June 1, 2016 Show with Tony Costa on “Mother Teresa: A Saint to be Revered or A False Teacher to be Exposed? A Legendary Figure to be ‘Canonized’ by Rome Under Scrutiny”

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Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

Who are listening via live streaming?

This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this first day of June 2016.

And it was about this time yesterday that those of you who are listening to me live

Actually heard an event that never had occurred on iron sharpens iron in all of its

broadcasting history.

A gnat or flute fruit fly flew directly into my throat as I was giving the

announcements for the program and began to choke and had to grab a swig of

coffee.

And I had actually said that it flew into my mouth yesterday, but it actually flew directly into

my throat and That is why I'm even further convinced of the actual meaning of

Beelzebub Lord of the Flies, I think that Satan sent one of his flies to stop

my program yesterday.

Yes, and But I want to let you know that today we are

continuing our two -day examination of Mother Teresa of Calcutta as

Many of you may know the Church of Rome has declared that this fall

she is to be canonized officially as a saint.

And Yesterday I aired a rerun of a

program that I conducted in 2008 with a Roman Catholic a traditionalist

Roman Catholic in good standing with the Church of Rome not a Member of a schismatic group

not somebody under discipline somebody who believes in the historic

doctrines and dogmas and disciplines of the Church of Rome.

And He is a Mark Michael Zima.

I interviewed him back in 2008 over a two -day period on his book Mother Teresa.

The case for the cause is Mother Teresa of Calcutta a saint and.

He.

In that book gave a resounding.

No to the answer for the answer to that question.

He even though a Catholic made a very convincing.

Case.

From.

Thorough documentation that Mother Teresa was not only not

Historically or biblically a Christian Judging by what she has

written and said over the course of her life as a nun

but she Was not even a Roman Catholic if you

truly judge her by what Rome? Actually teaches in their their dogmatic statements.

But we aired that as a rerun yesterday because of the fact that since that

interview had taken place Mother Teresa was declared to be

Canonized as a saint this fall something that Mark Michael Zima actually did not think

was ever going to happen.

He was taken by surprise by this Even as liberal as his own church has

become.

Even in his estimation.

He was surprised that the Church of Rome took this step and He could not be with us

for another live interview due to a work schedule.

That he has so we had a rerun and today I wanted to get an evangelical

Protestant.

Somebody who is actually like myself a Reformed Baptist actually Dr. Tony Costa.

I wanted him to assess our interview yesterday and I wanted him also to give his

insight on Why that is an important discussion to have publicly and

why it is a very important thing to Make clear to the public

that the Church of Rome is not a true

church according to how the Bible describes a true church and That we as

born -again Bible -believing Christians should not be having Fellowship with

Roman Catholics in a religious sense and that is not to say that there are not truly born -again

Catholic individuals.

But they would be either acting in defiance of their own churches dogma

or in ignorance of it in regard to the gospel and those things that

separate them from the Reformation.

But first of all, let me introduce Once again Dr. Tony Costa

professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

It's great to have you back on iron sharpens iron, Tony

I am as well and My co -host as of late is the Reverend buzz

Taylor.

This may be the first time that he had been my co -host since I interviewed you last.

I'm not quite sure but it's great to have you back in the studio Reverend buzz.

Thank you very much and we do have a little bit of audio problem today with Reverend buzzes

microphone and Perhaps that will be straightened out.

Well, perhaps by it before the end of the program we'll have that rectified.

But I'm sure that everything will be fine, especially since I understand you and so does

Dr. Costa, but Tony before we even go into the subject or let me first of all Let me announce our

email address.

If anybody listening would like to ask a question.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And please include your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

If it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, you may do so.

I know that there may be Roman Catholic Listeners who don't really want to identify

themselves when discussing a very controversial issue like this Mark Michael Zima

as much as I disagree with him on Dogma and as much as I disagree

with him on some very vital issues that separate the Church of Rome from

the Reformation.

Mark Michael Zima is a very honest man a very humble

man and a man who took Basically acted with a lot

of courage in writing this book a very critical book About Mother

Teresa knowing that it would alienate him from many of his fellow Catholics and it has.

He got a lot of negative feedback for writing this book which unfortunately is out of

print but Before we even go into the heart of the matter, I

want to hear more about your work at Toronto Baptist Seminary Tony and

I'd also like to find out a Bit about your testimony.

I know that you were a Roman Catholic and you came to embrace the gospel of Grace the

gospel of the Reformation at some point in your life, and I would love to hear more about both of those things.

And I

was raised in a Roman Catholic home

a

very devout we have

you

for

sure whether

a number of.

I never really

the idea

was that

we would need the

and it was really until I was about 15

years of age.

Well, I went

on the

defensive and

as a young 15 year

old,

I thought

directed me into

the Ministry of Apologetics and I.

Yeah, I.

Now

how

have they responded to your conversion to biblical Christianity.

Well, I

know that

my my

parent in the

end my mother

and my grandmother both

came to the Lord.

Wow.

Near the end of his life my father armor of

Roman

Catholicism particular.

Hopefully one day

we will find out.

But It did have an impact on my family.

Well, are you Canadian I am.

And.

Well, that is quite a Remarkable story about especially about hearing about your

mom's Coming to Christ with certainty.

Mine did as well.

I was raised Roman Catholic was an altar boy went to private Catholic

school from first through eighth grade and And became a believer by

the mercy of Christ In the true gospel in my mid -twenties

and my mom Who went home to be with the Lord in? 1995 due to pancreatic

cancer.

She also clearly understood the gospel and Trusted in Christ's sacrifice

on Calvary alone for her salvation while she was on her deathbed in The hospital and actually

at home as well and she renounced prayer to the Saints

and She found her only hope in Christ and told me very

clearly that she was going to heaven.

Only.

Because of what Jesus Christ had done for her on the cross and that her works which were many My mother was

a very godly woman with a life filled with works.

Self -sacrifice a lot of people say that kind of thing about their mother is very true with my mother a

woman who never used vulgarity and Just was a very warm and loving and

forgiving person Even prior perhaps to her regeneration.

I guess I don't know exactly when that occurred obviously only God knows but she made it clear that she

embraced the true gospel to me before departing this earth and

Even Peter Jeffrey a World -renowned Reformed Baptist pastor and

author from Wales.

He was visiting the United States Providentially while my mother was on her deathbed and he visited with her

privately and came out of that sick room

After leaving her side and said to me with his very thick Welsh accent I don't know what you're worried about your mother's going to heaven.

She's born again so that was very Comforting and encouraging

to hear that from Peter.

My dad also is Just like yours.

It's it's not as crystal clear Although the Lord did leave me

with a lot of evidence That I would have reason for hope great.

Hope That he did come to know Christ.

In fact for the last Three at least three years of his life perhaps even

longer than that he would come to my Church the church where I was a member I should say

Every Sunday evening, even if he knew that I wasn't there so there were a lot of signs that

the Lord was drawing him, but The this issue that we're

discussing we're discussing mother Teresa and This is the kind of thing

that gets a lot of people angry doesn't only get Catholics angry.

It gets evangelical Protestants angry who are ecumenists or

who?

Seem to be very fond of pointing to mother Teresa as the ideal

Hero of Christianity at least from the 20th century that we

should revere and imitate and So on and of course mainline

Protestants and people crossing the religious spectrum Revere her as a hero

even Hindus and Buddhists and others look upon her as a a

champion of faith and love and mercy and of course We

don't want to rob her of any of the things that she did in her life

that were wonderful acts of mercy and kindness, but

The the thing is that people get very upset when you put under the microscope Somebody like her

because they think this is all about hatred.

It's all about self -righteousness and arrogance.

How dare you Criticize this woman when you have never

Cleaned the sores of lepers and you've never given people with highly

contagious diseases on their deathbed a drink of water and that kind of thing and you've never ministered to

The sick hopeless and dying the way mother Teresa did how dare you?

Bring a single word of criticism against her how do you respond to

that kind of a Response from those who are either Catholic or

ecumenic ecumenically minded or Who just view her as a hero no matter what

religion they happen to be a part of?

Well,

I would say

Chris and

I think what

they as

long as

you're

nice as long as

you're good as long as

you.

Engage in social

justice and if

you

notice

even in evangelicals

serve

these things.

No, the problem

here is

that when

we for theology, this is the

problem Chris

we have played with the proxy to

there.

They've got the cart.

So our orthodoxy must follow from

our orthodoxy.

What you'll notice today

and of course.

A Bible -believing Christian should be challenged and even

Embarrassed at times or put to the test if you will.

When someone who rejects the genuine gospel of Jesus Christ rejects the

historical and biblical Jesus Actually does have a

life filled with Good deeds works of mercy and charity that makes

ours pale into insignificance.

So we're not saying in arrogance that That there's no

Nothing worthy of of praise if you will or or

there's nothing worthy of having any kind of place of Gratitude in the

hearts of men for someone like her just because she was not a Christian in our assessment from the clear

evidence.

Would you agree with that?

Absolutely.

I mean, I think we would

right and if you know as

if this

program

wasn't controversial enough I.

Might might even also add into the the dialogue just so people can understand where I'm

coming from.

I think that there is an American hero that deserves a place of honor in

the minds and hearts of patriotic American citizens.

Who is dr. Martin Luther King jr.

Martin Luther King jr. Was a very courageous man

who peacefully.

Demonstrated.

For the freedoms and rights of black

citizens of this country as well as other minorities did so at

His own the taking of his own life.

He obviously as everyone knows was assassinated because of the strong public stance

he stood against discrimination and so on and

There were many many things admirable about his life and the things that he said and did he

he in many ways kept? peace in the midst of a an era

when the nation of Islam and other Militant black groups were

rising that were calling for violence.

So there are many things that people of all races races should be thankful

In regard to Martin Luther King jr.

But He although he was a minister a Baptist minister He made it

clear from his doctoral Dissertation which you could actually read online.

It is available online.

And unless dr. King Recanted of this dissertation and

repented of it and actually became a Bible believing Christian.

In.

Reality We cannot judging from his own words View

him as a Christian a fellow brother in Christ because he denied Nearly all of the

essentials of the faith.

He denied the deity of Christ.

He denied substitutionary atonement of Christ.

He did not believe that Christ's death paid for the sins of Men.

He believed that it was an example of humility and Sacrifice that we are all to imitate and there

are many other things.

He denied the virgin birth.

Which actually makes Muslims more? Orthodox in their theology than he was so

there's an example of what I'm speaking of.

Does that make sense to you Tony?

We're gonna be going to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air.

With a question of your own for dr. Tony Costa, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA and

Please only remain anonymous if it's about a Personal or private issue like for

instance if you are a Roman Catholic and are uncomfortable speaking ill

of Its view of Mother Teresa or something to that effect where you do not want

to identify yourself, that's completely understandable but we look forward to Hearing

from you and your questions for dr. Tony Costa after these messages.

So we ask of you also during the station break to get a hold of your family friends

and loved ones.

Especially if they're Roman Catholic and have them listen to this broadcast at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

Iron sharpens iron radio .com will be right back after these messages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orn's and if you just tuned us in we are interviewing today.

Dr. Tony Costa.

Dr. Tony Costa is a professor of apologetics at

the Toronto Baptist Seminary and We have just been informed that for some reason we

are not on the air.

But we're going to continue with the program because we're recording it and we will be airing it at

some point in the very near future.

And We are discussing as I said before the

announced canonization of Mother Teresa of Calcutta by the Church of Rome and

the fact that Not only has a group of Roman Catholics

They are probably in the minority, but not only have they opposed this because they

Knowing what mother Teresa of Calcutta actually believed and taught and

wrote that she was not only not a a Christian from the

definition of what a What from what the definition of what the Bible teaches about that but

also was not even truly a Roman Catholic.

And if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

The.

Well, first of all, we had a listener Tyler from Mastic Beach

Who was listening yesterday?

And he did not know that.

That was a rebroadcast of a a previous interview.

From 2008 when I was airing Mark Michael Zima's Interview actually two

interviews back -to -back on the issue of Mother Teresa.

He did not realize that we were that we were not live so he sent a question That I will read to you

now.

Basically he said What are we to make of?

Mother Teresa.

Keeping in mind that she said I have helped the Muslim be a better Muslim.

Was she a religious pluralist like Oprah Winfrey besides her heretical?

Soteriology.

Yes, and she the famous quote is That she did not want

to make Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus Become Christian.

She wanted to make Muslims better Muslims Hindus better Hindus and Buddhist better Buddhists, but if you

could comment on that, this is Tyler and Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York's question.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes, he is actually an Orthodox Presbyterian convert to Roman Catholicism.

His.

And his brother is in the Reformed faith.

His brother continues to pray for Mark's conversion or

repentance and return to Orthodoxy and Mark is also unusual in that.

He is an authentic Augustinian in regard to his understanding of predestination.

He would have a view very similar to John Calvin's

understanding of predestination not on the gospel and I'm not going to exaggerate Mark's

Orthodoxy, but on the one issue of election.

He.

Believes in the the genuine or Augustinian Understanding of that which of

course you and I would believe is the biblical Understanding of that.

And he said they do exist, but they're obviously a very very tiny minority

out there.

Well, let me ask a question here.

Considering mother Teresa has she made and you seem to have some exact quotes available, which is good.

Has she made comments?

That would indicate that she feels that her work is somehow meritorious that she is earning

her salvation.

For a salvation a non -issue to her altogether.

Yeah, I'm just just just for the sake of the listeners who may not have heard buzz clearly because of his microphone problem.

Did mother Teresa believe that we need to earn our salvation or was salvation.

Not even an issue.

Well, obviously she believed in heaven.

So the must have been some concept of salvation in her mind, but it was obviously very pluralistic.

But if you could tell me.

By the way, we

are back on the air so I have no idea why we were temporarily off the air

but I've been

The prince of the power of the air, right.

But.

Now let me ask you to differentiate something that

that I will give the benefit of the doubt to mother Teresa in part and

Perhaps you could compare What I mean to what she actually

Intended by that view of meritorious suffering.

The great Calvinist Anglican Bishop of the 19th century J. C.

Ryle one of his Fate one of his quotes that is my

favorite.

From.

The booklet you could get from Chapel Library and other places sickness by J. C. Ryle Which

is actually a chapter from a larger work.

I think it's from the upper room or one of his larger books but

the quote that I'm just reading and I'm Remembering this off the top of my head.

I don't have it in front of me, but J. C. Ryle said I'm almost certain I'm getting it

correctly.

He said that Jesus was a man of sorrows and acquainted with

grief.

None have such an opportunity of learning the mind of a suffering Savior as

suffering disciples.

So I Can agree with one aspect of mother Teresa in that?

As far as what Ryle said Which I believe is completely biblical

may be a part of her sentiment.

But she took it much further than that.

Didn't she according to what the way you described it.

Yes, if

you

were

saying is

that

it

did something it

added

and.

Let's go let's go back to another thing that was brought up during my

interview with Mark Michael Zima.

There were there were.

There were Catholics who were complaining That it was not her

Specific job if you will it wasn't her calling it wasn't her role.

It wasn't her purpose to be specifically a teacher or

an evangelist.

Her primary reason for being in her mind was to comfort

the poor sick and dying and to give them hope.

And Therefore we should not be Nitpicking

and You know straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

Over her life.

Because She was a simple woman who really Just

loved the Lord and and dedicated her life to serving him by taking care of

those that many people Would never even physically approach.

Within.

Ten yards or more so therefore, you know.

We should just knock it off get off our high horses and stop.

Being critical of her because that was not her function to be an evangelist or a teacher.

How do you respond to that kind of?

Comment.

I'm well what I was just going to add and buzz Reverend buzz has a question for you as well, but.

It is the role.

It is the duty.

It is it is the obligation that every Christian

Who is truly born from above every person who has the Holy Spirit and dwelt within

them Proclaim a true gospel and Also, not only

is it a duty or an obligation but it is a necessary

fruit of Someone who is truly born from above.

So this is actually something That reveals whether or not she is a Christian

regardless of whether Not she has a life filled with deeds of mercy.

This is a litmus test as to whether she is What she claims to be

a Christian, am I right.

Well also Referring back to your statement about this is just a simple woman.

You know that serving mankind.

Was she just a simple woman?

Didn't she have some kind of training?

Yeah, but buzz just for the sake of our listeners because of his microphone problem.

He is asking was she not an educated woman and rather than just a simple woman.

Who had no knowledge of what the Church of Rome or the Bible actually taught.

Did she have formal training to

your knowledge.

Well

one

thing

that.

Takes away in in my view and I'm sure yours as well.

From her acts of mercy is that one of the most

merciful and loving things that you can do when someone is about to depart

from this planet and enter into eternity is to Plead with them to

repent if they are in a false religion.

Or if they do not yet know Christ as their Savior and

to lull someone into a sense of peace and

Comfort while they're dying when when they open their eyes, they will be in hell

is not.

In its.

In reality, it is not truly an act of mercy or kindness or grace.

We should be willing to even upset.

Those.

Lying on their deathbeds, even if it disturbs their comfort While they are

perhaps a nest anesthetized and so on and Are waiting to meet their

maker.

We should be willing to even rattle their cage and get them upset in what we say rather

than Whisper sweet comforting words in their ears like Unfortunately, I

don't want a broad brush.

There are many wonderful Christian people involved in hospice care, but there were also

from my own Witness of them when my mother was

dying and having Haven't spoken with other hospice workers.

There are many who have a false a dangerous spirituality

And their goal in life.

They believe it is just to give comfort and To remove the

fear from the hearts of those dying.

And when these people very well may be entering into hell for eternity.

Right,

but

it

would

not

do

that.

She would not give the gospel to him.

We're going to another station break.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with dr. Tony Costa and our examination of mother Teresa of Calcutta.

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An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families couples

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90 miles from New York City 70 miles from Philly and 95 miles from

Wilmington and easily accessible.

Scores of notable Christian groups frequently planned conferences at Harvey Cedars like the

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Confessing Evangelicals.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orn's and if you just tuned us in our guest today is dr Tony Costa

and He is not only evaluating the life and teachings of Mother Teresa of

Calcutta who has been declared by Rome

As someone to be canonized as a saint this.

Fall.

But we were also assessing the interview that we did yesterday with Roman Catholic author Mark Michael Zima

who was Vehemently opposed to her canonization and his book

clearly documents that she was not only Not a Christian as the as the Bible would

describe and define one in regard to a belief and understanding

of the gospel, but she was not even a Roman Catholic if you were to use.

The.

Official dogma of Rome as a litmus test.

And by the way, I just want to announce

that our friends at Harvey Cedars would love to hear from you if you are Inquiring about a

perfect place for your next church's conference or your own personal vacation

or any other Christian gathering.

If you are calling them or emailing them Please mention that you heard about

Harvey Cedars on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And also we wanted to announce Because of the fact that our mutual friend

dr. Costa's mutual friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries who

you just heard in that ad for the New American Standard Bible during the station break he

Has the highest regard for our guest today and has really publicly

Declared his appreciation for dr. Costa's gifts and

Abilities in the debating arena something that I think that dr.

White would not say to Freely or liberally or a thing that he

does not take very lightly because that is one of his Great gifts

In his own life and he is probably debating more Muslims and

Roman Catholics then Than any other evangelical

You know alive today, especially the Muslim faith today is his focus

as the Church of Rome at one point Was but he's running out of people who are willing to debate him who are Catholic.

So.

But also obviously because of the current events and the current climate of the globe in regard to

Islam the focus was redirected out of

necessity, I believe but.

We.

We do have a listener in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania

Christian Who asks why are you even concerned over who the

Church of Rome? canonizes as a saint when you as Protestants do

not even believe in such a thing as canonization.

Very good question The obviously we don't even give

merit to anyone that the Church of Rome would declare any kind of a canonization.

Over but if you could respond Tony.

Now obviously we who are Bible believing Protestants

in some sense all of us around the world who are Bible believing Protestants

can Sigh with relief that the Church of Rome is not the way it used to be because

if they had the power and Authority that they once had we may all be.

Beheaded or.

Tortured at the very least.

Disemboweled perhaps for our beliefs, but so there's one side of the

liberalism of Rome that we don't object to but obviously.

One of the reasons why this is an important subject is because of her legendary

status mother Teresa.

I'm speaking of her legendary status and her being considered a

Poster girl if you will for lack of a better term for of Christianity.

She is the ideal model that many people will point to as

How a Christian should live and behave a a Level of Christianity that none of us

or very few of us could ever reach.

And you will have people Who are even evangelical or who are considered evangelical leaders?

Like Billy Graham and many others who will praise her name.

I can remember the late Chuck Colson frequently bringing her up as some great

heroic model of a Christian woman that that

people Everywhere should revere.

But the reverend was in general conversation.

With other evangelicals you have the same sentiment that well, how dare you talk down this

wonderful Christian lady, right?

Yeah, the common view of your average Evangelical would be

they would be aghast.

They would be shocked.

They would be disturbed that we were having this discussion just as much as Rome's

ardent followers of Mother Teresa are.

Because they would view her in a similar light that she is a hero to be revered not somebody to be

Examined and Exposed as a heretic and as a false teacher.

That really Brings us to the heart of the matter Tony doesn't it in

that?

The whole reason why we.

Expose Error.

Heresy things that we would believe are In opposition to the

scriptures that militate to the very teacher militate against the very teachings of our Lord Jesus.

The reason why we do that is not because we want to hurt people's feelings.

Not because we think that we're innately better than anybody else, but it's because

the truth matters.

As James White is fond of saying theology matters.

And.

The the issue of eternal life or damnation is at stake here, isn't it?

Well,

absolutely.

I mean in

in the time

that and that that

of the day.

We

have to

understand.

You will

notice that.

What.

Right.

Well the the

Judaizers

that Paul

spoke so harshly about.

That he who he publicly condemned and said that they were to be accursed

from what we know of the Judaizers.

They had more in common with Bible -believing Christians in the Church of Rome.

Does.

Is that is that an exaggeration from what I understand the Judaizers agreed with Paul?

On possibly everything except they insisted that Gentiles be circumcised

circumcised in order to become Christians.

Yes, and that just reminds me of a debate that I organized between dr. James R

white and father Mitch Pacwa who is a Jesuit priest and

apologist and a very very kind man an honest man a man who I

actually Respect in many ways and enjoy his company and so on But and a man with a lot of

integrity, but he's just dead wrong on some very vital issues that have

eternal consequences, but during their debate James White had brought up the

Apostle Paul's anathema against the Judaizers.

Saying that how can he basically? consider a Roman Catholic who believes in

The Trent's definition of the gospel, how could he consider them a brother.

And Father Pacwa said ah yes, but we have to look at what

the Church of Rome believes about what anathema really means and

James said well if the Church of Rome has a different definition than the Apostle Paul who is

clearly Indicating damnation then you got a big problem there.

Right but So the the issue is that there

are many not only Catholics, but there are many Evangelicals who

are trying to be nicer than the Apostle Paul.

I mean, there's really no other way of looking at it.

Is there?

No, there

isn't and

what the

and

today as you

could

see is

having

disaster.

We're again wandering down the gospel and I'm a denominator

that love is everything and as long as you love one another That's all that matters.

Well, the Apostle Paul said we're tearing down strongholds and every lofty thing and taking every thought

captive to the obedience of Christ.

And that

is

a

very yes and.

You know, it's it's I want to look.

Another things that makes this very ironic this whole discussion is that people Understand

that outside of the realm of religion that these types of

debates are very.

Appropriate.

In other spheres of life.

You know if you're going to have.

People.

Who are relentless and unrepenting of their heroin addiction or other things.

Even.

Who are very reckless about their eating habits or whatever?

Whatever it is in life that they are doing that It makes it clear.

They're being destructive.

Self -destructive.

You're gonna have those who love that person or people.

Be very openly critical of them and urge them to Flee from that behavior

or mindset, etc.

You're not going to just Give your your heroin addict friend a hug and pat them on

the back and say keep up the good work.

Right, and what is more important getting somebody?

To be.

Cleaned or cleansed of a heroin addiction or to have someone to

see somebody rescued from the very clutches of Satan and damnation eternal

damnation.

Right and of course even beyond offending The great reformers who

some of us uphold as heroes.

I don't know how Concerned most evangelicals would be today about offending Luther and

Calvin or anybody else but this is an offense to Jesus Christ to To do to

to declare that the gospel is a matter of less importance

than good.

Physical deeds are

I'm sure people under 30 and in our listening audience have no idea.

You.

Yes, and one of the other things that was One of the other issues that was raised

and confirmed by our Roman Catholic guest yesterday mark Michael Zima Was

that mother Teresa believed that she was demon -possessed and had

at least two exorcisms upon herself.

That were it is apparently according to mr. Zima very highly

documented fact that these occurred.

Can someone who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit become demon -possessed.

Right.

And then by the way, I forgot to mention When you were bringing up her denial of original sin,

even the Church of Rome condemned Pelagius as a heretic and he

Was most famous for denying Original sin and was

that was the core of the the debate between Augustine and Pelagius,

correct.

Right, well

see this

is this

is

where the difficulty is as you

know.

Dr. Tony that as one who Gets into the debating

arena with Catholics yourself You know that it

is very difficult these days to have a clear

logical rational conversation with your average Mainstream

Roman Catholic.

I'm not even speaking necessarily of a liberal Catholic.

Who is you know teaching yoga classes and

Zen Buddhism, I mean the the Long Island Catholic.

Where I'm from on Long Island the Long Island Catholic was the dominant Catholic newspaper and

There would be ads in there posted by Roman Catholic priests Who

called themselves yogis and were teaching Zen Buddhist meditation?

You know, so I'm not even talking about those kinds of Catholics, but your average mainstream

Catholic answers variety of Roman Catholic even you know that that

would be considered more of a conservative Catholic.

It's very hard to have Rational conversations with them because they try to

speak out of both sides of their mouths.

They try to maintain Vatican 1 & 2 Simultaneously.

They they try to uphold and defend the dogmas of Trent that

anathema ties Protestants and at the same time uphold the

fact that Vatican 2 declared us separated brothers and the fact that

their catechism teaches that even Muslims adore the same one

true God as We do so there's a lot of confusion where you can't

You really can't logically follow a train of thought very often when having these discussions with

Catholics.

Can you?

Reverend buzz is a question, but we're going to a break right now so he can ask that when we return.

This is our final break.

And if you'd like to join us, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages to the church at Galatia.

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Welcome back before we go to some of our listener emails.

The Reverend buzz.

Taylor had a question for you.

Well, it seems like it's it's pretty much a given that this is the direction things are going to be going as far as the canonization of

Mother Teresa.

But what do you see this.

How do you see this as an effect on Evangelical witness.

Do you think it's going to be something that's going to make it easier for us more difficult.

What do you see happening as a result of this in our circles?

Yeah, Romans 828 well things work together for the good of those who love God

who are the cold according to his purpose and.

And Obviously even in a circumstance like this the gospel is given an

opportunity to be Defined and proclaimed and defended in light of error

as throughout history.

It seems to have been the catalyst for things being more clearly defined.

Even in the Catholic Church's history at their more biblically Orthodox councils and

so on.

Where we as Protestants even agree with Things that were that were

clearly stated and articulated at some of the earlier councils before Trent.

We do have Tyler again in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York listening to us live

today.

He submitted a question to us yesterday.

And he is listening again to us.

Tyler and Mastic Beach, Long Island.

Says Luther clearly said that Roman Catholic councils have contradicted each other.

How can evangelicals for the good conscience that God has given them call Roman

Catholics brothers and sisters?

When really.

They serve the enemy of our souls.

Very good question.

And before you answer it Dr. Costa, I would like to say that I believe that there

are some Roman Catholics who are our brothers and sisters as I said earlier because they either.

Through.

Opposition to their own churches dogma about the gospel or an ignorance of Their own churches

dogma on the gospel.

They believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

And the question would be why are they still Catholic?

God only knows why they would remain in such a religion if they have a different gospel, but if you could

comment Tony.

Yeah, and in

fact Luther

didn't even want

to

leave

the Catholic Church.

Yeah, he fled at the risk of his own life or to spare his own life because they

were.

Yeah, in fact if that goes over the head of our listeners he was basically saying I would rather them

castrate themselves.

Right

and if you

could define.

Fellowship.

Because obviously, excuse me.

Obviously, there is nothing sinful about being in the company of Roman Catholics

enjoying a meal with them.

Having them over a home for the holidays Etc, etc.

Having them in our backyards for a barbecue going to a sporting event with them.

And you know really loving them and enjoying their friendship.

There's nothing wrong with that.

We have

an anonymous listener

from

Oyster Bay, Long

Island, New York, this is why do you keep.

Insisting upon using the Council of Trent as a litmus test as To

whether or not you embrace someone as a brother that is your opposition to the

Council of Trent's definition of the gospel when the church has

I'm assuming this is.

The Catholic Church has progressed much farther since then as

Vatican to.

Clearly.

Clearly reveals and our guest has just accidentally been Disconnected.

I'm sure it was accidentally.

So we're gonna Hopefully get him back on the line very quickly.

Our email address in the 15 to 20 minutes that we have left is

Is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

I didn't think that our listener offended you that greatly Tony that you hung up on us.

But I don't know if you heard the whole question but basically

Basically it seems that this may be a Catholic and anonymous listener.

This is why are we using an opposition to Trent's definition of the

gospel as a litmus test as to whether we embrace

a person as a brother in Christ.

Because of the fact that they this person says that the Catholic Church has basically

Gone way beyond that.

That the Vatican to is really clearly in many ways pointed, you know

harmonious relationships between Protestants Catholics in a different direction than Trent.

And by the way, just in case some of our listeners start looking up the Council of Trent like on the Internet or

other places We as Bible believing Christians don't reject everything in

Trent because there are some essential Christian Doctrines in Trent like the deity of Christ and

the Trinity and many other things like that that we would affirm but there are anathemas

declared against things that are uniquely Protestant in that

council that condemn All of us who consider ourselves heirs of the

Reformation.

So therefore that is a crucial Document

to point to When we are trying to hash out these differences that we

have and I get and it is obvious dr. Tony why

people are confused about Vatican to When it is compared to the

Council of Trent because it appears With the the language of separated brothers

and other things That there is a departure from Trenton in some ways

they they're wanting to have their cake and eat it too, aren't they?

Yeah,

a lot

more people like

Rick Warren

when he was

in Rome.

He

actually

hyper

River there.

Yes.

Wow, I didn't even know that Robert Shuler died.

Yes.

Yeah, and you can't help but wonder if this is just a PR ploy

that the church developed just like the the Mormons the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints when They knew that they would be Imprisoned

and lose all of their property.

In the 19th century they recanted polygamy and when they learned that they were going

to lose tax -exempt status at least in their schools and so

on they recanted a segregation in

the church.

They denied Priesthood.

Mormon priesthood to blacks, right?

Yeah prior to the Mid 1970s, I mean and people right people don't even

realize that was only the 1970s that they welcomed those of the black race

into all Offices and opportunities of the Mormon

faith, but uh, right but this seems like this is what Vatican to.

You can't escape if they if they did not recant Trent which they couldn't

without denying people infallibility.

Right.

How could they possibly affirm or reaffirm Trent and yet introduce

novel Understandings of their faith that were never believed or taught in the history of their

church prior.

Right, right.

I think you're right.

I think that PR.

And that he is a rewardable to seek him.

With the Vatican too.

And so

yeah

for those

of our

listeners

who don't know

that

term.

It's

basically a.

Traditionalist group of Roman Catholics who although they affirm that the

papacy is a dogma and That it is a they affirm

the infallibility of the papacy.

They believe that there hasn't been a true Pope since at least the early

60s 1960s and So basically that's where the term Sata

vacant is that seat the seat is vacant.

The seat of Peter is currently vacant and They use the excuse

That that is not Bizarre or out of step with Roman Catholic teaching or

history because they say even when a Pope dies That seat is vacant.

So the you know, even within the the understanding of all Roman Catholics

There is a time when that seat is vacant.

So and somebody who's very famous Who at least at one time?

I'm not sure what he is now, but Mel Gibson the World -renowned actor

and the the producer and director of the passion of the Christ film

He was at least at one time a seat of a contest and his father

Was I'm not sure if his father is still living.

But anyway I'd like you to really

Unburden your heart and leave our listeners with what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before we run out of time

today.

Well at the end

of the day the

gospel mess

is.

You can come to us at

the end of

the day.

You're not a man

and one thing

that I'd

like

to

ask

you.

Before we run out of time as well is that one of the major attractions.

To.

Both Catholics and Protestants who are ideologically conservative and politically

conservative.

Who have in common biblical moral values and ethics.

As they see this ecumenism as being a very essential and crucial thing in

a day and age that we are living in when people are Being

celebrated for getting sex change operations.

Men are marrying men and women are marrying women.

Abortion.

The numbers of Babies being murdered in the womb are going through the roof

and continue to climb.

Our culture is Becoming more and more satanic

overtly in many regards and that is insane of us.

It is foolish of us who believe that

Our governments Both yours there in Canada and ours here in the United States.

If we want to see them return to sanity and respect for

biblical morals and values and ethics that we should be Linked arm -in -arm with each other

meaning Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants.

Because these things that we are talking about are ivory tower discussions.

These things are they might be important in one way or another, but they are not

as vital as Those issues that are destroying our culture.

How do you respond to that?

I'm assuming when you say that you don't have a problem with the Cobelligerence as

as it were With the Roman Catholics and others who do not believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ

as the Bible defines it.

I'm assuming you mean that you don't oppose that.

If it does not require that you put your gospel on the shelf.

There are there are pro -life organizations and Again, our mutual

friend.

Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries who is adamantly pro -life as every Christian should be

but he had to Step down from involvement years ago

In a pro -life organization that forbode him.

From sharing the gospel with Roman Catholics who are marching on the same

Protest lines and so on.

You know the that were praying the rosary and and all that kind of thing he was forbidden.

From Correcting them and sharing with them the gospel as if they were

Not Christian now.

I'm assuming that that kind of a compromise is not something that you would be willing to make.

Well, I

know

that

the.

Website for Toronto Baptist Seminary is tbs .edu.

TBS for Toronto Baptist Seminary that edu.

What other contact information would you like to leave with our listeners?

If

you could repeat that just one

more time.

Thank you so much, dr. Tony for being our guest today.

I eagerly look forward to having you back very soon on this program.

I also eagerly look forward to having you Come to Pennsylvania here in Carlisle where I live.

To be involved in debates with Roman Catholics Muslims liberals and others and I

am really Enthusiastically anticipating what God has in store for us.

Well, I want everybody to always remember for the rest of their lives That Jesus Christ is a

far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

God bless and we look forward to hearing from you the next time with your own questions for our guests on

iron sharpens iron radio.