September 10, 2020 Show with Dr. Danny R. Faulkner on “Falling Flat: A Refutation of Flat Earth Claims”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

01:00

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:10

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming by IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:21

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 10th day of September 2020.

01:31

You know, I never would have guessed until fairly recently that there were people who still believed in a flat

01:40

Earth. I even sometimes wondered when I began hearing of the existence of such folks,

01:47

I began wondering if these were actors, perhaps, running some kind of a scam to make a fool out of those who are from a more conservative background, perhaps even professing

02:00

Christians. But I found out, not only through friends and acquaintances who have had interactions with flat

02:08

Earthers on the Internet, but also by seeing a documentary on Netflix called

02:14

Behind the Curve, and I said to myself, I have got to find a reputable scientist and Christian to refute the claims of the flat

02:27

Earthers, and sure enough, I discovered an individual who has been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio already.

02:35

His name is Dr. Danny Faulkner, and he is a former faculty member at the University of South Carolina in Lancaster for over 26 years, member of the

02:46

Creation Research Society, editor of the Creation Research Society Quarterly, author of more than a hundred papers in various astronomy and astrophysics journals, and author of books including

03:02

Universe by Design and The Created Cosmos. He's also a researcher and speaker for Answers in Genesis, and today we are going to be addressing his book,

03:13

Falling Flat, a Refutation of Flat Earth Claims, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

03:20

Danny R. Faulkner. Thank you, Chris, it's good to be back. Well, I know that it is very unlikely that too many people in my audience have not heard of Answers in Genesis, but you never know, because I do have new

03:35

Christians who listen to this program on occasion, and I also have people in the audience on occasion who are not

03:43

Christians at all, so especially for the sake of them, why don't you let our listeners know about Answers in Genesis?

03:50

Okay, Answers in Genesis, we're located in northern Kentucky, suburban Cincinnati, probably best known for the

03:57

Ark Encounter and Creation Museum. The Ark Encounter opened a couple years ago, and Creation Museum about a dozen years ago.

04:04

One of the co -founders is Ken Ham, and he's pretty well -known among a lot of Christians, so if you mention

04:09

Ken Ham's name, or either the Ark or the Museum, then people understand who we are better.

04:15

And I've been on the research staff now going on eight years. I was able to retire from the university a little early, but become, do

04:23

Creation Ministry post -retirement, so we have a great team of people. The research department we have myself in astronomy and physics, we have a geologist, we have a paleontologist, and a biologist all on the research staff alone.

04:35

So we do more than just the Museum and the Ark, and the ministry's been around for more than 25 years, and the

04:42

Lord has prospered us quite nicely in getting the Gospel message out through the vehicle of Creation and Genesis.

04:47

And if anybody wants to investigate more about Answers in Genesis, go to AnswersInGenesis .org,

04:56

AnswersInGenesis .org. Well, Dr. Faulkner, you've obviously written a book on the flat -earth claims that you are seeking to refute.

05:10

Did you get any negative feedback when you were working on this project from any of your colleagues or people that you know and respect, who know and respect you as well, who were saying to you,

05:23

Danny, don't even do this, because it's going to make you look silly that you would even address an issue like the flat -earth.

05:32

I mean, it's almost like writing a, it may seem like writing a scholarly treatise to refute

05:38

Oral Roberts' 70 -foot Jesus, or however tall the

05:44

Jesus was in his vision. But what were your colleagues saying to you when they heard that you were even writing the book?

05:55

Oh, they were very supportive, surprisingly enough. I first learned about the flat -earth movement a little more than four and a half years ago.

06:01

I had a conversation with three different adults concerned about three different young people who were in the flat -earth all in less than a week.

06:10

And that made me realize there's something going on out there. I'd seen hints of it a couple years prior to that, but I hadn't really put the dots together.

06:19

So I jumped into investigation. The movement blew up about five or six years ago, done, promulgated by the

06:26

Internet and YouTube videos and such. And for quite a while, I was a little reluctant to discuss it with my colleagues at AIG.

06:32

I finally went to some of our speakers and sheepishly asked them, Are you getting it when you out and speak on the road?

06:38

Are you getting any questions about flat -earth? None of them said they were, but over the next few months, one by one that came back to me said,

06:45

I got the question one weekend at a church I was speaking at. And so there's been a sharp rise in inquiries, people emailing and writing us, people coming to the museum and hearing one of our speakers speak and afterwards asking about it, or people on the road encountering it.

07:01

So I kind of got in early on the movement, and other people at ENDSIS and GENESIS realized that I have unique qualifications for tackling this issue.

07:12

So they've been very supportive of the work. I've got to tell you that as part of my research over the past four and a half years,

07:19

I've attended three flat -earth international conventions. I've had several of those, and I don't think there are going to be any more of those, but I went in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019 to those.

07:34

I had another one in Calgary, I believe, it was in Canada at least, that I did not go to. But other than that, I've been to all the flat -earth international conferences.

07:41

There are hundreds of people there, many speakers, and while I was there, I was able to interact and ask a lot of questions. So again, my colleagues could not have been more supportive, though I was fearful at first that they might think this is a silly thing to talk about.

07:56

Now, do you think, I mean, well, first of all, let me ask you, do you know with certainty that any of those that were promoting the flat -earth theory, have they ever been proven, anybody of significance that is, have they ever been proven to be perpetuating a hoax, just to get a laugh at the expense of those that believe in this, or perhaps, as I said earlier, to make conservatives and perhaps even professing

08:28

Christians look like morons, as liberals and leftists typically try to do?

08:36

I'm not aware that anyone's been proven to be that. I suspect certain parties are doing that.

08:42

The flat -earth movement, as we know it, came about in the 19th century. A man named Sonia Robot, an

08:47

Englishman, was the one that started the movement. There are some indications that he might have been a guy who was in it just as a prank.

08:57

I can share an anecdote, if you'd like, about that. I'll go ahead and share the anecdote.

09:03

Have you ever known somebody who was just like to argue? They would say the most silly thing that obviously isn't true, and to get a rise out of people as people argue with them.

09:15

He was very persuasive, not that he was arguing in a good way. Many times people can use cheap rhetorical tricks and so forth and get people flustered.

09:23

I know a couple of people like that, who just like to talk and argue. Not because they really believe it, but because they just have this perverse delight out of tying people in knots.

09:34

There's good indication that Robot was of that type. The anecdote I had in mind came from Christine Garwood.

09:41

That's a book written about 15 years ago, before the Incarnation in the 21st century, by the way.

09:48

She relates an incident where Robot had been speaking to someone 150 years ago.

09:55

He was rushing to a train station to catch a train, and two men were going to rob him.

10:00

They said, your money or your life. Without missing a beat, he simply shouted, I'm just virtually alive.

10:08

I've just burned that house and the police are after me. Most people could not think that quick.

10:16

He got away with both treasure and his life. They thought he was for real. I just think he was a quick wit and a good arguer.

10:23

He ended up making some money off of it. I suspect there were some people early on who posted some things on YouTube videos and the internet.

10:34

Such lame arguments that these people have to know that they're bogus.

10:40

That other people, unfortunately, have taken them hook, line, and sinker and have run with it. I still keep trying to find somebody that I can get the goods on, point out that they're doing this as a prank, or as the more perverse and wicked motivation you mentioned about trying to make

10:58

Christians and the Bible look foolish. I can't say with any confidence that I've identified anybody like that, but I have my suspicions.

11:05

Now, on the other side of the spectrum, are there any serious scientists who actually have legitimate backgrounds in science who promote this and believe this?

11:20

Not one. Not one at all. There is one prominent speaker,

11:26

I won't use his name, who claims to be an engineer, but I've looked into his education and job experience.

11:35

He took one year of college in a pre -engineering program, and then he went into the

11:43

Air Force and was a technician working on radar units or some sort of radio communication things.

11:51

I'm not quite sure. He's a technician, but he's not an engineer. He claims to be an engineer. I don't know of any others, and I would be quite shocked to find somebody who had real credentials in science or related fields who would be a

12:07

Flat Earther. Yeah, you actually said something that surprised me, that the

12:13

Flat Earth movement began in the 19th century. For some reason,

12:18

I don't know where I heard this, but I thought that that was a common view in centuries past, before Galileo and Copernicus and so on.

12:32

Is the Flat Earth view something that did not arise until the 19th century?

12:39

That is a large part of the problem. We're all subject to what I call the

12:44

Columbus mythology. All of us growing up were told that everybody thought the

12:49

Earth was flat until Christopher Columbus proved otherwise five centuries ago. But think about it,

12:55

Chris. Columbus, he sailed from Spain to the Caribbean and back to Spain, and he did that three more times.

13:02

How does that prove the Earth is a globe? It doesn't make any sense. As it turns out, people in the

13:09

West, at least, have known the Earth is a globe for 2 ,500 years. Most ancient cosmologies appear to be based on the

13:17

Flat Earth. But the Pythagoras, you've heard of him?

13:26

Sixth century B .C., he mentioned, he stated that his belief the Earth was a globe. We don't know what his reasons were, because his writings don't survive.

13:33

It comes from other people later than that. 350 B .C., Aristotle, a well -known guy to this day and ever since, he wrote on the heavens, and I've read the relevant parts of it, but early on in his book he says the

13:45

Earth is a sphere, and he gave several arguments, two of which are very good arguments that I still use today.

13:52

He was very influential. By certainly about the fourth century B .C., the Greeks believed the

13:57

Earth was a globe. In 200 B .C., a guy named Eratosthenes, living in Alexandria, the city that Alcindor the

14:03

Great founded in North Africa and in Egypt. It was a city of Greek culture and learning.

14:09

He measured the size of the Earth pretty accurately around 200 B .C. Second century A .D., a guy named Ptolemy wrote that the

14:16

Earth was a globe, and he did a lot more than that, but he gave several reasons.

14:22

Pliny the Elder in the first century, he wrote on the subject and gave an argument that was new to him. He introduced a new one in the first century.

14:31

Some early church fathers actually opined on it, but they didn't opine much. Augustine believed that the

14:36

Earth was a globe. As you go through the Middle Ages, the venerable B .E.,

14:42

he believed the Earth was a globe, yet numerous references to this. And so where did this myth come from that everyone thought the world was flat?

14:50

Well, it really started in the 19th century by skeptics, and you have what's called the conflict thesis that was developed.

14:58

Andrew Dixon White, and I think it was Draper, I forget his first name, he was the other guy that wrote on this quite a bit, became very fashionable in the 19th century to argue that religion in general and Christianity and the

15:08

Bible in particular had held back progress, that things were going well until the Church got involved in things in the

15:14

Middle Ages and you had all this darkness that the Enlightenment suddenly undid, and they argued that the

15:20

Church taught the world was flat because the Bible says that.

15:26

And yet you have a hard time finding anybody in the history of the Church that taught that. What they did is they found two people from the

15:33

Late Antiquity and very early Middle Ages, one being Cosmas, who taught this, who worked for this one little odd teaching who would know nothing about Cosmas, and another person.

15:44

There's two people that you can find. This hardly represents the mainstream of Christian thinking. You find many art depictions that indicate that the

15:51

Earth is a globe, so it's a complete lie fabricated by Bible critics in the 19th century, and their argument was, look, the

15:59

Church got it wrong on the shape of the Earth. The Earth is not flat. Here's your chance to redeem yourself, redeem the

16:05

Church, by getting in on the ground floor of Darwinism. And this lie actually worked very effectively, because you find capitulation all over the place in the 19th century with the millions of years and even evolution itself.

16:19

And it was in this environment that Senator Robottom came along, and I think he was actually probably a skeptic himself.

16:26

Can you repeat who came along? For some reason I didn't quite clearly hear who you said.

16:32

Senator Robottom. I already mentioned him earlier. And he was the guy that had the little fast anecdote about Bruntree alive that just burgled that house.

16:40

He was on the scene, this was going on, and he capitalized upon it. And I think he was doing it because he was a good arguer and having a good time.

16:48

So the movement grew, and unfortunately you had many Christians at the time, not a majority by any means, but some, who embraced this as a badge of honor.

16:57

The Bible says this, and all they're doing is they're taking the critics and the skeptics' arguments and adopting that, not refuting it like they should have.

17:07

So that was when the movement really got started, and it died away in the early 20th century, and only recently was resurrected a few years ago when people discovered some of these books written more than 100 years ago and began putting them on the

17:21

Internet. Do you happen to... Well, actually you've already said that you didn't want to mention any names.

17:27

I can mention some, but do you want to know whose person it is? Who were the ones that revived this?

17:33

Are any of the people that are featured in the documentary on Netflix, Behind the

17:38

Curve, among those that revived this in modern times? Well, the person I hold most responsible, a man named

17:44

Eric Dubé, I don't think he's in that documentary. Eric Dubé is a bit of a mysterious character.

17:51

He's an American living, I believe, in Thailand. He does yoga instruction there, and he was invited, supposedly, to come speak at some of these national conventions, but he's declined.

18:03

In fact, I don't know anybody who's ever met him. So I wonder if Eric Dubé is for real, if he might not be a created persona, might be a fake figure.

18:15

I have no evidence of this. I just find it interesting that nobody seems to know who he is. But he was the one, more than anybody, who reintroduced this around 2014 or so.

18:25

He started out and wrote a couple of books, and then he put a lot of material onto the Internet about this.

18:32

And he seemed to get the ball rolling on this, as it were. And other people jumped in very quickly upon this as well.

18:40

Now, to your knowledge, is there a high percentage of professing

18:46

Christians who are unfortunately promoting this, or would evangelical

18:52

Christians be a minority in this group? What do you know about that? From my study,

18:59

I think they are a large component. They likely are a majority. The arguments that people put forth are twofold.

19:06

One is using the so -called science that they push, and the other one is using the biblical Flat Earth approach to these things.

19:15

Rob Schievo stands out. He's a Christian, but teaching that the Earth is flat, and he uses a lot of biblical arguments for that.

19:23

Robbie Davidson, who founded the Flat Earth International Conference and ran those, he, too, is a

19:28

Christian. Bob Nodell doesn't profess to be a Christian, but he's one of the main leaders.

19:36

He was featured in that documentary you mentioned, by the way. So there's a mix.

19:42

I was surprised at the first Flat Earth International Conference, how diverse it was. There was at least one Muslim Flat Earther there.

19:49

There were people who were Christians professing Christians, or others who didn't profess

19:55

Christianity at all. And there was some tension there. There was some tension among the different speakers.

20:04

The last Flat Earth International Conference, last November, it had a more Christian emphasis, per se.

20:10

And I would say the majority of people at that one probably were professing Christians. There have been some smaller groups.

20:16

There's some groups that have had their own Flat Earth -related topics, sort of conventions of smaller events, and they have a more blatant

20:25

Christian biblical approach. You know, the Flat Earthers are fond of saying there are no atheists in the Flat Earth ranks, the argument being,

20:32

I guess, their cosmology is so contrived that nobody would believe that it happened by itself.

20:38

But the Christians claim that there have been many atheists who came to believe that the Earth is flat and then became

20:44

Christians. I'm very skeptical of that claim, by the way, what that one person who said he was in that category.

20:52

And there are people who argue that they've been drawn closer to the

20:59

Lord, understand Scripture, study it more now, because they know the Earth is flat, and they get much more meaning out of the relationship with the

21:06

Lord and by reading Scripture than before. Those kind of testimonies you're getting. There actually have been some churches now started that make that part of their central doctrine.

21:14

Wow. Yeah, there actually are several out there. It's caused some problems in churches.

21:19

I've heard from several pastors where there's been a Flat Earther in a church or a whole Flat Earth family.

21:24

Sometimes there are homeschoolers that can really, really bust up a homeschool group. And sometimes they've been asked to leave churches or leave homeschool groups.

21:35

I've heard from wives whose husbands have gone nuts with this. I've heard from husbands whose wives have gone nuts from this.

21:42

I know of at least one person who's estranged from his father over this. So it's dividing families, dividing households, dividing churches, and even causing new churches to be founded on this one weird doctrine.

21:54

Wow. I mean, what is the typical theological position or positions of these churches that espouse a

22:09

Flat Earth? Is there any typical theological perspective, or are they just very much a diverse group?

22:19

They're extremely diverse. When I first started studying this, and I've been most interested in this Christian aspect of it,

22:26

I thought at first maybe I encountered people who were King James only, and I thought that was the thing.

22:32

But there are King James only Flat Earthers. But that doesn't seem to be the majority. There are many others over there who will use any translation that suits them.

22:40

They find a translation they think that fits into their frequency of cosmology, they'll use it. There are

22:46

Baptists. There are Presbyterians. There are Charismatics. There are Dispensationalists.

22:52

There are ardent Anti -Dispensationalists. So their eschatology can be a bit different. It's all over the map.

22:59

I've been trying to look for unity here, and the only thing that unifies them is steadfast belief that the

23:04

Earth is flat, and the Bible teaches that. Now, do any of these people appear to be intelligent?

23:12

Do they appear to be, in regard to their theology and doctrine, biblically literate?

23:20

Are they people who have a reasonably large vocabulary?

23:28

I mean, what's the story with what you have witnessed as far as folks that represent churches and even begin churches that are based on us?

23:39

Well, you should never underestimate these people. I've encountered people I thought were very intelligent. In fact, their own life is part of the problem,

23:47

I think. I've seen people, Med Flat Earthers, who are relatively intelligent people, but maybe they've not really accomplished much in their lives, and they reach a certain point where they—

24:01

I'm analyzing here, okay? I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a sociologist. I'm just offering my amateur observation here.

24:08

I think some of these people are motivated by the fact that they realize at, say, age 40 that they've not really done much with their given smarts.

24:17

They didn't finish college in many respects, and they're doing some job that's really below what they could be doing. So this is where they kind of redeem themselves.

24:24

They can stand out in the crowd, and they can appear very with it on things.

24:33

And this kind of squirms into something I've observed all along. I think one thing that's driving this is a form of gnosticism.

24:40

Gnosticism was a problem that infiltrated the early church from the very beginning, and they wrestled with it for several hundred years there early on.

24:47

Gnosticism at its core has the belief that there is secret knowledge, and if you attain that secret knowledge, then it will either bring you salvation or it will take you to a higher plane spiritually than other people.

25:04

And this appeal to secret knowledge is perverse, and it's widespread.

25:10

You know, gossip is popular for the same reason. I know something you don't know, but if you promise not to tell anybody,

25:16

I'll tell you. You'll be an addition along with me. And this is the problem going back to the garden, you know, when

25:21

Satan said to Eve, he said, you know, God knows if you eat this fruit, you will have knowledge of both good and evil.

25:28

And it says there, she thought, well, this is an appealing thing to have. So it worked in the garden. Temptation people, for some reason, are drawn to this aspect of knowing something that's generally not known.

25:39

And I think this is what's motivating many people, particularly ones that are underachievers, at least not up to the level that they had potential to achieve.

25:48

And they find a way that they can stand out, and they can prove to themselves, if nobody else, that they're smarter and alive because they have figured out all of this, where most people are asleep or have woken up.

26:02

But if you pay attention to them, and study like they've studied, you too can be initiated into this new thing out there.

26:10

By the way, we have one of my listeners, John and Banger Maine, who says, obviously, you know nothing about Oral Roberts' vision of Jesus.

26:22

It's a 900 -foot Jesus he saw, not a 70 -foot Jesus. OK, I know nothing about that, so I'm not going to go there.

26:32

He was obviously referring to me, not you. I know. Make that clear. That's your problem. Well, we're going to our first station break.

26:44

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

26:51

chrisarnson at gmail .com Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

26:59

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

27:05

Let's say you have been a believer in the flat Earth, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity.

27:14

I can understand that. Or, whatever the case may be, maybe you have close friends or family members that believe in a flat

27:23

Earth, and you don't want to unnecessarily hurt their feelings by identifying yourself.

27:29

Whatever the case is, if it's a personal and private question, I will grant your request to remain anonymous.

27:36

But, if you're just asking a general question, then please identify yourself with at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

27:48

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of our guest today,

27:57

Danny Faulkner. Was your business shut down during the

28:11

COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

28:20

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.

28:39

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the Pandemic Exclusion Clause.

28:46

The Pandemic Exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

28:58

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco &

29:03

Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878.

29:10

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation, and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

29:20

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you.

29:25

You do not have to pay them out of pocket, and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

29:33

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now.

29:39

Trust the law firm where the attorneys of one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York, are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

29:50

Buttafuoco & Associates. Here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

29:57

Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

30:32

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

30:42

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

30:50

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

31:04

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

31:10

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

31:17

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

31:26

That's liyfc .org. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

31:48

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

31:56

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

32:01

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

32:12

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

32:18

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

32:24

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my

32:30

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the

32:36

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the

32:45

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas, and the

32:54

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the

33:02

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

33:07

Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

33:14

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

33:23

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

33:36

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

33:41

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

33:48

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

33:55

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

34:05

All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

34:11

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin, tanned in Italy used for my

34:20

Nessie Olin 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

34:27

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

34:38

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

34:48

For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to PTLBibleRebinding .com.

34:56

That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. ¶¶ ¶¶

35:14

Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

35:28

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

35:45

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

35:56

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981.

36:02

717 -697 -1981. Or visit SolidRockRemodeling .com.

36:10

That's SolidRockRemodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

36:20

¶¶ I'm Dr.

36:26

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

36:37

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

36:44

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram.

36:51

Who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word.

37:00

And to enthusiastically proclaim Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

37:09

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

37:18

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

37:24

That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

37:33

That's 631 -696 -5711

37:38

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

38:00

We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.

38:06

Bhanu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies. Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

38:17

Bhanu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

38:24

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

38:34

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000 That's 516 -354 -2000

38:43

Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

38:48

That's L -E -E -S drugs rx .com Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

38:57

Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

39:09

In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

39:14

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

39:21

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what

39:26

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

39:36

God's design and once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

39:43

When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be pretty serious.

39:53

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

39:59

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

40:06

Thank you. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

40:18

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

40:24

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

40:32

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

40:38

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

40:51

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

40:59

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

41:04

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

41:13

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks, please always make solid -ground -books .com

41:24

your very first stop for all your gift -giving needs whether it be for birthdays, wedding anniversaries, back -to -school gifts, baptism celebrations, retirement gifts, perhaps even bereavement gifts if you know someone who has lost a loved one.

41:42

Go to solid -ground -books .com and remember, not only purchase books for your brothers and sisters in Christ there, but remember the lost, perhaps even more than your

41:53

Christian brethren need good solid Christian literature and the Lord could use books from solid -ground -books .com

42:01

to draw them to Christ where they will receive eternal life God -willing.

42:07

So, remember solid -ground -books .com and also remember that they are a vital sponsor of this program.

42:14

We would likely not exist as a program any longer were they to cancel their advertising with us we depend upon them that much so barring a miracle we probably would no longer be on the air without solid -ground

42:29

Christian books. And please always remember to mention that you heard about them through Chris Arns and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio at solid -ground -books .com

42:38

for the finest in Christian literature from the past and the present if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

42:49

Danny Faulkner and Danny Faulkner is on the team at Answers in Genesis we are discussing his book

42:59

Falling Flat A Refutation of Flat Earth Claims our email address is

43:04

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com ChrisArnsen at gmail .com

43:10

Please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

43:16

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter we have a listener that has been a guest on this program and I've actually been a guest on his program

43:28

I usually don't give the full names of our listeners but in this case I will because I want to promote his program his name is

43:36

Dwayne Atkinson he is the host of The Bar Podcast in Fayetteville, North Carolina and The Bar Podcast has nothing to do with alcoholic beverages and also the acronym does not stand for Black and Reformed a lot of people think that because Dwayne happens to be a black brother it stands for Biblical and Reformed but Dwayne asks something that you did sort of touch on but I don't know if you actually addressed this specific element of his question.

44:08

He said why did Flat Earth grow so fast in the church? You're talking about the last 5, 6, 7 years

44:16

I guess I think it's been promulgated by the internet In the past if you wanted to get your ideas out there you had to put them in books or something and you could put quite a lot of expense to publish the books but then can you get them in the hands of people can you force libraries to accept them and put them in a collection with the internet with almost no money down you can put up anything you want and unfortunately the last 5 to 10 years it's been an explosion of all sorts of crazy ideas out there not just Flat Earth, many, many other things so much so that many of the search engines and other social media platforms last year made real changes in the way that things were recommended to you.

44:58

If you went out there and started searching on conspiracy theories of some sort, then you would get a steady diet of more of these

45:04

YouTube videos and articles sent to you. When I first started looking at Flat Earth 4 and a half years ago, it was really easy for me to search,

45:13

I just type in Flat Earth and Google that and I would get up to 10 ,000 hits and searching through that I had a terrible time finding anything,

45:21

I do mean anything that was refuting it, it was like 0 for 1 ,000, everything was pro -Flat

45:29

Earth. Now the situation is reverse, now it's getting more difficult to find Flat Earth resources and there's just been a people go out there and spend a lot of time on the web and unfortunately many people seem to think that they see it on the internet it must be true, it used to be if you saw something in print it wasn't true now if it's on the internet it's true

45:47

I've had some interaction with some Flat Earthers through email and so forth and some face to face and they can repeat to me some of the most false things earlier today on a discussion group

46:02

I was just refuting the idea that Flat Earthers claim that Polaris the North Star is directly over the

46:08

North Pole, it never moves never deviates, it always has been the Pole Star and that is to astronomers that are nonsense the

46:15

North Star is about 3 quarters of a degree from what we call the North -Western Pole and it goes to a small circle every day every night,

46:24

I actually photographed part of that last weekend I took it with a telescope and recorded it and you can see it just going to a part of an arc furthermore the positions of the stars slowly change to a thing called precession and I know all about this because I'm an astronomer

46:42

I've been doing this for decades and so when I hear a Flat Earther say these totally baseless and false things it's crazy it's insane and yet they're not

46:55

Flat Earthers are not inclined to believe me at all they want to believe an anonymous person putting together a

47:00

YouTube video perhaps in their parent's basement, I don't know you don't know who these people are half the time and most of the time

47:06

I should say and yet people know who I am I'm an open book, I'm not hiding where I went to school, where my careers are from where I used to work, my publications are out there, people can investigate me and check out whether I'm for real or not and so people would rather take the word of an anonymous person in a

47:25

YouTube video than take my word on things like this, that's how bad it's gotten, people just want to believe what they want to believe and Christians unfortunately are not immune from this

47:36

Do you think a part of it obviously the internet is probably the primary vehicle why it's spread so fast but among the reasons do you think it could be, because I have met quite a number of professing

47:50

Christians that get so wrapped up in conspiracy theories, they have this paranoia of being fooled by anyone and while I think there is a lot of legitimacy to some conspiracy theories that are out there and the obvious the obvious fact that the liberal academics have become enemies of the church in many aspects especially folks like you who are legitimate scientists there are many liberals who would want you fired from any position that you may enjoy holding as a scientist if they had the authority to do so because they want the young earth and all the other things that are involved with Christians involved in the scientific realm, creationism itself but unfortunately these brethren or these professing

49:03

Christians they are on a rollercoaster that just won't stop with this and they just are buying into every kind of conspiracy theory that exists or at least many of them and it's like an addiction almost am

49:19

I making sense here? Yeah, conspiracy, we haven't gotten to that yet but conspiracy plays a huge role in this the way it works is if you come to believe that the earth is flat then you have to wonder why people have been lying to you about it people want to know better I mean most flat earthers are convinced that it's been 500 years ago the gulf got started and by the way they confuse geocentrism the idea that the earth is the center of things and doesn't move with flat earth many of the arguments they give is that they try to argue the earth is motionless so therefore the earth is flat and I'm saying no, that's not how it works remember

49:53

I said that the dominant model 2500 years in the west is that the earth is a globe but most of that time people thought that the earth also didn't move that changed about 400 years ago but they have to think then that if people have been lying to us about this scientists and heads of states and all these other people then why are they doing it, what's the motivation and there must be some huge conspiracy there and that's the only thing you can come up with at that point, you force them bound to fall in that idea that all this is a conspiracy and they go looking for the source of the conspiracy, who's doing it and why and there are three on the shelf conspiracy theorists that are out there already one is that the

50:39

Freemasons are behind it all and another is that the Jesuits are behind it all and the third one is that the

50:46

Zionist Jews are behind it all and all three to some degree or less or more is embraced by most flat earthers they will say it's the

50:55

Jesuits or the Zionists or it's the Freemasons or any combination thereof including all three sometimes and it's a world domination to control people's thoughts the

51:04

Christians tend to think it's in terms of the end times sort of prophecy they refer to the belief that the earth is a globe to part of that strong delusion that God will send upon the world we're believing a lie rather than the truth of course the problem with that is we've got a context the strong delusion is being sent to those who do not believe and the moment you start saying that the belief that the earth is flat as opposed to being a globe is part of the strong delusion that the globe is a strong belief you've just made that a salvation issue because it's pretty clear that that strong delusion that the faithful, the followers of Christ won't be exempt from that, they'll see through it so that's the kind of conspiracy that's here, so either you arrive at flat earth and then begin to look for all sorts of conspiracies out there with Satan behind it all ultimately or some people go from conspiracy to conspiracy to conspiracy, you know they have conspiracies about 9 -11, about conspiracies about the

52:03

Apollo moon landings and when they finally get to flat earth and land on flat earth they begin to realize this is the mother word of all conspiracies that absorbs all of them underneath all the other conspiracies

52:14

Yes and I've also found that there are certain personalities and they certainly exist in the body of Christ whether they are truly regenerate or not is always a case by case situation but you have individuals who love being a part of an elite group who think they have secret knowledge that nobody else has, kind of like a

52:39

Gnostic That's Gnosticism again, that's the attraction of conspiracy theories I could have mentioned that before but that's part of it too, if you believe that there are these vast conspiracies out there that too is a form of Gnosticism Yes, well

52:54

Dwayne I will send your email to our guest today

53:03

Danny Faulkner, in fact if you want to give me a more detailed email with your contact information and all that because Dwayne, just to let you know

53:13

Dr. Faulkner Dwayne Atkinson the host of The Bar Podcast would love to have you as a guest on his program

53:22

I'd be glad to do that So, if you could Dwayne, just send me a fuller, more detailed email about that and I'll pass it on to our guest

53:33

Danny Faulkner and for anybody who wants to know more about The Bar Podcast, go to thebarpodcast .com

53:41

thebarpodcast .com We have to go to our midway break right now It's a longer than normal break Please be patient with us, but it's the break in the middle of the show where Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

53:52

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer than normal break in the middle of the show because they have to, in accordance to FCC regulations, localize

54:03

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida So they do so by airing their own public service announcements and other local things.

54:09

While they do that we air our own globally heard commercials Please use this time wisely by writing down as much of the information as you can, provided by our advertisers so that they will more than likely remain our advertisers because we depend upon our advertisers to exist.

54:28

We cannot remain on the air without the funding of our advertisers, so please try to patronize them as much as possible.

54:34

And you'll more successfully and frequently do that if you write down their information. But also write down questions for Danny Faulkner on the

54:41

Flat Earth Claims. Our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

54:48

give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Danny Faulkner and refuting

54:56

Flat Earth Claims after these messages from our sponsors. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

55:02

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

55:08

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

55:14

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

55:21

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

55:28

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

55:34

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

55:40

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 ,000 ,000 or more.

55:51

And in approximately 10 different states. In Illinois his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the state's history.

55:59

In New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state

56:10

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

56:17

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878

56:25

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com That's chrisarnson at gmail .com

56:43

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

57:05

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

57:14

New York debates. I cannot hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled and edified by the

57:24

Holy Scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

57:29

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

57:35

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

57:43

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711

57:49

That's 631 -696 -5711 That's 631 -696 -5711 Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music compromise, and yet God has raised

01:00:00

Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the Body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

01:00:09

I am pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

01:00:15

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

01:00:23

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:00:30

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Here's what

01:00:39

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

01:00:45

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

01:00:55

Wow, that's something. much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

01:01:02

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

01:01:09

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

01:01:16

Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

01:01:31

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:01:37

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

01:01:46

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers, which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:01:58

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:02:04

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:02:18

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:02:28

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:02:36

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:02:41

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:02:54

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:02:59

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:03:07

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

01:03:12

NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the

01:03:21

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of TheReformRookie .com

01:03:28

and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:03:33

I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the NASB is my

01:03:39

Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the

01:03:44

Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

01:03:54

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

01:04:03

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

01:04:13

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

01:04:19

Iron Trumpet Zion Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:04:25

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet Zion Radio.

01:04:34

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:05:34

That's the Thriving Story. As host of Iron Trumpet Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:06:05

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:06:15

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

01:06:23

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:06:29

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

01:06:34

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

01:06:49

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:06:58

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

01:07:05

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:07:14

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Charles Hatton Spurgeon once said,

01:07:30

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

01:07:38

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:07:43

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the past and puts them into a book.

01:07:50

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

01:08:02

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

01:08:07

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

01:08:14

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

01:08:24

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Was your business shut down during the

01:08:45

COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income?

01:08:55

Maybe you've had to close your doors for good. The good news, you thought, was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands.

01:09:14

You filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause.

01:09:21

The pandemic exclusion? Since 2006, most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic.

01:09:33

Do not give up. No matter what state you live in, call Buttafuoco & Associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878.

01:09:44

Buttafuoco & Associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead counsel to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims.

01:09:56

It is the best way for you to proceed. There's absolutely no risk to you. You do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim.

01:10:07

You need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now.

01:10:13

Trust a law firm where the attorneys of one of the largest business firms on Long Island, New York are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit.

01:10:24

Buttafuoco & Associates, here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic.

01:10:32

Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. Welcome back, this is

01:10:43

Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is

01:10:51

Danny Faulkner. He is on the staff at Answers in Genesis. We have been addressing his book,

01:10:57

Falling Flat, a Refutation of Flat Earth Claims. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:11:08

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:11:17

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Before we return to Danny Faulkner, I just have a couple of announcements to make.

01:11:26

First of all, tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, we are continuing our new series on the

01:11:32

Book of Romans with our guest, Dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington.

01:11:37

And he is pastor of Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania.

01:11:43

This will be part two of our new series on Romans, so I hope that you tune in tomorrow and get your questions ready on the

01:11:52

Book of Romans for Dr. Waddington. Also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, we have been hit very hard financially because of the hysteria connected with the coronavirus pandemic.

01:12:07

We have lost our two largest financial supporters, and I'm hoping it's just temporary, who were so horrendously impacted financially in their own businesses that they had to put on hiatus any further support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:12:24

So please help us make up for this huge loss of income. Please help us remain on the air if you love the show by going to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:12:33

click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

01:12:40

You could also mail in a check the old -fashioned way, if you prefer that via snail mail, to the address that appears on your screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:12:51

Please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your own local church where you are a member in order to give to us.

01:12:59

Please never do that, and never put your own family in financial jeopardy if you are really struggling to make ends meet.

01:13:06

Those two things are commands of scripture providing for your church and your home. Providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of scripture, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you love this show, and you don't want it to disappear, please,

01:13:22

I'm urging you go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now, and please give as generously as you can, and as frequently as you can.

01:13:31

We are really in urgent need, and if you would prefer advertising with us, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:13:41

and put advertising in the subject line. We can explore together a possible launching of an ad campaign for whatever it is you want to promote, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

01:13:53

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you do need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what

01:13:59

I believe. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line. Also folks, if you are not a member of a biblically faithful, theologically solid church in your area,

01:14:11

I have lists of churches that fit that description all over the planet earth, and I have helped many people in our audience find churches that sometimes they didn't even realize existed right around the corner from where they live.

01:14:24

I can help you find churches, God willing, because I do have an extensive list.

01:14:30

So please, if that fits your description of being without a church home that's biblically solid, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:14:39

and put I need a church in the subject line. Whether you're looking for a church to join yourself, or if you have a family friend or loved one who is without a church, or if you are going on vacation somewhere,

01:14:51

I can help you, God willing, with a church anywhere on the planet earth. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:14:58

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

01:15:04

Danny Faulkner, who is on the team with Answers in Genesis. We were discussing his book,

01:15:11

Falling Flat, A Refutation of Flat Earth Claims. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:15:17

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

01:15:26

Just want to give my friend Dwayne Atkinson from the

01:15:32

Bar Podcast a bit of good news that I forgot to tell him. You have won a free copy of the book we are addressing,

01:15:39

Falling Flat, A Refutation of Flat Earth Claims, thanks to our friend Brittany Pratt over at Master Books.

01:15:49

Thank you so much, Brittany, and thank all of our folks at Master Books for the donation of these books that we are giving away today.

01:16:01

And we always enjoy the support you provide for Iron Trip and Zion Radio by supplying us with excellent books when we are interviewing your authors.

01:16:14

We have a listener who asked two questions and he's a first -time listener, so I want to treat him as best as I can today.

01:16:26

One of the questions he asked you've already started to answer, but perhaps you could be more in -depth about what it is he was actually asking about.

01:16:38

He says, Hi, Mr. Aronson, thank you so much for your in -depth and diverse, in a good way, shows on a broad range of topics.

01:16:47

I find them edifying and interesting. This is Ian, by the way, in Swansea, South Carolina, and I am assuming that's how you spell, or how you pronounce

01:16:57

S -W -A -N -S -E -A, Swansea or Swansea. In light of a question recently posed by another listener to Dr.

01:17:07

Jason Lyle that seemed to confuse two concepts,

01:17:13

I was hoping Dr. Faulkner could explain the difference and similarities between flat earth and geocentrism.

01:17:23

And also, on a side note, you mentioned that Robert St. Genes held to a geocentric view. I'm assuming that he is not a flat earther, is that correct?

01:17:32

I am almost 100 % positive that Robert St. Genes, who is a friend of mine, although he is a

01:17:37

Roman Catholic apologist, and I oppose very aggressively and fervently and vociferously many of the key things that he believes, but I have arranged theological debates with Robert St.

01:17:51

Genes over the years and have become a good friend of his, even though I disagree with him radically on many things.

01:17:58

But he is a geocentrist, and I'm almost certain he's not a flat earther. So, could you tell us in more detail the difference between those two things?

01:18:06

Yeah, Robert St. Genes definitely believes geocentrism is the globe. He had a Flat Earth International Conference almost two years ago.

01:18:14

He and Rob Skiba debated whether the Earth is flat. I thought it was an interesting debate because they agreed on the

01:18:21

Earth not moving, but they disagreed on the Earth's shape. Geocentrism is a belief that the

01:18:27

Earth is the center of the universe. It does not move, and other things move around it. We can mean that in two senses, particularly if you believe the

01:18:34

Earth is a globe. Some geocentrists believe the Earth rotates each day. That's different from revolving.

01:18:40

Revolving means you're moving around, orbiting around another object. So, all geocentrists would agree that the

01:18:46

Earth does not revolve or orbit the Sun every year, but some geocentrists who believe the

01:18:52

Earth is a globe believe the Earth rotates every day. So, when the Sun rises, moves across the sky and sets each day, that's due to the

01:18:59

Earth's rotation on its axis. So, globe -believing geocentrists are divided as to whether the

01:19:06

Earth rotates or not. Those are two different subjects within the geocentric movement. The geocentrists, the classical,

01:19:13

I'll call them, if you will, geocentrists, believe in what's called the Tychonic Model, named after Tico Brahe, a

01:19:21

Danish astronomer from about 400 years ago. And he was there right at the beginning of when heliocentrism, the idea the

01:19:28

Earth is one of several planets orbiting the Sun, began to be talked about and began to be accepted. And he offered a sort of a compromised cosmology.

01:19:36

He had all the other planets orbiting around the Sun, but the Sun, in turn, orbited around the

01:19:42

Earth, taking those planets with them as they did. So, it was a kind of a compromise between that and the classical, from the way back in the past, the ancient idea that the planets went through what we call epicycles, little motions, round and round, circles, that caused them to move back and forth in the sky.

01:20:04

That geocentric model, the Tychonic Model, is basically a coordinate transformation from the

01:20:09

Earth orbiting the Sun to the Earth sitting still. If you start with the idea that the Earth is orbiting the

01:20:15

Sun, and then you somehow park the Earth and make it sit still, then, of course, the Sun is going to move around the

01:20:20

Earth. And that's basically what modern geocentrists believed. And that movement began about a half century ago.

01:20:28

A guy named Walter Van Kemp began distributing a little letter among other pastors that he knew, back in 1967,

01:20:35

I believe. About the early 70s, started actually a little organization. Gerardus Blau, who was an astronomer, joined forces with him,

01:20:45

I think, in 1976, and has since taken over that movement. Van Kemp himself is deceased, has been for a couple of decades,

01:20:51

I think. And Gerardus Blau has, for the past 40 years, has been the primary proponent of geocentrism.

01:21:01

Again, he would agree very much so with Robert Sangenis.

01:21:08

The Earth is a globe, but it doesn't move. The flat earthers believe that the

01:21:13

Earth is not only flat, but doesn't move. And I point out to people that all flat earthers have to be geocentrists.

01:21:21

But not all geocentrists are flat earthers. And people confuse that all the time.

01:21:28

400 years ago was when we made the paradigm shift from the geocentric model to the heliocentric model.

01:21:35

And it was a century before that when we allegedly started believing the Earth was a globe. That's a whole

01:21:40

Columbus myth, when I pointed out before, that's just mythology. But in the minds of most people, they easily confuse the two.

01:21:48

I've heard many flat earthers argue that Copernicus introduced the globe -Earth model, and that's not true.

01:21:56

By the time Copernicus came along, the Earth being a globe was widely accepted, had been for 2 ,000 years, at least in the

01:22:01

West. So there's a lot of confusion on that front. Yeah, I might have even been taught that Columbus originally thought he would fall off the

01:22:10

Earth in school. I think I heard that from... Well, you were taught that growing up.

01:22:15

I remember back when my son was in fifth grade at a Christian school, and they were discussing this stuff, and I got his textbook, and I began reading it, the relevant section, and I saw that they did a pretty good job of describing this.

01:22:28

It was in a Becca publication. They got it right in the textbook about what was really going on with Columbus. But his teacher, bless her heart, she went on and shared with them our shared mythology about Columbus.

01:22:40

She obviously didn't read the textbook carefully, otherwise she would have known better than that. Okay, well,

01:22:47

Ian from Swansea, South Carolina's second question was, how would

01:22:53

Dr. Faulkner recommend defending the biblical nature of a spherical

01:22:58

Earth view to both the Christian flat earther and the scientific skeptic, especially with a view to being respectful and not argumentative while presenting the truth?

01:23:12

Well, it turns out the flat earthers have had a field day when I say this, but I believe the cosmology of the

01:23:21

Bible is ambiguous. The Bible doesn't tell us that the Earth is flat or a globe.

01:23:26

The Bible doesn't tell us that the Earth orbits the sun or if the Earth is set still. Now, the cosmogony is clear enough.

01:23:34

Cosmogony refers to the origin and history of the world. Cosmology refers to the structure of the world, how it's put together and how it works in the here and now.

01:23:42

The cosmogony is given to us pretty clearly in chapter one of Genesis, but the cosmology is not there. Now, I've heard over the years, over the decades, many

01:23:49

Christian scientists, creation scientists, argue that Isaiah 40, 22 indicates that the

01:23:55

Earth is a globe. It says there, referring to God, he sits on the circle of the Earth and happens to arrive like grasshoppers.

01:24:02

That's the first part of the verse, at least. And they say the word there, where people would assume it means something that's ball -shaped, globe -shaped.

01:24:13

Well, the flat earthers are fond of pointing out that there's another verse in Isaiah that gets off the top of my head.

01:24:22

I think it's 22, 18, I believe. That speaks of God saying that he would toss them like a ball into a field.

01:24:32

And the word used there is dur. And Hebrew word, and they say, see, this word dur means ball or globe.

01:24:39

And so if Isaiah wanted to say that the world is a globe or a ball, he would have used the word dur here.

01:24:45

So therefore, this proves that the Earth is not a globe. So it's interesting that both globists and people who believe the

01:24:51

Earth is a globe, people who believe the Earth is flat, want to use Isaiah 40, 22 to make their case.

01:25:00

I look at, I talk to Hebraists, and I know several world -class Hebraists, and I've asked them this question, and they tell me that the word dur refers to something round.

01:25:11

Now, could it be a two -dimensional round like a circle? Yes. Could it be a three -dimensional round like a ball? And the answer, again, is yes.

01:25:18

In fact, Chris, if you ask most people what shape the Earth is, most people say it's round. Now, that's a question in the past.

01:25:24

I've never heard anybody say, well, the Earth is a globe, or the Earth is a ball. They always say it's round. Well, the Flat Earthers believe the Earth is round.

01:25:29

They believe it's round and flat, a disk, not a globe. So the word round in English is ambiguous at best, and the words dur and fug are ambiguous at best as well.

01:25:43

What's interesting is the Flat Earthers like to bring up this other verse in Isaiah that uses the word dur, but it appears one other time in the book of Isaiah in chapter 29, verse 3, and it talks about the

01:25:56

Lord sieging the city of Zion, the Jerusalem, and put up siege works around the city.

01:26:04

Obviously there, the word dur used there is referring to an encirclement, something that's a two -dimensional round.

01:26:09

So when Flat Earthers argue the word dur means ball and can only mean ball at nothing else, it's demonstrably false.

01:26:17

It's not true, which is par for the course. I find that most of the claims that Flat Earthers make, if you really examine them, they end up falling short of their claims.

01:26:26

So they're a bit dishonest. They will point to this other word in Isaiah that's used, but they never point to the other time that word is used that totally undermines their argument.

01:26:35

So to get back to the original question, as I said, the cosmology of the Bible is a bit ambiguous.

01:26:41

It doesn't really clearly tell us what the Earth's shape is, and so I can't really say what the Bible clearly teaches the

01:26:47

Earth is a globe. It doesn't teach the Earth is flat either. It's kind of neutral in the subject. If you think about it, that's a very good thing because had

01:26:54

God endorsed a particular cosmology in the scriptures, it would have caused derision at one time or another.

01:27:02

If the Bible would have endorsed the idea that the Earth is a globe, then when time was written, it would have been dismissed as being false because we know the

01:27:11

Earth is flat. And then, of course, if it endorsed flat cosmology, then today we would say, well, we know the Bible's wrong because it endorses the

01:27:19

Earth being flat. We know better than that. So I think it's pretty wise on the part of the Lord not to endorse either particular one.

01:27:25

And even God doesn't tell us everything in scripture. It doesn't mention white blood cells or red blood cells, for instance. It doesn't mention atoms.

01:27:31

We have very good reasons for believing all those things exist. God tells us, reveals to us what we need to know in the scriptures, but there are many other things that I think he leaves it up to us to kind of decide, and I think the

01:27:41

Earth's shape is one of those. Well, Ian in Swansea, South Carolina, thank you for your two excellent questions.

01:27:48

Please give us your full mailing address in Swansea, South Carolina, because you have also won a free copy of the book we are addressing,

01:27:57

Falling Flat, A Refutation of Flat Earth Claims. Now we have a serious question, or actually,

01:28:07

I guess he sent in a comment before, but John in Bangor, Maine sent in a question, or actually it was a comment correcting my size of Oral Roberts' Jesus.

01:28:21

It wasn't 70 foot, it was a 900 foot Jesus. I wasn't going to give him a free book for that, but he sent in a very good question that is a follow -up of Ian's.

01:28:36

John in Bangor, Maine asks, unlike the flat earthers who have absolutely no scientists backing up their ridiculous claims, are there geocentrists who are accredited scientists?

01:28:52

Yes, I've already mentioned at least one, Gerardus Blau. He had his PhD in astronomy, or maybe it's physics and astronomy,

01:28:59

I don't recall which, from Case Western Reserve University, which is a good school, has a good program. There may be a few others that have degrees of various types, and a guy named

01:29:09

Hanson who's been supported, I don't know what his background is, but yet there are some scientists who are actually geocentrists.

01:29:17

Yeah, when I saw the trailer, I've not seen the documentary, but I saw the trailer on geocentrism that Roberts and Jennis was a part of creating.

01:29:25

It looked like a very slick production with people that seem to be fairly intelligent who are in the scientific realm.

01:29:35

What happened was those people, such as Lawrence Krauss and even

01:29:40

John Hartnett, who was a creationist, they're not geocentrists, but they were used, they were filmed and then used in the documentary that later on said, well, we didn't know where this was going.

01:29:53

Even Kate Mulgrew, who was the narrator from, she was an actress who played on Star Trek Voyager, she was upset because she didn't know what the thing was all about.

01:30:03

They were pretty upset with Roberts and Jennis over this. The people they interviewed there were not geocentrists.

01:30:13

You could certainly think that they might be the way they were presented in the book and in the movie. Well, thank you,

01:30:21

John. Now you are getting a free copy of the book. Give us your full mailing address in Bangor, Maine.

01:30:27

We have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia, who says, would the flat earthers believe that the other celestial bodies,

01:30:35

Mars, Venus, etc., are also flat or a sphere? First of all, they would object that the other planets are anything like the

01:30:46

Earth. We haven't described their cosmology at all. Let me briefly mention this so I can answer the question better.

01:30:53

The belief that they have is called the Zetetic Model. It was not like any of the flat Earth models of the past.

01:30:59

In ancient times, most cultures did have a flat Earth cosmology. There was a flat Earth cosmology in which the sun rose and set and went underneath the

01:31:06

Earth every night. It was not like the Zetetic Model. With the Zetetic Cosmology introduced by Robottom in the 19th century, there's a dome over top of the

01:31:13

Earth, round flat Earth that it is, and it's sort of like a snow globe. It's sometimes been called a snow globe model.

01:31:21

And every day, the entire dome spins around. It has the stars attached to it, and they spin around above the stationary

01:31:26

Earth. And the sun and the moon are just below that, and they spin around too on their own motion, a little independent of the stars spinning around in that dome over top.

01:31:37

And so when you ask them about planets, there are five naked -eye planets that look like bright stars to the naked eye, but when you look at them through a telescope, they have round disks.

01:31:46

Except for Mars, and it goes through some Gibbs phases which suggest that it's a ball.

01:31:51

And Mercury and Venus both go through phases suggesting they are balls as well. And they would...

01:31:59

The flat Earths I've talked to have been rather noncommittal. They don't really care. They think that there aren't any planets.

01:32:05

They don't even like that word, planet. They think they're just wandering stars, and some of them think that the planets are wandering stars of angels that have fallen from their highest state.

01:32:21

And others think they're some illuminance. This is sound waves getting rise to light. That's the argument they gave.

01:32:26

Again, it's a really strange belief. But they would deny that they're planets in the sense that we would say and believe generally.

01:32:35

And they're noncommittal about the shape. They say just because it looks round doesn't mean they're a ball at all.

01:32:40

It simply means they're round disks. Incidentally, most flat Earthers would say that the Sun and the

01:32:45

Moon are disks. They're not globes. They're disks that move around the top of the

01:32:50

Earth. Well, thank you, Lou. And give me your full mailing address in Sharpsburg, Georgia, because you have also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing,

01:33:02

Falling Flat, A Refutation of Flat Earth Claims. Thank you again,

01:33:09

Brittany Pratt and the folks at Master Books for providing us with these copies.

01:33:17

We're going to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last two breaks. If you have any intention to send in an email with a question, please do so quickly before we run out of time.

01:33:28

And those that are already waiting, please be patient with us. We will get to as many of you as possible before the end of the broadcast.

01:33:37

And it looks like I might be able to squeeze all of you in, God willing, at least the ones that we already have waiting online.

01:33:44

If you want to join them and get online, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:33:51

Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Danny Faulkner right after these messages from our sponsors with more on the

01:33:58

Flat Earth Theory. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

01:34:06

Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

01:34:21

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

01:34:32

Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

01:34:39

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

01:34:50

Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational, historical message that will captivate you and your church.

01:35:02

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

01:35:10

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

01:35:17

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

01:35:24

today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Shrub and Zion Radio.

01:35:44

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:35:50

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:35:56

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:36:03

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:36:21

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:36:27

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

01:36:37

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:36:43

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:36:52

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:37:14

We are excited to announce another new member of the

01:37:24

Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family, Banu Gadi, owner of three

01:37:29

New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

01:37:38

Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

01:37:45

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

01:37:55

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

01:38:01

That's 516 -354 -2000. Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.

01:38:09

That's L -E -E -S drugsrx .com. Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

01:38:30

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:38:37

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

01:38:46

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:38:59

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:39:05

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:39:18

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:39:28

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:39:36

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

01:39:42

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:39:54

When Iron Sharpens Iron radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:39:59

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:40:07

Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

01:40:13

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

01:40:18

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

01:40:27

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

01:40:36

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

01:40:43

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

01:40:51

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of East Fort Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

01:40:59

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

01:41:04

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:41:10

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:41:19

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

01:41:28

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:41:40

Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

01:41:47

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:41:54

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

01:42:02

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

01:42:09

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:42:15

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit

01:42:23

Lindbrookbaptist .org. That's Lindbrookbaptist .org. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, a frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpman's Iron Radio.

01:42:36

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:42:44

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:42:51

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

01:42:57

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:43:10

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:43:23

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

01:43:33

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

01:43:40

That's CVBBS .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:43:48

And I want to thank CVBBS .com for shipping out our winners all the books that have been donated by MasterBooks.

01:44:00

CVBBS .com for years now has shipped out our winners everything they win on the show when we are interviewing authors.

01:44:10

And they ship out free Bibles to first -time questioners. By the way, all of the first -time questioners who have submitted questions today, in addition of receiving the book

01:44:21

Falling Flat, you will receive a free

01:44:26

New American Standard Bible as well, compliments of the publishers of the NASB, a primary sponsor of this program.

01:44:34

And these books, the book and the Bible will be shipped to you by CVBBS .com, which saves

01:44:40

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio a ton of money on shipping costs. Let's see here.

01:44:46

We have some more questions for Danny Faulkner. We have another first -time questioner and her name is

01:45:00

Teresa. I'm sorry, not Teresa. It's Thelma. Thelma in Grand Prairie, Texas.

01:45:08

Have you come across a person that says they are a Christian and if we do not believe the earth is flat, we are being deceived and therefore not saved.

01:45:21

Have you met any flat earthers that are that rigid? Not yet.

01:45:27

As I mentioned earlier in our discussion, there are people who come very close to that. And so when

01:45:32

I start talking about the strong delusions or strong deception that will take place in the latter days,

01:45:39

I point out to them that that is directed, the strong delusion will be sent to people who don't know

01:45:45

Christ. And so if you think that belief that the earth is a globe is a strong delusion, then you are making that a salvation issue and they back off What they generally say is they think that belief the earth is a globe is part of the strong delusion.

01:46:01

But so far, I have not yet met anybody who says if you don't believe the earth is flat, you can't be saved.

01:46:07

I think most of them understand the danger of that kind of position. But I think people get, some of them get dangerously close to that position.

01:46:17

Well, thank you, Thelma. And if you give me your full mailing address there in Prairie, Grand Prairie, Texas, I will make sure that CVBBS .com

01:46:31

ships out to you a free copy of Falling Flat, a Refutation of Flat Earth Claims and also a

01:46:38

New American Standard Bible, since you're a first time questioner. And Thelma, you have won the last copy of this book that we are giving away.

01:46:47

And we thank once again, Brittany Pratt over at Master Books for generously providing us with these books that we have given away.

01:46:59

Sorry for everybody else that the others beat you to getting us these questions.

01:47:07

Let's see here. We have Ted in Moundville, Alabama, who says,

01:47:14

I have been a big fan of the debates that Dr. Faulkner has done on young earth creationism.

01:47:20

He has been for a long time, this old earth creationist favorite young earth creationist.

01:47:27

I wanted to put the same question to Dr. Faulkner that I asked of Dr. Lyle last week on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:47:36

Could Dr. Faulkner recommend sources on young earth creationism and old earth creationism debates that could be readily understood by non -scientists?

01:47:51

Having read a great deal of literature on both sides of this issue, my frustration has been that I do not have the scientific training or aptitude to enable me to judge the relative merits or demerits of each side's argument.

01:48:06

That's Ted in Moundville, Alabama. Oh, boy. Off the top of my head, no.

01:48:13

I mean, I can recommend some some some resources from the recent creation perspective, six -day recent creation perspective.

01:48:27

But I'm not really aware of any side -by -side comparisons between the two of them. There have been a few debates or intensive debates, but the most active ones have been with Hugh Ross, who is a progressive creationist, and both

01:48:38

Jason Lyle and I have actually engaged in some programs who are with them before. That would be the closest, but I don't think they're really comprehensive about what you're looking for.

01:48:48

OK, thanks, Ted. And we have Phil Cessa. I gave his full name because Phil has also been a guest on my program, and he is the founder of a wonderful ministry in New York City called

01:49:02

Soul Fishing Ministries. That has absolutely nothing to do with the literal sport or recreation known as fishing.

01:49:11

It refers only to the spread of the gospel and especially in the inner city of New York.

01:49:20

But Phil asks, I don't know if you went over this, but where does the flat earthers say a

01:49:28

NASA space shuttle goes after it takes off and doesn't return for months?

01:49:35

Wouldn't all the other nations have to keep a hush if the shuttle somehow stays above the clouds around the world until the nets are filled?

01:49:45

Oh, that's his sign off. Until the nets are filled. Phil Cessa, director of Soul Fishing Ministries.

01:49:53

Do you have that? The flat earthers would say that the launch of a vehicle into space goes downrange.

01:50:01

If you look at the trail, particularly at night, you can see it. The thing will go up and then it curves off to the east.

01:50:08

And what they're arguing is it's just the beginning of a ballistic trajectory. It's a parabolic orbit. It goes way up and then drops back down.

01:50:15

The place it drops down is well beyond the horizon. So it lands out in the ocean somewhere, an island somewhere, off in the

01:50:21

Atlantic. It's launched from the Cape in Florida. And all the other space agencies around the world are in on this.

01:50:29

You know, the Soviet and now the Russian space program, they're all faking it. We're faking it.

01:50:35

The European Space Agency is faking it. There are a few dozen nations now with space agencies. All of them are faking it.

01:50:41

So it's a vast cabal, a vast conspiracy among the heads of many different nations and the people in positions of authority to know better than this.

01:50:50

So that's the short answer. It's all been faked and they're all in on it. They're not about to blow the whistle on each other.

01:50:56

And the reasons, or the at least theorized reasons that all the governments of the

01:51:04

Earth are doing this? Well, some of them will, again, tell you that that's the theological faintings that in times, this is part of the deception that's building.

01:51:14

Others would argue it's simply a control of the masses. Some people argued that maybe it's beyond the dome.

01:51:21

They say that Antarctica doesn't exist. It's just an ice wall that surrounds this round, flat Earth. But I mean, the world is resting on that or beyond the ice wall.

01:51:30

And the possibility is that there are other domed worlds out there. And so there's a lot more real estate.

01:51:37

And all these worlds have been fought over resources and real estate. And what if you knew that there's a whole lot out there?

01:51:43

Well, then people could leave and go and colonize those and you wouldn't have control over people anymore. So I mean, there are all sorts of different views of what the point of purpose is of maintaining this conspiracy that the world's the globe and they know it isn't.

01:51:58

And of course, there are those who deny that we ever landed on the moon who are not flat Earthers. Yeah, I mentioned before that this thing has kind of flooded the movement has kind of absorbed all the other conspiracies.

01:52:14

Yeah, so my father, by the way, helped design the lunar module, which was the first space vessel that landed on the moon.

01:52:23

And he, I don't think, would have been able to keep a secret like that for as long as he did, if that was all a fake thing.

01:52:32

Well, your father wasn't high enough in the structure of NASA. Some of the people at the top and the astronauts, they didn't know the average person working there.

01:52:40

They didn't need to be in on this. So they thought his dad thought he was actually designing the lab when he when he really was designing a fake thing.

01:52:48

Right. Yeah, he worked for Grumman Aerospace, by the way. Let's see, we have.

01:52:56

I just saw another question and it disappeared. Where are you? Oh, here it is.

01:53:03

Oh, I wanted to give I just wanted a quick give Phil Sess's website to give him a little plug here.

01:53:09

soulfishingministries .org soulfishingministries .org Thanks a lot,

01:53:14

Phil, for your question. We have Grady, another faithful listener to this program and faithful financial supporter.

01:53:23

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings, brothers. Does Flat Earth do he should have said do

01:53:29

Flat Earth believers think that the Earth continues and has no end or do they think it continues to new frontiers?

01:53:39

I wonder if he's confusing the Earth with the Starship Enterprise. But I kind of alluded to that in my previous answer to a question.

01:53:50

It was they're divided on this. Some people believe this is more along the so -called biblical

01:53:56

Flat Earthers that the Earth, the dome over sitting around Earth is it that God made no other other worlds like ours.

01:54:04

But other more secular Flat Earthers think that there may be this infinite Flat Plane or at least a very large

01:54:10

Flat Plane. There may be other other domes out there besides ours. And so they're divided.

01:54:16

Depends who you ask. There's a lot of I mentioned earlier in our discussion. There's a lot much diversity in the

01:54:21

Flat Earth movement. This is one of those points they differ on. If you could tell us about the

01:54:28

Bedford level experiment in the Chicago skyline. OK, those are the in the 19th century that the

01:54:36

Bedford level experiment was Exhibit A for them. In the 21st century, Chicago's skyline is

01:54:41

Exhibit A for them. And what Robobin did is he went up to this area in eastern

01:54:47

England called Bedford level. It's a drainage canal slash river. It's straight for six miles.

01:54:53

There's no vertical relief. It's near the ocean. And the river there just has no current to it.

01:55:00

It has no pitch to it. And so what Robobin did is he got down into the water and stationed the telescope about eight inches above the surface of the water.

01:55:11

Now, eight inches is significant because if the Earth is a globe 25 ,000 miles in circumference, and if you position your eye eight inches above the water, then the horizon will be one mile away.

01:55:24

It'll be tangent to the Earth's surface there. So if an object moves farther away than that one mile, it will progressively begin to disappear from the bottom first.

01:55:33

So Robobin hires somebody to take a boat and row down the length of this drainage canal the whole six miles.

01:55:40

And if they went away to one mile away and then beyond that, it could go an additional five miles.

01:55:46

And if the Earth was a globe, he reasoned that the boat should start disappearing. And he had a big white or red,

01:55:54

I think it was a white placard or sign or flag on it about five or six feet high.

01:56:00

And over the next five miles, the amount of curvature should amount to about 20 feet. And so if the

01:56:06

Earth is a globe 25 ,000 miles in circumference, then the entire boat should disappear from the bottom all the way up.

01:56:13

So you shouldn't see any of it. He solved the boat the entire way. So he said, okay, if the

01:56:18

Earth is a globe, we should see it disappear. We don't see it disappear. Therefore, the Earth must not be a globe. It must be flat.

01:56:24

And that was his big argument. Now, it turns out there's a big, long story.

01:56:32

I don't have time to talk in about this, but there was actually a big, a bed or a wager set on this.

01:56:38

And the person who came and took the bed was Alfred Ward Wallace.

01:56:44

He was a major proponent of evolution in the 19th century. He went out to this place, except he positioned his telescope higher.

01:56:53

And he indeed saw the boat disappear whole first. And he thought for sure that the person he made a wager with would see this and realize that it was all wrong, that the

01:57:07

Earth was not flat. And to his astonishment, the flat Earther said, you know,

01:57:13

I've seen the boat. And he didn't. That was the weird part of just how much you can be flabbergasted by somebody who will deny what's clearly not there.

01:57:24

At any rate, the modern version of Joshua Maliki is an excellent photographer.

01:57:30

He does these marvelous photographs of Chicago skyline taken from the other across Lake Michigan in the state of Michigan, more than 50 miles away.

01:57:38

And the other curvature should be almost 2 ,000 feet and nothing on the Chicago skyline is that tall.

01:57:43

So how can you see that if the Earth is a globe? Well, the answer to both these problems is what we call atmospheric refraction caused by a temperature inversion.

01:57:53

This is again, whacking in the weeds of physics, but on a clear day during a warm summer and spring days, particularly, it's an everyday occurrence that you get a temperature inversion, colder air in contact with the cold water there and warmer air above.

01:58:07

And that traps light traveling parallel to the Earth, to be tensed to the Earth's surface there.

01:58:13

It can't escape. It gets bent or refracted continually. And it can go for miles and miles like that.

01:58:19

If you do this on a day when there is no temperature inversion, and it turns out in my book, I describe how

01:58:24

I did that on the day which was no temperature inversion. You actually see ships that disappear. This is a big argument to people that flat earthers like to use.

01:58:33

They show pictures of drilling rigs and other things out in the water that shouldn't be visible if the Earth is a globe, but they totally ignore the temperature inversion and the refraction that makes that possible.

01:58:45

And that's most hasty to add those beautiful pictures of the Chicago skyline taken by Joshua Nowicki. He's not a flat earther.

01:58:53

He knows optics. He knows how to use this camera properly. And he goes out with a huge zoom lens and takes these provocative photographs because you shouldn't be able to see

01:59:03

Chicago, but there it is. He knows what conditions will produce this, and he really knows what he's doing. But again, he's not a flat earther.

01:59:09

People who believe that shows the Earth is flat ought to take that in consideration. Well, I'm sorry,

01:59:15

Johnny in Queens, New York, and all the other listeners that are waiting to have their questions asked. We've run out of time. If you want more information on Answers in Genesis, where our guest

01:59:24

Danny Faulkner is on the team there, go to Answers in Genesis dot org.

01:59:30

Answers in Genesis dot org. I want to thank you so much, Dr. Faulkner, for being our guest today, and I look forward to your many returns to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:59:40

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.