January 30, 2018 Show with John Otis on “The Federal Vision Revisited by One of Its Published Critics”

The Federal Vision Revisited and the Need to Define It Clearly

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host. Good afternoon, Cumberland County,.

Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30th day of January. 2017 and I'm so delighted to have an old friend back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio after a very long absence, my dear friend Pastor John Marshall Otis.

Pastor John was an ordained minister by Westminster Presbytery of the Presbyterian Church in America, having served as a campus pastor at East Tennessee State University, pastor of Coburn Presbyterian Church in Coburn, Virginia, ruling elder at Calcedon Presbyterian Church in the RPCUS, Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States, in Cumming, Georgia, pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church RPCUS in Corpus Christi, Texas, pastor of Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church RPCUS in Burlington, North Carolina, and currently writing courses for Reformation Christian Ministries in Georgia.

He is the author of a number of books, including Danger in the Camp, An Analysis and Refutation of the Heresies of the Federal Vision, and today we are going to be addressing the theme Federal Vision Revisited by one of its published critics, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after many years to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor John M. Otis.

Greetings, Brother Chris. It's always wonderful to be on your program.

Yes, and we go a long way back, Brother, and in fact, I can vividly remember that our interview on the Freemasons, where you wrote, from what I understand, at least at the time, was the most lengthy refutation of Freemasonry from a conservative evangelical Christian point of view that was ever published, and by conducting that interview on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a listener in Dublin, Ireland, invited you out to London, England, to participate in a debate with.

A high-level Mason. That is correct. Your program led the way to that debate in London back in 2008.

Yes, and I did see that debate. Quite fascinating. Your opponent was a Swedenborgianist, which is quite a strange cult, but another thing that I will never forget, and I will always forever remain in your debt, was the precious memory of you and your lovely wife, Christine, making the long drive from Burlington, North Carolina, to Boone, North Carolina, to be present at my graduation from Hebron Colony Ministries, which is a Christian drug and alcohol rehabilitation ministry in Boone, North Carolina, and I was a resident there after sadly going back or returning to the sin of drunkenness for a period of my life, and I was so delighted to have you and your wife.

In the audience there. I was very honored by that. It was a great privilege to be there, Chris. We love you, and we wanted to be there. The Lord is using you once again. It's just wonderful. We pray for you that Iron Sharp Iron will reach thousands of people worldwide.

I appreciate it. Well, actually, apparently it already does. As according to the Leading Edge Radio Network, there are 10 ,000 people a week listening to the live streaming, approximately, and according to my webmaster, there are approximately 3 ,000 people a week downloading the mp3s off of the website, so we thank God for that.

Well, first of all, I think it would be in order for you, even though we had Doug Wilson last Friday do this. Doug Wilson, as many of our listeners will recognize, is the pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, and was one of the initial pastors at the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church in Monroe, Louisiana, who was invited there to speak at the very first Federal Vision Conference, which launched this movement, and Doug Wilson has made public declarations, not only in print, but as a guest in my program, to declare that he no longer identifies himself as being associated with that movement, and one of the reasons we are continuing to discuss this is that there are still some open questions about this issue, and even though Doug explained what Federal Vision is, I think it would be warranted that we once again have you define it, and then pick up from there as to why you even wanted.

To conduct this program with me today. Okay, it's hard to believe, Chris, that it's been 16 long years, and it was at that conference, there were some people in my denomination, the RPCUS, heard those tapes and things, us ministers, we listened to that, we had that conference transcribed, and therefore, once we listened, and we considered friends, and I had known several of them for several years, we were compelled to defend Orthodox, historic, Biblical, Reformed Christianity, and in 2002, we issued our call to repentance, asking these men to turn from what we believed to be views that attacked the glorious gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I listened to the program with Doug Wilson, I will say this, recently, some of our ministers, we were discussing this, because someone said that Doug Wilson had an article, better read that article, I must say, reading the article, I did not find helpful, in terms of, said to some others that I need to hear him and others answer specific questions as to whether I would say they are turning from the federal vision.

I was, as your guest Dewey Roberts indicated, I saw some parts of the nature of the justification of Christ's righteousness to believers, so there were some encouraging signs there, crucial questions remaining that need to be asked of him and others, and when you ask him in the federal vision how he's justified in Jesus, and he seemed to indicate he didn't know anyone, precisely the area that I'm most concerned, Roberts is concerned about, and others, because Doug Wilson, the problem is, is how do we stand?

The problem that, after about a year or two, once they studied these men, looked at the Auburn Avenue Conference, there was a conference, I believe, in Fort Lauderdale, and they found out that one of the problems was a question of justification and sanctification, and that when they used the verbiage, the obedience of, are clearly saying, and I've got some quotes here today I want to give, what they were saying about justification by faith is that, in the obedience of faith, is that they were wanting to say that our justification included good works, lies the problem, and that is where they have blurred the distinction between justification and sanctification, and they don't understand how justification and good works properly relate to one another and how they're joined.

Essentially, that's why in my book, Danger in the Camp, I refer to these men as modern-day Judaizers. The Apostle Paul in Galatians 1 says, those that preach another gospel have distorted it and are preaching another gospel, and he was referencing the Judaizers, and the Judaizers were those who said believing in Jesus is fine, but they needed to submit to the law of Moses, particularly circumcision.

The result, the decision that Paul and Barnabas had with these men in the church of Antioch of Syria, they could not settle it, and that's what precipitated the Council of Jerusalem that we see in Acts chapter 15.

So the vision is that justification, particularly, that they were essentially Roman Catholic, and that if you picked out the essential tenets of the Council of Trent, Rome's reputation to the Protestant Reformation, that they were identical in what they said and what Rome was saying.

Therefore, they are basically Judaizers. Norman Shepard, particularly, and I think he was one of the main leaders of the federal vision, because as Doug Wilson said, he was originally invited to the Auburn Avenue Conference in 2002, but I believe that there was a great sickness with his wife, and that's what prohibited him from coming, and John Barrett was a replacement.

But it was Norman Shepard who wrote this book called Call of Grace, many of the distinctions of the federal vision. There's nothing greatly clear in what he... Now, do you think that some.

Of this problem may lie in a blurring of the distinction between the Old and New Covenant, because there were requirements in the temporal earthly covenant that God had with Israel that did involve obedience, but this was not salvific, and the New Covenant is a new and better covenant which actually involves our salvation and Christ standing as our mediator.

Right. One of the things that was problematic with me of several of the men in the federal vision camp, one of them said that the law is the gospel, and the gospel is the law, and that law keepers act equivalent, and I have to adamantly say no, no, a thousand times no.

Distinction, and Chris, let me just read, for example, these men say they adhere to the Westminster Confession, and I just wanted to read a very brief point out of chapter 7 of the Westminster Confession on God's covenant with man, section 5 confession.

This covenant in the time of the law and in the time of the gospel, under the law, it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types of ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all for signifying Christ to come, which were for that time sufficient and efficacious through the operation of the spirit to instruct and build up Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins and eternal salvation, and it's also in that regard, what the confession there says is that in the old covenant it was referred to as the law, and the new testament referred to as the law.

Martin Luther talks real problems with it, that Luther brought out unbiblical. Well, no, it's not unbiblical. Their view and the gospel are the same. That is what's unbiblical, and Chris, the importance in this is the play in our justification, if any.

What role does the law of God play in our sanctification? These are very important, and you have to get those right. If you don't get them right, you can fall into the camp of the Judaizers, which in my opinion and others, the term heresy really is a Greek word, heretikos, and it simply meant, so you can look in the new testament how that word is used, and it can be translated with a damnable heresy.

If you really believe that in your heart, you can't be a Christian. Now, I thought that was an interesting comment on the program. Let me just say this. I could never forget, do you know who Dr. Borton Smith was, Chris?

I do not know him well, but I've heard of him. He was a systematic theology teacher at Reformed Seminary. He was my systematics professor. He started great work at the PCA for many years in his early 90s here just this year.

The thing that I remember out of Dr. Smith's systematic theology course, somebody one day said, Dr. Smith, can a Roman Catholic be a Christian? His response has stayed with me over 40 years almost. Dr. Smith says, it is possible to be in the Roman Catholic Church and be saved.

You really believe in Roman doctrine? No, you cannot be saved. So there are some people that could be in the church, they don't know better, they don't know the fine distinctions, who are really trusting in Jesus alone.

But if you really believe that your works have something to do with it, and that it's my good works that are going to make it into heaven, then now I've got a problem. Yeah, my mother, who was dying of.

Pancreatic cancer back in 1995, she was Roman Catholic and on her deathbed, and I'm not just talking about something that very quickly happened, this was a process of six weeks, where she was day after day after day reaffirming her trust in the true gospel of the scriptures.

She told me emphatically that she was going to heaven solely based on the death of Christ on her behalf. She renounced prayer to Mary and the saints, something that she had been superstitiously involved in for decades, for most of her life from childhood.

And she saw Christ truly as her only hope of salvation. I have no doubt that she is in heaven right now. Now, she never formally left the Roman Catholic Church, she never said to me, I denounce the Roman Catholic Church, I am no longer a Roman Catholic, she never said anything like that, she never joined a Protestant church, she was never re-baptized, and nothing like that.

But I have no doubt that she, who from her last conscious thought on earth, may have viewed herself as a Roman Catholic, she was certainly trusting in the finished work of Christ on.

Calvary alone for her salvation. Yes, I mean, I think there are those out there that are like that, Chris. Let me just say this, one of the problems I have in answer, somebody asked me, they said, Pastor Otis, if Norman Shepherd were to call you up and ask you out for dinner, would you go?

And my response is, and then he says, what would you say to him? And I said, well, sure, I'd go, and if I was talking with him, I would say this, I would say, Dr. Shepherd, I know what you've written, I've read your books, I've read what you have said.

Please tell me, I beg you, and that's what I would say to him.

The Visible and Invisible Church in Reformed Theology

Now, the main issues that even were the catalyst behind this movement becoming a movement seem to be the objectivity of the covenant, that the covenant is not invisible. This is including the New Covenant, it's something that, as Doug Wilson said, you could take a picture of somebody entering into it.

And also, most, but not all, believe in paedo-communion, and the issue of the role of works in one's salvation. These seems to be the three main issues, probably with paedo-communion being a third or fourth level of importance, because as I said, as far as I know, my friend Steve Schlissel, at least the last time I spoke to him about it, a number of years ago, even though this was long after the Federal Vision Movement began, he was not a practitioner of or a believer in paedo-communion.

So he was set apart from them in that respect. But the issue of the covenant, the objectivity of the covenant, I am a Reformed Baptist, and most paedo-Baptists, most Presbyterians that I know, with some exception, and one of those exceptions was Dr. David Engelsma, who I interviewed on this, was also very opposed to the Federal Vision Movement.

He actually agreed with the Reformed Baptist understanding, if I heard him correctly, that the only people who are truly in the new covenant are those who are truly regenerate. Even though you may have people joining a Baptist church, being baptized in a Baptist church, being even appointed to offices like elder and deacon, if they prove themselves to be false converts later, they would be excommunicated if they were unrepentant, and we would not view them as ever having been truly a part of the covenant with Christ mediating on their behalf.

Now, I have met Presbyterians, even those who are opposed to the Federal Vision, who disagree with that, and I cannot help but wonder if some of the confusion lies within a misunderstanding of who is truly in Christ's covenant.

If you could explain your personal opinion on this, and how it would differ from a Federal Visionist's understanding.

Okay, I'd be glad to. What you said, where you personally, only the, what the Federal Vision, well let me back up and say this, one of the great chapters in the Westminster Confession to do on the nature of the church.

Historic Reformed Christianity has affirmed what we refer to as the visible and the invisible church. Now, what they mean by the confession of faith does a marvelous job of setting forth that what is meant by the visible church is all those who profess the Lord Jesus Christ and their children, okay, are members of the visible church.

The invisible church are those who are truly regenerated. So what we can say to be in the visible church, and yet not be part of the invisible church, meaning you could be of the covenant, or you could be in the covenant, but not of the covenant.

I have another play, the best place in scripture, Chris, is Romans chapter 9, where Paul says there are those in the covenant, and let me just, if I may, let me just turn to Romans 9 here. Let me get my Bible.

Nature of the covenant now, and Paul in Romans chapter 9. While you're looking for it, I'm going.

To announce our email address if anybody would like to go right ahead. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for John Otis, and I would actually especially love to hear from people who disagree with him.

I'm not going to exclude those who agree, I'm just saying that I would love to hear especially from people who disagree. I would love to hear from federal visionists with questions, but anybody who has a question on this issue, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com, and please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal.

And private matter. So go ahead, John. Okay, Romans chapter 9, and we'll pick up at verse 3. Paul says, For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ, for my kinsmen according are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption of sons, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the temple service, and the promises.

Whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever, amen. But it is not as though the word of God is failed, for they are not all Israel, who are descended from Israel.

Neither are they all children, because they are Abraham's descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Now, what Paul says there, in the covenant, you have those who are descendants of Abraham in the flesh. He says, but that doesn't mean that they are the children of Abraham by promise. Only those who are descendants of Abraham by promise receive the promises of eternal life.

And then it goes on in that great chapter 9 on election, and who are the examples that Paul gives to prove that point there about the covenant? Esau and Jacob. Both were in the covenant. Both were circumcised.

If you looked at both, you would say, we don't see any difference. Jacob I've loved, Esau I've hated. And we know that later on, Esau, what Esau does is proves himself never had to have been regenerated.

Proves himself to have despised, that's how Jacob stole the text, that the confession of faith uses to dispense within the covenant all those who make profession of faith in all their children. But the invisible church are all those who by faith have trusted in Jesus.

As Lord and Savior. Now look, can you pick up where we left off because we have to go to our first break right now. Okay. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Tired of box store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news.

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word. And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you.

Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Useful and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co-host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family-owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith-insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com.

That's CVBBS .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard.

About them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. And you can also call CVBBS .com at their toll-free number, and this is a number that is typically manned between 10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. Monday through Friday.

So if nobody answers, just call the next day. But the phone number is 800 -656 -0231. 800 -656 -0231. And they are offering a 10 discount even on top of other discounts. No matter how much an item has been discounted, whether it's half price, whether it's 75 off, whatever it is, you'll get an additional 10 off if you either mention verbally the coupon code IRON, I-R-O-N, or if you type it in, if you're ordering at CVBBS .com on the internet.

So just remember that coupon code IRON, and if you order $50 or more worth of books, DVDs, CDs, and other material, you will get absolutely free of charge a John MacArthur's book on forgiveness published by Crossway, which is a $20 value retail price.

You'll get that absolutely free of charge if you order at least $50 worth of merchandise from CVBBS .com. Please make sure you tell Todd and Patty Jennings that you heard about CVBBS .com from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And if you aren't calling them, you can type that in when you're placing your internet order by clicking on the instructions option, and then you could actually type in that you heard about them from Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And of course, if you use the IRON coupon code, that will automatically let them know that you heard about them from us. We are back with our discussion on The Federal Vision Revisited by one of its published critics.

Our guest today is John M. Otis, and he is an author, and a number of books that he has written includes Danger in the Camp, An Analysis and Refutation of the Heresies of the Federal Vision. And by the way, I also want to let our listeners know that this Thursday, God willing, February 1st, Dewey Roberts, Dr. Dewey Roberts is returning to Iron Sharpen's Iron for two hours.

He was on for the last half hour of last Friday's program following Doug Wilson's 90-minute interview. Dr. Roberts was on for the remaining 30 minutes last week to discuss Historic Christianity and The Federal Vision, A Theological Analysis and Practical Evaluation.

He will be on this Thursday for two hours for a fuller treatment on his book. And we are also working on a debate between my guest today, John Otis, and my friend going back to the 1980s, Pastor Steve Schlissel, even though I disagree with him strongly on theology these days, I still consider him to be a friend and I love him and would love to see us come to theological agreement one day, especially on the important things.

And so I'm awaiting Steve's reply. He actually contacted me a year ago, approximately, asking me if he could have another shot at debating John Otis, my guest today. They had debated on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio a number of years ago and it was a rushed debate.

It was a quicker debate than we had planned because of traffic preventing Steve from getting into the Long Island, New York studio at that time. But we can have them both on the phone next time around.

I know that John definitely wants to do it and I'm hoping that Steve replies with an acceptance of my invitation that he actually initiated. So keep your eyes and ears open for more details on that debate.

And before the break, John, we were talking about the differences between the Invisible Church and the Visible Church. And much to the disappointment of my landmark Baptist friends, I do believe in such a thing as an Invisible Church, as do all Reform Baptists that I'm aware of.

But where we disagree with many of our Pado-Baptist friends and brothers is over the Covenant, because we do take a different view typically and do not view an Invisible and Visible Church in the same way that our Pado-Baptist friends would view an Invisible and Visible Covenant that were both real.

In other words, we would believe that Christ is only mediating for his elect, for those who are regenerate, for those who are certainly going to heaven. Otherwise, his mediation would have failed. In fact, before I even take your reply to that, I don't want to steal too much thunder from our listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia, who is basically asking about the same thing.

He says, Dear Brother Chris, I'm so happy to hear you well and back on point for the doctrinal integrity of God's people. In reading on this topic, I read that what distinguishes the Federal Vision from other interpretations of Covenant theology is its view of the nature of the Covenant, namely that the Covenant is objective, and that all Covenant members are part of God's family, whether or not they are decreedly elect.

Is this correct? If so, what does this mean? Could you please explain it further? And thank you both for guarding the Gospel once for all delivered to the saints.

So if you could respond, John. Yes, I was saying in chapter 9 was the Apostle makes that distinction, and which expressions make that distinction. It is possible to believe in the Covenant, but not of the Covenant.

And yes, the work of the Lord Jesus Christ applies only to his elect, which is the Invisible Church. Now, what the Federal Vision men have said is when they refer to the objectivity, particularly it was Steve Wilkins, he has probably written the most on this distinction between the two.

And he says all those in the Invisible Church, all those who are baptized, have received all of the saving graces of the Lord Jesus Christ, to which I would say, and Reformed theology would say, no, that is not accurate.

Just because you have been baptized, doesn't mean you are a recipient. Just like Esau was circumcised, but he was uncircumcised, the promises the Lord Jesus mediated his sins. So that, for example, the analogy that Doug, could you take a picture of a Christian?

Let's say they had cameras back in the day of Jacob and Esau. You take a picture there, could you tell Esau was not one of the elect from Jacob? No. Actually, if you look at the story on the surface, Jacob reveals himself as more of a rascal than Esau, because he deceived his brother.

But the promises will go to Jacob, and God, of course, will work in the heart of Jacob. So by the objective covenant, the Federal Visionists believe, because you are baptized, and that's why every single one of them, I haven't found an exception yet, believe in baptismal regeneration.

Meaning that at your water baptism, just like a Roman Catholic, you have the saving graces, you have complete forgiveness. What do we mean by the objective covenant? That is why we say we must reject that, and that blurs the true distinction of the covenant.

So that's what the Federal Visionists mean by objective covenant. Because you are baptized, you are in the covenant. I know, I think it's Steve Schlissel who said, it's wrong for me to sit in a church and look across the aisle, and if there's a man who's not living for Jesus, no matter what it's like, for me to question him is wrong for me to question that.

Because he's in the church, he's baptized. And so they really blur the decrees of God, they blur that. Now, what makes this more confusing, what you just said, is that,.

As you heard, Doug Wilson said one of the primary reasons he left, or disassociated himself with the identity of being a Federal Visionist, is, one of the primary reasons, is the denial that there is such a thing as regeneration, that two of the leading figures, at least two of the leading figures, James Jordan and Peter Lightheart, seem to both, according to Doug, deny that there is such a thing as regeneration.

So how could they believe in baptismal regeneration?

Yeah, well, Dr. D. Roberts mentioned that, I don't know, I haven't read his book yet, I'm looking forward to it. I'm just quoting what these, in my book I don't deal with Jim Jordan, I didn't deal with Peter Lightheart either.

I dealt specifically, so I was discussing, Norman Shepard was not part, in years past, to speak on justification at his church in Moscow, Idaho. So I deal with Rich Lask in my book, one's baptism.

And the other reason that Doug gave for his declaration that he is no longer associated with the identity of a Federal Visionist, is the ambiguity and confusing language that is being produced from the primary movers and shakers in the movement, that leave people scratching their heads.

And in Doug's point of view, now I know that you are wondering about this, that you're kind of baffled as to how Doug can have this point of view towards these folks, but in Doug's point of view, they are miscommunicating the idea that they believe that works cooperate meritoriously in our achieving justification before God, and that they're miscommunicating the idea that they believe in baptismal regeneration.

In your opinion, they actually do believe in these things, if you could comment on.

That. Yes, it was, I know for the longest time, people kept saying to us, in my particular domination, because we led the way in challenging the Federal Vision, they said, you've overreacted. People said, you don't really understand.

Now, after much reading of these men, listening to their tapes, and reading their books, no, we have not misunderstood them. Chris, I've always said this as a preacher, if there is a lack of clarity, the first person that I point my finger at is myself.

If people are confused, then I have failed as a primary purposes of a gospel preacher is to be clear in what he preaches, clearly setting forth the teaching of Scripture. And therefore, I will always look to myself if people are wondering.

And so I've always said, and those in the Federal Vision says, you don't understand us. Yes, we do understand you. And you, it's your language, it's your ambiguity, it's your failure, it's your using our same words, but giving different definitions to them.

The Federal Vision's Denial of Perfect Obedience and Its View of Good Works

That's the problem. That's what creates confusion among the saints in the pew. So now, what was the last.

Part of your question? My question was basically, and I'll re-ask it, and perhaps it's a different emphasis. Do you believe that there is a possibility that the movers and shakers of Federal Vision are inarticulate?

Not that they're stupid, or not that they don't have a very wide vocabulary and proper grammar, but that they are conveying something that they do not intend to convey? Do you believe that there's a possibility?

Or do you believe that these individuals, and of course, we don't want to broad brush either, because there seems to be differences among some of the folks that at least say that they are part of this movement.

But the primary ones that you are addressing, do you think that they actually have denounced the gospel that they apparently once affirmed as Reformed pastors, that we are justified by faith alone before God?

And perhaps you could even define exactly what that means, because the scriptures do use justification, do use the word justification in different ways as reference to.

Being justified before men and so on. But if you could answer that question. Okay. No, I do not believe these men have miscommunicated, as I want to give you some quotes here in a moment. I think it's quite clear.

And when you look at their writings, now let me preface everything by saying I want to set forth what I believe to be the biblical view of the relationship of the law, scripture says, is the nature of justification in its role with good works.

So having said that, I want to into the confession of faith in chapter 19 of the law of God. And here's what it says in section one. It says, God gave to Adam a law. He bound him in all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling and threatened death upon the breach of it, and in doing with the power and ability to keep it.

This law after the rule of righteousness was delivered up in commandments. Personal, perfect, the section of the law of God. Let me read one other thing in section six. It says this in the confession of faith.

Although true believers be not under the law as the covenant works to be thereby justified or condemned, yet is it of great use to them as well as to others in that as a rule of life, informing them of the rule of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly, discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives, examining themselves, thereby they may come to further conviction or humiliation for and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience.

Now in that, let me just read a larger catechism, is what rules are to be admitted?

And in fact, we got to pick up right where you left off there because we have to go to our midway break now. Okay. And if anybody wants to join us, please send in your emails. We do have some of you waiting patiently, and we will get to as many of you as we can, but if you'd like to join them and get in line, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

This is a longer break than normal because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires a long break between our two hours, so please be patient with us. God willing, we'll be right back with John Otis and more of our discussion on the federal vision right after these messages from our sponsors.