How to Deal with Joshua Harris with Justin Peters and Jim Osman

Everybody's choosy about something. It might be your favorite snack.

Two scoops of Rocky Road, please.

Your style.

Those earrings look amazing on you.

Or the things you like to do with your best friend. Woof, woof, woof. You can be choosy when it comes to getting a COVID -19 vaccine, too. If you're thinking about getting an updated vaccine, there's more than one type available.

You can find out more at wedoevaccines .com. This message was brought to you by Novavax.

Judy was boring.

Hello.

Then Judy discovered ChumbaCasino .com.

It's my little escape.

Now Judy's the life of the party.

Oh, baby. Mama's bringing home the bacon.

Whoa. Take it easy, Judy. The Chumba life is for everybody. So go to ChumbaCasino .com and play over 100 casino-style.

Games.

Join today and play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. ChumbaCasino .com, no purchase necessary. Void where prohibited by law. 18-plus terms and conditions apply. See website for details.

Welcome to The Rap Report with Andrew Rapaport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

All right. Well, welcome to another edition of The Rap Report. Today we're going to deal with a more sad topic, in a sense, for those of us who are genuine believers in Jesus Christ. And it is the topic of apostasy.

If you have been paying attention, you've heard the news about an apostate, someone who has basically revealed himself as a apostate, and that would be Joshua Harris. He's come out recently, and many people have talked about this, that he has come out and said that he is no longer a Christian and that he is apologizing to many people about this.

Now, we have some special guests to discuss this, but before we bring them on, I actually want to play a clip from Sunday's sermon from one of them. And so this is Pastor Jim Osmond. It just so happened, just by God's providence, that he was in Hebrews 6 at the time of Joshua Harris putting out his statement.

So this is great to listen to, just a short little clip. I will link the full sermon in the show notes. But listen to this before we bring in both Pastor Jim Osmond and Justin Peters.

Joshua Harris, Hebrews 6, and the Warning Against Apostasy

Media, where you've been asleep for the last month, you probably read that Joshua Harris formally abandoned his faith in Christ, or that's how he would phrase it, at least. Joshua Harris, for those of you who might not know, and this sermon is not about Joshua Harris, but in the providence of God, we are given a very real, very public example of the very thing we've been looking at in Hebrews 6.

And so I'm going to simply use him as an example here just briefly. Joshua Harris, back in the 1990s, wrote the book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. And it was kind of the launch of what has been officially called the purity movement or the courtship movement.

And Joshua Harris comes from a prominent Christian homeschooling family, and they have been prominent in the sight of evangelicals for probably almost three decades. That book sold between 1 .2 and two million copies, depending on which publisher's trying to promote it.

But it sold a lot, and it has made its mark on a whole generation of Christians. And it's been highly influential. And he is the oldest son of among a group of children in the Harris family, many of whom have been authors.

Brett Harris and Alex Harris wrote Do Hard Things. Joshua Harris wrote a number of books talking about purity and marriage and all of the things related to being a Christian in today's culture. He was also the pastor, and I bring this up because this is significant.

He was the pastor of Covenant Life Church until 2014. Now, Covenant Life Church is not a leftward-leaning denomination. That church was founded by C .J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries. We sing a lot of their Sovereign Grace songs.

So all of that just simply to say that that church that he pastored for a number of years is well within the pale of orthodoxy. It is within our theological camp, broadly speaking, that we wouldn't agree on everything.

We'd certainly agree with the basic doctrines of soteriology and salvation. And that is to say that he would not believe that you can lose your salvation. At least that's what he would have preached, being consistent with their theology.

So we would have agreement with that church. So he kissed the Covenant Life Church goodbye in 2014. He also kissed the Gospel Coalition goodbye in 2014 as he resigned from that. And then in 2018, he began to kiss I Kiss Dating Goodbye goodbye as he began to renege on some of his principles in his book and actually backed away from it and participated in a documentary that was intended to criticize what he taught in that book regarding purity and dating and sexual culture within the church, et cetera.

And then a few weeks ago, he announced that he and his wife were separating. And a couple days after that, he announced that they were getting a divorce. So now he's kissed his wife goodbye. And a couple of days after he kissed his wife goodbye, he kissed Christianity goodbye in a very public statement on Instagram, accompanied by a picture of him looking pensively and thoughtfully out over a mountain lake and the mountains and everything posted on social media.

And nothing will gain you interviews in almost every venue in the country faster than publicly renouncing the faith that you say you once held to profess.

All right. So that was Pastor Jim Osmond in his sermon, Things That Accompany Salvation on Hebrews chapter six, verses 11 and 12, which come to think of it, I think when I was first out at the church, at Pastor Osmond's church, he was still in Hebrews back then.

So you're planning on being in Hebrews, for like an entire generation, I think, at this rate.

Yeah, we go as slowly as we need to go, Andrew. And that message is just one of a number in chapter six. How many, I'll let you guess, how many messages do you think that I preached on the Hebrews warning passage, starting at five, verse 11 and going through six, verse 12?

Oh, I would say with you, a dozen.

It was 18, actually, which I was kind of shocked at that as well. I know, I thought it might be a dozen, but I went back and counted before we started the program. But that was just the end of it. That message that you cited there was the very last message in the warning passage.

And I was grateful, at least, that we had such a great example of the apostasy that Hebrews six describes.

Well, let's talk about this. For folks who don't know, you gave, actually, in there, a pretty good description. Joshua Harris was someone I believe, and you guys could correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that Joshua Harris was someone who, as a young man, was rushed into ministry, given a very big platform because of his father, then seen by C .J. Mahaney as having some talent and a platform and rushed into a pastorate, never having any education for ministry.

And with that platform, was just rushed in as a leader without ever learning what it means to be a church attender or as a Christian. And so I think that for years, my guess, I mean, now that he's come out, my guess is that he's always been struggling with this whole thing of how do you quit when you have this platform?

First off, I think the verse that all of us are familiar with when we think of this situation is 1 John 2 .19, which says, "'They went out from us, but they were not of us, "'for if they had been of us, "'they would have continued with us.

"'But they went out, that it might be plain "'that they were not of us.'". And I think in your sermon, you made it clear. If I had this clip cued up, I should have played it, but you made it clear. It's not that the headlines say that Joshua Harris left the faith.

You had said in your sermon, he didn't leave the faith. The headline should have said, he stopped pretending. I mean, he exposed he was always the hypocrite.

Yeah, yeah, Joshua Harris came out and showed us what he's been all along. That would be biblical theology, that a true believer, truly one who was saved, chosen by God, saved, atoned for, in the eyes of God glorified, is not going to fall away and slip away and be lost for all of eternity, because that would violate what the Bible says about Christ's ability to save, sanctify, and secure his own everlastingly.

And I think you just nailed what the real issue is, okay? And Justin and I just recorded Apologetics Live just before we started recording this, and we were dealing with a Roman Catholic with the same thing.

Who's the source of salvation? And the Catholic had to say the church. And we would say, no, it's God. God saves us. And so in your response, you really nailed the core issue that people need to always do, they got to take a step back and think about things and the foundation of these arguments.

Salvation's based on God. If God saves a person, then a person can't lose something God does for them. God changes their nature, takes them from being a sinner who's an enmity with God, and takes that sinner and adopts them into the family of God.

And people want to argue that somehow they can revert their nature back after God changes it? That's just not possible.

Now think of what would have to be undone in the event of somebody losing their salvation. They would have to become unelected or unchosen. They would have to become unsanctified, unset apart before their mother's womb.

They would have to be unatoned for. All of their sins would have to be taken off of Christ and imputed back to them, and all of the righteousness that's theirs by Christ taken away from them and given back to Christ.

They would have to lose their standing with being adopted, their standing of being forgiven, their standing of being redeemed, and the past tense of Romans 8 being glorified with God. And Jesus Christ would have to be proven to be a liar because he said in John 6 that he would not lose any of those who come to him for salvation.

So if he loses even one of his sheep, then he is a liar. He has failed to do what the Father sent him to do because in John 6, he spells that out. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and those who come to me I will not cast out, and the one who comes to me will believe, I will give them eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day, and I will lose not one.

For this reason, I came down from heaven to do the will of the Father, which is that of all that the Father's given to me, I lose not one. That's Jesus' promise. As you work your way through John 6, and of course John 10 and 17, all the promise of security of the believer.

And if one person, Joshua Harris, if he was a Christian, and now he is not and he is perishing, then that proves Jesus Christ is a liar, and he failed to do what the Father gave him to do, which was to come and to save Joshua Harris, and now he's failed in his mission, which the Father gave him to do.

And I don't think that there's any room in biblical theology to believe that.

Well, yeah, and here's the thing. When were the sins paid for? Back at the cross. Therefore, every sin that Joshua Harris does, that you do, that I do, every sin that we've ever done in our entire life, even the ones we haven't done yet, are all future to the payment.

So how could it be that somehow God pays the fine, Christ pays the fine on the cross 2 ,000 years ago. I sinned three years ago, it's paid for, but somehow if I sin tomorrow, it's undone.

Right.

I mean, they were all future to the payment. Did God not know back at the cross? I only knew...

The payment is sufficient, or it's not.

Yeah, I only knew the sins you were gonna commit up until this date. After that, I had a blind spot.

Right.

So, Justin, and this is Justin Peters from justinpeters .org. When you first heard the news with Joshua Harris, what were your thoughts? What, you know, where did you go with this?

Well, I guess I should say I didn't. I've never read his books. I've read excerpts of a couple of them, but when I saw that he kissed his marriage goodbye, honestly, the subsequent announcement that he has kissed his faith goodbye did not surprise me in the least.

In fact, I kind of expected it. But I agree with Jim 100 in what Jim just said. All of the headlines have been wrong. He has not renounced his faith. He has proved himself to be who he has always been.

He's never been a believer. And everything that Jim just said, I think that is an ironclad, airtight case for the eternal security of the believer. If Josh Harris was a genuine Christian, and now he is not, then you have undone the atonement.

You've made Jesus out to be a liar, and therefore you've undone his deity, and there's no such thing as biblical Christianity. So he is just, he's exactly what 1 John 2, 19 says. He has proven that he never was of us to begin with.

That's not an arrogant thing to say. That is simply what scripture teaches.

When we think about people that claim they used to be a Christian, and now they make a claim that they don't believe in Christ, they've apostatized. Jim explained some of the theology of this. Why do you think it is that people end up thinking they were once Christian, and then they change their mind?

We have people who say, well, I used to be a Christian, and Josh Harris would now say that, even though everything in Josh Harris's theology would tell him he was never a believer, he's saying he lost his faith.

We would say, no, you never had it. Prior, he would have said the same. Why is it that people end up saying, I used to be a Christian, and now I lost my faith?

Yeah, because there's so many people that have had some kind of an emotional response to the gospel. When they heard the gospel, it resonated with them at some level, whether it was simply because that was the environment in which they were raised, that was their worldview in which they were raised, they've known nothing else.

And so, usually as a child, a young child, they pray a sinner's prayer, quote-unquote, walk the aisle, get baptized, make intellectual ascent to the basics of the gospel, claim to be a Christian, because that's all they've ever known, that's their worldview in which they're raised.

But, and so they think they're a Christian, but then, once they grow up, and the trials of life come, and their faith is tested, then they walk away. They renounce it, because they were never truly regenerate in the first place.

They have had some experiences with it, they've warmed their hands by the fire, and I think this is what Hebrews six is describing, but they were never truly regenerate. Their faith had never really been tested.

In fact, I came across a quote from Charles Spurgeon just today, and Charles Spurgeon said, he said, don't number your fish before they are broiled, nor count your converts before you have tested and tried them.

And Josh Harris was tested and tried, by postmodern culture, by religious pluralism, by societal changes, and he failed the test. He failed the test. So I think that that's exactly what's going on with Josh Harris and all these, then the Marty Sampson guy from the writer of Music and Hillsong, he as well.

So, yeah, they made some intellectual assent to basic gospel facts, warmed their hands by the fires, they partook of some activities of the church, and they look like the real thing, but they're false converts.

And you have this, you have these kinds of people in every church, and unfortunately, some of them are just a lot more visible than others. Some of them, unfortunately, are given a platform, and they're in the spotlight before they've been tested, and that's what we see with Josh Harris.

And I

Hey, Andrew, I'm gonna chime in there. I would be interested to know if Joshua Harris would describe himself as, I once was a Christian, but now I'm not, because in his public statement that he made, and I'm giving a rough paraphrase here, he basically said, by every measure or mark that I have to measure what a Christian is, I am not one.

He didn't say I was one and now I'm not, he just said, I am not one. And given what he would preach and what he would know the scripture says and what he has preached in the past, I would think that he would know that if he is not one now, he never has been one.

And what his assessment of his own spiritual journey would be, I hope that that comes out at some point. Would he say now that he thinks he was a believer at some point and now he's not, or would he be honest enough to say, look, I never was a believer, the whole thing was a charade, I've known all this time, I've just been pretending because of societal and cultural expectations upon me as a Christian, thrust into leadership and my parents.

I don't know what his own assessment of that would be. We have plenty of people who would say, I was a Christian, now I'm not one, but I'm not sure that Joshua Harris would fall into that camp. Unless you guys know of something he has said publicly since his apostasy, I don't know of anything that would indicate that he believes now that he ever was a Christian.

Well, I think he said he lost his faith. I agree with you, he should know better when he does give the explanation. He should say, I was a hypocrite that stopped pretending. I mean, that's what scripture would say.

And he knows that. That would be the theological position he would have held to, and I hope he would come out and say that. However, I think that a big reason why people like this won't do that is simply because they want the authority to say, I used to be a Christian, and it gives them an appeal to authority.

So, here's what we're gonna see, and you mentioned this in your sermon. He is now speaking everywhere. He has a bigger platform than he had before. He had a big platform within a small sect of Christian circles.

He had, as you mentioned, books that sold overwhelmingly. And now, however, he is within one week of announcing that he left the faith and apologizing to the LGTB community. He's now at their events. I predict, I'm not a prophet or the son of a prophet.

I may be a Levite, but I'm not a prophet. I predict that what you're gonna see is he's gonna start coming out with books. He's gonna be on the speaking circuit. You're gonna see him at the Reason Rally and all these LGBT rallies.

They are gonna put him on stage, and he's gonna make a ton more money than he did before because he is now gonna have a bigger platform with people that are willing to pay.

And

Yeah, Bart Ehrman has proved that there's money to be made in apostasy.

Correct, and this is something that I wanna get to later, but I'm gonna mention it now, and we'll get to this later on in the show because you mentioned something that I wanna dig into because if people listen to your sermon, I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but you mentioned a tsunami of apostasy.

And I actually, I think, and we'll talk about this later because I think there will be an apostasy, a tsunami of apostasy. I think there's gonna be many people to follow, and I think Marty Sampson is only one of many to follow.

But let's stick with something that Justin said first. Justin, you brought out, and really you have a book about children and what conversion is, about children conversion. Should children get baptized?

It's called Do Not Hinder Them and available at justinpeters .org. But you were talking about the fact that here you have a guy, Joshua Harris. He grew up in a Christian home. Let's be specific. He grew up in a homeschooling home, homeschool home, where his parents were really the forerunners of homeschooling.

So I kind of see a lot of pressure put on all of the children to perform, to be seen as here. We've proven that homeschooling is good. Look at my boys. They all have national platforms. They're all best-selling authors.

They're all godly Christians, pastor of a church. Look at them. And now I think it's falling apart. I think they're pushed into it because of the upbringing. There would have been a lot of pressure for performance.

So Justin, I want to start there because you have written on this. Why children that get baptized at a young age, they're raised to believe that they're believers just because they're in a Christian home.

How dangerous is that?

Enormously dangerous, Andrew. And it is exactly why I wrote that book because what we see over and over and over is that children who are raised in evangelical homes, and Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis has written a book on this, and there's a couple of different studies out there, but it's basically the majority, somewhere between 60, 70 of children who are raised in evangelical homes, and they make professions of faith at very early ages.

Once they grow up, they leave home, they start their own life. Once they have independence, roughly about two thirds of them leave the church, and there's no genuine evidence of conversion, real evidence of conversion ever having taken place in their lives.

And the reason for this is that children, by their nature, as Paul says in Ephesians 4 .14, are easily tossed to and fro. A child will believe whatever you tell him, and a child will adopt the worldview in which he is raised until he is older and that worldview is tested by trials, by temptations.

You're not gonna know if that profession of faith is real until he has, until he's been tested. You take a typical child, five, six, seven, eight years old, raised in a Southern Baptist church, praises sinners prayer, oftentimes at vacation Bible school, makes a profession of faith, gets baptized.

If you were to take that same child and raise that child in India, he would be a Hindu. Take that same child, raise that child in Japan,.

He'd be a Buddhist.

Take that same child, raise that child in Syria, he'd be a Muslim. Children just adopt the worldview in which they're raised, they know nothing else. And so this is why it is very unwise to baptize children at early ages.

Their faith isn't, they haven't owned it, it's not been tested. They're just adopting the worldview in which they're raised and in all likelihood, nothing more. So, you know, it's kind of, it's striking to me, the earliest conversion that we know of in the New Testament is that of Timothy, aside from John the Baptist, and that's a special case, but the earliest conversion we know of definitively would be that of Timothy.

And he was probably about 17 years old when he was converted after he heard the gospel presented from Paul. And it's kind of striking when Paul writes to Timothy, he says, let no one despise you for your youth.

We think of Timothy being a teenager when Paul wrote that to him. No, Timothy was probably 32, 33, 34 years old when Paul wrote that to him. So, and sadly, that's what we see with Joshua Harris. That's the worldview in which he was raised, that's what he adopted.

He was given a platform. This is why 21-year-olds should not be writing books. And when he was tested, his faith was tested, it was found wanting, so.

A Tsunami of Apostasy and the Rise of Public Renunciation

Okay, so after this break, what I wanna do is I wanna get into now Marty Samson, who supposedly left the faith. And then I wanna discuss this thing that really came up in Jim's sermon about a tsunami of apostasy.

Let's discuss that right after this break.

Ding dong, Jehovah's Witnesses. Ding dong, Mormons. Christian, are you ready to defend the faith when false religions ring your doorbell? Do you know what your Muslim and Jewish friends believe? You will if you get Andrew Rappaport's book, What Do They Believe?

When we witness to people, we need to present the truth, but it is very wise to know what they believe. And you will get Andrew Rappaport's book at whatdotheybelieve .com.

Hey, I'm Daryl and I'm here with my wife, Karen.

What's up?

And we're the hosts of the What Are We Even Doing Here?

Podcast.

The podcast that seeks to answer the question that we all ask, what are we even doing here? We cover topics such as marriage, family, life, and living a Christian life in this crazy world. We don't have all the answers, but we know where to look.

Subscribe to us on iTunes and follow us on SoundCloud as we seek the kingdom of God and find out what we are even doing here. Grace and peace.

Okay, so you mentioned a tsunami of apostasy. I see this already starting. You have, I think, Joshua Harris, who's gonna suddenly be seen as making a lot of money. He's gonna be seen as having this platform.

And I just, I can anticipate us looking at this and we're gonna see that we're gonna have a number of people. We already see Morty Sampson from, I believe it's Hillsong. Justin, is that where he's at?

Yes. Right?

Yes. Yeah, he was a music writer for Hillsong.

So we already see that he's already apostasizing as well. I'm sure he's gonna suddenly get a platform. I think, as Jim mentioned, if you really wanna make money, have some credibility of saying that you used to be a pastor and then deny Christianity, and even more so what Joshua Harris is doing, embrace LGTBQRST.

You're gonna get a huge platform. You're gonna get lots of money. Part of me, and when we speak about this, part of me was actually thinking, like I almost don't wanna mention these guys' names because it only increases their platform as more and more people are talking about them.

And they are now blaspheming the name of Christ. And it's almost like we warn people, but as we warn people, we're helping them build their platform. Against Christ, which is frustrating, but yet people have to be warned.

So there's two questions that I have for you guys I wanna discuss. One is, Jim, why do you think there's gonna be a tsunami of apostasy? Do you expect others to be following? And then a follow-up is, how do we go about exposing people without increasing their platform, their anti-Christian platform?

Yeah, to be clear about the tsunami of apostasy, I did say that in the message and I need to credit that language to James White, who I heard you said on the dividing line. That's not my language. I thought that the imagery of a tsunami was perfectly captured as what I think we can expect to have happen to us.

And that is, we're gonna be hit by something that's gonna sweep along a lot of people in its wake and cause a lot of destruction. And I think that that is coming simply because as I said in the sermon on this last Sunday, the spirit of our age is capitulation.

And we are under pressure as Christians to conform to the culture and to the world in our thinking and our behavior and our ethical and moral standards, our view of gender, our view of God's, God's institution of marriage, our view of human sexuality and what is moral and immoral.

And the heat is being turned up on Christians. And I think that we're gonna see more and more people who are just willing to say, you know what, it cost me a lot more to be a Christian and have to deal with all this hatred.

And it would be a lot better if I could just go along with the flow. And I think that this will be the dividing line. This I think will be the thing that takes a lot of wolves sheep's clothing off. So I do think we have a lot more to come.

I mean, the social justice movement, which you've talked about, and of course, Justin has written about as well, that influence in the Southern Baptist Convention and among a lot of notable evangelicals, I don't think they even understand the damage that that movement and that ideology is going to do to the Christian church, but that's gonna sweep along a lot of people and that's gonna reveal a lot of people for what they really are as well.

Yeah, and I agree with that. As I said in our Apologetics Live a little bit ago, Andrew, the Bible does not paint a pretty picture of the spiritual climate as time goes forward. And all apologies to our post-millennial friends out there, things aren't gonna get better.

They're gonna get worse. Evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse, Paul says in 2 Timothy 3. So things aren't gonna get better. And I think there is gonna be a tsunami of apostasy and we're gonna see some big names fall and apostatize.

Now with this Marty Sampson guy, in all fairness, let's realize he comes out of Hillsong. So I don't know if that guy even had enough knowledge to apostatize. I mean, Hillsong is a false church and they preach a false gospel, watered down gospel.

I'm not sure this guy, I mean, even when you read a statement, his statement about leaving the faith is, he says, in fact, I'm gonna quote it here. He says, how many preachers fall? Many, but no one talks about it.

How many miracles happen? Not many, no one talks about it. Oh, I talk about it. Why is the Bible full of contradictions? No one talks about it. How can, get this, how can God be loved yet send 4 billion people to a place all cause they don't believe?

No one talks about it. Well, no one talks about it at Hillsong maybe, but all of us talk about it. I mean, this guy comes from such a shallow theological pool that I don't even know if the fella had enough knowledge to officially apostatize or not.

And Justin, that's what makes his apostasies markedly different than Joshua Harris's. Coming out of Hillsong, you couldn't find a gospel at Hillsong if you had Indiana Jones helping you look for it. And you compare that to Joshua Harris, who was immersed in sovereign grace theology and notable lights in that movement who are very doctrinally rich.

C .J. Mahaney and Bob Coughlin and those guys are very doctrinally rich compared to Hillsong. And so Joshua Harris's apostasy, it stings in a way that this other Marty Samson guy does not simply because he's so close to us theologically or at least professed to be.

And I think the thing that we're gonna see is there are gonna be people who are hypocrites, who are pastors in churches that are gonna see there's money to be made in coming out of the closet, shall we say.

But they're gonna see money to be made, they're gonna see a bigger platform. And I predict that we're gonna see a lot of people that are gonna follow suit on this because they're gonna see not only ways to make money, not only ways to build a platform, but they now have the excuse to say, well, we're following Joshua Harris, to be able to kind of have the way of coming out and not having to deal with some of the shadows and shame, like he's kind of taking that and because he's making a path, I think others are gonna follow because they're fed up of the hypocrisy of what they're doing.

And I think though, part of this struggle I have is the more we talk about these guys, it is important to call them out, to warn people, but doesn't that help give them a platform and builds their platform that is an anti-Christian platform now?

It does and I understand that and I agree with that to an extent, but I would say what we're doing here and others that are talking about it in our theological circles, let's face it, we're small potatoes compared to the other media venues that will give them a much, much larger platform than any of us ever could in our wildest dreams.

But I will say as tragic as this is, if there is a silver lining to this, the upside and not to make light of the danger, this eternal danger Josh Harris is in, but the upside to this is that as time goes on and as we do see a tsunami of apostasy and as persecution does come to the West and it is and it will increase, you know what, it's gonna get easier and easier to tell the real Christians.

It's not been easy up until now, especially from the South where I come from, everybody claims to be a Christian, but I'll tell you what, as it becomes, as the cost increases for following Christ, it's gonna be easier to tell the true sheep from the goats.

Now see, that's an advantage that New Jersey has. We gotta look for some advantage New Jersey has over you guys. We don't have a problem telling the believers because nobody wants to admit to being a believer in New Jersey unless they really are.

Yeah, right, and California's the same way, the Pacific Northwest is much the same way and it's just gonna get clearer and clearer.

I mean, you guys can carry guns, but we know who the Christians are.

Andrew, your statement, you mentioned a couple of times about giving him a platform. I don't think that what you're doing is giving him a platform in the same sense that USA Today or Good Morning America or any of these other outlets who might have him on is going to be giving him.