July 1, 2021 Show with Kenneth R. Samples on “Christianity Cross-Examined”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of July, 2020.

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I'm always thrilled by a return visit to my program from one of my oldest friends in the

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Christian faith, Kenneth R. Samples, who is senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe and author of a number of books, and today we are addressing his latest book,

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Christianity Cross -Examined, Is It Rational, Relevant, and Good? It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ken Samples.

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Chris, it's so good to talk with you and get to interact with you a little bit. I remember coming to New York, boy, 1993 or 1994 and spending time with you and your wife, having a conference there.

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The first time I visited New York City was with you and your pastor and went up to Princeton.

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I remember all that, and I surely remember your wife who was so gracious and so painful to lose her at such a young age.

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Yes, and she certainly was extremely fond of you, always referred to you, even though she knew she was mispronouncing your name, always referred to you as Ken Sampson.

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I can remember having a wonderful time of fine dining with you and fellowship at Sherry's Restaurant, which is no longer in existence, but it was a very nice French restaurant in Babylon, Long Island on the water.

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I even remember we had a window seat looking out at the Great South Bay on Long Island.

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I can even remember the first time I heard you before I met you as a panelist on the

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Bible Answer Man alongside Hank Anagraf. I remember immediately being pleasantly startled and saying, ìThereís a

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Reformed guy on the panel at the Bible Answer Man !î

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They only met one on the panel. Yes, and in not so long a period of time, they removed the one guy.

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Thatís right. Hank was not and is not now a fan of Calvinism, thatís for sure.

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I remember that was what immediately put the bug in my brain, ìWow,

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Iíve got to get this guy out to Long Island to speak at what was then

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, that later after a merger became Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

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My pastor at that time, Mike Adosh, always had an open mind and ear to my strong recommendations for guest speakers.

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In fact, I donít think he ever turned me down on any of my recommendations. Wow, thatís great. I was so glad that you came out there.

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I remember getting there late, perhaps after dinner with you, and the parking lot was filled with people standing there waiting for the door to be unlocked.

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I remember that, yes. What a blessed time that was. So, tell us about your position as a senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe.

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Yes, Reasons to Believe focuses on science faith issues. Iím kind of the oddball on the scholar team here at Reasons to Believe because Iím not a scientist.

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My background is in the study of theology and philosophy, so I kind of bring a theological orientation to it.

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I get opportunities to speak and to write, and itís a very great opportunity to talk with people about faith and about the authority of Scripture and the graciousness of God in the person of Jesus Christ.

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Amen. Well, if anybody wants more information about Reasons to Believe, go to Reasons .org.

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Now, this book that you have written, your latest, ìChristianity Crossed Examined ,î is it rational, relevant, and good?

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What are or were the compelling factors that drove you to begin writing this book, or even before that planted the seed in your mind, ìI need to get this book into the hands of believers and unbelievers alike ,î whether they are trying to communicate their faith in an effective way with their unsaved family, friends, and loved ones and acquaintances, or whether they themselves may be lost, may be outside of the realm of Christianity, or investigating the claims of various religious groups?

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What was the compelling factor, or compelling factors, plural, that made you say, ìYeah, there are other things out there.

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There are many other apologetic books that could fill the shelves of the largest library on the face of the earth, but I think

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I have something still to say on this issue that hasnít been addressed quite in this way, and let me get this into print .î

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So what were those factors? Yeah, Chris, you mentioned that back in the late 80s and into the early 90s,

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I worked at the Christian Research Institute, and in those days, I spent a lot of my time studying new religious movements.

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When I worked with Walter Martin, I worked on Catholicism and Seventh -day

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Adventism, and that was kind of controversial, because we took the position that those two church bodies were not cults like you would find with the

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Witnesses, or Jehovahís Witnesses, Mormons. That doesnít mean we gave them a clean bill of health, so to speak, but in those days,

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Chris, I would go to the university and give talks, sometimes to faculty, often to students, and in those days, in the late 80s, early 90s,

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I got mostly truth questions. That is, when Iíd give a talk, college students were interested in the question, ìDoes

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God exist? Was Jesus the son of God? Was Jesus raised from the dead?

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How can I know that Christianity is true in light of Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism ?î

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Now, moving forward, Iíve worked now at Reasons to Believe for,

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Iím working on my 25th year. I noticed about a decade or so ago that when

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I would go to the universities and colleges to give talks, the kind of questions

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I was being asked seemed to change. I still, every once in a while, theyíd ask me a truth question, but I noticed that, particularly the students, they would ask me questions like, ìWell, has

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Christianity been a good force in the world ?î They might ask me, ìHas

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Christianity been good for racial minorities ?î They would say, ìYou know,

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I donít know if the God of the Old Testament is compatible with Jesus in the

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New Testament .î And Chris, after experiencing that over a ten -year period,

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I thought to myself, you know, I think weíre seeing a shift. Weíre seeing a shift from what a philosopher might say, questions of truth, which is kind of characteristic of modernity, to a shift to what

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I would call postmodernism, which asks questions about goodness.

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And I thought to myself, you know, there are a lot of apologetic books on peopleís shelves, and I have a number of books that Iíve written that were there.

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But I did think to myself, and I do think in seeing the book, that whatís unique about it is

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I try to address both of the questions. Is Christianity rational? Is it true?

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So in that first part of the book, I address issues relating to logic, to science, to historical fact.

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But the second part of the book addresses the question of whether Christianity is good.

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And so I look at issues like, how about killing in the name of God?

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Or how about slavery? Or how about Joshuaís conquest against the

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Canaanites? So I think if there is a unique feature of the book, it is trying to bring people back to the idea that itís awfully important to know that Christianity is solidly rational.

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But given the days in which we live, with postmodern skepticism and, you know, kind of a religious pluralism,

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I think itís also important to talk about why Christianity is good and why the

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God of the Bible is loving and just. And people need to know that,

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I think. Well, the first question in the subtitle of your book is interesting.

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Is it rational? Well, there are some aspects of Christianity that to the average mind, and perhaps even rightfully to the sinner saved by grace, seem very unrational.

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The fact that Christ would actually come into this world as God in flesh, the

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God -man, and that he would suffer the most excruciating agony that a human has ever experienced in the history of executions.

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And thatís not just because he was physically nailed to a cross, but the far greater agony that no human other than he has experienced on this earth is experiencing the wrath of his own father for the perpetuation of the sins of his people.

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He would do that not only for people who would later come to love, adore, and follow him, but he did it while these same individuals were haters of him and his son.

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Some of historyís greatest heroes include some very vile and wicked and despicable people.

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We all are in some realm that, but even in a human understanding of that, there have been really evil and satanic people who have later come, by the mercy of God, to know him and love him and follow him after they receive new hearts from him.

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And even one of the chief of these that comes to mind is the Apostle Paul, who describes himself as the chief of sinners.

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He actually, when he was still a Jewish zealot, a

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Jewish Osama bin Laden of that day, rounding up men and women for execution because they loved and followed

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Christ. But it seems like an irrational thing for God to say, ìI am going to give my own son to die a gruesome death and pay the penalty of the sins of these people who hate me .î

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Doesnít that seem irrational? Iím glad you raised that, because I think itís very important.

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When you ask the question, ìIs Christianity rational ?î I think itís very important to raise the question that you have, and that is that God is infinite and eternal, and we are finite and temporal creatures.

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And God reveals mysteries to us. I mean, you mentioned explicitly the mystery of the

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Atonement. How is it that Jesus would, the second person of the

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Trinity, would take a human nature and come into the world, and through his death, somehow would make us right with God?

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Thatís mysterious. And certainly Christianity is loaded with theological mystery.

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The Trinity, the Incarnation, the Atonement, the Resurrection. I mean, even the attributes of God are very mysterious.

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What I think is interesting about it, Chris, is, you know, we are talking about God, and if it were too simple,

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I mean, if I could comprehend, if I could fully fathom the Christian God, then itís likely that God is false.

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So I think when we do ask the question, ìIs Christianity rational ?î we have to realize that, you know, the early

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Christians, not only the apostles, but the later Christians that came in the church councils and the ones that crafted these creeds that we recite in our churches and we hold as being very authoritative, the ancient

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Christians definitely, they prized two things. They prized mystery on one hand, and they prized reason on the other.

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And so while Christian truth claims are never things that we can fully comprehend or own them with our own rationality, they are nevertheless consistent with reason.

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I like to say that Christian truths go beyond human reason, but they donít do damage to human reason.

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And so we can talk about the Trinity in ways that donít defy the law of non -contradiction.

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I can present the Incarnation the way the ancient Christians did, in ways that, again, doesnít undermine the laws of logic or human reasoning.

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That never takes that kind of mystery away, but it is not contradictory.

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And so when I talk with Jehovahís Witnesses, a few weeks ago I was talking with a

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Muslim imam about Allah and the Triune God, and so it is very important.

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And of course you even see this in Scripture itself. You know, you raise a very specific point.

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There are times to modern people, probably itís been that way through the centuries, but itís certainly true now, and that is to tell them that somehow this lowly carpenter from Nazareth, through his scourging, through his crucifixion, that somehow that sets us right with God.

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Thatís a scandal to many people. Some have even called it ìcosmic child abuse .î

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Thatís exactly right. I mean, we could talk about the new atheists, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, those kind of secular lightning rods.

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You know, they would use satire and ridicule to something of that nature.

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But I still make the point that even though these are deep mysteries, and even though weíll never fully comprehend them, and even though they are offensive to modern people, they can be presented in ways that are consistent with reason and avoid irrationality unlike a lot of other religions, which

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I think fail the test of reason. Well, obviously, in this day and age that we live in, we are constantly having those in the media, those that dominate the media, are typically far leftists who hate

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Christ, even though they would never dare publicly articulate it in that way. They clearly hate the

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Christ as he is truly described and identified in the inerrant

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God -breathed scriptures, and they have elevated science as if science is a god, and as if science is always the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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In fact, itís quite astonishing when you think about how many leftists who are also rightfully opposed to the hatred of other people with different skin colors and different ethnic origins, and actually that is something thatís being contradicted today when you have leftists in favor of critical race theory, which is actually promoting the hatred of white heterosexual males.

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But those that would at least openly say, ìOh, of course, bigotry is a horrible thing ,î and yet they simultaneously promote the idea of Darwinian evolution, which was clearly racist in origin and something that even the

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Nazis used to bolster their idea that all other peoples outside of what they called the white

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Aryan race were closer, on the evolution chart, to monkeys.

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And itís mind -blowing how they could still perpetuate this theory. Perhaps itís out of ignorance, and perhaps itís just because they donít want to be ostracized by the majority, it seems, who will vilify you if you publicly disagree with Darwinianism.

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But tell us why hasnít scientific discovery made

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God unnecessary? Yeah, you touched upon a couple ideas there.

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I have to tell you, Chris, Iím surprised that Darwin has not been cancelled.

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Given his view of blacks as relating to the animal kingdom,

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I am a bit surprised. But of course, as you know and I know, people are cancelled largely for political reasons, and so there are select people that avoid it.

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You know, you write some really good points. Thereís a real difference between science and scientism.

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Science is an empirical enterprise of gaining knowledge and information and data about the world.

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It is empirical in orientation. Scientists, of course, build models and attempt to test them and see if they explain the nature of reality.

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Scientism is a philosophy. Scientism says that truth only comes through science, or the best knowledge comes through it, depending on if itís a hard or weak scientism.

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And you also mentioned a very important point, Chris, and that is the provisional nature of science.

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Scientific knowledge changes, and science goes through processes of change in that orientation.

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I think, and this is what I do in the first two chapters of the book, is

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I say, ìLook, Christianity has a very strong association with the scientific enterprise, both historically and philosophically .î

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A physicist and philosopher, himself a Catholic, he said that science was still born in the ancient world, and what he meant by that,

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Chris, was there were contributions that the Greeks and the Romans and the Mesopotamians and the

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Chinese and even the Islamic city of Babylon, they made contributions to mathematics and technology and science, but science could never be born, it could never take off and flourish.

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And Yakiís point, and this is somewhat controversial, although I think heís right on the money, that there were philosophical and worldview ideas that didnít allow science to take off.

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I mean, if the universe is Godís body, or if the universe is an illusion, speaking of Eastern mysticism, or in Islam, if Allah can just arbitrarily change his mind and do the reverse, science is going to be very, very difficult.

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But you have to have the right world to have science work. You have to have the right human beings, you have to have a congruence between them.

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So the early Christians in the 1600s, they were the founding fathers of science.

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You know, Galileo, Newton, Faraday, Pascal, almost to an individual they were

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Christian, and if they werenít Christian, they were Jewish, believing that God had created the world.

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So Christianity has a strong historical association with the emergence of science in the 17th century.

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But I go further in the second chapter to say, look, science is built on worldview ideas.

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I mean, Paul Davies is a very distinguished cosmologist and physicist. Heís probably an agnostic,

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I think that would be fair to say. But Davies has written and said, look, to do science you have to have a worldview.

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You have to begin with a worldview perspective. And I remember debating a scientist from the

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University of Fresno, which is a very academic school here on the West Coast, and the professor, his title was

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Professor of Evolution. So when he was talking, he said, ìAs a scientist, I have no belief .î

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So when I got a chance to talk, I said, ìProfessor, youíve got lots of beliefs.

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Donít you believe thereís a real world out there? Donít you believe that the world is order, that itís a pattern, it has regularities ?î

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I said, ìDonít you believe you can trust your cognitive faculties and sensory organs? Donít you believe that math and logic are reasonable ?î

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I said, ìYou have lots of beliefs, and the beliefs that build science are uniquely compatible with Christian theism .î

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I mean, these ideas that math works, that logic works, that the universe is uniform in its patterns,

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Chris, those are not things we learn from science. Those are philosophical starting points for science.

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I argue that, contrary to scientism, early science has deep roots with Christianity.

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They believed that God was rational and logical. They believed that the Creator imbued the cosmos with logic and order.

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People are made in Godís image, and therefore they can, as John Calvin said, they can hunt and gather truth.

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So Christianity has a strong association with science, both historically and philosophically.

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And Iíd add one more point, too. I think in the early 20th century, Chris, a lot of secular scientists thought, given that Darwin lived in the 19th century, and Darwin really kind of gave the scientific community a purely naturalistic explanation of the origin of human beings.

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Now, I donít think it works. I think itís deeply flawed. But the scientists in the early 20th century, they thought, ìWell, this century, weíre going to bury

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God. Weíre going to show that the world is just a brute reality.

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It doesnít need a cause. It doesnít need a Creator. Weíre going to show how all of science is going to be able to get rid of God .î

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And, of course, this was the position of Carl Sagan. It was the position, to some degree, even of Albert Einstein.

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It was the position of especially Richard Dawkins. But you know what,

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Chris? In the 20th century, what scientists discovered is a model of the universe that all matter, energy, space, and time had a singular beginning.

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And youíre taking us back to kind of these cosmological arguments. You know, anything that begins needs a cause.

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The universe began, therefore it needs a cause. Moreover, today, the idea of fine -tuning, that the universe is somehow fine -tuned to allow for the emergence of human life.

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You know, this idea, it seems like you have a control panel, and all of these dials are dialed in just right to allow for a universe to be fine -tuned, for a solar system to be fine -tuned, for Earth to be in the habitable zone.

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None of thatís controversial, Chris. All scientists believe it. The controversial question is, how do you explain it?

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In fact, we have to go to our midway break, so pick up right where you left off there.

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Very good. How do you explain it? And by the way, folks, for those of you who are not aware, the full original title of Darwinís book,

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The Origin of the Species, something a lot of people donít know, or they just donít care to admit it, is this quite startling title,

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The Origin of the Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the

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Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life.

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Just thought Iíd give you that tidbit of information about the racist Charles Darwin.

29:49

But we are going to our first station break right now. If youíd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Kenneth R. Samples, Senior Research Scholar at Reasons to Believe.

38:19

We are discussing his latest book, Christianity Cross -Examined. Is it rational, relevant and good?

38:27

And if youíd like to join us with your own question on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com

38:33

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence.

38:41

And right before the break, Ken, you were delving into the lack of response or adequate response from the anti -Christian, anti -theist world on some of the most crucial issues that involve our existence.

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Yeah, exactly right. I mean, if you, again, if you go back to the early 20th century, secular scientists thought they would find a world that has no need for God, that God was pushed out of the picture.

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But thatís not what the 20th century revealed. What the 20th century revealed was that we have a universe that is contingent and needs a cause.

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We have the parameters of the universe, the fundamental constants are dialed in just right, a little higher, a little lower, life would not be possible.

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And not only fine -tuning to the physical constants, but fine -tuning of our solar system, planet

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Earth. And we could even discuss issues like human consciousness and human exceptionalism.

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You know, human beings, human beings are not just different in degree from bipedal primates or very intelligent animals.

40:02

Human beings are different in kind. Weíre capable of engaging in mathematics and logic and philosophy.

40:11

Weíre able to build technology. Weíre spiritual creatures. We have moral compulsion and prescriptions.

40:21

All of this, I think, is not well -explained at all in a naturalistic, atheistic,

40:28

Darwinian perspective. And so what I try to do in that first chapter, Chris, is to say, ìLook,

40:34

I actually think the secular scientists did not discover what they thought they would discover.

40:41

They actually discovered that God remains vibrantly in the picture .î

40:48

And, you know, Iíll make this one more small point here, Chris. Sometimes people will say, ìWell, you know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence .î

40:59

I donít know that I agree with that. I think extraordinary things are proved in courtrooms by not -so -extraordinary eyewitness evidence and things like that.

41:09

But letís take a look at atheistic naturalism for a moment. I mean, where did reason come from?

41:15

Well, if thereís no God and no mind behind the universe, did that mean reason came from the non -rational?

41:21

Did persons come from the non -personal? Did mindful creatures come from non -mind?

41:29

That seems to me like an extraordinary claim. But with regard to the biblical point of view, itís not difficult to think that if there is a

41:39

God and he has an infinite mind, that he would create creatures that have finite minds, that are people and are capable of rationality.

41:49

So I think Christianity holds up pretty well, and I think God is still a necessary feature in understanding the nature of physical and intellectual reality.

42:02

We have a question from Chris in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

42:11

Chris says, ìI know that those who hate God and the Bible openly are a great threat to the cause of truth in the 21st century and always have been.

42:26

But I have an actual belief that those that pose as God -lovers, those that claim to be theists and even

42:37

Christians, but in their theology would reveal that they are false

42:43

Christians or charlatans or cults, pose an even greater threat to the cause of the gospel.

42:51

Now I understand that God is sovereign and nothing is going to thwart or crush his plan.

42:58

But at the same time, in an earthly sense, I believe that those who would give us lip service and claim to agree with us on many issues about the origins of the earth and humans, etc.,

43:11

but have a false gospel, pose an even greater threat. What is your guestís opinion ?î Yeah, Chris, thanks for that question.

43:18

Itís a provocative one. Itís an interesting one. Let me tackle first of all, you know, when we look at Scripture and we think about the non -Christian condition, you know, the

43:37

Bible talks about sin tends to blind people.

43:44

Paul very clearly in Romans 1 and then in Romans 2 says that all people know thereís a

43:50

God. They see, they understand, and they know. But the natural disposition of fallen human beings is to suppress the truth and unrighteousness.

44:00

Now whatís interesting, of course, is oftentimes non -Christians are not aware that they too suffer from biases and they too suffer from intellectual blindness.

44:12

I mean, Christopher Hitchens said categorically he didnít want God to exist. He said if God existed, it would be like living in North Korea.

44:21

Big Brother would be butting into your business. You could never be alone. You could never be free.

44:28

God would be crushing your freedom. Well, again, secular people tend not to be aware that there are biases and there are blind spots and they suffer from them like all of us do.

44:48

So I think there are times where secularists think itís only religious people that are kind of brainwashed.

44:56

What Iíd like to do and what I did when I was teaching philosophy is I would ask my skeptical students, ìAre you equally skeptical of your skepticism ?î

45:07

That is, I know youíre critical of Godís existence and of the truth of Christianity, but are you equally critical of your secular views?

45:17

Now, your second part of that is, I think, a very fascinating issue, and that is that there are people who make claims and they may not be sincere or people may have a view of Christianity that is not consistent with a biblical perspective that doesnít conform to classical

45:44

Christianity, if you will. I guess, Chris, where I might differ with you a little bit on that second part is, look, you know, there are real differences.

45:56

There are differences between Eastern Orthodox believers, there are differences between Roman Catholic believers, and differences even among Protestants, some

46:07

Reform, some Wesleyan. So there are these sharp differences.

46:14

But I would make this point, I think there are times where people in Christendom need to join together and stand up for life and end this

46:26

Holocaust of killing the unborn. Or Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox, even though we might have very sharp differences with each other, we might even not consider them to be brothers in Christ, there are differing perspectives on that issue.

46:46

But why couldnít we stand up for traditional marriage? That is, I believe, we live at a time where Iím not set aside these real theological differences.

47:00

I am saying, however, that Christendom can be, people in Christendom can be worldview allies.

47:08

And we can have our debates about authority, about the authority of Scripture, the authority of Church tradition, the exact relationship between grace, faith, and works, whether we should honor

47:21

Mary or devote our devotion to her and to the saints.

47:26

We can debate those. Iím afraid, however, that our culture is spinning out of control.

47:33

And I think anybody who affirms the Nicene Creed should stand up for values before our culture really moves beyond post -Christian.

47:46

So, I agree with your point, but I also think that people within Christendom sometimes have a lot in common.

47:55

We have a lot of common ground. And maybe we can do some good in culture. I agree, but I also believe that there are those on an extreme end of the spectrum regarding that that belittle the differences to a realm of unimportance.

48:18

For instance, I happen to love listening toó his name just flew out of my headó a very, very popular

48:31

Mormon conservative. And I donít know why his name has flown out of my head. Not Romney.

48:38

No, no, no, no. I wouldnít even call him a conservative, really. The political talk show host.

48:44

He has a radio show and heís Mormon. He has white hair. I canít remember his name. I donít know why.

48:50

But anyway, he is so right on the money on so many things politically, ethically, morally.

48:57

But there are evangelicals who have adopted him as a brother in Christ. And you cannot be more opposite on theology and doctrine to Christianity than Mormonism.

49:12

Youíve got three gods, yeah. Oh, even an infinite number of gods when they believe that if they are faithful Mormons they will be gods of their own planets and so on.

49:25

So, you know, there is a dangeró there is a danger of conservatives adopting their own social gospel, whereas liberals once cornered the market on the social gospel, and they rallied together on things such as feeding the poor, clothing and housing the poor, and many other things that are right and good.

49:56

They threw out what the gospel really was, and they threw out theology and doctrine as being in the highest realms of importance.

50:05

You have conservatives doing the same thing. You have conservatives who seem to care little or nothing about the gospel.

50:13

I think that would actually reveal that they are not truly regenerate if they have gone to that length of not caring about the gospel.

50:19

But they do so under the banner of Christianity. So, thatís just my two cents about that.

50:27

Yep. And I canít believe I canít remember the name of tható Youíre getting old,

50:33

Chris. Youíre getting old. But Iím sure it will come to me during the break, because we have to go to the break right now, the midway break.

50:41

Oh, it just popped in my headóGlenn Beck. Oh, yeah. Glenn Beck, I mean,

50:46

I reallyó I am so enthusiastic about things that are coming out of his mouth, and am in agreement with so much of what he says, but he is a strong proponent of perpetuating the lie that Mormonism is just another denomination of Christianity.

51:09

Yeah. And thatís a lie from the pit of hell. And he actually had a rally in Washington, D .C.

51:15

years ago where he specifically said, ìThis is not a political rally. This is a spiritual rally .î

51:24

And he was, I think, speaking over the heads of the multitudes of evangelical

51:31

Christians there who were applauding him at certain points when he was actually giving Mormon references that were,

51:37

I think, going over their heads. But anyway, we have to go to the midway break right now, folks, and please be patient with us because the midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks.

51:48

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break because Grace Life Radio has to localize geographically their programming, including

51:58

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, to Lake City, Florida. They do so by airing their own public service announcements and other local things, and we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

52:09

So please write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as you possibly can so you can more successfully and more frequently respond to our advertisers.

52:20

And sometimes that just means contacting them and thanking them for sponsoring this show.

52:26

If indeed you love this show and are grateful for the financial support this show receives that enables us to exist.

52:32

We cannot exist on the air, folks, without our advertisers. We would disappear if our advertisers canceled their advertising contracts.

52:40

So please support them in any way you can, and at the very least by thanking them. Also, send in a question to Ken Samples on Christianity Cross -Examined, his latest book.

52:53

Our email address, again, is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

53:00

We'll be right back after these messages. The boys are back in town. The boys are back in town.

53:06

The boys are back in town. The boys are back in town. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

53:11

My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia, once again for the

53:18

G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme,

53:26

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

53:35

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.

53:41

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

53:48

September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

53:58

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

54:04

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

57:06

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

57:13

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

57:19

God has designed, and He has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

57:28

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When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in His infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

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Such is the beauty of His design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

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God like the psalmist did? May God bless you, and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in His design.

57:58

Thank you. Hello, my name is

58:07

Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the

58:14

ReformRookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

58:22

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58:32

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time day or night.

58:39

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly

58:46

Reformed guests that Chris Arnson has on the show. Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

58:54

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the

58:59

ReformRookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching

59:05

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59:12

From Keach's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the

59:17

Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking Biblical truth.

59:23

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

59:33

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Ivineo and thanks for listening. Here's what

59:42

Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron radio recently.

59:48

Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time here. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

59:58

Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

01:00:05

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air. So I don't have to brag about myself.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron radio airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.

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While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com Iron Sharpens Iron As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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01:09:28

Before we return to my guest today, Kenneth R. Samples, and our discussion on his latest book, Christianity Cross -Examined, is it rational, relevant, and good?

01:09:39

We have some important announcements to make. First of all, please keep my oldest brother,

01:09:45

John, in your prayers. The bad news was that he has cancer, critical stage emphysema, and an inoperable aneurysm.

01:10:00

I also have been asking for prayer for him lately, because he had been unconscious for several days after a return trip to the hospital subsequent to a very debilitating bout with chemotherapy and radiation.

01:10:22

The glorious news is that no doubt, answer to the prayers of many in you, many of you in this audience.

01:10:36

My brother not only regained consciousness, but he is now speaking, and he has reached such a stage of recovery that the doctors are already discussing discharging him, possibly, and sending him home on Friday.

01:10:56

My dear friend, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who providentially lives in the same town as the hospital where my brother

01:11:04

John has been a patient, has been visiting him. He has had four visits with my brother, each one better than the one before.

01:11:15

He has been sharing the gospel with my brother each and every visit, with the permission of my brother.

01:11:23

The thing that is still lacking is a crystal clear demonstration and vivid evidence that my brother has truly embraced the gospel.

01:11:34

So please pray that our Lord shows mercy to my brother. He has already shown him great mercy in regard to his physical condition, sparing him once again from death.

01:11:47

He has spared my brother from death on a number of occasions. Please pray that the

01:11:52

Lord has mercy upon his soul and that he gives my brother a new heart, that I may know with certainty that my brother is on his way to meet his

01:12:02

Savior in heaven on that day when he takes his final breath here on earth. So please pray for John.

01:12:10

And also, a more recent prayer request that I have had involves another brother of mine, one much closer in age to me, my brother

01:12:23

Bob, who is 64 years of age. He just had a cancerous tumor removed from his bladder.

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He says that the cancer is out and he goes to see the doctor tomorrow to discuss next steps.

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So please join me and my brother in prayer. My brother Bob, by the way, is a born -again evangelical

01:13:05

Christian. So join me in praying for his physical condition.

01:13:13

And he has a wife and four children, one still a very young child.

01:13:22

So please, actually, I'm sorry, he has a wife and five children. His other children are adults other than the young one at home.

01:13:31

But pray for Bob. Also, folks, I hope you mark your calendars to tune in tomorrow to Iron Trumpets Iron Radio.

01:13:40

We have joining us for the very first time ever on Iron Trumpets Iron Radio, somebody that I've wanted to interview for a very long time,

01:13:48

Marvin Alasky. He is the author of over 20 books. He's an elder in the

01:13:54

Presbyterian Church in America denomination, an editor -in -chief of World Magazine, and dean of World Journalism Institute.

01:14:05

We are going to be addressing his latest book, Lament for a Father, The Journey to Understanding and Forgiveness.

01:14:14

So make sure you mark your calendars for tomorrow, Friday, July 2nd, for our interview with Marvin Alasky.

01:14:22

Also, folks, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, please, I'm urging you, go to IronTrumpetsIronRadio .com,

01:14:31

click support, then click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

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We are in urgent need of your financial help. Right now, we can't even pay the rent that is already past due on this facility where I am sitting, where my studio exists to conduct this program.

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So please help us. The coronavirus pandemic hysteria has hurt a number of people in our audience, and therefore our giving has gone down.

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01:18:01

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01:18:10

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01:18:40

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01:18:46

That's also the email address to send in a question to Ken Samples as we discuss his book,

01:18:51

Christianity Cross -Examined, Is It Rational, Relevant, and Good? That's ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

01:18:58

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least. City and state and country of residence.

01:19:05

Well, one of the aspects, one of the questions of your subtitle, Ken, is probably stemming from the most arrogant, the most prideful, the most despicable element of mankind that thinks so highly of himself or herself, so highly of their intellect and sophistication that they would dare say

01:19:38

God and Christianity are not relevant. That is the one that probably makes me the most nauseous, the most angry, and the most disgusted.

01:19:52

If you could answer that question for us, is Christianity relevant? Yeah, I appreciate that,

01:19:59

Chris. Look, a number of years ago I wrote a book comparing

01:20:05

Jesus to some of the other world's religious leaders. You interviewed me about that book.

01:20:12

People like Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, and Muhammad What I can tell you,

01:20:18

Chris, is that Christianity is absolutely relevant to the human condition.

01:20:25

You know, all of us are broken, fallen people. All of us need hope and faith and love.

01:20:35

It seems to me that Christianity speaks clearly to the human condition. Jesus comes into the world for the very purpose of redeeming us, saving us from our fallen condition, breaking the power of the devil.

01:20:55

I think that Christianity is uniquely relevant. I mean, it's even relevant in looking at other various issues.

01:21:05

The teaching that human beings are image bearers of God, that we have dignity, we have value.

01:21:14

Christianity speaks to that condition. I've always liked what

01:21:19

Pascal said, that humans are an enigma of greatness and wretchedness.

01:21:25

Greatness because of the Imago Dei. Wretchedness because of original sin or fall.

01:21:32

I think that Christianity is really the only faith that is relevant in the ancient world, the medieval world, and into the modern world.

01:21:46

I think when people say that it's not relevant, well then,

01:21:51

I guess we have to dismiss the very human condition. And so,

01:21:57

I think those kinds of questions, and it's the reason I wrote the book,

01:22:04

I think people are probably asking different questions now. That doesn't mean that this kind of post -modern subjectivism, post -truth kind of mindset is brand new.

01:22:17

I mean, even in Socrates' day, you had the Sophists who questioned whether you could have objective truth, whether you could have absolute morality.

01:22:27

But this kind of post -modern, post -truth condition, I think, has been coming for a couple hundred years now.

01:22:35

And I think we need to communicate to people not only the rational basis of Christianity, that there is good reason to believe that Christianity is true, that Jesus is the

01:22:48

Son of God, He is the Savior of the world, and that it's true.

01:22:55

But I think we have to work at communicating to people to show them that Christianity is not just any religion, that it is relevant, and it is good.

01:23:06

And so, that's what kind of shaped me to want to write this book.

01:23:12

I feel like I need to talk to people that maybe are in a different state or in a different place than maybe people have been before.

01:23:22

And we have Mike from Monroe, New York, who asks, The late

01:23:28

Greg Bonson used to say, Everyone does philosophy. It is just that few do it well.

01:23:35

Can Brother Ken please speak to the spiritual benefit and value of studying philosophy and philosophical method in pursuit of a biblical and rational faith?

01:23:48

Yeah, Mike, I appreciate that very much. I knew Greg Bonson.

01:23:54

We had a friendship, and I learned a lot. In fact,

01:23:59

I spoke at a Bonson conference a few years ago and kind of gave an introductory lecture to how to understand

01:24:05

Greg Bonson's reasoning about the transcendental argument. You can find that on the web.

01:24:11

I appreciate it, Mike. Look, I think Greg was absolutely right.

01:24:17

C .S. Lewis said something similar, that we need philosophy, if for no other reason, to answer bad philosophy.

01:24:26

And, you know, I think we clearly see this coming out of Scripture. We're told that test all things.

01:24:34

Hold on to that which is good. We're told in the

01:24:40

Book of Acts, the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians because they checked sources.

01:24:45

They would open up the Hebrew Scriptures to see if what the Apostle Paul was saying was actually consistent.

01:24:54

You know, we're told in Romans 12, too, you know, stop conforming to the zeitgeist, the spirit of the age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

01:25:07

And Paul uses the word philosophy a couple times where he says that there's philosophy that's rooted in human tradition.

01:25:17

I think philosophy is a great discipline, and I think that it was used particularly in the medieval world into the modern world as a handmaid.

01:25:32

Philosophy is a servant. It's a handmaid to theology. And I think what's great about it is it emphasizes the idea of thinking critically, thinking rationally, asking questions about the nature of reality, the nature of knowledge, the nature of goodness, value, and beauty.

01:25:54

So I see philosophy as a tool, and I think that it can be used quite skillfully to critique other worldviews and to show the uniqueness of the

01:26:08

Christian worldview. And so my old friend Greg Bonson and one of the great authors

01:26:14

T .S. Lewis agree that we need to answer.

01:26:19

In fact, I would say this, Chris. I used to think that, you know, only kind of gray -haired old philosophy professors really believed in postmodernism and post -truth.

01:26:31

You know, that was just kind of a narrow view. I no longer hold that view. I now believe that when there are bad ideas, you need to respond to them.

01:26:40

Because if you don't, the next day a whole lot of people on Main Street will start believing them.

01:26:48

By the way, I wanted to give a plug to the Bonson Project. bonsonproject .com

01:26:54

B -A -H -N -S -E -N project .com

01:27:00

I greatly value this project and those that have contributed to its existence, those who lead it, and so on.

01:27:11

And in fact, if anybody wants to listen to the interviews I've done with a number of people who are involved in the

01:27:18

Bonson Project to continue the great biblical and theological soundness of the legacy of Greg Bonson, if you typed in Bonson in the search engine at ironsharpensironradio .com

01:27:35

B -A -H -N -S -E -N all of the interviews that I've done and connected with Greg Bonson will show up.

01:27:44

By the way, thank you, Mike, in Monroe, New York. Please give us your full mailing address in Monroe, New York, so that we can have

01:27:52

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com ship out to you a free copy of Christianity Cross -Examined

01:28:01

Is It Rational, Relevant, and Good? And we thank Reasons to Believe for giving us these books that we are giving away to a limited number of listeners.

01:28:13

And also, I want to remind Chris I think I forgot to tell Chris in Suffolk County, Long Island that you've also won a copy of this book so make sure we have your full mailing address.

01:28:27

Could you actually just very briefly go into a more definitional distinction between philosophy and theology for those of our listeners who are somewhat confused about that?

01:28:43

Sure. Again, I like very much what

01:28:48

I like very much what the tradition of Augustine and Zell they talked about faith -seeking understanding and Chris, for a long time the idea is that philosophy can be seen as a tool but philosophy in and of itself has to be informed by theology.

01:29:16

You know, one of the criticisms that I have of kind of the differing apologetic systems is that some organizations may emphasize historical apologetics or another philosophical apologetics or some even literary apologetics kind of appealing to Tolkien and Lewis, etc.

01:29:42

I think that anybody who does apologetics needs to be a good theologian.

01:29:48

I think that philosophy is a great and powerful tool particularly, again, looking at the biggest issues of life emphasizing critical analysis and study.

01:30:00

And of course, philosophy simply comes from the Greek the love of wisdom answering tough questions thinking carefully about things.

01:30:11

But I see philosophy as a handmaid, a tool and I think that philosophy has to be informed well by theology and for the most part most of the great

01:30:24

Christian philosophers indeed believe that. You know, theology is the queen of the sciences theology is tells us about the very nature of God who

01:30:37

God is. It is the revelation of God in scripture and in the incarnation and of course

01:30:46

God's revelation in the Old Testament. So I like to keep them very close together

01:30:52

I often encourage people if you're going to be an apologist you can't know everything

01:30:57

I mean, I don't have a background in science so I listen very carefully to my colleagues. There are other people that you know, have areas of strength and I always try to be very careful in listening to them.

01:31:11

But it's very important that apologists be serious students of scripture.

01:31:20

And there are times that philosophy can crash and burn it can go in the wrong area.

01:31:26

But I think broadly again, relating particularly to St. Augustine I think that he saw philosophy as again the handmaid, the tool that serves theology.

01:31:39

And I like that. And I'm sure you would agree that some of the most dangerous people are people that are extremely gifted in philosophy but have a very bad theology because they in their articulate way of spinning ideas through philosophical thought if they're theologically not grounded in scripture they can be more capable and gifted at deceiving people.

01:32:12

I think that's very true. You know, ideas really I remember when I told my dad my dad was a combat soldier in the second world war he was a coal miner in West Virginia and we moved to California he was a truck mechanic and very practical, no -nonsense kind of guy and I said, dad,

01:32:32

I want to study philosophy and he asked me, how much money will you make? I said, you know,

01:32:38

I care more about the ideas but I finally convinced my dad because I said, look dad that world war you fought in that was a war about ideas fascism, communism, democracy

01:32:53

Chris, I think quite clearly the experiences we're having now in our culture they come out of the pens of people like the

01:33:02

German atheist philosopher Nietzsche they come out of Foucault, Derrida these are atheistic philosophers and that's exactly right ideas really do rule the world and that's why it's important that Christians have a solid mastery of philosophy and theology and are able to speak to these issues that are relevant today so yeah, philosophers can spin a web and that web can have disastrous results but philosophy can also be used as a tool to show that God has indeed revealed himself in Christ so I've never regretted my studies in philosophy but I keep it close to my studies in theology

01:33:56

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who says, why is it that the church has seen such radical, drastic decline over the ages from a place that they enjoyed at one time in history where they were considered extremely relevant in the world even by those who were unbelievers of course the church has always had its severe critics and opponents and mockers and scoffers but society at large at one time had such a high respect for the church that it was still viewed in some way as being extremely relevant and the source of truth and knowledge perhaps even especially in times of crisis that spanned the nation or the globe even most of the

01:34:56

Ivy League schools were founded by Christians even Christians of Puritan theology and thought and practice why is it that today we have arrived at the place where the scoffers and mockers seem to dominate the reaction to the church and it is seen as being a laughable institution with little or no relevance is this because mankind has gotten worse or the church has gotten worse in your opinion?

01:35:28

Yeah, that's a terrific question you know, I think often of Abraham Kuyper right around 1900 came to America he was of course

01:35:41

Dutch from the Netherlands Kuyper talked a lot about the distinct features of world view in fact,

01:35:49

Chris you know, conceiving of Christianity as encompassing a world view is in large measure a reformed idea and Kuyper is one of the early people to think that way he came over to Princeton and talked to the

01:36:02

American Presbyterians it's interesting however here you have this leading reformed thinker in 1900 talking about the whole world belongs to Christ and in a hundred years

01:36:17

Christianity is dead in most parts of the Netherlands you mentioned our situation here

01:36:26

I mean, a couple weeks ago I read that Princeton University again, one of the great elite schools in America deeply tied to Christianity tied to Presbyterianism that they dropped their

01:36:45

Greek and Latin requirements for a Classics program and I thought wow, what would

01:36:53

Mortimer Adler and C .S. Lewis think of something like that because they thought it was racist you're discriminating against minorities who may not have the capacity to study

01:37:05

Greek and Latin and that is in and of itself racist yeah, what you're saying is these racial minorities aren't capable so it's interesting that we have reached a place

01:37:21

I think where these elite schools have people who have all kinds of contradictory, peculiar and even immoral and even racist ideas are set forth

01:37:37

I think to try to answer that that challenging question is I think that not only has our society been undermined by ideas of subjectiveness and truth, subjectiveness and morality but I think as well the church has declined the

01:37:59

Pelican who was a early on in his life Lutheran and later in life became

01:38:05

Orthodox I know you love Yugoslav Pelican he comes up a lot I love Pelican Pelican said that the church is always more than a school but it should never be less than a school

01:38:16

Chris, I think that in many ways our churches are no longer schools and what

01:38:22

I mean by that the church is many things and it does many things well it's a place we worship it's a place we receive the sacraments it's a place we fellowship with one another it can be a hospital it can be a counseling center but it can't stop being a school we have to teach people what historic

01:38:47

Christianity teaches we have to help people to understand Scripture and to make

01:38:53

Scripture a deep part of their life and so I think that we've seen both a decay in culture and a critical breakdown

01:39:03

I think in the churches and you know I will just flat out tell you

01:39:10

I think doctrine is absolutely critical I think people need to know the doctrine of the

01:39:15

Trinity the doctrine of the Incarnation the doctrine of the Atonement the doctrines of the Resurrection we need to be able to communicate people what we believe and why we believe it and yet there have been places

01:39:30

Chris, in church history where Christianity was advancing and seemingly moving ahead and then there were other times when it was declining and seemed to be shrinking and yet the great truth that is such a distinguishing feature of theology that you and I love and that is

01:39:49

Reformed theology is the sovereignty of God that God, we are where we are and yet the

01:39:56

Lord is still in control and that's the reason why I wrote the book that I do

01:40:02

I want to challenge some of these ideas I want to speak to Christians but I also want

01:40:11

Christians to take that book and maybe give it to their skeptical friends give it to their atheistic friends and challenge these particular ideas that are so prevalent today

01:40:23

I mean, I'll tell you Chris what was it, 2015 when same -sex marriage became legal throughout the country if you would have told me that you know, 10 years ago

01:40:35

I would have said, no way but now here's the scary question what's going to happen 10 years from now?

01:40:43

where are we? and my goal is to use whatever skills and tools the

01:40:51

Lord has given me to present the faith to explain the faith to defend the faith and to challenge these ideas that are out of control in our country and even worse in parts of Europe John in Bangor, Maine asks could it be that the decline in the popularity of Calvinism over the centuries until a recent uprising in popularity has been the cause for the decline of the church being viewed as relevant the reason why

01:41:33

I'm saying this is that there is an Arminian idea even if it is unconscious that far more than being precise about theology numbers matter in regard to the number of people that you bring into the church and hopefully see them saved

01:41:53

I don't discount this as being out of an important area but that seems to overwhelm other considerations to such a degree that seeker sensitivism has become all the rage for far too long where the church modifies its teaching and its practices and its mannerisms in order to mimic the world so that they will become more appealing to the world outside them the reason why

01:42:29

I think that it could be possible this is an issue that lends itself to the church being ironically less relevant is that the outside world does not see it as having answers that they do not already possess so on one hand it might seem that the church is trying to be more relevant by adopting the world's music and tastes and sermons and behavior they are actually becoming less relevant because the world gets their answers that seem to be very close to the church's answers in their own worldly non -christian sources

01:43:09

I think that that's a very insightful concept that our listener that John in Bangor, Maine has had to say

01:43:18

John, what do you think about that? You know, I think I think that John is

01:43:25

John is right I think that you know, in the Reformed tradition Reformed people are typically known they know what they believe and they know why they they may not always be the most gracious people in the world but they know what they believe and they know why

01:43:44

I want them to practice more of that grace they talk about on a practical level but I can say that because I'm a card -carrying

01:43:55

Calvinist myself I do want to speak to that issue I think that there has been a there has been a broad -based decline in biblical principles biblical ideas

01:44:09

I don't think that theology is taken

01:44:14

I think there are many churches that have kind of moved away from standard, systematic study of theology and I don't think it's just the

01:44:26

Wesleyan, Arminian traditions I think in large measure we live at a time where our churches are rather thin they're very thin and we now live at a time when pastors need to be able to teach their congregants not only the fundamental doctrines of the faith they need to help their congregants to think through political and social

01:44:54

I mean, what do you do with critical race theory when you've got five kids and you're you know, it's expensive to send them to a parochial school or a classical charter school it seems to me that churches these days need to be kind of like the monasteries were in the

01:45:11

Middle Ages where they're preserving culture where they're continuing a biblical perspective on things and so I think

01:45:22

John has raised some very important points and you know some people think oh, doctrine, that's you know, that's kind of intellectualizing

01:45:33

Christianity it's not it's not connecting it into our you know, our deep conviction but I don't believe that at all

01:45:40

I believe that we love God with our heart and our mind and our soul we want to honor the

01:45:46

Lord we want to give everything that we have we want to be very careful in discerning in our doctrine and in our theology and we want to be people who are gracious people who are kind and reaching out to people and so John, I think you you've made a very powerful point but I don't want to I don't want to give up I don't want to I don't want to communicate to people that we stop

01:46:17

I think now is the time to demand more of ourselves and give greater commitment to our faith and to challenge these ideas and I hope and who knows when the

01:46:32

Lord will come it's always dangerous to speculate too much about that question but I want to be

01:46:40

I want the Lord to tell me when he sees me well done, good and faithful servant and I call out all of your listeners,

01:46:50

Chris to that same commitment so you've got some good listeners you've got thoughtful listeners and that partly is due to you,

01:46:58

Chris you're a thoughtful person you you know you're a good interviewer and you think about the ideas so I support

01:47:10

Iron Sharpens Iron I appreciate that brother and we have to go to our final break so if you have a question send it in now don't go away we'll be right back

01:47:27

Hello dear ones my name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnzen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron Welcome back

01:53:11

We have a listener Ken in Tulsa, Oklahoma who says

01:53:18

My friend Ken Samples raised the point that secular scientists hope to take God out of the picture but an astronomer whom

01:53:27

I heard lecture while in graduate school in New York City later acknowledged

01:53:32

God with a book God and the Astronomers His quote at the end of the book is a gem

01:53:38

For the scientist who has lived by his faith and the power of reason the story ends like a bad dream

01:53:46

He has scaled the mountains of ignorance He is about to conquer the highest peak

01:53:51

As he pulls himself over the final rock he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries and that is

01:54:02

Robert Jastrow God and the Astronomers Your audience might enjoy hearing this

01:54:09

That's Ken in Tulsa, Oklahoma Any thoughts or comments on that? Yeah, in fact

01:54:15

I start chapter one with that very quote I think it's a very gripping element and I think it illustrates the point of my first chapter and that is that the 20th century has really brought theology and the idea of God back into the picture

01:54:38

How do we explain a universe that appears to have had a beginning? How do we explain its fine -tuning?

01:54:46

How do we explain human exceptionalism? Human consciousness?

01:54:52

Even the origin of life? All of these kinds of... I love that Jastrow quote and I think it also illustrates how there has always been a historical connection between theologians and scientists

01:55:07

You have to have the right world You have to have the right -equipped human beings and a congruence between the two to have science and that's solidly a biblical idea

01:55:19

So, thank you and again, that's the quote I begin chapter one with I enjoy it, appreciate it

01:55:25

Well, the last question that you ask is, is Christianity good?

01:55:31

and it's an interesting question because I had gotten an agreement years ago an acceptance of an invitation by Christopher Hitchens the late

01:55:43

Christopher Hitchens to debate my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and he was actually on the phone with me

01:55:53

Christopher Hitchens, that is a very pleasant and gracious person very humorous person and very humble and polite not at all the persona that he often radiated in the media but, unfortunately that debate never happened because Christopher Hitchens developed esophageal cancer which eventually took his life but David Silverman at the time,

01:56:19

President of American Atheists the organization founded by Madeleine Murray O 'Hare he took up the mantle on the same theme

01:56:26

Is the New Testament evil? and it is interesting that an atheist could dare describe anything as good or evil because they really have no basis to do so but if you could comment on Christianity being good and we're going to have to have you return perhaps,

01:56:43

I think we could do a full two hours on that one question Yeah, absolutely

01:56:50

Yeah, let me speak to that You know, one of the chapters I have in the second part of the book looking at whether Christianity is good

01:56:59

I raised the question what about people killed in the name of God? and, you know, as I researched that I went back and looked very carefully at the

01:57:07

Crusades I looked at the Inquisition I looked at the Thirty Years' War the Salem Witch Trials all of these things and Chris, some of the things that struck me was number one, the new atheists often deeply exaggerate these so -called dark periods

01:57:27

I mean, there are historians today who would tell you that if the

01:57:33

Christians had not engaged in the Crusades Islam would have overrun all of Europe that it was largely a just war of defense even the

01:57:45

Inquisition which seems hard to believe anything other than kind of torture some modern historians would tell you that it was more about repentance than it was about torture but, you know, not only do they maximize the so -called sins of Christianity but they totally minimize the brutality of the 20th century produced by atheistic regimes and communism

01:58:20

I mean, there are many historians who will say that more than 100 million people perished in the 20th century under people like Stalin like Mao, like Pol Pot so that is often not talked about and you have to deal with it because communism is dialectical materialism in fact, we have to have you return,

01:58:44

Ken because we're out of time we'll spend even the whole two hours on the goodness of Christianity I want to thank everybody for listening today

01:58:53

I want to thank especially those who took the time to write and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater