Anthony Selvaggio Interview

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.

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My name is Mike Abendroth, and I'm your host today. On Tuesdays, I like to talk to Pastor Steve Cooley, and we deal with issues in the local church.

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Mondays, of course, would be a sermon from Bethlehem Bible Church. And then on Wednesdays, I like to talk about books.

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I think you need to read good Christian books. You need to read in general. Some statistics are that college students, only 42 % of college students even pick up another book in their life after they graduate.

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And I want to encourage Christians to read books that will talk about the Lord and His Word, good theological books, theological books that can be devotional books.

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And so today, we're going to talk about a book that I think is going to encourage you because it lends itself to being impressed with Jesus Christ.

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I have on the phone today Anthony Salvaggio, the author of The Seven Signs, Seeing the

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Glory of Christ in the Gospel of John. Anthony, welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. It's great to be here.

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Thank you for having me. You know, I wrote down a few goals of the show today, Anthony, and so these are my goals. And tell me if you think these are good goals or lofty goals or poor goals.

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The goals in this interview are to have our audience and to have our listeners, number one, read the

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Gospel of John for themselves. Number two, as they do it, be impressed by Christ Jesus and to worship

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Him and give Him honor. And number three, to buy your book. I can assent to all those goals.

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All right, well let's just talk just generally about the book of John. Your book is published by Reformation Heritage.

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We'll talk about them in a minute. So often, Anthony, I think people say to unbelievers, which is fine to say, read the

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Gospel of John. Tell us why the Gospel of John would be an excellent choice for the

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Christian to read for himself or herself. Well, I think that,

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I mean, I do agree with the idea of John being a great gateway or evangelistic Gospel for people to use in that ministry.

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But even for Christians, I think it's so important, obviously, all of God's Word is useful to us.

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But the Gospel of John is particularly, John is focused on showing us the glory of Christ. And I think

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Christians, that should be our longing, is to see the glory of our Lord.

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Now, with the amount of chapters and amount of material in the Gospel of John, is there a way that you like to tell folks, since I guess you wrote a book on the

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Gospel of John, you're an expert on it, you wrote the book on it, how does someone approach that Gospel?

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Since it's a large Gospel, systematically to read through, do you have a program that you tell people or a pattern or an idea for reading through the

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Gospel of John so they can grasp its overall content, not just some specific passages?

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Well, I think the book lends itself, it's structured in a manner, dividing itself, really, between this initial part of the

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Gospel, the first 11 chapters or so, focused on the signs of Jesus.

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That was particularly the study and the focus of the book I wrote was on that first section of John and the signs, and then the second half of the

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Gospel focuses more on the glory and the last week of Christ's life, the death and resurrection of our

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Lord. So I think it's worth reading that as it's laid out by John, but to be thinking about using the seven signs of John's Gospel as anchor points for understanding the structure of the first part of the

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Gospel, particularly. So I would encourage people to read it from beginning to end that way, but to particularly looking maybe for some mental hooks by using those signs, the seven signs of John's Gospel.

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Well that's excellent, and that's what you've done in the book with the seven signs. Let me read for our listeners what those seven signs are.

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John chapter 2, turning the water into wine, followed by in the same chapter, cleansing the temple,

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John 4, healing the nobleman's son, John 5, healing the lame man, John 6, feeding the multitude,

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John 9, healing the blind man, and then lastly, John 11, the raising of Lazarus.

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And you have said in the book, on page 107, the seven signs also communicate significant truths about Jesus when taken collectively.

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Talk to me a little bit about that. Yeah, I think one of the great things about seeing Jesus through the seven signs is they operate on so many different levels.

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I talk about three different ones, but I mean individually. They each point us to one aspect of Jesus' character, his person, his work, and they also have this progressive nature where each sign kind of builds on itself and tells us a little bit more, and the climax kind of builds to the raising of Lazarus, which is the final and seventh sign.

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But the collective one is the signs together create almost a mosaic, if you will, of the glory of Jesus, his person, and his work.

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And so I think they show us the nature of Christ, the nature of his work, the glory of Christ.

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I mean, if you think about them all taken together, he's the one who brings the new wine to us.

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He's the one who is the temple himself and who builds this new temple called the church.

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He's the great one who grants life by the word of his power. He can take the lame and make them leap for joy, make people who are crippled spiritually, dead spiritually, come alive and walk in newness of life in the spirit.

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He can feed his people with the bread of life and giving them the eternal life, promising to raise them up on the last day, not one being lost.

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He can give light to those who are blind. He is the light of the world. And of course, he is the one who conquered death.

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And so you take all of those signs together, and you see how they bring together this portrait of Jesus' ministry.

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It's glorious. Anything that we can do to show people the greatness of Christ Jesus, our

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Lord and Savior, I am encouraged by. I remember talking to Sinclair Ferguson, Anthony, and he said, not very many new

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Christian books are about Jesus. And I thought, how interesting is that?

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If you'd like to get a book published these days with a large publisher, maybe you could pick a practical how -to thing, because books about Jesus don't really sell.

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I think that's a sad commentary in the state of evangelicalism. Wow, that's a poignant statement, and it's true.

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I mean, I think that's true, right, in preaching as well, a lot of preaching. People are not content with preaching on the glory of Christ, but rather want some type of useful, perhaps we could say, man -centered preaching of, what does this mean to me, and how does it aid me in my life?

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Certainly we should do application in preaching, but not to the detriment of preaching the glory of Christ.

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Absolutely. Now when it comes to the Gospel of John, I've often told young pastors, when you go to the church and preach through the first book, if you'd like to preach sequentially, expositionally, and pick a book of the

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Bible, I tell them to pick the Gospel of John so they, the pastors, can show their congregations, week in and week out, this great

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God -man, this Word Incarnate, who pitched His tent, as it were, and dwelt among us. And I think you'd probably say amen to that after you wrote this book.

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Definitely. And I think, you know, part of my training is as a lawyer as well, and I just love

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John's Gospel because there is a certain level of forensic nature in his

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Gospel. He's basically making an argument, which he, of course, alludes to at the end of the book, and particularly referring to the signs of Jesus, that these signs were performed.

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And he mentioned that he selected, you know, out of the many signs of Jesus, that he selected these seven to put before our eyes as evidence that Jesus is the

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Christ and the Son of God, to the end that we may believe. So the whole book is really submitted to the jury of the world, saying, behold the

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Lord Jesus Christ, this is who He is, revealed through these signs, and the demand put before us is to believe and to give

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Him praise and to see His glory, the glory of the one and only. And so I think it's a wonderful book that is, by its very nature, structured to penetrate the heart with the truth of Christ.

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We're talking to Anthony Salvaggio, author of The Seven Signs, Seeing the Glory of Christ in the

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Gospel of John. We are No Compromise Radio, you can write us at info at nocompromiseradio .com,

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or you can write the station WV &E here in Worcester, Massachusetts. I think, Anthony, I should probably ask this question, because sometimes

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I assume too much. When it comes to The Seven Signs, when I think of signs, maybe it's my past, but I'm thinking about signs and wonders, power evangelism with Peter Wagner and John Wimber, the very beginning of the book you talk about what signs are biblically, even in the

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Old Testament. Tell the listener how he or she should think of a biblical sign. What is a sign, and do they have to always be supernatural?

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That's a great question. The signs in the Bible are primarily put forth to authenticate the divine messenger or the divine message.

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So frequently, particularly in the Old Testament, we see signs associated with prophets and leaders.

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Obviously, the greatest example would be Moses and the signs that God did against Egypt and the plagues against Egypt, to really show forth the power of God and to also authenticate

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Moses as the spokesman of God and the mediator of the Old Covenant.

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So they're used to authenticate, and they don't have to be miraculous. There are situations in the prophets where signs also come up, where Isaiah walked around barefoot and undressed, and that was a sign to people.

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So it doesn't have to be miraculous. And in the New Testament, we find, again, these signs emerge, particularly highlighted by John's Gospel, in the ministry of Jesus.

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And there, they're used for the same purposes as they were in the Old Testament, to authenticate the ministry and message of the mediator of the

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New Covenant, of the Lord Jesus Christ. And it's interesting, you mentioned about the connection to the signs and wonders ministry, because you see that re -emerge, the signs and wonders, with the apostles.

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Because like Jesus, they come forth preaching, and they are authenticated by God through the works of signs and wonders.

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But we see those end. And I think that what we have is, in the canon, that Jesus says, you know, that he has almost a tension with the signs.

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He wants people to see the signs, not for themselves, but what they point to. But he prefers those who will believe without seeing such things, and he even says that to Thomas after his resurrection, you know, blessed are those who will believe.

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And I think in this age, after the closing of the canon of the Bible, it is not really a focus on the signs any longer.

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There shouldn't really be a signs and wonders ministry, other than to point to the work and signs and wonders of Christ, but that it should be believing on him for his testimony.

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Absolutely. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, sure. No, I'm enjoying it. No, no. I'm glad you're preaching.

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And Anthony is also a visiting professor of New Testament Studies at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, and so before the radio interview started,

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I said to Anthony, I want you to preach about how great Jesus is from the Gospel of John, and I don't want a yes or no answer.

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So, so far, Anthony, great job. Amen. You know, I was thinking about this whole issue of signs and what signs even do today, and then what other people would say.

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They would say something like, well, Jesus has said in Hebrews, through his apostolic messenger, that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, somehow king's ex against everything you've said.

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Why do people want signs today that go beyond biblical signs?

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I think people, you know, I think there's something inherent in our nature to want that type of tangible symbol, and I think some of it comes from a selfish desire.

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I mean, throughout the ministry of Jesus, he's continuing to rebuke, you know, the generation that seeks after a sign, and you know, we do have that now, and people want everything.

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They want the, you know, C .S. Lewis says, God doesn't do parlor tricks, and people want the parlor tricks.

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They want the bells and whistles. They want some type of, instead of the bread of life, which does not perish,

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I mean, even in that sign, Jesus talks about how people, by nature, desire the food that perishes, and so they get caught up in seeking after what cannot give them life.

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And you know, when you're driving down a road and you see a sign that tells you your destination is ahead, you don't want to stop at the sign, think you've arrived, you want to go to the destination.

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All of what Jesus did in his signs point to him as the destination. So I think anything we see in the

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Church, if it's not driving us to Christ, if it's not doing that, then it's a distraction to us.

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Well, that's excellent, I agree with that. Let's talk about some of the signs that are found in the

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Gospel of John. I like it that you said this on page 13 of the book The Seven Signs, it is a journey that begins at a wedding and ends at a funeral.

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So let's talk about that first sign in particular. That chapter, I probably like the most, maybe, Anthony, because I think

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I learned or relearned a few important things. Let's talk about that first sign at the wedding, and there's a woman there at the wedding.

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Give us an overview of what's happening there and why this sign is important, and why you think it maybe even is the first sign in the

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Gospel of John. Yeah, it's extraordinary that the King of Galilee, it's easy to read that as kind of like, oh, it's an interesting story about Jesus going to a wedding, and we often, in the

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Church, end up having debates about that text over whether Christians should use alcohol or what kind of wine was it, did it have alcohol in it, and it's just, it's unfortunate because it's such a glorious inauguration of the ministry of Christ in this relatively mundane setting of a wedding at Canaan, but it's extraordinary what he unleashes there, and particularly demonstrating that he has come to give the fullness of the truth of God's plan, and particularly to eclipse, if you will, the emptiness of first -century

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Judaism, what it had become. And that's evidenced in the whole account by Jesus using those

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Jewish ceremonial waterpots. You know, the declaration is that they have no more wine, there's this emptiness, there is no joy, we know the wine is used in the

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Old Testament as a symbol of joy, the symbol of the Messiah, and Jesus takes these waterpots of ceremonial

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Judaism and turns them into the new wine of the new covenant. And in that, he's declaring about himself that he is the one, the

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Messiah, the one who brings wine, the one who brings a new order to the world, so it's a profound declaration of who he is.

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And in the midst of that, he also, we see his whole focus being on his work and the will of his

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Father, even in the interchange with his own mother, Mary, where he basically tells her, you know, we don't have anything in common at one level.

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You know, when she comes to him and says, you know, they have no more wine, he says, woman, what do I have to do with you?

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And he's not being rude there, he's saying, you know, my hour has not yet come, I am here, my mission is to serve the will of my

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Father, and I'm not to be ordered by you, you need the new wine that I'm going to create.

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And even in there, you see the tenderness of Jesus evangelizing his own mother regarding who he is.

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That sounds like that could be a Friday show for us. I like it in the book,

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Anthony, on page 19, you say, as commentator Gary Burge notes, they have no wine is not simply a comment by Mary about the panic of the wedding's host.

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It is a theological statement about Judaism that is now meeting its

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Messiah in his very first miracle. Then your words, Anthony, in the first sign,

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Jesus was declaring the end of Old Covenant Judaism. That's pretty amazing when you just stop and think about it, you are so right when it comes to all the debate about wine and how much alcohol, and you know, was

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Jesus rude to his mother? This is the key point, isn't it? Yes, it is.

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Clearly, it could be missed so easily in all those other distractions, you know.

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Jesus is declaring what Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 5, 17, therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

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Old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new. And he demonstrates that through a sign.

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Well, I enjoyed it when you said on page 22, unlike Old Covenant Judaism, which has run out of wine, the ministry of Jesus is brimming over with an abundance of wine.

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The old has gone and the new has come. Does Don Carson and Costen Berger, do they agree with you on this particular view of John chapter 2?

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Yes, and I would certainly, as I do in the beginning of the book, give them an acknowledgement, but also would encourage anybody interested in reading deeper into John to plumb the depths of both

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Dr. Carson and Dr. Costen Berger's works on John. They both have excellent commentaries available, and Dr.

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Costen Berger has written a new book on the theology of the letters and gospel of John. Rich, wonderful, and I stand upon their shoulders and their scholarship.

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I am indebted to them. Well, if anyone would like to read Anthony's review of that book,

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A Theology of John's Gospel and Letters, you can go to Reformation 21, a great blog,

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Reformation 21, and read that article by Anthony, January 2010, discussing that larger book.

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I think Costen Berger's book is 600 and some pages long. Let's keep moving. I don't think we can get through all the signs,

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Anthony, but let's go to the second one, the cleansing of the temple, and talk about that a little bit.

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Why is it significant? Why should readers understand that this sign was given to us out of all the signs that Jesus did?

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Of course, on John 20 there have been many. Why was this particular sign here, and it's almost like a punctuation mark in our minds.

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We need to know what this sign was for. Yeah, this one falls right on the heels of the wedding at Cana, and is a great juxtaposition of Jesus dealing with the social setting, and then now he's in the centerpiece of the temple, and the temple authorities, and here he comes, having just declared through the wine that old covenant

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Judaism is dead, where does he go? He goes to the temple, to the very figure of pride, and really the nucleus of first century

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Judaism, and there he declares that that isn't the temple over there, those bricks.

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He says, I am the temple, essentially, and he says to a bunch of confounded

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Jewish leaders that if you tear down this temple, and of course John tells us editorially he meant temple of his body, that he would raise it up in three days, and so in that sign he declares his own death and resurrection, again at the inaugurating point of his ministry, so he uses that to show forth that he is the temple, and it's a great image if you think about it, that temple, of course we know was torn down, the temple of stone, but the temple of his own body is destroyed,

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Jesus raises it up again, and he also goes on to build and engage in the greatest temple building project ever, in building and constructing the new covenant church, which of course we see

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Paul using that imagery, that we are a temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we become, through union with Christ, the temple of God, which is a glorious revelation in the new covenant.

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We're talking to Anthony Salvaggio, author of The Seven Signs, a great book that talks about the

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Gospel of John, and one of the reasons why I'd like you, the listener, to read this book, it helps you see these signs, and helps you see them in order, so you can capture this.

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Even in chapter 2, the links there that Anthony has been talking about, I think are crucial, especially if it's a larger book that you're trying to read, like the

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Gospel of John, how to see these things, and the Lord has gifted Anthony to help us, the church, and therefore we have a book like this.

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Tell me a little bit about Reformation Heritage Books and your relationship with Joel and Jay there, and I think they're a great publisher, how great is it to just publish a book on the topic that you want without them trying to get rid of all the theological nuances?

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They are incredible folks, and I've so enjoyed working with them because of that very fact. Their mission, first and foremost, is to glorify

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God through a publishing ministry, and you have the liberty when working with them to write about the glory of Christ, and they're not going to come back and tell you, you know, you need to water this down so we can sell 10 ,000 copies or whatever.

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They're going to say to you, they're going to challenge you theologically and say, you know, is that really the right point there? So I had a wonderful experience working with them, and I'm so glad to see, you know, they originally published a lot of reprints and Puritan classics, and it's a wonderful thing for people to be reading, but they've just kind of started publishing some more accessible, more modern treatments of subjects, and I'd encourage folks to go to their website.

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Dr. Beeky, he is a tireless servant for Christ, and Jay Collier, they're a great worker.

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Another book that's come out by them recently is John Fesco's Rule of Love on the

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Ten Commandments, a very similar accessible treatment that's faithful to the

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Orthodox faith about the Ten Commandments. I'd highly recommend that as well. Well, we're having the privilege today to talk to Anthony Salvaggio, The Seven Signs on Reformation Heritage Books.

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Maybe, Anthony, the final quote that we'll say today, because I've got about 30 seconds left. Page 49, you quote

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John Owen, and you say, Remember Owen's warning. If you are satisfied with an imaginary Christ, you must be satisfied with imaginary salvation.

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I am thankful that you've written this book so that we can see from the Gospel of John who the real

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Jesus is, not just a God of only love, although He is a God who loves, not just some kind of grandfather figure, but this

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God who is glorious, holy, just, gracious, faithful, etc. And I'm just thankful that you came and talked to us today on the program.

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Well, thank you so much for having me. It was a delight. Well, we've talked to Anthony Salvaggio. You can get the book information on our website,

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NoCompromiseRadio .org. God bless you. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's Word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 10 .15 and in the evening at 6. We're right on Route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff, or management.