January 30, 2018 Show with John Otis on “The Federal Vision Revisited by One of Its Published Critics”

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30th day of January, 2017, and I'm so delighted to have an old friend back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio after a very long absence, my dear friend

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Pastor John Marshall Otis. Pastor John was an ordained minister by Westminster Presbytery of the

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Presbyterian Church in America, having served as a campus pastor at East Tennessee State University, pastor of Coburn Presbyterian Church in Coburn, Virginia, ruling elder at Calcedon Presbyterian Church in the

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RPCUS, Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States, in Cumming, Georgia, pastor of Westminster Presbyterian Church RPCUS in Corpus Christi, Texas, pastor of Covenant Reform Presbyterian Church RPCUS in Burlington, North Carolina, and currently writing courses for Reformation Christian Ministries in Georgia.

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He is the author of a number of books, including Danger in the Camp, An Analysis and Refutation of the

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Heresies of the Federal Vision, and today we are going to be addressing the theme, Federal Vision Revisited, by one of its published critics, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after many years to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor John M.

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Otis. Greetings, Brother Chris. It's always wonderful to be on your program.

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Yes, and we go a long way back, Brother, and in fact,

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I can vividly remember that our interview on the Freemasons, where you wrote, from what

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I understand, at least at the time, was the most lengthy refutation of Freemasonry from a conservative evangelical

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Christian point of view that was ever published, and by conducting that interview on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a listener in Dublin, Ireland, invited you out to London, England, to participate in a debate with a high -level

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Mason. That is correct. Your program led the way to that debate in London back in 2008.

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Yes, and I did see that debate, quite fascinating. Your opponent was a

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Swedenborgianist, which is quite a strange cult, but another thing that I will never forget, and I will always forever remain in your debt, was the precious memory of you and your lovely wife,

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Christine, making the long drive from Burlington, North Carolina, to Boone, North Carolina, to be present at my graduation from Hebron Colony Ministries, which is a

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Christian drug and alcohol rehabilitation ministry in Boone, North Carolina, and I was a resident there after sadly going back or returning to the sin of drunkenness for a period of my life, and I was so delighted to have you and your wife in the audience there.

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I was very honored by that. It was a great privilege to be there. Chris, we love you, and we wanted to be there, and it's great to see how the

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Lord is using you once again. It's just wonderful. We pray for you that Iron Sharp will reach thousands of people worldwide.

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Well, first of all, I think it would be in order for you, even though we had Doug Wilson last

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Friday do this. Doug Wilson, as many of our listeners will recognize, is the pastor of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, and was one of the initial pastors at the

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Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church in Monroe, Louisiana, who was invited there to speak at the very first Federal Vision Conference, which launched this movement, and Doug Wilson has made public declarations, not only in print but as a guest in my program, to declare that he no longer identifies himself as being associated with that movement, and one of the reasons we are continuing to discuss this is that there are still some open questions about this issue, and even though Doug explained what

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Federal Vision is, I think it would be warranted that we once again have you define it, and then pick up from there as to why you even wanted to conduct this program with me today.

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Okay, it's hard to believe, Chris, that it's been 16 long years when the

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Auburn Avenue, 2002 Auburn Avenue Conference was held, and it was at that conference there were some people in my denomination, the

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RPCUS, heard those tapes and then said, there are some disturbing things about that, so we, us ministers, we listened to that, we had that conference transcribed, and therefore once we listened and read what these men were saying, and several of which we considered friends, and I had known several of them for several years, we were compelled to defend

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Orthodox, historic, Biblical, Reformed Christianity, and in 2002 we issued our call to repentance, asking these men to turn from what we believed to be views that attacked the glorious gospel of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. I listened to the program with Doug Wilson, I will say this, recently some of our ministers, we were discussing this because someone said that Doug Wilson had written an article,

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Federal Vision Nomos, that he was distancing himself, so I was eager to read that article,

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I must say reading the article I did not find that helpful in terms of specifics, and I said to some others that I need to hear him and others answer specific questions as to whether I would say they are turning from the

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Federal Vision. I can say this, as your guest Dewey Roberts indicated,

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I saw some positive things that Doug Wilson said with reference to the nature of justification by faith alone and not by works, and about the imputation of Christ's righteousness to believers, so there were some encouraging signs there,

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I think there are some crucial questions remaining that need to be asked of him and others, it was a little disconcerting

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I think when you asked him was there anybody in the

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Federal Vision camp that denies justification by faith alone in Jesus, and he seemed to indicate he didn't know anyone, but that's precisely the area that I'm most concerned about,

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I think Dr. Roberts is concerned about and others, that as Doug Wilson said on his interview with you that the

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Federal Vision is a particular view of the covenant, and the problem is how do we stand in relationship to a holy

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God, the problem that I have had with the

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Federal Vision and others, and really most of the reformed world, after about a year or two once they studied these men, looked at the

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Auburn Avenue conference, there was a conference

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I believe in Fort Lauderdale where a lot of certain men participated and they found out then that there was a real problem, and that one of the problems was that they were blurring the distinction between the great doctrine of justification and sanctification, and that when they used the verbiage the obedience of faith, what they were saying, what several of the men are clearly saying, and I've got some quotes here today

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I want to give to the listening audience, that what they were saying about justification by faith is that in the obedience of faith, is that they were wanting to say that our justification included good works, and then lies the problem, and that is where they have blurred the distinction between justification and sanctification, and they don't understand how justification and good works properly relate to one another and how they're joined, and essentially that's why in my book

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Danger in the Camp I refer to these men as modern day Judaizers, the apostle Paul in Galatians 1 says those that preach another gospel have distorted it and are preaching another gospel, and he was referencing the

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Judaizers, and the Judaizers were those who said believing in Jesus is fine, but they needed to submit to the law of Moses, particularly circumcision, and as a result there was a great decision that Paul and Barnabas had with these men in the church of Antioch of Syria, they could not settle it, and that's what precipitated the council of Jerusalem that we see in Acts chapter 15, and so really my problem with the federal vision is that in the doctrine of justification particularly, that they were essentially

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Roman Catholic, and that if you picked out the essential tenets of the

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Council of Trent, Rome's reputation to the Protestant Reformation, that they were identical in what they said and what

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Rome was saying, and therefore they are basically

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Judaizers, and that Norman Shepard particularly, and I think he was one of the main leaders of the federal vision, and as Doug Wilson said he was originally invited to the

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Auburn Avenue Conference in 2002, but I believe that there was a great sickness with his wife, and that's what prohibited him from coming, and John Barrett was a replacement, but it was

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Norman Shepard who wrote this book called Call of Grace, which sets forth many of the distinctions of the federal vision, and I've looked at that book very closely, and there's nothing gracious about that, but Norman Shepard was very clear in what he said that the covenant and justification includes obedience.

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Now do you think that some of this problem may lie in a blurring of the distinction between the

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Old and New Covenant, because there were requirements in the temporal earthly covenant that God had with Israel that did involve obedience, but this was not salvific, and the

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New Covenant is a new and better covenant, which actually involves our salvation and Christ standing as our mediator.

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Right, one of the things that was problematic with me of several of the men in the federal vision camp, one of them said that the law is the gospel, and the gospel is the law, and that law keepers and believers are exact equivalent, and I have to adamantly say no, no, a thousand times no, and you must keep in distinction the law and the gospel, and Chris, let me just read, for example, these men say they adhere to the

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Westminster Confession, and I just wanted to read a very brief point out of chapter 7 of the

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Westminster Confession on God's covenant with man, and chapter 7, section 5 says this in the confession, this covenant was differently administered in the time of the law and in the time of the gospel.

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Under the law, it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types of ordinances delivered to the people, the

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Jews, all for signifying Christ to come, which were for that time sufficient and efficacious through the operation of the

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Spirit to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised

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Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins and eternal salvation, and it's called the

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Old Testament. Now, also in that regard, what the confession there says is that in the

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Old Covenant, it was referred to as the law, and the New Testament referred to as the gospel. Martin Luther talks about that separation.

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Several of the Federal Vision men said they had real problems with Luther. One of them in particular said that Luther stood on a broken lever in the

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Protestant Reformation, and said that this idea of a law -gospel distinction is flat out unbiblical.

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Well, no, it's not unbiblical. Their view of thinking that the law and the gospel are the same, that is what's unbiblical.

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And Chris, the importance in this is this. How are we justified before a holy

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God? What role does the law of God play in our justification, if any?

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What role does the law of God play in our sanctification? These are fairly important, and you have to get those right.

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If you don't get them right, you can fall into the camp of the

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Judaizers, which, in my opinion and others, is a damnable heresy.

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Now, the term heresy really is a Greek word, heretikos, and it simply meant faction.

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So, you can look in the New Testament how that word is used, and it can be translated where there were factions, and the

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King James says there were heresies. Now, one thing is heresies do divide, so that makes sense.

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But Peter refers to certain heresies as damnable heresies, meaning if you really believe that in your heart, you can't be a

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Christian. Now, I thought that was an interesting comment on the program with Doug Wilson Friday about a

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Roman Catholic, and let me just say this. I agreed with what he said about certain

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Roman Catholics. I could never forget—do you know who

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Dr. Borton Smith was, Chris? I do not know him well, but I've heard of him. He was a systematic theology teacher,

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Reformed Seminary. He was my systematics professor. He started Greenville Theological Seminary. He was the stated clerk of the

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PCA for many years. He recently went to be with the Lord at the age of 94, somewhere in his early 90s here just this year.

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The thing that I remember out of Dr. Smith's systematic theology course, somebody one day said,

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Dr. Smith, can a Roman Catholic be a Christian? And his response has stayed with me over 40 years almost.

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Dr. Smith says, It is possible to be in the Roman Catholic Church and be saved.

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However, here is his caveat, if in your heart you really believe in Roman doctrine, no, you cannot be saved.

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So there are some people that could be in the

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Church, they don't know better, they don't know the fine distinctions, who are really trusting in Jesus alone.

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But if you really believe that your works have something to do with it, and that it's my good works that are going to make it, or help me to make it into heaven, then now

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I've got a problem. Yeah, my mother, who was dying of pancreatic cancer back in 1995, she was

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Roman Catholic, and on her deathbed, and I'm not just talking about something that very quickly happened, this was a process of six weeks, where she was day after day after day, reaffirming her trust in the true gospel of the scriptures.

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She told me, emphatically, that she was going to heaven solely based on the death of Christ, on her behalf.

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She renounced prayer to Mary and the saints, something that she had been superstitiously involved in for decades, for most of her life, from childhood.

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And she saw Christ, truly, as her only hope of salvation.

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I have no doubt that she is in heaven right now. Now, she never formally left the

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Roman Catholic Church. She never said to me, I denounce the Roman Catholic Church, I am no longer a

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Roman Catholic. She never said anything like that. She never joined a Protestant church. She was never re -baptized, and nothing like that.

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But I have no doubt that she, who, from her last conscious thought on earth, may have viewed herself as a

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Roman Catholic, she was certainly trusting in the finished work of Christ on Calvary alone, for her salvation.

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Yes, I mean, I think there are those out there that are like that, Chris. Let me just say this.

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One of the problems I have, one of the Federal Vision adherents was Norman Shepard. As I said, he's sort of the grandfather in a certain sense.

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Some of the other men looked to him for leadership. I know some have. When I spoke in 2008 at a conference in Michigan on the topic of the

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Federal Vision, I gave a series of four lectures, and I referenced

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Norman Shepard in that. And in the question and answer, somebody asked me, they said,

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Pastor Otis, if Norman Shepard were to call you up and ask you out for dinner, would you go?

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And my response is, and then he says, what would you say to him? And I said, well, sure,

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I'd go. And if I was talking with him, I would say this. I would say,

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Dr. Shepard, I know what you've written. I've read your books. I've read other things that you have said on this subject.

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I have great difficulty with what you have said. Please tell me,

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I beg you in your heart that you do not believe in your heart what you have written.

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I said, that's what I would say to him. And so...

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Now, the main issues that even were the catalyst behind this movement becoming a movement seem to be the objectivity of the

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Covenant, that the Covenant is not invisible. This is including the New Covenant.

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It's something that, as Doug Wilson said, you could take a picture of somebody entering into it.

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And also, most, but not all, believe in paedo -communion and the issue of the role of works in one's salvation.

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These seem to be the three main issues, probably with paedo -communion being a third or fourth level of importance.

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Because, as I said, as far as I know, my friend Steve Schlissel, at least the last time

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I spoke to him about it, a number of years ago, even though this was long after the Federal Vision Movement began, he was not a practitioner of or a believer in paedo -communion.

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So he was set apart from them in that respect. But the issue of the

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Covenant, the objectivity of the Covenant... I am a Reformed Baptist, and most paedo -Baptists, most

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Presbyterians that I know, with some exception, and one of those exceptions was

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Dr. David Engelsma, who I interviewed on this, who was also very opposed to the Federal Vision Movement.

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He actually agreed with the Reformed Baptist understanding, if I heard him correctly, that the only people who are truly in the

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New Covenant are those who are truly regenerate. Even though you may have people joining a

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Baptist church, being baptized in a Baptist church, being even appointed to offices like Elder and Deacon, if they prove themselves to be false converts later, they would be excommunicated if they were unrepentant, and we would not view them as ever having been truly a part of the

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Covenant, with Christ mediating on their behalf. Now, I have met

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Presbyterians, even those who are opposed to the Federal Vision, who disagree with that, and I cannot help but wonder if some of the confusion lies within a misunderstanding of who is truly in Christ's Covenant.

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If you could explain your personal opinion on this, and how it would differ from a Federal Visionist's understanding.

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Okay, I'd be glad to. Chris, I would agree with what you said, and what you personally adhere to, that only the regenerate are going to be in Heaven with the

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Lord Jesus. Now, what the Federal Vision...

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Well, let me back up and say this. One of the great chapters in the Westminster Confession of Faith has to do on the nature of the

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Church. Historic Reformed Christianity has affirmed what we refer to as the

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Visible and the Invisible Church. Now, what they mean by, in the

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Confession of Faith, does a marvelous job of setting forth that difference.

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What is meant by the Visible Church is all those who profess the

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Lord Jesus Christ and their children, are members of the

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Visible Church. The Invisible Church are all those who are truly regenerated.

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So what we can say is that it is possible to be in the

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Visible Church and yet not be part of the Invisible Church.

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Meaning you could be of the Covenant, or you could be in the

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Covenant, but not of the Covenant. And the best place in Scripture, Chris, is

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Romans Chapter 9, where Paul says there are those in the

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Covenant. And let me just, if I may, let me just turn to Romans 9.

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Here, let me get my Bible. Because this is important on the nature of the Covenant now.

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And Paul, in Romans Chapter 9, says, here, let me get to it.

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While you're looking for it, I'm going to announce our email address. Okay, go right ahead. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for John Otis, and I would actually especially love to hear from people who disagree with him.

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I'm not going to exclude those who agree. I'm just saying that I would love to hear, especially from people who disagree.

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I would love to hear from federal visionists with questions. But anybody who has a question on this issue, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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And please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

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And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. So go ahead, John. Okay, Romans chapter 9, and we'll pick up at verse 3.

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Paul says, For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are

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Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption of sons, and the glory and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the temple service, and the promises.

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Whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all,

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God blessed forever, amen. But it is not as though the word of God is spelled, for they are not all

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Israel, who are descended from Israel, neither are they all children, because they are

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Abraham's descendants, but through Isaac your descendants will be named. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

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Now, what Paul says there is that in the covenant, you have those who are descendants of Abraham in the flesh.

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He says, but that doesn't mean that they are the children of Abraham by promise.

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And only those who are descendants of Abraham by promise receive the promises of eternal life.

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And then it goes on in that great chapter 9, on election, and who are the examples that Paul gives to prove that point there about the covenant?

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Esau and Jacob. Both were in the covenant, both were circumcised.

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If you looked at both, you would say, we don't see any difference. But then

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God says, Jacob I've loved, Esau I've hated. And we know that later on,

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Esau, what Esau does is proves himself never had to have been regenerated.

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Proves himself to have despised the blessing.

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And sold it for some soup to his brother. And that's how

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Jacob stole the blessing. So, it is important, and that's one of the texts that the confession of faith uses to distinguish what we call the visible church, all those who are in the covenant, all those who make profession of faith, and all their children.

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But the invisible church are all those who, by faith, have trusted in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

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Now look, can you pick up where we left off? Because we have to go to our first break right now. Okay. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is

30:50

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Don't go away,

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We are back with our discussion on The Federal Vision Revisited by one of its published critics.

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Our guest today is John M. Otis, and he is an author, and a number of books that he has written includes

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Danger in the Camp, An Analysis and Refutation of the Heresies of the Federal Vision. And by the way,

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I also want to let our listeners know that this Thursday, God willing, February 1st,

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Dewey Roberts, Dr. Dewey Roberts is returning to Iron Sharpen's Iron for two hours. He was on for the last half hour of last

37:15

Friday's program following Doug Wilson's 90 -minute interview. Dr.

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Roberts was on for the remaining 30 minutes last week to discuss historic Christianity and the

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Federal Vision, a theological analysis and practical evaluation. He will be on this

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Thursday for two hours for a fuller treatment on his book. And we are also working on a debate between my guest today,

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John Otis, and my friend, going back to the 1980s, Pastor Steve Schlissel.

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Even though I disagree with him strongly on theology these days, I still consider him to be a friend, and I love him, and would love to see us come to theological agreement one day, especially on the important things.

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And so I'm awaiting Steve's reply. He actually contacted me a year ago, approximately, asking me if he could have another shot at debating

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John Otis, my guest today. They had debated on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio a number of years ago, and it was a rushed debate.

38:27

It was a quicker debate than we had planned because of traffic preventing Steve from getting into the

38:33

Long Island, New York studio at that time. But we can have them both on the phone next time around if they...

38:40

I know that John definitely wants to do it, and I'm hoping that Steve replies with an acceptance of my invitation that he actually initiated.

38:51

So keep your eyes and ears open for more details on that debate. And before the break,

38:58

John, we were talking about the differences between the invisible church and the visible church.

39:04

And much to the disappointment of my landmark Baptist friends, I do believe in such a thing as an invisible church, as do all

39:14

Reformed Baptists that I'm aware of. But where we disagree with many of our Pato Baptist friends and brothers is over the covenant, because we do take a different view typically and do not view an invisible church in the same way that our

39:33

Pato Baptist friends would view an invisible and visible covenant that were both real.

39:40

In other words, we would believe that Christ is only mediating for his elect, for those who are regenerate, for those who are certainly going to heaven.

39:49

Otherwise, his mediation would have failed. And if you could just... In fact, before I even take your reply to that,

39:57

I don't want to steal too much thunder from our listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia, who is basically asking about the same thing.

40:05

He says, Dear Brother Chris, I'm so happy to hear you well and back on point for the doctrinal integrity of God's people.

40:12

In reading on this topic, I read that what distinguishes the federal vision from other interpretations of covenant theology is its view of the nature of the covenant, namely that the covenant is objective and that all covenant members are part of God's family, whether or not they are decreedly elect.

40:31

Is this correct? If so, what does this mean? Could you please explain it further? And thank you both for guarding the gospel once for all delivered to the saints.

40:41

So if you could respond, John. Yes, I was saying, the reason I read Romans chapter 9 was the apostle makes that distinction in the covenant, which is the basis why the

40:53

Westminster Confession and other Reformed expressions make that distinction.

41:01

So, it is possible to believe in the covenant, but not of the covenant. And yes, the work of the

41:08

Lord Jesus Christ applies only to His elect, which is the invisible church.

41:13

Now, what the federal vision men have said is when they refer to the objectivity of the covenant, is that, particularly it was

41:25

Steve Wilkins, he has probably written the most on this. In my opinion, he has completely blurred that distinction between the visible and invisible church.

41:40

And he says all those in the visible church, all those who are baptized, have received all of the saving graces of the

41:49

Lord Jesus Christ. To which I would say, and Reformed theology would say, no, that is not accurate.

42:00

Just because you have been baptized doesn't mean you are a recipient.

42:05

Just like Esau was circumcised but he was uncircumcised of heart, as it shows.

42:15

And therefore, the promises, there is no way that the

42:21

Lord Jesus mediated his sins. So that, for example, the analogy that Doug Wilson gave, could you take a picture of a

42:32

Christian. Let's say they had cameras back in the day of Jacob and Esau.

42:37

You take a picture there, could you tell Esau was not one of the elect from Jacob?

42:44

No. Actually, if you look at the story, on the surface,

42:50

Jacob reveals himself as more of a rascal than Esau because he deceived his brother.

42:57

But the promises will go to Jacob and God, of course, will work in the heart of Jacob.

43:06

So by the objective covenant, the federal vision is believed because you were baptized, and that's why every single one of them,

43:14

I haven't found an exception yet, believe in baptismal regeneration. Meaning that at your water baptism, just like a

43:23

Roman Catholic believes, that's what Rome teaches, you have the saving graces, you have complete forgiveness of sins.

43:32

That's what they mean by the objective covenant. That is why we say we must reject that, and that blurs the true distinction of the covenant.

43:44

So that's what the federal vision is made by objective covenant. Because you were baptized, you are in the covenant.

43:52

I know, I think it's, Steve Stinson said, it's wrong for me to sit in a church and look across the aisle, and if there's a man who's not living for Jesus, no matter what it's like, for me to question him is wrong for me to question that.

44:10

Because he's in the church. He's baptized. And so they really blur the decrees of God, they blur that distinction of the visible and invisible church that the

44:24

Bible makes. Now what makes this more confusing, what you just said, is that, as you heard,

44:32

Doug Wilson said one of the primary reasons he left or disassociated himself with the identity of being a federal visionist is, one of the primary reasons, is the denial that there is such a thing as regeneration, that two of the leading figures, at least two of the leading figures,

44:55

James Jordan and Peter Lightheart, seem to both, according to Doug, deny that there is such a thing as regeneration.

45:05

So how could they believe in baptismal regeneration? Yeah, well, that's a good point,

45:13

Chris, but in my book, and probably Dr. Dewey Roberts mentioned that,

45:19

I don't know, I haven't read his book yet, I'm looking forward to it, but I'm just quoting what these men have said.

45:29

Now, in my book, I don't deal with Jim Jordan, and I didn't deal with Peter Lightheart either.

45:37

I dealt specifically with those men who participated in the Auburn Avenue Pastors Conference.

45:44

So I was discussing Norman Shepard, though he wasn't there, I dealt with Doug Wilson, John Barich, and Steve Schlissel, and although Rich Lusk was not part of that Pastors Conference as such, he has studied under Steve Wilkins.

46:08

I know Doug Wilson has invited him in years past to speak on justification at his church in Moscow, Idaho, so I deal with Rich Lusk in my book.

46:19

But I can say this, the way

46:25

Wilkins and others speak, they speak of that regeneration and that forgiveness being at one's baptism.

46:33

So that's part of their view of the objectivity of the covenant, which I believe to be very problematic.

46:41

And the other reason that Doug gave for his declaration that he is no longer associated with the identity of a federal visionist is the ambiguity and confusing language that is being produced from the primary movers and shakers in the movement that leave people scratching their heads.

47:06

And in Doug's point of view, now I know that you are wondering about this, that you're kind of baffled as to how

47:14

Doug can have this point of view towards these folks, but in Doug's point of view, they are miscommunicating the idea that they believe that works cooperate meritoriously in our achieving justification before God and that they're miscommunicating the idea that they believe in baptismal regeneration.

47:39

In your opinion, they actually do believe in these things. If you could comment on that. Yes, I know for the longest time people kept saying to us, in my particular domination, because we led the way in challenging the federal vision, they said, you've overreacted.

47:57

People said, you don't really understand. Now after much reading of these men, listening to their tapes and reading their books, no, we have not misunderstood them.

48:10

Chris, I've always said this as a preacher, if there is a lack of clarity the first person that I point my finger at is myself.

48:21

If people are confused then I have failed as a communicator. One of the primary purposes of a gospel preacher is to be clear in what he preaches, clearly setting forth the teaching of Scripture.

48:40

And therefore, I will always look to myself if people are wondering. So I've always said, and those in the federal vision says, you don't understand us.

48:51

Yes, we do understand you. And it's your language, it's your ambiguity, it's your failure, it's your using our same words but giving different definitions to them.

49:07

That's the problem, that's what creates confusion among the saints in the pew.

49:16

So now, what was the last part of your question? My question was basically, and I'll re -ask it and perhaps add a different emphasis.

49:30

Do you believe that there is a possibility that the movers and shakers of federal vision are inarticulate?

49:39

Not that they're stupid or not that they don't have a very wide vocabulary and proper grammar, but that they are conveying something that they do not intend to convey.

49:51

Do you believe that there's a possibility or do you believe that these individuals, and of course, we don't want to broad brush either because there seems to be differences among some of the folks that at least say that they are part of this movement.

50:07

But the primary ones that you are addressing, do you think that they actually have denounced the gospel that they apparently once affirmed as reformed pastors that we are justified by faith alone before God?

50:25

And perhaps you could even define exactly what that means because the scriptures do use justification, do use the word justification in different ways as reference to being justified before men and so on.

50:37

But if you could answer that question. Okay. In terms of, no,

50:43

I do not believe these men have miscommunicated, as I'm going to give you some quotes here in a moment,

50:50

I think it's quite clear what they mean. And when you look at their writings, I think it's self -explanatory.

50:57

Now, let me preface everything by saying I want to set forth what I believe to be the biblical view of the relationship of the law in the gospel, and I want to set forth what the scripture says is the nature of justification in its role with good works.

51:16

So, having said that, I want to first turn into the

51:21

Confession of Faith in chapter 19 of the Law of God. And here's what it says in section 1.

51:29

It says, God gave to Adam a law as a covenant of works, by which he bound him in all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued with him power and ability to keep it.

51:55

This law, after the fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness. It was delivered up by God upon Mount Sinai in Ten Commandments.

52:06

Okay. So, it talks about the law as being personal, perfect, personal obedience.

52:16

Now, in the section of the Law of God, let me read one other thing. In section 6, it says this in the

52:24

Confession of Faith. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the rule of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly, discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves, thereby they may come to further conviction or humiliation for and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of His obedience.

53:09

Now, in that, let me just read out of the larger

53:16

Catechism. It says this. In question 99, the question is,

53:24

What rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the Ten Commandments? And in fact, we've got to pick up right where you left off there, because we have to go to our midway break now.

53:31

Okay. And if anybody wants to join us, please send in your emails. We do have some of you waiting patiently, and we will get to as many of you as we can, but if you'd like to join them and get in line, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

53:45

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. This is a longer break than normal, because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires a long break between our two hours, so please be patient with us.

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God willing, we'll be right back with John Otis and more of our discussion on the Federal Vision right after these messages from our sponsors.

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That's chefexclusive .com. Welcome back, this is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with about an hour to go, is my dear old friend of many years,

01:04:11

John M. Otis, and we are discussing the Federal Vision revisited by one of its published critics.

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That is also the email address for you to send questions to John Otis regarding the federal vision.

01:08:26

John Otis, who is author of the book Danger in the Camp, an analysis and refutation of the heresies of the federal vision.

01:08:36

And I also just want to let you know, John, that I just saw on the internet one of the individuals within the federal vision,

01:08:45

John Barack, and I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing his name, he was basically mocking what we are talking about today on the internet.

01:08:56

But if perhaps Mr. Barack was a lot clearer in what he had to say, we wouldn't be even needing to do this if indeed he is not teaching heresy.

01:09:06

But if you could pick up where you left off, it was on the Decalogue, I believe, correct? That is correct.

01:09:13

Let me just say, Chris, if there's any millionaires out there listening, just sit down in front of Chris and check their million dollars and forget about it.

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Would that help, brother? Yeah, and I would never bother my listeners again with any public pleas for donations, if that were the case.

01:09:33

Yes, we were talking about the Decalogue and about the relationship of the law of God to us as God's creatures.

01:09:44

And I was reading a larger catechism, question 99, what rules are to be observed for the right understanding of the

01:09:51

Ten Commandments? And part of the answer is this, that the law is perfect and binds everyone to full conformity in the whole man and to righteousness thereof and to entire obedience forever so as to require the utmost perfection of every duty and to forbid the least degree of every sin.

01:10:14

And one of the proof texts for that is James 2 .10, where it says, whoever keeps the whole law and yet offends at one point is guilty of all.

01:10:24

So in this regard, and then I want to go on and talk about the nature of justification and good works.

01:10:31

But with reference to the law of God, God is a holy God. Now this is the gospel now we're talking about.

01:10:36

And I've written a gospel, reformed gospel tract, and I talk about this. God is holy.

01:10:43

He expects perfection. And He expects 100 % perfection at all times without exception.

01:10:53

And that's what the confessional documents mention. You keep the whole law, offend at one point,

01:10:59

James says you've broken them all. I've always said what that means is if you're a student and you make a 99 or a 100 question test, you can pat yourself on the back, that's an

01:11:12

A+. Well, let me tell you something. I've preached on this numerous times. With reference to the law of God and sin, if you make it 99, you go to hell.

01:11:25

And I was talking to Dr. D. Roberts here recently about that. He said, John, let me give you my illustration.

01:11:31

I said, what's that? He says there's a military bomb squad. He says, listen, if you make it 99 in defusing bombs, you get blown up.

01:11:46

Even a 99 .999. That's right. You've got to get it right. So, God expects perfection.

01:11:56

The only people that go to heaven are perfect people. Now, let me qualify what we mean by that.

01:12:03

The issue is, am I going to try to provide that perfection myself by my own personal obedience, or can

01:12:13

I plead for a substitute? See, now that's the glory of the gospel. There's two things that are crucial to the gospel.

01:12:22

It's called the passive obedience of Christ and the active obedience. By the passive obedience, this is what is meant.

01:12:30

That because I have sinned, I deserve to die. The wages of sin is death, says

01:12:36

Romans 6. So, if I have sinned, I deserve to die.

01:12:44

And the penalty for that sin is eternal death. So, Jesus, as my substitute, that's how the

01:12:54

Bible talks about substitutionary atonement. God the Father says, I will allow a substitute, my son, who will pay the penalty in your place.

01:13:06

So, when Jesus hung on the cross, suffered the tortures of the cross, and the worst torture was the fact that he was abandoned by the

01:13:14

Father, God, Isaiah says, it pleased the Father to crush the son, because it took the

01:13:22

Father to completely abandon his son, and that's why Jesus yelled out, My God, my

01:13:28

God, why have you forsaken me? Because God the Father had to forsake his son in order for the son to be the sin bearer of all his people for all time.

01:13:40

That's the path of obedience. Now, the Federal Vision guys, they've never had a problem with that, but where they do have a problem is several of them have denied the act of obedience.

01:13:49

And by that, they say this, is that by the act of obedience,

01:13:56

Jesus kept the law perfectly for himself in order to be the sinless

01:14:01

Lamb of God, because how can a sinner atone for the sins if he's himself a sinner?

01:14:08

So, Jesus, the act of obedience means that. Well, no, that is not what the

01:14:15

Bible means by that. The act of obedience, and historic Reformed theology has said the act of obedience means

01:14:23

Jesus kept the law perfectly all his life.

01:14:28

He did not sin one time so that that righteousness of Jesus could be imputed to me and be credited to me as if I had done it myself so that on the day of judgment, the

01:14:45

Lord Jesus sees his own perfect law keeping and his death on my behalf, and I can be allowed to enjoy the joys of heaven forever.

01:14:57

The great exchange. Our sins imputed to him, and his righteousness imputed to us. Right. Now, having said that, let me mention what,

01:15:07

I'm just going to quote out of the Confession of Faith on Justification where the

01:15:13

Federal Vision guys get it mixed up. Quoting out of chapter 11 of the

01:15:18

Westman District Confession, it says this, chapter 11, section 1, those whom

01:15:26

God effectually calls, he also justifies, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins and accounting and accepting their persons as righteous, not for anything wrought in them or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone, not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them as their righteousness, but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on him and his righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.

01:16:13

Now, let's just stop right there. This is what the Bible refers to or what

01:16:19

Reformed Christianity has said, that is called forensic justification.

01:16:27

It is called an act of God. Justification, when I give a presbytery exam, we're examining men for the ministry, when we're talking about justification, we ask them, can you distinguish between the act of justification as a one -time act and sanctification?

01:16:51

Justification is an act of God. It's a one -time declaration, forensic act of God pardoning our sins, and we receive the work of Christ by faith of what

01:17:04

Jesus has done. And the alone there is very important. We receive it by faith alone.

01:17:13

There's nothing in that justification. There's no merit. There's nothing. I'm just being pardoned because Jesus has pardoned me.

01:17:24

Now, there is a difference in sanctification. Sanctification is called a work.

01:17:32

There's a lot of theology that often pivot around words, act and work, and there's a world of difference there.

01:17:42

Now, with reference to works, let me just go to the chapter on saving faith, chapter 14, of saving faith.

01:17:57

By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatever is revealed in the word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein, act differently upon that which particular passage thereof contains, yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, embracing the promises of the life to come.

01:18:18

But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life by virtue of the covenant of grace.

01:18:34

And then, let me just say in chapter 16 of good works, here's what it says.

01:18:44

Good works are only such as God has commanded in his holy word, and not such as without the warrant thereof, or devised by men out of blind zeal.

01:18:56

These good works done in obedience to God's commandments are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith, and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of their adversaries, and glorify

01:19:15

God, whose workmanship they are created in Christ Jesus, that having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end eternal life.

01:19:25

Their ability to do good works is not in all of themselves, but only of the Spirit of Christ. So, Chris, justification is an act of God whereby the work of Jesus, his passive and active obedience, is credited to me as if I had done it myself.

01:19:48

He dies for my sins and keeps the law perfectly in my place. Now, saving faith is that which is the fruits of having been justified.

01:20:06

I know you and Doug Wilson talked about, some about the analogy of the tree, and you brought up a good tree only bears good fruit, a bad tree only bears bad fruit.

01:20:16

You know them by their fruit. There is an inseparable union between justification and sanctification that a person who lives a reprobate life and dies in that should not have hope of eternal life because Hebrews 12, 14

01:20:40

I think says, without holiness no man will see God. And Jesus said in Matthew 7,

01:20:49

Not everyone who professes unto me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my

01:20:56

Father who is in heaven. There will be many on that day who will say, I've cast out demons,

01:21:02

I've done many marvelous things. And Jesus said, I never knew you. Depart from me, you lawless ones.

01:21:10

So Jesus says, and by the way, in John chapter 8, there were those that came to Jesus and said they were believers, and they believed in Jesus.

01:21:22

But then Jesus says, well, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.

01:21:29

But the Son has come to set men free, and if the

01:21:34

Son sets you free, you are free indeed. And these people who were said to be believers in one sense said, well, we've always been children of Abraham.

01:21:47

There we go back to that covenant. And you know what Jesus' response to them was?

01:21:52

Well, if that's the case, why are you trying to kill me? No, you're not a son of Abraham.

01:21:59

Your father is the devil. That was a pretty hard statement for Jesus to say. And he said that to those who in one sense believed in him, but then they didn't really believe in him.

01:22:11

So justification, there is no works at all, period, involved in justification.

01:22:19

The federal vision lies, every word of it said. They like to say the obedience of faith.

01:22:28

Now, and by what they mean is that works somehow play a part in justification.

01:22:35

Now, I'm going to read to you a quote from several quotes from Rich Luft, he studied under Steve Wilkins.

01:22:44

Doug Wilson, as I said, had him speak at Moscow on justification. Now, here's what

01:22:49

Rich Luft says. Remember we talked about how the Bible demands perfect obedience? And Jesus, by the way, when the young Rich Luft came,

01:22:58

Jesus said, what must I do to inherit eternal life? It is interesting, Jesus says, well, you know the commandments. And then the young man says, well,

01:23:07

I kept them all. Is there anything else? And it was masterful how Jesus worked there.

01:23:13

He said, yeah, there is one more thing. Go sell all that you possess, give it to the poor, and come follow me.

01:23:20

And the Bible says, because he was rich, he turned away and left.

01:23:26

And Jesus says, how hard it is for a rich man. It's easier for a camel to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a rich man.

01:23:34

And the disciples, they were just beside themselves. Well, who then can be saved? And Jesus says, well, with man it is impossible.

01:23:43

With God, all things are possible. What Jesus did with the young rich ruler was, he says, yeah, if you can keep the law perfectly, you'll make it.

01:23:53

But let me ask you something. Give up everything. So I've always preached on this. Where did

01:23:58

Jesus nail the guy on the first commandment? He didn't even get out of the matter's box.

01:24:05

He stumbled. Because his money was his God. Thou shalt have no other gods besides me.

01:24:11

What Jesus did was expose the fact that, no, he really didn't keep the law, even though he did.

01:24:18

And that's why it says Jesus had compassion on him. I believe later on that that man came to faith, but that's another issue.

01:24:29

So Jesus held him to account. Now, having said all of that, here's what

01:24:34

Rich Lusk said. And I'm quoting from an article that Rich Lusk wrote called,

01:24:41

Why the Law Gospel Paradigm is Flawed. Here's what Lusk said. He says,

01:24:46

Paul states just as emphatically as James that the doers of the law will be justified.

01:24:54

But who are these doers of the law? Is Paul speaking hypothetically of a class of sinless people who do not really exist?

01:25:00

Or does he have something in mind? Let's start by unpacking what it means to keep the law. The law simply did not require perfect obedience.

01:25:10

Let's stop right there. At that point, Rich Lusk, who took a vow to support the

01:25:15

Westminster Confession, just blatantly denied what the Westminster Confession says.

01:25:21

Because I read that to you earlier. He goes on to say, law keeping in this context is not a matter of scoring 100 % on an ethics test.

01:25:31

It's not even a matter of scoring 51%. It simply doesn't work that way.

01:25:36

Confirmity to the law was a matter of relationships, not something mechanical. If one sinned, one did not automatically become a lawbreaker, except in a highly technical sense.

01:25:50

And then he goes on to say, the law did not require perfect obedience. Moses was right.

01:25:57

The law was not hard to keep. It was a law of faith. Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law.

01:26:05

When read in covenant context, does not insist on 100 % obedience to be regarded as a law keeper.

01:26:12

It seems to me that this is an ongoing confusion between what was required of one to be a member of the nation of Israel in good standing and how one inherits eternal life.

01:26:24

There seems to be a blurring of the distinction here. Well, now, even in Israel, we've got to realize that when the whole sacrificial system, the purpose was for if I was in the old covenant,

01:26:41

I brought the sacrifice, and when I laid my hands on that, it was a symbol of me identifying myself with that sacrifice that I should die.

01:26:51

And the scripture makes clear, especially in Hebrews chapter 10, that the blood of bulls and goats can never atone for sin.

01:27:01

So, however, they all pointed towards the Lord Jesus at one time. And so, in that regard, now,

01:27:10

Lusk goes to say this. He says, justification cannot be referring to a demonstration of justification.

01:27:20

Justification does and cannot mean something like show to be justified. Rather, James has in view this same kind of justification as Paul forensic satiric justification.

01:27:35

Good works justify persons in James 2, not faith or one's status as a justified sinner.

01:27:43

And then he says, it seems that God will use fatherly justice in the final judgment, not absolute justice.

01:27:53

The standard, he says, will be, quote, the standard will be soft and generous because God is merciful.

01:28:00

These examples show the kind of soft evaluation God makes of his people.

01:28:06

And the illustration, Chris, that Rich Lusk gives, he says, this is the actual illustration he gives.

01:28:15

He says, let's take a newlywed couple. The wife, bless her heart, she wants to please her husband to fix him a wonderful meal and she burns it.

01:28:25

Now, a loving husband will say, honey, that's okay.

01:28:32

I know you tried hard. Rich Lusk used that example to say that is how

01:28:38

God is going to view us on the final day of judgment.

01:28:44

Why did Christ need to suffer an indescribable pain and agony, especially due to the wrath of his father upon him?

01:28:54

Why did he need to do that if that was really what forgiveness on the last day or in the judgment day is all about?

01:29:03

Exactly. You see, that's why we are so upset with the men of the

01:29:08

Federal Vision. That's why I call that it. I'd say to a man who really believes that, that's a damnable heresy.

01:29:16

If you think that God judges you that way, and I've said this, any pastor that publicly preaches that to his congregation,

01:29:24

I pity that congregation. And we have to go to our final break, and if you could, fill this last 25 minutes or so with quotes from Federal Visionists, that would be very helpful.

01:29:34

This is our last break. It will be a briefer break, and please send in your e -mails now if you intend to write them.

01:29:41

There are still a few of you waiting, and we'll get to you as soon as we can. But get in line right now if you intend to ask a question at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:29:49

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Don't go away.

01:29:54

We'll be right back with John Otis and more of our discussion on the Federal Vision.

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Pastor's Study. We are now back with the final 24 minutes or so of the program with Pastor John Otis and our examination of the

01:34:54

Federal Vision. And Pastor John, if you could continue with some more revealing quotes from those who identify with the

01:35:02

Federal Vision. Yeah, so we're talking about the relationship of works with justification.

01:35:10

That's the issue. For example, one proponent, it happens to be

01:35:17

Steve Schlissel, he says, quote, to keep the law as given by God is to believe

01:35:23

Moses is to believe Jesus. Law keepers are not hypothetical in Scripture. They really exist, and they are the exact equivalent to believers.

01:35:33

Nothing in the Bible teaches the kind of faith that does not obey. Obedience and faith are the same thing biblically speaking.

01:35:44

To submit to God's Word is what it means to believe. To believe is to obey.

01:35:51

Steve went on to quote the great Puritan John Owen. And here's how he quotes

01:35:59

Owen, but then I'm going to go on to say what he did not quote from Owen. Steve says,

01:36:05

John Owen's explicit statement, he says, we absolutely deny that we can be justified by that faith which can be alone, that is, without a principle of spiritual life and universal obedience.

01:36:18

Note what Owen is asserting. Obedience is not merely a test or evidence of saving faith.

01:36:26

It is inseparably bound up in its character. There is no disobedient yet saving faith.

01:36:33

It is not faith plus obedience, but the obedience of faith.

01:36:40

So at that point, so when they talk about the obedience of faith,

01:36:46

Steve just articulated what all the others have articulated, is that the faith that really saves me is bound up in keeping of the law.

01:37:01

Norman Shepherd says, the law was gracious in that God gave us the law and the act of grace was the fact that He gave us the law so that we could keep it, in terms of covenantal loyalty.

01:37:15

Now, it's interesting that Steve says obedience is not merely the evidence of saving faith.

01:37:27

It is its character that is exactly in opposition to what the scripture, what all the confessional reform confessions say.

01:37:42

Now, was that a part of the quote of John Owen, or was it an incomplete quote? He was quoting

01:37:50

Owen, but here's what Owen went on to say, and because Owen goes on to say this, here's what

01:38:06

Owen, if he had bothered to go on down, he would have found this with John Owen.

01:38:13

Owen says, although saving faith, as it is described in general, do not include obedience, not as its formal essence, but as the necessary effect is included in the cause and the fruit bearing juice.

01:38:33

So, and then he goes on to say, Owen says, with regard to works, he says that the consideration of them which are performed before believing is excluded by all from any causality or interest in our justification before God.

01:38:52

It is wholly the obedience of faith proceeding from true and saving faith in God by Jesus Christ as it was before.

01:38:59

Works before faith are, as by general consent, excluded from any interest in our justification, and we have proved that they are neither conditions of, dispositions unto, nor preparations for it, properly so called, that every true believer is immediately justified on his believing.

01:39:25

See, it's what the men, these guys, they like to quote Owen, I know

01:39:32

Steve Wilkins liked to quote Calvin, it's what they fail to go on and quote with Calvin.

01:39:38

Because what I just read to you is that Owen made it very clear that he was making a separation from obedience to the act of justification.

01:39:49

Yes! When you were, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but when you were debating, Steve, I don't know how many years ago that was now,

01:39:56

I can't, I don't have it in front of me, but that was close to a decade ago, I believe, correct? Yes, about, yeah, 12 years ago.

01:40:03

Okay, and he kept asserting that you, and I know this is not true, in fact

01:40:09

I have not yet met a theonomist who is an advocate of easy believism and cheap grace, but he kept asserting to you that you just believe that we have to offer some kind of mental assent to the facts of the gospel and we are, we have a one -way ticket to heaven just because of that alone, and we can basically live any way we want to after that.

01:40:30

That's not something you believe, nor does anyone who has a historic understanding of Reformed theology.

01:40:37

No, I don't believe in easy believism. I've preached this way, Chris, I've said when you're dealing with a relationship of justification to works, it's like sailing a ship through dangerous rocks.

01:40:51

You've got to avoid the rocks of easy believism that not everyone who says to me,

01:40:56

Lord, Lord, as Jesus says, will enter the kingdom of heaven. There must be holiness of life that shows the fruit of having been justified.

01:41:05

So you have to avoid crashing into the rocks of easy believism, and then you've got to be careful that you don't crash into the rocks of legalism, whereby the keeping of the law, you somehow have merited, or that you are contributing to your justification.

01:41:26

Both are terrible sins that need to be avoided, and you've got to sail a straight ship through that.

01:41:34

Now, in Romans 8 .8, Paul says that those who are in the flesh cannot please

01:41:43

God. So we know that someone who is still dead in their sins can do nothing, not even offer a faith that pleases

01:41:51

God in order to save them, as our Arminian friends somehow believe this can occur, and Roman Catholics, of course.

01:42:00

They believe that somehow, with some kind of provenient grace, a dead sinner summons up this faith.

01:42:07

But we do agree that regenerate people are freed from bondage to sin.

01:42:13

We have the capability of obeying, but it seems that there is an exaggerated understanding of this by the federal visionists.

01:42:21

Correct me if I'm wrong. Just because we can obey does not mean that we will ever completely obey.

01:42:29

I mean, who could possibly obey the command to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength?

01:42:37

Nobody can do that. Am I right on that? Yes, you're exactly right, Chris, and that's the point.

01:42:49

That was Paul's point in Galatians 3. He says, Cursed is everyone that does not abide by all that is written in the law.

01:42:59

There's that perfect standard that God demands. And he says, the law was given as a tutor to lead us to Christ.

01:43:08

The law was given to the unbeliever to convict them. I can't keep that law.

01:43:15

I'm guilty. I deserve hell. Somebody rescue me. And then the gospel is,

01:43:22

I'm going to tell you who can save you. It's Jesus. And if you put your faith in Him, He will save you.

01:43:31

And so, yes, as a Christian, we cannot, in this life, we cannot perfectly keep that law, but the demand is still there.

01:43:45

Right, amen. And if you could provide us some more quotes that would be revealing of what federal visionists actually believe.

01:43:53

Okay, let's see here. While you're looking, I'll announce our email address again, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:44:01

chrisarnson at gmail .com, if you have a question. In fact, let me just, if you could quickly ask one of our listener questions.

01:44:10

Jess in Macon, Georgia, who basically says, if you could ask

01:44:17

John, I'm sorry, if you could ask Doug Wilson one question of clarification from last

01:44:24

Friday, what would it be? I would ask, well, that's tough.

01:44:38

One question, because there's a series of questions I would love to ask Doug Wilson. Well, you could give us a series, as long as it's not so long that we eliminate your quotes.

01:44:48

Yeah, I want him to reaffirm to me, well, for one thing, to distance himself and say, tell me, you do not believe in an initial and a final justification, do you?

01:45:05

Because they do believe in a progressive justification. So I would want to ask

01:45:12

Doug, is there only one justification, and there's not two?

01:45:19

And part of that is, you do not believe, Doug, that it is progressive, do you?

01:45:28

So that's what I would ask. And when you say one justification, you're talking about justification before God, because in James, we are told of a justification before men, correct?

01:45:40

Right. Right. Justification before God. How? Is it at one time, or is it progressive,

01:45:48

Doug? And so I would like a further clarification from Doug on that. By the way,

01:45:54

Jess, if you give us your full mailing address in Macon, Georgia, since you are a first -time questioner, you will receive a brand new

01:46:00

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers, and compliments of CVBBS .com,

01:46:05

who will be shipping that out to you. So get your email address to us. I'm sorry, your mailing address to us as soon as possible.

01:46:12

So if you could continue with some quotes now. Okay. I'm going to give you one. For example,

01:46:19

Norman Shepard has said this. He says,

01:46:24

The law does not set forth a works -merit principle in opposition to grace and faith. It testifies to the grace of God revealed in Jesus.

01:46:31

The Mosaic covenant embodies promises. Promises can be received only by faith. Obedience is simply an expression of faith in the promises of God, not an alternative to faith.

01:46:44

And then, let's see.

01:46:56

And once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you'd like to join us with a question before we run out of time, and we are rapidly reaching that point.

01:47:05

Yes, let me give you one more quote, and maybe anybody else wants to ask a question, I'll be glad to entertain it. Steve said,

01:47:12

The question has always been, What does the Lord require? We have changed the question since Luther's day.

01:47:21

Imperceptible to some, but quite drastically if you look at it. The question is commonly, What must

01:47:26

I do to be saved? But that's the wrong question. The question is, What does the

01:47:31

Lord require? Because in ancient one, What must I do to be saved? You move in the idea of sola, sola, sola, and then you have the sola fide, and if you only are saved by faith apart from any activity or response to God's word, then what kind of faith is that?

01:47:50

Now you see, right there, Steve has confused. He wants us to think, just like he thought,

01:47:58

Well, if I take away any works from the act of justification, that somehow by that act,

01:48:07

I've gone over to easy believism, which is, that's an illogical leap.

01:48:14

No, again, there is that relationship of good works to justification.

01:48:20

It's the fruit or the evidence. Remember, Steve said, We're not talking about the fruit or the evidence.

01:48:27

He says it's the very essence of that faith that saves. Now I don't have time to go into what

01:48:34

John Calvin has to say to utterly refute the Federal Vision men at this point.

01:48:40

We just don't have the time to do that. Now, could one rightly say that a genuine faith that justifies is a trusting faith?

01:48:52

That it is not just... Because there are brilliant men who are

01:48:58

Bible scholars who have memorized great portions, long portions of the

01:49:05

Scripture by heart. And some of them may come to acknowledge as a fact,

01:49:13

Yes, Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin, and only through that sacrifice does anyone have any ability to enter

01:49:25

Heaven for all eternity. But this person really is not regenerate. He's not someone who actually lives his life by that confession or that belief.

01:49:36

So therefore, that faith that he has has absolutely no trust in what he is saying.

01:49:42

So isn't there something different about that faith that justifies a person?

01:49:49

True saving faith is a faith that truly trusts in Jesus Christ alone, and that faith that saves bears fruit.

01:50:03

Jesus said this in John 15, 8. He says, well, in that whole section,

01:50:11

He says, I'm the vine, you're the branches. Jesus says,

01:50:16

Abide in me, and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit itself, it abides in the vine. I'm the vine, you're the branches.

01:50:23

He who abides in me, I in him, he bears much fruit. If anyone does not abide in me, he's thrown away as a branch, drives up, they gather them, they cast them to the fire, they are burned.

01:50:34

If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be done to you. By this is my

01:50:41

Father glorified that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

01:50:50

You see, the evidence, the fruit, the godliness, the fruit of the

01:50:56

Spirit, are the evidences that faith really is there, true saving faith.

01:51:06

And it may be 30 -fold, 60 -fold, or 100 -fold, but at least there is some there.

01:51:13

That's the point. Now, let's see, we have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

01:51:23

And Christopher says, is there not something that they teach in the federal vision that totally obliterates the historically reformed understanding of unconditional election in that somebody who is truly elected by God can become unelected?

01:51:42

Yes, one of the problems in my book, Danger in the Camp, I have a chapter in there where I say, those in the federal vision deny every single point of the five points of Calvinism.

01:51:58

Now, that may say, well, they confess to be in the reformed tradition, but I prove in the book from their own writings they don't believe in total depravity, they don't believe in unconditional election, in the nature of atonement they have blurred that, and they believe that you can lose your salvation.

01:52:22

Now, that's another question that I would want to ask Doug Wilson, because I thought it was very damaging, 12 years ago, what he had written, that he says apostasy is a real, genuine thing, and it wasn't just that it applied to someone who was actually in the covenant.

01:52:46

Now, I would want Doug, you need to clarify that for me. You mean a truly regenerate person, in his opinion, can become apostate?

01:52:56

Yes, that was the point. He's been, and they have argued that point.

01:53:04

For example, Steve Wilkins argued that. He said that initial justification, at your water baptism, and that's the point, at your water baptism, you have all of the saving graces of the

01:53:18

Lord Jesus. And therefore, and what that leads to, I remember when

01:53:24

I first started studying the federal vision back in 2002, my first reaction was, if they're consistent, they're going to have to deny the perseverance of the saints, and that's exactly what they did.

01:53:40

In fact, this is a related question. We have an anonymous listener who says,

01:53:48

I have friends who declare that they are in the federal vision, and they also claim to be

01:53:54

Reformed. I do not understand why they insist on saying they are

01:53:59

Reformed, because everybody who is Reformed outside of the federal vision says that they are seriously in error.

01:54:06

Are there any openly Arminian individuals of note that also say that they are federal visionists?

01:54:15

I have not known of any. I would have to plead ignorance there. I don't know of any.

01:54:20

This is a view that arose within, if I may say, the matrix of the

01:54:28

Reformed community. It seems like an effort, though, to give credence to many of the major Arminian arguments against Calvinism.

01:54:39

Well, yes. I mean, as I said in one of the chapters of my book, they deny every point of the five points of Calvinism.

01:54:47

Well, then they are Arminian. It's the Arminian who denies unconditional election. It's the

01:54:52

Arminian who doesn't believe in total depravity, as we would understand. It's the Arminian that has this unlimited view of the

01:55:01

Atonement, that he died for everybody here respectively, not just for his elect. It's the Arminian who believes that you can lose your salvation.

01:55:10

So, yes, they have adopted an Arminian soteriology, and that's what is so sad.

01:55:19

Well, but even an evangelical Arminian, though, would say that our works have nothing to do with justifying us before Christ.

01:55:30

I mean, I don't believe John Wesley believed his works meritoriously contributed to his justification, unless I'm wrong on that.

01:55:38

I don't recall ever reading it. I think you're correct on that, is that there are

01:55:44

Arminians who, I've always said this, I believe the Arminians, where they have erred is that they have failed to understand how

01:55:54

God sovereignly applies his saving grace. They are confused on which comes first, regeneration or faith.

01:56:03

They want to put faith first. They're wrong there. So they are confused in that regard.

01:56:12

So the Arminian, at that point, doesn't understand election as he ought to.

01:56:21

And we have a question from Dauphin County, Pennsylvania. Susan Margaret says,

01:56:27

On your program last Friday, Chris, you seemed to agree with Doug Wilson that there are people who are confused about justification that may be genuinely born -again believers, and you pointed to the fact that the

01:56:42

Apostle Paul treated the Christians in the Church of Galatia as brothers in Christ, even though he chastised them for being duped and deceived by the

01:56:55

Judaizers, and he treated the Judaizers in a much more harsh tone and declared that they were to be anathema.

01:57:01

Can your guest today comment on those comments that you made along with Doug Wilson?

01:57:07

Yes, that listener is correct that I said, and I'm not really certain about what's going on here, but it seems that Paul does have a level of graciousness towards the deceived

01:57:20

Galatians who have been deceived by the Judaizers, albeit we must,

01:57:26

I would think, conclude that it was temporary. And then the Judaizers themselves, who are the leaders in this movement who are actively seeking to drag these individuals spiritually, that is, into a false gospel,

01:57:43

Paul treats them differently. I mean, am I right here in any way? Yeah, well, you know, he calls them, oh, you foolish

01:57:50

Galatians who have bewitched you. Yes, he does call them brothers, though, at the same time. Yeah, he starts out and he says, have you fallen from grace?

01:57:59

Now, in the context, what falling from grace there in the context is, don't go back to a works paradigm.

01:58:07

Don't buy into those Judaizers who are trying to tell you otherwise.

01:58:13

And it really goes back, Chris, to what we were discussing at the first part of the program about it's possible for someone to be in the

01:58:20

Roman Catholic Church, but they're not really embracing

01:58:26

Romanism, and you talked about your mom, and I know of other people like that.

01:58:33

And again, the Arminian, for example, just because he's confused about how

01:58:42

God applies his saving grace doesn't mean that he's not trusting in Jesus Christ alone, because I have talked to many an

01:58:49

Arminian who will emphatically say, as you are saved by faith and not by works.

01:58:56

By the way, John, we are now out of time. Do you have any contact information that you care to give? Well, I can encourage people to go to my publishing website, and I have a section there on the

01:59:08

Federal Vision. That is triumphantpublications .com.

01:59:15

triumphantpublications .com, and you can order, I'm assuming, your book, A Danger in the Camp. Yes, you can order books, and I have other information there on the

01:59:24

Federal Vision that you can find very informative. And I want to remind our listeners that Dr. Dewey Roberts will be once again spending an interview with us, this time for two hours, to discuss historic

01:59:36

Christianity and the Federal Vision this Thursday, February 1st, 4 to 6 p .m., and we are working on a debate between my guest today,

01:59:44

John Otis and Steve Schlissel. I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater