May 7, 2020 Show with Dr. Gregory Reynolds and Dr. Bill Shishko on “Salvation, Incarnation, & Communication: The Importance of Physical Presence in the Media Ecology of the Church”

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, in downtown

00:10

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

01:00

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:10

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:20

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday. On this seventh day of May, 2020, and I am thrilled, beyond words, to have two excellent guests return to the program, and although each of them have been on before, this is the first time they are on together on this show, which makes it even more exciting to me.

01:44

We have Dr. Gregory Reynolds and Pastor Bill Shishko on the program today.

01:49

Dr. Gregory Reynolds is a former church planter and pastor in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination, and current editor for Ordained Servant, a journal for church officers, whose doctoral dissertation,

02:04

The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures, Preaching in an Electronic Age, was published.

02:09

And also Pastor Bill Shishko, who is the pastor at The Haven in Deer Park, Long Island, New York, a congregation of the

02:17

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and Pastor Bill is probably most well known for pastoring the

02:24

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, previously, and I believe, Pastor Bill, was it over 30 years?

02:33

Thirty -five years. Thirty -five years, wow. A little bit longer than you are old. I wish that was true.

02:40

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome Dr. Greg Reynolds and Pastor Bill Shishko back to Iron Sharksman's Iron.

02:51

Great to be here with you. And today we are addressing a very unique theme, and one that I think is very important and should be quite fascinating and controversial, salvation, incarnation, and communication, the importance of physical presence in the media ecology of the

03:11

Church. And before we go into that major theme, Dr. Reynolds, if you could go into a brief summary of what your book,

03:22

The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures, Preaching in the Electronic Age, is all about, which, as I said before, is your published doctoral dissertation.

03:32

Yes, actually, Jay Adams made us get something that would be publishable so that it wouldn't be sitting on a library shelf somewhere and not be good to anyone since it was a doctorate of ministry, so we ought to be ministering to at least other ministers.

03:47

And in this case, my major emphasis was to try to help, first of all,

03:53

I had to learn, and then to try to help others understand the nature of electronic media in order that we might not be intimidated by it as a replacement for the actual live pastoral preaching of ministers of the

04:08

Word. And live pastoral preaching, those three words are important to go together as they give really the theme of the book that I was really promoting, the importance and the centrality of the medium that God has designed for the edification of his people and the evangelization of the world, which is live preaching.

04:32

Now, unfortunately, the first eight of the ten chapters are examining the nature of media and the way it's affected the

04:39

Church, and I say unfortunately because I don't get to preaching until the last two chapters.

04:45

I actually have a book that I've written that I am now trying to get published that unpacks the last two chapters in another 350 -page book that hopefully will encourage preachers in a number of different areas that I didn't have the space to cover in the first book.

05:04

Do you have a title for that one yet? And yeah, it's The Voice of the Good Shepherd. Wow. And it's going to be about preaching in the electronic age, and so we'll be really focused on preaching.

05:14

It would be quite adequate, I think, to be a textbook for homiletics, because it covers media in a way that I don't think most, if any, textbooks that I know of cover.

05:30

Well, is the word is worth a thousand pictures still in print? Yes, it is.

05:38

So it probably needs to be, I probably need to go and update it a little bit. But it could be. Of course, the one thing that it doesn't deal with is it doesn't deal with social media and mobile media.

05:51

So the smartphone, the iPad, and the various social platforms that we have, such as Facebook, it doesn't deal with those at all.

06:00

And of course, this definitely impacts the personal presence that is so important to the

06:08

Church. Yeah, I was amazed when I was looking at my old website for Iron Trip and Zion Radio when

06:17

I was broadcasting out of New York and found out how many years ago

06:22

I interviewed you on that program. I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 years ago or more.

06:28

Yeah. Well, the book was published in 2001, and boy, the last two decades have flown by.

06:36

Yeah. But I still, this is a subject that I have a great passion for. In fact,

06:41

I'm working on an article now, which we can discuss a bit later in the program, for Ordained Servant, for the

06:48

June -July online edition, that will give my reflections, because not everyone's going to agree with every detail of my reflections on the virtual streaming of virtual so -called worship or church meetings that we've been forced to do as churches because of the pandemic.

07:10

By the way, I don't know if you even know this, although I know you remember the conference quite well,

07:17

I'm sure. But I had the privilege, while you were still the pastor at the

07:24

Westchester Orthodox Presbyterian Church, I had the privilege of hearing and seeing one of my heroes of the faith,

07:34

John Gerstner, conduct a conference on Jonathan Edwards there. Oh, yes, that was amazing.

07:40

We had wonderful conferences back in those days. We've actually had duplicated a number of them here at MSK Presbyterian in Manchester, New Hampshire, over recent years, and John Gerstner was definitely one of our favorites.

07:55

He and his wife stayed with us, and we have wonderful memories of that great fellowship, and also his great expertise on Jonathan Edwards.

08:04

It was inspiring to so many. So you were at that conference, that's right. Yes, I was. That's a neat memory.

08:11

And I recall, at least on several occasions, I was the only one in the building laughing at John Gerstner's jokes.

08:20

That's funny. Sometimes we ministers can be subtle with our humor.

08:27

Now briefly, let us know about the Ordained Servant. Well, Ordained Servant is something that was started by G .I.

08:34

Williamson back in 1992, and in fact, next year, 2021, we'll be celebrating our 30th anniversary as a publication.

08:43

It was conceived originally as a print journal, published four times a year, quarterly, and it was meant to be for church officers to help ministers, elders, and deacons in their ministries in the church, and so it was published that way.

09:04

It went into PDF form, so all of those up until 2005 are on our website in PDF format.

09:13

And then I was asked, when G .I. retired at the age of 80, I was asked by Danny Olinger, General Secretary of our

09:22

Christian Ed Committee, to come on if I was interested in taking the editorship of Ordained Servant.

09:29

Well, it didn't take me more than three seconds to answer a hearty yes, and I've enjoyed doing that ever since.

09:35

And we've expanded in that I try to cover topics such as media ecology and also our interface with contemporary culture, so lots of issues that elders and ministers have to deal with in their ministries.

09:54

Also, one of the things that we did that we'd never done before, there was a kind of debate on the committee, should we go electronic and just do it on the web, or still have a print edition, and we decided that we'd go with both, so that now we have an annual print edition, which takes pretty much all of the content from the ten issues that go online each year.

10:18

I had a fascinating interview with Danny Olinger back in the old days when we were broadcasting out of New York on WNYG and WGBB on Gerhardus Voss.

10:29

Oh yes, he is an expert on Voss. He has a biography that was published by our committee on Christian education back three years ago, because he did it serially in ordained servant from month to month, and then when it was done, he put it together and has published that work, and it's very comprehensive.

10:57

It gives wonderful summaries of some of the work that Voss did that ministers might not have time to read completely, and so it's a very valuable resource.

11:09

Great, well if anybody wants more information on the ordained servant, go to opc .org

11:15

and click resources, and then click periodicals, and I'm sure we'll be announcing that again later on.

11:22

And now I'd like to formally introduce my dear friend, one of my oldest friends after having been born from above by the grace and mercy of Christ, Pastor Bill Shishko.

11:36

And Pastor Bill, tell us a little bit about the Haven for the sake of those in our audience who have not yet heard you on the program, or they may just have a fuzzy memory.

11:48

Yeah, it's been so long since we've met. We've been in lockdown mode a month and a half. I'm not exactly sure what to say.

11:55

We have a rented facility. We rent the facility of the Ascension Lutheran Church in Deer Park.

12:01

We meet at 4 .30 in the afternoon when we're able to meet publicly. But it's a church plant, and I love to say we're reaching out to people.

12:11

A lot of Orthodox Presbyterian churches don't reach out to, not that they don't want to, but we deal with people from very troubled backgrounds in many cases, and we focus on the gospel.

12:23

We emphasize three things, music, message, and mission, and that pretty much defines what we're all about.

12:30

We love singing the praise of God from psalms and hymns. The preaching opens up the scriptures as it teaches us about Jesus, and we are very much involved in ministering to people in various ways.

12:45

So for those in that part of western Suffolk County, once we can begin meeting again, we'd love to have you join us with us for worship.

12:53

Oh, I would personally love to visit there. I have not yet had the opportunity, but looking forward to it. Of course,

12:59

I have had the privilege many times to visit the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square when you were still there, and it was always a joy to be there.

13:09

Well, let me give our email address for our listeners. Anybody who wants to send in a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

13:19

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

13:32

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

13:39

And if you could, Greg, give us a brief introduction to media ecology.

13:46

I've got to admit, that's the first time I recall ever hearing that phrase before, as when

13:51

I was going over the notes for today's program. Yes, it is a mystery to many people because it's not something that's used out in the general public.

14:02

It came really from Marshall McLuhan. Back in the 60s,

14:08

I thought he was a hippie like me, but no, he was definitely a kind of pre -conservative

14:14

Roman Catholic, a brilliant professor, and someone who was trying to get people to understand the nature and power of electronic media and the global village that it's creating.

14:26

His view was he tried to remain somewhat neutral in terms of his assessment, just trying to get us to understand the nature of media.

14:37

And so he would come up with all these interesting statements, like the title of one of his mysterious books called

14:44

The Medium is the Message. And it really could be, it was really The Medium is the Massage.

14:49

And he came up with many, many different variations of that to try to wake people up to think about what media is, what it does, how it changes the way that we view the world.

15:01

And he used the analogy of a fish in water, and basically saying like fish in water we don't really pay attention to the environment, we just kind of swim in it.

15:13

And for Christians, or for all human beings really, it's a dangerous thing to swim in the environment of our creations because our creations, and especially electronic creations, use us rather than we using them much of the time.

15:31

I actually have, Chris, a definition. It's a somewhat technical definition, but I'll unpack it here.

15:37

But I tried to put it all in one brief paragraph. That media ecology is the study of the relationship of media to their cultural environment.

15:50

Ecology is from the Greek oikos, which means house, and deals with the management of households and other realms as interconnected environments or systems.

16:02

So Joseph was a house manager for Pharaoh and for Potiphar, and so that kind of household management involves every aspect of what a household is.

16:14

And media ecology focuses on the critical analysis of media as environments and as part of the larger environment of culture.

16:24

And secondly, media ecology deals with the management or stewardship which the analysis of media warrants.

16:32

And so we have to, it's sort of like fighting a war. You have to understand and analyze the terrain and the armies and the strategies and everything else before you can do anything, but then you must act.

16:46

And so it is that if we understand media, we can act wisely.

16:52

And this is so important for Christians who often think of media as simply tools, and they certainly are tools, but that metaphor doesn't really get us where McLuhan and I think

17:06

I want us to go, which is to see them as that which alter the way we view the world, the way that we relate to God, the church, our families, and our culture, the people around us.

17:22

Just one quick example of that, and it's not an electronic technology, it's the automobile.

17:28

And the automobile has changed the social fabric of the

17:34

Western world in a dramatic way. We're distant from families and even from our churches.

17:40

I often have to drive a long way, and it has completely changed the social and cultural structure of our world, both for good and ill.

17:52

We can go places that we couldn't go back when we only had horses, but at the same time we all also can miss the flowers in our neighbor's yard if we're speeding by in an automobile.

18:03

And so it changes the way that we look at the world.

18:11

So, Pastor Bill, if you could, tell us about the importance of the physical presence in the media ecology of the church.

18:24

Let me back up just a bit. I'd mentioned along with the book Dr. Reynolds mentioned, the book that actually got me catapulted into thinking about all of this is the book that came out in the 1980s and actually later at a 20th anniversary edition,

18:42

Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman. Oh yeah, I remember James Montgomery Boyce first introduced that book to me.

18:50

Dr. Reynolds can fill you in more on that. I believe he interviewed him, but that's on a relatively popular level.

18:57

It is an excellent introduction to the whole field of media ecology, and I guess

19:03

I always illustrate this in this way. The media is the way we communicate with one another, and each medium is different.

19:15

If, for example, a military officer must notify a parent of the death of a son or a daughter, you're not going to text them, and you're not going to email them.

19:27

And you may phone them if that's the only way you can reach them, but more than likely you're going to go personally to announce that to them.

19:36

And that illustrates simply that the medium itself affects the message.

19:43

And then if you want a more biblical way to look at it, think about Christ.

19:50

The Old Testament tells us about God who comes to us in the

19:55

God -man, the Lord Jesus. It tells us about him in word. But the

20:01

New Testament, in the Incarnation, Christ brings to us the very heart of God in his person, not only in his words but in his actions, which is why we should never try to picture

20:15

Christ, the God -man, because everything about his humanity was united with his deity, and he demonstrated those things.

20:25

And this will lead you to your question, Chris. There's a profound reason for that, and that is that God is with us.

20:35

And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the

20:43

Father. Now, with respect to your question, the importance of physical presence in the media ecology of the

20:49

Church, that is embedded in the New Testament. In 1

20:54

Thessalonians 1 .5, and here's where the American Standard Version, Chris, that you promote, does a much better job of translating it than the

21:05

ESV does. When Paul says, our gospel came to you not only in word, it wasn't just information, but also in power and in the

21:16

Holy Spirit and with full conviction. And the original language is, just as you know what kind of man we prove to be among you for your sake.

21:30

That's the importance of physical presence in the media ecology of the Church in one verse.

21:37

Paul's presence with the Thessalonians and with others was inseparable from the power of the

21:46

Holy Spirit and the deep conviction that the word is meant to bring. Because people are not just to hear our words, they're meant to know who we are, what we are, and so on.

21:58

And really, by the Holy Spirit, we are representing that Christ to people.

22:05

Therefore, physical presence is absolutely, it is not an option.

22:12

It is absolutely essential to the effectiveness of ministry. I won't mention them all,

22:17

I don't want to take too much time with it, but just so you see how this is embedded in the

22:23

New Testament, in 1 Thessalonians 2 and verses 7, 8, and 10,

22:29

Paul says the same thing. We were gentle among you, we labored among you, and he bores that in.

22:36

It's the same language of Christ being among us. The elders in Acts 20 and verse 18, they have been called out to labor among the flock.

22:47

Peter says, Shepherd, be among you, flock of God. And I always love to tell people the original email is an epistle.

22:54

And Paul in Romans 1 and Romans 15 says, I wrote to you, but he said,

23:01

I would much rather come to you, I want to be present with you, that I might impart some spiritual gift to you.

23:07

And then in 2 John 12, though I have much to write to you,

23:13

I would rather not use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to come to you and talk face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

23:24

So whatever else is being said here, information is not enough.

23:30

The distinctiveness of Christian ministry, like the distinctiveness of the Incarnation, is that we are with people, that being with people is inseparable from our message.

23:42

And I'd go so far as to say it's inseparable from the effectiveness of that message by the

23:49

Holy Spirit's power. Well, we actually do have an anonymous listener who has sent in an email.

24:01

And this anonymous listener says, Dr. Reynolds and Pastor Shishko, I fear that during this pandemic, when we are banned from actually physically attending the corporate public gathering of the

24:18

Brothers and Sisters in Christ for worship, that while we either listen to recordings of our pastor or watch a live streaming program visually, that although we are singing and we are hearing the word preached, that this is not truly fellowship, and it is not technically truly worship.

24:42

Am I correct on this? Well, that's in a way getting to something that's near the end of the program this evening or this afternoon.

24:55

But I think that he's definitely correct, or she, in asking that question and having, really it's not so much a question as a concern that I would say is extremely legitimate.

25:08

And in fact, I know people, brothers in the ministry that I've had conversations with recently that don't even want to call what we do when we instruct or preach, they don't want to call it preaching.

25:22

And certainly calling it worship is difficult. There are, of course, a number of different ways that sessions that churches are handling the communication of the word each

25:34

Lord's Day. But I think that live streaming can never replace the live worshiping of God's people.

25:44

And when Pastor Shishko was just very nicely and clearly explaining the importance of personal presence in the church, and especially quoting this, one of my favorite verses of late from 2

25:56

John 12, it reminds me of an example. Years ago, I knew someone, a minister, who had someone in their congregation who came to them one

26:06

Sunday and said that so -and -so, a famous preacher that's broadcast on television every week, is a much better preacher than you, and I'm leaving the church, and I'm going to stay home, and that's going to be my worship.

26:19

Well, of course, this is always troubling, and my friend was chagrined.

26:25

And several years later, this gentleman came to him and asked him if he would do a funeral for his father, who had just passed away.

26:34

And the response of my friend was, why don't you ask your TV preacher to do this?

26:40

Well, I think my friend actually did the funeral, but he made the point, which is a powerful one, that nothing replaces that personal relationship that a congregation has with the pastor preacher.

26:55

And that's why I say that I'm defending, and the word is worth a thousand pictures, the concept, the biblical concept, of live pastoral preaching.

27:04

That connection, as Pastor Shishko so well said, is essential to the

27:10

Church and to pastoral ministry. Well, Pastor Bill, yes.

27:17

Yeah, I would agree exactly with what Dr. Reynolds said, and urge your listener to continue to listen, because we're hoping to unpack that in a little more detail in the next segment, and then in the latter part of the program, talk more about some of the implications of this, what the electronic environment has done in relation to the pandemic.

27:39

But all I would say at this point is, I think that terms have been very much confused here.

27:48

We talk about corporate worship when a minister, sometimes in an empty building, or sometimes with a skeleton congregation, leads a service, and then others are getting it in their home.

28:02

That's not corporate worship. That's family worship. It's family worship that's led by someone else.

28:10

And not that I want to make a person an offender for a word, but even that confusion is not at all a healthy situation.

28:23

People then begin to think less of what corporate worship really is, as well as, and here's where Dr.

28:30

Reynolds can develop it more than I can, it is in a real sense pandering to the performance and media star mentality.

28:40

It's not that a minister intends this. I'm sure they don't. But people perceive it this way.

28:46

This is the ministerial personality that I'm seeing on a television or on YouTube. Now they can do that at a gathered assembly as well, but they're less prone to do that, because it's a whole person communication, which is to hold people in a physical presence, which is not what television is.

29:08

Television is an observer. But as we go on, I'm sure Dr. Reynolds will develop that more.

29:15

Yeah, there's some good things that I can say, and I think we're running out of time in this segment, but about Neil Postman, whom you mentioned,

29:23

Pastor Shishko, and he has a wonderful chapter in that book called

29:28

Shuffle Off to Bethlehem, and we can talk a bit about what you said and unpack that a little bit, in terms of the preacher being, as he says, top banana on television.

29:39

In fact, it was quite fascinating the in -depth insight that Neil Postman had, even though he was a secular

29:47

Jew, from what I recall. That's right. He was quite a liberal Jew, and yet he did understand a few important things about the

29:54

Second Commandment and what worship is. I remember when

30:00

I read the book, and I read his section on the Second Commandment, not to make graven images, and while he probably had no idea who the

30:09

Puritan John Owen was, it was a very Owen -esque kind of exposition of what the

30:16

Second Commandment says. Wow. Well, we have to go to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of their own,

30:25

Our email address is ChrisArnzen, at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N, at gmail .com.

30:33

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside the

30:39

USA, please only remain anonymous, if your question involves a personal and private matter.

30:44

And I would include on that, in fact I would insist on that, if you are saying anything critical about the church where you are a member.

30:53

And we obviously wouldn't want anybody to name any specific church if they are criticizing it, unless you're talking about a denomination in general of some kind.

31:04

But we are going to be right back, God willing, right after these messages from our sponsors.

31:19

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

31:25

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

31:33

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with, or switching to, the

31:38

NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President of the NASB. I'm President and Professor of Systematic and Homiletical Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

31:49

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

31:55

First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York. And the NASB is my Bible of choice.

32:01

I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia. And the NASB is my

32:06

Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Justin Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada.

32:13

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

32:22

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas.

32:30

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York.

32:38

And the NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

32:44

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

32:50

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB. And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

32:59

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

33:16

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

33:22

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

33:27

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

33:44

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

33:50

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

34:04

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

34:13

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

34:22

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

34:27

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

34:34

Amen. This is

35:27

Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

35:36

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

35:48

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

36:04

bringing so many uncertainties. When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen?

36:11

How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like? Well, join us each Friday on the program

36:17

Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen and Pastor Joe Jacobs as they explore

36:23

God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at firstloveradio .org.

36:32

That's firstloveradio .org. Each Friday at 1 p .m.

36:37

Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org.

36:43

Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. To hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.

36:59

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

37:06

Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

37:18

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient Scripture, dissemination of Scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

37:29

Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

37:35

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

37:47

Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

37:59

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

38:07

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

38:13

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

38:21

today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

38:42

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

38:48

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

38:54

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

39:01

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

39:19

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

39:26

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

39:35

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

39:41

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

39:51

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

40:09

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

40:17

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

40:25

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

40:31

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of the book is to teach the world The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

40:44

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

40:52

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com That's solid -ground -books .com

41:00

and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

41:06

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget folks,

41:13

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio could not exist barring a miracle of God without the financial support of solid -ground -books .com

41:22

So, if you want to keep us on the air, please keep Solid Ground Christian Books in business by continuing to purchase books from them or buying books from them for the very first time and with all the special occasions for gift giving coming up in the very near future solid -ground -books .com

41:41

is an ideal resource for you whether it's for Mother's Day, Father's Day, Graduation Day, going back to school gifts, wedding anniversaries, birthdays, even bereavement gifts and other gifts for all kinds of occasions not only for those amongst your friends and loved ones who are

42:03

Christians but also for the lost, perhaps even especially for the lost so that a gift you give them might be used of God to draw them closer to the

42:11

Savior. And we ask of you to please purchase books from them as frequently as you can at solid -ground -books .com

42:21

solid -ground -books .com and always remember to tell them that you heard about that ministry from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sheriff and Zion Radio.

42:29

And we are now back to our discussion with our guest today Dr. Gregory Reynolds and Pastor Bill Shishko and if you just tuned us in, our theme is

42:39

Salvation, Incarnation and Communication The Importance of Physical Presence in the

42:44

Media Ecology of the Church If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

42:52

chrisarnzen at gmail .com And Dr.

42:57

Reynolds, if you could tell us about virtual church meetings and their impact.

43:06

Yes, thank you Chris. It's something that I had lots of ideas about as a media ecologist thinking about being good stewards of electronic media and being firmly opposed to the idea that somehow cyber church would ever be a real church or have real worship and so now

43:27

I've actually experienced what I've always thought would be really a horrible attempt at substituting something like virtual church for the real thing but we have to by necessity because of this pandemic whatever one might think of the shutdowns which

43:46

I'm going to be looking at hopefully in the summer after I've had more time to reflect the problem is that we're stuck with this but it's also given some of us an experience that we can reflect upon and so that's what

44:01

I've been doing I'm actually working on an article that will be published on the first of June in the electronic version of Ordained Servant Years ago,

44:11

Chris, back in 2012 I was thinking it was only a couple of years ago but as you get older you forget how quickly the time goes and I wrote an article based on some lectures that I was doing for the local ministers here called

44:27

Face to Face The Importance of Personal Presence in Ministry and Life and if you go online you can find this it's in the 2012

44:37

PDF version of Ordained Servant so that's like the print version that's been put into PDF or you could get it in the

44:47

December electronic version online 2012 but I went through the

44:53

Bible and I thought it would be fascinating to see just what the Bible teaches about face the face, and of course you have the face of God you have the faces of people you have

45:06

Paul talking about the importance and Roman justice of having your accusers come before you face to face something we're forgetting in our culture called due process and so the importance of the face is really amazing there are hundreds and hundreds of references to the face and as Pastor Shishko quoted a couple things

45:28

First Thessalonians is a wonderful place to see the importance of this in worship and to see how very deficient the present situation is in terms of our gatherings on the

45:46

Lord's Day I thought one of the helpful things though I personally believe that what we're going to be doing is that those of us who have never thought that any kind of electronic mediation was good for Sunday gatherings because it wouldn't actually be a gathering we're so hungry now to get back to worshipping together gathered in corporate worship that I think it will actually improve those who've already come with those convictions to the post -pandemic situation however, the larger church

46:27

I believe and there may be some within more solid churches that might be tempted by this need to go back and think about the nature of what public worship is in itself and so I'm just thinking about the terms that Pastor Shishko mentioned corporate and think about the word congregation it actually means to gather a flock from the

46:50

Latin congregare and so to congregate involves our physical presence and I was thinking that here what are we celebrating on Sundays on the

47:02

Lord's Day it's the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and Orthodox Christians have always emphasized that it was historical bodily resurrection of the

47:13

Christ of Scripture that this was absolutely essential and central to the nature of our celebration and so for us not to be bodily present is a contradiction to that our directive for public worship in the

47:28

Orthodox Presbyterian Church which has as of 2011 been revised and expanded and I think in a very helpful way it says this so eloquently because God's people worship not as an aggregation of individuals but as a congregation of those who are members of one another in Christ public worship is to be conducted as a corporate activity in which all the members participate in the body of Christ so they're really emphasizing having no idea about what this pandemic would do of course written a decade ago but recognizing that as embodied image bearers of God who are now connected with the resurrection from the dead that our presence together gathered is essential to the very nature of worship and Pastor Bill tell us about the approach during the time of church shutdown the promotion of family worship let me just add one other thing to what

48:34

Dr. Reynolds said I'm not the brightest light on the pole so these things are all happening out here and I didn't think much about the virtual worship until I read an article about the virtual Lord's Supper and that's when

48:49

I started blowing the whistle with different people but I would just add to what

48:56

Dr. Reynolds said before I get to that our gatherings on the Lord's Day as our whole

49:02

Lord's Days are meant to be they're foretastes of our everlasting Sabbath and our everlasting

49:09

Sabbath there's nothing virtual about it it's real we're really gathered with real people and the extent to which we emphasize the virtual aspect detracts from that but what we did and I don't think we did it right churches were broadsided by this and thank

49:28

God they wanted to do something to keep congregations together and they had Zoom they had

49:34

Facebook they had YouTube that they could use and many churches had the kind of equipment that they could do this well so I'm not faulting them it's just that Dr.

49:46

Reynolds and I are Orthodox Presbyterian ministers and we're used to thinking things through biblically before we do it and so what we opted to do is

49:56

I created I formed a bulletin that is similar to our regular bulletin that includes the hymns in it and so on but we just made clear that it was for family worship and so there's a section for the head of the home to lead or if it's a single individual a single individual can do it it didn't include the things only a minister can do but it included portions of reading the scriptures and so on and then when it actually came and then there were links there were links to where people could sing along with a congregation in their family worship if they wanted to do it in most cases

50:34

Margaret and I just sang acapella because we're used to that and then at the point of the message

50:40

I did record something for the congregation to listen to but I wouldn't regret that for one minute because family worship is something that should be should be embedded in our piety and this has given us that opportunity to do it again

50:55

I want to be clear Chris I'm not saying others who did it differently did it wrong I don't mean that but I do

51:02

I really wonder if we have thought through the way we should what we've done for worship during this time of the pandemic well what

51:12

I'm going to do now is I'm going to read you a question from RJ in White Plains, New York and then

51:20

I'll have you two each answer the question when we return from our midway break and RJ says what is your greatest concern about the live streaming of worship services during the pandemic because this is only intended to be a temporary measure obviously so what is the great concern and we'll have you respond obviously to RJ and we are going to our midway break right now this is the longer than normal break folks so please be patient with us

51:56

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida who airs this program twice daily in a pre -recorded format once in morning drive and once in the evening they are required by the

52:09

FCC to localize this program to Lake City, Florida so therefore while we are airing our globally heard commercials they are airing their local public service announcements and other things that are local to Lake City, Florida so please be patient with us as it's a longer break but also please use this time wisely write down the information provided by as many of our sponsors as you possibly can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them which will result

52:44

God willing in the longer life of this program because we depend upon our advertisers to exist

52:51

I know that some folks complain about the number of ads that we run but we just do not take in enough donations on a monthly basis to have that alone carry the broadcast we require our advertisements to exist so please be patient with the length of this break and also please write down that information provided by our sponsors and also write down questions for our guests today

53:18

Dr. Greg Reynolds and Pastor Bill Shishko and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:25

don't go away, God willing we are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music music

54:31

Study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

54:39

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

54:50

For more details on Post -Tenebrous Luxe Bible Rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

54:58

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

55:26

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

55:35

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

55:43

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

55:49

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

55:54

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship.

56:06

Performed with faith, joy, and sobriety. Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

56:18

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

56:25

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

56:34

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, this is

56:52

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

56:59

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

57:11

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

57:20

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

57:27

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

57:37

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

57:42

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

57:50

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

57:57

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Jesus Christ In fellowship, play, and together.

58:31

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

58:38

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

58:45

Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Music Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

58:56

Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

59:09

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

59:26

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

59:36

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981.

59:43

717 -697 -1981. Or visit solidrockremodeling .com.

59:50

That's solidrockremodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

01:00:04

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:00:12

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:00:21

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:00:29

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:00:43

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

01:00:50

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:00:57

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:01:06

That's liyfc .org. Chris Orensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

01:01:20

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

01:01:26

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:01:32

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

01:01:38

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

01:01:46

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

01:01:52

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:01:58

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

01:02:11

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

01:02:23

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

01:02:29

Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win. Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878.

01:02:39

1 -800 -669 -4878. Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:02:48

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.

01:03:03

When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

01:03:10

Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host, Chris Arnson, and Pastor Joe Jacobs as they explore

01:03:19

God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at firstloveradio .org.

01:03:27

That's firstloveradio .org each Friday at 1 p .m.

01:03:32

Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org,

01:03:39

Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern, to hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.

01:03:52

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:03:57

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:04:06

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

01:04:11

NASB. I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and the

01:04:19

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Anthony Uvino, founder of thereformrookie .com

01:04:26

and co -founder of New York Apologetics, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tim Bushong of Syracuse Baptist Church in Syracuse, Indiana, and the

01:04:36

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Eli Ayala, founder of Revealed Apologetics and staff member with the

01:04:42

Historical Bible Society, and the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Josh Miller of Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and the

01:04:52

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

01:05:01

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

01:05:11

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

01:05:17

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:05:23

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:05:32

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:05:46

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:05:52

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:05:59

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:06:07

Since 1987, the family owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

01:06:12

Christian books and bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:06:25

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:06:38

Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

01:06:49

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

01:06:56

That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:07:04

And don't forget, you can call cvbbs .com if you prefer ordering over the phone at 800 -656 -0231.

01:07:15

800 -656 -0231. That's toll free. And you can only call that number, or I should say you should only call that number,

01:07:24

Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time. And because those are the only hours and days when somebody is manning that phone line, there is no voicemail.

01:07:38

So just remember, whenever you call and order books, to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:07:44

That's 800 -656 -0231. And before we return to our guests,

01:07:52

Dr. Gregory Reynolds and Pastor Bill Shishko, who are addressing salvation, incarnation, and communication, the importance of physical presence in the media ecology of the church.

01:08:03

I just have a couple of important announcements to make. First of all, you've been hearing commercials promoting our weekly

01:08:11

Friday coronavirus update with Pastor Joe Jakowitz of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, where he not only gives updates, but gives biblical application on how we should respond to these updates on the virus.

01:08:28

Well, tomorrow we are taking a break for just one day from that update because our friend

01:08:36

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is going to be our guest tomorrow, 4 -6 p .m.

01:08:43

Make sure you put a note on your refrigerator or wherever else you'll most likely remember about the program, perhaps on your screen on your laptop or something.

01:08:55

But we look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow for Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and that's

01:09:04

Friday, the 8th of May. And then on Monday, we've got returning to the program

01:09:10

Dr. Kurt Daniel for Part 3 of his discussion on his monumental 900 -page book,

01:09:18

The History and Theology of Calvinism. And I will give you folks a heads up, the first six people who write in very good questions that are intelligent enough to be asked and answered on the air, the first six of you will receive a free copy of this book.

01:09:38

So it's well worth your while to start thinking of a question now. It's Monday, May 11th.

01:09:45

We are having Kurt Daniel, Dr. Kurt Daniel return to the broadcast for Part 3 of our discussion on The History and Theology of Calvinism.

01:09:54

And every other day, Monday through Friday, in this month is booked, and they're all fascinating guests, and I hope that you listen every day, or as often as you can, and send in those questions.

01:10:08

And this part of the program is my least favorite, it's my least comfortable, or most uncomfortable part of the program, because I have to ask you for money.

01:10:21

I especially hate doing it because there are so many charlatans out there begging for money and offering all kinds of things that are just lies out of the pit of hell, and I hate to be thought of by some, perhaps, in the same company, but I hope that if you listen to this program often enough, you know that our program is light years away from the kind of programming that I just mentioned disparagingly.

01:10:49

We need your money, and if you really do love the program and don't want it to disappear, please, we ask of you to go to www .ironsharpensironradio

01:10:58

.com, then click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion, and if you would like to mail in a check instead, an address will appear on the screen when you click

01:11:14

Support at www .ironsharpensironradio .com, where you can mail the check via snail mail made out to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:11:22

You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

01:11:27

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what we believe, and we would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars because we lost two of our largest advertisers during this coronavirus pandemic because they had their businesses hit extremely hard, and they have assured us that they believe they will continue in the future, but their loss was a big hit.

01:11:58

So if you could help us make up for that loss with as many donations and as generous a donation as you can send, that would be wonderful.

01:12:08

And please, folks, remember, never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your own local church where you're a member in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:12:19

Never take from them to give to us, especially now during this coronavirus pandemic when churches have been hit really hard, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if your own church where you are a member has been hit very hard.

01:12:33

So don't siphon money away from them, and don't put your family in financial jeopardy either by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:12:40

Those two things are commands of God providing for the church where you are a member and providing for your family.

01:12:47

Providing for this show is not a command of God, but if you're blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you love this show, and you don't want it to disappear, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:12:58

click support, then click click to donate now. And if you are not a member of a local

01:13:05

Bible -believing church, please, if you're having a hard time finding one, I may be able to help you.

01:13:11

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth, and I have helped many people in this audience find churches where they live, or sometimes they're looking for churches where they're vacationing, or for friends, loved ones, and family members who are unaware of churches near where they live in all parts of the world.

01:13:32

So if you need help, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:13:38

and put I need a church in the subject line, and I may be able to help you. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests

01:13:45

Dr. Gregory Reynolds and Pastor Bill Oshishko on salvation, incarnation, and communication, the importance of physical presence in the media ecology of the church.

01:13:58

And remember folks, always give your first name, city and state, and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

01:14:08

And as you both may recall, our last question comes from an individual who is wondering why you're so concerned if these live streaming of the worship services, even if they are deficient, even if there's many things that technically separate them from true corporate worship, even though that is the case, it's a temporary measure.

01:14:34

Why is there a great concern? Well I think, and I'm just working of course on this article for the

01:14:43

June edition of Ordained Servant, and I believe that one of the things that we all notice is that it's so informal, and we can talk about the details of this a bit later, and it's so easy, it's so efficient.

01:14:59

We don't have to drive, I mean we've hardly put gas in our automobiles over the last six weeks, because we don't drive very far.

01:15:08

And we're at home, we're comfortable, we're in leisure clothes rather than dressing up for worship, and while that's very appropriate in the home environment, it's really what home is made for.

01:15:23

You just described about 80 % of the evangelical churches in the United States. Well exactly, and so the point

01:15:30

I think of our concern, and I'm sure that Pastor Shishko would share this, is that while I don't worry so much about our churches, though there are many people in them that are really wonderful believers that have never thought through any of this about the electronic media, but we've got the first church in cyberspace goes back 30 years, and so the electronic media has made huge incursions into the evangelical church and the

01:16:00

Bible -believing church in America, and all this will do is simply reinforce it with some people, and I've just been checking up on some things that have been said in an article in Christianity Today on communion, and what churches are doing with that, and I find it to be very, very troubling.

01:16:18

Now what are they doing? Because I haven't seen this personally. Are they having somebody on the screen partaking in the elements of the supper, and everybody at home is supposed to have their own portion of the elements?

01:16:31

There's quite a variety, and Chris, I can send you this article. I've been collecting a lot of material on this matter of communion, but one of the things that they do is one church passes out little communion cups that are sealed with the grape juice, of course it's not wine, it's grape juice, and then a little piece of bread, and they're passing that out so that people can have it at home, and of course one of the things, not only is it contrary to the idea of being the gathered people of God partaking of the body and blood of Christ in this symbolic and powerful way, but there's no oversight, and it's very clear in the

01:17:13

Bible that there must be oversight, that the Lord's Supper is an in -house business, and it's a corporate business, and so kind of the whole idea of doing it via the internet to me is, again, it's totally contrary to the nature of what the

01:17:29

Church is. Do you have anything to add, Pastor Bill? Yeah, well first of all,

01:17:35

I commend R .J. from White Plains, New York. He's one of these very, very rare New Yorkers who really knows how to ask a question.

01:17:44

What do you mean? They usually preach? Yeah, most New Yorkers give you a lecture, but yeah,

01:17:50

I mean, he asked, what's your greatest concern about live streaming during the pandemic, but then he said, this is temporary.

01:17:58

Well, I'm not so sure. The more you read now, there were people who were saying, building on what

01:18:05

Dr. Reynolds just said, boy, there's things that we can incorporate into what we do down the line, and as I put it, it's convenience over commitment, or even commandment, we're not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, and what

01:18:24

I think both Dr. Reynolds and I are trying to emphasize is that's not negotiable, that's indispensable to the idea of the

01:18:34

Church as Dr. Reynolds put it, a congregation is a gathered flock.

01:18:41

I think in a real sense, the Lord's Supper is kind of a flashpoint in this, because you can't have the

01:18:49

Lord's Supper unless you're together as a body. First of all,

01:18:54

Paul says, when you come together as a Church, because in a real sense, the loaf not only represents

01:19:03

Christ in his body, but it also represents the Church of which he's a part.

01:19:08

There's self -examination, the fact that you're to be reconciled to people in connection with the

01:19:16

Lord's Supper, that is absolutely blasted by anything like a virtual Lord's Supper, and that's one of the things that we wrestled with.

01:19:26

I never really have come to a satisfactory answer, because we have the

01:19:32

Lord's Supper weekly, and it pains people immensely not to have the Lord's Supper, but now to see this kind of thing happening,

01:19:40

I mean, that's not just a mutation of what the Lord's Supper is, it isn't.

01:19:45

It is not what the New Testament teaches as indispensable to the

01:19:51

Lord's Supper as a physical ordinance for a united body that does things together when it has the

01:19:59

Lord's Supper. Now, Pastor, go ahead, I'm sorry, Greg, were you saying something?

01:20:05

Yeah, just to reinforce what Pastor Fischke was saying, that our Directory for Public Worship, which of course is rooted in biblical truth about the

01:20:15

Lord's Supper, says this, because the sacraments are ordinances of Christ for the benefit of the visible

01:20:21

Church, they are to be administered only under the oversight of the government of the

01:20:26

Church. That, of course, would be impossible via the internet. Moreover, in ordinary circumstances, they are properly administered only in a gathering of the congregation for the public worship of God.

01:20:41

So Pastor Fischke and I actually have taken vows to uphold this reality, but we do so only because we believe that it is thoroughly biblical, and it impoverishes.

01:20:52

We have to be careful not to be self -righteous in judging other churches that don't follow this way, but I feel sad for other churches that are really impoverishing the power of the sacraments of baptism and the

01:21:08

Lord's Supper. Okay, Pastor Bill, I know that you wanted to address at this point of the program the importance of cultivating the counter -environment of the

01:21:20

Church. Would you like me to take one or two more questions first, or would you like to move on to your next segment?

01:21:28

No, let's hear your questions, Chris. Your listeners have been patient, and we should field their questions.

01:21:34

Okay, we have a listener all the way in the East Caribbean, St. Lucia. His name is

01:21:40

Ben, and Ben says, Chris, I have recently been moved to a new country by my vocation.

01:21:49

I have exhausted myself in searching for a sound church with a Bible -teaching pastor. This is not a good option.

01:21:57

There is not a good option anywhere near me. Am I better off watching sermons online from churches and pastors

01:22:04

I know and whom feed me in a blessed way each

01:22:10

Sunday than going to a local church service where I wince throughout the service from the music and the preaching?

01:22:18

And he has one more question after that. I know Dr. Reynolds is ready to answer that one.

01:22:27

Oh, that's so tough, I mean... Wouldn't it depend on how heretical these churches are?

01:22:33

Because if they're just not your cup of tea, there's still the Body of Christ.

01:22:40

Yes, those are tough questions. We'd have to know more about the possibilities around him, but I always encourage people that before they move or have a job change, and sometimes it might not be possible to make this kind of decision, but they ought to go and scout out a good church in that location where they're considering taking employment.

01:23:03

Because if you get transferred within your current employment, and especially in this present economic environment, it may be very difficult or impossible to make that choice.

01:23:12

But as you say, Chris, you have to assess the churches that are there available. If they're liberal and don't believe in the

01:23:20

Gospel and the Bible and salvation in Christ alone, then of course that's not an alternative.

01:23:27

But if they are not your cup of tea, I mean, I can think of churches that preach the

01:23:33

Gospel that wouldn't be my cup of tea for a number of reasons. But if I were there in that place,

01:23:38

I would be there worshiping, though I would hope not to have to make that choice.

01:23:43

But he's in a difficult position. I would amend what Dr. Reynolds said. Listening to a live stream service is not a substitute for involvement with the

01:23:56

Lord's people in a gathering. And so, yes, if it's there, if you go to a church, it's not your cup of tea, quote -unquote.

01:24:06

We need to be careful not to fall prey to the consumerist view. You know, I like Earl Gray and somebody else likes

01:24:13

Sue Long, but go to the church to be part of the solution rather than to be part of the problem.

01:24:23

Well, while our brothers were answering your question,

01:24:29

Ben, I looked up some information for one of my favorite preachers alive.

01:24:37

My favorite preacher on the planet Earth is Dr. Conrad Mbewe in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

01:24:45

But a close runner -up to him is also a friend of his, Dr. Hensworth W .C.

01:24:53

Jonas. Dr. Jonas is from the

01:24:59

East Caribbean, and he's a Reformed Baptist. I see him at every Banner of Truth conference here in Pennsylvania that I attend.

01:25:07

And he is a remarkable brother, and although I don't know how close he is to St. Lucia, he is the director of the

01:25:16

East Caribbean Baptist Association. So I'd be shocked if he didn't know, actually, it's the

01:25:23

East Caribbean Baptist Mission. So I'd be shocked if he did not know something that would be exactly what you're looking for that was reasonably close to you.

01:25:36

And you can go to this website. It is Baptistantigua .org,

01:25:43

Baptistantigua .org.

01:25:49

And if you still need further assistance, let me know, and I'll try to get in touch with Hensworth myself if need be.

01:25:57

Thank you very much, Ben. Oh, wait a minute, Ben had a second part of his question here. Let's see.

01:26:05

Am I better off? Let's see. Lastly, it is my hope that God may use me in a small way to plant a church here soon.

01:26:17

Okay, so that's something that we should be praying about. And obviously, if Hensworth does not have a recommendation for you that's near St.

01:26:27

Lucia or in St. Lucia, perhaps you could speak to him about that. So thanks again.

01:26:33

And keep me updated on that, Ben. I'd love to hear more about that. Let's see.

01:26:40

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, don't we as brothers and sisters in Christ need to be very careful about not being overly judgmental and condemnatory against our brothers who take a different approach to how they responded to this pandemic as long as they were not breaking

01:27:05

God's law or even laws of your local government? Some churches are still worshiping uninterrupted because they say that their governments have not made it a hard and fast rule officially that ban public gatherings, but they're only strong suggestions.

01:27:26

Others are very serious about taking these suggestions to heart and they have ceased from worship.

01:27:35

And the issues are complicated because sometimes we don't know for certain if these are really constitutional laws that these governors are creating.

01:27:47

So if you could please give us your opinion about the overjudgmental attitude of some in the church over how others have responded.

01:27:58

I just wrote this sentence this afternoon in the article that I'm working on, on this very topic, and I, along with, you know, some pretty strong convictions that I'm expressing,

01:28:09

I say one caution. We must be careful in this fluid and hopefully temporary situation to be generous in assessing the practices of various churches in response to this pandemic.

01:28:22

And it is hugely complicated, and even within our small presbytery here in New York and New England, we have several, a number of different ways of handling church meetings on the

01:28:38

Lord's Day. And so we need to be gracious, I think, in our assessments and not rush to judgment.

01:28:44

So I would agree with what that person says. Of course, there are elements of what

01:28:50

Pastor Shishko and I are seeking to protect, which are biblical absolutes, and those we cannot compromise, but there are many ways of implementing those absolutes in a time of crisis and challenge.

01:29:08

Yeah, and I think, I'm not quite sure, again, Bobby's question is more typical of New Yorkers.

01:29:14

It is a question and a lot of information in it. First, I think we made it quite clear we're not criticizing others for what they've done.

01:29:24

We're raising some questions about whether this is really worship as it lies, if people thought through the implications of it.

01:29:32

But we all admit we've been broadsided during this pandemic, and we're thankful that people do want to keep churches together.

01:29:40

But I think Bobby, from what he was saying, was also asking about judging whether some churches would say, well, we should be meeting on the

01:29:50

Lord's Day. The state has no right to tell us we can't, and yet others that have submitted to that.

01:29:57

And I think, Chris, probably better to deal with that. What is it, June 20th?

01:30:03

You're going to have a ruling elder, Richard Guido, on your program dealing with church -state issues.

01:30:09

I've got the date on my calendar, and I think probably Bobby should tune in on that, because Elder Guido, who's done a lot of work on this, would be the better one to answer that.

01:30:21

I think that program is May 20th on your show. That's wonderful.

01:30:27

I was just looking at pictures of my ordination in 1980 at Franklin Square Church, and Dick Guido was there in those pictures with Gale.

01:30:35

I have great respect for him, and he is very knowledgeable. So I would strongly second that idea,

01:30:44

Pastor Shishko. I do think that Romans 13 tells us very clearly that we must obey the of the civil magistrate, the leaders of our culture, even when we disagree with them, as long as they're not asking us not to worship, or they're seeking to single out the church in opposition to the gospel.

01:31:03

That's where we must be willing to risk our lives. But when it comes to the pandemic, it's difficult, because in some places

01:31:10

I've seen that there are definitely governments that are overreaching, and they're treating the church more strictly than they are businesses.

01:31:20

And I think that's quite unfair, and will need to be dealt with in the courts. But I think generally,

01:31:26

I know our own governor here in New Hampshire, I don't completely agree with all the shutdowns, but I'm trying to follow them respectfully, because I don't believe he's opposing the church.

01:31:38

I think he's trying to do the best that he can for the citizens that he's the governor of. And what we'll have to do is watch very carefully afterwards to see the aftermath in terms of civil liberty and religious liberty.

01:31:52

It also reminds me of the debate between Orwell and Huxley, that one thought that the tyranny of the state,

01:32:01

Orwell, the tyranny of the state, which he knew well from his own experience, was the main problem of modernity.

01:32:07

And then Huxley believed that the tyranny of pleasure was, and I think it's actually both, that we have to be vigilant about.

01:32:15

But God in all of this is sovereign. Amen. Well, Pastor Bill, if you would like to add to anything that you wanted to say about the cultivating of the counter -environment of the church.

01:32:29

Yeah. I think one thing, just a little P .S. on that, it is going to be important for churches, however they do it, to once we're through the pandemic, have some time to step back and assess what did we learn from the use of the technology?

01:32:47

What are the strengths? What are the limitations? I'll give you an example so you don't think that I'm negative on all of this.

01:32:53

We don't have our church building yet for the Haven. We've not been able to incorporate a prayer meeting into our weekly schedule.

01:33:01

But now we're doing that through Zoom, and we're thankful for it. It's not like meeting together, but there's a place where you can assess positive things that have come, and then negative things, and we're meant to do that.

01:33:14

Well, let me... Yeah, I'm cultivating the counter -environment of the church. Looking at this in a positive sense, this is a tremendous time to cultivate community.

01:33:26

Everyone senses that the very fact that there's so much debate and discussion about this means everyone senses that this is not completely right, this virtual worship stuff.

01:33:38

I actually have a... It was an email that I got from a person who notified me that a message that I gave years ago, information is not enough, is in print and is available through sermonaudio .com,

01:33:53

and she's actually a listener to Iron Sharpens Iron, but her comment in here was quite profound.

01:34:00

She said, I don't think this COVID -19 is changing us to want to give up meeting all together.

01:34:07

One thing I think it's doing is exposing the ignorance that is there in some of our churches or congregations.

01:34:14

Many of us miss not getting together with other humans. We just don't understand why. That is, other than we feel it.

01:34:21

We also don't really know why we meet and what's happening during corporate worship, fellowship time, or Sunday school.

01:34:28

We just do it. Preaching and teaching only give information, but true genuine biblical communication does not take place.

01:34:38

We are too busy filling ourselves with information to slow down and reflect upon, excuse me, the implications of our incarnated

01:34:47

God in the ministry of presence, which of course affects everything we do as the corporate body of Christ.

01:34:54

That's a lot to unpack, but that's precisely it. I think we need to reflect on why everybody says there's something really lacking by having a worship service during a

01:35:09

Zoom meeting. And I think one positive thing that may come is people are going to be so fed up with this home quarantining that it might drive out some of the personal quarantining of people just isolating themselves with their earbuds or whatever.

01:35:28

And I just added a couple of other things to that. There are very real needs of people.

01:35:35

Let's put corporate worship aside for a minute, but there are very real needs in people that you cannot meet at a distance.

01:35:43

You have to meet with people. We have one of our members at The Haven is a medical doctor on the front lines, and she's now having to do this telemedicine with her iPad.

01:35:53

And in one sense, it's better than nothing. But she commented last week, she said,

01:35:59

I was so glad to be able to get back and do some surgeries because she knows that everything connected with surgery involves personal communication and assessing tests and talking with people and following up.

01:36:13

And there's no true fulfillment in just doing something with information.

01:36:20

So I think that's it. And then the last I would say is this, and this is going to be a challenge. We have emphasized,

01:36:27

I have Chris, on your program many times, I've emphasized that hospitality is critical in our culture that is very fragmented and is isolated.

01:36:39

It has for its metaphor, Sherry Turkle's book, Alone Together. That's our culture. And hospitality is a way of breaking that down, of building up, getting people to trust you more, to get to know people and so on.

01:36:52

I'm concerned, I see it in ourselves. We tend to get a little bit lazy now with social isolation, it's going to be harder to come back and be doing the hospitality again, but we'll need to do it.

01:37:06

So those are just some of the things, there's many others that I think we're going to have to process once we get through this pandemic.

01:37:13

Well, we're going to go to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last breaks.

01:37:20

If you'd like to ask a question, please try to send in your email quickly because we're going to be out of time before you know it.

01:37:28

That email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:37:35

And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

01:37:43

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:37:50

Don't go away, we'll be right back with more of our guests. Possible purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise, and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:38:28

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:38:35

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

01:38:42

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

01:38:54

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

01:39:02

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

01:39:08

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Iron Works, New Hampshire, and the

01:39:14

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

01:39:22

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sulay Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

01:39:31

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

01:39:38

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

01:39:46

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

01:39:54

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

01:40:00

Church Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

01:40:05

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

01:40:14

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:40:24

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:40:34

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the

01:40:49

Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

01:40:56

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

01:41:05

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the holy scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:41:21

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for the recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

01:41:27

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:41:34

That's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:41:41

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:41:57

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

01:42:04

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:42:12

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

01:42:17

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

01:42:23

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

01:42:31

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:42:38

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

01:42:52

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

01:43:02

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

01:43:08

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

01:43:15

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878, 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:43:29

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. This is

01:43:42

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:43:48

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

01:43:57

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:44:09

Lord Jesus Christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:44:16

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:44:29

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:44:39

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:44:47

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:44:52

Sovereign Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

01:45:16

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually. Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

01:45:31

If you are a lover of the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to firstloveradio .org.

01:45:39

They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness such as Dr.

01:45:48

W. R. Downing, Dr. Peter Masters, Pastor Joe Jackowitz, Pastor Robert Gifford, Al Martin, Edward Delcor, and more.

01:45:58

firstloveradio .org also live streams my Iron Trepans Iron Radio program daily.

01:46:04

Please stick around on firstloveradio .org after Iron Trepans Iron Radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of Sovereign Grace.

01:46:15

Spread the word about firstloveradio .org. Welcome back.

01:46:28

This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final segment of our interview today with Dr. Gregory Reynolds and Pastor Bill Shishko.

01:46:37

We hope that you join us with a question before we run out of time, and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:46:46

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:46:59

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:47:05

And if you could, before we take another listener question, Dr. Greg Reynolds, if you could continue on the importance of cultivating the counter -environment of the church.

01:47:18

It's such an important subject within our larger theme today. Yes, Chris, thank you.

01:47:26

You know, that phrase counter -environment actually comes from Marshall McLuhan. My study of him back in the late 90s really brought me to see that this really is a wonderful way of describing the church.

01:47:39

He was thinking more broadly of simply creating relationships and influences that would help you to be critical of and be a good steward of the media.

01:47:49

But the church is the place where we are really called to be cultivated in the knowledge of God, whether we're in the immediate age that we're in or back in the first century.

01:48:02

And so that's why the writer of Hebrews really exhorts God's people to pay attention to the means of grace and to their mutual encouragement and says, let us consider how to stir one another up to love and good works, not neglecting them to meet together as the habit of some is, but encouraging one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

01:48:24

And so I think paying attention to the means of grace and the gathering of God's people each Lord's day is absolutely essential to cultivating those sensibilities which make us aware of how to be better stewards of everything in life, but now particularly in the midst of this very powerful influence that we know of as the media electronic environment.

01:48:48

We do have an anonymous listener who asks, if your church actually had to shut its doors permanently because of the financial devastation due to these bans on public gatherings, do you recommend any sermons that we can listen to by pastors whom you think are among the finest and most biblically faithful?

01:49:16

And I'm assuming this person is talking about as a temporary means before he can begin to visit local churches in the hopes that he would join one of them eventually.

01:49:28

Yes. Yeah, I mean, I'm somewhat perplexed.

01:49:33

I don't know where the person is, but the person should be immediately looking for another church and not allowing...

01:49:42

You can go on sermonaudio .com, for example, and get a lot of sermons along with the place,

01:49:49

Chris, that was mentioned in your advertisement previously, but that shouldn't be satisfactory.

01:49:54

The person should be... You look for a church that has a commitment to the Bible as the Word of God.

01:50:00

I mean, it used to be there were certain things you could look for. Does a church have a morning and evening service, although that's not always the case?

01:50:08

Does it have a prayer meeting? What does it say about itself? Do some investigation. What's its doctrinal statement?

01:50:14

And then visit and ask questions, but don't settle for just listening to a sermon on an outlet like sermonaudio .com.

01:50:24

Now, if you're in a position, at least for the time being, like our listener in the

01:50:30

East Caribbean who has not yet found a church anywhere near him, and hopefully Hensworth Jonas will help him, but in the meantime, do you have any of your favorites who you think would be most edifying to this individual?

01:50:48

I would say Pastor Shishko. Yes, yes, definitely. I was going to say Pastor Reynolds. How's that?

01:50:54

It's interesting. Well, I'm not preaching regularly anymore, but we do have lots of sermons on our website.

01:51:01

But, you know, it was interesting, years ago, there were some very well -known speakers that were going to speak at a conference that's maybe an hour and a half from Manchester, and we were having our

01:51:12

Reformation Day lecture, which I always gave, and I picked a topic and always look forward to doing that each

01:51:19

Reformation Day. We always had a good gathering of people, and someone said, gee, you know, you're having it at the same time that these well -known speakers are speaking at this other conference.

01:51:30

My response was, we need to pay attention to our local situation and get to know the preachers and the ministries in our local area.

01:51:40

That's where our ultimate commitment is. And so we may make fun of, you know,

01:51:45

Roman Catholics for having their, they're making their pilgrimages, but the fact is that we can also do this with the so -called famous preachers of Reformed Christendom, and I think that's a danger, though I have many preachers, but Sinclair Ferguson comes to mind, and so many others that are wonderful preachers, and I'm sure that you probably,

01:52:08

Chris, have some very good recommendations, as well as Pastor Fischko. I would add,

01:52:13

I mean, Sinclair Ferguson is the first name that comes to my mind, because it's the most, in my opinion, the finest blend of biblical scholarship, piety, outstanding communication skills, and a warmth and application.

01:52:28

Another name that comes to mind for the same reasons would be Ted Donnelly, who's a minister of the

01:52:34

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. Yeah, I had the privilege of seeing and hearing him preach at the

01:52:41

OPC of Franklin Square many years ago. Yeah, yeah. You look for faithfulness to the Word of God, you look for warm pastoral application, and also certainly a good communication ability, because preaching is about communication.

01:52:58

Okay, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, who wants to know, sorry if I tuned in too late and you already said this, but could you, in a nutshell, tell us what the best temporary substitute is for the physical gathering with your brothers and sisters in Christ in the local church building where you attend every

01:53:18

Sunday, but have been prohibited to in these recent days? I mean,

01:53:27

I'm not quite sure what that question is asking, but if it's speaking about, you know, the first thing that we had to figure out at the little church that we go to in Dover, New Hampshire, which was formerly a mission church of our

01:53:39

Manchester church, and, you know, what, is there, are we going to go on Facebook? And I counseled against that because I felt that Facebook is something,

01:53:49

I'm not on Facebook for various reasons, some of which are principal, but it would exclude people, and so we also, there's, you know, you have gotomeeting .com,

01:54:01

but you have to actually be a paying member if you're going to use any of the settings on that particular application, and so I think it's one of the reasons why so many people have gone to Zoom, but Zoom to me is just like the paper and pen and paper that John is talking about in the verse that Pastor Shishko quoted.

01:54:24

It's much, it's just not any, it doesn't replace face -to -face presence, and so we have to go with what we're able to do, and I think it's up to local leaders as to how they're going to implement some kind of Sunday meeting that will edify

01:54:42

God's people. So, Pastor Bill, I know of your aversion to the visual media for preaching and teaching and worship.

01:54:52

I'm assuming that you are recommending people listen to sermons?

01:55:00

Well, let me back up a minute. I think, here again, the Bible's our final authority.

01:55:05

You had the example in King David, when he had to leave Jerusalem, he couldn't worship what was the tabernacle at the time, and he lamented in the

01:55:17

Psalms, he lamented that he could not be with the Lord's people, and he grieved over that. He said, I used to go with the

01:55:24

Lord's people. But clearly, he was worshiping personally, and that's the nature of the

01:55:29

Psalms. I'd say that's the first thing. If there's absolutely, you know, your Robinson Crusoe on an island someplace, certainly there's personal worship.

01:55:38

The second is, as we've emphasized during the pandemic, is family worship. When the

01:55:44

Scriptures speak of the church that's in your house, there's a lot of ways you can interpret that. But at least, heads of homes should regard their families not as a church with ordained ministers and sacraments, but it's like you've gathered them together and they worship.

01:56:00

And the Lord loves the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob, because in the dwellings of Jacob, there was worship.

01:56:09

So I say that would be the second thing. If you don't, if you absolutely do not have some place that you can gather.

01:56:16

And I'm assuming for those that are single, live alone, widows, widowers, just single people in general, if they have healthy friends that they can invite over their home in small numbers, that would be something.

01:56:32

We emphasize that, Chris. We emphasize, and we know at least one of our families that actually had, they didn't violate the rule of more than 10, they observed social distancing, but they use this as an evangelistic opportunity in their own home.

01:56:48

Great. Well, Pastor Bill, did we miss anything before we go off the air today? Well, yes.

01:56:54

Dr. Reynolds is not going to toot his own horn, but I am going to toot his horn.

01:57:00

I want to remind people again of his book, The Word is Worth a Thousand Pictures, Preaching in an

01:57:06

Electronic Age. It is available on amazon .com, and there's an excellent review there by a person

01:57:14

I know very well that I would urge you to read. It will encourage you to pay,

01:57:19

I think, the rather hefty price for the book, but it's worth it. Anyone interested in this topic, this is the book to read.

01:57:27

And also I want to highlight Dr. Reynolds' excellent work as editor of Ordained Servant.

01:57:32

It's the OPC officer publication, but it gets a lot of use way beyond the

01:57:39

OPC just because it's a trusted resource. And there, go to opc .org.

01:57:45

That's the website for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, opc .org. Go to Resources, and you can subscribe.

01:57:54

For obvious reasons, I prefer the print version. You can subscribe there, opc .org,

01:58:02

Resources, and subscribe to Ordained Servant. And our hat goes off to Dr. Reynolds for his outstanding editing of that monthly volume.

01:58:11

And you might want to give it a shot to order that book through cvbbs .com, our sponsor, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:58:18

There you go. And if they don't have it in stock, I'm sure that they will do their best to get ahold of it and get it into your hands.

01:58:24

Well, I am so honored that you two took the time out of your schedules to be on the show today.

01:58:30

I look forward to you both returning. And I want to, once again, make sure that our listeners have all the information they need to get ahold of you.

01:58:40

OPC .org, I'm assuming, is the best way to get ahold of Dr. Reynolds. And The Haven in Deer Park, Long Island, where Pastor Bill Shishko is the pastor, is thehavenli .com,

01:58:54

thehavenli .com. I want to thank everybody who listened to the program today. And don't forget to mark your calendar for tomorrow when

01:59:02

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries returns to the program. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater