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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602. Or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White. And good afternoon and welcome to The Dividing Line.
My name is James White. It's our Thursday afternoon edition. And we invite your participation today at 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. We already have one caller online and we invite you to participate today.
It is toll free and that always makes the program move along a whole lot better. We get all sorts of interesting topics and so you are invited to partake and participate in the program today. 877 -753 -3341.
In the Deseret News for yesterday, Wednesday, October 22nd, 2003, there is an article, Pastors Condemn Preachers' Acts. They Say Such Evangelists Do Not Represent Mainstream. This is by Kerry A. Moore, Deseret Morning News.
Nearly two dozen local evangelical pastors gathered near the LDS Conference Center on Tuesday to condemn the actions of street preachers who desecrated clothing sacred to members of the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints earlier this month.
The Reverend Greg Johnson, president of a coalition called Standing Together, and by the way, that's actually Greg Vettel's, changed his name, but that's the individual to whom the book by Dr. Blomberg, How Wide the Divide, was dedicated to.
Said the actions of Lonnie Percival, Utah director of the Worldwide Street Preachers Fellowship, and boy do I know him, and other street preachers who profess to be Christian evangelists do not in any way represent the Christian gospel that he and other group members believe in.
The street preachers held protest signs and used bullhorns to deride Latter-day Saints during the faith's semi-annual general conference in early October, and at one point reportedly spat and stomped on garments considered sacred to church members.
Two LDS men were arrested after taking the garments from the street preachers and one was charged with assault. The provo man has since received donations for his legal defense fund. Those who would profess to be followers of Jesus Christ cannot and ought not needlessly offend those with whom they might disagree theologically, the Reverend Johnson said.
The group came together en masse to speak firmly against any actions that forward activities of hate and discrimination as qualities associated with genuine Christian witness or behavior, he said. Those who profanely used the Mormon garments to mock and ridicule the Latter-day Saint community in ways too egregious to mention owe an apology to the Mormon community and we call upon them to repent publicly of their activities, he said.
Percival, who told a Deseret Morning News reporter on Tuesday that he planned to attend the press conference, didn't show up. I hadn't seen that part before, but that doesn't surprise me. Those guys are only brave in numbers.
They know they could never hold their own alone in any discussion on any topic unless they had a bullhorn, that would be about the only way they could do it. Anyways, Ken Mulholland, president of the Salt Lake Theological Seminary, said his institution has had the privilege of being picketed by Percival and company after decrying the street preacher's tactics on earlier occasions.
Oh, don't we know that? Don't we know that? I bet you they didn't have anybody show up with specific signs about him, however. And anyone dressed with a bald thing on their heads, they'd look bald and sit there and say, I love Gail Kiplinger!
Anyway, the Reverend Johnson said various pastors who are members of Standing Together had tried to speak to Percival individually, but, quote, he was very disinterested and refused to hear us, end quote.
Ah, there's a politically correct way of saying it. Talking to that guy is like talking to a wall, and that's exactly right. I've tried it, been there, done that. Absolutely no interest in hearing from anybody.
No reasoning going on there at all. Public discussion of the street preacher's behavior earlier this month has resulted in numerous letters to the editor of both Salt Lake City newspapers. For many who are not LDS decrying the actions as unchristian, the street preachers have repeatedly stated God has sent them to speak truth that others are reticent to say, urging Latter-day Saints to either turn from their faith or burn in hell.
The group wanted to make sure the public distinguishes between lone rangers like Percival and the wider evangelical community, which condemns his actions, according to the Reverend Bill Young, of Salt City Rock Church.
Now, Salt City Rock Church? I've heard of Salt Rock, and that's weird. Anyways, the best way to support and encourage a person is through prayer rather than confrontation, according to Jeff Nellermoe of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church.
LDS Church spokesman Dale Bills offered a written statement in response, quote, we are grateful to Reverend Gregory Johnson of Standing of the Ministries and Associates representing a large number of evangelical congregations for their considerate and timely expression noting the importance of religious tolerance in our community.
We agree that religious differences should be discussed with gentleness and respect to avoid needless offense to others. Twenty-three pastors gathered for the event, and a total of 36 congregations were named as supporters on a press release provided by Standing Together.
The clergy said they represent not only themselves, but the sentiment within their congregations throughout the Salt Lake Valley. The Reverend C. Kruger of the Mountain View Christian Assembly of God said, while Orthodox Christians and Latter-day Saints probably will never agree on many points of theology, if we disagree, we need to do so agreeably.
As a minister here for 15 years, he said he has learned his LDS neighbors love God as much as we do, and both groups do it in their own way. The incident at LDS General Conference has come up in several informal conversations with members of his congregation, the Reverend Kruger said, and they are concerned about it.
Last Sunday morning, when he told his congregation about the press conference and desire to stand publicly against the street preacher's behavior, quote, they literally exploded in applause, end quote.
Well, I'm not surprised this has happened, of course. That is why we have not been tracking the General Conference now for a full year. These individuals truly do not have any concept of what the gospel is.
They are mean-spirited, nasty individuals. They know little about Mormonism. They know little about the scriptures. They are not in obedience to the scriptures, and they are there for only one thing.
They are a scourge on the Mormon people because they have truly ended any possibilities of the witness that took place there for 18 years. They will be held accountable for their actions, but they do not care.
They only want to get on the camera. They want people to scream at them and to get angry at them and things like that. That's just the way they are. They are a very sad group of people, and they need to, I would say, need to be called to repent, but that's repent as in come to know Christ.
They have no respect for the word of God or anything like it. We said that a long time ago. For some reason, some folks thought we were being too harsh, but I think by observing their behavior, it is very obvious what they're really all about.
I'm sitting here looking at some pictures on another website, pictures taken of the signs that were held outside the conference. There's this guy standing there, man, he's got a look on his face. I tell you, it's bad.
Burning in the bosom from the father of lies. Well, that's true, but you need to give it in the proper context. Then we've got our standard fellow, one of the guys standing there with the temple garments in his hands, just filled with the love of Christ and a massive amount of ignorance.
Jesus saves Joseph and slaves, except they put N and then there's a space before slaves. It's one word, guys. You might want to spell your signs correctly. Then you've got an old fellow standing out there.
Trust Jesus, repent, read Bible. Oh, there's the word, though. Sorry, couldn't see it there very well. Read the Bible, that's good. Let's see, let's scroll down here. Oh, this is a good one. Same group because he's got the know the Bible thing on the back.
One's got a sign with Acts 16, 31. Then we've got the gold plates of Moron, M-O-R-O-N. I told you I sat there. In fact, we played for you probably a year ago now. This guy yelling, it shouldn't be Mormon, it should be Moron.
That's the depth of their understanding. Here's good, read the King James Bible. Then it's got none of the others, of course. They're King James only. Oh, LDS, liars, deceivers, and seducers. That will get a lot of good conversations going.
Just unbelievable stuff. That's the way these folks are. As I said, they are a plague, a scourge upon the Mormon people because they are responsible for ending meaningful outreach to speak to the LDS people in a way that can communicate the truth to them.
It is a sad thing. Anyway, we have talked about them before. We never did do the big article when they did the stuff about me and Lonnie Percival when they had the guy with the bald cap. We should have done a big article on that and provided those pictures because when people see these folks, when they see what they're really all about, they can understand that this type of activity is just simply inane.
But somebody is supporting them. Somebody is giving them the money to do what they're doing. I wish they'd stop, but that doesn't show any signs. In fact, I was really hoping. I was really thinking along the lines of, well, it's been a while.
We haven't been out there. Maybe they'll get tired of it. They'll go away. Maybe next April we can think about going up to Salt Lake City and doing the conference again. Then I started. I even saw a story on them.
In the brief few minutes we were in the hotel room long enough to watch TV before we had everything to do with the debate, I saw the coverage of them. I was like, well, they're coming back in force, and they come from all over the place.
It's just a sad, sad thing that these are the people. People look at them and they say, see, that's how you all are. That's how everybody out there is. Even if they went away, it would take a long time to sort of flush the garbage out of Temple Square.
From now on, many of those people will be very convinced that that kind of mindset is what anybody else who would show up, even if you're not carrying signs, you're respectful, your literature shows knowledge of Mormonism, you know your Bible, you know your faith, you're obedient to the faith, all that doesn't matter.
All the work that was done for 18 years, gone, with King James-only wackoids, and that's what they are. They're King James-only wackoids. I do not apologize for that. All you've got to do is watch the video of these people, and you'll go, wow, man, they let them out of the institution to do this?
Why did they do that? Just keep the door locked, and all will be well. So anyway, unbelievable. We have colors, and I've only announced it a couple of times. We have colors. So we start at the top of the alphabet, I guess, and let's talk with Aaron in California.
Hi, Aaron. Hi, can you hear me? I sure can.
Okay, it's dropped down a little bit. I am a reformed Calvinist. I'm a Mormon reformed Calvinist. I'm just Mormon in the books, though. Huh? I mean, even though I'm not a fit, I'm not.
Oh, your name is still on the rolls. I am a reformed view. Okay.
Some background on my question. I've become a Calvinist, basically, through a lot of reading through your work and testing it with logic very thoroughly, and I have not really found anything that could really come against it, but I have found something recently, somewhat several months ago.
I have a friend that is Greek Orthodox. That miracle they do at the end, it goes around, and like the 33 years Christ lived, it becomes real fire. They say everyone else has tried to do this, which they only give an Armenian reference, not Armenian, but in the form of Orthodoxy, Armenian.
Armenian. Armenian. They bribed someone in like the 16th or so century. I think I got my reference wrong there, but it's somewhere around that time, and they failed to produce it, and they're claiming, you see, we're the real church because we can do this, and everyone else is wrong.
They've converted people by this alone. It's a hard thing to combat with logic alone, since my only thoughts are if it can be proved that the Greek Orthodox have, in the past, had contradictory scripture, like in the case of St. John who tried to reform the Orthodoxy, and they condemned his beliefs.
The best way to argue against the Calvinists is when he's dead, I guess. They condemned his beliefs about 30 years or so after he died. I'd really like an opinion on this, because I have found no apologetic work on what reform of the view that only sure they have a….
I mean, I really don't think you're going to find that in most of the writings of the best leading Orthodox theologians. They're not going to base it upon that. Someone on the channel just popped up a URL.
Of course, it comes from Orthodoxy, and it talks about this. I had never even heard the Orthodox people that are on the radio here in Phoenix ever even mention it. It's not like I listen to them all the time, but there is a URL that was just popped into the channel that I'm looking at about the Holy Light is not only distributed by the Archbishop, but operates also by itself.
It emits from the Holy Sepulcher, having a gleam of a hue completely different from that of natural light. I'm not sure how you'd measure that, but it sparkles. It flashes like lightning. It flies like a dove around the tabernacle of the Holy Sepulcher and lights up the unlit lamps of olive oil hanging in front of it.
It whirls from one side of the church to the other. It enters to some of the chapels inside the church, such as, for instance, the chapel of the Calvary. That's spelled strangely. Maybe it's something else.
I don't know. It lights up the lamps. It lights up also the candles of certain pilgrims. In fact, there are some very pious pilgrims who, every time they attended the seminary, noticed their candles lit up on their own accord.
It sounds to me like some of the appearances of Mary, too. This divine light also presents some special peculiarities. As soon as it appears, it has a bluish hue and does not burn. At the first moments of its appearance, if it touches the face or mouth or hands, it does not burn.
The appearance of the holy light is an event which occurs every year in front of thousands of visual witnesses. Nobody can deny it. On the contrary, this miracle can reinforce those who have lack of faith.
Well, this, of course, is from...
It plays on the emotions, and I...
Well, yeah, this is from a book entitled Differences Between the Orthodox and Roman Catholicism. So it's part and parcel of that very thing. I'm looking at pictures here, and I can guarantee you that the place where I have seen very, very similar things to this is on the various Marian websites when we have the unrefutable testimony of thousands of people that Mary appeared.
I remember when Mary was appearing in Georgia for a while. Thousands of people smelled roses, and there were no roses within miles of this place, and this was clear evidence that Mary was appearing, and this woman was a prophetess, and all the rest of this wonderful stuff.
I've never looked at this until now, and so I have absolutely...
It's not unique, because I thought it was, so... Well, no.
Every religion has its... Shall we call it the Benny Hinn factor in the sense that Roman Catholicism takes the cake. I mean, alleged miracles related to relics, related to items like that, related to Fatima, Our Lady of Guadalupe, all those kinds of things are just a dime a dozen.
I mean, there's just zillions of them, and in fact it got so bad that at the time of the Reformation, Erasmus joked, and some people say it was Luther, I think it was Erasmus, though, joked that you could build an entire ship out of all of the genuine splinters of the real cross that were scattered around Europe, and you could go in and view these real splinters of the cross of Christ and obtain indulgences and miracles and all the rest of this kind of fun stuff, and there's nothing new about that at all.
I mean, pretty much every religion has that element in it, and it's not meant to be dealt with in a logical way, because until a person could go there and examine this themselves, how could that influence anyone who lives on the other side of the planet, that this somehow means that this particular religious group presents the truth of God, especially Orthodoxy has a problem here, because Orthodoxy by nature eschews systematic theology, and as such they believe that the truth is primarily communicated through the liturgy and the prayers of the church, and so upon what logical basis could the existence of a miracle somehow substantiate anything other than, well, the high priest is good at creating fire or something.
I mean, how could that then be relevant to, for example, whether the Nicene Creed should or should not include the phrase from the sun in regards to the procession of the spirit. There's no logical way to attach that.
And the fact that people have been doing this since the 4th century every single year, I hear it alleged.
Well, that would be a little bit tough to do when the Muslims were running around whacking everybody's head off, but again, I'm sorry, there just isn't any real evidence that that has taken place since the 4th century every single year and all the rest of that stuff, but...
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Yeah, I mean that's... It'll be interesting to see if someone pulls up some responses to it. I've never heard it from anybody before, so...
But I would propose a way to deal with people in a simple contradictory area of their belief, and you just can silence them on that issue. I don't think any miracle can validate following... And you know, there's no basis to talk to be saved over the years because then you just believe whatever you want then.
But I think there needs to be a valid response. We'll try and look at miracles as a way to validate it, validate a reason to follow faith. I think no matter how many miracles you have, if there's a simple lie that stands in the way, a contradiction like I've seen in Roman Catholicism with Honorius, I believe, and others, I think no matter what the miracle is, I would advise people to stay away and follow it.
Well, I think the best response in regards to miracles is found in the words of Abraham to the rich man. In Luke chapter 16, when the rich man said, and he said, I beg you, fathers, you send him to my father's house where I have five brothers, in order that he may warn them so that they will not also come to this place of torment.
But Abraham says, verse 29, they have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. But he said, no, father Abraham. But if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he said to him, if they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if someone rises from the dead.
And obviously, rising from the dead is a miraculous event. And here the scriptures are saying, no, if they will not listen to the scriptures, then all the miracles in the world are not going to change them.
Now, you do need to recognize one thing. Claims of miracles can be extremely attractive to an unregenerate person, a person who is either a religious hypocrite, a person who is playing at religion. They can go from one religion to another.
You can get converts like that. There's no question that claims of miracles are very, very important for them. Marian miracles and things like that are real big in Roman Catholicism as far as trying to call people into that particular fellowship and faith.
But the point here is that to be truly persuaded in the spiritual sense requires that work of the Spirit of God that opens the hearts and the minds to listen to Moses and the prophets,.
To give obedience to the Word of God. That's what I wanted to bring up. I mean, I cannot say I don't believe in miracles. I think watching God's work in the world, and I think the Reformed have that very miracle of where we don't try and convince anyone.
It just springs out of people. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do. That is our own miracle. I mean, that's the miracle we can witness to, and it keeps us going, even though it seems like just a hopeless missing because no one likes Calvinism.
We're an old, hated group. We are so hated. I am so hated among my own kind. I'm even looking for a church. But, you know, I mean, even with Calvinism, where it says, by all means, oh, we shouldn't be preaching because we can just sit back and say we're preaching.
I believe miracles do have, it is a miracle from God or another place, and I really have to confess, I do believe that the thing is going on in Jerusalem, but I'm going to have to set it down that either this comes from seeing the contradictions in Greek orthodoxy.
This miracle does not validate who there are one single bit. It does not validate that there's a true church because they have a doctrine of contradiction,.
And that's just my testimony. No, there are all sorts of alleged miracles going on. I mean, I include a story when I speak on the Marian dogmas of the miracle of Mary's appearance in the windows of the Ugly Duckling car building in Clearwater, Florida, just a few years ago.
I have pictures of this, and soon they had 30 ,000 people filling this place. In fact, Ugly Duckling had to sell the place to a Marian group, and there's this water stain on a set of windows from where a palm tree had been.
When they cut the palm tree down, they had used reconstituted water to water this thing, and it had stained the window. It looks like Mary. And so now they've bought it, and Mary supposedly appears and talks to people, and they have masses there.
I mean, that kind of thing is going on all the time, and it is not obviously something that is relevant to the truth claims of a group. Especially in that kind of a... Yes, a Marian palm tree is what it is.
I'll be interested in seeing how many URLs end up in my mailbox by the weekend from folks who track stuff down, because we have a lot of really geeky people who listen to the webcast, so I'm sure that there will be some more stuff out there, and probably some responses to it and things like that.
But I appreciate you bringing it up, Aaron. God bless you. All right. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. 877 -753 -3341. Boy, that's a... I've never heard of that one before. And given that I have talked to a few Orthodox folks, that's not one that's most interesting.
I'm surprised I hadn't heard it before. Anyway, let's go back to California, I guess. Yeah, the first one was in California. Aaron was in California. Let's go back to California and talk with Johnny. Hi, Johnny.
How are you doing, James?
How are you doing, sir? All right. My question is related to the Bible answer.
Actually, it's on right now here in Phoenix, so it's really difficult for me to listen to both, yeah.
Oh, okay. Well, I think you might enjoy the call coming up in about 15 minutes, then.
Well, you know, I really am not going to be able to be listening to that in 15 minutes, then.
Well, if you get... But anyway, there was the Baptist Calvinist that called in, and how the Southern Baptist Convention... Right. ...and told him his perspective... Right. ...that indicates that regeneration...
The one thing that puzzled me is that he addressed Romans Chapter 8. He went on to theology. Right. He basically doesn't need a man. But what I'm asking is, are non-reformed people like Hank and others denying the unregenerate man?
Well, good question. I don't think that I'm violating any agreements here to announce. I've mentioned this before. I may have announced it before. I don't know. But mark your calendars. I'll ask that question on December 16th when I will be on the Bible Answer Man broadcast to discuss this very issue with George Bryson and Hank Hanegraaff.
I obviously will intend to press the issue of man's inabilities, especially in response to libertarian free will. The fact that u dunatai is used of man, not dunatai, that we should be concerned about the free will of God before we're concerned about the free will of man.
For without the free will of God, there can be no free will of man. And I will press Romans 8 .7 -8. I'll press compatibilism. I'm going to be talking about chatty Cathy dolls and divine rape too and demonstrating those things are not properly representational of Reformed theology.
And so I imagine that program will go a minimum of two days and most of the time that I'm on, we go three hours. So that would extend for three days. I don't get real good responses to be perfectly honest with you from most of my non-Reformed friends on those passages.
Generally what I get is when I present exegesis of a text, we end up with, it can't mean that because of my philosophical construct over here. It can't mean that because of what I have concluded in regards to the fall of man, even though the scripture doesn't say anything about these issues.
These are my philosophical constructs and they rule over exegesis rather than the other way around. So that has been my experience and so generally the response to Romans 8 .7 -8 is either to take sort of a view that, well, no, we're talking about carnal Christians there, not about those who are crying the flesh and are not regenerate or generally just you run off someplace else.
What about his before the dog starts barking? One of the things that I'm not sure, and then there's the decree to end the Baptist by the way, that God works all, is that this, I guess maybe. How would you respond to that?
Well, of course I respond to that by exegeting 2 Peter 3 .9 and demonstrating that it does not say anything of the kind. Same with 1 Timothy 2 .4 and Matthew 23 .37. So I'll present those. Whether I'll get any exegetical response to any of those, I really don't know.
I sort of doubt it because again, that's just not the way the argument goes. Without 2 Peter 3 .9, 1 Timothy 2 .4 and Matthew 23 .37, the libertarian position collapses in a heap. They have to be taken to have a certain meaning and that meaning has to be assumed.
And so I will obviously be pressing those issues when it comes up because it will very, very quickly. But I would obviously point out that God's will is that no one kill and yet we also have Acts 4 saying that God's hand predestined the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Now you may not like having to accept both those two things and figuring out how it works, but that is there. It is there in the text of Scripture and so far when those issues have been raised, I haven't heard any responses to them being offered by George Bryson or Norman Geisler and certainly not by Dave Hunt.
The responses that are offered anyway, at least Dave Hunt tries I suppose, but I think most folks can see the response really has no substance to it and does not actually address the text and does not really answer the question.
The standard response is to go to another issue. Go to issues that are not necessarily going to force you to actually deal with the text as it stands. Which is what Hank did. I want to ask you something.
Years ago, the real issue in the...
Sufficiency of grace, not the necessity of grace.
Right. And you mentioned that and Tim is pointing out that Hank didn't agree with you. Now do you think that...
I don't know. I do not know what kind of interaction there is going to be at that level. My assumption would be that I'll primarily be interacting with George Bryson. However, I would assume, I'm certain that Hank would be aware of the fact that I know what his objections are and that George would be presenting the same objections.
And so basically I would put it this way. If there is an exchange in which I am directly addressing the assertions in regards to Chatty Cathy dolls, the claim that the only alternative to libertarianism is that concept that you just pull a string and out comes what's pre-programmed, which obviously does not even begin to accurately represent the concept of man being created.
He has a will but that will is enslaved to sin and things like that. If George Bryson does not provide a rather strong defense of the position that is Hank's himself, then I would expect that Hank would make comments on that and would enter into the discussion.
But I have no way of knowing because I've not been in a situation where I was specifically addressing an issue where I knew that Hank was in disagreement and had made the public statement that he doesn't believe that Reformed Theology can answer these questions.
And so I don't know what that's going to be like and we'll see what happens.
Well, I would imagine you would because I don't think that it's Norm Geisler.
That is the major influence on this issue with Hank. I don't think it is. I think the major influence on Hank at this point is Lutheran in form, not Geislerian.
Okay. Well, thank you very much, James. All right, thank you. God bless.
We skipped our break because we have so many phone calls today on such a wide variety of topics. None of them that I can see right now. Oh, we do have Jason in the United Kingdom. I will be able to get to talk to an Englishman again.
But I'll wait.
Oh, really? Well, I didn't. No, it isn't actually. It's nearly.
Oh, okay. Well, I was actually just looking down the line of folks and someone who will remain nameless just threw me a complete curve. But you're on now, so we'll get to everybody.
Go ahead, sir. Yeah, I was wondering if you could help.
Well, the term pisteuo can certainly be placed into a context where something like obedience can be indicated by the context and issues about continuing to believe would be an issue of grammar. That is, is it used in the aorist?
Is it used in the present tense? For example, in the Gospel of John, true belief is always in the present tense. It's ongoing in contrast with the aorist tense, which is used for surface-level belief.
For example, in John chapter 2, there are people who believed in Jesus, but Jesus was not believing in them. He was not entrusting himself to them because he knew what filled the heart of men. And the Jews in John 8 who had believed in Jesus, aorist, not present tense, not ongoing, by the end of the chapter are picking up stones to stone him.
And so there's that whole issue of what form is it in. And really the issue is not so much the meaning of belief. It's a very rich term, and there's nothing within Reformed theology that would begin to lead anyone to believe that it needs to be some simplistic thing to believe in the perfect nature of salvation.
The thing your friend needs to understand is that saving faith is a gift of God. It is a work of the Holy Spirit, the ability to have it. It is something we do, but we cannot do it unless we are enabled to do it, and it becomes the natural thing that the regenerated, changed heart does.
And it will continue on until the end of the work of God within us, because it is God's work within us. It's not something that just finds its origin in us. And so the ideas of any type of obedience, there's a passage in John 3 where some translations render Pestuo as obey.
And that's one issue, but that's really, in fact that's John 3 .36, by the way, in case you were looking for that. But that really isn't the issue as far as this issue with your friend is concerned, because it sounds like your friend is still operating on the foundation that, well, belief is something I have to somehow create within myself, and therefore if it has to be ongoing, I might fail.
Exactly, and that's what I've seen. I've asked him why.
Well, it sounds like your friend has very little understanding of the gospel of Christ, to be perfectly honest with you. What I mean by that is, really, does he really, really believe that the work of Christ is so completely dependent upon him, that the death of Christ, the ascending of the Holy Spirit, the entire work of the Trinity is dependent upon his ability to somehow hold on tight long enough to make the whole thing work.
I mean, that is truly, you have to wonder if such a person does not fall into the warning of Galatians 5. They're seeking to be justified by things that they do before God, and they don't have the joy, at the very least, of being able to trust in a perfect Savior, and probably if they're to that point of recognizing and openly claiming that the gospel is really dependent upon their accomplishment, you have to wonder if they've ever actually heard the gospel of grace itself.
I would... Yeah, but if this faith is a human act that God has no control over, and it's something that he has to keep cranking out, that renders the sacrifice of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit totally subject to human activity.
And at that point, I don't know that... I'm not sure what churches you're referring to, but there's a fundamental problem here. He has a very man-centered gospel, not a God-centered gospel,.
And that's what he needs to find out about. He's sort of very into Jacob Prash type.
Well, that's a shame. Even Hunt wouldn't take that extreme of view. And, you know, I just take those folks of John 6 and I hold their feet to the fire and say, how could Jesus say the words he said here if what you believe is true?
Because I don't see that following. How can Jesus say that he will lose none of those that are given to him if, in point of fact, it's really not up to him one way or the other? That kind of language just doesn't make any sense in light of what is being said there.
Okay? Thank you very much. Oh, thank you very much, Jason. Thank you for calling. I really wasn't expecting to be on that quickly, you know, but it was put on there very quickly, and so that's just...
Okay. Well, thank you very much, Seth. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. I've got to do something here for just a moment because as soon as that hits the airwaves, we're going to have somebody who is going to start yammering, and so I just need to take care of that.
Okay. Let's go ahead and let's talk with Bobby in Mississippi. Hello, Bobby. Hey, James. How are you doing? I'm doing great.
How about you? I'm doing just fine. All right. My question is on the KJV only issue. I have a friend that I go to school with, and he brought up something to me the other day that I searched your book, and I didn't see it addressed, and I really didn't know how to answer it.
It's on the John 3 .16, and maybe you've heard it. He made the point that the King James Version has only begotten, while the other versions just have only son, and his point was that Jesus is not God's only son.
We're his sons also, but he is the only begotten.
Well, of course, he's wrong to say that only the King James has only begotten. I'm looking at the New American Stare, and it says only begotten too. The issue, first of all, has to do with the meaning of the Greek term monogamous.
There is no question that as far as monogamous chios, the unique son, that that is applied only to Christ, and in fact John generally reserves the term chios for the son, and he uses technos, technon, for the children of God by faith in Christ.
So it's not a translational issue at that point, because as I said there are many English translations that also have only begotten son. The real question is what does monogamous mean, and should it be only translated only begotten?
I certainly strongly prefer unique son in that situation, because the fact that monogamous, its emphasis is upon the uniqueness of the relationship, not upon the idea of being begotten. Many people have a problem with the idea of Jesus being begotten in the first place, and it does tend to carry a meaning in English that is not as clear as the original term.
I did address the meaning of monogamous, but not in the King James Only controversy. I addressed it, well I might have, I don't remember, but specifically I addressed that in the context of the Forgotten Trinity.
I have an entire section on that in the book on the Forgotten Trinity. So if you want to look up various and sundry resources on the meaning of monogamous, you can find it there. But again, it's not a translational issue, because many translations do that.
The real issue is what is the best rendering of the term monogamous. It's not a textual issue, there's not a variant there, something like that. And if he does believe the King James Only one has it, he's sadly deceived at that point, because there are many versions that have that same type of rendering in it as well.
And so that would be an error.
Okay, well I believe he specifically said that the NIV did not have it. How would you defend the, does it have monogamous?
Well, the Greek text that the NIV is translating obviously has it. It translates it as only, because that's what the term means. It means only or unique. The idea of begotten is an old error that is based upon a misunderstanding of the term monogamous.
The idea was that monogamous means monos, only, and then that the rest of the Greek word is genos, which means to beget. It isn't. It is genos, which means race or type. And so how would you put only type, only race?
Well, only or unique is the best way to render that. And so in reality, the argument is that he's just not understanding what the actual term monogamous means and is arguing for a traditional understanding of a Greek word and saying, well, since the King James has it, nobody else does, which is wrong.
The New American Staron has it. And I don't know why I don't have in my English comparisons here the New King James version. Let me pop it up here. Something tells me that it probably has the same thing.
Let me look here. And New King James, where'd it go? I brought it up and I don't see it. There it is. Yep, only begotten. So New King James has it. New American Staron has it. So he's wrong at that point.
But still, I would argue that the ESV, NIV, the modern translations, are giving you a more accurate rendering of monogamous than the King James is. Well, that's what I needed to know. I appreciate it.
All righty. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. God bless. 877 -753 -3341. I think I've still got another call here, and this would be Joshua in Chandler. Hi, Josh.
Hi. I have a question for you on an old Divine Line topic that you did. I've been going through the old archives for the past week. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry that you've been going through the old archives for the past week. That must be a very difficult thing to do.
Well, I've got a lot of work to do, so I've been very bored. But there was a message that you did on the Purpose Driven Life, Purpose Driven Church CD, yada, yada, yada. I did? Yes, it was around March of this year, I believe.
I think I mentioned something about encountering it in a bookstore. Is that what you're referring to, that I was in a bookstore and I couldn't find hardly any books on theology, but I found an entire row of the Purpose Driven Church stuff because there was this program that was coming up and all the rest of the stuff.
Is that what you're referring to?
I believe it is that. My question doesn't have specifically to do with that. It was a comment that you made on the show, and it's probably hard for me to ask you this because it's quite some time ago.
But you had mentioned that you had seen very few megachurches that had worked out well. Yes. And you also mentioned that you thought that it might be possible that within the New Testament that there was kind of a cutoff point for church membership.
Well, I had mused on the idea that the churches that we see, when you look at a megachurch, what generally happens is you develop a number of small churches within it. In fact, I may have told the story about being a member of a megachurch and how to avoid that very development they would break up the Bible study groups every year.
They would just toss them up in the air and change all of the arrangements so that that natural tendency for the creation of a mini-church within the big church where you knew everybody, you knew who you could go and ask questions of, and the fellowship and all the rest of that stuff.
And I think I mused on the possibility that in light of the existence of house churches in the early church that you would have a similar type of a situation. I mean, gatherings of thousands and thousands of people would be real easy for the Romans to track down in the first few centuries of the church, obviously.
And it just seems natural that people want to know their leaders, they want to have fellowship with one another. And hence, I do know some megachurches, but those megachurches have many elders, those elders are directly involved in the lives of the people.
And you still have, even in those situations, somewhat the megachurch is sort of a level of church above the little church that everybody knows everybody in. It still just seems to be a natural thing.
But I was just sort of musing on those particular issues.
Okay, I was just curious about your statement on that. I belong to a rather large church in the East Valley, and I was just kind of curious as to what that was based upon.
Well, I think, again, in any large church, I think it eventually reaches a size where it's very difficult for any one man or group of men to have a lot of personal interaction, FaceTime, shall we say, with almost anyone.
And so the natural tendency is, if I don't have access to the quote-unquote big pastor, I'm going to find somebody else who is in some form of leadership that is the person that functions, in essence, as my pastor.
Now, there may be some big deal that comes up and I have to go talk to the big guy, but my experience in a megachurch was you only talk to the big guy for the real big stuff, but the everyday things of life, you were dealing with these other people.
And I don't know how that can be avoided. That's just the nature of fellowship itself. Those churches that survive as megachurches generally allow that kind of thing to flourish, but make sure that those who are involved in those sub-positions of leadership are people who are really plugged into the church, they have the characteristics of leadership, and aren't likely to go off and start their own little kingdom, in essence, because that ends up resulting in real difficulties.
Okay, well, thank you very much. Okay, thank you. God bless. You too. All righty. Well, you know, I didn't get a chance to do nearly as much of my English accent as I wanted to, but then when I saw a particular person in the channel having a complete cow, when I did, it sort of broke my heart.
I'm very sad. I must report to everyone, but, you know, I'll get through this. I'll survive that. And anyway, believe it or not, we're going to have two weeks of dividing line in succession. And that's pretty unusual recently.
We've been traveling a lot, but we are going to be here all next week, and Lord willing, we'll be here for the oh, I'm sorry. I forgot. The closing music is going to be coming up here in a second. But I know I mentioned on Tuesday that probably next Tuesday morning is when we would have Jerry Matytix and Eric Svensson on.
I had misread Eric Svensson's email. He's gone all of next week. And so I have sent an email to both Mr. Matytix and to Dr. Svensson, and both had indicated in their emails that the week after that would be fine.
I know Matytix said that he's not traveling in November, and Eric said that he would be available during that week. And so I have asked if Tuesday morning, November 4th, would be best for that, and I'm waiting to get confirmation from both of them.
So I did mention the possibility of next Tuesday morning. That's just not going to work out, so don't freak out about that. But hopefully the week after that, November 4th, is when we will have both Eric Svensson and I read that Ron Tichelli article that appeared in Envoy, and I just cannot wait to hear Eric Svensson responding to it.
It was honestly, the level of this article was, well, I'm really not an expert on Greek, and so I showed these arguments to Greek scholars, and they all laughed. That's the level of response that this article provides.
It does try to argue at least some examples, but it's fairly obvious to me that it was not based upon a reading of Eric's actual work. And so I'm really looking forward to his presentation on that and to his defense of his own doctoral dissertation.
You know, there are ways of defending your doctoral dissertation that are significantly more difficult and more challenging than doing so within the context of your own professors, and here's a good example of it, so keep that in mind, some of you.
Anyway, we will see you Tuesday morning here on The Dividing Line. Thanks to all who called in this week. Thanks and God bless. ...has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries. If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at P .O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069.
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