News Roundup: Good News at Samford, What Is a Nation?, & Kevin DeYoung on Christian Nationalism

Welcome to a News Roundup and the Podcast’s Method

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter Podcast, I'm your host, John Harris, for a bit of a news roundup, I guess, today. Things I've had on my phone that I thought, well, I should talk about this, and I haven't gotten around to it, and today's the day.

We'll talk about a number of things, currently, even things that are happening right now on social media related to Christianity and social justice, of course. And we're going to actually, at the end, I'm going to play, it's a cold read, as some people call it, but it's, I guess, a cold listen.

I'm going to listen to a five-minute Kevin DeYoung clip on Christian nationalism. We'll see what he has to say on that topic, but we're going to listen to it together. It's fun to do that sometimes. Most of the time, though, I'll tell you what, I really like to know what I'm getting into.

I like to know ahead of time, I like to have all available facts, I like to have a paradigm that makes sense of those facts, so that I can then give it to you, so that you know, at least, you have the information you need to navigate an issue.

In my mind, that's what I try to do on this podcast, because there's so many slanted narratives out there that give you incomplete information, and it's agenda-driven, and it doesn't mean I don't have agendas, it doesn't mean God doesn't have agendas, it doesn't mean the Bible doesn't have agendas.

What it means, though, when I'm using the term agenda, is specifically a use of unequal weights and measures, an attempt to deceive, a suppressing of information that doesn't fit a certain narrative, in order to make you think something.

And that's one thing that I don't intend to ever do. And when I do it, if I do it on this podcast, I will apologize. And there's been a, I can count it on one hand, but there's been a few times I've gotten something wrong here or there, I didn't have all the information, and I'll come out and I'll say, hey, let me clarify something, this is, I didn't know about this, and here you go.

But in general, that's what I intend to do. And so I want to let you know, at the front end of this podcast, there are a number of things I've sort of teased that I haven't gotten to, I'm still doing them.

I probably got like six irons in the fire right now, as far as, I've been still slowly going through the Tim Keller book, Engaging Keller, which talks about a lot of things, it's actually very eye-opening.

I was pretty surprised at how unorthodox, or at least innovative, many of Tim Keller's views are on things not related to social justice, but even just core Christian doctrines, like his understanding of sin and of hell, and other things, the Trinity.

I'm also going through right now, the mini study on the federal vision issue, it's not something I'm very interested in, that doesn't mean it's not important though. And a number of people, let me show you a poll I put out last night.

A number of people have weighed in, and they want me, 85 of you, want me to comment on this. I asked, should I do a podcast explaining Doug Wilson and the federal vision controversy? So far, 617 votes, and the choices were, yes, I can't seem to find good resources, 85%, and then no, enough people have weighed in.

And the comments really did, for me at least, confirm something. A suspicion I've had about that whole issue. Many of you don't know what I'm talking about, and it's an issue related to Sola Fidei, the nature of the church, a number of core doctrines.

I read the document. There is a document, there is a spectrum I know of federal vision beliefs, but there is a document, a core document that advocates signed, and I read it, and frankly, I thought, at best, at best, it's very confusing in my mind.

And without really listening to any critiques of federal vision, I was coming to the conclusion while reading it, I mean, I thought, this sounds almost like a return to Rome or something, Roman Catholicism.

Not that it wasn't Roman Catholic, it just, some of the language in it made it seem almost that way. And I, so I read it, and now I'm in a process of trying to understand it better, because it is, man, it is complicated.

I didn't realize how much material is out there on this particular subject. The reason, though, it's coming up now is because Doug Wilson is, I think it was Kosti Hinn might have been one of the ones to bring this up.

He reposted a podcast from Mike Eberndorff, No Compromise Radio. I haven't actually listened to that episode yet, which I'm intending to do, but it was critical of the federal vision. But Kosti Hinn is a big platform, and so the internet exploded.

And I was on vacation, so I didn't read through it, and I'm not on Twitter anyway, so I just, I knew about it. People, some people were messaging me about it, and I just thought, you know, I don't know if this is something I want to weigh in, especially when I was on, well, vacation slash family trip.

We had a memorial service for a step-uncle. We had also my grandfather's 100th birthday, and that was like a three-part event, and that was a blessing. And so I was tied up with all that while this was going on.

But anyway, I pondered it for a few days and thought, you know, this is something I at least, even if I don't do a podcast on it, which I think I will do a podcast, but even if I didn't, I want to have a better handle on this.

Because some of these issues are very important issues. These are like fundamental doctrinal issues that this controversy concerns. So I don't really have anything more to say about it in this particular podcast, but just know that's an iron I have in the fire as well, and I don't want to be irresponsible by trotting something out that's incomplete, putting something out there that I don't feel like I have a good handle on just to get material out there so I can get views because it's a hot topic now.

I'd rather wait, and even if things have settled down, give you just a better, more accurate, helpful take. So some of the reasons I don't always chase news cycles is because of that. I'm thinking through what's the most helpful for you in the audience.

So anyway, that's another iron. I'm guilty, though, of having a lot of irons in the fire that I don't go back to. I remember when the grooming thing was a big deal months ago when Ron DeSantis was passed that bill, signed the bill into law to prevent children from being exposed to sexual deviant behavior and teaching in school, and it was, you know, Disney got involved.

It was a whole thing. You remember it. And I started this big study of quote-unquote grooming, of pornography and of all that stuff, and who was behind it for like the past hundred years, and what court cases decided, determined how we got to the point we're at now with the just, it's so loose that you can post so many things online, but also just even in the public square in general, on billboards and stuff.

I mean, it's semi-pornographic, some of the things that are out there, and how did we get here? So I did this whole study, and I was halfway through, and the news cycle changed, and I lost it. I mean, I still have it, but I decided to take a brief break, I suppose, and that brief break has now turned into months, and who knows if I'll go back to it.

So I'm guilty of doing that quite a bit, because I want to give you just a really good handle on a topic, and so that's what you get with the Conversations That Matter podcast often. Sometimes I am flying a little bit by the seat of my pants, I suppose, but just because of the content and the volume of content I'm putting out there.

But most of the time, if it's something that I'm just going to play, it's because it's something I've already thought through, and so the Christian Nationalist thing, I've looked at a lot of the literature, and just the volume of information, there's a lot of it coming out, but I think I have a decent handle on it.

So we can listen to a Kevin DeYoung podcast. So there you go, you're getting to know, I don't know why I'm saying all this, but you're getting to know a little bit about the method behind my madness sometimes, and why I put out content on certain things and not other things.

Another iron in the fire right now is I am doing a study on the AX29 network and just their connection to social justice, and there was a helpful brother in AX29 who sent me a whole bunch of information, and combing through that information, it's a lot.

It's a lot. So I don't know exactly how I'm going to do it. I thought, well, we'll just do one podcast on AX29, and I'm looking through all this and I'm like, that's not possible. That is not possible with all this information.

So we may do a few on the AX29 network, and just showing you where to look. For pastors and just people who are confused about it or have a question about it, is AX29 woke? Should I associate with them?

Should I partner with them? Should I church plant with them? I'll at least give you the information you need so that you can look in the right places to determine whether or not they're for or against social justice.

I would submit to you, they are way more for social justice than I had initially thought. I thought they were fairly neutral, but kind of left-leaning. Not so much. They've really bought social justice thinking at a very deep level.

A lot of the material is from 2017, 2018, but up through even fairly recently. The gentleman who sent me information sent me through 2020. It's definitely very on the woke side. And so, as they say in the popular vernacular now.

But anyway, those are just a few things. There's a bunch of other things I'm studying and hopefully will present to you fairly soon. I wanted to make an announcement. I forgot about this. I've never said this on the show.

I'm kind of going through things that I've meant to say for the last week and a half that I just haven't had much of an opportunity to say because of my travels. But if you go to, let's see, worldviewconversation .com slash shop.

Worldviewconversation .com slash shop. I don't believe I've mentioned this on the podcast. You can check it out. There is now a study guide for Christianity and social justice, religions, and conflict, and it's free.

I was going to just make it free for patrons, and I just decided it was easier, and I just thought it's something I want out there for free. I want you to be able to take advantage of this for small groups.

So there are individuals even using Christianity and social justice, the book, to teach courses on social justice, even at the college level. And if you want a helpful resource, and it's just really questions, you can get the plain text version or the workbook.

I put the workbook together. My brother's actually the one that was putting the questions together, but you can see right here it just takes you through each chapter. So chapter one, history of social justice, and it just asks you questions, and these are really good for group discussion so that you understand, and it takes you through biblical passages.

You know, does Galatians 2 .4 speak to critical race theory, social justice advocates in the church? Would it be appropriate to label such advocates false brethren? Why or why not? I mean, these are really helpful things to think through.

And so it's got some graphics in it, it's fun, but it's six lessons, and then you can, I guess, do 12 if you want. You can go as slow as you want, but this is for the book, Christianity and Social Justice, Religions Conflict, and I will endeavor to put the link in the info section for those who are interested in this because I don't, and I'm not just saying this, I'm not trying to toot my own horn.

I've read a number of books critiquing social justice. I don't know of any that give you, that are as helpful for leading small groups as the one that I've prepared. And I prepared it with that in mind.

I want it to be as comprehensive and systematic as possible. I wanted you to be able to grasp concepts, build on those concepts, go to the next chapter and be able to grasp even more complicated subjects because you've read the previous chapters.

And so by the end, you understand this issue. That's the point of the book, okay? And so that workbook is out now for free for anyone out there. You don't even have to be a Patron. Patron's got it first, but you don't have to be a Patron to get a copy of that book.

I'm trying to think of anything else. Oh, I was going to mention, you know, this is funny. As I was leaving two weeks ago now to fly to California, as I was leaving, literally I am waiting for the shuttle to take me to the airport from where I parked.

And I checked my phone and there's a huge blow up apparently on Twitter. I'm not on Twitter, but people are texting or messaging me that Karen Swallow Pryor apparently, the professor at Southeastern where I got my MDiv, formerly Liberty where I got my MA.

So she's been at the institutions I've been at. I've never actually met her though. I saw her on campus like twice, I think. She was always going somewhere though, it was like from a distance. I never got a chance to really talk to her or anything like that.

But anyway, she put out a tweet. I'll see if I can pull it up while I'm talking to you about this. Accusing myself and A .D. Robles and Joel Webben of human trafficking, I kid you not. Here's Capstone Report, I guess, saved.

So if you Google it, it comes right up. So I thought this was kind of funny to me. And it's not like I have to mention this stuff, but it's humorous to see the line. Okay, so here's what it is. Kyle J. Howard, who it's funny in a way because in this particular video, A .D. Robles goes after Kyle J. Howard a whole lot.

I don't think I said much about him at all, if anything. But A .D. Robles really goes after Kyle J. Howard for being kind of, to summarize, being effeminate and crying about how horrible his life is, trying to get kind of a maternal sympathy for the plight that he has.

And it's just not something that men really are as motivated to be moved by, but women tend to be more. And that was really the point, I guess, of the video. So Joel Webben from Right Response Ministries, he does this interview or this panel discussion with A .D. and myself.

And so he uses this. He takes the clip from this video and he just puts it out there, like an 18-minute clip. And it's on the topic I just mentioned. And so Kyle J. Howard tweets it out. And he labeled it.

Joel Webben labeled it. He put Kyle J. Howard's name in it. Kyle J. Howard and other pathetic men. So it wasn't my label, it was Joel Webben's, which is fine, that Joel Webben can label his videos what he wants to label his videos.

But Kyle J. Howard sees this and it's got my face right there. And I saw that. I was like, oh, I didn't know there was a video of me calling Kyle J. Howard pathetic. And so then I watched it. I was like, oh, you know, A .D.'s calling him pathetic.

And then I'm kind of piggybacking off of what A .D. said. And I'm giving a broader point about this, about pastors and who they're trying to cater to. And anyway, Kyle takes this and he goes, my wife, kids and parents and those I provide soul care for don't consider me pathetic, so I'm good.

Y 'all fellows have at it. The amount of YouTube videos that exist about me, y 'all wild. Now here's the funny part to me. The funny, there's like three funny parts. The first is that the point of the video is that Kyle kind of cries boo-hoo about at least what A .D.'s saying in the video, that Kyle takes things that happen to him and then uses those to try to garner sympathy.

And a very video, the very video about that is a video that Kyle takes to garner sympathy. It's like he's kind of doing what A .D. said he does. That's the first funny part to me. It's like, I'm just wondering, does Kyle see what, how he's proving A .D.'s point?

Now for those who don't know, I should probably say Kyle J. Howard is, according to him, a racial, I think it's trauma counselor, and he's a, I believe a graduate from Southern Seminary. I know at least he went there for a while.

And so that's kind of his thing. But the reason he's somewhat significant, I suppose, is because he has been in close proximity at certain points to people like Danny Akin and Beth Moore and Russell Moore and just, there's a bit, I mean, in fact, I think he calls Russell Moore like a mother in the faith.

I mean, there's a close kind of relationship there of some kind. And so it's the people who kind of have a platform, a big one, that give Kyle somewhat of a credibility that makes Kyle, I think, somewhat of a significant figure in this whole social justice debate and evangelicalism.

And so, and again, proving that this point, Karen Swallow Pryor from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary responds, manufacturing and monetizing outrage is just another form of trafficking human beings.

They do it to me too. I don't know what to say to this. It's just, it's a self-parody. You don't really have to say much about it. Manufacturing and monetizing outrage. I guess Joel probably had an ad on the video or something.

So if you have a YouTube ad and you're monetizing outrage, I mean, there's several assumptions that you have to make is that, you know, the whole point of this is to try to evoke outrage, which I would contest that's not the point of that video, but you'd have to make that assumption.

You'd have to also make the assumption that it's manufactured. So it's not real outrage over real things happening in the real world. It's all fake. So there's some, there's a bit of deception going on.

I would argue that too. We're not deceiving anyone with, or bringing up real life examples of things actually happening and then monetizing. So putting, I guess, an ad on the YouTube video, which Joel did, which is funny part to me is that AD and I weren't, we didn't monetize that.

That was Joel. But, but of course we do both have ads on our YouTube videos. And so I guess you could say the same thing about us. And, and so because we get, there's a little bit of money that comes in from ad revenue from these, these videos, that is human trafficking.

So now you have to make the assumption that if you criticize someone and get paid anything to do it, or if you critique, even if it's constructive, then you're trafficking human beings. And I just wonder, like, would this apply to the apostles or Jesus?

I mean, was he, if he received donations or the apostle Paul received donations from a church and he's critiquing the false teachers, is he monetizing outrage somehow? Right? So, so, and then of course she has to add, they do it to me too.

So of course she's, she's a victim just like Kyle. And I pointed this out before with people more on the left, I've noticed this tendency to, they, even when they have institutional power, even when they're connected with people with a lot of power, which I would say Joel AD and I, we're not, we're just, we don't have those connections.

But it's the people who do like Karen Swallow Pryor, like Kyle J. Howard, they have to be the victims. So even if they're in the seat of having more influence and power or connected to people who do, they still have to portray themselves as victims.

And it's an interesting dynamic to me. So I thought that was a new one. I was like, well, I, you know, I get the Christian Nationalist, Toxic Masculine, the Neo-Confederate, the I don't even know, there's so many, but I was like, this one's a rich one.

This one's, you know, if I was like Phil Johnson used to do on his Twitter background, if I still had Twitter, I put that right on the background of my Twitter page that, you know, human trafficker, according to Karen Swallow Pryor.

And I have to say too, I'm looking at this, this picture of AD Robles and I, and it's really not fair that AD looks like he has this really nice kind of olive tone to his skin, like he's tanning and stuff.

And this isn't, I think this is in summer or maybe this is like spring, but so I'm sitting there and I look like I'm a ghost. I'm so white. And you know, the reason for this isn't because I'm just so white.

I know many of you think that, and I even have a very bright light on me right now. I'm all right, I'm white, I got it. But it's so exaggerated because I was sitting close to the light in the room and AD was farther away from it.

So I just want to make that point. Anyway. All right. So that was, that was kind of funny that, and I never talked about it because I was literally getting on a plane and then it was like, I didn't have internet.

I didn't have time to even podcast or anything, but I figured I'd at least mention it cause it was kind of funny. So the inside joke, and now it's not so inside online, I guess since then has been anytime anyone criticize someone, criticizes someone else, you accuse them of human trafficking.

I guess that's how that works. All right. Well, let's start off today. Where are we going to start? Let's start off with some good news. We could use some of that, couldn't we? So I had marked this down as something I wanted to talk about because I thought, man, this is really good.

Samford University Turns Away Episcopal and Presbyterian Chaplains

And it's kind of old, I guess it's, it's almost a month old. September 14th, Samford University turns away Episcopalians, Presbyterians from event due to LGBTQ plus views, activist says, and this is from the mainstream media.

This is a MSN and it says this, a campus minister at Samford University turned away Presbyterian church USA and Episcopal church college chaplains that asked to be included in a recent campus ministry fair because the two denominations have stances supporting same-sex marriage.

According to the founder of SAFE Samford and LGBTQ rights group, Brit Blalock, who founded SAFE Samford in 2011 said that Madison Vaughn, ministry coordinator for UKIRC campus ministry representing the Presbyterian church USA had tried to reserve a table at the church and ministry expo event on August 31 on campus.

Blalock said that the Presbyterian church USA and Episcopal church college chaplains had taken part in previous ministry fairs at Samford with no problems. Vaughn was told that she would not be given display space at the event and later contacted the Reverend Emily Collette, a chaplain at Trinity commons, a similar campus ministry organization and Collette had reserved a table at the event and agreed to share space with Vaughn.

After Vaughn shared plans to attend the event on social media, Collette received a call from Samford University campus pastor Bobby Gatlin, uninviting her to the event. And this is what Blalock said. He was explicit in saying that the reason was her denomination's affirmative stance on LGBTQ people and did not mention any policy she was in violation of.

So this is interesting. And you know, to what extent is this true? I don't really know. You know, maybe this is a bunch of bluster. I'm kind of hoping there's something true about this, that Samford is a Baptist college.

So if they're getting serious about, we have a statement of faith here and yes, we believe in academic expression, but you can't advocate against what our university itself is founded upon the principles of our university.

I would hope that's actually happening. And so it goes on. And of course, I know this is from the mainstream media, so I take it with a grain of salt. And that's pretty much the gist of it. So I'm sure that there's going to be more, it says update on Wednesday, Samford University defended its stance on the matter in a letter sent to students and shared with faculty staff.

Vice president of affairs, Philip Kimrey noted that the university has a responsibility to formally partner with ministry organizations that share our beliefs. So it sounds like it's true. This is good news.

And I would just hope that this continues, that this happens at other universities and not just even on this issue, but that other issues are also taken more seriously, social justice related matters.

But this is a really good development, I would say, and a brave one, very brave. You hear all about the bravery of coming out and stuff. It doesn't take bravery today. Everyone celebrates you in the world.

It could be that your family, if they're Christians and they're serious about their beliefs and maybe there's some blowback there, but those in power in institutions are going to celebrate you. This takes real bravery to go against everything that all the people that have institutional power are saying at the same time.

So I want to let you know that, pray for them, pray that they would be resolute in this and God would reward them. We also, I wanted to bring this to your attention. This was, this happened while I was in California, but it's just, it's sad to me, it's just sad to me.

Phil Vischer’s Drift on Abortion and Pro-Life Exceptions

VeggieTales creator Phil Vischer comes out as pro-choice on abortion, according to the Dissenter. Now, I looked at the tweets and it's not full-blown pro-choice, okay? But here, let's just read the tweets.

We'll skip the article, read the tweets. The tweets here, plenty of trans-affirming white churches have very orthodox statements of faith, too. And so we're jumping into sort of the middle of the discussion here.

Something has gone wrong with these churches. And Phil Vischer says, and if your church is anti-refugee or supports lying and cheating in leadership, also rotten, question mark. So he's talking about Trump, I think he's talking about migrants coming across the border, that kind of thing.

And can you tell me exactly what the biblical position is on the permissibility of abortion, when it is allowable according to scripture? And William Wolfe, who we've talked about before, great guy, he said, never easy.

What's your answer? Phil Vischer says, and what scripture leads you to that conclusion? So William Wolfe's saying, abortion's never acceptable, it's wrong, it's anti-biblical, that's a compromise, if a church embraces that.

And Phil Vischer wants to nuance this. He says, oh sorry, when it will save the life of the mother is an easy one for most Christians to agree on. Well, not me, necessarily. I have to know what you mean by that, exactly.

Because there's two things that could be, one is abortion for, actually I don't even know what this category really would be, but the mother's going to die, we have to perform an abortion. Usually the classic case is the ectopic pregnancy.

That's one way of framing it, okay? And then the other way is to say, we want to do everything we can to save both lives, and in order to save the life of the mother, because both the mother and baby are dying in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, we have to remove the baby.

And I know some Catholic theologians have come up with ways of removing the fallopian tube so that it's still an act of God and not, or a naturally occurring thing, and it's not directly related to a surgical process, it's not technically an abortion.

But the thing with what Phil Vischer is doing here is the way he's framing it is kind of that former way, not the latter way. He's framing it as it's an abortion. And I wouldn't necessarily characterize if what he's talking about is an ectopic pregnancy as an abortion, necessarily.

But he says, cases of rape and incest are supported by many, but you probably know this already. Now, there are some Christians, by the way, who they'll say, no, I mean, I'm going to keep the baby. I don't, even if it's ectopic, and I mean, I've heard of situations where it's actually worked out, but that's, in a true ectopic pregnancy, I don't know how that will work out, save by a miracle of God.

That's death, generally speaking. So, William Wolfe says, Phil, do you support legal abortion in instances of pregnancy resulting from rape? He says, I don't have a specific position, but probably if it's in the early stages, or early in pregnancy.

So, this is, I think, the big giveaway here. This is bigger than what I just read. This is Phil Vischer saying, look, if it's in the early stages, it's probably okay. Whoa. Whoa. So, when does it become a human?

That's the question. And he's just leaving that open now. And so, someone says, this means you're pro-choice. And Phil Vischer says, I believe I'm pretty close to most major pro-life organizations. And the sad thing is, he might be close to some of them.

But that's like saying you're close to those who think adultery is wrong, but you just allow for once-a-year hall pass. It's actually a really good response. And he says, no, most organizations also support exceptions for life of the mother, rape, and incest.

And the response is, I'd ask two things, then. Which ones? And why would you call themselves pro-life? So, Phil Vischer, I think someone predicted this. It might have been me. I can't remember. But when Phil Vischer started doing the whole racism in America narrative using Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow and critical race theory sources, sources from critical race theory, and when he just...

I critiqued his whole video on Christianity and social justice, religions, and conflict. I go through that video, and I just... I spent days, probably, like two days at least, just researching statistics and crunching numbers and just...

And it is a horrible, just so off historically, so off sociologically representation of what's taking place, has taken place in the United States. There's some truth to it, but it's not... It's so lopsided.

And I remember the prediction was made at that point, that Phil Vischer is going to eventually be pro-choice. Phil Vischer is going to go right into the Democratic Party. And it's interesting because...

And I think it was like 2018 or 19. There's a clip of Phil Vischer. I played it on this podcast once, creator of Edgy Tales, mocking those who said that he was racist because there was blowback for the fact that...

I think it was in the episode of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. There's a character, Nebuchadnezzar, is voiced by Phil Vischer, and he gives him kind of this black voice, and that was supposedly racist.

And you're making the villain black. And Phil Vischer mocked it. Phil Vischer, on his... I guess it was a podcast. I know I played the audio on this podcast, was saying how, what, is everything racist?

And that same Phil Vischer, in the course of just a couple years, is now making the arguments pro-choicers make. I mean, it's crazy to me. It's crazy to me. This is a guy who... And I was never a VeggieTales fan, so I'm not too heartbroken over it, but some of you might be.

And I just... This is the slide. I've said before that the woke church is the off-ramp from Christianity. It's a slide. And it's incremental steps. You just get farther and farther away from orthodoxy.

And this is one of the ways you can tell. Now, switching gears here to another thing, I wanted to point this out. This is something that happened in... It's not a big, big thing, I suppose. Man, this didn't even get a lot of traction, this tweet.

But it's big, apparently, in some small worlds, but important worlds. In PCA worlds. Okay? So for PCA stuff, it's important enough that I decided to talk about it. So Zach Garris and Sean McGowan, I would call them both friends.

I'm trying to think of... I don't think I've actually ever met them in person, but they're... I've had them on the podcast before, and I've read some of what they've written. And I just think they're good brothers in Christ.

They have a good heart for the PCA. And they were attacked this last week now. When was it? It says September 30th. Okay, last week. By an individual on Twitter. I don't even know if repeating his name is profitable.

No one knows who this guy is, really. But anyway, it got a little bit of traction in PCA circles. And this is what this gentleman said. He said, apparently there are pockets in the PCA that are okay partnering with kinists.

Kinists. That might be a new word for some of you. Kinism, and this is what his definition, equals a white nationalist interpretation of Christianity that claims that the Bible prohibits miscegenation and racial integration.

I'm not sure where he's getting that definition from, but I'll address the kinist thing in a moment. What he's retweeting here, what his commentary is based upon, is an individual by the name of, I guess you would pronounce that, Jean Schlebusch, who claims to be a kinist.

He says, with all due respect to all the folks in the new movement, and I think that new movement is Christian nationalism, he says, we kinists did the Christian nationalism thing decades before it was cool.

So excuse me for being skeptical about the motives of anyone who refuses to embrace our clear and well-defined biblical definition of nationhood. And I will submit to you that that probably is the key issue here, is what a nation is.

And so he is saying, I'm part of this group, this kinist group. Now, he happened to write, I think, one article for a website called knowingscripture .com. And Zach Garris and Sean McGowan, both PCA pastors, are also contributors to knowingscripture .com.

So therefore, here's the logic, right? Therefore, if they both contributed to the same website, and this guy, Jan, he didn't write anything about kinism on knowingscripture .com, totally unrelated. So he wrote something for this website that wasn't related to kinism, and because he did that, and he's a contributor, and Zach Garris is a contributor, and Sean McGowan is a contributor, well, we know that they're okay partnering with kinists, therefore.

So there's a few interesting things about this immediately. And I know Zach and Sean well enough, and I'm not going to this is delicate. I don't think bringing families into this is appropriate. I'm not going to show you pictures of families or anything like that, but I will just say this.

I knew that both of them are in marriages in which, let's just say, if by this definition of kinism that Daniel Claven gives, a white nationalist interpretation of Christianity that claims the Bible prohibits miscegenation and racial integration.

By that definition, if that's what kinism truly is, Zach and Sean are in violation because of who they married. Neither of them married necessarily from within their ethnic group. They married outside, so they would be in interracial or interethnic marriages, however you want to phrase that.

The interesting thing to me about the individual critiquing them here is that if you look them up on social media at all, not only is the guy pasty white, but his family is also I just thought this is so weird.