Bonus: Can Al Mohler have his cake and eat it too, Part 2

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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I'm your host Andrew rap report. We have a bonus episode This is actually a rewind from a previous episode that we had done some time ago with Al Mauler still relevant today

01:11

And some of our new listeners Maybe you never heard it listeners already heard it Well, it's still educational for us to see what's going on in the area of social justice and Al Mauler Why are we doing this?

01:22

Well because we're being paired up against Al Mauler's the briefing podcast in the do theology

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Podcast contest so we want everyone to go to the Facebook page for Do theology and vote for the rap report why well listen to Al Mauler in his own words and realize

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Where we provide biblical interpretation and application This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the

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Christian podcast community for more content or to request a speaker for your church Go to striving for eternity dot org

03:08

Christians understand the responsibility to be clear to be always ready to give an answer and to give that answer

03:15

Directly with clarity not with confusion and we understand that even as confusion is to be avoided and clarity is to be

03:23

Demonstrated we understand that the worst form of confusion is an intentional confusion an intentional ambiguity

03:35

Welcome to the rap report with Andrew rep report. We provide biblical interpretations and applications

03:42

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community For more content or to request a speaker for your church go to striving for eternity org

03:54

Okay, we are back. I am Andrew rep for your host of the rap report and we're back from g3

04:00

We are had a great time. I'm sure because we're recording this before g3 But I'm sure we had a great time

04:09

I'm sure that we enjoyed all the sweet fellowship with all of you and Yeah, and I'm sure that we'll have some podcasts afterwards with many of you that we got a chance to hopefully interview while we were there

04:22

We're gonna continue on this discussion that we started last week with dr. Mohler and again

04:27

I'm gonna say what I said last time This is something that we're doing as a teaching not discernment, but we are being discerning as well

04:35

But we're not a discernment ministry we are a teaching ministry and there are areas when times where yes we do have to Call people out and that's what we're looking to do.

04:48

You heard in the opening that dr. Mohler says that we cannot Intentionally have ambiguous language.

04:53

I agree with him. But you know, this is something he said at the Shepherds conference I'm gonna play this and this is what we're looking to to deal with He said this but I hope to do so absolutely consistently and absolutely

05:07

Biblically with fidelity and I invite you and all others to interrogate every aspect of my life and show me where I may come short okay, so that's what we're seeking to do if you haven't listened to part one of Can al moeller have his cake and eat it to go back and listen to part one?

05:26

You can listen to these independently, but part one we dealt with the issue of Dr. Moeller calling out a foreign country foreign vocation foreign religion meaning he was calling out a

05:40

Politician in Canada who's Roman Catholic for not answering the question clearly about Homosexuality and whether it's a sin or not and we are calling him out because Beth Moore was asked a very direct question

05:53

About homosexuality being a sin same -sex attraction Being a sin now, that's not a foreign country.

06:00

That's a same country. That's not a foreign vocation That's the same vocation as dr. Moeller and it's not a foreign religion.

06:05

It's actually the same denomination and We're challenged dr. Moeller and anyone who knows dr.

06:12

Moeller to reach out to him to say listen as a leader in the SBC he needs to to You know get

06:20

Beth Moore to answer these questions But now we're gonna get to things that are more hitting home for dr.

06:26

Moeller himself And I'm gonna say what I said last episode. I don't know.

06:32

Dr. Moeller personally If he would like to reach out to me You he can email me anyone can

06:38

Info at striving for eternity dot org. Let me know where you think I'm wrong But I I do see an area here that many have

06:48

I think tried to reach out to dr Moeller and address where there is some

06:55

Ambiguity, I think it may even be purposeful and we're gonna play that clip again later that he mentions.

07:01

We shouldn't be doing that Because when it comes to the area of social justice,

07:07

I do not believe Dr. Moeller has been clear now

07:13

I'm gonna play some clips and to question a Q &A that was had at the Shepherds conference in 2019

07:20

I will give the link to the full Q &A so you can watch the whole thing

07:26

We'll play some longer clips here. So we get some context, but there was some challenging questions that were asked and I do believe that dr.

07:38

Moeller needs to answer these things in my opinion And so I think that as we evaluate this this episode is one

07:48

Asking the question that dr. Moeller had said When he said this on his the briefing podcast from November 11th

07:57

When I was a little boy, I was often befuddled by some of my mother's expressions several of them as a matter of fact

08:03

Which often falls to children? But one of them in particular she would sometimes speak of someone trying to have his cake and eat it, too

08:10

I couldn't understand the difference between Having and eating because when she offered me a piece of cake

08:15

She would say would you like to have a piece of cake? only later did I figure out that what she actually meant was someone having the cake as in keeping it or saving it and Eating it at the same time.

08:26

That's the contradiction Trying to have your cake and eat it too is thus a metaphor for trying to have it both ways

08:33

It is impossible and we are agreeing that it is Impossible, but I do believe in my personal opinion based on what

08:43

I'm going to present here today That dr. Moeller is trying to have his cake and eat it too in the area of social justice.

08:51

He has spoken out against social justice on the briefing countless times

09:00

He's been very clear against it But it doesn't it seems like he is not against it when it is within the

09:08

Southern Baptist Convention Just like he hasn't held Beth Moore's feet to the fire when it comes to homosexuality

09:16

It seems he's not keeping the Southern Baptist Convention's feet to the fire when it comes to issues of critical race theory

09:24

Intersectionality and social justice. What do I mean by these terms? Maybe they're new to you critical race theory is this idea that we can evaluate people's races and And Basically try to make up for wrongs that were done to other races in the past and This is something we dealt with on previous episodes here and You could go back to previous rap reports and see that we've dealt with this issue where people want to try to Use language and try to apply it

10:00

In such a way as saying, okay. Well, we're we're responsible for what others do okay, this that's the issue of social justice and what you end up seeing with this is that they will argue that we we need to rethink how we do ministry and Intersectionality is basically where everyone looks for victim status

10:22

Everybody is a victim the more of a victim you are the more right you have to speak on subjects

10:28

And if you have no victim status, in other words, if you're a white male You have no right to speak on things you have you have privilege and therefore you shouldn't speak and This is being used as a means of trying to be a ruler of some kind of way of measuring within the

10:46

Southern Baptist Convention now and This is something that if you go to the statement of social justice and the gospel

10:53

You'll see as you know, many of us who sign that many of us who helped write that we're gonna get into discussing that but You know with with that statement there is you know, there was a lot of people who had input on that and Dr.

11:14

Mohler We're gonna play clips of him on that issue He did not sign it.

11:20

There was question about why he didn't sign it. And I think some of the answers he gives I'm I'm gonna say are not very good answers

11:29

Now you could go to statement on socialjustice .com. You can sign it. You can read the statement and sign it you could see all 12 ,000 people who have signed it

11:40

You will see that I'm listed in on the front page as one of the initial I was one of the initial 75 who were part of the group that reviewed this and had say in this and were able to offer some

11:54

Things to to look at as ways to improve this statement, so we're gonna talk about that later, but Dr.

12:03

Mohler didn't sign this it became an issue of contention at the Shepherds conference And what

12:08

I want to do is I'm gonna play a clip a four -minute clip from the conference

12:14

So that we can get the context and I want to break these down then

12:20

With bud and go through each of these so let me play this longer clip first so you get the context

12:25

All right, so let me ask some more difficult questions You all have been friends for longer than two decades and there haven't in those years been very many things that you've disagreed on publicly, but now there is with the social justice issue and so I wanted to ask some questions about that and let me start with you

12:45

Al because You've said something that I've thought of often, I think it's it's a really good insight, and that is that Sort of the leftward drift the liberalizing drift that affects not only politics, but theology happens incrementally, but any

13:05

Reformation towards the right happens exponentially are you not concerned at all about the

13:12

Liberalizing drift of the social justice movement and all the rhetoric that goes along with that. I'm sure you are

13:18

Yeah, the only offense I take at that is that I talk about this five times a week for 25 minutes well

13:26

Let me let me give you my perspective on that because you do you don't take offense, but You I do listen to you every morning.

13:40

You have opinions on everything in the news, but when it comes to The evangelical movement and the social justice issue particularly

13:48

I'm not talking about You know what happens in the world of politics, but I'm talking about what happens among our constituents

13:56

And the rhetoric that's going on in places like t4g and and the gospel coalition

14:03

You have been remarkably silent. It's one of those issues where I've only heard you speak on it in the ask anything

14:10

It Sections when people ask you questions like I'm doing right now, and yeah

14:16

I think the pushback is I think that's what my whole life is speaking about I mean I I began

14:21

I mean all my public ministry began dealing with these questions, so I do take a bit of offense not personally

14:28

But I mean I just I I am NOT going to be forced into a

14:34

Twitter conversation and 140 characters about these issues I have been trying to lay out for 30 plus years and understanding of how evangelicals should engage the culture and I mean

14:48

I cut my teeth apologetically Confronting cultural Marxism, and I mean the entire network of issues of the left

14:56

You look at who I invite to my campus. You'd look at who I cite you look at who

15:02

I Platform I feel pretty good about the message that I'm sending there when it comes to concerns about the evangelical left

15:14

Absolutely, I mean I have been quite vocal and anyone who knows the

15:21

Conversations amongst evangelical leadership knows exactly where I am on these issues how best to articulate that Concern in this particular

15:30

Moment that's not easy. That's not easy, and I have tried to help to interpret these issues as clearly and biblically and charitably as I can

15:44

I'm afraid we're going to lose an enormous number of evangelicals to various kinds of social gospel because that's a lot easier to find satisfaction in than evangelism and And so again,

16:03

I look at look at what I do on my campus look at who I Platform look at the issues. I write about Knowing exactly how to How to help younger evangelicals figure these things out

16:17

Which is actually my job as a seminary president that that's not real easy

16:24

And I will confess that but I'm trying to be as clear as I can be on this

16:29

I Mean for years. I mean this has been the great concern t4g was largely created out of the concern

16:36

There was confusion over what the gospel is okay, so you heard him say he's trying to be as clear as possible

16:44

The reason that Phil Johnson is asking the question is because there is not clarity Now you heard him a four -minute answer did you hear the clarity?

16:56

Did he give you the answer now? Why do I bring this up if you listen to the last episode?

17:02

We played some clips from his November 11th briefing and I'm gonna play some of them here and and give them to you because What I believe he's doing is trying to have his cake and eat it, too

17:15

He talks about the fact that there is a need for clear language when it comes to issues of sexuality gender using these different words and and he's is critical very critical of Roman Catholics that will try to play it both ways

17:35

Here's a clip from his his Briefing where he talks about having his cake and eating it, too

17:41

When I was a little boy, I was often befuddled by some of my mother's expressions several of them as a matter of fact

17:47

Which often falls to children, but one of them in particular She would sometimes speak of someone trying to have his cake and eat it, too

17:54

I couldn't understand the difference between Having and eating because when she offered me a piece of cake

17:59

She would say would you like to have a piece of cake? only later did I figure out that what she actually meant was someone having the cake as in keeping it or saving it and Eating it at the same time

18:10

That's the contradiction trying to have your cake and eat it too is thus a metaphor for trying to have it both ways

18:17

It is impossible and we can see on so many of these issues where there are denominations and Christian institutions and schools and even school districts that are effectively on this moral challenge trying to have their cake and eat it too or They're trying to avoid at all costs having to make a decision that will cost them one way or the other

18:38

But the lesson for us all is that that cost is going to come inevitably It is very clear when you look at Andrew Scheer or you look at the school policy or you look at other

18:48

Instances all over the place these days. It is very very clear that there is no refuge in ambiguity it is very clear that the moral revolutionaries will not accept no answer as an answer and At the end of the day, even as you might try to say

19:03

I'm going to accept the language But I'm going to define the terms myself That's not going to work because the people who are determining the words that are mandated eventually will also

19:14

Determine the mandated meaning of those words and that last part is very key

19:21

But you've been a Southern Baptist. I haven't but there was a big issue with at the

19:27

Sun Baptist Convention with article 9 and I'm going to link for folks the

19:33

Movie by what standard that founders org put out and I encourage you to watch that so you understand these issues and how serious they are and Why we're addressing this with dr.

19:45

Moller But could you bring people up to speed who may not be Southern Baptists or followed this with what went on with article 9?

19:53

Well, yeah, it's resolution resolution 9. Sorry. Yeah resolution 9 and it was adopted last summer at the

19:59

Southern Baptist Convention when they gathered in Birmingham, I believe that it was and It really got railroaded through it's my impression that most of the messengers that were sitting there had no clue

20:13

What this truly represented a couple of men Tom Askell with founders and ministry

20:19

Tom Buck is another one that that spoke out on the convention floor about this But what resolution 9 essentially did is to adopt as an analytical tool the theory of critical race and the usage of intersectionality and Those were not to be elevated above Scripture but subservient to Scripture the problem with that is that Inherently those two things critical race theory or a critical theory itself and intersectionality come from a completely unbiblical

20:59

Atheistic worldview So what we're doing is we're taking philosophy from the world worldly wisdom

21:05

Which I think Scripture says is foolishness to God and we want to employ that now as a mechanism

21:13

Analytically to evaluate culture to evaluate Ethnic and racial issues gender issues sexuality issues

21:25

Alongside Scripture. This is an additional tool that can be used and the the issue that we would have with this is the fact that you know, this is basically a

21:40

Situation where they're using it as a tool people have warned against this. There's been clear warning on this and Dr.

21:49

Moeller has made it very clear that you cannot have the language where you're going to allow a tool and Yet you define the language on the

22:01

Episode on November 11th of the briefing if you listen to that and they'll be linked in the show notes You can listen.

22:06

He makes it very clear that when a church or sorry a Catholic school tried to land change language

22:12

So they could fit with the culture But they wanted to redefine the the culture's language so that it can fit their standard

22:20

So they could say to the culture. Yes, we're accepting this but we're gonna use a different Meaning of this and he says you can't do that.

22:29

I mean he said that the Catholics couldn't do that So why can the Southern Baptists? Listen to what he said

22:35

In worldview analysis The biggest problem here is the assumption that you can accept language without Accepting the new moral reality that the language brings especially this kind of language and that's true

22:47

And that's exactly what they're doing at the Southern Baptists They want to say that they can accept the language critical race theory and intersectionality, but they want to give it a different meaning

22:57

Yeah You can't do that you cannot have your cake and eat it too

23:05

No, and what compounds this? For dr. Moeller at least the impression that that you and I are evaluating here

23:13

Is that dr. Moeller knows and has spoken? Elsewhere even on his briefing not the one that that you've linked to and and Excerpted from but he's spoken on the briefing about the danger of some of these things

23:30

I mean, he said for instance, we don't have a clip for this and it's a brief quote. I can give you

23:35

Al Moeller says this ideas as we know do have Consequences the main consequence of critical race theory is identity politics and Identity politics can only rightly be described as antithetical to the gospel of Jesus Christ We have to see identity politics as nothing less than devastating to the

23:58

Church of the Lord Jesus Christ Now he's saying that of critical race theory. That's a right assessment

24:05

That that's a correct assessment with which we could agree However, what is compounded in which he alluded to with Phil Johnson at Shepherds conference in that Q &A is to analyze who?

24:17

Platforms. Well the man that introduced Resolution 9 to the Southern Baptist last summer is

24:24

Curtis Woods a professor under Moeller at Southern Seminary who teaches

24:29

New Testament, I think in the MDiv program. So you've got these two contradictory

24:36

Things coming at us from dr. Moeller and and and that's where the concern is. Just like we had with him

24:43

Where we want to see him force Beth Moore to give us an answer on the issue of homosexuality

24:48

Well, we're looking at who you've platformed just in this one little case And and it doesn't match the rhetoric that you rightly are giving

24:58

Well, you're exactly right. Let me let me play some of the clips because there are some clips here I'll play the clip that you just referenced to it the platforming you look at who

25:06

I invite to my campus You'd look at who I cite you look at who I Platform.

25:13

I feel pretty good about the message that I'm sending there Well, see I would tell you why I have a concern with the message

25:19

He's sending there and this has nothing to do if you just play me that clip

25:25

I'll tell you why I would have a concern as someone who debates as someone who who Is trained to look at how people are answering questions to see if they're giving non answers

25:37

That's exactly what that is that is a style of tactic to try to avoid answering a question and basically saying that Because of who

25:48

I associate with I'm in the clear. I Got news for you. That's intersectionality right there.

25:55

That is intersectionality Exactly that is intersectionality. It's to say well you you can't criticize me

26:02

Because of who I associate with or who the color of my skin or whatever whatever victim status I'm claiming that right there is the intersectionality issue

26:13

Well, it truly is my point is if you see that point to him, okay

26:18

Let's look at who you platform the very example That is the critical issue right now in the

26:24

Southern Baptist Convention was put forth by a man that he platformed

26:31

Yeah, and and the thing though is is that when someone is is saying instead of answering a question clearly without Ambiguity he's saying look at look at who

26:43

I'm with look at the people I'm with well guess what the the fact that you associate with good people doesn't mean

26:48

That we could trust everything because as you're pointing out if you look at if you're gonna if his he's gonna say you can

26:54

Trust me because of who I platform with well, okay, but you've just mentioned who he platforms with and That's the problem, right?

27:05

Yeah, exactly. I can hang around with a lot of really smart people, but it doesn't put me in the membership of Mensa Yeah Well, you know

27:13

I passed the test for Mensa. So how does that do for you? proving my point

27:22

So, but you know the thing is is that what you end up seeing with this is I think the way he is arguing.

27:29

Okay, so we mentioned the platforming. This is a way of not answering He said

27:35

I'm gonna play this clip again because he said you cannot be ambiguous Christians understand the responsibility to be clear to be always ready to give an answer and to give that answer

27:46

Directly with clarity not with confusion and we understand that even as confusion is to be avoided and clarity is to be

27:54

Demonstrated we understand that the worst form of confusion is an intentional confusion an intentional ambiguity

28:02

No, I'm not accusing. Dr. Mahler of being intentionally ambiguous here

28:08

But it does seem like it because he's an intelligent guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah So why is he not answering he part of his and his non answer is to say look at who

28:18

I platform with But let me deal with some of the other ways. He answered

28:24

Phil's question Phil asked him a direct question Okay It was a direct question

28:31

What what it what is it that Al Mohler says on the briefing on the 11th? Christians must be ready to give a direct and honest answer when we are asked a question about sin

28:43

That might come indeed It will come with a considerable political cost but failing to answer the question comes with an even deeper cost

28:51

To both theology and doctrine and to personal ethics Okay, so he's being asked a direct question not not in this case about sin

29:00

But it is it is about theology and it is about being clear It what it is still not really clear where Al Mohler stands

29:08

With the issue of social justice within the Southern Baptist Convention See, he's made it clear where he stands on social justice outside of the

29:17

Southern Baptist Convention But the question is within the convention and when Phil asked the question

29:23

Dr. Mohler said this so I do take a bit of offense not personally But I mean, I just I am

29:29

NOT going to be forced into A Twitter conversation and 140 characters about these issues.

29:36

Okay Here's the reality. He's answering that on stage at the

29:41

Shepherds conference Where it's not a Twitter Yeah, right If he wanted to give a thorough answer

29:49

I am certain that Phil would have given him the platform for an hour to explain this

29:56

You know We dealt with last episode with the whole issue of Al Mohler, you know

30:03

Saying that people have to answer the question of homosexuality whether it's a sin and the fact that Beth Moore won't

30:08

We mentioned that and we pointed out that within 10 seconds Al Mohler in 10 seconds answered three of the five questions asked of Beth Moore publicly about Homosexuality, but they were the ones that addressed the sin issue and he answered them all in just 10 seconds

30:25

He knows very well how to answer things clearly Articulately so that they're very quick and provide a very good thorough answer.

30:36

He can do that. He can be that concise We know that about him Absolutely So what why is this a different animal in correct?

30:47

And the only thing I see similar to last week is the fact that it's within the

30:53

Southern Baptist Convention He's very clear outside of the Southern Baptist Convention, but the issues within the convention are where I think

31:01

Dr. Mohler cannot have his cake and eat it, too. I mean have you ever if you're listening in this if you've been where you've had in conversations with people and You ask them a question and they start saying well,

31:14

I'm not I'm not gonna be forced into a you know, a short answer Twitter answer no one was asking you for that That's the issue

31:25

Phil wasn't asking him Dr. Muller, can you give me in one word? A key or just a few words.

31:33

What did what do you think when I say Beth Moore go home? No, I'm not go home.

31:39

We're not looking for a go -home answer here. Correct, right? There's there's a difference here between the question that John MacArthur was asked with give me just a few words what you think of Beth Moore right totally different here and The difference is he had the opportunity if he so wanted to give a more thorough answer.

32:00

In fact Dr. Muller is gonna take up most of the time He took four minutes there that we played and most of it was avoiding to answer

32:09

Yeah, it was a lack of clarity with a lot of confusion and Like I said,

32:17

I was he trying to intentionally be ambiguous? No, but he made it effective nonetheless and so, you know, he said this about being articulate when it comes to concerns about the evangelical left absolutely,

32:33

I I mean I'm I have been quite vocal and anyone who knows the Conversations amongst evangelical leadership knows exactly where I am on these issues how best to articulate that concern in this particular

32:48

Moment that's not easy, but that's the question being asked of him

32:54

You see this is the this is the where the problem is That was the very thing that was being asked of him was to answer that and he didn't do it

33:05

And that was the whole reason that Phil asked in this

33:10

Q &A about this and And he didn't answer. What's his answer?

33:16

Well, everybody knows where I stand Nobody seems to know where you stand within the SBC You see we have to be clear and articulate and not ambiguous.

33:25

I'm trying not to I'm being very clear on what I think The issue is I think dr Moller is trying to have his cake and eat it too in the issue of intersectionality critical race theory and social justice within the

33:37

Southern Baptist Convention He is very clear outside. It's with the convention

33:44

It's easy to look over the fence at the evangelical left if and there is such a thing out there

33:50

I mean, but say we're gonna look at the mainline denominations and we're gonna criticize them for their lack of allegiance to Scripture for their infidelity to authority and their infidelity to Sufficiency of Scripture.

34:02

It's easy to look over the fence and and see that you don't have to be very astute

34:08

Doctrinally to analyze that see it and recognize the problem The the issue the ambiguity that comes up is we're not doing this in our own backyard correct and He's being asked this and and let me be clear because some people may not know some of the backstory.

34:28

Okay, if You watch that full that that full Q &A you're gonna see dr.

34:36

Moeller I mean he could say I'm not I'm not taking offense personally Yeah, I think he is

34:43

You not take offense personally. Well, I I think is it I think I I do know that he was he was taken off guard

34:51

I will put that out there. I do know that But there's a reason he was taken off guard that some others weren't.

34:57

Okay, and that would be The dr. Moeller was not in the green room at the time when

35:04

Phil was talking to all the guys and discussing some of the things that they were going to Be discussing and so you're gonna if you listen to the full thing you'll hear

35:16

Where mark Dever is going to make reference to the fact that they just spoke about it in in the room.

35:22

So Basically Phil sat down said hey listen, these are some things I want to ask you guys You guys okay with this and so most of them knew the questions were coming except for dr.

35:32

Moeller He wasn't in the green room. Okay, so This was something he didn't know was coming.

35:38

I don't know how he didn't know. I'll be honest I don't know how he didn't know because come come, you know building up to the

35:46

Shepherds conference There was all these questions of would doctor or would

35:51

Phil ask the questions would dr. Moeller answer would mark Dever answer that was building up to it

35:58

So, I don't know how he could not know it was gonna come. I mean the pre -published notice for that QA I mean its title thinking biblically about social justice.

36:08

This is the topic of the Q &A. I Doubt that he didn't well, dr.

36:15

Moeller was unaware of dr. Moeller may not have read that Okay, I mean he came in to speak and I could tell you that you know as a speaker

36:24

I do try to always read the the bulletins and everything that they that everyone that's attending is reading

36:30

Even when I go to a church and I'm preaching I will read through that churches Even it's the only time I've ever gonna be in that church.

36:36

I will read through what that church has got going on in the you know in the

36:43

You know Events and announcements and things like that, you know, I'll do that just for the sake of knowing the the church and He may not have done that I mean he was pretty busy so I'll give him

36:58

I will give him the benefit of the doubt with that, but The thing is is that Here he's being asked and he's he's saying well, everyone knows where I stand, but it's hard to articulate this

37:12

What we you're saying at different times we we have to answer we can't have ambiguity and yet you also will say

37:22

It's hard to articulate it, but everyone knows where you stand Well, if you're being asked the question, then it's clear that people don't know where you stand

37:28

And and how do the answer people know where he stands outside of the Southern Baptists Not within So, let me let me this this whole thing

37:41

It's at the Shepcon. Let me play this quote from him Responding specifically to the statement of social justice and the gospel

37:51

Phil you asked I want to be very honest. I know you've known me for a long time. So, you know of my concerns

37:56

I am having before God to try to address those concerns the way

38:02

I think best consistent with 35 years of public ministry, so I Was not particularly appreciative of being handed a statement

38:16

So the first question was about pride I don't want this to be pride, but I had no opportunity to offer any

38:25

Particular Consultation or suggestion. It's not pride of authorship, but I am just reluctant to sign on to anything

38:34

That's not creedal and confessional That that doesn't express exactly how

38:41

I would want to say something not signing should not be interpreted as a

38:46

Rejection of common concern. I don't think that's fair. I don't think I think you understand that of course

38:53

Okay, and I'll agree with that tale and right it's a just because he didn't sign it There's I know people who didn't sign it

38:59

I know people who worked on the writing of it and didn't sign it and people have their reasons So it doesn't mean that he's in disagreement, but I have issue with something.

39:08

He said let me play part of what he said again. I Was not particularly appreciative of being handed a statement

39:19

So The first question was about pride. I don't want this to be pride, but I had no opportunity to offer any particular

39:30

Consultation or suggestion it's not pride of authorship, but I am just reluctant to sign on to anything

39:37

That's not creedal and confessional. Okay. Here's why I have an issue with that He's saying he didn't doesn't like being handed a statement where he has no input

39:49

Okay, so let me give you some backdrop Okay Okay, he had he had plenty of opportunity for input

39:56

I had input if I had input I can tell you that he could have had input he was given the statement and Even Mark Devere in that Q &A will refer to the fact that they were given the statement

40:11

They did have some Mark Devere mentions things. He didn't quite agree with he doesn't remember what they were at the time

40:17

Of the Q &A, but he did have things that he said he didn't agree with But I know that before that statement ever came out.

40:26

I had read the version I had provided some feedback on things

40:32

I disagreed and the fact that they took one of the things that I didn't like the

40:38

Particular wording and the next revision it was the way that I suggested

40:43

Now maybe I wasn't the only one but if someone like me Who's a nobody had input?

40:50

Are you telling me? Dr. Muller? They wouldn't have listened to you. I Mean if if the guys who were on the initial team

40:59

Reached out to someone like me to say, you know, hey and now granted I was one of the original 75 people who did you know?

41:07

Try to get that try to get this started and and see that to get some of the people that did get behind it to get them involved but The thing is is that I cannot fathom how

41:22

They would not take what you say Into consideration. Yeah.

41:29

Yeah, exactly I'll tell you though the opening

41:36

Sentence or so that that dr. Moller mentioned I really had a you know, that just caught me

41:42

Wrong, I guess where he talks about he wants his response to be consistent with his 35 years of public ministry

41:49

I think what Phil? Nobly was motivated to find out was not an answer a response.

41:57

It was consistent with dr. Moller's 35 years of ministry What's the answer that's consistent?

42:02

with biblical fidelity What do you see that is in contrast to that I'm far less concerned about dr.

42:13

Moller's consistency with his public ministry than I am to see him step forward and be

42:20

Consistent with biblical fidelity he does that in a lot of places and and here he's just not clear

42:26

And that's the reason he's being asked about this. That's the whole thing Because there is a lack of clarity on this issue

42:35

And Within the Southern Baptist Convention, I'll keep being clear about that. Okay, so that it's it is clear

42:42

Yeah, the issue that I have again He's making statements that are defensive

42:48

He's making statements to avoid answering and that is where I kind of have some issue with this

42:55

Okay Let me I mean Let me play from his from the never the

43:03

November 11th briefing where he talks about the fact that You you can't change language.

43:08

You can't play games with language because this is what the Southern Baptists are doing with this issue

43:14

All right So let me play some of the clips from that from what dr. Moller has said about Using language and giving it dual meanings one for the culture and one for the church

43:25

But as we're thinking about the necessity of clarity in the danger of confusion Evangelical Christians need to keep very much in mind that language is never neutral and that's the whole point here

43:36

Now what we need to note here is that the acceptance of that language is actually quite

43:42

Incompatible with the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church But this is not a predicament by any means limited to Roman Catholic schools and institutions because we see some

43:51

Evangelical schools and certainly many other schools with different religious heritage and identity

43:57

Trying to find the same way out in worldview analysis The biggest problem here is the assumption that you can accept language without accepting the new moral reality that the language brings

44:09

Especially this kind of language Okay, so you heard there in those three clips. He's really clear.

44:15

You can't play the games with the language It's just it's not acceptable

44:22

And and yet this is what is going on with social justice. Let me play a three -minute clip of dr

44:28

Moller again at the QA So if you if you take the whole social justice issue and realize the poisoned well that comes from Which is basically the reduction of everything to structural issues.

44:43

It's a more traditionally Marxist argument that With variant forms that aren't so explicitly

44:49

Marxist, but are based upon the fact that morality is not the central issue But structural issues are the are the central issue

44:58

If you take that out and Biblically, let's let's critique social justice

45:04

Then we've got justice and and that's where and there are going to be ongoing discussions that are unavoidable about what

45:14

Biblical justice requires of us And and so I don't when you say where is this going?

45:22

I Don't think there's any way to avoid a lot of these questions And I don't think any of the people who think they're avoiding them are going to avoid them for long one way or another

45:31

I mean we our answer to social confusion cannot be we're not going to talk about this and Especially on an issue like racism

45:41

I mean, I'm confronted with the reality that takes social justice out of it.

45:46

I've got simple justice issues Biblical justice issues that are very close to home.

45:52

I've got to deal with sometimes we don't deal with them until they're brought to our attention, so That kind of public kind of public airing on various issues is going to continue

46:03

I think if we are not biblical and honest about the reality of simple straightforward biblical justice issues then then we're going to be seen as incredibly hypocritical when we do stand for a biblical understanding of sexuality and gender and marriage and Frankly the exclusivity of the gospel and the ontological

46:26

Trinity and the inerrancy of Scripture I don't use any way to avoid these and that's where again

46:32

I'm going to say this is what I've tried to talk about and do in public thinking out loud in public

46:39

For 35 years, and I'll stand on that body. I'm thankful.

46:45

There are very few things. I've had to go back and revise In 35 years is consistent argument and and by the way you're talking about the briefing.

46:52

It's not just about politics I deal deeply in the life of denominations including my own with theological issues

47:00

With with the entire spectrum of the culture, so I intend to keep on doing that But I hope to do so absolutely consistently and absolutely

47:13

Biblically with fidelity and I invite you and all others to interrogate every aspect of my life and show me where I may come short

47:21

Okay, so again that was three minutes of non -answer I mean yeah, yeah, but look at it look at it

47:30

Look at what I've done. Look at what I've done. Look at that. I Don't care what you've done.

47:36

You know why there's We could are you seriously think about this will dr.

47:42

Moeller accept that argument look at what I've done Look at my years of ministry will he accept that from?

47:49

Francis Chan Good point I Mean he did some great things in the past But the issue is the trajectory he's on now

48:02

Yeah, and that's the question being asked the trajectory that he's on now

48:09

Yeah, and he's not answering now He's the issue.

48:15

He talks about clarity, right? But what is the roots of social justice this is the whole reason we have an issue with this

48:24

He understands that you can't play games with the language. Let me play. I'm gonna go back to that episode

48:31

Here's what he says about language being neutral But as we're thinking about the necessity of clarity in the danger of confusion

48:39

Evangelical Christians need to keep very much in mind that language is never neutral and that's the whole point here

48:45

Okay, language is not neutral So can you can you go with having it both ways and use language and control the meaning in worldview analysis?

48:53

The biggest problem here is the assumption that you can accept language without accepting the new moral reality that the language brings

49:00

Especially this kind of language. Okay, so he says that so the whole issue that many of us have and if you watch the founders

49:08

Documentary by what standard you'll see that this is the whole thing What is the root of Social justice.

49:17

Well, dr Muller provides it so if you if you take the whole social justice issue and realize the poisoned well that comes from Which is basically the reduction of everything to structural issues.

49:31

It's a more traditionally Marxist argument that With variant forms that aren't so explicitly

49:37

Marxist, but are based upon the fact that morality is not the central issue But structural issues are that are the central issue?

49:46

If you take that out and Biblically, let's let's critique social justice

49:52

Then we've got justice and and that's where and there are going to be ongoing discussions

49:58

Okay, so he recognizes as we've been addressing what the the foundation the roots of Social justice is it's

50:08

Marxism Right, that's the reason so many people have an issue with it because it's

50:15

Marxism That's the that right. There is the issue that people have been having so when he's bringing this up and he's saying this

50:26

The issue is is that when the Southern Baptist Convention accept this resolution 9

50:33

People are saying yes, but you're you cannot Exactly as he says you cannot say that we can have this

50:43

Marxism without the Marxism No, you can't and and the critical point that that you don't hear a lot of talk about and you know

50:53

I'm not maybe I'm not mince a capable But this is part of critical race theory and intersectionality in the cultural context

51:02

It has to do with power it has to do with Redistribution not only of wealth but but primarily of power

51:13

Well, we see what happens with that in culture. We have historical evidence from Societies that have tried that from governments that have tried that we've seen the failure that that produces but it is still in the context of Christianity in the

51:30

Evangelical Church when you introduce these concepts it is Fundamentally an issue of power now who has the power?

51:41

well, we defer to the Word of God and the Lord Jesus Christ who is the one who is building his church and These things are outside of the boundaries of what?

51:52

Scripture compels us to But you don't hear a lot of talk about power and and he's sort of referencing it there with the issue of Marxism with the

52:02

Poisoned well with the AC atheistic worldview that that comes from the systemic and institutional

52:08

Issues that this victimhood and racism and all those things Produce.

52:14

Well, that's cultural. But what's the answer in the church? Where is the clarity on how this affects the church?

52:20

What's the church's biblical response to be because he knows that you can't avoid social justice.

52:26

He says that listen I don't think there's any way to avoid a lot of these questions And I don't think any of the people who think they're avoiding them are going to avoid them for long one way or another

52:36

I Mean we our answer to social confusion cannot be we're not going to talk about this

52:42

But that's exactly what he's doing when it comes to the Southern Baptist Convention Well exactly and and our response to the culture is not primarily

52:52

The way I understand and understand scripture I'm not to go to them with issues and answers for their social justice concerns because those are just Placebic effects that you might produce by some sort of philosophy

53:06

What I'm told by our Lord to go to the culture with is his gospel That's where I need to address culture, that's the solution to the problems

53:17

Yeah That's exactly right because the Look, let me let me play him on this because he's he ends up saying it's hypocritical

53:27

If we don't address the so the justice the social justice, right? We're the whole argument is he's not addressing it within the

53:35

Southern Baptist Convention within the church Well more specifically within the

53:40

Southern Baptist Convention, this is where I think well Trying to have your cake and eat it too is thus a metaphor for trying to have it both ways

53:50

It is impossible. I agree Yeah, this is so this is what he said about being hypocritical

53:57

I think if we are not biblical and honest about the reality of simple straightforward biblical justice issues then then we're gonna be seen as incredibly hypocritical when we do stand for a biblical understanding of sexuality and gender and marriage and frankly the exclusivity of the gospel and the ontological

54:19

Trinity and the inerrancy of Scripture and he's a 100 % correct and that's why people have been calling him out

54:29

Because he has been and I don't mean to sound like I am bashing on a godly man

54:38

But no, that's not the point. Yeah, it seems Hypocritical when he's being asked direct

54:47

Questions and he's spending all this time giving Non answers.

54:53

Look at who I platform. Look look at what I've done for these years. Listen what I do on the on the podcast Look at all this stuff then just answer the question

55:02

The question is not About the issues outside of the church

55:09

The question was within the the church specifically But more specifically the

55:16

Southern Baptist Convention for him he's not answering it and this is why he's seen as hypocritical and And you know if you listen two weeks ago to the podcast

55:27

I did with Virgil we play Ben Shapiro With Gloria Allred and what ends up happening when her arguments fall apart she she

55:38

Was making arguments. He starts making emotional arguments when she started getting challenged and couldn't support him

55:43

She starts saying well, sonny, you're you're not old enough, you know She starts getting kind of in his face and being like, you know

55:50

You're not old enough to remember what it was like before abortion was legal, you know, that's chronological Gnosticism.

55:55

Yeah, that's ridiculous And so, you know you end up seeing a little bit of this

56:04

When when he was saying like look who I'm platforming with look at you know I'm not gonna be forced into a

56:10

Twitter conversation. I don't like being handed a statement I I don't believe he was handed a statement and said here sign this

56:16

I mean, I I know that many people that are have a much bigger platform than the one

56:24

I have saw that statement. I know some of them who had it and their names are not on that list

56:30

They didn't sign, but I know they had input Yeah, there's no doubt that if if dr.

56:37

Moeller a man of his standing Probably I mean one of the most astute and savvy intellectuals in What we'd call our camp if he wanted input he could have had input

56:52

Well more. I mean, let me make it even stronger You know what? A lot of us were trying to do when we were working on this and and the person who was kind of spearheading it

57:02

You know, we we signed a letter asking dr. John MacArthur to to get behind this and join us with this

57:10

Well, dr. MacArthur and dr. Moeller are friends or at least they were friends before that Shepherds conference

57:16

Yeah, and as was mentioned for 20 years But maybe that ended but do you really think

57:25

That dr. MacArthur didn't go to dr. Moeller or that if dr. Moeller saw that statement and he said to hey

57:31

John Let's talk about that. I don't like the way this is worded. I'm not sure about this Can we change that you really think that he wouldn't have listened?

57:40

Yeah, are we to expect that it was just hey Al it's on the internet sign it.

57:46

Yeah, really you think that's how it went down if it if that's not the way It then went down for someone like me. I'm sorry.

57:51

That's not the way it went down for dr. Moeller But but listen to go ahead. No, I was gonna say that's what you

57:56

I think told me to go do I said go sign it now. But listen, listen to this clip 30 seconds.

58:04

Listen, he I won't be forced to answer but The room let me play two clips.

58:09

Actually, I'm gonna play a clip we opened with about Ambiguity and then I want to play a clip where he's saying

58:15

I'm not gonna be forced to answer listen to these two Now as we put these two together Christians understand the responsibility to be clear to be always ready to give an answer and to give that answer

58:27

Directly with clarity not with confusion and we understand that even as confusion is to be avoided and clarity is to be

58:34

Demonstrated we understand that the worst form of confusion is an intentional confusion an intentional ambiguity

58:42

Okay, that's from the briefing November 11th. Here's from the Shepherds conference before that briefing.

58:47

Do you not see that? that the evangelical movement even the even our constituency the most conservative end of the evangelical movement is becoming a

58:59

Little more susceptible to that, but Phil you've known me for a long time, you know The answer to the question is yes

59:05

But I'm not gonna be forced into a situation before thousands of people in which I have to say I'm going to do it your way

59:11

Sorry, okay. I'm just not and if that's a fellowship amongst us

59:18

Know that clip was very telling Because he's saying look you should just know that the answer is yes

59:25

Well, the fact that he's asking it says that he doesn't know the answer is yes within our conservative

59:32

Christian Fellowship, right? Okay. He's he Phil was being articulate with that and I'm sorry, but dr.

59:40

Mohler got snippy there. I mean he's even saying that This is an issue of you know fellowship.

59:46

I wish you know right now. Yeah. Yeah You know By virtue of the fact that the question is being asked

59:55

Respectfully There's a need for clarity The question would not have been asked if we all knew like dr.

01:00:06

Mohler suggested filled it And Snippy yeah,

01:00:12

I would probably agree with that Yeah, I mean and that's that's the thing.

01:00:17

We're saying there should be clarity Dr. Mohler said you cannot have your cake and eat it, too well

01:00:26

Just as with last episode. I think at this episode what we see is that dr

01:00:31

Mohler is trying to have his cake and eat it, too And we wish he would have clarity within the convention that we believe he wants to lead

01:00:42

If dr. Mohler wants to be president of the Southern Baptist Convention, even if he doesn't he's still a leader

01:00:48

He's still a president of a Southern Baptist seminary. Yeah, he's still a major force within a

01:00:53

Southern Baptist movement What what he says carries a lot of weight with them, and I'm sorry if if he will not answer for the specific clear question being asked about the social justice movement within the

01:01:12

Southern Baptists or within those that would be the conservative Christians That is as he says right here

01:01:20

I think if we are not biblical and honest about the reality of simple straightforward biblical justice issues then then we're gonna be seen as incredibly hypocritical when we do stand for a biblical understanding of sexuality and gender and marriage and frankly the exclusivity of the gospel and the

01:01:42

Ontological Trinity and the inerrancy of scripture. All right. So there you go. I basically

01:01:48

I'm saying I believe he's being hypocritical Because he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

01:01:57

I Wish I wish I didn't have to say that But I think he's refusing to answer and not answering and he said it

01:02:08

We've played these clips for you guys so you can hear him in his own words He clearly understands it when it comes to the social justice outside of our

01:02:16

Conservative circles, but we're not asking about that the question is within the circles the

01:02:23

Southern Baptist Convention has now accepted the language of cultural

01:02:29

Marxism but they say they can do it without the identity and the history and the meaning of the culture when they use critical race theory and Intersectionality and dr.

01:02:41

Moeller on his briefing on the November 11th said you cannot do that You cannot take the words and change the meaning it fails

01:02:52

Well, but that's what the Southern Baptists are doing and that's why we bring this up Because this is something where dr.

01:03:00

Moeller if anybody has some say to pull into here. Dr Moeller can can carry a lot of weight with the

01:03:07

Southern Baptist Convention To change this You're absolutely right and and we can't forget not

01:03:14

The the influence of the Southern Baptist Convention there were what 15 million members their footprint in our?

01:03:22

wing of conservative evangelicalism is huge and and what they affirm what they disaffirm these things have trickle -down effects throughout the rest of what we'd consider our

01:03:35

Constituency a fellow believers who think theologically and biblically like we do

01:03:41

That's why it's so important for dr. Moeller to make Clear in the

01:03:47

Southern Baptist Convention where it stands what he stands for what? He would define as social justice biblically

01:03:56

He needs the clarity Without the ambiguity without the confusion and to give a direct answer

01:04:04

I mean he says we must always be prepared to give an honest answer And if he doesn't do it within the

01:04:10

SBC that has enormous negative implications for the future of Conservative Christianity conservative evangelical

01:04:20

Christianity, you know what I'm looking forward to bud sir Next week when we have plenty of you know interviews from people from g3 and we get into some more enjoyable topics

01:04:35

But I say home Yeah, I mean

01:04:40

I there are times we're doing episodes like this is Necessary we we do not do it here just to get clicks clearly

01:04:50

I say clearly because if we were doing that we would title this something you know

01:04:55

Al Moeller in his sin, you know and and be really accusatory and stuff like that.

01:05:00

No This isn't for clickbait, this is because we have a concern Absolutely.

01:05:06

No, we pray for dr. Moeller. We love dr. Moeller. We want to see him

01:05:13

Exert the influence that he has Biblically with the truth that he knows and that he's expressed in multiple different places

01:05:20

We want to see him do that within the context of the SBC Because it carries such weight throughout the rest of evangelical

01:05:27

Christianity Yeah, and this is why we we do it we do it because We do want people to be aware of what the issue is because you know if it just like dr

01:05:40

Moeller does on his briefing he warns people of The issues he sees that the

01:05:46

Christian community needs to be aware of and we're doing the same thing here This is a little bit less of a teaching time that we usually do but we do

01:05:55

There is some things you can see here I mean, I'm we were trying to show you as dr.

01:06:00

Moeller's not answering things. How do I identify that? So that you could recognize things like that But we do hope and and pray that the

01:06:09

Southern Baptist Convention will will stop straying From biblical truth into cultural

01:06:15

Marxism because it will be the destruction of the Southern Baptist Convention I mean those that that took it from liberalism and turned it conservative are the very ones that are not standing up for The truth now that are gonna bring about the liberalization again of the

01:06:32

Southern Baptist Convention Who's gonna stand up for the conservative voice now? That's that's the question.

01:06:39

I would hope it's consent Silence is consent, but I would I wish that dr.

01:06:44

Moeller would stand up and not have try to have his cake and eat it, too so bud

01:06:52

We're gonna strive to make today internal day for the glory of God, but you know what? What's that?

01:06:58

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