state prosecution, actually asked the justice of the peace hearing, the bail hearing, to decide that Pastor Coates should be kept in jail, essentially because he was, according to the prosecution, he was a public safety threat somehow.

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Now, the justice of the peace disagreed with that, ordered his release. But there was a condition of release, which offended

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Pastor Coates' conscience, not to mention various constitutional rights. And that was what led to him initially being put in jail, was that he refused to sign that condition of release, which of course is very rare.

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Most people are so desperate for their liberty and principle gets put to the side. So they just agree to whatever terms, so they can be let out.

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And that's, you know, unless somebody's a violent criminal, they're often let out of bail, especially the first time that they committed the system.

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And that's what would have happened with Pastor Coates, but he refused to sign the condition. And that's how we got here.

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And the condition itself was essentially that he stop holding church unless he did so in compliance with the applicable restrictions.

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Now, of course, the restrictions at that time in Alberta, and are still in place actually now, even over a month later, is that he can only have,

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Pastor Coates and his church, can only have 15 % of what their building's capacity is in the building during the

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Sunday morning worship service. So their building can hold about 600, their sanctuary can hold about 400.

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So they could only have about 90 in the building and about 65 or so in the sanctuary in order to comply with the law.

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And if they had any more than that, then, you know, according to the law, they'd be acting illegally. And he said, well, no, obviously

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I can't do that. You know, the scriptures command that the church meets as the full body of Christ. And that, you know, if we're ever going to not do that, it's going to be for reasons that are consistent with scripture, not just because the government arbitrarily says so.

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So, you know, we can't do that. And there were various other restrictions too, that obviously he wasn't following and he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't intending to follow because they violated scripture, right?

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They, they interfered with, with the worship service, right? With the fellowship, with the edification, with the worship, with, with the gathering, with ministering to each other, with everybody hearing the sermon all at once, everybody praising

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God all at once, the whole gamut, right? Everything that would happen on a normal Sunday morning worship service, you know, restricting these numbers would interfere with that.

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So, you know, he couldn't in good conscience do that, right? Because I mean, ultimately would be, would be mounting to fearing man instead of God, right?

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So obeying government over, over, over God when the two come into conflict. So it was very clear for him that he couldn't do that.

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And if you don't sign your, your condition of release, you're not released. That's how we ended up in jail.

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Now is Pastor Coates the first and or the only pastor who's been in prison for this reason?

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In Alberta for sure. I believe he's the only one in Canada, although I can't say that with complete certainty.

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That's actually what I meant in Canada. Yeah. To my knowledge, he's the only one that's been arrested in Canada.

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I almost certainly, I can say he's the only one that's been arrested and, and actually taken in and detained.

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He was actually arrested on February 7th. Now he was immediately released.

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The RCMP referred to it as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. That's the police that were dealing with him because he thought he's not actually in the city limits of Edmonton.

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So it wasn't a municipal police force. It was the RCMP. They actually, they, they came to the church. They met with him in his office on the 7th of February after, after the service on the

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Sunday. And they, they arrested him, or at least they said they did, but really it was just a meeting in his office.

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And they, they presented him with, with what we call an undertaking, which was basically demanding that he, that he follow the public health act.

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Of course he said, no, I can't do that. And he, he didn't sign the undertaking. And that was actually one of the charges he got on the 14th.

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So he was arrested actually twice, but it was only the second time that he was actually taken in and then, and then ultimately detained.

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And to my knowledge, no other pastor has been, has been detained like that and actually, actually ended up in jail.

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Well, how did the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms get involved? Well, I mean, this, this is, this goes to the core, of course, of what we do because it engages religious liberty, you know, and obviously engages freedom of a peaceful assembly and freedom of association, freedom of expression too, but especially freedom of religion and all of those things go to the core of what we do.

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So it's sort of a natural case for us. However, one of the things that we started doing back in the,

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I guess, late spring of 2020 is advising and representing many churches across Canada, particularly in Alberta.

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We're a little more well known here, especially amongst the churches. So we started doing that and then, and then of course now, unfortunately, most churches stay closed.

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But there was a few that started to open up and in particular, when things eased off last summer, there was a few churches that didn't just open, but opened all the way because they, you know, they had, they had done their research and they'd investigated the facts and they'd made a determination that, you know, staying closed even, even partially wasn't, wasn't warranted or congruent with Scripture.

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So they decided to open fully. Pastor James's coat, Pastor James's church,

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Grace Life, was one of those churches that opened fully last July. And then at some point in the fall,

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I'm going to say October, November, he got in touch with me at the Justice Centre because, you know, a number of churches who were potentially facing, you know, consequences for what they were doing reached out to us.

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And so I had been in discussions with him and advising him for several months in the lead up to this.

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So he was preparing and we were preparing all along for this to eventually happen, should the government decide to go this way.

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So it was, I mean, we had been involved since the beginning and it was, it was just a natural progression in our representation of him.

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Well, I thank God that he definitely was able to get in, not only in contact with you, but also to have you represent him during this, this occasion and this very unfortunate occasion.

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Can you tell us something about Pastor Coates, the demeanor and the way he's responding to all this?

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Obviously, if we were in some third world country or something, it'd be a far worse situation, infinitely worse.

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And of course, the incarceration length would no doubt be much longer.

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But tell us about his spirits at this point. They're very high. They're very good.

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He's a very, very courageous man. I've met a few men that are so principled and so courageous and are so clearly acting, not just on their own, but with the guidance of the

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Holy Spirit and in accordance with what they think the Lord's will is and sort of relying on that and trusting on that.

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We spoke every few days while he was in jail. It always amazed me. He'd pick up the phone and, hey, how you doing?

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And he sounded really no different than he did when we would talk before he went into jail. I mean, obviously, he was candid with me about this.

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He wasn't kneading as well. He wasn't sweeping as well. You know, it's jail, right? I mean, it's not just circumstances.

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And yet, he was undaunted. He understood with clarity why he was in there, what he was doing, and what it meant and what it was all about.

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And he handled it very well. You know, obviously, he missed his family. He missed his church, of course.

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But no, he's a man of conviction and principle. He knew what he was doing and why.

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And through the whole thing, he's—you know, something he told me that really struck me. While he was in there, towards the end of it, he said, you know, ultimately,

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I wasn't much more free outside than I now am inside. Because every time

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I held a church service, and every time I did a lot of things in my life, you know, as far as pastoral duties,

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I was doing so knowing that it was, you know, according to the government, bad or unlawful or inappropriate to do so.

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You know, and always under the threat of a ticket or being arrested or being $5 ,000 or being thrown in jail or what have you.

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So I was always living under that. And so I wasn't ultimately free. I was, you know,

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I was living out my constitutional rights and exercising them. But knowing that, you know, nobody really cared about that anymore,

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I was kind of living in a state where I was under as many constraints as it was.

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And so now in jail, it really isn't a whole lot worse. It's, you know, whether I'm in or out, I'm not free until these laws and this government oppression is thrown off.

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And that really struck me. And I believe he's right. You know, it's hard to live.

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I mean, you could still do it, but it's hard to live truly free when you're always looking over your shoulder and thinking, what's the government going to do next to try to make sure

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I can't continue to exercise my liberty? Now, what's the update on his release?

21:04

I was, I was informed. In fact, I believe the public was informed that it was supposed to be today that he was released.

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Is that still happening? Yes. In fact, he may already be out now. I haven't spoken with him since we had court this morning.

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So we just got out of court here two, three hours ago, and it was decided that he would be released today.

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The prosecution and the defense had made joint submissions to the court to withdraw certain charges and to plea to a certain charge.

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And that ultimately, if that was accepted, he would be released. And the court did accept most of what we presented to it.

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The court varied at one point because it increased the fine for the offense that he put guilty to.

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And I can get into that more if you want me to. But essentially, the court agreed. And so he is ultimately out now, and there's no conditions of release.

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And he has one remaining charge under the relevant public health legislation in Alberta, which is actually a good thing because that allows us to proceed to trial and to challenge the constitutionality of that public health provision that he is charged under.

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So let us know, what did he actually agree to under the terms of his release as far as a charge?

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So ultimately, he was charged with several public health charges, and all but one of them were withdrawn. He was also charged with a criminal offense.

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The criminal offense was that he briefed an undertaking. So I'll take you back to February 7th.

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And I mentioned that he was arrested and presented with what we call an undertaking. Basically, it's a piece of paper that the police give you and say, um, we're not going to release you from this arrest unless you agree to do this, and this, and this.

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And we're going to impose conditions. So commonly, it would be, you know, don't drink alcohol, and don't visit the house with a girlfriend that you beat up, and don't go to the bar, and don't do hard drugs, and you know, those sorts of things.

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What do you do with criminals, right? Don't go to the 7 -Eleven that you robbed last week, those sorts of things, right? So in this place, the condition was, don't hold church unless you follow the

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Public Health Act. And of course, you know, Pastor Coates explained, well, sorry guys, I can't do that. You know, like,

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I have to follow the Lord, and these laws are unjust, and they're harmful to my congregation, and it would violate my conscience to adhere to them.

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So he said no. And I get the sense the police didn't quite know what they were doing, and I can understand why this is rather unusual circumstances, because normally, if you don't agree to a condition of release from an arrest, you were to be brought before the justice of the peace right away.

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Well, they didn't do that with Pastor Coates. They just let him go anyways, and then they, you know, they noted the fact that he refused the condition.

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However, the law is, in Canada, is that you're still potentially going to be found guilty of breaching that undertaking, even if you don't agree to it, if you in fact do something contrary to it.

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So, you know, of course, the next Sunday, he went ahead and he held church, like normal. So he, in that sense, breached that condition that he never agreed to.

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So he was actually charged with a criminal offense for that, which, you know, was a bit overkill. So what happened is that the prosecution agreed to accept a plea to a non -criminal offense that is, in essence, the same, right?

24:48

A breach of an undertaking. But now it's not a criminal offense that he's pleading to.

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It's just a regulatory offense. So that's ultimately what he pled guilty to, because,

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I mean, you know, at least for Pastor Coates, and this obviously is important because he's a man of conscience and principle, you know, he was basically admitting that, yes, you know, there was a condition placed on me.

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I didn't agree to it, and I did act contrary to it, because I didn't agree to it. But I'd never go back on my word.

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I'd never agree to something and then not do it or do it, you know, contrary to what

25:25

I agreed to. But he didn't agree to it, but he breached it. And, you know, like I said, according to the law, you're at least potentially still able to be found guilty of that.

25:34

So he decided to plead guilty to that, because that charge, provided it wasn't criminal, is essentially neither here nor there, right?

25:43

You know, is Pastor Coates following the Public Health Act? Well, no, of course he's not, right? There's really no dispute about that, right?

25:48

The real dispute is whether the Public Health Act is, in fact, constitutional. That's the real dispute. So in order to, you know, drill down to the essence of that with the remaining public health charge and to get rid of the criminal charge and to get out of jail until all this can be heard at a trial, which is going to be the first week of May, that's what he pled guilty to.

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So I guess guilty is kind of the wrong phrase, because there's no real guilt here. But that's what he entered a plea to.

26:21

So that was the essence of the arrangement is, you know, get rid of the criminal charge, get rid of all the frivolous public health charges.

26:27

Let's focus on the one that really matters. Let's get him out of jail. And then let's proceed to a trial and get down to the essence of whether this stuff is actually scientific and constitutional.

26:37

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If you have a question for James Kitchen, the lawyer for Pastor James Coates of Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

26:51

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least to your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with James Kitchen and more of the arrest, incarceration, and release of a pastor who refused to stop holding church.

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I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest for the first 90 minutes of the show until 5 .30

35:37

p .m. is James Kitchen, a lawyer with the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, and a personal lawyer for James Coates, pastor and teacher at Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and we have been addressing the arrest, incarceration, and release of a pastor who refused to stop holding church.

35:56

And we do have a listener in South Central Pennsylvania, Joseph, who wants to know, was

36:03

Grace Life Church of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, continuing to have their in -person public worship while Pastor Coates was in jail, and has anybody else from the church had legal issues over it?

36:18

Well, that's a good question. Yes, nothing changed when Pastor Coates was arrested, which is interesting insofar as my guess would be, based on how the government and law enforcement approached this, is they actually expected services to dwindle or not happen at all if they took out the pastor.

36:41

And, you know, as I told, I was on another Christian program, and I told the host that, you know, that way of thinking actually makes sense, it doesn't surprise me.

36:52

If I'm in the government and I'm looking at how weak and cowardly, you know, the majority of pastors and churches have been throughout this whole thing, that would be a reasonable expectation.

37:03

It's, you know, okay, well, this church just happens to have a really strong pastor, and he's really convicted on this.

37:11

So, you know, we'll deal with him in a way that the church will comply. And, you know, but this church, fortunately, is much stronger than that, and so continued on.

37:20

There's an associate pastor on staff, and he continued preaching, and nothing changed, except for, because of the notoriety of the case, the church was actually inundated by people for the next three or four

37:32

Sundays while Pastor Coates was in jail, with people wanting to come to the church. And, of course, their normal fire code capacity is about 600 people, and they were even getting seven or eight hundred people, so they would fill up the church with the full 600, and then have another one or two hundred out of the parking lot.

37:49

So, which is great for them. I mean, you know, it's more people are hearing the gospel message, more people are getting out to church, or maybe the first time in a long time.

37:57

In fact, a lot of people showing up were either people that probably never were believers, or Christians, or hadn't been for years, and they were just so impressed with the courageous stand for truth, and, you know, in the face of government oppression, that they wanted to be there.

38:18

Which really strikes me, right? Because it's, you know, if you're truly living in truth, and if you're truly showing that you believe in a

38:24

God who's overcome the world, then, you know, you're going to do really courageous, principled things, and people are going to be attracted to that.

38:33

And a number of people expressed to the church that, of course, this is just what I've heard from reports from the church leaders that I've spoken with.

38:39

A number of people expressed, like, we are here, and we wanted to be here because we're drawn here, because you guys, nothing's putting you down.

38:49

You're continuing to stand on truth and to keep going. So that was really interesting to watch, that the numbers of the church actually increased, which, of course, is not what the government wants, or at least that's not what they say they want.

39:03

So that was interesting to see. Nobody at the church got arrested or ticketed or anything like that.

39:09

The church itself was issued with a summons, which basically just means, you know, somebody from the church will have to show up, or the church's lawyer will have to show up at the day set in court to answer for the offense that they were charged under.

39:24

And that's going to happen during the trial. Likely going to happen during the trial in the first week of May.

39:30

So, you know, the local law enforcement, you know, did issue a court summons to the church. But other than that, there was no legal enforcement, no tickets, arrests, or attempted barricades at the church or anything, anything really aggressive like that.

39:46

None of that happened. The services just went ahead. And, of course, you know, nobody that we know of contracted

39:53

COVID or, you know, otherwise ended up in the hospital or anything like that. They were all fine.

40:00

And we have an anonymous listener who says, I also host a radio program and podcast and I'm remaining anonymous because I don't want to unnecessarily offend some of the

40:12

Canadians I've had as guests. The thing that puzzles me is that I've had guests on this program from Canada who have given me different stories on how strict it has become in Canada in regard to freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

40:28

Some have told me that it is very dangerous to speak out publicly against homosexuality and other things like that from your own pulpit or on billboards, on church signs, etc.

40:39

And others have told me they've never even heard of anybody being penalized for these things. What is the true story on this?

40:49

Well, that's a hard question to answer. And I don't want to take too long. The first thing to say is, and I think this would probably apply in America, it really does depend on what part of the country you're from, right?

41:01

As I would imagine it would depend if you're in South Dakota or California, right? It's very different when it comes to free speech and all kinds of other liberty issues.

41:10

It's very different, I would imagine. Anyway, that's from an outside observer. Depending on Canada, Canada generally is less free.

41:17

It generally does not harbor any kind of strong dedication to a free society, generally speaking, culturally and politically.

41:27

However, where there is any still strong desire to remain free, you'd find that more in Alberta than anywhere else.

41:37

So if you were in, let's say, I talked about Vancouver. If you're in the coastal urban areas of BC versus Columbia, you know, if you're out in Ontario, Southern Ontario area, if you're out in the

41:49

Atlantic provinces, if you're in those, if you're in Quebec, if you're in those more, I guess, more leftist authoritarian areas of the country, you're going to find more resistance.

42:01

Amongst the people around you, amongst law enforcement, amongst the politicians, amongst the elites, right?

42:06

You're just, you're going to find that more. If you're in Alberta, you're going to find it less. Alberta, maybe a little bit

42:11

Saskatchewan as well. So that matters. I think the other thing is it depends on how much you're paying attention, right?

42:19

The new totalitarianism that's sweeping North America is a soft one. It's a velvet one, right?

42:26

It's like an iron fist with a velvet glove. It's not necessarily the government per se that will persecute you if you speak out.

42:38

You know, it's often your employer, which is private. That's not government, right? It's often your regulatory body, which is sort of a branch of government, right?

42:47

If you're a professional in Canada and you step out of line, you start saying something that's different than the orthodoxy.

42:54

You know, you're treated like a heretic and you are persecuted severely. You know, you will have your license threatened.

43:01

You will be put through all kinds of expensive and stressful investigations and taken to hearings and severely punished.

43:08

So professionals are very cowed in Canada. And it's oftentimes not so much the overt penalties, it's the threats, right?

43:19

And some people are more sensitive to that than others. Some people are paying attention to it and some people are more scared of it than others, right?

43:25

So I've met some people that are more rural and so they don't realize what happens in the cities and they would say, well, what are you worried about?

43:31

Nothing to be worried about. And I think that's partly why you will get these different stories.

43:37

You know, often what I'm going to tell people is a little bit shocking, I think, whether I'm talking to people in Canada or America, because I see this on a daily basis as to what

43:47

I do for a job, right? So I have all kinds of people that come through my door that are facing all these communist type penalties and threats and pressure.

44:00

And the rest of the world, if it's not paying attention, really doesn't know that. And we publicize as much as we can, obviously, but even then, if you're not paying attention, you might not understand just how authoritarian and how far from freedom

44:16

Canada has generally become. And it's really sped up the last five or ten years, too. I mean, I talk to a lot of people in their 50s and 60s and they say, what happened to the country

44:25

I grew up in? Because Canada was a relatively free country. You go back to the 70s and 80s, maybe even the 90s. So I think that's partly why you get these different stories, is it really depends on how much the person is paying attention and what part of the country they're from, and maybe whether or not they're scared of stuff.

44:42

Because a lot of it is that fear factor, right? Some, like I said, some professionals, some Christians are really scared of what could happen.

44:49

Others say, well, you know, come what may. And I mean, the power behind the social justice warrior elites really is a lot of threats and a lot of nasty words.

44:59

You know, their bite isn't nearly as bad as their bark. But many people are scared by just the bark.

45:05

So I think that's some of why there is these discrepancies. Now, are some of these threats being made without constitutional basis?

45:19

Like, for instance, I don't know if you can clarify whether this happened, but I have this vague memory. Our listener mentioned something that jogged a memory

45:28

I had of a pastor or an individual Christian being fined excessively for posting a

45:36

Bible verse on a billboard, and it was a verse condemning homosexuality, and he had no commentary on it or anything, and he was still fined.

45:45

I don't know if you have heard whether that's true or not. But was there a legal basis for that and other things that you are seeing in Canada?

45:54

Or are these just newly invented restrictions and mandates and laws? For instance, there are things

46:00

I keep hearing over and over again from people who are very much aware of constitutional law here in the

46:08

United States that governors in this country are declaring mandates that they have no legal authority to do.

46:19

In fact, I heard that the Constitution of Pennsylvania restricts government interference in worship services at all, and there were many pastors that I knew who were convinced that the governor was mandating that they shut down at least temporarily their services.

46:38

So there's a lot of mystery about, it seems, or confusion about what things are just very strong suggestions being veiled as official mandates and what people are having the legal right to do in places of authority.

46:59

Well, you know, there is a lot of confusion about it. One, because the law is in flux right now, at least in Canada, because Canada generally is losing its...

47:12

We're in the process of losing our constitutional rights right now. We're in the process of losing our Constitution, because ultimately what...

47:18

There's two things that protect, at least in Canada, there's two things that protect the Constitution. One would be the will of the people, and the other would be the courts, right?

47:26

I mean, we're losing both of those. The will of the people in Canada to remain a free society with constitutional rights is lacking and it's waning, right?

47:38

Generally speaking, you know, most Canadians, well, a lot of Canadians just don't give any thought to it. They just don't care. You know,

47:43

Americans, in my experience, my wife is American, and I know, at least through my in -laws and through watching stuff, it does seem to me that the majority of Americans actually do care about their

47:52

Constitution, recognizing the importance of it. Generally, Canadians don't care. But Canadians have no idea how judges are appointed to the

47:59

Supreme Court of Canada, or the process, or why it matters, or how those decisions might impact their lives, and it's all sort of veiled and nobody really pays attention.

48:09

I mean, it couldn't be any more different in America, obviously, when judges are selected or proposed.

48:16

I mean, the whole country's paying attention. It's a big deal. There's enormous debate, fierce debate, and everybody is sort of aware that, well, you know, look, the political views of these judges are going to matter enormously on whether or not our country remains free.

48:30

It doesn't even make its way into the thought process of 95 percent of Canadians. So a lot of it is just not caring, not paying attention, not understanding, and then just generally the whole political...

48:44

I mean, you know, Canadians are obviously much more left -wing in their political thinking, which means they sort of value collectivism and statism and big government intervention.

48:52

They sort of prioritize those things over top of the value of individual liberty, right?

48:59

Even if they don't quite realize what they're doing philosophically, that's what they're doing. And then, but that's sort of reflected in the courts as well, right, because the courts ultimately in Canada kind of get to define the scope or the definition of our rights and of our constitutional rights.

49:14

And if the court wants to shrink those over time, it can just by its decisions, which is what we've seen over the last 10, 15 years, maybe 20 years in Canada, is that generally our

49:24

Supreme Court and various lower courts have really circumscribed our rights. They've narrowed them, they've limited them, and they've broadened how much the government is able to violate those rights.

49:36

And so it seems that the court has lost its will, its jurisprudential will to vigorously defend our constitutional rights.

49:45

And that has only exponentially sped up over the last year that we've had COVID in Canada. So we're in the process of losing our constitution and our constitutional rights.

49:55

So it's in flux, right? So as a constitutional lawyer, I know what the law is. I've read decisions from the last 30 years or so in our constitutional rights, and I can say what the law is based on that or what it should be.

50:05

And that doesn't mean I'm necessarily be right because the law is changing, right? And judges will make a decision that is totally incongruent with what the constitutional jurisprudence was in the 1990s, but it's acceptable now, right?

50:22

So I'm not surprised there's confusion. And plus there's the fact that a lot of governments in Canada at various levels are saying, this is our recommendation, this is a public health recommendation.

50:32

Well, most people sort of treat that as a mandate, and they follow it. And the few people who don't, then the government tries to enforce it, but they say, well, this was just a recommendation.

50:41

And then the government says, well, yeah, but you have to follow it. It's not really optional. We get a lot of that with churches, and there's been a lot of confusion about that.

50:50

Like initially, the guidance, they call it guidance, the guidance in Alberta, which you can't sing in churches. Well, I mean, most good little

50:56

Christians just said, OK, we're not going to sing anymore. And then a few said, well, wait a minute, the Bible says to sing. We're going to keep singing.

51:01

And then there was this debate back and forth of, well, is it a recommended recommendation or is it a mandate? Are we actually allowed to sing or not?

51:08

And so I can understand why there's confusion. And the actual letter of the law seems to matter a little less in Canadian culture than sort of what the masses think and what government is sort of saying at its press releases.

51:23

So the confusion doesn't surprise me. It's going to continue, I think, until we, if we ever get some clarity on really the scope of what government can do and whether or not it's even lawfully permitted to simply suggest things as opposed to saying, no, you must do this and you don't have to do this.

51:40

Well, we have one more break during our interview today with James Kitchen.

51:47

And this is our midway break. And we ask you to be patient with us because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

51:53

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program twice a day in a prerecorded format, they require this middle break to be a bit longer because they have to air their own public service announcements and other local things that the

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So please do that. And also write down information or should

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I say write down questions for James Kitchen and send them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E and at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

53:06

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back with James Kitchen right after these messages from our sponsors.

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My friend Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Shop and Zion Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the

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G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme,

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Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

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For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you

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01:10:14

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01:10:19

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01:10:39

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01:10:48

and put I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today

01:10:54

James Kitchen a lawyer with the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms and personal lawyer for James Coates pastor and teacher at Grace Life Church of Edmonton Alberta Canada and we have been addressing the arrest incarceration and release of a pastor who refused to stop holding church we have another anonymous listener who says my family and I have been contemplating moving to Canada but we have concerns that as wacky as it is here the

01:11:24

United States as far as left -leaning government how bad is it there and should we reconsider moving there please be as honest as you can well

01:11:38

I mean I can't imagine then I guess it depends on this person with if they're in California in New York and perhaps they look at Canada I think it might be a little bit better but from everything

01:11:49

I've read and heard I would I'd be good I'd play

01:11:54

South Dakota a lot higher than anywhere in Canada in fact my wife and I are American we're we're contemplating moving to South Dakota I mean not not not immediately but maybe in a few years you know because I see that sort of one of the last bastions of freedom on the planet who knows what it'll stay that way but I I would rather be leaving

01:12:17

Canada for the u .s. and then leaving the u .s. for Canada if Liberty is a top priority which it sounds like it is for this person certainly is for our family yeah

01:12:26

I'd say reconsider I mean goodness I have a look at South Dakota or I don't know

01:12:32

Texas or something before coming that means something our

01:12:38

Constitution doesn't mean hardly anything I mean I'm a constitutional litigator obviously that's one of the first things that comes to mind right

01:12:45

I mean I look at the American Constitution here is something that's so much better but plus plus you have a judiciary that seems at least somewhat still dedicated to upholding not only the

01:12:57

Constitution itself but all those philosophical principles around Liberty that undergird it that's that's that's largely if not entirely lacking in Canada so you know that's that's that's something that most people would think of that of course but that's that's what

01:13:13

I look at right I see the decisions coming out of America that are at least somewhat striking down these restrictions you're not seeing that in Canada right and that doesn't really surprise me as much as it dismayed me so goodness no

01:13:28

I South Dakota before you come to Canada all right now can you trace historically when this huge shift to the left actually began obviously didn't perhaps begin as a huge shift it's probably incremental as most things are but did you have anything historically as to when and why

01:13:55

Canada started to make the left turn that they have obviously been on and continue turning

01:14:04

I would say initially in the 70s with the adoption of public health care and interestingly enough that the birthplace of that was

01:14:16

Saskatchewan which is a very rural you know otherwise fairly conservative part of Canada but but they're a little bit different than Alberta and culturally

01:14:28

I don't quite before understand that but the the birth of health care naturally I think turned things leftward and then

01:14:35

I think culturally it it sort of amped up in and I'd say sometime in the 90s especially on campuses right and then of course you're seeing that now of course you know many of those who were who were in the left -wing campuses in Canada in the 90s now or in their 40s and 50s or at least 30s and they have they have pretty important positions and so they're they're exercising that influence over over all kinds of over institutions and all kinds of things in Canada and and so I think it's

01:15:11

I think it's sped up since then I've read a little bit about how some historians think that that actually America was further left in the 50s and 60s and 70s think that Canada Canada sort of caught up and passed it and and that may be true when

01:15:23

I look at the state for Supreme Court case decisions in Canada from the 1950s and early 60s liberty is is very important and the cases are very strong and this is actually back before Canada had a an instrument as part of its

01:15:37

Constitution that protected civil liberties many people now would look back and say that 1982 we brought in what we call the

01:15:44

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is the civil liberties instrument that I use and I go to court and many people now would look back and say yeah that was the beginning of the end constitutionalizing these rights in this very specific instrument actually made things worse because prior to that it was sort of the

01:15:59

British Common Law and it was in which which had a which had a high degree of regard for Liberty and so you know

01:16:05

I can think of various decisions in the 1950s in the Supreme Court of Canada that upheld civil liberties significantly more than any decision for the

01:16:13

Supreme Court of Canada nowadays so I yeah it's it's it's hard to trace it's it's it's culture

01:16:21

I think a lot Canadians just generally have never had the same regard for Liberty and constitutionalism as Americans have and that didn't really catch up with them

01:16:35

I don't think until the 70s and 80s and 90s and then but then it caught up really fast that's that's my sort of stab at it you know

01:16:42

I don't have the historical chops for that but as a constitutional litigator that's that's that's my guess at it you know and of course you know going back to that that shift

01:16:52

I think that maybe happened in the 90s especially in the universities you know I mean ultimately the the bench the judges are a reflection of the legal profession right and you know the course the more the more your legal profession shifts leftward well then then then you know ultimately after about after long enough after enough years so does your judiciary right and that matters right now it's not going to matter for normal contract decisions or whatever but when you have these these really sticky constitutional cases your political worldview is going to inevitably matter or inevitably impact you know how you come down on this because the law is not you know black and white like it might be about some contract issue it's really a lot of political philosophy well of course if you're you know a classical liberal and you value individual liberty you prioritize that above other things that's going to impact how you how you decide right

01:17:47

I mean I can I think of I could think of past Supreme Court judges in Canada you clearly tell that they have that political philosophy of that that prioritizes liberty but if you but if you're more left -leaning and you prioritize you know a big government intervention and above individual liberty well that's gonna naturally impact your decision right and it's not you know it's just sort of inevitable it's an academic reality right so it's it's you know here here we are and that shift

01:18:18

I think is further along in Canada probably than it is in America now

01:18:23

I'm assuming it's the same way in Canada but I don't know that for a fact there is a strange bizarre love affair going on between the ultra left and Islam which makes absolutely no sense at all because everything about Christianity that the left despises

01:18:49

Islam has that in steroids or on steroids because typically the left has no interest in even discussing things about the hypostatic

01:19:03

Union or the virgin birth the sinless life the substitutionary death the bodily resurrection and I'm not talking about religious liberals obviously they reject all of those

01:19:16

I'm talking about political liberals and the political the political left and I do have to make a distinction between the left and liberalism because there is a difference but but but the political left hates what

01:19:31

Christianity stands for in regard to morality they hate what

01:19:36

Christianity stands for in regard to the role of women that biblical

01:19:43

Christianity condemns as damning behavior the sin of homosexuality and even dressing like someone in the opposite of the opposite gender and of course the murder of unborn babies and we could go on and on and on those are things that chronically faithful Islam shares with us and in places where Sharia law exists people are executed for being involved in those sins that I just listed and more and it's that's why it's very strange that you have the left frequently protecting

01:20:26

Muslims and Islam itself as just another group of victims that need to be protected now what's the situation over there in Canada and would a mosque ever be shut down for the same reasons that Grace Life Church of Edmonton was shut down there's a lot to unpack there well quickly

01:20:48

I would say that generally Christians tend to be quite loud about the things that they believe just just sort of naturally well

01:21:01

I think a lot of Christians are the you know the sort of the Bible believing conservative

01:21:07

Christians right the Grace Life churches of the world you know they and and they more and more directly stand their ground and say nope this is wrong and you know they sort of draw the government's ire and they draw the public's ire and the government feels more impressed to do something about it and you know and then of course there's all the ideology and the prejudices and all that in place but whereas generally at least in Canada from my experience you know

01:21:40

Muslims tend to try to fly under the radar a little more and they don't like to draw as much public attention to themselves and I mean

01:21:49

Christians aren't necessarily trying to they just don't care they do and so you know governments don't feel the public pressure to respond so if if a mosque you know quietly opens up or if an

01:22:02

Islamic school quietly doesn't have a GSA whether you know I think I think my guess is that there's a little bit of you know you know just just look the other way you know turn a blind eye because there isn't the public pressure demanding the government to do something right where we got

01:22:16

Grace Life Church in the left -wing public and demanding that the government do something about this terrible church that's going to kill all the grandmothers and and so I think there's that sort of you know raw political element to it you know then there is then there is sort of this very odd love affair between between radical leftism and and Islam too

01:22:35

I think that partly goes to their joint love or their or their sorry their mutual love for for authoritarianism right because Islam is very authoritarian and radical leftism is so they so although they come at it from very different angles they sort of agree at that point right the idea of a big government control controlling other people's lives those things those things fit for those two ideologies and you know and I've read this from other scholars that have sort of mentioned that and the other thing too is that you know in in the leftist world or the radical leftist world we have this this whole you know victim hierarchy and and and intersectionality and that sort of stuff which sort of tries to you know arbitrarily artificially divide up the world into oppressors and oppressed and and in their worldview you know

01:23:21

Muslims and Islam is oppressed and you know which and then they could find examples for that in North America they might say well

01:23:31

Islams and Muslims are oppressed in North America by the white patriarchy or the you know

01:23:36

Judeo -Christian worldview and they could find examples of that and that might be true of course they could sort of conveniently ignore that maybe outside North America it's the other way around right but as you mentioned in countries where surreal are placed you know the oppressors according to this

01:23:49

Marxist worldview would would would be the Muslims it would be the Islamic States so you know

01:23:55

I think there's a number of things in play there that that that contribute to that but it's it's it's definitely a complicated topic

01:24:04

I cannot help but think that the leftists in the media spotlight who have all these high and lofty words of praise for Islam I cannot help but think that it's fake because if Islam were to rise to power and create

01:24:27

Sharia law here in America for instance I know that sounds like a very unlikely thing and probably is but if it were to happen they would be the first ones to have their heads on a chopping block

01:24:37

I mean it makes makes absolutely no sense at all that they would be very passionately wanting to defend the freedoms and rights of Muslims and yet at the same time simultaneously despising the role that conservative evangelicals have in the public square in any way well you know

01:25:00

I think I think leftism as a world view and committed leftists are sort of allergic to logic and foresight so maybe that explains more than we realize things sort of matter to us a lot whereas they you know they don't to them right if they see the world through the lenses of emotion and things like critical thought and reason and logic sort of take a backseat so maybe that's maybe that counts account for part of it and it very well could well

01:25:26

I know that you have to leave early so we are going to now conclude our part of the interview and I want to remind our listeners if they want more information on this wonderful organization the justice center for constitutional freedoms in Canada they could go to jccf .ca

01:25:52

jccf .ca for Canada and that stands for the

01:25:58

Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms James Kitchen it's been an honor and a pleasure please tell

01:26:05

Pastor Coates that we are looking forward to him after he spends time with his family and a time of refreshment we're looking forward to have him join us on the program as well and we would love to have his wife in fact join him at the same time if that's at all possible well thank you so much

01:26:25

James and I look forward to your return to the program as well you were an excellent guest today alrighty folks well if you could please stay tuned because we are going to have joining us any moment now dr.

01:26:40

Joel Yeager who is the physician along with his wife at Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown Pennsylvania he happens to be my physician my personal physician and he is also the co -author of a book that everybody listening needs to get their hands on coronavirus and the leadership of the

01:27:03

Christian Church a sacred trust broken and this will be dr.

01:27:09

Yeager's third interview with us and we are looking forward to having him return to the program with his co -authors as well in the near future the co -authors of that book but if you have any questions for dr.

01:27:22

Yeager on the coronavirus and the mandates that have been taking place send us an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

01:27:32

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01:27:53

Anthony Vino and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum New York and also the host of the reform rookie dot -com website

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01:34:25

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a

01:34:34

Sunday worship service it's a place of learning scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our

01:34:51

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01:35:00

Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

01:35:09

that's linbrookbaptist .org welcome back this is Chris Arnzen and as I announced earlier for the final half hour of the program today we have my personal physician is our guest his name is

01:35:22

Dr. Joel Yeager he is founder and operator of Heritage Family Health PC in Newmanstown Pennsylvania and he is also the co -author of coronavirus and the leadership of the

01:35:37

Christian Church a sacred trust broken along with the publisher

01:35:42

Ernie Springer and Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio Dr.

01:35:50

Joel Yeager thanks Chris it's a pleasure to be back with you well for our listeners who are hearing you for the first time tell our listeners a bit about Heritage Family Health in Newmanstown Pennsylvania and why this is a unique medical practice that people should seriously consider in fact they might even consider doing what

01:36:11

I did and seek you out for my own family a doctor well thank you

01:36:19

I appreciate that and I'm honored you can learn a little bit about our office philosophy on our website heritagefamilyhealth .org

01:36:28

interestingly this year is our 10th anniversary we opened our doors here at this facility in August of 2011 we have a unique practice it's in a renovated barn in this part of rural

01:36:44

Lebanon County when you look around the landscape you see various types of barns but our office barn as we call it is very similar to a few that you can see within half a mile radius so I suppose in the late 1800s early 1900s which is when we think this barn was built that must have been the style so we operate a we call it a cash practice it's not necessarily cash but we're completely unattached from commercial insurance companies we've been doing this model now for 10 years patients pay us up front if they have insurance they receive a claim form that's submitted to their own insurance for direct reimbursement it really has freed us up to care for patients without the encumbrances of a third party

01:37:34

I've actually written about that in a book called transforming health care together in 2018 and subtitle to that book is a model for restoring the covenant of trust because historically the physician -patient relationship has always been about a covenant and instead in our modern health society we have a contract instead of a covenant and so in one of the chapters in that book

01:38:01

I outlined the difference and I think you know as reformed believers we think largely about the covenant and that's the type of model that we you know we strive to have here at Heritage Family Health and I say we because as you already mentioned my wife dr.

01:38:17

Luann is also the physician here so the two of us practice together serving somewhere around 7 ,000 patients and by God's grace our practice continues to grow by several new patients every day and we're grateful for that as long as we can accommodate our doors remain open amen and by the way

01:38:36

I'd probably need to give a disclaimer because of the imagery that you have no doubt placed in the minds of our listeners in regard to your facilities being a restored barn they they might be thinking of something very unhygienic they might think there's gonna be straw all over the floor there's going to be the smell of animals and whatever animals do

01:39:00

I know this is a gorgeous a pristine modern facility that just happens to be in what was a barn and the the renovation that has taken place you other than the the shape of the structure looking very obviously like what like it was a barn which which is what it was it's a immaculate place very very attractive place to and I didn't even mind being in the waiting room for a while there for my examination it's so it's so beautiful well thank you speaking of the straw occasionally when we still do some renovations we haven't seen this lately but there is some straw behind some of the boards up in the upstairs on the second floor but yeah it is as you said it's a modern facility that is unique I mean we have multiple vendors and the representatives coming through our office and they always say we've never seen any facility like this so we're grateful to be stewards of this property great and also if anybody wants more information on this practice you can not only go to heritage family health org but you can also call 717 949 4138 that's 717 949 4138 and hopefully

01:40:25

I will remember to announce that again at the conclusion of our interview which will be very short unfortunately but it's all the time we have a lot of today in fact since I know that you will be returning for a full two -hour interview along with your co -authors

01:40:40

Ernie Springer and dr. Daniel O 'Rourke your co -authors of the book coronavirus and the leadership of the

01:40:48

Christian Church a sacred trust broken we will be more involved in the broader scope of subjects again for our third interview in that book why don't you just give our listeners a very brief summary of that book an overall view sure so interestingly the three of us did not know each other prior to writing this book which we started sometime around July of last year and after about a three to four month period published it at the end of October it was spearheaded as you said by Ernie he and I had attended church together for a number of years but actually never met each other because I sang in a choir and he's saying or sorry he sat underneath me

01:41:35

I was in the choir loft above in a balcony so our paths never actually crossed but he was concerned about the lockdown and the shutdown of churches which of course your previous guest today was talking about and he started to do a lot of research and long story short he got in touch with me also got in touch with dr.

01:41:58

O 'Rourke and we had all independently been how should I say very suspicious of the

01:42:05

COVID narrative or the COVID hysteria as I think after if you call it Chris and had been doing a lot of research medically as well as theologically and my part of the book came out of or it was an expansion of a letter

01:42:21

I had written to our governor Tom Wolfe back in April because interestingly in the early part of 2020 from January through about mid -march my wife and I had experienced probably the sickest season that we had seen in our patients in the previous nine years and we didn't know what we were dealing with many times we tested them for the flu and it was negative and looking back

01:42:45

I'm quite convinced that that was actually the first wave of coronavirus and of course there are case reports of coronavirus actually showing up in the west coast of the

01:42:54

United States as early as November of 2019 so I'm quite convinced that when we came to January 2nd and started to see this wave of illness that that's what we were seeing so I had seen our own community including schools navigate internally how they were going to deal with sick students and you know sick teachers we had one school that closed down for a couple of days while they fumigated the entire facility and reopened for classroom instruction the following Monday so that wave had already passed and then you know enter mid to third week of March we begin to have this national emergency and as early as April I was beginning to wonder what what are we actually dealing with because it was not amounting to what we were seeing at that time in our community we weren't really seeing much of anything at that point so I was beginning to have questions about the medical aspect of it and that was what prompted my letter to our governor which is available on our website and that had received a wide circulation throughout not just the state of Pennsylvania but also throughout the country with multiple hits to our website and then of course as I said

01:44:09

Ernie and Dr. O 'Rourke were you know from their spheres of influence beginning to think through this as well and from their perspective more from a theological standpoint so the book is five chapters the first chapter and I'm going by memory no

01:44:25

I don't even have one right in front of me but the first chapter is written by Ernie and it talks about the theological implications of why churches generally should not be shut down the second chapter is written by myself and it's called

01:44:37

COVID myths and facts basically what is actually true what is not true the third chapter is written by Dr.

01:44:48

O 'Rourke and between the third and the fourth chapters he does an excellent job of describing something called jurisdictionalism which is spheres of influence outlined in Scripture from personal to family to church and then to civil government and why walking down churches actually was a violation of jurisdictionalism chapter four is particularly long but it's a well worthy read and Dr.

01:45:19

O 'Rourke masterfully weaves both theology as well as medical facts into that and then the final chapter written by myself was about a cure worse than the disease because that's what

01:45:33

I and many other physicians have seen we began to see the lockdowns having tremendous negative repercussions from economic to emotional etc so by God's grace we had a 200 and some page book come together in about three and a half months so that's that's the sort of the sketch of the book and it's had wide circulation we sell it here in our office

01:45:57

I'm surprised the number of patients who continue to buy it directly and my office visits today are about twice as long as they typically used to be only because people have questions about our society and what's true what isn't true and we begin to have patients who never had questions about vaccines for example begin to question vaccines in their children so these are discussions that can't be had in just a brief 30 seconds and what would you say is or are

01:46:35

I should rephrase that are the most troubling and baffling elements of false information that the public is being indoctrinated with on a daily basis all day long in the media especially on the left but I can say to a fairly large extent but perhaps not the dominant time of air time of Fox News but I still hear even on a regular basis things from conservatives and physicians who are continuing to promote things that would be opposed in your book so if you could tell us what are the things that you could list today that just still truly baffle you especially in regard to hearing them from the lips and from the writings of those who are in the field of medicine those who are in the field of immunology science etc what would those things be well

01:47:54

I think two words that come to mind which I addressed briefly in chapter 5 are the words professional betrayal because I really feel that my own profession has betrayed itself as well as the general public

01:48:13

I've never experienced such misinformation stated as facts and this goes the whole way back to masking and social distancing and lockdowns and of course that is all addressed in our book but I I continue to be baffled by the number of physicians not all thankfully there's many who are waking up and have been awakened for quite some months but I continue to be baffled by the number of public health you know

01:48:46

I was going to say experts but now we have to rephrase that word because I'm not sure what that word even means today because the quote experts are telling us things that we used to feel completely different about and I'm not sure exactly what drives that that's been a question that I've been continuing to ponder but certainly certainly misinformation and of course you mentioned immunologists whenever you actually study immunology you study virology you really have to be aware that coronavirus as we see it is not nearly as significant as some flags from the past for example the

01:49:32

Spanish flu in fact the publisher Ernie just sent the two of us an email today which was a great summary looking at things like the

01:49:42

Spanish flu and other plagues throughout history and how many people had actually died from that and coronavirus is at the lowest of any of those plagues in history so it's certainly not the hundreds of thousands of people that were being told and part of the reason for that is because we have a quote pandemic which is driven by case reports we've addressed this in some of our previous interviews

01:50:09

Dr. O 'Rourke addresses it in the book we're using a very very very flawed methodology at least we have been called

01:50:17

PCR testing which is notoriously inaccurate so any positive quote test gets reported as a case whether that person has symptoms or whether they don't and so we have numbers that continue to escalate but it doesn't match a clinical scenario whatsoever so that's baffling and of course there seems to be a interest in the mainstream media to keep that narrative continuing to continuing to stay alive so I think you know we hear so much today about follow the science well unfortunately science has not been followed in the coronavirus narrative because the science actually is and again

01:51:03

I always have to feel like I have to preface this by certainly coronavirus is real

01:51:09

I've had two patients die from or perhaps with that's always on the clear of COVID in a family medicine office of our size that is something that happens relatively frequently and every life is important and so I always hesitate to talk about you know we haven't had more deaths from this than we had from other things because that sounds cold and heartless it's not meant to be that I grieve with each of my patients who lose a family member however when you're talking about a public health scenario and you're trying to make public health policy you do have to look at numbers so and I think that just has not been been very well done and I wonder if part of it is reflecting the training of our current generation of physicians

01:52:00

I think so in medicine we talk about algorithms and that's basically a flowchart for if a patient presents with you know a certain clinical picture what is the appropriate way to respond to that and I subscribe to a physician database called up to date and it's a great site

01:52:21

I go to it once or twice a day it has many algorithms if the patient presents with X you know here's how you here's how you treat and manage it and I'm grateful for that but algorithms are limited because you must treat patients and not just simply numbers on paper

01:52:38

I had a patient this afternoon who had a low hemoglobin but was entirely without symptoms so we treat the patient not the number and I think here with coronavirus we're treating numbers and we're not treating patients unfortunately we're seeing patients who are impacted by lockdowns and distancing and all that who are negatively impacted and the first rule of medicine is to first do no harm and unfortunately we're actually harming these people with with that and that's another mystery to me that's another baffle the

01:53:11

Hippocratic Oath talks about that very concept first do no harm and I think we're doing incredible harm not just to patients but to society at large and that I would say is definitely a professional betrayal as well as somewhat criminal if I can put it that way

01:53:33

I've read an article on the weekend that I believe the Prime Minister of Israel Netanyahu is being sued or at least someone in the

01:53:40

Israeli government for crimes against humanity in relation to the vaccine which is an entirely different topic but one of equal importance and perhaps in our next interview we can talk about that but that's also something that is being very very nefariously presented and I would say inaccurately presented so that's yet another mystery and I know

01:54:04

Chris that's a long convoluted answer to your question somewhat rambling but that's my thought. No, that was excellent and since we are going to be out of time any minute now

01:54:13

I'd like you to basically give your final thoughts and of course you can expound upon them the next time you return for the full two -hour interview but everybody is discussing to be vaccinated or not to be vaccinated that is the question what are your thoughts right now?

01:54:33

So my thoughts remain quite strongly opposed to the vaccine and I would direct people to our website

01:54:40

HeritageFamilyHealth .org on the top right you'll find a books and resources tab if you click on that you can scroll down through you'll come to a 33 page paper written by a group of doctors from America's frontline doctors which walks through the science surrounding the coronavirus vaccine there's just a lot of skepticism

01:55:01

I guess a couple of things first of all it's it's still experimental that's what people have to understand it's not been approved yes it's under the emergency use authorization of the

01:55:12

FDA but it's not approved second of all the survival rate for coronavirus even without treatment for people under the age of 70 is 99 .5

01:55:22

% so one has to ask the question why you would be vaccinating someone for an illness that has such a high survival rate and that that rate is a

01:55:32

CDC statistic by the way for people over 70 the paper would you know make it optional but I encourage people to read that it takes a bit to read through it but it's well well worth a third point about the vaccine is most people think when they get a vaccine you're getting vaccinated against something to protect you from getting it none of the vaccine manufacturers even say that that's a possibility it's only that it may prevent you from getting a worst -case scenario but the likely possibility is it could actually do the exact opposite as a phenomenon known as pathogenic priming whereby you vaccinate someone and it primes their immune system such that when the wild virus actually hits that patient it may trigger their immune response to go into overdrive to the point where the person actually dies that was seen in prior coronavirus trials over the past 20 years using ferrets as examples first vaccine followed by a second vaccine four weeks later followed by introduction of the wild virus four weeks after that and all the ferrets died in those studies so scientists have been trying to do coronavirus vaccines for many years and have been unsuccessful

01:56:48

I should also point out that Merck a large pharmaceutical company gave up their attempt to create a vaccine for COVID here a few months ago because they could not possibly replicate the immunity in their clinical trials that people who actually had the coronavirus actually had so they said well there's no point we even develop a vaccine will instead turn to therapeutics so that's a short answer to that question

01:57:14

Chris and if you could perhaps in two minutes of summarize why would people in high places of prestige in the medical field lie to us that is constantly the thing that I hear defenders of masks and defenders of vaccines say why would they lie to us you're crazy you're a conspiracy theorist why on earth would they lie to us well can you do you have an answer obviously it might be multi -layered and too much information to provide in two minutes but whatever you can share with us in summary form yes that's a great question well so I have been practicing between my wife and I we have a combined about 40 42 years of clinical practice so we've been around for a while quite honestly some of the things that I believe now if you had told me nine months ago that I would be saying this

01:58:10

I would have probably said myself that I would be a conspiracy theorist but you know a mentor said to me some years back in relation to a church situation we were going through in fact he was praying with me over the phone he said

01:58:24

Joel has seen something that he cannot unsee and that was not in relation to something medical that was something theological and I have never forgotten that when you see something you cannot unsee it and I've seen things in my own profession that I can't turn a blind eye to so again

01:58:45

I'm not ascribing bad motives to people I'm still trying to sort out why people would lie and I you know

01:58:51

I think maybe perhaps in all fairness perhaps many people who are espousing the narrative may themselves not even be aware of the dubious nature of what they're teaching

01:59:02

I do think there's some people in top positions who know full well that what they're saying is actually suspect why that is

01:59:10

I do not know except the scriptures clear talks about the principalities and the powers of the air

01:59:17

I believe we're actually fighting a much more than just a medical issue

01:59:22

I think we're fighting a spiritual issue here and I think perhaps that's the biggest answer to the question amen and we're out of time brother

01:59:30

I look forward to having you back and once again the website is heritage family health org heritage family health org thank you for being such a superb guest

01:59:39

I look forward to your return with Ernie Springer and dr. O 'Rourke for further discussions on your book the coronavirus and the leadership of the

01:59:49

Christian church sacred trust broken I want to thank everybody who listened and I want all of you to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater