Is Jesus Prophesied in the OT?, Part 1

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You're very welcome here to join us for this evening's debates, I say not debates but debates because we have two debates this evening. I'm the pastor here, Mike Gilbert-Smith, the pastor here of Twine Home Baptist Church, the church that meets here in this building, and you're very welcome to be here this evening.

This evening's presentation is part of a series of debates that have been happening over the last few days which are designed for both Christians and Muslims to come together and to have an opportunity not only to present their ideas as understood in their faiths but also to ask one another questions and to cross-examine one another.

My belief and the belief of many that the true toleration takes place not when we pretend that we have no differences but when we seek to understand those differences and seek to hear one another clearly, and it is my prayer that that will be happening this evening and that we will therefore be able to understand each other's positions and have honest conversation about those.

There are two questions that are going to be looked at this evening in the two debates. The first question is, is Jesus prophesied in the Old Testament? Is Jesus prophesied in the Old Testament? And the second topic is, is Muhammad prophesied in the Bible, that is in the Old and New Testaments?

In each debate, each speaker will be given 20 minutes to give their opening statement, followed by 15 minutes to rebut one another's opening statements, and then a 10 minute cross-examination and then a 7 and a half minute closing statement.

We will have a 10 minute break between the two debates. To argue from the Muslim position is on my left, Sheikh Shabir Ali, you're very welcome here. Thank you for coming to speak with us this evening.

Mr. Ali holds a BA in Religious Studies from Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, with a specialization in Biblical Literature, and an MA in Religious Studies from the University of Toronto, with a specialization in Quranic Exegesis.

And he's now in his fourth year of PhD studies in Quranic Exegesis at the University of Toronto. He's the president of the Information and Da 'wah Centre International in Toronto, where he functions as an imam, and he travels internationally to represent Islam in public lectures and interfaith dialogues.

He explains Islam on weekly television programs, particularly one called Let the Quran Speak, and past episodes of this can be seen on his website, it's www .shbirally .com. Arguing for the Christian position is Dr. James White, thank you so much for joining us this evening.

Dr. White is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona, in the United States. He's the author of more than 20 books, a professor, an accomplished debater, and an elder of Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is the final debate in the series of debates that have been taking place. If you want a CD or DVD of any of the debates, then you can contact the site that's producing those at www .ministrytomuslims .com.

It would be a great time now to take out your mobile phones and to ensure they're switched, not just on to silent if at all possible, because that will interfere with the PA system, but actually switched off.

Restrooms are located at the back, if you go out and then turn right, you'll find the ladies, if you go out and then turn left, you'll find the gents. The fire exits, there's a fire exit here, or if you go out of that door and turn left, there's a fire exit, or if you go out of that door and carry straight on, there's a fire exit.

It's now my privilege to welcome our first speaker, Dr. James White.

Why This Debate Comes First: Jesus in the Old Testament

It is indeed a privilege to be with you this evening. I wish I had more time to greet everyone, but we have a lot to do this evening. I would like to thank Shabir Ali for once again debating me. We've debated twice before, and I'm very much looking forward to this evening, but it is going to be a very, very challenging evening.

We're sort of crammed in here. I hope that you are ready to listen, and I hope that you are ready to follow along, because both of us have much to say, but not a whole lot of time in which to say it. So, why this debate this evening?

Shabir Ali has insisted that we must address whether Jesus is prophesied in the Tanakh, the Torah, the Nevi 'im, and the Ketuvim, before we address whether Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible. And I assume this is so that a consistent hermeneutic can be established, and surely, of course, that is quite relevant and very useful.

But really, there is no question for the Muslim that Jesus is, in fact, the Jewish Messiah. The Qur 'an is very clear in this matter. You will notice it says, Behold, the angel said, O Mary, Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him.

His name will be Christ Jesus. Of course, that is the term for Messiah, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the hereafter, and of the company of those nearest to Allah. In fact, we find out the Arabic term for Messiah is used repeatedly in the Qur 'an.

It appears nearly a dozen times in that text. It is used alone, simply as the Messiah, for example, in Surah 572. It is even, interestingly enough, put on the lips of the Jews in Surah 4, 157, an actual text that Shabir and I have debated in Seattle, in the United States.

So it must be asked, if Jesus is not prophesied in the Old Testament, then I have to ask, how could the Jews have known he was the Messiah? The Qur 'an says he was, so there must have been a way for the Jews to recognize him as such, yes?

Well, what would that way be? Further, Muslim scholars recognize the existence of prophecies about Jesus. Mahmoud M. Ayyub quotes Arazi as saying, Furthermore, since the Torah contains prophecies concerning the coming of Jesus, then neither his coming nor his law would be contrary to the Torah, end quote.

So I must ask, Shabir Ali, this evening, Arazi says the Torah contains prophecies concerning the coming of Jesus, please identify what these prophecies might be. Now, in regards to the nature of prophecy, prophecy in scripture has many aspects, only one of which necessitates a future fulfillment.

The prophets were first and foremost messengers with a word for their people of their day from God. When prophets spoke of future fulfillments, those prophecies could have immediate fulfillments that could be tested by their hearers, as we see, for example, even in Deuteronomy chapter 18.

But they could also have fulfillments that were much greater than even within their own lifetimes. They weren't just limited to a prophecy of their own lifetime. Now, the earliest Christian conviction, very, very clearly, was that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament scriptures.

In Luke 24, 44, after his resurrection, Jesus said to the disciples, These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the Psalms, must be fulfilled.

So here is a very part of the resurrection narrative, is the fulfillment of the entirety of the canon of what we call the Old Testament, the Tanakh, the law of Moses, the prophets, and the Psalms. This is a part of the Christian belief.

Surely we cannot even quote all the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled in the time we have this evening. If I started reading them, 20 minutes would not be enough to even read all of them. Hence, I will have to focus upon key prophecies that are the most relevant to the Christian-Muslim dialogue.

The first and greatest one to deal with, of course, is Deuteronomy chapter 18. The key to correctly handling Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 15 through 19, is the phrase, From amongst your brethren. From amongst your brethren.

It appears, for example, in verse 2 of chapter 18. Speaking of the Levites, they shall have no inheritance among their brothers. The Lord is their inheritance, as He promised them. Now, this is speaking about the Levites.

And clearly, among their brothers means among the 12 tribes of Israel, as verse 5 makes plain. Quote, For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord.

Clearly, from among your brothers and out of all your tribes refers to the same thing. Israelites, not anyone outside the specific 12 tribes of Israel, compare the same usage in the preceding chapter of Deuteronomy chapter 17, where we see, You may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose.

One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you who is not your brother. So, very clearly, this phrase, From among your brothers, excludes anyone else.

So, when we come to the key text, the context of Deuteronomy chapter 17, 18, plainly indicates that from among your brothers equals Israelites, not foreigners, Ishmaelites, Edomites, or anyone else. Now, this is a consistent means of exegesis, for I recall very clearly many years ago when Shabir debated Robert Maury, at one point Shabir complained that Maury was not allowing a particular surah to define its own terms, that you had to allow the preceding context and the surrounding context to define the meaning of the terms.

And that's exactly correct. And that's exactly what we're doing right here. So, we finally get to the key text, Deuteronomy 18, 15, The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers, it is to him you shall listen.

Now, before reading the rest, is there anything in the context that would cause us to look to the Arabs for a fulfillment of this verse? There is nothing in the context that would lead any person reading it to think, oh yes, this is going to be fulfilled in that fashion.

Deuteronomy 18, 18, I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him, and whoever will not listen to my words, that he shall speak in my name, I myself required of him.

Now, notice how it is that this prophet is like Moses. He speaks the words of God. People can come up with long lists of parallels between Moses and others, but the text says that what is similar, what is parallel, is the fact that he speaks the words of God.

Now, when we go to the New Testament, we see that the New Testament specifically tells us that this is fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Peter preaching in Acts chapter 3 says, Moses said, the Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.

You shall listen to him and whatever he tells you, and it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people. And all the prophets who have spoken, this is Peter again speaking, all the prophets who have spoken from Samuel and those who came after him also proclaimed these days, these days being the ministry, crucifixion, resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And so, you have one of those followers of Christ, one of those close followers of Christ saying, this is the fulfillment. But does Jesus fulfill the parallel that is even found in Deuteronomy 18? He most assuredly does.

Look at John 14, 24. He who does not love me does not keep my words, and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me. Jesus talks about the fact that his message is in perfect harmony with the Father, it comes from the Father.

And in John 8, 28, so Jesus said, when you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me. And so, clearly, Jesus fulfills Deuteronomy 18.

There is no reason in the context to see any other fulfillment than in him. Jesus is also called the Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9, verse 6 says, for to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

How is this text fulfilled? Well, its fulfillment is seen in Jesus's kingship over his people. His description as God throughout the New Testament, his description as being the creator of all things, that's what Everlasting Father is in reference to, avi ad, the Hebrew term that is found there.

And he's also the provider of true and lasting peace in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, Romans 5, 1, hence, the Prince of Peace. He is prophesied to be the ruler of the nations. Psalm 2 says, the kings of the earth take their stand, and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, let us tear their fetters apart and cast away their cords from us.

He who sits in the heavens last, the Lord scoffs at them. Notice, against the Lord and against his anointed, the Meshiach, the Christos in Greek. Verse 7 of Psalm 2, I will surely tell the decree of the Lord.

He said to me, you are my son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will surely give the nations as your inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron.

You shall shatter them like earthenware. Now, therefore, O kings, show discernment, take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the Lord with reverence and rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that he not become angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath may soon be kindled.

How blessed are all who take refuge in him. There's much fulfillment of this, but Jesus even uses these words of himself in one of the letters to the churches in Revelation chapter 2, verses 26 through 27.

It's important to note, Jesus is a ruler. He is a king in many ways in Christian belief. He is the ruler of his people through the Spirit in their hearts. He is a giver of law, the law of Christ by which we live.

And the rulers of the nations will be judged by their duty to obey him and his law. He is prophesied to come forth from Bethlehem, Micah 5, 2. But as for you, Bethlehem of Pratha, too little to be among the clans of Judah.

From you, one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity. We see the fulfillment of this in Matthew chapter 2, verses 5 through 8. He comes on the foal of a donkey.

Zechariah 99 says, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold, your king is coming to you. He is just and endowed with salvation, humble and mounted on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey, fulfilled in Matthew chapter 21, verses 2 through 7, in Jesus's entry into Jerusalem before the people rejected him.

Very important and also relevant to the previous debates we had in the course this week is the title, The Divine Son of Man. In Daniel chapter 7, I kept looking in the night visions and behold, with the clouds of heaven, one like a son of man was coming and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

And to him was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom that all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve him. In Greek, Septuagint, by the way, that's the very same term with the highest form of worship, Latreau, that is used there.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away. And his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. Jesus applied these very words to himself in Mark chapter 14, verses 62 through 64.

And the Jews understood what it meant because it goes on to say, Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy. How does it seem to you?

And they all condemned him to be deserving of death. Well, what was deserving of death? They saw that this was, in fact, a claim to deity. How about the coming of the Lord? We know very clearly. A voice is calling, Clear the way for the Lord.

Yahweh in the wilderness, make smooth in the desert a highway for our God. Let every valley be lifted up and every mountain and hill be made low and let the rough ground become a plain and the rugged terrain a broad valley.

Then the glory of the Lord will be revealed and all flesh will see it together for the mouth of the Lord has spoken. The same prophecy found in Malachi 3 .1. Behold, I'm going to send my messenger and he will clear the way before you.

And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. We see the fulfillment of this in John the Baptist in Luke chapter three, verses four through six.

But most especially, and especially most precious to Christians, the crucifixion prophesied long before it takes place. In Psalm 22, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

But I am a worm and not a man, a reproach of men and despised by the people. All who see me smear at me. They separate with the lip. They wag the head saying, commit yourself to the Lord. Let him deliver him.

Let him rescue him because he delights in him. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax. It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a pot shirt and my tongue cleaves to my jaws and you lay me in the dust of death.

For the dogs have surrounded me. A band of evildoers has encompassed me. They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me. They divide my garments among them. And for my clothing, they cast lots.

But this is not how the 22nd Psalm ends. Posterity will serve him. He will be told of the Lord, the coming generation. They will come and will declare his righteousness to a people who will be born that he has performed it.

This one described in Psalm 22 is victorious in the end. And you can see the fulfillment of so many of these images in Matthew 27 verses 27 through 54. But of course, who could even begin to forget that 700 years before Christ, these words were written.

Beginning Isaiah 52, 14, just as many were astonished at you, my people. So his appearance was marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men. For he grew up before him like a young plant and like a root out of dry ground.

He had no form or majesty that we should look at him and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And as one from whom men hide their faces, he was despised and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. Upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace.

And with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned everyone to his own way and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he opened not his mouth like a lamb that has led the slaughter and like a sheep that before it shears his silence.

So he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. And as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off by the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people.

And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him. He has put him to grief.

When his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring. He shall prolong his days. The will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul, he shall see and be satisfied by his knowledge.

Shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore, I'll divide a portion with the many and he shall divide the spoil with the strong because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors.

Yet he bore the sin of many and makes intercession for the transgressors. My friends, 700 years before the coming of Christ, 700 years before his ministry, 700 years before his crucifixion, these words are written.

Here's the great Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls. These are not things that were made up afterwards. These were things were written by the prophetic voice long before Lord Jesus was born. I must confess that this study for this very debate, I'm thankful that Shabir asked that we do this first, has been tremendously encouraging to me as a Christian to consider what God has done in the writing of the scriptures.

And so the thesis established in the resurrection, after the resurrection, Jesus in speaking to the disciples said, then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. And he said to them, thus it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day and that repentance for forgiveness of sins be proclaimed in his name to all the nations beginning from Jerusalem.

But please know what Jesus had to do, even with his disciples, even with those who had walked with him in the way. What does he do for them? He opens their minds. Just before this, he had been walking with the disciples on the road to Emmaus.

And even though their eyes were prevented from recognizing him, even they themselves said later, did not our hearts burn within us as he opened the scriptures to us? That's what we need to do. That's what we need to have done in our day.

I trust that the spirit of God will be here with us this evening. He will open hearts and minds to see the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is truly our intention this evening to speak of the truth of Christ and to do so in such a fashion that you, the audience, become the judges.

You have a responsibility. Tonight, we will speak very, very quickly. Tonight, we will not be able to expand on all the points we would like to expand on. But we are doing this to provide you with a starting place.

And I would challenge each and every one of you, Christian, Muslim, or neither, take the time to examine what each one of us says. Do not just go with what we say during this time period. Examine what we have to say.

Go beyond merely being surface listeners. Don't be like so many in the modern day where you have to make a decision right now. Delve into these things. There is so much written on this. There is so much good literature on this.

Yes, there's bad literature too. You have to be discerning. But I challenge you this evening. Take out a piece of paper. Start writing down what each person says. Follow and see who is consistent with their own world view.

Who is a consistent Christian this evening? Who is a consistent Muslim this evening? And then make your decision based not upon what people look like. Shabir wins on that level anyway. Make your decision not on presentation, not on voice, not on dress, but make a decision based upon an honest examination of the fullness of truth.

Let's do something people in our society don't generally do. Let's honor truth this evening. Thank you very much. Shabir Ali, may I welcome you to come and give your opening statement.

Why the Old Testament May or May Not Predict Jesus

Hello everyone. Peace be with you and the mercy and blessings of God. Well, I think James wins on the technological apparatus. There he is with his fancy laptop. And he's already advised me on how to get a good one.

So perhaps next time. I begin by praising our creator and fashioner, the creator and fashioner of the heavens and the earth. And I ask him to send peace and blessings upon all of his prophets and messengers.

And to bless every person, every man and woman in this gathering today. And everyone who will watch this tape or listen to our voices in whatever form or follow this debate forever. Now to get on with the topic, I've made some adjustments to what I was planning to say in listening to James.

And I think it's important that we do that always. Because by listening to each other, we do learn from each other as we go. I hope that these debates will prove to be learning experiences, not only for us, but for others who will try to follow the debates later on.

I am very much impressed with a book written by James Dunn. Reverend James Dunn has written a book entitled The Evidence for Jesus. And in looking at a number of questions that have been raised concerning belief in Jesus, he answers many of the questions by saying yes and no.

And then he explains why yes and why no. And that makes us realize that some of the greatest scholars do not know everything. And those who do know something realize that very few questions can be answered categorically yes or no.

Some questions do have to be answered with a yes and a no. So too is the question before me, the first question this evening, does the Old Testament predict Jesus? My answer is yes and no. First, from the perspective of a Muslim, James is right.

Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet of God. And Muslims would not want to argue that Jesus is not prophesied. No benefit will be gained from the purpose of Muslim belief by arguing that point. At the same time, I should clarify that there's nothing in the Quran which necessitate that a Muslim must believe that something was predicted about Jesus before his entry into the world.

The fact that he is a true prophet does not necessitate that something must have been said about him in the previous scriptures prior to his birth. Al-Razi and some of the commentators on the Quran do in fact assume that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament.

But I think they took that as a matter of principle that all prophets must somehow be predicted by a prior prophet until eventually the last of all of the prophets is predicted by not only the one before him but by all of them.

But Al-Razi could not, if he were challenged, I believe, produce anything that is satisfactory from the Old Testament to show that this is a definite prediction about the prophet Jesus, peace be upon him.

He just took Jews and Christians at their word, in this case, particularly Christians, that Jesus was predicted in the previous scriptures. So in principle, I have no objection to Jews as being predicted.

But as we look at the predictions in some great detail, we might see that they do not quite measure up to actual predictions of Jesus. But let's look at that after I finish my yes part. And still dealing with my yes answer to that question, I would be willing to grant that Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18 does speak of Jesus, but in a particular sense.

Let me explain. The New Jerome biblical commentary explains that that verse, which speaks about a prophet to come after Moses, actually, though given in the singular, actually means plural, prophets. And the author of the New Jerome biblical commentary commenting on Deuteronomy has his own way of explaining that, looking at the grammar of the Hebrew.

But the same point is captured by William Montgomery Watt in a citation I'll just read before you. He writes in his book on the Muslim and Christian perceptions that the prophecy is, in fact, plural. And in that sense, it would refer not only to Jesus, but also to the Prophet Muhammad on whom be peace.

In other words, there's going to be a series of prophets coming after Moses, not just one prophet. Otherwise, people might have looked to Joshua and there have been so many prophets over time. Why not one of those prophets?

But if you think of a series of prophets to come after Moses, and it makes sense, Moses is leaving, but people will not be left without guidance. God will continue to send prophets to people over time.

In that case, we can include the Prophet Jesus, especially for some of the good reasons that James has mentioned. It does seem that this is a prophecy about an Israelite prophet, and Jesus was an Israelite prophet.

I don't, for this part of my debate, wish to dispute that it is an Israelite prophecy. I'll come more to that in my second part, where I will try to apply the same prophecy to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

But I won't do that yet. But for this part of the debate, I want to comment on that small point that James has raised. Obviously, we have here the Old Testament, which was written by Israelites. And notice what happens.

Let me tell you a story. A woman is giving birth, and she has twins to deliver. One of the babies sticks his hand out, and the midwife immediately ties a string around the wrist to identify this as the first born.

But while he was drawing his hand back in, his brother rushed out ahead of him. Now, we all know that babies don't rush out like this. I mean, I've waited for my four children to be born with my wife in the delivery room.

They don't come out quickly, I tell you. Now, this story is the story of Tamar and the birth of her two sons. And the story can be read in Genesis chapter 38 towards the end. Now, what is the story doing here?

According to the Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Harper's Commentary on the Bible, you can check several commentaries on this to see what the story is there doing. The story is for the purpose of explaining how did the younger son, not the first born, become so prominent?

It turns out that this younger son is the forefather of David. So he's prominent. Now, the storytellers have to deal with this as a problem. First, it's no problem. Doesn't matter whether God favored the first born or the second born or whoever rises to greatness due to circumstances, much of which we do not control.

But the storytellers want to explain why not the first born, but the younger brother rose to prominence. Of course, the story is written by his descendants. And so even though we have the other brother who is recognized with the string on his hand to be the first born son, nevertheless, somehow he touched the finishing line, but his brother went all the way past it before he could get there.

So that's the story. The story becomes clearer when we look at the story of Jacob and Esau, Genesis chapter 27. Now, the mother is told by God that there are two nations struggling within her. The babies are already fighting.