The Great Shepherd's Undershepherds - [Hebrews 13:17-20]

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, "'But we did not yield in subjection to them "'for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel "'would remain with you.'".

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Submission as a Mark of Christian Life

Well, if it was appropriate to market a church, how would you market Bethlehem Bible Church? Of course, it's a wrong question to ask because we're not to market the Lord Jesus' church. He builds it and we don't wanna be in competition with him.

But I wonder if we had to market a church, what would we say this place is all about? Who could come up with a slogan or something to maybe get a lot of people to attend? What if we tried this tact, Bethlehem Bible Church, a place that highlights submission?

We love to submit. We're a submitting people. Everything about us is summarized by the word submission. How many people do you think would attend? Do you think a lot of unbelievers would come and visit?

That is a bad marketing ploy, yet it is a constant theme in the Bible. Christians are known for their submission, their submissive hearts, and you can see it in lots of different places in the Bible. Did you know children are supposed to submit to their parents?

Wives are to submit to their husbands. Employees are to submit to their bosses. Citizens are to submit to the governing authorities. Believers are to submit to one another. We as Christians are to submit to Christ Jesus, and you're even to submit to your local church leaders.

The problem is sin gets in there and destroys everything, and you don't have to look very far these days, do you, to see that people hate authority, and therefore they want to not be submissive. You look at the world, and I could summarize it by judges.

Every man did what was right in his own what? Eyes, that's our world. Yet to reject authority in those places where the Bible talks about authority is to reject the Lord Jesus himself, because he is the one who gave the authority.

So I'd like you to take your Bibles today and turn to Hebrews chapter 13, and we want to talk about this doctrine of submission. For 12 chapters, he has been extolling Jesus, and you all know this, it's the fifth gospel.

I like what William Perkins said, and I could say this of the book of Hebrews, that his job as a preacher, and therefore all preachers' jobs, should be to preach only one Christ, by Christ, to the praise of Christ.

I think that's what the writer of Hebrews has done. This is, I think, sermon 128 in the book of Hebrews, and I think there's one more to go, 129. Anybody making through all of them? Okay, some have, yes, good.

I see that hand. It always gets a laugh, doesn't it? It's so dumb, but yeah. Thomas Adams said, Christ is the sum of the whole Bible, prophesied, typified, prefigured, exhibited, demonstrated to be found in every leaf, almost in every line, the scriptures being, but as it were, the swaddling bands of the child Jesus.

In other words, the Old Testament even speaks of the Lord Jesus, and Hebrews chapter one has shown us that very thing. And so we're looking at who Jesus is, but since he is such a great high priest, there are consequences, there are things that we do in light of, because he's so great, how do we respond?

And this is the section on how to respond to this great high priest. If you read the Bible without looking for Jesus, you're reading it wrongly. J .C. Ryle said, let it be a settled principle in our minds in reading the Bible, that Christ is the central son, S-U-N, of the whole book.

That's this book. But since Jesus is preeminent, how do we live in light of that? And so we come to this passage, and it's not what Alexander White says, sanctification by vinegar, whereas we just are reluctant as we try to obey and live holy lives and pure lives.

No, no, instead of by vinegar, it should be by chapters one through 12. This is the God who loved me and gave himself for me. This is unconditional grace, free love from God that I'm forgiven, and this is my captain, this is my hero, this is my savior.

Well, of course, I want to obey him. And you mean to tell me I don't even have to perfectly obey for him to keep loving me? Yes. That should drive you to say, do you know what? A God who could be that merciful to me, a God who could give me so many privileges, I ought to respond with obedience and with love.

Don't see this God and do what Satan did, twisting the minds of Eve and Adam to somehow think that God is limiting through these laws, that somehow you've got to obey the strict taskmaster. No, not at all.

So we come to chapter 13, we've seen quite a few commands, maybe with overarching thoughts of verse one, let brotherly love continue. And we find ourselves now down to verses 17 through 19. And it's pretty simple.

The two commands we're gonna look at today are obey and pray. And they're both directed toward leaders. What about leaders? What do we do? Obey and pray, two easy ways to think about it since they rhyme.

Let me read verse 17, 18 and 19 for you this morning. Hebrews chapter 13. Obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning for that would be of no advantage to you.

Pray for us for we are sure that we have a clear conscience desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you the sooner. Now, when I was a kid, we watched all kinds of police type of movies.

Remember Telly Savalas, the bald detective? What was his name? Kojak, people remember that. I remember Dennis somebody in McLeod maybe. Remember McLeod? I remember Robert Blake in Beretta. My dad loved these movies.

But he didn't really like Columbo very much. But I ended up loving Columbo because he would observe things. He had a keen eye. And remember Columbo's famous words. He'd be about ready to walk out the door.

And just before he shut the door, he'd put his disheveled kind of hair suit and person back in the door and say what? Just one more thing. You guys are a product of your culture. So am I. People listen to this in 40 years ago, Columbo.

He'd give this inescapable line of questioning because he'd been so observant. So we're gonna just observe this passage today kind of Columbo like. So if you'd like an outline, just a series of Columbo like observations.

Just observing the text to make sure we understand what it says. Because here's my concern. I'm concerned that people in my position use this verse as a stick. That's what I'm concerned about. This verse is true.

And this verse is for you. And it would be better for you if you obey this verse. But it's not going to be my place to take this thing and hammer you with it. So I want you to observe and I want you to see for yourself what it means so that if somebody comes along in my position and wants to abuse you or make you do things you ought not to do, you will know for yourself, oh, I see this verse and I can understand it.

So we're gonna look at obey first, then we're gonna look at pray second. So the observations will be for the first two verses. Observation number one, when it comes to verses 17 and 18. Did you notice?

And I'll start off every observation with this. Did you notice? So you can see for yourself. Did you notice this is given to a congregation in the form of a sermon, not given in the pastoral epistles?

It's given in the form of a sermon to a congregation not given in a pastoral epistle. Well, what do I mean by that? Let's read it one more time and find out obey your leaders and submit to them. This is the preacher preaching this sermon to an established church for they are keeping watch over your souls and we'll have to give an account, let them do this with joy and not groaning for that would be of no advantage to you.

This is an exhortation, chapter 13, verse 22 to a congregation. Let's phrase it this way. I think this is easy to understand. A true or false? Wives submit to your husbands. True, it's Ephesians chapter five.

Who's that directed to? It's to the wives. Wives submit to your husbands. The direction to the husbands is of course, love your wives like Christ loved the church. Do you know I've been married to Kim for 31 years now and I don't think I have ever said to her, you submit to me.

She'd probably look at me like I was joking or something. Like I was being sarcastic. You submit to me. See the command is given to the wife. Is she to submit to me? Yes. Am I the one who's supposed to say, now you start submitting to me.

That's God telling her. Husbands love your wives. Wives shouldn't say, you love me. No, no, that's the charge of God to the husband. Similarly, this preacher, by the power and inspiration of the Spirit of God, is telling the congregation, you ought to do that.

It's not in a pastoral epistle, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus, where it's told to one of the pastors and elders and overseers, you know what, if the people don't obey you, you tell them to obey using my Word.

No, no, that's not how this works. So remember, this is a sermon given to a congregation and the congregation should obey this. But like wives, they're the ones commanded to make sure they're submitting.

It's not something for the husbands to enforce. It's the wives who are accountable to the Lord. And the same thing goes true here. You are to obey your leaders. And it's a command to you, but it's not a mace for me.

It's not a weapon for me. It's not some kind of sword for me to wield. Good leaders, good shepherds don't do that. Observation number two. Did you notice that the congregation is told to obey their local church leaders, not anyone else in church bodies, ecclesiastical bodies?

When the text says obey your leaders and submit to them, they're watching over your souls. We're not talking about civil authorities here. We're talking about local church leaders. We call them elders.

And it says you're supposed to obey your leaders, plural, and submit to them. Now, the first thing that should pop in your mind is it doesn't say obey your leader. Why? Well, because your leader is fallible.

Your leader has blind spots. Your leader is sinful and he needs other leaders, a plurality of leaders in a local church called elders. So we, like a good marriage where you have a husband strong in this area and a wife weak in the other and a wife weak in another, strong in another area.

I almost gave the wife two weaknesses and the husband's two strengths. But you know what I mean? We compliment one another. There's always second sermon. So too with elders. It's your leaders. There's a plurality of elders.

It's not just Pope Mike, whatever I say. I'm tempered by and helped by the other men. In addition, when you look at this passage, your leaders. You say, well, the Gospel Coalition tells me something else to do.

No, no, your leaders. That celebrity that I like to listen to on YouTube tells me to do such and such. No, no, it's your leaders. Your leaders are accountable for your soul. The people on the internet are not.

This is hard in a social media age. I've even had people, I'll give you the illustration because it happened a long time ago. We used to have the American flag up here. I love the American flag. But I said to the people who set things up, I said, put it in the back.

And there it is. It wouldn't bother me if the American flag wasn't anywhere in this place. Why? Because we're not talking about nations here. We're talking about people coming to worship the Lord Jesus and America has nothing to do with it.

While I'm glad to be free, while I'm glad my father served, I'm glad you served. This has nothing to do with America when it comes to corporate worship. So somebody here wrote to grace to you and John MacArthur and Phil Johnson to try to get them to tell me to put that flag back up.

Do you see it? I don't even want it in the sanctuary, but I get it. I mean, maybe we could have all kinds of flags up here. Maybe somebody's from Iran and they've been persecuted by somebody in America and they walk in and they're thinking about America.

The list could go on. The point is simple. You're not to obey every other leader who's got every other idea. They don't even know you. You're supposed to obey your leaders here. Wives, you're to submit only to your own husband, not YouTube hub husbands.

Of course, them and no one else. It doesn't say obey majority rule. If I wanted to try to argue for congregational rule, I wouldn't use this verse. I'll tell you that right now. Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in every church, Acts 14.

Paul directed Titus to appoint elders in every city. Observation number three. Did you notice that God's word transcends culture and modern thoughts about authority and leadership? This writer, this preacher could care less that the world is anti-authoritarian, anti-establishment.

Don't tread on me. Don't tell me what to do. The text is clear. Obey your leaders and submit to them. I mean, I can kind of get the feeling that when people attend weddings that I officiate, that I might actually say the word, will you submit to him?

I mean, whenever I say those words, there's like a frog in my throat. It's just so weird because I know there's a bunch of unbelievers there, but it's true. Think about the world today. The world today says, we don't want anybody to tell us what to do.

Think about what the world also does. It's postmodern, which is there's no real truth. Your truth is your truth. My truth is my truth. And I'm not gonna submit myself to your truth when you say submit and obey.

That's not my truth. Your truth isn't authoritarian because that's not my truth. I'm the authority over my truth and my life. And so don't tell me what to do. So anti-authoritarian and postmodernism put together in a stew makes it poisonous.

Joseph had a dream. And when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. He said to them, hear this dream that I dream. Behold, we are binding sheaves in a field and behold, my sheaf arose and stood upright.

And behold, your sheaves gathered around it and bowed down to my sheaf. How do you think they responded? His brother said to him, are you indeed to reign over us? Or you indeed to rule over us? So they hated him even more for his dreams and his dreams.

Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said, you're thinking they've learned his lesson. Behold, I've dreamed another dream and the sun and the moon and the 11 stars were bowing down to me.

But when he told it to his father and his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, what is this dream that you've dreamed? Shall I and your mother and your brothers indeed bow down ourselves to the ground before you?

And his brothers were jealous of him, but the father kept the same in mind. And so what did they do? You're not gonna rule over us. We'll kill you and let's just sell you into slavery. I think of the Lord Jesus in the parable of the 10 minus.

In the middle of it all, the citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him saying, we do not want this man to reign over us. The culture, anti-authority. The culture, submit to no one but yourself.

The Bible, it will go well with your soul, dear congregation, if you submit. Question number four. Did you notice that this verse isn't too hard to understand? Well, it might be hard to obey. It might be hard to follow.

It's easy to understand. There's no Greek kind of construction that's weird. There's no theological problem. There's no manuscript evidence that maybe it's a kind of majority rule. No, no, it's super simple.

If I was gonna joke around a little bit and make sure the kids could understand, guess what the Greek word for obey is in English? Obey. Guess what the word for submit is? Submit, it's simple. Both are present tenses, ongoing.

That means it's just a constant thing. Obey means assent to another's direction, do what they say. This is again in the church setting, not civil setting. And submit means to kind of yield my opinion.

Obey is the external, I'll do it. And submission is I have a good attitude when I do it. It's like the kid, you tell him to clean the room, I'm cleaning my room on the outside, but on the inside, I'm not cleaning my room.

It's just like this rebellious attitude. So with actions and with attitude, just yield, just do, just go along in church operations. When something interferes with what I think is right, I just go along with what the elders say.

You say, but what if they're autocrats? What if they're monarchs? What if they're dictators? We'll get to that. Obey, antonym, disobey. I won't do what they say. Submit, antonyms or equivalents, a bad attitude, fault finding, criticism.

And by the way, I can say it because I think I'm probably the chief of this. Fault finding is the easiest game in the world. Everybody can do it. Everybody's great at it. And everybody under people in submission can find fault with leaders.

Even in Pradeep's pastoral prayer today, I thought it was very insightful and I didn't tell him to pray that, but just think if we were the leaders of the government, would we know exactly what to do?

Just think if we had to lead a church, would we know exactly what to do? What if we had to lead a marriage? Would we have to do better? Would we do better things? When we're under submission, it's easy to find fault, but we're called to have an attitude of submission, a spirit, a sweet spirit that just says, I disagree, but I'll go along anyway.

This happens a lot, by the way, disobedience to this verse. If the leaders say, well, you know what? This person needs to be disciplined and put out of the church. And then other people say, well, yeah, but you know what?

We're supposed to not have fellowship with them, but I will because the leaders don't understand. I see that as a real possibility of popping up. Well, let's keep going on in these Columbo-like observations.

Did you notice that there are other Bible verses that talk about submission and when not to submit? In other words, there are other verses in the Bible that talk about this topic. What if my leaders asked me to sin?

What if my leaders tell me to do something wrong? Shall I obey them? If you turn to Acts chapter four and five, let's just make sure we all see and it's very clear. Dear Christian, my authority ends with the Bible.

I can't tell you to obey me or obey something about me for my good. I can tell you what the Bible says and therefore you should obey that. My authority ends with the Bible. Really, my realm is simply the Bible and how the church is run.

That's all that I have for authority. You will hear me say things like this if you come to me for advice. Well, you know, the Bible says this and you ought to do that and let's pray that God would help you do it.

And you'll hear me say things like this. If I were you, if you were my son, this is what I think you should do. Those two things are different, are they not? That's how you should be giving advice is, you know what, here's what the Bible says and it's very clear that you should do this, that and the other.

But, you know, just using my wisdom and I'm older, but I'm not perfect. I've asked other people. My counsel is this. That's just counsel. Authority is different. Acts chapter four, verse, let's pick it up in verse eight because it's interesting.

Remember, when it comes to the government, wives, remember when it comes to your husbands, children, when it comes to your parents and dear church members, when it comes to your leaders, there's a time not to obey.

Then Peter, Acts 4, 8, filled with the Holy Spirit said to them, rulers of the people and elders, if we were being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, let it be known to all of you and all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God has raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you.

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone and their salvation and no one else for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Now, when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, they perceived that they were uneducated, common men. They were astonished and they recognized that they had been with Jesus, but seeing the man who was healed standing by them, they had nothing to say in opposition.

But when they had commanded them to leave the council, they conferred with one another saying, what should we do with these men? For what a notable sign has been performed through them is evident to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

We cannot deny it. But in order that it may spread no further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to anyone in this name. Verse 18, so they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.

Now, by the way, if I stop there for a second, the great commission has been given by the risen Savior, the Lord Jesus, to preach the gospel and to make disciples. Peter and John answered, verse 19, whether it's right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot but speak of what we have heard and seen.

They further threatened them. Then they let them go, finding no way to punish them because of the people for all were praising God for what happened. And then, you know, down in chapter five, verse 27, this theme continues.

Verse 28, let's pick it up there. They're set before the council. We strictly charge you not to teach in this name. Yet you filled Jerusalem with your teaching. You intend to bring this man's blood on us.

But Peter and the apostles answered, we must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as leader and Savior to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

So dear Christian, if I tell you to do something and it's sinful, please don't do it. I don't have an authority to tell you to sin. If your government tells you to sin, you don't do it. If your husband tells you to sin, don't do it.

Children, if your parents tell you to sin, don't do it. Years ago, I thought I would push my, I was gonna say push my luck, but I just thought I would try a little experiment. So I was taking the kids to a private Christian school that they used to go to up in Lunenburg.

We stopped it off on Route 13, just past your house. And there's a church there and it has a statue of Mary in the back. So I had my van, my Ford windbag, a windstar, and said, all right, kids, everybody out of the car.

All hopped out, they were little. I said, okay, just run over to that statue, bow down, and instead of singing, he is exalted, just sing one stanza of she is exalted and hop back in. They're like, what?

Daddy, no. I said, did you not hear me properly? Daddy. I said, children, obey your parents. And then one of them popped in. In the Lord, for this is right. I said, good job, get back in the car. People that try to make you sin, people that try to abuse you, using this as some kind of stick, they have to be removed.

They have to be confronted from the church and removed from the office. I shouldn't have to say this to people. This is not some kind of, you obey me. This is not my church, this is the Lord's church.

We're under shepherds, we have to be very careful. Heavy-handed leadership is sinful. Micromanaged leadership is sinful. You can't go camping without an elder present. Who talks like that? People do.

You are to examine what I say like a good Berean Acts chapter 17. You are not to blindly follow me. I'm gonna be dead one day. There are gonna be a bunch of other people who are gonna lead. You're responsible to obey and submit, yes, but not in some type of what was back in the 60s and 70s, like a shepherding movement, some Boston Church of Christ, ICC movement, no.

How do you recognize heavy-handed authority? Well, when pastors quote this verse a lot, outside the sermon, of course, I'm just trying to teach you. When leaders say, you know what, you need to unquestionably give me loyalty, I'd be careful.

When people say, you know what, you need to tell me your private sins, you ought to be careful. Of course, if you're gonna confess a sin to a pastor, that's fine and dandy, but if I'm trying to get information out of you to hold it against you later as an accountability partner, you ought to be careful.

I'm not to lord it over you. That's 1 Peter chapter five. Think about Jesus, the merciful, kind, wonderful shepherd, and then now I'm gonna be a harsh shepherd that tries to rule over you, heavy-handed use, quoting Bible verses to get you to do what I want you to do.

I have no authority but a delegated authority. Jesus is the chief shepherd. I'm an under-shepherd, a sinful one at that. My authority is limited by what the Bible says. Can you imagine Jesus? It says of Matthew 18 of Jesus, all authority, he said, has been given to me in heaven and earth.

Jesus has authority. There's no authority like that. It's complete authority, total authority, absolute authority. And when you watch Jesus, he's a man, the God-man, who says, I didn't come to be served, but to serve and give my life a ransom for many.

That's Christ-likeness. I looked up a few things online that should frighten you. When people try to isolate you from friends and family. When, if you're upset at them, they turn it back on you. You're the one that made me angry.

Trying to control who you spend time with, who you can hang out with, afraid to tell them anything because you might get yelled at or get negative comments. They try to make you dependent upon them. By the way, that's all true of leaders that are bad, but I didn't get this from leaders that are bad.

I got that from manipulating boyfriend websites. I don't want to be in a manipulating boyfriend to you. By the way, I'm too busy. I have other things to do. Wow. But sadly, there are people in churches that want to control.

And the good thing for us is, at least for me, I just rest in the sovereignty of God. It's just okay to go, you know what? The Holy Spirit's alive and well in their life, and I'd like them to do this, that, and the other, but they'll learn, they'll grow.

The Lord was so patient with me. The church has been so patient with me. Salvation is instantaneous, and holy living takes a long time. Third John, I've written briefly for the church, but diatrophies, who likes to take the lead or the preeminence and put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority and refuses to accept my suggestions or listen to me.

So when I arrive, I will call attention to what he's doing, his boiling over and casting malicious reflections, as one translation says. Let's put it this way. If I try to tell you or any leader tries to tell you, your loyalty to God is shown by your loyalty to me, that's wrong.

I can't use that verse for that. Whole loyalties to me, more than your husband and your wife? That's scary. When 1983 came along, there was one of the most popular songs and it topped Billboard Top Tracks for nine weeks.

And it was the song by the police with Sting singing, Every Breath You Take. You know that song? Best-selling single of 1983, Every Breath You Take and Every Move You Make, Every Bond You Break, Every Step You Take, I'll be what?

Watching you. And you think it's a love song, but he said it's about government control and oversight. I don't wanna be watching you in terms of that. I wanna watch over your soul and I wanna teach you and I wanna protect you and I want to equip you.

The Careful Oversight of Elders

Observation number six. Did you notice what faithful shepherds do? If you do notice, it'll make obedience and submission easier. In other words, do you realize how hard of a job it must be to be an elder or a pastor?

What's the text say? Verse 17, for they're keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account. They watch, they're concerned over. The text says they lose sleep over. That's what it means to stay awake.

You're at your post, you lose sleep. A watchman in the house of Israel like Ezekiel in chapter three of Ezekiel. Caring shepherds, conscientious shepherds, they lose sleep over people. If you ask every one of the elders, have you ever had sleepless nights because of something that's going on in the church?

You won't even have to finish your sentence for them to tell you. Calvin said, the heavier the burden they bear, the more honor they deserve. For the more labor anyone undertakes for our sake and the more difficulty and danger he incurs for us, the greater are our obligations to him.

Good advice. Alertness, watching, pay attention, present tense. I mean, think about it. When people walk in the door and they smile and they're new and they're visitors, they could be the next pastor of the church or they could be a false teacher.

I mean, I don't size them up, but that's in fact true. So since they do have to give an account and since it is difficult, we want to submit to them that you are under the elders and the elders are under the Lord Jesus.

That's the idea. Now the last name Brown is common in Scotland or at least used to be. John Brown of Haddington was called John Brown of Haddington. He was a preacher because there are so many John Browns.

Which John Brown are you? Of Haddington. And there was a ministerial student who had graduated from Edinburgh and he met John Brown and he was ashamed that he had such a little church. You know, you go to the Shepherd's Conference.

Hi, what's going on? What's your name? Oh yeah, where are you from? Massachusetts, Bethlehem Bible Church. What's the very next question they ask? How big's your church? Oh, 3 ,000. Here's what John Brown said to that ministerial student who didn't really like 34 people only at his church.

I know the vanity of your heart and that you will feel mortified that your congregation is very small in comparison with those of your brethren. Be assured yourself on the word of an old man that when you come to give an account of them to the Lord Jesus at his judgment seat, you will think that 34 was enough.

So true. Observation number seven. Do you notice that it's actually to your detriment if you rebel? If you don't obey, if you don't submit in the right areas? It's actually on you. What do you mean by that?

Mike, verse 17 at the end. Let them do this with joy. That is, keep watch over your souls. Not with groaning, that's the opposite of joy. For that would be no advantage and you'd think it would be to the leaders, but it's being no advantage to you.

That's fascinating. This joy comes from when you rightly obey and rightly submit to the leaders. Well, how can that be? By the way, let me give you one illustration. When we teach you something and then you do it and you tell us, you know, the Lord's been working in my life and he's been using the Bible studies on Friday night or he's been using that discipleship group or that ladies group when we get together and I see this truth and I understand it and now I believe the right things and I'm doing the right things.

If you teach somebody and they tell you that, how do you respond? I'm thinking, man, this is great for all those sleepless nights that somebody gets it, somebody understands, somebody had enough fear of God instead of fear of man to preach the gospel to their friend and they evangelized and now that person's saved and all these other things.

I'm thinking, man, I get great joy. That's true, I get joy. But you also get joy. How do you get joy? What's he saying when it says, let them do this with joy? That's my joy and not with groaning. What's groaning mean in Greek?

Here's what it means. If you don't obey and you don't submit, here's how leaders respond. Maybe I don't know it externally. I'm sophisticated enough being from Nebraska and all. Moving out here, by the way, from Nebraska, well, via California, I thought I'm coming out to Harvard.

These people will never have me around. Brooks Brothers suits required and everything else. By the way, I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. But when I'm dead and gone, whoever the next pastor is, would you treat them like you've treated me for all these years?