Worldwide Ministry Trips/Psalm 33 and Molinism/Peter Lumpkins, Tim Rogers and Ergun Caner

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:05

And welcome to The Dividing Line, James White along with you on a

00:34

Thursday afternoon. Much to get to today. Want to start off with some exciting news in regards to what's coming up this fall, coming at us very, very, very quickly.

00:46

And so I need to bring these items to your attention because we certainly need the assistance of others to be able to make this happen.

00:56

Last year, I had two tremendous opportunities. As you know, we went to South Africa for the first time and had a very, very busy time in South Africa, to be sure.

01:10

And very fruitful and obviously made connections there that we've wanted to follow up on.

01:18

And we want to follow up on those. And then of course, actually it was early this year that I landed in Kiev right as the

01:28

State Department put out a warning to not go to Kiev. But that's when we were there and I taught church history while I was there, taught a seminar on grief.

01:40

My little book on grieving has now been translated into Russian by my good brother, Nick. And in fact,

01:48

I just got an indication last week, I think, that there is a

01:53

Czech translation of the grieving book being done. And I would assume that that's probably due to what

02:01

Nick did in translating the grieving book into Russian. But in any case, preached, taught grieving, did church history, got out in one piece, actually drove by Maidan, the

02:15

Independence Square, and had dinner at a restaurant about 600 yards away, which was quite interesting.

02:22

But anyway, obviously things have been very difficult there in Ukraine since I left.

02:28

And for those wondering, had nothing to do with my leaving, just a lot of people like to accuse me of being responsible for pretty much all the evil in the world.

02:36

Anyway, right now we are looking at two overseas trips.

02:45

And what we always do is while sometimes some of the funding is provided by those who bring you over, especially to teach, we obviously try to build other things in.

02:57

I've already talked to Justin Brierley about going through London. I'm actually going to contact, it's been a long time since I've been in Scotland.

03:07

And I would like to look into some possibilities because there are some

03:14

Muslim apologists in Scotland. I've wanted to have the opportunity of debating in my ancestral homeland, you know.

03:26

And so I would like to see if there might be some possibility, Glasgow, Edinburgh, something like that maybe.

03:35

We'll look into that. But if not, obviously going through London again, Justin is always very, very good at arranging programs and putting things together.

03:45

And so obviously overseas travel is very expensive when you're talking about airline flights and all the associated travel costs that come together in that way.

04:02

And so I will be putting a, well, is there a link in the store?

04:10

I'm not sure if there is. And as soon as I asked that question, Rich got busy with something else.

04:16

So is there a link in the store? No. Okay. So we'll need to activate that in regards to having the opportunity to donate to the

04:29

International Travel Fund, which just basically makes it possible for us to do these things and do the debates and the programs and try to build in the other things on the way.

04:42

So if I'm going to be gone for such a long time, you get the most out of it as far as number of subjects and things like that.

04:50

So I want to let you know, those would be in early October, end of September, early October for the trip to South Africa.

04:57

Right now, we're looking at Joburg again and then Durban and going out to Potsdam to Northwest University.

05:07

I want to get a chance to lecture there again and things like that. But also looking at debating with Yusuf Ismail in Durban, which is where he's based.

05:19

He's located there rather than making him do the travel. Don't have topics yet because one of the things we really want to do is to be much more focused in the subjects that we're debating in the sense of looking at specific texts, both in the

05:33

Quran and the Bible, and trying to add some depth to the debate topics that are taking place between Christians and Muslims around the world.

05:46

We certainly want to be a part of doing that. So that would be early October and then the trip to Kiev is basically the first two full weeks of December.

06:02

Teaching two different classes, one on the Trinity and one on justification.

06:10

So Trinity and soteriology, vitally important things and when you get an opportunity to really ground pastors in that country, in that nation, in those topics, you're really having a long -term impact.

06:24

And of course, I'd be preaching as well there during that period of time as well. So those are the two big opportunities coming up.

06:33

We let you know about these things because there are people all around the world, we discover, who want to be a part of what we're doing and so I let you know about those things.

06:44

They are exciting to me, a lot of work, a lot of work. Especially if we do unbelievable programs, we do debates, then

06:54

I've got the classes to prepare for, the debates to prepare for. It's a lot of work, but I'm willing to do it if you're willing to send me.

07:04

So I would really appreciate a strong response from God's people as an encouragement that yes, you need to be taking this information to others and providing it to them.

07:16

So that is what's coming up this fall, other than other traveling,

07:22

I mean, I'm going to be at the G3 conference in January of next year. My understanding,

07:27

I think this will be the first time, this is in Atlanta, I think this will be the first time that I will be at a conference with Paul Washer.

07:34

I know Vody's going to be there, which means we don't have to worry about security.

07:43

Anyway, and you've got the super heavyweight jujitsu champion of the world as one of the speakers, it's sort of like,

07:53

I don't have to worry about too much there. I'm not much for that anymore. I sort of looked that way back between, you know, 2000 and 2005 or so, you know, sort of looked, had the

08:05

Jesse Ventura thing going, not anymore. He he's a long distance cyclist and runner, but he can get away quick.

08:15

But other than that, he could outlast me. But you know, anyway, so we've got other things like that going on.

08:21

But those are some some of the big things taking place. I would like to spend a few minutes on the program today, and we will probably be going jumbo today.

08:31

So I'm not going to hurry too much. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. Who knows? Maybe I'll get through everything really, really quickly.

08:38

I don't know. But I wanted to. Nah, hello. That's a completely different green shirt

08:44

I'm wearing now, isn't it? Everybody was complimenting. I was working on the contrast, but that little webcam can't really do that kind of color.

08:58

Well, and it couldn't do the red one either, could it? No, it couldn't. I've been getting some bright shirts. I've been getting some bright shirts recently.

09:05

And at my favorite, my favorite clothing store called

09:10

Target. When they have their sales, you know.

09:15

Oh, wow, man, that is that is. Yeah, there's a fundamental difference between those two, isn't there?

09:21

Actually, as I sit here and look, neither camera is really bringing out the full. Yeah, you know what? You're right.

09:27

You're right, because that's this is deeper than that. This is this pretty it's bright, but it's a deep green shirt, isn't it?

09:33

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, anyway, I don't have a lot of green stuff, so I got a green shirt.

09:39

So there you go. Well, let's have to work on that. Good luck trying to match those two cameras ain't going to happen.

09:44

Anyway, I wanted to talk a little bit on the program today before we get into the abject lunacy coming out of of the

09:57

Internet today in regards to. Well, there was I just realized

10:02

I have that up. There was so much stuff. I'm boy,

10:08

I hope I hope that is that is up in one of these spots here.

10:13

Let me actually let me look real quick. That's going to really bug me. But I actually

10:19

I just realized I don't think that I did. Oh, Brad, maybe somebody in channel can do this for me.

10:26

Yeah, that's what I need, because I the Lumpkins Rodgers stuff got me distracted and I thought

10:32

I had all this queued up. Um, let me ask someone in in channel, please, to get me the

10:41

URL to the Autry filing from last night that has the emails in it and specifically the the great question that is now going to be put on T -shirts and everything else.

10:58

It was, as I recall, it was docket number 67, appendix four, the emails that contain the the the soon to be infamous line, who is

11:15

Turretin fan? If someone could throw that into into the channel so I can have that up,

11:22

I would appreciate it, because for some reason I forgot to send the link over or it's it's sitting.

11:29

Well, it's sitting over on the on my on my computer in the other room. That's the problem. But I forgot to bring it up.

11:35

So I'd like to do that before we before we do that. I wanted to have a very serious time with you concerning something that has come up many, many times, but I want to talk about it specifically.

11:51

I think Squirrel is the first one to to strike here. Well, yeah, that's got that.

12:01

But at least I know what I'm looking for now. Was it Exhibit A or was it

12:07

Exhibit D? Let's see if it was Exhibit D.

12:13

Nope, ain't it? Exhibit C, maybe?

12:21

I'm gonna have to be looking through it. There it is. I found it. Thank you. We have it.

12:27

We have it queued up now. So we're doing good. Anyway, what I was saying was, can you tell this is live and we don't edit this?

12:34

Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people like about. We've talked about this many times before.

12:40

There is a vast difference between viewing the text of Scripture as something that is pliable in your hands and that you can then form to a particular structure, which is what we see in in a lot of theology and viewing

13:11

Scripture as the origin and source out of which you must be drawing your theology and forming your theology by what you are.

13:25

The term forced may not be the best term, but there is a sense in which it is the proper term because you are seeking to deal with all of Scripture, because you're seeking.

13:41

If you've ever read my little book that I wrote about Harold Camping back in the 2000s,

13:48

Dangerous Airwaves, I had, you know, it's pretty much an irrelevant book now, but I'm going to have to think about somehow taking the section

14:02

I did on exegesis and making that available in some way because I really think it was extremely important because I discussed the difference between what

14:12

Harold Camping did where he's using the Bible, he has his system, and then you go and you get verses and you put them in here and you sort of make it look like it's biblical that way.

14:25

That is not how you honor God and honor the

14:31

Word of God. In fact, that kind of exegesis, that kind of abuse of the text of Scripture is a gagging of God.

14:41

It's, to borrow Carson's title from his book, it's really the gagging of God because the only way to allow

14:49

Scripture to really be God speaking is to approach it with respect and to approach it with honesty and to say,

14:57

I want to know what Scripture is saying and I want to know what all of Scripture is saying. If you come to the text with the presupposition that there is no consistent message as people like Ergin Kanner and liberals do,

15:11

Ergin Kanner, I'm sorry, Bart Ehrman, wow, that's both started with an E, as Bart Ehrman does as an agnostic as liberals do, well, and obviously having listened to a lot of Ergin Kanner sermons, not exactly exegetical either, but that's another issue.

15:30

If you approach with the idea that there is no consistent message, then you are going to feel free to put authors at odds with one another, authors at odds with themselves, and you are going to still be left inserting yourself into the text only when you believe in Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura.

15:53

Are you going to do the kind of exegesis that is truly the only foundation upon which the depth of Christian theology can really be based?

16:03

That's why I don't believe and people are going to throw their hands up and, I can't believe it, but I don't find

16:11

Roman Catholic scholarship providing much in the way of exegesis. There's a reason why when

16:18

I did my first debate with a Muslim in 1999, as I recall, with Hamza Abdul -Malik, that there were little old ladies, little old

16:29

Catholic ladies sitting in the front row because they knew this isn't the kind of stuff that we're going to get from Roman Catholics.

16:37

This is why Mormons do not provide any kind of meaningful exegetical material either because they don't have the foundation for doing it.

16:46

They don't have the view within their understanding of scripture to be able to exegete it in a meaningful and consistent way.

16:58

The high doctrines of Christianity are based upon exegeting the text of scripture in light of Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura.

17:07

So, with that in mind, I would like to spend a few moments,

17:13

Algo just said, Dave Armstrong on line one and he's mad too. Notice he didn't actually say he's mad too, but I'm able to translate things like that fairly quickly.

17:23

Skilled IRC user for many, many decades now. Actually, second decade.

17:31

Started IRC in 1996, so we're coming up on 20 years worth of that. Anyway, Psalm 33.

17:37

Let me use Psalm 33 as an illustration. I spoke on Psalm 33 last evening at church and that's where this came into thinking.

17:46

Unfortunately, I didn't have time last evening to say some of the things that I wanted to say in the

17:53

Bible study at PRBC. Psalm 33 is one of my favorite Psalms.

17:59

I really fell in love with it in seminary, in Hebrew class, translating it and working through it.

18:09

But the text itself, what I would like to do is just look at some of the sections in Psalm 33 in light of the discussion of Molinism.

18:23

You go, well, aren't you sort of violating your own rule there?

18:28

You're looking at an external authority. Well, just as an illustration of how

18:36

Molinism is not derived from the text of scripture,

18:43

Molinism is forced into the text of scripture. Those who are

18:48

Molinists will say, well, here's a possible example of middle knowledge and it's possible this over there.

18:55

But you see, there's a vast difference between saying, well, I can take my system and I can find a verse here and I can find a verse there, where it seems to be consistent with this.

19:06

There's a vast difference between that and saying this belief comes from the text of scripture.

19:17

It is the consistent witness of the scripture. And I'm not saying that the authors of scripture had to have

19:27

Molina's specific formulation in mind for it to be consistently biblical.

19:35

Or I'm not saying that they had to use the very words of Molina or something like that. I'm not saying that.

19:40

What I am saying is the entire concept of Molinism is clearly not the view of the inspired writers of scripture.

19:56

They were not trying to communicate the concept of Molinism. They did not function upon the basic fundamental view of God that Molinism and middle knowledge presents.

20:09

This is an external system that people try to make look biblical by drawing certain verses into it, but no one going to the text of scripture and deriving their beliefs from the consistent witness of a pan -canonical exegesis of what the

20:28

Bible teaches about God would ever come up with Molinism. And nobody did. Molina didn't get it from the

20:34

Bible. He never claimed to get it from the Bible. He didn't say, well, and how could he?

20:41

He was a Jesuit. They don't need to get things from the Bible. The whole idea of Sola Scriptura and Tota Scriptura was the very thing that he was arguing and fighting against in the first place.

20:52

And so I was really thinking about this as I was listening to Keithley's book on Sin and Salvation and the failure on Keithley's part to really provide a meaningful defense of Molinism along these lines, but that's because it was never designed to be defended in this way.

21:12

And it still strikes me as humorous, if it was not sad, that so many non -Roman

21:20

Catholics would be buying into this system, which was initially designed to allow for a mechanism to fight the

21:29

Reformation. That's what it really was all about. Um, anyway, uh, let's look at Psalm 33 and light of, again, what we've talked about before.

21:41

And that is that in Molinism, you have these true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom.

21:49

These, these counterfactuals that exist outside of God's decree, they circumscribe

22:00

God's actions because they are the basis of that middle knowledge that informs

22:05

God as to which worlds, which universes, um, he can bring into existence feasibly in light of the actions of free creatures, given this overriding commitment to libertarian free will.

22:24

And in light of the exercise of libertarian free will, um, there are only a certain number of, of feasible worlds.

22:34

And then you get into all the discussion of, well, what are, what are the, um, the standards by which

22:40

God judges as to what's going to be the best world, you know, the, the maximum number of people saved, uh, the minimum number of people damned, uh, you know, what, what's the standard.

22:53

And of course you can't, as a Christian, you can't go to the Bible to discover these things because the Bible isn't talking about any of these things.

22:59

It's not a part of divine revelation. Uh, it has to become a, a, a complete, um, speculation, uh, based upon, uh, overriding principles or whatever else it might be.

23:13

But in light of that, the reality that what

23:20

I would do, I'll use myself, uh, what I would do in certain circumstances is not due to the way

23:30

God made me because see the way God made me. That's, that's, that's the creation.

23:36

That's the decree of God. That's his choice. Now this, this of course, to me is one of the most fundamental flaws of Molinism is that it's so painfully obvious to me that I do what

23:52

I do because I am who I am. It's almost like there is this disembodied entity of James White that can exist in the middle knowledge of God as to what

24:07

James White will always do. And then it becomes embodied in me. And then God's decree can, uh, provide my, you know, who

24:16

I, how tall I'm going to be and what my body's capable of doing and not capable of doing and what my intellectual level is going to be and, and what my health is going to be through the course of my life.

24:27

Think about it for just a second. How is, is it not just a given of biblical truth that the decisions that I make, the actions that I undertake, they're all intimately connected with who

24:41

I am as the result of God's decree. I mean, I'm five, nine and a half.

24:48

I'm not going to be an NBA player. Okay. So was

24:54

God's middle knowledge of what I would do before God's decree that I'd be five, nine and a half.

25:04

And I am the sum total of, of all of my experiences in life.

25:12

And so many of my experiences are due to how God made me, what gifts he gave me, what context he put me in, how

25:20

I interact with people around me. And, and, and all of that has to be a part of God's free choice and creation, not just the actualization of a world, but his decree as to who

25:35

I'm going to be on an, on an anthropological level, from a biblical perspective,

25:41

Molinism is just beyond belief. Um, which may be why a lot of the

25:48

Molinists that I know, philosophically speaking, aren't real strong on biblical, biblical anthropology either.

25:56

But anyway, let's look at Psalm 33. Let's get, let's get to it. Psalm 33, six, by the word of the

26:03

Lord, by I'm going to be consistent with myself here by the word of Yahweh. Um, I, I did this last evening, but you know, there's, there's

26:12

Tetragrammaton Yahweh, uh, by the word of Yahweh, the heavens were made and by the breath of his mouth, all their host, he gathers the waters of the sea as a heap.

26:25

He puts the deeps in the storehouses. So, um, here is the creative action of God.

26:34

This is intimately personal on God's point, on God's part, notice by the breath of his mouth, all their host.

26:42

And so there is the speaking of God. You already saw that in the word of Yahweh, the heavens were made.

26:50

God spoke and it came into existence. So this is the, the, the divine decree coming into reality.

26:56

He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap. He puts the deeps in the storehouses. So the very form of the creation itself is the result of God's work.

27:09

Let all the earth fear Yahweh, let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him for he spoke and it came to be, he commanded and it stood firm.

27:16

So again, this, one of the great, you need to understand one of the things that would have been so, uh, startling the people of the world of that day is the fact this is not how the gods of the peoples, the idols function.

27:36

They did not simply speak and things came into existence. The, uh, there was either preexisting matter or you cut gods in half and out of this half, the

27:45

God, this part comes out and this part of the heavens come out and this part of the earth comes out and all the rest of this stuff.

27:50

But the idea of the monotheism that is inherent in these words and the transcendence and the use of the, and in fact, by the way, uh, notice verse nine for, he spoke and it came to be, he commanded and it stood firm speaking word, the breath of his mouth.

28:11

Um, this is, this is all wrapped up in, in Lagos. This is all, this is very important in seeing the development during the intertestamental period of the, of the

28:23

Lagos concept that John then draws from, not from the

28:28

Greek philosophical perspective primarily, but from the Jewish contemplation of texts such as this, where you have the breath of God, the speech of God.

28:38

He spoke and it came to be, he commanded and it stood firm. Uh, this is, this is a, a deep, um, and consistent concept in the old

28:49

Testament text that, uh, then comes to fruition in, in what the new

28:54

Testament says about Christ. The Lord Yahweh brings the council of the nations to nothing.

29:02

He frustrates the plans of the peoples then contrast verse 10 with verse 11.

29:08

The council of Yahweh stands forever the plans of his heart to all generations. So this is, uh, really what caught me in, in seminary is this strong contrast and the active providential sovereignty, the kingly freedom of Yahweh that is presented here.

29:29

Uh, Yahweh brings to count, brings the council of the nations to nothing. So all the nations can counsel together that the

29:37

United Nations can pass their resolutions. Um, but Yahweh brings their counsel and nothing.

29:43

If it is, if it is not in line with his sovereign decree, then it's brought to nothing.

29:49

He frustrates the plans of the people, but the council of Yahweh stands forever the plans of his heart to all generations.

29:59

So that a specific contrast is being, is being drawn here.

30:04

Cause you'll, you'll notice, uh, you've got the council, uh, Yahweh does this in verse 10 in regards to the people, uh, the, the thoughts of the peoples.

30:19

He frustrates those, but then his thoughts, his council is firm. And then the same contrast is brought about, uh, in regards to the plans of the people and the plans of his heart.

30:33

So you have specific parallelism in the text itself and Yahweh frustrates the councils of the people, frustrates the plans of the people, but no one can frustrate the council of Yahweh.

30:50

It stands forever the plans of his heart to all generations. Um, the idea of libertarian free will is right there in the text and it's

31:06

God in all things, all things, not just, it seems to me that Yahweh's libertarian free will in Molinism is limited to choosing to actuate a world or not.

31:27

That's it. That's it. Because what happens in that world, it may involve his providential, um, activity in regards to tsunamis, earthquakes, natural events, but there are simply worlds where it is not feasible for Yahweh to be sovereign over all the actions of men because the interactions just don't work out to what he would like to have at the, as the end result.

31:55

I don't think that's what the Psalmist was thinking. Um, the

32:00

Psalmist is clearly contrasting Yahweh's ultimate freedom as king to bring about his end.

32:12

And this includes, this is not just in some general sense, but notice what it goes on to say.

32:18

Uh, we have what I, what I call the KOL verse, uh, which, uh, Rich will remember the

32:24

KOL verse, blessed as a nation who's God is the Lord. We actually had a television station in Phoenix for years that at the top of the hour when they'd give the call letters and the station identification, which they don't have to do anymore.

32:36

Um, it said blessed as a nation who's God's Lord, KOL TV, channel 10 Phoenix, uh, which is now

32:42

Fox, which has all sorts of perversion on it. So things have gone South, but, um, blessed as a nation whose

32:47

God is Yahweh, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage. Notice the application Yahweh looks down from heaven.

32:54

He sees all the children of man from where he sits in throne. He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth.

33:03

Now that would, could almost be taken at that point as a passive, uh, taking it of knowledge, maybe, uh, as a passive observation.

33:13

Oh, I wonder what these folks are doing, but that's not what it says because it says he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their, all their deeds.

33:25

Wait a minute. He who does what, what, what does he do? He who fashions the hearts of them all.

33:36

There is absolutely no question that the heart of man is in biblical anthropology in the language of the old and new

33:50

Testament. It is out of the, the heart flow, the issues of life. It is the central seat of man.

33:58

And for anyone to suggest that man could act in such a way as the heart is not determinative of his actions is biblically absurd.

34:13

And yet the Bible says he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds fashions their heart.

34:23

That's the creative decree of God. That's the action of God in creation, which is after middle knowledge.

34:31

How could God fashion my heart? If it is a part of the true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom, what

34:42

I would do in any given situation and God's decree does not determine that it just is, there is no truth maker.

34:52

It, that's just the way that it is. And yet I say to you for on any biblical basis, what

35:01

I do is determined by my heart and it's fashioned by God as a part of his decree, right?

35:10

Someone want to say where that's wrong? Biblically, not philosophically. Don't give me your philosophical claptrap.

35:17

I'm not interested in it. Give it to me biblically. Did he fashion my heart or not?

35:22

Is that out of, is that not where the very essence of who I am flows?

35:31

The King is not saved by his great army. A warrior is not delivered by his great strength. The war horse is a false hope for salvation.

35:38

And by its great might, it cannot rescue. Behold, the eye of Yahweh is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his steadfast love.

35:45

They may deliver their soul from death and keep them alive in famine. Our soul waits for Yahweh.

35:51

He is our help and our shield for our heart is glad in him because we trust in his holy name. This becomes very specific and very personal.

35:59

The point is this, Yahweh knows me because Yahweh formed me.

36:06

And that's all said within the context of what? Oh, well, you know, the war horse, what does that do anything?

36:13

It has to do with providence. It has to do with the specific actions of man.

36:22

It's not just this general providence where God gets to have control of tsunamis, but he can't do anything about the soldier in the field.

36:29

He can't do anything about the King. And we all know that while Kings are important, the entire destiny of nations has often turned the actions of individuals in a battle, individuals in so many other different contexts like that.

36:42

And the point is this providence is personal, intimate with every single individual in God's created world.

36:50

So the point is when you look at Psalm 33 and you let it speak and you let it inform us as our ultimate authority as to the relationship of God and his creation, not only is there nothing in there that would even begin to suggest the concept of Molinism.

37:12

And I can just hear all the philosophers going, well, you know, it's just an old Psalm, you know? Yeah. I really do seem to see a fundamental degradation in the view of scripture and a lot of people that are philosophically minded primarily really do.

37:28

And I think you can find it in their books. You can find their books. But the reality is that if you're drawing your belief from the text, you want

37:39

God to speak from the text. This is not only never going to suggest Molinism to you, and it's going to raise all sorts of reasons why you'd go,

37:47

I don't know why I'd want to be one. There's objective material there that would just make you go, hmm, that philosophical system does not seem to be biblical.

38:02

Because it's not. Because it's not. Well, there you go. There's much more that can be said about that.

38:08

I think if you keep that in mind and you go through what the psalmist says in so many other texts about the intimate knowledge of God, which is based upon his creatorship, you're going to have a real hard time with this idea that there are true counterfactuals of creaturely freedom that have no truth maker, that just are.

38:31

In fact, well, we'll get into more of the many, many, many, many reasons why a biblical

38:38

Christian wants to reject Molinism in the future, because there are many, many of them.

38:46

All right, let's transition from that discussion of biblical truth to hopefully other discussions of biblical truth as well.

38:58

I don't want to say that we're transitioning away from that, but amazing developments over the course of the past 24 hours.

39:13

Let's try to bring up speed if you're not up to speed on this. As you know, the, and by the way,

39:21

I didn't get a chance and I don't, I don't see Jason in channel right now, but maybe he might listen or something like that.

39:31

But if, if he does pop into channel, if you could let me know that, cause I would like to ask a question of him.

39:42

Specifically, those of you who are not aware of this, Ergen Kanner engaged in sin and suing two gentlemen.

39:56

It started off as a single lawsuit. It was split into two lawsuits and he lost both of those lawsuits.

40:04

What's happening now is on the various legal websites where legal documents are stored.

40:15

Interesting material is coming out on Tuesday, July 9th of 2013 at 4 58

40:24

PM. There was, well, this is, this is when

40:33

Josh Autry responded. Let me see when the original was sent. Here it is on Monday.

40:39

Let me get this right here on Monday, July 8th, 2013 at 2 25 PM. Teresa Nelson of gibbsfirm .com.

40:50

This is David Gibbs law firm representing Ergen Michael Kanner wrote to Josh Autry.

41:05

And uh, certain questions here is, uh, here is actually, uh, here's the first email.

41:15

I'm going backwards on the emails here because they're, you know how emails are the first ones out of the bottom. Monday, July 8th, 2013, 12, 20

41:22

PM to Josh Autry subject Kanner versus Autry. Hi Josh. Pleasure speaking with you today. As I mentioned,

41:27

Mr. Kanner would like some questions answered. I have set them forth below. Now notice this is represented as being

41:33

Kanner asking these questions. If your brother is willing to answer them, can you please provide me with the responses by Thursday latest?

41:40

If he will not answer, would you please let me know as soon as possible so that I can pass that on. In the meantime, I'll be drafting the agreement.

41:46

So evidently this was in the period of time where they were trying to settle this, uh, and to drop this lawsuit.

41:53

And here were the questions that Kanner asks. Now remember what's this lawsuit ostensibly about? Ostensibly it's about copywriting a pack of lies.

42:04

So it is a pack of lies. We've played the Marine videos.

42:10

They are embarrassing. Um, they are filled with lies and we've documented this and they are filled with embarrassing behavior on Kanner's part, but allegedly it's about copywriting lies.

42:33

And, uh, but the whole thing is supposed to be about, oh, you've, you've violated my copyright. Copyright didn't actually have, of course, and still doesn't as far as I know.

42:44

But, uh, what Autry is doing in the material that's being, uh, submitted to court is demonstrating this was a frivolous lawsuit that Kanner was not, um, uh, was not being serious, abused the court's time and therefore should be liable for all legal fees, which of course, if there's any, uh, justice in the world is exactly what's going to happen.

43:08

But notice the questions, the questions that were asked by Teresa Nelson, uh, representing, uh, the law firm of David Gibbs, uh, that were, these are, these are the things that Kanner wants to know.

43:23

Number one, who at Liberty knew you were doing this? What does that have to do with copyright? Number two, how often did you upload from LU and the

43:32

LU server? Number three, who is Kanner Repents?

43:39

Kanner Repents is a Twitter handle. Uh, number four, how coordinated has this been under FBC Jack's watchdog

43:51

Twitter handle and James White? Hi, that's that's me.

43:58

So evidently, uh, what do I have to do? Dr. Kanner with copyright issues about someone?

44:07

I didn't even know his name. Hmm. Just wondering, just one sounds like all this doesn't have anything to do with copyright at all.

44:13

It has to do with Kanner's enemies. Number five, on your blog, you state an

44:21

LU high official told you that Kanner quote, privately repented at Thomas road Baptist church end quote, but he was afraid to do so publicly because of the bloggers.

44:30

Kanner would like the name of this quote, high official end quote. If a name is not provided, please then please publicly state the statement was not made truthfully.

44:38

I remember this is all stuff that the idea is if you'll cooperate and give us this information, then we'll, we'll drop this so much for copyright stuff.

44:49

Number six, who was and is your immediate supervisor at LU? Number seven, you mentioned on your blog that you had help.

44:57

Who else at LU worked with you on these matters? Number eight, who is

45:03

Turretin fan? Number nine, are you willing to turn over all correspondence between yourself,

45:11

Mr. James White, FBC, Jack's watchdog, Jason Smathers. And I love this and all other cyber stalkers.

45:20

Thanks, Teresa M. Nelson, associate attorney, Gibbs law firm. Uh, and again, the date on this is

45:27

July 8th, 2013. Says a lot, doesn't it?

45:35

About what Kanner was really up to. Says a lot about what his real motivations were. Had nothing to do with copyright.

45:43

He knew what he did in front of the Marines was a pack of lies. He knew he didn't have a copyright on it.

45:50

He well knew all this stuff. As we've said from the beginning, the process was a punishment.

45:56

So this is all about you get yourself an attorney who's willing to, um, behave in this fashion.

46:04

And then you go after folks. That's what it was all about. Who's Turretin fan?

46:10

I want to expose him. Who's Kanner repents? How much involved in all this as James White fan?

46:18

It's all about critics. And I really hope, I really hope that the judge reads all this and hence realizes, but this is about from the beginning.

46:30

It was about from the beginning. And so in the response was interesting.

46:37

Uh, the response provided, uh, from Jonathan Autry, um, for example, who is

46:45

Kanner repents? I do not know. Um, how coordinated has this been while there have been exchanges of communication?

46:54

I have been independent. I am the sole creator of my projects with no direct assistance with only a handful of exceptions.

47:00

There have has been almost no feedback on my video productions. Um, let's see here.

47:08

Um, who is Turretin fan? I do not know.

47:14

That's right. He doesn't. I love it. Um, are you willing to turn over all correspondence between yourself and James White, FEC, Jax Watchdog, Jason Smathers, and all, all other cyber stalkers?

47:27

No, I did not turn over private correspondence. You already have all my public correspondence was the response that was, uh, that was given.

47:35

Um, so now there seems to be some confusion, uh, out there.

47:46

What I would like to know is has, uh, Jonathan Autry filed a separate lawsuit against Ergon Kanner.

47:54

Now I have, I'm not heard of that. Uh, Tim Rogers thinks he has, but I'm starting to think,

48:00

I really think that what Tim Rogers is confusing is the, um, uh, payment phase of the already completed lawsuit as if it's another lawsuit.

48:08

I don't know. I'd like to know. Um, that's what I was wondering if Jason came in, what, uh, what this would all be about.

48:16

Now, the first person yesterday that came out last night, uh, yesterday, good old lumpy, uh, came out of hiding.

48:28

Well, at least decide to start addressing some of these issues. And he, uh, of course his topic is his topic line here is contorting words, gaining support on resolution against lawsuits.

48:46

There, a resolution has been submitted to the resolution committee of the Southern Baptist convention on the subject of Christians going to the court of law against other

48:58

Christians. And it's a very straightforward statement that basically says we ought to take seriously what the apostle

49:10

Paul said in first Corinthians chapter six. Now it's interesting.

49:17

First Corinthians six, nine through 11, which is one of the key texts in the fight to maintain biblical integrity in regards to homosexuality comes right on the heels of this section that says, you don't go to before unbelievers court of law.

49:45

When you have a dispute with another believer, you don't do this. It is forbidden.

49:50

You apostolic authority. It's scriptural. It's right there. So it's a, it's a tremendous illustration of the inconsistency of certain people that you would,

50:06

I would assume that Eric and Cantor holds a consistent conservative view of the subject of homosexuality.

50:17

I would assume that he would agree that in first Corinthians chapter six, we have a reference to homosexuality that, that, uh, uh,

50:28

Malakoi and Arsena Koytai in the text there has to do with the, um, with the, uh, passive and active members of a homosexual, sexual encounter and relationship.

50:46

I would assume that he would agree that this text remains relevant today.

50:53

So how can you say that versus nine and following are relevant when you ignored what came before it, when you ignore what's right in the immediate context, how do you do that?

51:06

I don't know. I have not seen any attempt on the part of Eric and Cantor to provide a exegesis and I would expect he never would attempt to do this.

51:20

Maybe, uh, Lumpkin's amazing article is what is the attempt to do that is the attempt to say, well, you know, we don't know about this.

51:35

We don't know about that. The reality is that Eric and Cantor filed lawsuits against a practicing non excommunicated, not under discipline pastor of a

51:54

Southern Baptist church. I don't know what Jonathan Autry's situation is, but I've never heard any information that he was under discipline from his church.

52:04

And so if you have someone who makes profession of faith and you have someone who is a member of a church in good standing, that should be enough.

52:15

Unless you're going to say that those churches themselves are not true Christian churches.

52:21

And then it would be incumbent upon you to, uh, provide some kind of foundation for that.

52:29

Um, if they've become a member of, um, a cult, they've joined the

52:37

Jehovah's Witnesses or something. Okay. But in this situation,

52:44

Cantor knowingly purposefully with malice aforethought, uh, engaged in frivolous lawsuit action against individuals who were members in good standing of Baptist churches and Cantor himself at least was at the time a

53:04

Baptist and is now the president of a Southern Baptist college, I think.

53:10

Right. Okay. So Lumpy, uh, decides to, as Lumpy always does, uh, start throwing some sand in the air, letting off some smoke bombs, try to distract from the simplicity of the resolution.

53:31

Um, and because everybody knows that if it's passed, then it's a slap in the face of Eric and Cantor, who is an unrepentant lawsuiter.

53:41

Well, we'll turn it into, uh, some sort of, uh, active, substantival participle, the lawsuiter.

53:48

Anyway, Lumpy says, my main grievance obviously has nothing to do with presenting a resolution, nor is it relevant that Lamprecht, speaking of Mark Lamprecht, is promoting resolution.

54:01

What is particularly relevant for my part is twofold. First, Lamprecht appears to be going to his, back to his old obsession with taking down Eric and Cantor.

54:11

So you see for the small, very tiny, very small little circle of Eric and Cantor defenders who are left, anybody who criticizes

54:23

Eric and Cantor is obsessed as we're going to see Tim Rogers has gotten into this. Uh, so if you're on the other side, you're obsessed.

54:31

We're not, nah, nah, nah, just cause Peter Lumpkins happens to, you know, now be working for Eric and Cantor.

54:40

Uh, his job is dependent upon Eric and Cantor. I don't know. He's perfectly, perfectly fair and unbiased.

54:48

It's everybody else that's obsessed. You see, uh, going back to his old obsession with taking down Eric and Cantor.

54:56

So if you call for repentance on someone's part, call someone to be honest, you're taking them down.

55:02

Not only do two of his footnotes recall his public record disdain he's had, he's had for Cantor over the last few years, a disdain concerning, uh, which

55:11

I'm under the impression he's what he supposedly was sorrowful. He leaves readers in the dark as to exactly who

55:17

Tom Buck is. I mean, nobody has Google. Google only works.

55:25

Well, of course everybody has Google. Uh, Buck's church, strangely sponsored.

55:31

Now I, I love this language, strangely sponsored. How do you strangely sponsor something?

55:40

Um, Buck's church strangely sponsored James White's unprecedented seminar on Eric and Cantor.

55:46

You know what I didn't, where's my, uh, there it is. Uh, open link in new tab.

55:59

Another comment from Jerry Wells. Did you notice that?

56:05

Um, Oh, good job.

56:11

Lumpy. You're good. How long did it take you to find a way to do this? I hadn't even seen this. If you clink, clink the link, clink the link, if you click the link, it takes you to a

56:26

September 4th, 2013 article on our website. Another comment from Jerry Wells regarding James White.

56:33

So it gives you this quote from Jerry Walls on, you know, who's the

56:39

Arminian. And then below it says, I won't, this is me writing.

56:44

I won't bother with comments this time. You all know how I feel about internet comm boxes, but I'm thankful for the kind words. I'll have to reiterate tomorrow on the dividing line that part of my argument that Dr.

56:53

Walls followers anyway seem to be missing relating to the origins of the starting point of our, of our positions. I truly, we differ on what, uh, what we place in the first position as most important.

57:02

And this determines much of what comes thereafter in our arguments. But in a case, after spending a few moments, explaining our motivations for doing the arrogant canner seminar next

57:11

Tuesday night in Lindale, we'll move back into our response to walls. And then as we must spend that last half hour, if we must, uh, continuing our response to use of Ismail as well.

57:25

Why not link to the video, Peter? That would have been the logical thing to do.

57:32

Just link the video. Cause there you've got there. I am Tom bucks involved and, and I'm staying behind Tom bucks pulpit and we promoted it and the whole nine yards.

57:44

Why link to this for the same reason that you edited the audio and put something different on the screen when you were trying to make a point that really wasn't truthful.

57:57

I just wonder how much time does it, I cannot imagine the time that you have to invest, um, to do this kind of thing to try to find this, where you could actually link to something that is only slightly relevant, but everyone would expect that.

58:13

Well, why don't you just link to the video? It's out there. You know, it's out there. Well, the reason that he doesn't do that is because he doesn't want people watching that because that's his boss and the vast majority of that video.

58:28

Um, well notice what it says. A seminar from what I can tell is the first seminar a

58:35

Christian apologist has ever devoted to bring another Christian apologist down. Really?

58:41

Um, this was a seminar wherein I allowed, um,

58:47

Eric and Karen to speak for himself. Vast majority of it. That's what's so wonderful here is these guys know in their heart of hearts, they could never stand in front of me and debate this issue.

58:59

Aaron Cantor knows, Peter Lumpkin knows, Tim Rogers knows. They all know. They all know that if we had equal time, they would be blown out of the building because I wouldn't hardly even have to talk.

59:12

I could actually probably make up a presentation that was 20 % me talking and 8 %

59:19

Eric Cantor talking and it would be devastating. Devastating. Hear that or use the

59:26

Norman Geisler lie sheet and just put that up there. Put that on one side while Eric Cantor is speaking.

59:32

Devastating. Devastating. We could use the Marine videos too. Right? Yeah.

59:41

What was the agenda? Much of it was devoted to Cantor's lawsuits concerning what Cantor maintained was copyright breach.

59:47

That, Peter Lumpkins, is a lie and you know it. You know it. Don't tell me you haven't watched it.

59:57

Much of it was devoted. Much of it was Eric Cantor speaking for himself.

01:00:03

I may have mentioned in passing toward the end, the lawsuit against Jason Smathers, but to identify its agenda as being devoted to Cantor's lawsuits is a dishonest, easily refutable, by anyone who's watched it, lie by the vice president for communications of the

01:00:25

Bruton Parker College somewhere in the woods of Georgia. And you know it, Lumpy.

01:00:31

You know, if we ever run into each other on a plane, in an airport, anyplace else, you know that you're going to have to put your head down because you cannot defend this kind of absurdity and you know it.

01:00:45

You know it. What's it like to live this kind of life? I don't understand it.

01:00:51

I understand because I explained my motivations very plainly in the seminar and everybody there understood.

01:01:00

Everybody there understands that Eric Cantor, for nine years, went around pretending to what

01:01:09

I actually do. And I don't think, yeah, at the time

01:01:15

I did that one, we didn't know about the Southern Seminary appearance. That came after that. That's why it would be a longer a longer presentation today.

01:01:25

Because now we would be able to demonstrate beyond all question that Eric Cantor, between 2003 and 2007, at least three times that we have documented evidence of, claimed to have debated

01:01:39

Shabir Ali and quoted Shabir Ali. It makes his alleged apology from 2010 all the more disingenuous, all the more the lie that it always has been.

01:01:52

And now we've got further evidence because we can prove that in 2003, standing at Southern Seminary right next to Al Mohler, he claimed to have debated

01:02:01

Shabir Ali and quoted Shabir Ali. So he'd been doing it for years before the two in 2007 that we were operating on when we did that presentation.

01:02:12

And so everybody knows God is my witness and any honest person understands why

01:02:18

I've engaged in this. Because I know the people he claimed to have debated.

01:02:25

Every one of them. And I have to walk into mosques and actually do what he pretended to do and never did and couldn't ever do.

01:02:39

And you know it, Mr. Lumpkins. Shame on you. Shame on you for doing this.

01:02:45

Because you know it's dishonest. You know it's not true. So there's much more there in the

01:02:56

Lumpkins' attempt to deal with, and of course

01:03:01

I'm noted down below, as to the resolution per se, Lamprecht, Buck, White, and Smathers all appear to hold to some type of simplistic ethical template.

01:03:15

As to what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 6 about lawsuits amongst Christians. Mr. Lumpkins, would you like to debate this from the

01:03:22

Greek text? Dr. Lumpkins, would you like to? Yeah, I don't expect that.

01:03:30

Phone lines are open but I really don't expect old Petey to be calling in. Because we know that Petey knows.

01:03:37

He could never survive it. They claim

01:03:43

Christians should not dare take a grievance against a brother as if no litigation is morally possible or biblically justifiable between any professing believers.

01:03:52

Contrarily, not only was Paul primarily speaking of local church matters. Oh, so it's okay to sue a

01:04:01

Christian that's far away as long as he's not in your local church? Especially frivolously to cover up lies,

01:04:09

Mr. Lumpkins? Ms. Lumpkins, if you want to be even taken semi -seriously, let's see an article where you go through all the lies

01:04:19

Eric and Cantor told in the Marine video and explain them. How about the lie about his father having all those wives?

01:04:29

How about that? Want to start there? If you want to have a shred of credibility, then that should be your next article.

01:04:38

It won't be, and we both know it. We both know it. One of us is open and clear about these things.

01:04:45

One of us wouldn't understand openness, transparency, clarity, and honesty if his life depended on it.

01:04:56

Okay, so it says, let's be honest, is this not a convenient way to indict

01:05:04

Eric and Cantor and call him to repentance, which is what Lamprec, Buckwhite, Smathers all want to do and publicly say they want him to do and continue to harass him into doing while leaving guys like Smathers out of the equation?

01:05:18

Well, of course he wants to attack Jason for his past. Jason's been very open about these things.

01:05:24

That's why Jason's completely different than Eric and Cantor. Jason's honest and Cantor's not.

01:05:32

It is amazing the depths to which people go to defend someone who is so obviously dishonest, and yet that's now

01:05:42

Peter Lumpkin's job to do that, and I guess that's what all of this stuff is all about.

01:05:51

So anyway, with that, I am once again proven to be completely truth challenged rather than Peter, but there was a footnote.

01:06:06

There's a footnote next to the statement about Buck's church strangely sponsored, and the footnote reads like this.

01:06:16

Curiously, one won't find the seminar in the church's promotional material, which named White's main reason for going to Lindale First Baptist Church to give a presentation on Islam.

01:06:31

This was a special meeting that we had the night beforehand, which we did promote and which we did tell people about and would love to have had more people there to be perfectly honest with you, but our primary purpose was to live stream it and make it available.

01:06:49

If it was inaccurate, why haven't you responded to it? Why haven't you refuted it?

01:06:55

Because Mr. Lumpkins, you can't and you know it. You can't and you know it, and I'll be honest with you,

01:07:03

Peter. I really fear for someone's soul who will sell theirs to defend a lie, which is what you're doing, which is what you're doing.

01:07:13

You need to be called to repent now as well. Now, that would have been most of what we were talking about until this morning,

01:07:24

May 29th of 2014, Tim Rogers decided to get back into the ring.

01:07:34

Once again, what has brought him out has been the resolution issue.

01:07:46

I just want to focus upon one particular aspect of this.

01:07:53

First of all, Pastor Rogers is badly imbalanced.

01:08:00

He has demonstrated himself to be badly imbalanced many times. Specifically, once again,

01:08:09

Ergin Cantor's defenders are seeking to turn this into an issue relating to Calvinism.

01:08:32

The idea that this is a

01:08:40

Calvinist conspiracy to get Ergin Cantor has worked very well for weak -minded individuals, but only for weak -minded individuals, because it is so obviously fallacious.

01:08:54

It is so ridiculous on its face that you have to really want to believe this kind of a lie for it to get anywhere, but it has worked for some.

01:09:04

It has worked for some. There are some people who are so deranged in their fear of Reformed theology, normally based on gross ignorance, that it has been useful.

01:09:21

As the facts show, that is not the case at all.

01:09:28

I have documented this over and over again. Unfortunately, Pastor Rogers has decided to create an entire new history in this particular situation.

01:09:41

Let me find the section. Okay, I can hear the questions rattling around in your brain right now.

01:09:48

Okay, Tim, what does all this have to do with Calvinism? I am glad you asked. The apologist that Jonathan Autry uploaded is

01:09:57

James White, a Reformed apologist from Phoenix, Arizona, whose theology has been described by some

01:10:03

Southern Baptist scholars as hyper -Calvinistic. It has. They would never defend that because they can't, because it is a lie, but there are

01:10:12

Southern Baptist scholars that are willing to lie about these issues and have been challenged many times on that.

01:10:20

You, Tim, you know you are utterly incapable of defending that assertion. You know that.

01:10:26

You know that. White is an apologist that was scheduled to debate Dr. Eric Cantor and his brother,

01:10:32

Dr. Ymir Cantor. White, along with Dr. Tom Askell, notice everyone gets their titles but me, were scheduling a debate with these two trying to work out the details.

01:10:45

The location of this debate would be Liberty University and the person working out the formatting of the debate would be the debate coach there at LU.

01:10:52

The debate would be video tapped, there's a lot of typos here, and copies sold.

01:10:58

James White found out that he would not be able to edit the recordings to sale for his profit and backed out of the debate.

01:11:04

From that time on, he has lodged complaint after complaint against Dr. Eric Cantor. It is as if he has an Eric Cantor hate

01:11:10

Jones. Jones is a slang expression used to describe an addiction. James White championed and led the way for the false allegation that Dr.

01:11:18

Eric Cantor was not a Muslim before his conversion to Christ, etc. etc. Three independent professional investigators, uh, private investigators reported back to the board of trustees and they cleared

01:11:28

Dr. Cantor of this charge. All right. There are so many lies there that I once again am left wondering at Pastor Roger's capacity to deal with truth and to even function as a

01:11:44

Christian minister. I truly am left without any way of even beginning to understand how he does that.

01:11:53

Let's, uh, let's talk about the facts here for a moment. Um, yes, there was a debate that was scheduled and the debate was scheduled the day, the time and everything.

01:12:09

And the Cantor's signed Dr. Emir Cantor specifically signed.

01:12:15

Now, Mr. Rogers, when I first contacted Eric Cantor in 2005, one of the first things he said to me is this private or public will our conversation with private or public.

01:12:28

And I said, it's public. As a result, every single bit of communication, every email, every document is posted on our website in PDF format.

01:12:42

We're the only ones that made that information available. We insisted upon it from the beginning. Only one side sought transparency.

01:12:49

The other side sought to do things behind closed doors. We were the side looking for transparency.

01:12:56

And so everything I'm going to say is completely documented, completely documented.

01:13:03

That's why I knew it had to be done that way. And it's interesting when

01:13:09

I first contacted Aaron Cantor in 2010 about his claims to having to having debated

01:13:15

Shabir Ali, his first words to me, is this public or private? So there are many pages.

01:13:24

It's a huge PDF file. It takes forever to read through. Some people have actually done it, but it's posted.

01:13:32

You obviously have not read it because the story you tell is pure mythology. It's pure mythology.

01:13:40

You made it up. Now, someone may have told it to you, but you made it up. Evidently, you didn't read the documents for yourself.

01:13:50

It says the debate would be videotaped and copies sold. That's true. We wanted to make sure that the entirety of the debate, that unedited masters would be provided to both sides.

01:14:03

That was part of the agreement. James White found out that he would not be able to edit the recordings to sale.

01:14:09

I imagine you mean to sell for his profit and backed out of the debate. That, sir, is a bald faced lie.

01:14:18

Bald faced lie. You either document it or you withdraw it.

01:14:26

You can't document it because the documentation is what we provided and ours is complete.

01:14:32

Every email. The fact of the matter is, Pastor Roger, is that 10 days before the debate, the man who was supposed to moderate the debate coach at LU decided to completely scrap the agreement that the canners had agreed to and signed their names to earlier.

01:14:51

10 days out, they decided to change everything. We had spent a great deal of time making sure there's going to be sufficient time because you have four people in debate and need to be a certain length.

01:15:01

There needed to be a certain amount of time for presentation. There needed to be a certain amount of interaction. We had gone through all of that stuff.

01:15:07

That's what had taken so much time and so much effort. And we had a signed agreement. They reneged on their signed agreement.

01:15:16

The debate coach decided to change everything and they knew we would not allow that to happen.

01:15:21

They knew that. We know who was behind the scuttling of this.

01:15:27

People at LU have gotten in touch with us since then. We know who ordered it. Higher authorities who

01:15:32

I think already knew were well aware of the fact that Kanner was a fraud, did not want this much light being cast upon him.

01:15:39

Because remember at this time in history, I had no earthly idea that Eric and Kanner was a fraud. I had no idea that his claims about doing all these debates and stuff.

01:15:48

Now he, I had asked. I wanted to watch some of his debates. I did find very strange. He couldn't provide any to me. But it was not until late 2009 that I saw any of Mohammed Khan's videos.

01:15:59

I did not know. So it is a lie, a bald -faced lie, a documented lie being promoted by Pastor Tim Rogers that we backed out, that I backed out of the debate because we would not be able to edit the recordings for sale.

01:16:22

That is a lie and you need to remove it and apologize for it or stand convicted of being a person who's willing to just simply lie through your teeth in public.

01:16:36

It's a big problem for you Pastor Rogers. We thought you were working on it. This shows you're not. It shows you're not.

01:16:44

It then says, from that time on he has lodged complaint after complaint against Dr. Eric and Kanner. Lie number two, documentable, documentable.

01:16:56

Prove it. Show me where I was focused upon lie after lie in regards to Eric and Kanner in the year 2007.

01:17:05

2007, that's the year after that. How about 2008?

01:17:12

My blog is available online. You can search it and there's a rather obvious reality.

01:17:19

Kanner fell off my radar screen. I didn't care what he was doing. So from that time, no.

01:17:29

It was not until late 2009 and then it was not until 2010 when I was sent documentation demonstrating that Eric and Kanner had claimed to have debated

01:17:39

Shabir Ali and when Eric and Kanner had attacked me on the

01:17:44

Calvary Chapel radio program. Who has an obsession with who? Pastor Rogers.

01:17:54

So it is as if he has an Eric and Kanner hate Jones. Actually, it's the other way around because while Eric and Kanner has been suing people and has been attacking me personally, you know what

01:18:05

I've been doing? I've been doing the stuff Eric and Kanner has lied about doing for nine years. And unlike Eric and Kanner, you can go on YouTube and watch my debates.

01:18:16

Facts are facts. Pastor Rogers, you're making up fantasy, pure fantasy.

01:18:23

Then it says James White championed and led the way for the false allegation that Dr. Eric and Kanner was not a

01:18:29

Muslim before his conversion to Christ. Prove it. Never said it. Never said it.

01:18:35

I've said over and over again, his father was a Muslim. There's no question that his father dragged him off to mosque.

01:18:42

He's ignorant of Islam on an abysmal level. And I've documented error after error, after error, after error on his part.

01:18:52

He was not the jihadi trained super Muslim he claimed to be. He doesn't even know that ulema is a plural form.

01:19:02

He confuses terms and all the time. I've documented all of that, but I've never said he was not a

01:19:09

Muslim. It's a lie. Third lie in a paragraph and a half. It's pretty good.

01:19:15

It's almost a Gail Ripplinger level. Good. So there's three lies,

01:19:21

Pastor Rogers. Withdrawn or stand convicted of being a bold -faced liar in the public realm.

01:19:27

Just that simple. Just that simple. That's what you need to do. The level of deception that is currently being demonstrated by the small cadre of Eric and Kanner defenders.

01:19:51

They are a minority group. There's no question about it. This any sober -minded, fair -minded, unbiased person that would simply examine the facts would never defend this man.

01:20:09

But sadly, what they have chosen to do, what this group has chosen to do is to hope that there are enough people in their churches who have deep and abiding fears of reform theology or just blatant bias and bigotry toward reform theology that they can utilize that as the means to avoid dealing with the facts, the documented, unquestionable, indisputable facts of Eric and Kanner's deception over the year.

01:20:49

That's their hope. I simply have to ask all of us to honestly ask the question, do

01:20:56

Christians behave like this? Do Christians twist the facts, twist the reality completely out of shape?

01:21:08

Do they engage in this type of political gamesmanship? Because that's what it is.

01:21:14

I mean, we're used to this in the political realm. We're used to the distraction and the smoke and the mirrors and the false act.

01:21:21

This is the standard stuff you get in politics, which is why most of us have absolutely zero respect for almost any politician that's out there.

01:21:31

I know I certainly am in that boat anymore. This is all politics.

01:21:38

What LU did was all politics. What Peter Lumpkin is doing is all politics. Tim Rogers just isn't up to really doing it overly well, but he's trying and is clearly in contact with Kanner, who is encouraging him to do these things.

01:21:54

But do Christians do this? Do they engage in this? I cannot imagine how you can look yourself in the mirror in the morning, either one of you, and those supporting them, the few that you be.

01:22:18

Pastor Rogers, some people have told me that you want to do what's right.

01:22:28

That article tells me otherwise. You're gonna have to prove to me that they have some idea what they're talking about.

01:22:38

Not only does that thing have to come down, but specific apologies for each one of those lies needs to be posted.

01:22:46

If that doesn't happen, proof positive. Proof positive. Because see,

01:22:52

I can just simply, here's PDF. I don't know how many. I forget how many pages it formatted out to once I looked.

01:22:59

It's huge. Massive. It's unbelievable. But we have been absolutely transparent on that issue from the start.

01:23:11

We put everything out there. We put everything out there. Did you just make this up on the fly?

01:23:21

I don't think that's, that doesn't seem like Tim Rogers to me. What seems like Tim Rogers is he's massively gullible, and he'll believe whatever he's told by someone he thinks is a great

01:23:36

Christian. So you know what I think we're hearing there? I think we're hearing what Eric Cantor told him. Now we know

01:23:42

Eric Cantor lied to the students at LU. We know that he's lied to all sorts of folks, but Eric Cantor is an inveterate liar.

01:23:49

He doesn't know how to tell the truth. And evidently Tim Rogers lacks the discernment to be able to see that.

01:23:58

And clearly did not exercise discernment in checking his facts because those

01:24:03

PDFs, I'll bet you Eric Cantor knows where they are. All of Eric Cantor's graduate aides knew where they were.

01:24:12

They're still posted there. And what we're going to have to do, what I'm going to have to do is repost the links when

01:24:18

I, when I put this up. Yeah, we can refresh that, put a link in there. You know, the thing that disturbs me deeply in reading this is

01:24:27

Tim's presentation. This is all about Calvinism. This is all about Calvinism.

01:24:32

As he winds his way through his story, the word repentance comes up as a dirty word.

01:24:40

This is a gotcha word. This is a, all the Calvinists want to, repentance means we want to drag him through the mud.

01:24:50

Right. And I don't understand how any, even an Arminian pastor can look at the word and the meaning of repentance and see that.

01:25:02

How can you stand before, I mean, how can you have an altar call and think that's what repentance means?

01:25:10

Well, look, the last paragraph, last paragraph, the clear answer, it seems to me, is that this resolution is about Calvinism.

01:25:21

It's about the devious plan of many Calvinists to do what they can to silence. Listen to this.

01:25:27

One of the most formidable vocal critics of strict Calvinism among Southern Baptists, Dr.

01:25:34

Ergin Kanner. Uh, no, no. Um, let's just, let's just, he may be a loud mouth.

01:25:40

Let's just ask, let's just ask something about simple, logical, rational thought here.

01:25:51

Ergin Kanner has criticized Calvinism, but would anybody, buddy, would anybody say that Ergin Kanner is one of the most formidable vocal critics of Calvinism amongst

01:26:06

Southern? What's he written? What's he written? Where are his books?

01:26:13

Where are his articles? That sermon he gave at Thomas Road was laughable. He was standing on his hands.

01:26:19

We play it as a part of, of, of satire because it is so emotionally charged.

01:26:27

And yet anybody who even tries to follow what he called exegesis of Romans 9 is left going, seriously, really?

01:26:38

It's a joke. He's a joke when it comes to exegesis. I mean, that is an insult to the serious

01:26:47

Southern Baptists who have tried to provide a,

01:26:52

I mean, that's a joke. That's an insult to Keithley to put Kanner together with Keithley.

01:26:57

Now I'm not finding Keithley's book to be over in depth. Okay. But at least there's an attempt.

01:27:03

There hasn't even been an attempt from Ergin Kanner. So Tim Rogers lives in a fantasy world.

01:27:11

It's a fantasy world. And I just want to say to those people who've tried to be dealing with Tim Rogers, you got a problem here, guys.

01:27:21

This guy is not connecting with truth. That's the problem.

01:27:26

Well, I'm finding in my Twitter exchanges, even with Rogers a couple of months ago, the thing

01:27:33

I find most disturbing is I'm picturing a lemming with a whole bunch of lemmings behind him and they just keep repeating the same thing over and over and over.

01:27:46

It's like the birds from... Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.

01:27:53

Which someone recently posted a whole picture of them as the legal representatives of Apple.

01:28:01

And it's just like, you keep repeating the same thing over and over and therefore it is true. And what happened to critical thinking in this country, let alone in the church?

01:28:12

It's gone. The critical thinking part is long gone when it comes to anything relating to the

01:28:18

Kanner situation. There's no question. And I think your point about looking oneself in the mirror is well taken because we all have to do that every day.

01:28:29

And when you stand, when you look at yourself in the mirror the morning before you go on your pulpit, what do you see?

01:28:37

I don't know. I can't answer that. I cannot answer that. I cannot answer that for Peter Lumpkins.

01:28:44

I cannot answer that for Timothy Rogers. All I can say is both those men have much to answer for.

01:28:51

Much to answer for. Well, that also pretty much exhausts our time on the program today.

01:28:58

We will see if there are any developments. Who knows?

01:29:04

Maybe, maybe Pastor Rogers will, will pull that article with an apology.

01:29:10

That would be nice. I sort of doubt it. I sort of doubt it. Thanks for listening to the program today.