November 27, 2018 Show with Daniel P. Buttafuoco, Esq. on “Consider the Evidence: A Trial Lawyer Examines Eyewitness Testimony in Defense of the Reliability of the New Testament” PLUS Roger Ellsworth on “The 12 Days of Christmas: Morning & Evening Thoughts on Immanuel: God with Us”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th of, 27th day of November 2018.

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I'm so delighted to have back on the program after a long absence, my dear friend

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Dan Buttafuoco. Dan Buttafuoco, for most of my career, has been a primary client of mine in the advertising realm.

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He was my largest advertising client for the 15 years I worked for WMCA radio.

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He has become over those years a very dear friend of mine. He is an author, a conference speaker, the founder of the

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Historical Bible Society, and the founding partner of the law firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.

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Today we're going to be addressing his new book, Consider the Evidence. A trial lawyer examines eyewitness testimony in defense of the reliability of the

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New Testament. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Daniel P.

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Buttafuoco. Well, Chris, the honor is all mine. You're a good brother. I love you and the Lord, and thanks for having me on the program, man.

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Yeah, it is conjuring up memories of the days when you used to regularly come over to the church where I was a member at that time in the 90s,

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, and you would record your commercials for WMCA radio right from our pulpit microphone.

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Yeah, with my daughter on cassette tape. That's right. And I still remember your daughter doing the ad in one take perfectly.

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One take perfectly. That's sort of how it works. She had triplets. She had three kids perfectly in one shot.

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Wow. That sort of is Kristen, how she rolls. Wow. Well, tell her I said hello. It's been a long time. In fact,

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I don't think I've seen her since the day of her wedding. Oh, that's right. That's a while. Well, God is good.

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Well, why don't you tell our listeners something about the Historical Bible Society, first of all? Well, Chris, you were actually instrumental in helping me with the

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Historical Bible Society. I started to collect rare and ancient

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Bibles about 25 years ago, sort of on a whim, and it turned out that people, when they would see these books, found such interest and curiosity in them that it would spark a conversation about the

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Bible and the Word of God and what this book was and how it came to be. My first major book was an original 1611

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King James Bible. I have a complete one in the collection. And then when I saw how this was affecting and impacting people,

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I started to collect with some purpose and started filling in the gaps of various important Bibles that sort of shaped history.

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At present, the collection of the Historical Bible Society, which is the organization we formed to own and preserve these

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Bibles, has some Bibles that are so rare, there are only two or a handful of copies in the entire world in existence of these books.

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So when Bible museums spring up, they contact us and they ask if we'll sell the collection, and of course the answer is no.

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We have our own ministry, we use it in churches, and just this last weekend I spoke to services and I laid out, you know, about 30 or 40 books and was able to expound on how we got the

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Bible, what the Word of God means, and I use these books as what I call eye candy to get people in the door, because nobody really wants to hear a lawyer.

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Or if they do want to hear a lawyer, you know, maybe it's for the wrong reason. But in fact, the pastor, when he introduced me, said, when

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I first interviewed Dan, he goes, I gotta be honest, because I was very skeptical of letting you tap the pulpit in the church.

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And you know, he said it right from the pulpit. We laughed about it. He said, but you know, after seeing what you do, and hearing the ministry, and seeing your goals here, he says,

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I'm thrilled to have you, and he gave me a wonderful introduction, and I basically spoke for like four hours on Sunday.

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So it was a great day, and that Historical Bible Society has been a great vehicle for getting people interested in the

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Word of God, and for why we believe the Bible is the Word of God. Amen. And I can say firsthand, having seen

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Dan give his presentation for the Historical Bible Society, probably around six or seven times at least,

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I can say it's absolutely fascinating. It is excellent. I never got bored, even though I saw the presentation multiple times.

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Because even though the facts were the same, obviously, you didn't change the facts of history, you did change up your presentation a bit from time to time.

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And I just heartily recommend it to anybody, whether you are a pastor, whether you are a parachurch leader, whether you are a headmaster at a school.

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I urge you to go to historicalbiblesociety .org and contact Dan, and ask him, request him to speak at your church, or school, or other function.

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It is absolutely phenomenal. In fact, I think I was at your very first presentation, which was at a

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Missouri Synod Lutheran Church that the late Fred Trinkline was pastoring on Long Island.

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That is correct. And I will tell you, first of all, your audience can feel free to contact me. I'll give my email if that's okay.

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It's D, as in Daniel, then Butterfuco, at butterfucolaw .com.

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D. Butterfuco at butterfucolaw .com, and it's very easy to reach me. I will tell you that the presentation has changed.

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I have so much material that it is never the same. You're right, it is different every time. I pray about it, and I tailor it to the congregation, to the audience.

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I've given this to, as you know, groups of Reformed pastors, which is a, you know, a very heady crowd, very intellectual crowd, and I've given it to sixth grade students, and everything in between.

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So recently, and I don't know if you even know this, I preached literally from what they would call the altar in a

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Coptic Orthodox Church on a Sunday. Right. I'm not ordained,

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I'm not Coptic, and they gave me a Sunday service from their altar, where the priests walked barefoot, and when

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I was done, they asked me to speak to their seminary students. I was like, wow,

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I'm pretty blown away by that. You know, I mean, I'm just a lawyer that God is using, and then they had me back also to speak to their youth group.

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So the presentation is varied and wide -ranging, and I don't know if you know this, but we gave it at the

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Billy Graham Library in 2016, and we have a video available of that presentation, which we professionally recorded, and which was done live at the

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Billy Graham Library in Charlotte, North Carolina. They loved the presentation, and you know, that's sort of like the good housekeeping seal of approval, if you will, because, you know,

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I always sort of wrestle with the fact that I'm a lawyer, and you know, people are very suspect of lawyers,

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I guess rightfully so in some ways, and you know, for Billy Graham's organization to offer us that opportunity was really wonderful, and we thanked them.

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We also did it at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. Wow. Well, I have been there for their Founders Conference years ago, and hopefully

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I will be able to visit there again soon. In fact, one of the other special memories

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I have of you is that the Lord used me in some way, anyway, to bring to you the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

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I can remember saying that, but this is supposed to be a secret. We're not supposed to tell anybody.

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Well, it's just a funny story, because I can remember one Christmas in the 1990s,

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I gave you R .C. Sproul's book, Grace Unknown. Oh, he rest in peace. What a good man.

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Yes, and that book is under a different title today. I think it's called What is Reform Theology, but it used to be called

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Grace Unknown. I gave it to you, and you said, are you kidding me with your Calvinist propaganda? Another piece of propaganda.

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All right, and you took it, and then you woke me up on New Year's Day, and you said,

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Chris, I haven't been able to sleep all night. I've finished this book. I read it from cover to cover. I agree with R .C.

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Sproul on everything. Well, you know, it's funny. I've grown up in a Pentecostal tradition, and yeah,

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I always, and look, I want to be really careful here, because I know that everybody agrees with these things, and I do believe it is biblical, the doctrine of sovereign grace, and I thank

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God for the fact that he chose me. I didn't choose him, but you know, these things are very complex, and they're hard for people to understand, and you know,

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God is on a completely different level than we operate on, so you know, we may think we have choice, and I guess in a way we do, but God overrides that on the highest of levels.

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He's the Supreme Court, and I tell you what, I thank you for that, Chris, because I have, my theology has become reformed, even in terms of my eschatology, and I, you know,

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I get in debates about what, people get hot over this, so I try to avoid it, because my main goal is not so much to pound a type of theology, even though I think it's correct, and I do believe it gives glory to God, and it's the right way to look at everything, but my main goal is to see people come to the saving knowledge of Christ, because that is really what is dear to the heart of Jesus, you know, we're supposed to be fishers of men, and we're supposed to spread the gospel and to do it in a way that, you know, people can really see the truth in it.

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So whatever it takes, I'll become all things to all men, that by some means I might win some.

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I'm happy to do that. So if I have to be a trial lawyer, or I have to be a Christian disguised as a trial lawyer, I'm happy to do that.

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Amen. Well, that should be the goal of every living Christian, including seminary professors in reformed seminaries, that should be their main goal, is to be a light in this dark world, and to glorify

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God, and draw lost men and women and children to Him. We also want to know a little bit about the law firm of Butterfugo and Associates.

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Well, we are a Christian firm in the sense that we, our values are thoroughly

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Christian. I am the founder of the firm. I have two partners, but I am the boss, and I've started this firm, oh my

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God, decades ago, in the 80s, and we handle personal injury and malpractice cases all over the

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United States. We have about 350 cases pending right now in the state of Washington.

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We have about 150 cases pending in New Jersey. We have about 600 cases pending in New York State, and Illinois, and Florida, and California, and even had one in Hawaii, had one in Alaska.

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We go everywhere. We have our own airplane, and we will take any good and meritorious serious injury case anywhere in the

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United States. I just settled a very big malpractice case in Iowa for a very dear

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Christian family who lost their kid to a malpractice anesthesia error, and I tell you, at the end of that case, which is really unbelievable,

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I flew down for the settlement conference. It lasted 10 hours, and at the end of that case, the doctor came in crying and trembling and asked the client for forgiveness, and said she hadn't been able to sleep since this event happened, and the mother and father forgave her, and I understand there were tears and hugs.

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We weren't allowed in the room, and the process of healing could begin for this family, and the insurance company paid us a lot of money, which was the right thing to do, because even though you can't bring the kid back, justice had to be served, and that was very important, and what they get to do with the money will probably be to advance the gospel.

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They said they were interested in money, but that's the only thing we could do for them, but I think the main thing I did for them here was to get this reconciliation in a small town in Iowa, and so we try to bring a godly perspective to litigation.

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You know, people, Christians, sometimes think it's weird that, you know, you sue or you use the legal process.

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That reflects a complete lack of understanding of what we do. We believe that the civil courts in America are just a civilized method of dispute resolution, and we bring

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God in the process, and we try to sanctify it, and we try to do things with integrity, and we've had amazing results.

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I mean, we've broken records, we've had big cases, and mainly what we do is rebuild lives, because lives get shattered by these things, so we specialize, really, in the biggest cases, because that's where the most grief and the most harm is done, and that also could justify me flying and spending two weeks somewhere if I have to, but, you know, it's a great thing.

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I love what I do. You know, people say I should be a pastor. I remember this. Years ago, it was like, you know, you have a good word, you're a good preacher, you should be a pastor, and I just know in my heart that God never wanted me to be a pastor.

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It's a great calling for those who have it. I had a lot of family members that are pastors and missionaries, but I feel like I'm serving

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God as a lawyer, and I'm sort of an anomaly to people. When they meet me, you know, in the courtroom, they expect somebody that is, you know, a lawyer.

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They expect you to have a certain impression. I don't know really what it is. They're not sure, but when they see that, I love the

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Lord, and you know, I know the Bible. I have a master's degree in theology, as you know. You know,

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I studied with Ravi Zacharias. He was my teacher. He was my client. He's a great man. I love Ravi.

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He actually wrote the foreword for my book. You know, I think people get disarmed by the fact of a lawyer who loves the

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Lord and who believes that the Bible is the Word of God. So God's been using me, and I'm just humbly going with it and see where it goes, and whatever happens, happens.

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Amen. Well, I want to read, actually, a quote from the foreword to your book by Ravi Zacharias.

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I have known Dan for almost two decades. In his book, he brings the best of his arguments and his keen mind as a lawyer to investigate the

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Bible. Whether you are a skeptic or a believer, you will find this to be an invaluable resource.

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And also, Scott Hoffman from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association says, Well, those are some powerful endorsements for Consider the

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Evidence, A Trial Lawyer Examines Eyewitness Testimony in Defense of the Reliability of the

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New Testament. I'm going to give our email address for those of our listeners who may want to ask you a question. It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Dan, as you know, there are books already available, apologetics books, that have been written with the goal of convincing people, perhaps even primarily the lost, of the reliability of the

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New Testament and also with the goal of giving Christians more ammunition to be even more ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within them.

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Why did you write Consider the Evidence, knowing this? That's a great question, Chris. You know what

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I like about that question is it gets right to the heart of it. You know, why do we need another book? I sort of wrestle with that.

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You know, one thing that trial lawyers are really good at, and this is actually my skill set, you know, I'm not a

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Bible scholar. Yes, I know a lot about the Bible. Yes, I have a master's degree in theology. Yes, I studied apologetics, but there are scholars who spend their whole lives parsing this stuff out.

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But here's the problem, okay? The scholars are arguing this stuff in the stratosphere.

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They're intellectually way above most people, and they're basically talking to each other.

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And while there's many great books out, and I've read quite a bit of them, nobody's breaking it down to the average person so that the average person can have basic arguments and understandings of why they believe what they believe.

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And here's where it comes, where I think my skill set comes into help here, very importantly.

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Trial lawyers have a specific skill set, and what we do, what I do, is that we take complex concepts like medicine and science and engineering, and in this case theology and apologetics, and we break it down in such a way so that the person of average intellectual understanding can grasp these concepts and be armed with them.

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You know, I could sound lofty, and I could talk in legalese, and they teach you when you're a trial lawyer that that's the best way to lose your audience, right?

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If no one's paying attention, and there's so many distractions in life today as it is, why would anyone want to read some gigantic tome with all this technical information, all this technical information in it?

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You know what happens? You read three pages, and it sits on the shelf. So I wrote a very readable book, something that you can fly through.

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It's sort of one giant summation, if you will, or if you want to call it a legal brief, that flows very nicely through the subject matter.

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There's 182 footnotes, so if you want to get deeper in it, you could check out the bibliography, and there's a lot more meat on it if you want.

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But I try to make it in such a way that someone can read it on the train going to work, or someone can buy it for a colleague, and say, here, read this.

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I try to keep it interesting. I try to make it flow. In fact, I actually took a page out of Rick Warren's book,

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With the Purpose Driven Life, where he said the same thing. He kept shortening the sentences, kept simplifying, and I try to do exactly that.

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Because the bottom line is, you can write a masterpiece, but if nobody reads it, or only five people read it, well, what good is it?

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So I wanted to make this readily accessible to the average Joe, if you will, and I want people to be able to read it and enjoy it, and understand the main goal of the book.

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Yes, it's good for unbelievers, but it's also good for believers to understand why you believe that the

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Bible is the Word of God. I think that's a really important question. Why do we believe the New Testament can be trustworthy?

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Why is it reliable? And there are really good, sort of like evidentiary reasons that lawyers look at.

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You know, lawyers have that unique perspective. We deal with evidence, especially trial lawyers. Why is this so believable?

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What makes this persuasive? Why can I trust it? And I cover the main point. By the way, I have a lot more material.

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I need to make some addendums, but I don't want to make the book too big. So what you have is what you have.

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Maybe there'll be a sequel. Who knows? Great. We do already have listeners coming in with questions.

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We have Mary in Cork, Ireland, who says, Good afternoon, Chris. I wonder if I should read this in an

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Irish accent. No, I better not do that. I have a question for your guest. Being an attorney barrister who is well acquainted with the seriousness of breaking the law and would have seen many cases, does it still overwhelm you at times when you meditate on the justice and mercy of God's towards condemned sinners?

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The just one becomes the justifier, while the condemned are justified, set free, and declared not guilty.

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I think it must be absolutely amazing, because it does not happen in our earthly courtrooms. Thank you for taking the time to read my question.

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Well, first of all, thank you, Mary. I love Cork. I've been there. It's a beautiful place. Wow. And yeah, it was great.

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I enjoyed it. That was about 20 years ago. Are you ever going to be giving your Historical Bible Society presentation in Cork?

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Tell Mary to invite me. Tell the pastor to invite me, and maybe we'll see. Well, you heard that, Mary. But I will say this, that I never cease to be,

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I never cease to be, to stop being overwhelmed from what God has done.

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I just never cease to have that experience, because yes, because I believe God is a

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God of justice, and I'm a man of justice, and I see justice in court, but I also know that mercy triumphs over justice, and even when

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I pray, I never ask for justice. I ask for mercy. When I go into court, I don't ask for justice.

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I pray to God. I ask to win. You know what I mean? I want to always be on the right side of that equation, and even in my dealings with others,

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I tend to be charitable. You know, sort of like the parable of the guy who was forgiven the 10 ,000 talents, and then, you know, he goes and shakes down a fellow believer for like 32 bucks.

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I never want to be that person. You know, I want to be somebody that is very generous in how

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I deal with others, because I believe that the way we treat others is the way God's going to treat us, and he's already demonstrated tremendous justice,

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I mean, mercy towards us. So yeah, I know I always think about what she's saying, and I never stop being overwhelmed by that.

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I'm overwhelmed by God every day. It's incredible what he does, but you know, when you get to justice on our planet, you know, we have to deal in very pragmatic terms, and a lot of times, we just have to get the best that we can, and I know that doesn't sit well with some people.

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You know, I have cases where, you know, we just, there are times when we just have to settle, and then there are times when you have to go to court, and you have to know that that's sort of an intuition that God gives you.

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It's what we provide to our clients. But basically, what I'm mostly here to talk about,

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I mean, of course I want to talk about the goodness of God, but I want to talk about how other people can experience that goodness.

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You know, Mary sounds like a believer already, so we'll leave that at that. Well, thank you so much,

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Mary, and it's a good thing that you are vacationing in the United States of America, because we will be able to get you a copy of Dan's book, free of charge,

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Compliments of Dan Bottifuco, just because you've written in a question today. And just to let our listeners know, we do not send books out overseas, because the cost that would start heaping up would be just too astronomical for our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who are the actual ones who send out these books to our listeners who send in questions.

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So good for you, Mary, since you're vacationing in the United States. We have Linda from Hilltop Lakes, Texas.

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On the reliability of the Bible, there are some who argue that the English Bible, and more specifically the

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King James Version, is the only reliable translation in the world, considering that the

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Reformation started with the Czechs, Huss, the Germans, Luther, and the

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French, Calvin, long before the King James even existed. It seems, on the face of it, this argument would be illogical.

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Please comment. Well, thanks for that question. James White wrote a book about this, which sort of put this whole thing,

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I think, to bed. Yeah. I read the book. There is no reason to believe that the

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King James is the only viable translation. Once you get into the underlying facts, you will find out that the

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King James, which I have a copy of, is based on that the New Testament is based on the Textus Receptus, which

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I also have a copy of, which is the 1550 printing by a guy named Stephanus, which is based on the

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Erasmus Greek translation of 1516, which I also have a copy of that original book, and that is the first Greek Bible, New Testament, ever printed in the history of the world.

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As I said, we have actual physical copies of all these original books, and I will tell you that Erasmus only had seven or eight manuscripts at his disposal when he translated that Bible, well, not translated, when he printed that Bible in the

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Greek tongue, and he did it at the risk of angering the Pope, but he sort of skated by because he was so well respected, but the

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Pope, by the same token, did not let him have access to the most important manuscript that was in existence at the time, which was the

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Codex Vaticanus, which had been in the Vatican Library since 1492, and for whatever reason, the

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Pope didn't allow Erasmus to have access to it, even though he requested it, so he had to do without it. Consequently, the

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King James version, which is a wonderful version, by the way, it's the only masterpiece of English literature ever produced by a committee.

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If you know anything about how it was produced, there were about 50 scholars, and they met at Hampton Court, and they were divided into groups of about five scholars each.

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They each translated the book, and then they circulated the books among themselves, and they revised it, and they kept doing it until they were satisfied with the process.

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The King James has a wonderful sort of rhythm to it. It was done on purpose so that you could memorize it, but the

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King James is based on seven or eight manuscripts, and since that time, which was from 1608 to 1611, when the process took place, there have been many manuscript discoveries, most notably the

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Bodmer Papyri and others, and we now have a much better understanding of what the text is like, so we have more accurate manuscripts.

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That's why I prefer the NIV, the New International Version, because it's based on better and more reliable manuscripts.

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However, having said that, you can get saved with either version. And so, the differences in these books is not that much.

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You know, not too many people speak or understand King James, which is Elizabethan English, anymore, and so that sort of is a barrier for some, and so I prefer a

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Bible that talks to you in your own language. If you're blind, I prefer a Braille Bible.

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It's really being practical. I don't think there's any magic in any one version. I think they're all anointed.

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I think God superintends all the prophecies, and I think God watches over His Word. So whatever verse you like, or whatever version you like, rather, go for it.

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I go on BibleHub .com, which I highly recommend. When I was in Bible school, my professor asked me to write a paper, and he said,

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I want you to use no less than 20 translations of the Bible. I said, are you nuts?

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I said, I didn't know 20 translations existed, right? Well, thank

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God for the Internet. I found that 20 is more than 20 on BibleHub, and I realized what he was saying.

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It became like a hologram, the Bible, at that point, because when you get multiple translations, you get more insight into the passage, and I think that all of these things have merit.

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We should use them all. We should not be limited or closed -minded when it comes to approaching the

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Word of God. I actually think the Word of God is like a prism, and it's so deep that we'll never fathom its treasures, and I think it's that way on purpose.

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You know, God is simple to the simple, and He's complex to the complex, and that's just the way God is.

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He's amazing. What can I say? Well, thank you, Linda, in Hilltop Lakes, Texas. Please make sure we have your full mailing address so that we can ship you a copy of Dan Botafuco's book that we are discussing today, and that is not only compliments of Dan Botafuco, but it's compliments of CVBBS .com,

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who is shipping that out to you absolutely free of charge at no cost to you or to Orange Herb Design Radio.

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And by the way, the next time I invite you on, Dan, when you're my guest, tell everybody that the

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NASB is your favorite translation, because they're sponsoring this show. You know what it is?

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I have an NIV that my wife gave me in the 80s, and I've got so many notations in it that my daughter said,

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Dad, when you're gone, I don't want anything else. I just want that Bible with all your notes in it.

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I'm like, fine, it's yours, babe. Well, we're gonna go to our first break, and if anybody else wants to join us on the air, do so now, because we're rapidly running out of time.

29:04

Dan can only be on with us for the first hour. The book is Consider the Evidence, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

29:12

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dan Buttafuoco. Gotta tell you, for my money,

29:20

Chris Arnson's radio program is just the best. Iron.

29:26

Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV, with Phil Johnson of Grace To You, inviting everybody to come to the

29:37

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is, it's a great conference.

29:44

I love it. And Chris Arnson was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year. It's great to see him there.

29:49

You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight to me. So tons of stuff going on, tons of great speakers, and no matter where you are in the building, you will hear

29:59

Chris Arnson's laugh. And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join

30:04

Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers—so it

30:16

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

30:25

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the Doctor of Ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.

30:31

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

30:37

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

30:43

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

30:50

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

30:58

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

31:08

New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

31:15

.nyc. Have a great day. This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

32:15

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

32:21

today. Also, check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org

32:30

forward slash podcast. That's W for world, N for news,

32:35

G for group, dot org forward slash podcast. Hi, I'm Stephan Lindblad, assistant professor of systematic theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

32:51

I accepted this call to teach at the seminary because I'm firmly convinced that the people of God in the churches of our

33:00

Lord Jesus Christ need to be firmly grounded in the truth of Holy Scripture. I'm excited to be teaching such subjects as the nature of theology and the doctrine of Scripture, and even the doctrine of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

33:16

Our churches and our people need to be well grounded in these truths. Indeed, future ministers of the gospel need to understand these truths in order to proclaim them to all of God's people.

33:29

If you want to learn more about our program, visit us online at irbsseminary .org.

33:42

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

33:47

I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

33:55

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

34:02

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan.

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All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

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Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

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Nestle All -in -28 edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

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Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

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For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to PTLBibleRebinding .com.

35:02

That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here.

35:14

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

35:20

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

35:27

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled

35:32

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

35:37

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

35:45

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

35:53

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

36:06

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

36:16

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

36:22

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

36:29

Dan Badafuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

36:37

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

36:43

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Welcome back, and if you just tuned us in,

36:51

Dan Badafuco is our guest today. For the first hour, with a half hour to go, we are discussing his book,

36:56

Consider the Evidence, A Trial Lawyer Examines Eyewitness Testimony in Defense of the

37:02

Reliability of the New Testament, with a foreword by Ravi Zacharias. If you would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

37:11

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

37:17

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private. And by the way, Dan, when

37:22

I heard James White's ad for Post Tenebrous Lux Bible Reminding, I was reminded that you gave

37:29

James, as a gift, one of his most prized possessions, the Stephanus Greek Tex, correct?

37:36

Yeah, he saw the one I had and I said, I really can't part with this, so I gave him another one and gave it to him.

37:45

But well, we'll tell you, I was pretty impressed with that goatskin turquoise binding. How do I get me one of those?

37:51

Oh, you go to the website of the Post Tenebrous Lux Bible Reminding.

37:57

I think it's ptlbiblereminding .com, I think it is. ptlbiblereminding .com.

38:03

I will tell you, my appointment cancelled, so I can stay on a little longer. I'm happy to say that. Oh, great.

38:09

We could spend a little more time together, because this is good. I love talking to you, brother. Yeah, you too, brother.

38:15

Well, we have Jenny in Montgomery, Alabama, representing Grateful Moms Everywhere, she says.

38:22

She starts off with, with a son who declared he was an atheist, agnostic at best, while he was only 10 years old.

38:30

Books such as yours will always line the shelves in my library. Thank you for your commitment to follow God's call in your life.

38:36

I'm looking forward to reading your book, and her question is, As a fellow author,

38:43

I have found that anytime I'm writing or speaking on a subject that will significantly impact the lives of men and women for good, the spiritual warfare in my own personal life intensifies.

38:55

Between being tested and tempted, I know it's imperative that we cling to the cross for both hope and strength.

39:01

That said, did you, Daniel, struggle with forces unseen as an Ephesians 6 while writing

39:07

Consider the Evidence? And if so, what is your favorite way to dodge the chaos of the evil one that he so readily provides?

39:16

Well, that's a great question. It shows a lot of wisdom, and the answer is yes. I have been attacked, and the answer is simple.

39:24

You have to pray more. It's really that, you know, immediately you feel the weight of oppression, and yeah, it's not easy, you know.

39:34

I sort of would in some way rather hide out and not be used, because you don't want to face these things, but you know, if you want to make an impact, and you want to serve the master, you sort of have to do what you have to do.

39:49

I mean, you know, yeah, it's you put yourself out there, you're on the firing line, but we ask

39:55

God for grace, and he gives more grace. So that's where I'm at with that, and that's about as much as I want to say about that, but no, it clearly is an increased attack when you step out and try to do something.

40:09

Amen. Well, thank you, Jenny, and please make sure we have your mailing address in where was that?

40:16

Montgomery, Alabama, so that cvbbs .com can ship out your free copy of Dan Badafugo's book,

40:23

Consider the Evidence. Thank you for joining us with a very personal question. We have, let's see,

40:30

Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana. I wondered if you'd ask

40:35

Mr. Badafugo if he is aware whether there is a difference in perception of the reliability of eyewitness testimony back in the

40:43

New Testament era versus today's perception of its reliability. Scientists have questioned and tested man's credibility, bias, and memory of late to provide accurate details for eyewitness testimony.

40:57

Has he found this to have only armed the modern -day Bible skeptic or the atheist all the more?

41:04

Okay, well, first of all, you have to know something about eyewitness testimony, and having been in countless trials and seen firsthand how witnesses testify, you will know first and foremost that witnesses that see the same event do not testify in the same way, because testimony is a complex interplay of someone's perception skills along with their communication and their processing skills and then their communication skills.

41:34

So testimony is very, very complex in that regard.

41:39

I think as a general rule, people were better witnesses in the first century than they are today because there are less distractions.

41:48

There were less distractions back then. Also, there was a lot less material to absorb.

41:54

There have been studies that said that in the 18th century, now we're going to the 18th century, the 1700s, that the average amount of information that a person would receive in their entire lifetime was the amount of information in a single edition of the

42:12

New York Times today. So the quantity of information that people possessed in the first century was minute compared to what we're bombarded with today.

42:24

And so what I would like to say is that the Bible, let's take the first two witnesses of the resurrection, for example, which were two women, one of whom was

42:34

Mary Magdalene at the tomb of Christ, right? Now, first of all, if you were to fabricate an account of the events of the resurrection of the

42:43

New Testament, the last people you'd ever pick to be witnesses would be women in the first century.

42:48

Why is that? Well, first of all, it was illegal for a woman to be a witness. They were not permitted to testify in court in the first century.

42:55

It was deemed that women were too uneducated. They were deemed to be property, essentially, and their testimony did not hold up in court.

43:04

But God knew what man took 2 ,000 years to find out, which is that women actually make the very best witnesses.

43:13

Because if you've ever tried a case, you see that when you put a woman on the stand, you basically have to ask one question and sit down.

43:19

You get the whole story with all the details, the colors, the angles, who was there, who wasn't there, what happened, where it went.

43:25

And when you put a man on the stand, you basically have to drag information out of him with a sledgehammer. You know, that just shows the wisdom of God in allowing witnesses to the resurrection.

43:36

Furthermore, it also points to the fact that the story wasn't fabricated, because if you were going to fabricate a story, you'd never put women as witnesses to the most important event in history.

43:47

If you were going to create a legend, you would put Pontius Pilate as the first witness to the resurrection, or Caiaphas, or Ananias, or one of the many important people in the world at that time.

43:59

And so why did it happen that way? Why did the Bible, why did the New Testament record it that way? And the answer is because that's just the way it happened.

44:05

That's exactly the way it went down. And that's sort of an indication, or what we call it, an issue of reliability.

44:11

You know, when you see how the Bible lays out, it records the good, the bad, and the ugly. You know, we have

44:17

Paul fighting with Peter over Peter being a hypocrite. We have Peter, you know, cowardly, denying

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Christ his best buddy to a servant girl in the garden, like a trembling coward.

44:32

We have all kinds of negative information recorded in the Bible, and that's because that's the way it happened.

44:37

The Bible doesn't whitewash it. We have Paul putting men and women and children, hauling them off to prison, just being just an evil, spiteful, horrible guy, and stubborn, and you know, and then you find him getting saved, and then he fights with, did he fight with Barnabas?

44:55

They fought over whether John Mark should come along. I mean, all this stuff is recorded, but it's so obviously true, the way it lays out.

45:02

Like, you couldn't fabricate this like that. There's too much detail. And even the way the narrative lays out, in Acts, for example, you see that Luke was part of the narrative.

45:11

You can see him being part of the adventure. He says, we went here, and then we went there. And where Luke uses technical terms, you can corroborate them with, you know, archaeology and other third -party sources, and you find out that it's exactly the way he described it, even in the most obscure ways.

45:29

And then when Luke's not part of the narrative, he wasn't there, he says, then they went here, and we caught up with them at such -and -such a city.

45:37

So all of that stuff points to something that's, you know, really happening in real time.

45:42

So I actually think that eyewitness testimony is very important. I think it was way more important in the first century than it is today, because today we have video equipment, but also people's memories were better then.

45:55

There was much more of an oral tradition. The human mind is an amazing thing. My daughter, most people don't do this, my daughter, she's bright, but she's not,

46:05

I don't think she's a genius. She memorized the entire book of Hebrews when she was in Christian school. Wow.

46:10

That sounds like the entire book of Hebrews she memorized. That was her assignment. I thought it was crazy, but she did it. Now, in the first century, that was commonplace for people to do that, because, again, they didn't have writing paper, they didn't have iPhones, they didn't have computers, they didn't have radios,

46:24

TVs, recording devices. So the oral tradition was very important, and it was often very accurate.

46:31

So I think that the eyewitness testimony is very reliable. In fact, Peter says, we're not followers of cleverly invented fables, but we were eyewitnesses of His Majesty John Wright and 1

46:42

John 1 1, that which we have heard, that which we have seen, that which we have handled, this we declare to you concerning the word of truth.

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You know, these people very much were part of these events. They lived with Christ for years, they ate with Him, they saw

46:57

Him in action, they saw Him calm the sea, they saw Him hear the blind, raise the dead. You know, they saw

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Him crucified, they knew it was a bad time, they were not any less, you know, put off by death than we are today.

47:10

They knew it was a big deal when Jesus was crucified, they knew it was over, and then to see Him come back to life, they were just as astonished as you or I would be if it happened today.

47:20

And then they all went to their deaths, being cross -examined to death. I have a friend who says, oh, these people were cross -examined, are you kidding?

47:27

They were cross -examined to death. I asked people a few sharp questions, and they changed their whole story.

47:32

These people were cross -examined with burning, boiling oil, burning sticks, you know, whips, chains, they were sawed in half, crucified, and none of them recanted.

47:42

I mean, to me, that's so reliable, I don't know what could be more reliable. Yeah, in fact, there's a famous saying, and of course

47:48

I'm paraphrasing it or butchering it in some way, but men will die for a lie, but they will not normally die for something they know to be a lie.

47:58

Right, because people say things like, well, you know, suicide bombers have died for what they believe, but to come back to that is they're not in a position to know the truth.

48:05

They were deceived, but nobody would willingly die for what they know is a lie, and that's exactly right.

48:13

These disciples, these apostles were part of these events. If someone was going to torture you and your family and it was all a hoax, first thing you would say is, you're right,

48:22

I made it up, let's sacrifice to the emperor and move on, you know, but that's not what they did. They went to their deaths gloriously, proclaiming we have seen the risen

48:30

Christ. To me, that's a sure sign that they're telling the truth. Thank you, Aaron.

48:35

Please give us your full mailing address in Indianapolis, Indiana, so that CVBBS .com can ship you out your free copy of Dan Buttafuoco's book,

48:43

Consider the Evidence. Thank you so much for joining us on the air with such a great question. In fact, we are dispelling the myths that many male chauvinists might harbor in their minds that women will not be interested in these kinds of subjects, because all of our questioners so far,

49:02

Dan, are women. Well, I've lived with four women for years. That's right.

49:07

So I'm a big fan of the gentler sex, as it were. You know, I think women are much more interesting than men in many ways.

49:15

They're more complicated, and I tell you what, I love having women on the jury.

49:21

I think that God knew exactly what he was doing when he created men and women and, you know, different roles, 100 % equal, but, you know, very different beings.

49:33

You know, is it time to be around with guys? And is it definitely a time to be around with women? And thank

49:39

God for the difference, as they say, viva la différence. Well, we have another lady.

49:45

In fact, this is a lady whose name I recognize. She's been a guest on this show. She's a published author, and Pepperdine University gave her some kind of a high award for her writing.

49:58

But Dr. Latane C. Scott from Albuquerque, New Mexico sent in a question, and she asks, why is the resurrection account so important in establishing the veracity of the

50:09

New Testament documents? Well, I'll just quote Paul, and it's a great question. I mean,

50:14

Paul said, essentially, well, first of all, let's start with a quote from C .S. Lewis. C .S. Lewis said, if Christianity is not true, it is of zero importance.

50:24

He said, if it is true, it is of monumental importance, or infinite importance.

50:31

The only thing it can't be is moderately important. So basically, we have to deal with this thing called truth.

50:37

And there is no reason to believe anything in life, anywhere, at any time, unless it's true.

50:43

That should be the entire basis for why you believe something in the first place.

50:48

Not because it makes you feel good, but because it's true. You wouldn't want to believe that your wife was faithful to you if it wasn't true.

50:56

You wouldn't want to believe anything if it wasn't true. It has to be that which comports with reality, which is what the definition of truth is.

51:04

Now, if truth is important, truth about God is supremely important, because it affects the state of our soul, and it affects who we are, and it affects everything.

51:13

So I might want to believe that God is such a way, but if that's not true, then my wanting it to be so is merely wishful thinking.

51:22

And we know that many people in life engage in wishful thinking, but wishful thinking doesn't cut it, really.

51:28

You have to be realistic. You have to be accurate. So I'll quote Paul. Paul said that, you know, if Christ is not risen, we are of all men most miserable.

51:41

Moreover, then, we are found to be false witnesses, because we are proclaiming the resurrection of the dead.

51:47

But his very next words are, but Christ is indeed risen. And that is the key to everything.

51:54

That's the linchpin to our faith, because let me tell you this right now. Anyone who's listening, if Christ is not risen from the dead, we have no business being

52:02

Christians. We are wasting our time. We should all go home and find something better to do. I mean,

52:07

I have better things to do, too. I mean, Chris, you're doing this whole program because you believe Christ is risen.

52:12

I wrote this book because I believe with all my heart Christ is risen. I base my life in large measure on that fact.

52:18

I base my law practice on that. If Christ is not risen, I don't care how good it feels to go to church.

52:24

I don't care how good it feels to hang out with Christians. I don't care how good it feels to try to live Christian morality.

52:29

In fact, if Christ is not risen, we are all wasting our time. We should all go home. We should all pack it in. But I will tell you,

52:35

Christ is indeed risen. Christos anesti, to which we would reply, alistos anesti,

52:41

He is indeed risen. He is risen indeed. So I will say this, that that is the... I don't know what this woman believes, but if you don't believe that Christ is risen with all your heart, you better examine that evidence and make a decision one way or another, and I wouldn't rest until you come to a clear decision on that fact, because that is what everything hangs on.

53:01

If Christ is not risen, as Paul said, we are of all men most miserable. And I agree with that.

53:06

I can't agree more. Amen. Well, having, as I said, interviewed Dr. Latane C. Scott before,

53:11

I know that certainly that she believes in the resurrection of Christ. In fact, she wrote a powerful poem on that, that I will email to you at some point,

53:21

Dan. She's quite a gifted writer and author. Well, thank you, Latane.

53:26

Make sure we have your mailing address in Albuquerque, New Mexico, so that we can ship this book out.

53:32

Actually, cvbbs .com will ship this out to you free of charge when we get your full mailing address in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

53:39

Oh, I forgot, she has a follow -up question. What is the biggest objection that non -believers have to the eyewitness accounts of the resurrection?

53:47

Well, I can't say what the biggest one is. I mean, you know, you hear a lot of lame things, like the

53:53

Bible was written by men, but I'll give you something here that I think is really important. You know, a lot of times people like to say, and so -called scholars say, that many of these writings, the 27 writings that comprise the

54:05

New Testament, were written later on, and why they like to place this stuff later.

54:11

The devil would like to place them as late as possible, because then, you know, it's easier to attack them.

54:17

But I could make a very convincing case to the average person, just based on common sense, that every single writing of the

54:23

New Testament was written before 70 A .D., and I'm going to tell you how we do that. First of all, you have to know a little something about Judaism, and you have to know a little something about the

54:32

Jewish religion. And what I will tell you is this, that the most significant facet of life in Judaism in the first century was the goings -on of the

54:42

Temple in Jerusalem. It was the epicenter of Judaism. It was the most important aspect of Jewish life.

54:48

There was not a day that sacrifices didn't go on. There were sacrifices day after day.

54:53

There were sacrifices for holidays. There were sacrifices for weddings. There were sacrifices for births.

54:59

There were sacrifices for every imaginable occasion as specified in the Tanakh, or the Old Testament.

55:05

And the entire priesthood of the Jewish people was based on this bloody, continuous sacrificing.

55:13

There were literally rivers of blood running from the Temple that was designed for that. It was something that was so important that it occurred almost continuously.

55:21

And all of Judaism centered around that. In fact, Judaism changed drastically in 70

55:27

A .D. with the destruction of the Temple. Jesus prophesied in Matthew. He said, within a generation, not one stone will be left on another.

55:36

And the disciples more or less freaked out when they heard this. They said, what? This took 46 years to build.

55:41

Are you serious? How is this going to be? And Jesus said, I'm telling you that this is going to be the way it is.

55:46

Well, sure enough, that prophecy was fulfilled in startling detail when the legions of Titus Vespasian came in, leveled the place, laid siege to Jerusalem.

55:56

It was a big, bloody mess. This time it wasn't animals. It was Jewish blood. They killed 1 .1

56:02

million people. 1 .1 million Jews were slaughtered at the point of the sword.

56:09

And this is according to Josephus, the Jewish Roman historian. And the Temple caught on fire and literally burned to the ground.

56:16

And when the gold melted, the Romans literally, they didn't want to destroy the Temple, but they had to. They pried off each stone from another in order to get the gold.

56:24

And Jesus' words were literally fulfilled. And why is that significant? Well, because it was the end of Judaism as we know it.

56:31

It was so monumental. It was such an important fact that it has to be underscored that this was literally the end of the age.

56:40

Now, I want you to now look at the New Testament. Not one, the New Testament, the entire

56:45

Bible was written by Jewish people. Every single author of the Bible was a Jew, except for Luke.

56:51

He was a doctor, but he also was almost a Jew. He was a doctor. We'll give him a Jewish status. So every single person was wrapped up in this thing called

57:02

Judaism, and nobody mentions the destruction of the Temple? Are you serious? Not only that, but the entire book of Hebrews is totally based on the fact that we don't need sacrifices anymore.

57:15

The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin, and these things were only types and shadows of that which chose to come.

57:22

And Jesus is the new and perfect sacrifice of a new and better covenant. And you would think the author might want to mention, and by the way, folks, we don't have a

57:30

Temple or an altar at this point. That's the slam -dunk argument. He never makes it.

57:36

Why does he make it? How do you miss that point? Because it hadn't happened yet. That's the only possible explanation. Not only that, in Revelation we see all this talk about eschatology and this prophetic language of destruction and judgment.

57:50

He never mentions the destruction of the Temple. Are you seriously going to date Revelation to the second century when he doesn't mention the destruction of the

57:58

Temple? How is it possible that John would not mention the destruction of the Temple? Clearly, that book had to be written before 70

58:04

A .D., and there are technical reasons based on some early church father where why some scholars try to date it later.

58:11

It depends on how you read it, and I totally disagree with it. We can get technical at some point. You'd have to take out your dictionary to understand that.

58:18

But clearly, just use common sense. This stuff was all written before 70 A .D., and if Hebrews and Revelation were the later books, we know that Acts was written before Hebrews, and we know that Luke was written before Acts because it's volume one of volume two, and we know

58:32

Mark was the first of Gospels. We're placing these writings right about the time when these guys were walking around.

58:38

It was too early for legends to develop, and the witnesses were still alive, and anyone could have contradicted it.

58:44

So when people raise these questions and say, well, you know, these were legends, or they were written later, you just have a few facts at your disposal, and just, you know, just shoot them down, put them in their place with love, and say, no, brother, you've got it wrong.

58:58

These things were written very early. We now have documents that have been redated that go back to the early first century, where we think we actually have a copy of the original

59:08

Gospel of Matthew that was found in Magdalene College. Originally, we thought it was later, but with modern dating techniques, we've now dated that to right about the time of Matthew.

59:17

It could actually be an autographer. So we have really early stuff going back to the time when these things were written, so don't let anyone tell you it's nonsense that the writings were later.

59:27

Get to the beat of it and use your brains and use common sense. Well, I must say that I do agree with you on that, and I think that we have to make our audience aware that you and I and Ken Gentry and a comparatively smaller handful of folks believe in the earlier date of the writing of the

59:49

Scriptures. It can't be any other way. I mean, there's no way they would omit that fact. In fact, to this day, at every

59:55

Jewish wedding, we remember the temple's destruction by breaking a glass before they yell

01:00:00

Mazel Tov. That's what that's all about. I have lots of Jewish friends. I've been to lots of Jewish weddings and bar mitzvahs, okay?

01:00:06

They never fail to remember that. You're telling me these Jewish writers in the first century, when this happened, they're not going to mention it?

01:00:12

It was a monumental event. It made the Twin Towers look small in comparison.

01:00:18

It was like the end of the world to that. They're not going to mention it? Oh, I totally agree with you.

01:00:24

By the way, did you say you wanted to stick around a little longer? I could stick around for another 15 minutes.

01:00:29

Okay. Well, we're going to go to our midway break right now, and when we come back, we'll return with the final several minutes with Dan Buttafuoco.

01:00:38

If you'd like to join us on the air, please email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:00:44

Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

01:00:53

Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back, right after these messages from our sponsors.

01:01:18

James White here, co -founder of Alpha Omega Ministries, an occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:01:24

I'm so delighted. My friend Chris Arnson will be heading down to Atlanta for the next G3 conference from January 17th to the 19th, where I'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme,

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01:06:25

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:06:31

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

01:06:37

It's called New Covenant Church NYC. They are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown

01:06:43

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc

01:06:50

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:06:58

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

01:07:08

New Covenant Church NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

01:07:15

.nyc. Have a great day. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

01:07:25

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

01:07:31

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:07:38

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

01:07:44

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

01:07:51

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

01:07:57

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:08:04

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states.

01:08:17

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

01:08:27

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

01:08:33

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

01:08:40

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:08:54

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

01:09:06

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

01:09:14

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

01:09:19

You need to read. I invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

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That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget, please help

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Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, to replenish that which was lost.

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He has suffered a financial crisis after going into the hospital for very serious and dangerous open heart surgery.

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Thankfully, our great physician Jesus Christ guided the surgeon and it was quite a successful operation and Mike is home recovering, but he did experience a financial setback being laid up in the hospital.

01:10:33

So please go to solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com and order as many books as you can from him to help replenish that which was lost.

01:10:44

In fact, we have another sponsor, cvbbs .com, as you know, who sends out all of our books that our listeners win at no charge to us or to them.

01:10:54

Well, you can order all of Solid Ground Christian Books titles from cvbbs .com as well. So you would be killing two birds with one stone and helping both of our advertisers by going to cvbbs .com.

01:11:04

After, you go to solid -ground -books .com and make your long list of books that you want to give away for Christmas gifts and other reasons, and then you go to cvbbs .com

01:11:14

and order them. And we thank both Solid Ground Christian Books and cvbbs .com for being faithful advertisers and sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:11:22

I just have a quick reminder that the next Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor's Luncheon is going to be,

01:11:28

God willing, on Thursday, January 3rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:11:36

Our guest speaker is Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. This is absolutely free of charge.

01:11:44

Every single pastor that attends, or man in leadership that attends, will receive probably at least two heavy sacks of free books that nearly every major Christian publisher in the

01:11:56

United States and the United Kingdom donate every year so that all of these men who come to the annual

01:12:02

Iron Sharpens Iron Christmas Luncheon, which is January 3rd, a little after Christmas, will be taking home with them.

01:12:11

And this was all started by my beloved late wife, Julie, in the 1990s. And I am looking forward to having many, many more of these events in the future.

01:12:21

So just keep that on your calendar for Thursday, January 3rd. And send me an email if you'd like to come to chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:12:29

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Everything is absolutely free of charge for men in ministry leadership who attend.

01:12:35

Also, Dr. Tony Costa will be speaking at the Enola First Church of God that Friday, Saturday, and Sunday following the luncheon.

01:12:43

That's January 4th through the 6th. He will be speaking on the most dangerous threats to the church in North America.

01:12:49

That's Friday, January 4th through Sunday, January 6th at the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, pastored by my dear friend

01:12:58

Pastor George Jensen. For more details, you can call the Enola First Church of God at 717 -732 -4253, 717 -732 -4253, or go to enolacog .com,

01:13:11

e -n -o -l -a -c -o -g .com. And finally, folks, please remember that if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear, please go to irontreppanzirenradio .com,

01:13:21

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01:13:28

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01:13:38

Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Irontreppanzirenradio. Those two things are commands of God.

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click support, then click, click to donate now. You can also send in a check the old -fashioned way to the address that will appear on your screen when you click support at irontreppanzirenradio .com.

01:14:07

If you do not have a church home where you are a member, please email me and put, I need a church home in the subject line.

01:14:13

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I can help you find a church. I have already helped find a number of people in the

01:14:22

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01:14:30

and put advertising in the subject line and we will help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe in Irontreppanzirenradio.

01:14:39

And we'll be giving other announcements after Dan Buttafuoco concludes his part of the interview today.

01:14:45

We are discussing his book Consider the Evidence. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:14:53

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com and as always please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

01:15:02

USA. And we have, let's see here, we have

01:15:08

Jennifer, another Jennifer, this is our second Jennifer who's sent in a question.

01:15:13

Dan, and I just had it in front of me, oh here it is, nope that's not, oh here it is.

01:15:20

Jennifer from Shawnee, Kansas asks, as a Christian and a lawyer, how do you decide what to do biblically in some of your cases?

01:15:33

Well that's sort of a general question, but I mean obviously, well let's start with, you have to understand my practice.

01:15:43

My practice, I only take the cases that I want to take. I don't take any case.

01:15:49

So that answers a lot of it right there. And of course you know you could always be fooled and end up taking a case that turns out not to be what you thought it was.

01:16:00

But you know we operate with the facts, so we operate with reality, and so you know we would never do anything that, well

01:16:08

I shouldn't say never, we're not perfect, but we would not knowingly or purposefully try to do anything that conflicts with our values, you know, because our reputation is more important than one case.

01:16:22

Having said that, you know, we don't want to be held to an impossible standard, that's where grace comes in.

01:16:27

We are lawyers, we're advocates for our clients, and you know sometimes we do the best for what we have.

01:16:33

So I don't see a conflict with being a lawyer and being a Christian. You know,

01:16:39

I think that's based on an assumption, which is a misassumption that you have to do things that you don't believe in.

01:16:48

You don't, you know, you don't have to do anything that you don't believe in. You should just treat a case with integrity, go where the evidence takes you, which is why

01:16:57

I wrote this book this way, by the way. Consider the evidence, because at every trial, we start out every trial by saying to the jury, ladies and gentlemen, the only thing you should consider in this case is the evidence.

01:17:10

You know, not your prejudices, not the color of the plaintiff, or the color of the defendant, or the race, because justice is blind, not what you'd like to see happen, not what, you know, anybody thinks should, in your family should happen, but the evidence.

01:17:26

You must consider only the evidence, and that's my approach to life. That's my approach to theology.

01:17:32

That's my approach to the Word of God. Let's look at the evidence. So if we take a case, we take a case that we think the evidence supports us, and a lot of times we take a case,

01:17:43

I just got a case where a guy is probably going to lose his foot from an accident and malpractice, and you know,

01:17:50

I said, look, I can't tell you if I'm going to take this case, so I look at the medical records, but I will look at the records, and you know, we'll look and see if they dropped the ball somewhere, if they should have given you antibiotics before the infection developed, and you know, if that's the case, we'll take the case, because we can't win it otherwise.

01:18:08

Why would I ever take a case that I can't win? You know, I'm pretty practical. I don't get paid unless I win.

01:18:14

We get paid only if we win. So there's also financial consideration. So yeah, you know,

01:18:20

I don't see a problem with being a lawyer and being a Christian. I think that's sort of a misconception as to what lawyers do.

01:18:28

You know, I guess if you look at, you know, some things on TV, you know, a lawyer is a hired gun for some point of view, but that's not how we run our practice.

01:18:37

I mean, I decide what comes in the door, and we take meritorious cases, and most of the time

01:18:43

I find it's the opposite. I find that I'm fighting for my clients who are right, and the other side, the insurance companies are throwing up needless roadblocks and trying to lie and cheat and steal from what they should be paying.

01:18:57

You know, that's the biggest frustration is that, you know, they have advertising on their side. They tell you, you know, with all their advertising how great they are, how honest they are.

01:19:05

And then, you know, I mean, I had a case where an insurance company offered $20 ,000 to settle, and we took it to trial and got $3 .5

01:19:12

million. So, I mean, you know, that's a big difference. If insurance companies did what was right, you wouldn't need lawyers.

01:19:19

Let's put it that way. Yes, I have heard many nightmare stories, nightmarish stories from people whose insurance companies bailed out on them and basically robbed them of all the money that they had been paying for all those years prior to their...

01:19:36

Let me say something. As tempting as it is to talk about me and my practice and my success in court, and believe me, that's very tempting,

01:19:44

I'd really rather talk about the book, and here's why. I want everyone to know, I want your listeners to know that this book that I produced is not a money -making venture.

01:19:53

We don't expect to make any money from this book. The purpose of this book, Consider the

01:19:58

Evidence, is to get this into the hands of Christians and even unbelievers who are sincerely seeking the truth and will consider the evidence.

01:20:07

You know, you talked earlier about how you were able to sort of explain to me Reformed Theology, and I was open -minded enough to consider the evidence, right?

01:20:17

That's all we can ask of people. You know, people, for whatever reason, believe whatever they want these days, and it's a big deal if you can get them to consider the evidence.

01:20:26

I want to urge people to really consider using this as a tool. I know churches that are using it for their study groups, because apologetics is something that I really want to pound.

01:20:38

I think it's not used enough today. You know, if you go to churches today, and maybe your listeners are not in this group, but I find that we have a feel -good

01:20:46

Christianity that is based primarily on emotion and upon, you know, some kind of misguided notion of what love and And I think that what needs to happen, because the church is so weak and powerless, what needs to happen is we need to raise up a crop of people who are adamant, convinced, sold -out believers, who know that we have the evidence on our side.

01:21:14

I want to see people respond to this evidence the way I respond in court when I'm representing a client that I know is right.

01:21:21

When I know I have a good case, I become a fierce advocate. And I want Christians, Christians need to be fierce advocates for the truth of the gospel.

01:21:29

The culture is deteriorating at an alarming rate. And the problem, the reason it's deteriorating at an alarming rate is not because of right -wing politics or left -wing politics or who's in office.

01:21:39

That's not the problem. The problem is the underlying assumptions of morality and truth in this culture.

01:21:47

And we have discarded the Bible, which is our anchor, which is our mooring. And it's a firm foundation.

01:21:53

And as that foundation is being torn out from under us, we are seeing problems that are inevitable.

01:21:59

And it's been said that, you know, signs of an unjust society is the proliferation of laws.

01:22:05

We have so many laws, we don't even know the ones we're breaking and not breaking. So what I want to encourage people to do is get back to the

01:22:11

Bible. If we can get Christians back to the Bible, where Christians can actually start reading the

01:22:16

Bible, trusting the Bible, knowing the Bible, knowing why the Bible is the Bible, and being able to defend

01:22:23

Scripture as inerrant and as being reliable, I think we'll see a major change. So that's why

01:22:28

I'm pushing this. I believe I would make a lot more money if I were to get off your show and start giving some attention to my clients, right?

01:22:36

But the point is not to make money. I've made a good living, okay? The point is to get the word out there and get this tool into the hands of people.

01:22:45

I want to see people get this book and hand it out. I want to see this book being given to unbelievers, for people to read on the train.

01:22:53

We made it cheap. We made it a paperback on purpose. You know, it was my first full -length book.

01:22:59

It would be nice to have a hardcover and say, look, I look what I made. But that's not what this is about. It's, I made it a paperback.

01:23:05

We made it readable. We made it simple. We packaged it in a bite -sized way. Consider the evidence so that people can read it and that people can have their faith, you know, reinforced.

01:23:17

You know, the Bible says that our faith is as precious as pure gold. Now, that was said for a reason.

01:23:22

The Word of God says that for a reason. There's nothing more important than your faith. It's more important than your works, as all your listeners should know, because we are,

01:23:31

God is a faith -based economy, if you will. Right? That's, if you want to be crude, that's the currency with God.

01:23:37

It's faith. You know, without faith, it is impossible to please God. So when faith is undermined, you know, bad stuff happens.

01:23:44

And so we want to encourage faith. We want people to exercise faith. We want to build faith.

01:23:51

We want to plant faith. And that's what this book is trying to do. Look, you know, only God can change someone's heart.

01:23:57

I understand that, right? It takes the Holy Spirit to change a heart. But this book is designed to remove objections to the gospel so that people can consider the evidence.

01:24:07

And so that's what I want to pound more than anything before I go. And I do have to go, because my dear wife is waiting for me to take her out to dinner.

01:24:17

But I did want to tell you that, because I think that's really important. Well, I really appreciate that,

01:24:23

Dan. And I would want to discuss with you very soon my spring version of the

01:24:31

Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon. I'd like to speak with you about being my keynote speaker and give your

01:24:39

Historical Bible Society presentation sometime in the spring when I have my next pastor's luncheon after the one that's coming up in January.

01:24:48

Well, that's very kind, Chris. You know, I love you. I love your listeners. I love the body of Christ.

01:24:53

You know, I love people generally. I just enjoy being a lawyer. I enjoy preaching in churches.

01:25:00

I enjoy expounding on the truth. And I'm sold out to this. I'm convinced that God knew exactly what he was doing when he gave us the

01:25:08

New Testament. And it's written exactly the way it should be written. And that he even carefully watched the translation process.

01:25:15

And yes, I know there are some weak translations. I get it. I'm not trying to whitewash that.

01:25:21

It's under the rug. But I think that Christians really have to know why we believe what we believe.

01:25:26

You know, I go into churches. I start pretty much every sermon saying this. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for having me in your church.

01:25:33

You know it's getting really bad out there when God is using lawyers, trial lawyers to preach the gospel. And I usually get the predictable laugh.

01:25:42

And then I say, how many people believe the Bible is the word of God? And I get a show of hands. And it's almost unanimous, you know.

01:25:48

And then I say, how many people know why you believe that? And then I get crickets. And that should not be so.

01:25:54

So if I could say anything important to your listeners, I want to first of all encourage you to just continue to trust the word of God.

01:26:01

I want to encourage you to not only get my book, but to go on the web and do your own research.

01:26:07

And maybe write your own book, all right? Maybe write your own essays or emails to people. Use some of these arguments.

01:26:13

They're not new arguments. I'm not claiming I invented this. I may have a few new insights here and there, but I'm not arrogant to say that, you know, this is new.

01:26:21

There's nothing new under the sun. We stand on the shoulders of giants. What I just did is put it in a readable form for people.

01:26:28

And I just hope it blesses the church, and blesses the kingdom, and blesses your listeners. And I just want to say that in parting.

01:26:34

God bless you all, and Merry Christmas. And if you want to get a hold of Dan, the website for the Historical Bible Society is historicalbiblesociety .org.

01:26:44

Historicalbiblesociety .org. You can also email me, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:26:49

And by the way, Dan, I was right. The Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebinding website is ptlbiblerebinding .com.

01:26:57

ptlbiblerebinding .com if you want to contact them. They have something rebounding. I always use that. That's for sure. We have lots of rare books that some could be rebound.

01:27:04

And again, if anyone needs to reach me, it's dbuttafuoco at buttafuocolaw .com.

01:27:11

And I'm happy to engage with anybody. God bless you all. Amen. Well, have a blessed Christmas if I don't speak to you before then, brother.

01:27:18

All right. I wish you the best. All right. And don't go away, folks, because we are going to be joined by Jim Holmes, who's standing in today for Roger Ellsworth, who is sick.

01:27:30

We are going to be discussing Roger's book, The Twelve Days of Christmas, Morning and Evening Thoughts on Immanuel.

01:27:36

God with us. And if you'd like to join us on the air with an email with a question for Jim Holmes, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:27:46

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

01:27:56

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

01:28:03

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

01:28:09

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

01:28:15

It's called New Covenant Church NYC. They are a reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

01:28:21

Manhattan. You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

01:28:28

.nyc. They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

01:28:36

If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

01:28:46

New Covenant Church NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

01:28:53

.nyc. Have a great day. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

01:29:12

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:29:21

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:29:29

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:29:43

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all the above.

01:29:50

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:29:57

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:30:06

That's liyfc .org. Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225

01:30:16

Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

01:30:23

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

01:30:29

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

01:30:37

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

01:30:43

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:30:49

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

01:30:57

Or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org. That's lynnbrookbaptist .org. Hello, I'm Dr.

01:31:02

Kerry Kimbrell, Senior Pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you who listen to Chris Arnson's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program will join

01:31:12

Chris and me at the Deep South Founders Conference Thursday, January 24th through Saturday, January 26th here in Laurel.

01:31:21

If you love God's Word and love to hear it powerfully preached, I can assure you that you will not be disappointed.

01:31:27

Our speakers at the Deep South Founders Conference this year include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw, and our keynote speaker all the way from Zambia, Dr.

01:31:39

Conrad Mbewe, who has received the nickname The Spurgeon of Africa, and I for one believe it's a very accurate description of Brother Conrad.

01:31:49

For more details, go to deepsouthfounders .com. That's deepsouthfounders .com.

01:31:57

I look forward to giving a big Mississippi welcome to many Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners

01:32:03

January 24th through January 26th. Thank you. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am

01:32:12

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

01:32:19

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

01:32:25

Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

01:32:32

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

01:32:40

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

01:32:47

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:32:59

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

01:33:05

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

01:33:17

TV program entitled Resting in Grace. You can find us at providencebaptistchurchma .org,

01:33:23

that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

01:33:31

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:33:41

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:33:49

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

01:33:57

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

01:34:02

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

01:34:15

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

01:34:28

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

01:34:41

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.

01:34:49

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Radio. And you can also call

01:34:54

CVBBS .com at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231,

01:35:00

Monday through Friday from 10 a .m. to 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time. Mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio and purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise and you'll receive free shipping on your entire order.

01:35:13

You'll also receive absolutely free of charge the book Always Reforming by David Engelsma and the

01:35:21

CVBBS .com Christmas sale is currently underway. You will receive 10 % off everything that they have in their inventory at CVBBS .com.

01:35:33

In fact, CVBBS .com is intricately involved in this book that we are discussing now,

01:35:41

The Twelve Days of Christmas, Morning and Evening Thoughts on Immanuel God with us by Roger Ellsworth.

01:35:49

And standing in for Roger Ellsworth today is Jim Holmes because of the fact that Roger has unexpectedly come down with some kind of an illness, probably a cold or something.

01:36:02

But we have Jim Holmes who is editor and publishing consultant with Great Writing Publications.

01:36:12

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, Jim Holmes. Hey Chris.

01:36:19

Hi. Thank you. That was a very kind introduction. Oh, my pleasure, brother. Well, tell us about this book,

01:36:25

The Twelve Days of Christmas, that we want all of our listeners to get a hold of before Christmas Day, especially.

01:36:34

The Christmas season has actually already begun, I would imagine that you would say that. And why don't you tell us about The Twelve Days of Christmas.

01:36:43

Most people that I know probably who celebrate Christmas know of Christmas Eve and Christmas Day.

01:36:51

The only place that they've ever heard of The Twelve Days of Christmas is from the very famous song,

01:36:57

The Christmas Carol. Can you tell us about The Twelve Days of Christmas? Sure, Chris.

01:37:03

Well, I am certainly not an expert in any of these things, but I love the title, the concept of The Twelve Days of Christmas, because,

01:37:14

I guess, probably because of the song. Everybody knows the song. But let me backtrack a little bit and go way back to about,

01:37:22

I think it was 1999 or so, when I was living in England. And you can tell that from my accent, it's not a typical

01:37:29

Southern American accent. I was living in England and working for a publisher that took on a book for publication by Roger Ellsworth, which was called

01:37:38

The Thirty -One Days of Christmas. And I guess that first got the idea going.

01:37:44

And in fact, that book sold through very, very well in Great Britain for just that year. And then, for whatever reason, it actually just went out of print.

01:37:54

And I always remembered this book and just how effective it was just to share the gospel over a series of 31 days in the month of December.

01:38:05

And because I've gotten to know Roger a little bit over the years, in fact, I guess I first heard of Roger in about 1982 or something like that, when

01:38:12

I first got one of his books. And that's quite a long time ago. But anyway, long story short,

01:38:20

I knew of this book, The Thirty -One Days of Christmas, but I thought also, with it not being in print, it would be nice to get maybe some of the content into print but not as long as 31 days.

01:38:32

And so I reached out to Roger and said, Hey, what's up with the book? Is it still in print? He said, No. I reached out to the old publisher and said,

01:38:40

What's going on with the book? Do you have a plan to bring it back into print? And they said, No, not really.

01:38:45

If you want to do something with it, you're welcome to do that. And so Roger and I discussed this over the phone that we had some ideas.

01:38:53

And we basically took some of his sermons that were in the original

01:38:59

Thirty -One Day book and selected, in fact, it was the ones that we felt were the most pertinent.

01:39:07

And we split them into readings that were effectively one for the morning and one for the evening, therefore giving us a total of 12 days.

01:39:17

And the idea was that anybody who would be reading the book would be getting intact from the

01:39:23

Word of God both in the morning and in the evening, and in a focused way dealing with the Lord Jesus Christ, who is

01:39:29

Emmanuel, God with us, which is why, therefore, the subtitle, and perhaps in many ways more important than the actual title,

01:39:37

Morning and Evening Thoughts on Emmanuel, God with Us. So that, in essence, is how the book came about.

01:39:44

And we started this off a couple of years ago. I think it was three years ago we first launched it. And we were very, very intentional to make it a very kind of easy -to -read book, which would be written in short sections.

01:39:56

And the aim is twofold, Chris. One, it's intended to help the hearts and minds of believers to focus on the wonder of God actually becoming a human being.

01:40:06

And then secondly, to encourage unbelievers to come in faith and repentance to Christ. Amen. And by the way,

01:40:15

I just want to tell our listeners something about the author so that you will have an idea of who wrote this book,

01:40:22

Roger Ellsworth. Roger Ellsworth's name is not unfamiliar to many in the

01:40:30

Reformed community. And he has also written for Banner of Truth and has been well -known, perhaps even more specifically amongst

01:40:40

Reformed Baptists, for quite a number of years. But I want to read something about Roger, which is actually on the

01:40:51

Banner of Truth website. It says here, well,

01:40:58

I have to enlarge this because I'm going blind. See if I can enlarge this. And before I do that,

01:41:06

I'm going to give our email address. It's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. If anybody has a question that they'd like to ask of Jim Holmes about this book,

01:41:17

The 12 Days of Christmas, that's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:41:23

After coming to the knowledge of Christ at an early age, Roger Ellsworth began preaching at age 11 and pastoring at age 16.

01:41:32

He has served as pastor of churches in Illinois, Kansas, and Missouri. He is currently living in Jackson, Tennessee, and he is the retired pastor of Parkview Baptist Church there.

01:41:44

He is the author of 47 books, including Come Down, Lord, Standing for God, The Story of Elijah, and Is There an

01:41:52

Answer? published by the Banner of Truth Trust. He is also a regular contributor to Evangelical Times and Grace Tracks magazines.

01:42:02

He served for two years as president of the Illinois Baptist State Association and for 10 years as trustee of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, for two of those years which he was the chairman of the board.

01:42:17

He and his wife Sylvia have two sons, Tim and Marty. Tim is the news and media relations director for Union University in Jackson, Tennessee.

01:42:25

Marty is the pastor of Emmaus Road Baptist Church in Whittington, Illinois, and Roger and Sylvia have three grandchildren,

01:42:32

Daniel, Emily, and Noah. Just to give our listeners an idea about this author,

01:42:39

Roger Ellsworth, who could not be with us today, but we already have a listener waiting to have his question asked.

01:42:47

We have C .J. in Long Island, New York, who says, What is a good way to respond to not only the cults who think that it is wicked to celebrate a day like Christmas, but also even to a smaller number of our own

01:43:03

Reformed brethren? There are some of us, as you know, who do not believe that we should celebrate

01:43:10

Christmas, not only because of the pagan origins of the holiday, but also because of the Roman Catholic origins, and they believe it is a violation of Scripture to add such a holiday to the practice of Christian worship when it is not recorded in the

01:43:25

Scripture. How do you respond to people who say something like that? Well, that's a good question that's come in from the listener, and I think it's really in two parts.

01:43:35

The first part, obviously, is to do with how do we respond to the cults? And, obviously, people who are caught up in a cult need to be lovingly, gently, and graciously,

01:43:45

I underscore graciously, confronted with the reality that God became a man, and that happened in the

01:43:52

Incarnation, and the weight of Scripture is so heavy, and yet the minds of unbelievers got blinded.

01:43:59

And so I believe that it's important very, very carefully to engage with people who are caught in cults, and perhaps persistently also, got to be careful, obviously, not to cost, like the

01:44:09

Lord Jesus said, not to cost our pearls to fill swine, but I believe that we can be persistent with people who are in error, and to encourage them.

01:44:18

And I think we need maybe to clear away some misconceptions that we, as Reformed believers, are not making a big deal out of the actual holiday of Christmas.

01:44:27

We're making a big deal out of the fact that Jesus is God, and that He became a man, fully a man, without sin, and experienced all the same kinds of things that we, as ordinary human beings, experience.

01:44:40

And now in His resurrected, exalted state, He's a wonderful high priest for us.

01:44:46

And so that's just part of the whole package of the Gospel. So if that's of any help,

01:44:52

I would certainly emphasize that to anybody caught in a cult, we have to be confronting them gently, lovingly, and firmly on the whole fact that Jesus is

01:45:02

God. So I guess that's part one of the answer.

01:45:08

The second question is, I guess, a question that is one that many of us in Reformed circles have kind of wrestled with.

01:45:15

What do we do with Christmas, with all the kind of commercialism that goes along with it, and the fact that nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to celebrate an actual date or event of Christmas.

01:45:27

But hey, where does the Gospel start in that sense? It starts, in many people's minds, with the birth of Jesus.

01:45:35

And how did that happen? Well, He was born as a virgin, and born as the

01:45:41

Gospels tell us, and as the Apostle Paul reminds us in Galatians in the fullness of time, that He was sent by God.

01:45:49

And so we've got a lot to talk about with respect to Christmas. No, we're not talking about trinkets and utensils, but we are talking about the fact that God became a man, and let us worship

01:46:00

Him. Amen. And what I have said, especially to those friends of mine, and in this day and age it's truly a minority, but there are some theologically

01:46:13

Reformed Christians who are opposed to the celebration of Christmas or other man -made traditions like that.

01:46:21

I have said that I don't think that there is anything wrong with conquering something that has pagan origins in the name of Christ and transforming it.

01:46:33

Unless you are actually participating in an idolatrous act, I don't think that there's anything wrong with taking something that was once pagan and making it something that is a useful tool to proclaim

01:46:47

Jesus Christ. In fact, I can remember as a new Christian, I was sitting at home in my living room watching a

01:46:56

Christmas special that was hosted by Neil Diamond, and I remember I was getting very upset because I was listening to somebody who was not known to be a

01:47:07

Christian singing all these Christmas carols, and I was saying, he has no business singing about these things.

01:47:14

But then after I was listening to this for a while, it dawned on me the miracle of what was happening, that once a year,

01:47:22

God and His sovereignty even has the pagans singing praise to His birth, and even using the

01:47:29

Scripture in some of their songs. So I think it's quite remarkable that God and His sovereignty has ordained such a thing.

01:47:36

Yeah, absolutely. And hey, you know what, you were talking a little earlier on, or I had an earlier reference to Spurgeon, and of course

01:47:43

Spurgeon is the patron saint of all Reformed Baptists, at least I think he is. Yes, he is. And Spurgeon himself, as far as I know, had a reasonably consistent approach as far as Christmas was concerned.

01:47:56

He never made a big deal of it, but he used it in the propagation of the Gospel. Yeah, praise

01:48:02

God. Well, thank you C .J., and by the way C .J., make sure you give us your full mailing address because you have won a free copy of the 12

01:48:10

Days of Christmas Morning and Evening Thoughts on Immanuel God with us. Let's see, we have an anonymous listener who asks, what is the best way to help bring cheer and comfort to those during Christmas when it may be the most painful of all days because of the fact that they have lost precious loved ones close to them, either in death, divorce, or for other reasons?

01:48:37

Yeah, that's a tender question, isn't it Chris? And to the anonymous listener, let me just say that my heart goes out to people who are in a situation like that where there's an empty seat, or empty seats, where there was somebody maybe in the military or perhaps after a terminal illness, maybe a child was lost, and that is just very, very painful.

01:49:01

And yet there is, the Scripture says that there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother, and that is our

01:49:07

Lord Jesus Christ. And He is a faithful friend and shepherd and priest to us.

01:49:13

And we can only encourage people that He, who Himself was a man of sorrows, is able to minister to us in our need.

01:49:22

And maybe that sounds in one sense a little bit of a pious kind of platitude when we think of other people who are celebrating

01:49:29

Christmas with full seats around their table and without missing anybody. And yet at the same time, the world does go on.

01:49:38

But even as the world goes on, God's grace superabounds in our circumstances. Let us be looking to Him, who is the head of the

01:49:45

Church and who is the dispenser of all enabling grace, to find our comfort and our strength in Him. Jesus wept when

01:49:52

Lazarus died, and that gives me great encouragement to know that my loved ones, that I can find in Christ, a friend to me even in my grief.

01:50:02

Praise God. And I can say as a widower that this day continues to be a bittersweet day.

01:50:12

I love Christmas. I love rejoicing with fellow believers and even sharing the good news of the

01:50:19

Gospel and the reason for the birth of Christ with my lost family, friends, and loved ones.

01:50:25

But it is a sad time having lost my wife, my precious wife, who is in eternity with Christ.

01:50:31

Who went home to be with the Lord in 2011. But I can tell you how much it has meant to me when brothers and sisters in Christ, and even some non -Christian folks who are friends, have invited me over their homes to share the holidays with them.

01:50:50

And I would strongly urge anybody listening to make room at your table and make room in your home to invite people over who you know have lost loved ones or a loved one during this time.

01:51:06

Because it can be a deeply devastatingly depressing time for some people in various degrees of intensity, especially if it was a recent loss.

01:51:17

So in fact my wife went home to be with the Lord 10 days before Christmas in 2011.

01:51:25

So I just urge you to do that, brothers and sisters, especially if you have a home where you have festivities going on during the season.

01:51:36

In fact, even if you don't, you can invite people out to dinner at a restaurant or whatever you can do to help make this a brighter time for those experiencing sadness.

01:51:48

Yeah, amen. There's always room for an extra chair around the table, right? Amen. In fact, there is a chapter in this book,

01:51:57

Christmas for the Sorrowful. That's it? Yeah. Now, the very first chapter in the book,

01:52:06

The Christmas Curiosity of the Angels. What can you say about that? It's very interesting,

01:52:13

Chris, how many people, and especially unbelievers, are fascinated by the idea of angels.

01:52:20

And so what Roger does in this exposition is simply just to focus on what it was like for the angels to, for the first time, to see

01:52:29

God. And he introduces the angels, obviously, through the shepherds still outside of Bethlehem.

01:52:36

And he just takes readers by the hand and gives them a sense of what it must have been like, even as a shepherd and as an angel, to be involved in that whole account, in that whole aspect of the

01:52:49

Incarnation taking place, and the joy in heaven as a result of the fact of the birth of Messiah.

01:52:58

Praise God. Let's see, here we have another listener,

01:53:06

Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Ronald says,

01:53:12

One objection that many Christians have to Christmas is that it has become a commercialized event that really totally eclipses the birth of Christ, the event that we are supposed to be celebrating.

01:53:29

How do you overcome that type of objection when brothers and sisters in Christ will bring that up as a reason to avoid the holiday?

01:53:41

Yeah, I don't know that there's really an easy answer to that other than the fact that the world will go on.

01:53:46

The world will continue to overwhelm us and to eclipse us. But that does not change the reality of the

01:53:54

Incarnation of Christ, and of the fact that we may rejoice in the Incarnation of Christ.

01:54:01

And as much as the Apostle Paul said to remember Jesus Christ from the dead, we're also to remember him having been born as a man.

01:54:09

That God became a man, as we are men and women, and entered into the world to live a life of perfect and active obedience to all of God's laws.

01:54:19

And then, obviously, in the Passion and in his crucifixion, to die as if he were a sinner.

01:54:26

Not that he was a sinner at all, but with the imputation of our sins. So there could have been no work of Calvary without, first of all, the work of Bethlehem, so to speak.

01:54:39

So let the world go on in its own way. We're not going to change that. We're not going to reform the world at that point.

01:54:46

But we can, and we still have the opportunity to celebrate. And I think, and I know my good friend

01:54:51

Roger would underscore this, that there is a sense of goodwill at Christmastime, especially here in the

01:54:57

United States, that we can use to engage with our unconverted friends and neighbors and relatives and workmates and schoolmates.

01:55:05

We can engage with them to say, my friend, listen, there's a whole lot of nonsense going on with Father Christmas and tinfoil and loud music and tone and lights and all that, which has not anything really to do with Christmas.

01:55:18

But let me tell you, let me tell you really what the message of Christmas is, that God became a man.

01:55:24

And that is very interesting where this book comes into very good use, because it is such a small book, but it's easy to see, to be able to be given away to somebody.

01:55:33

It's not like you're giving away like a 200 -page book on a large format. This is a small book, which is small enough to fit into your purse if you're a lady or into your jacket pocket if you're a man.

01:55:44

Yes, in fact, let me just take the opportunity to really urge churches, pastors and deacons and those who are involved in purchasing books that you give away, perhaps in your church lobby or the narthex, as it's commonly called, you can even put this book or booklet into many track racks.

01:56:07

I would urge you to buy a case or more of these books that you can, if your church is financially blessed enough, to give them away.

01:56:16

And if not, of course, you can sell them in your bookstores. But I would buy these in high quantities, because they are inexpensive enough and small enough where they could bless a lot of people during this

01:56:27

Christmas season. And I just wanted to say you could go to cvbbs .com to do that. cvbbs .com,

01:56:33

sorry about that. And I hope anybody, or should I say, I hope nobody is viewing that as a commercialization.

01:56:41

Well, I was just going to say that Todd and Patty are doing a great work at CVBBS. The first trip

01:56:47

I ever came to America within a couple of days, I met Todd and just maintained a friendship with him over the years.

01:56:53

And I really commend to your listeners the work of CVBBS. They're doing a great work.

01:57:00

Yes, they are dear friends and dear Christian brother and sister in Christ, and I thank

01:57:05

God for them. We have another anonymous listener who asks, there is a conflict in my household on whether to teach our grandchildren about the fairy tale of Santa Claus.

01:57:21

Do you think that it is appropriate for a Christian to basically, when it boils down to it, lie to little children about the existence of Santa Claus?

01:57:30

Or can we tell the story of Santa to little children as a fairy tale and let them know that it is nothing more than that?

01:57:40

Yeah, you know, as a kid I was devastated having been brought up on the lie that there was such a jolly person as Santa Claus, and I was really upset.

01:57:49

And I would far rather have been told that small people believe in Santa Claus, this man, this jolly man dressed in red with white hair and a white beard, he comes and gives presents.

01:58:00

A lot of people believe in him, but it's not true. But guess what? We'll put some gifts on your bed or under the tree or whatever, and Santa Claus will give the best of both worlds.

01:58:12

Great, and of course even Christians tell their kids fairy tales and read them storybooks that are about fictitious characters, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

01:58:24

But I think that some Christians, and even of course mainly

01:58:29

I should say, non -Christians blatantly lie to their children as if this is a real character who is sneaking into their homes at night with toys.

01:58:39

If you could, for a minute, just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about the 12

01:58:45

Days of Christmas book. Morning and evening thoughts on Immanuel God with us. Yeah, thanks

01:58:52

Chris for the opportunity to share that. It's a book that Roger and I really just felt people really need to be able to get hold of and to be able to share with people, not only with unbelievers but with believers as well, because believers need the gospel, and the gospel is replete.

01:59:08

In each one of these readings there is an emphasis on the work and on the person of Jesus, and I'll tell you this, anybody who reads this, whether or not he or she is a believer or an unbeliever, is going to be led graciously through the narrative of Christmas, through the eyes, through the lens of Scripture, through the eyes of various individuals in Scripture, and they're going to come away with a sense of, this is the

01:59:32

God whom I must worship. Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift. Amen, and you can get the booklet or book from cvbbs .com,

01:59:41

cvbbs .com. Thank you so much Jim for standing in for Roger Ellsworth, and I hope that all of you who are listening always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater