July 15, 2019 Show with Jason Wallace on “The Atheist Illusion”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 15th day of July, 2019, and I'm so thrilled to have back a returning guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a dear friend and somebody who has proven to be one of my very favorite guests to interview.

His name is Jason Wallace. He is pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah, a congregation in the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination. He is also a documentarian, a producer of lds .video.

He has produced videos not only on the Mormons, but on Roman Catholicism, on homosexuality, and atheism.

And today we are going to be discussing his latest documentary, which is absolutely superb.

I strongly urge you to get this documentary into the hands of everybody you know, especially young people, millennials, college students, and so on, because of the barrage of falsehoods they are no doubt going to be hearing wherever they go, whether it's a college campus or just hanging out with friends.

But the documentary is called The Atheist Illusion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend,

Pastor Jason Wallace. Chris, always a privilege to be with you. Praise God.

Well, before we go into our topic, the documentary, The Atheist Illusion, please tell our listeners about Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah.

We're a congregation, as you said, of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. We stress expository preaching, simple reverent worship.

We teach the Bible. We preach the Bible. We sing the Bible, hymns and psalms. We pray the

Bible. We believe God's spoken. I'm sorry, I thought that your church was Presbyterian.

I'm only kidding. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, we started here 21 years ago and started from scratch.

The Lord's blessed us. We have a congregation here in the Salt Lake area on the west side in Magna.

The Lord's blessed us with a building. We have a sister congregation up in, used to be in Ogden.

They've moved a little further south to Clearfield now. We've had some people inquiring about possibly joining the

OPC existing churches and had an inquiry last week of somebody curious about seeing an

OPC church planted down in southern Utah. So we rejoice in how the Lord's blessed here.

Amen. Now, Ogden, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ogden even more heavily saturated with Mormon residents than the

Salt Lake City area where you are? Not really. I mean, Ogden has always had more of what they call a

Gentile influence because of the railroad and various things. Military Hill Air Force Base is just south of Ogden, and for a number of reasons, it's like Salt Lake.

It's more cosmopolitan. Oh, okay. I think the nominal Protestant population, though,

I think this is just anything remotely Protestant, from the most liberal

Protestants across the spectrum. Anything just remotely Protestant is about 4 % in Salt Lake County and in Weber County, which is

Ogden. Okay. When you go to the next county south, though, Provo is what you may be thinking.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking of. Yeah, Provo is the home of Brigham Young University. It used to be under one -half of 1%.

Now it's up to about two -thirds of 1%. There's actually more

Protestants per capita in India, Egypt, China, and Japan than in Utah County with over half a million people.

Okay, well, if anybody is visiting Magna, Utah, the Salt Lake City area, or they live there already, or you have family, friends, and loved ones that live there, you want to direct them to a good, solid

Bible -believing church, go to www .gospelutah .org,

gospelutah .org, and hopefully I will remember to repeat that later on in the broadcast.

By the way, a very important piece of trivia,

I don't know if that's an oxymoron, important trivia, but anyway, our mutual friend, that means

Jason Wallace's mutual friend with me, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, does make fairly regular trips out to Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah to put on conferences and so on, and has done so for quite a number of years.

Yeah, he has been extremely gracious to us. He did debates for us 20 years ago.

For a time, it got to where he had been coming to General Conference twice a year for many years before we got here, and then we started doing debates with him, but a number of things changed.

They put out the word to more debates within the Mormon church, and some other things happened, so he was gone for a while.

But the last several years, he's been here a good number of times, and it's been a great blessing to us and to the church here.

Great. Now, how did you get involved in making documentaries?

Because you do, and I'm not just saying this because of my frequently heard voice on your documentaries.

Sometimes I need to hire a medium to conjure up these voices of evil people to be a part of your documentaries.

I am kidding, folks. But your documentaries are absolutely superb.

I mean, if I were to see your documentaries on a major television network,

I would not hesitate to think that there was anything less than professional quality going on with your documentaries.

The only thing that might be different about your documentaries is that the truth was heard from beginning to end.

So I might be surprised by that if I saw them on major television networks. But they are absolutely the finest in documentaries

I've seen. So tell us how you got involved in these documentaries. Well, Chris, before I give that,

I just want to give a shout -out to Russ Bales. He's the genius on the visual side of things.

He takes all my images and text or voiceovers and things like this, and he makes them look so much better than I could have ever dreamed.

Yes, and Russ has been a long -time listener to Iron Trip and Zion Radio as well. Yeah, he is a good brother.

He does remarkable work in this. But as far as how we got into this, when we first moved here, we knew we'd have to be aggressive in outreach, and so we literally did hundreds of book tables.

It was through the book tables we met James, and then through James we put together debates.

I moderated the debates. Before I became a pastor, the Lord had a sense of humor.

The scariest thing I could imagine was public speaking. And I went to seminary with great trepidation because I didn't know whether I could actually be a pastor.

But the Lord kept opening doors and shoving me through them. Well, with the debates, I knew

I wasn't a debater, but I could moderate. And after a number of the debates,

I realized I knew their arguments as well as they did. And I'm not a debater, but I can preach.

And so when James couldn't come any longer, there were some Mormons who disregarded what was being said from down at BYU, you know, don't do any more debates.

And so I started doing some of the debates. And that led to an opportunity to do a weekly call -in show on a local

Christian TV station. And there was some teaching on there that was not very sound.

And I got frustrated with it, and I finally came to the conclusion, if you want to see something done better, you have to step forward.

And so in the Lord's sense of humor, here I am, by nature, painfully introverted, really not wanting to do public speaking at all.

I end up doing live television, no net, just live

TV. And we did interviews. We had an instructor from the

LDS Institute of Religion on 14 times over seven and a half years. We had the president of the

Atheists of Utah on. We had former Mormons.

Sandra Tanner was very gracious to come on numerous times. Yes, the great -granddaughter of Brigham Young. Yeah, and she's a tremendous blessing.

There might be a couple of extra greats in there. I kind of call it,

I think she's great -great. But we had a number of other authors, Charles Larson, who wrote by his own hand upon papyrus.

We had an interview with non -Christians who had written things about the

Mormon counterfeit murders that took place back in the 80s.

We had Will Baglione, who had done a massive historical work on the

Mountain Meadows Massacre in 1857. And then we also just did a lot of Bible instruction.

And we did that for seven and a half years. They finally sold the station, the ladies who had it, sold it to a

Telemundo affiliate, and so it changed formats and the show went away. And it was great for what it was.

It was spooky how many people would watch. I was told by the instructor from the

LDS Institute that the president of one of the temples watched it regularly.

He tried to watch it every week. And people would come up to me on the street and things like this.

But with a live show, you're flying by the seat of your pants. You don't know what the other person is going to say.

You don't know what the callers are going to say. Sometimes the callers had really, really interesting questions or comments.

One of the reasons I have now, I used to have live call -ins. Now I have live email questions.

We figured that out on debates a long time ago, but we couldn't do it on the TV show. And so all

I knew was the person's first name and where they were calling from. But what they actually asked could have been completely different than what the person they spoke to was told.

So we did that, and it was fun. It was profitable. We had people tell us that it helped lead them to Christ.

But I was kind of frustrated that it was flying by the seat of our pants.

I wanted to try to crystallize what we had been doing there. And I saw the impact of video.

There's so much good stuff in print. I saw no reason to try to add to what's out there.

I just try to get people to listen or to read what people who are more competent than I have have written.

My old pastor, whom you've interviewed before, Terry Johnson, he's written some brilliant books. He'll point you back to the

Puritans. Why would I add to that? But I realized that a lot of people don't read much anymore.

And there's a power in video that you just don't have elsewhere. And I could take the best arguments from the

TV show, crystallize them, put them all together.

And there's a lot of things that deal with Mormonism in terms of its historic inconsistencies, in terms of various problems.

But they all tend to be short and narrowly focused or very long and narrowly focused.

But I wanted to present something that gave an overview of Mormonism and dealt with it thoroughly.

And so we ended up making an earnest plea to Latter -day Saints. And we go through basically five lives from history that are incontrovertible.

I mean, you can go to official Mormon sources now and verify these things.

But when we made it, most of them were unknown by 99 % of LPS.

And even today, 90 -plus percent of LPS don't know it. But we did some historical things.

But then we presented the gospel. The point is not just to turn people from Mormonism to another form of unbelief, but to point them to Jesus.

And so we dealt with the three big issues that God is an exalted man, that Adam sinned, that man might be, you know, they call literally the fall of Adam a fall upward.

One of their apostles called it one of the greatest blessings ever given to man. And then the final one, that they preached the restored gospel.

And so we showed them the real God, the real nature of sin, and the real gospel. And we've made seven other videos.

Five of them dealing with smaller subjects as sort of feeder videos to the big one for Mormons.

And then we made two videos for former Mormons, after Mormonism, atheism.

And after Mormonism, now what? And trying to help people deal with the baggage that they bring out of Mormonism.

Most people, when they leave Mormonism, become atheists. Yeah, it's a shame.

I've heard that about other cults as well. You mentioned something before. Before we go into the specific topic of atheism and the

Atheist Illusion documentary, you mentioned the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

A lot of people might not be familiar with that event. But if I'm not mistaken, and I've been mistaken before, just as I was a few minutes ago,

I believe the Mountain Meadows Massacre was the largest massacre on American soil of American citizens before 9 -11.

I'm not 100 % sure that that's correct, but I think it is true. Do you know if what

I just said is actually a fact? I've heard that claim. There are some that will dispute that.

There were other massacres of Indians, and there were potentially others, the

Tulsa Riots in 1921, things like this. I don't try to rank them, but Mormons will typically play the victim.

We were so persecuted, and there was persecution. I'm not taking away from that. But if you total up all the people killed in the

Missouri War, it was about 20 people. In one day, Mormons in the name of Mormonism killed 120 to 140 men, women, and children that were unarmed.

They promised them safe passage, and they executed every one of them that was above the age of eight.

These were travelers on their way, I think, to California, perhaps, or somewhere out west.

When they were traveling through Utah, the Mormons believed they were spies for the government or something nonsensical.

Am I right on that? Partially. I mean, Brigham Young, when the

Mormons moved here in 1847, most people don't realize this was still Mexico. Their idea when they moved here was to create a new state, an independent republic like Texas, the state of Deseret.

It was going to go from the western slope of Colorado all the way to Los Angeles.

A lot of towns, people don't realize, Las Vegas was actually started by the Mormons as a stop along the trail from Los Angeles to Salt Lake City.

The statement was made by Brigham Young, give us ten years and we'll be ready. Within six months, they found themselves back in the

United States because of the end of the Mexican -American War. With the

United States' purchase of the southwest, the Mormons found themselves right back in the

United States, again, here in Utah. But Brigham Young really tried to control things.

There was no private ownership of land here. Everything was owned by God, his prophet.

And so Brigham Young would allot land and things like this. Well, the government's wanting to homestead and have people with individual ownership.

Well, that breaks the stranglehold of Brigham Young. Well, he did a number of things to antagonize the federal government.

He was the territorial governor. And finally, Buchanan had enough and he sent an army to remove him as governor.

And they had sent troops out and had burned the supply wagons to slow them down.

Well, it was in the midst of that in 1857 that the Fancher Party comes through Salt Lake City.

And the Mormons are preparing for war. I mean, they were literally talking about burning

Salt Lake to the ground, retreating to the Bitterroot Valley up in Montana. They had taken all kinds of blood oaths.

And the rumor got out, which I think was completely fabricated by Mormons, but the rumor got out that the

Fancher Party was boasting that they had been part of killing Joseph Smith. And Parley Pratt had just been killed in Arkansas, where they came from, by a jealous husband.

He had seduced this woman away from her husband, and then they went back to steal her children.

And the husband called Parley Pratt and killed him. And the jury acquitted him.

And so there were all kinds of things at play there. And basically, the

Mormons, their doctrine of blood atonement was that these people are unclean, and we're going to cleanse them of their sins by killing them.

The shedding of blood, according to Mormons, is necessary for salvation in regard to certain sins, like murder and so on.

Which is why, even until recently in history, Utah was one of the few states that continued to practice the firing squad for the execution of those on death row because of the blood that would be shed.

Do they still do that, if you request it? As far as I know, they got rid of it a few years, or a number of years ago.

I've been out here 21, so it all borders together. I remember Gary Gilmore requested it. He was on death row, and he was a

Mormon, at least. I don't know if that was one of those foxhole conversions or what it was.

Yeah, Gilmore wanted the firing squad. They did get rid of the firing squad for a time, but then they brought it back is the last

I heard. And as far as I know, it's still up to the prisoner whether they want to be executed in that form.

The Mormon church has so downplayed its historic teachings.

A lot of people poo -poo that now. But historically, it was very clear that there were sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, according to Brigham Young.

A man's own blood had to be shed. And ironically, the

Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred also on September 11th, in 1857,

I believe. Correct. That's quite a coincidence. But one of the reasons

I think it's very applicable to discuss not only the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but 9 -11 and other things, in a segue into atheism, is because one of the very well -known and often used elements of atheistic rhetoric is that more people have been killed on the face of the earth in the name of religion than for any other reason.

Now, let me start off by saying, when I hear that, I don't get as nearly indignant as some

Christians or conservative religious people get. Because I know there is only one true religion, the religion of Christianity.

And even though there have been many, like the Church of Rome and so on, who have masqueraded as Christians, who have committed atrocities on a grand scale, massive scale,

I know that true biblical Christianity is the only true religion, and that all other religion is false.

So that claim does not bother me. But in your opinion, from what you know of history, is that even a true claim?

No, no. It's the big lie that they just keep repeating, hoping that people will believe it.

And considering what our political system has become, people hear things enough times and they assume they must be true.

Most wars in history have had people claiming some support of some god for what they were doing.

But in terms of really religious wars, there's not nearly as many as the atheists make out.

And the atheists, they dismiss the hundred million that have been killed in just the last hundred years.

They say, well, that doesn't count, because atheism is only a negation of belief.

It's not a positive system. You can't blame us for anything any other atheist has done.

This ties into the whole illusion thing. It's games meant to deceive.

Anything done in the name of any god supposedly condemns every theist out there.

Anyone who believes in a god is condemned by anything that anyone does in the name of any god. And yet, anything done in the name of atheism is only the act of an individual.

That's just a scam. Of course it is. It's a deception. Especially since they have a set of beliefs, just like a religion does, that they militantly, quote -unquote, evangelize others to believe.

Wouldn't you say that atheism has really all of the elements of a religion, except it's just a false religion, and it has a key element of not believing in the existence of god?

But having a belief about god even would include you in a religion. Oh yeah.

I mean, especially the whole New Atheist Movement. They have a common creation myth,

Darwinism. They have a common ethical system, which tends to be progressivism.

They have their priest, the high priest or the college professors, and then the lower order of clergy are the public school teachers.

And they have their martyrs. We deal in the video with the

Scopes Monkey Trial, and they try to turn John Scopes into a fellow who's about to be hanged.

And it's all a lie. It's a publicity stunt. Yeah, that's one of the things that you clearly bring up in the documentary.

The gentleman who played the first Darren on Bewitched, I can't remember the actor's name.

Dick York? Yes, right. He was in that movie. Yeah, along with Spencer Tracy and Frederick Arch and sadly,

Claude Eakins, who's a distant cousin. A distant cousin of yours? Yeah.

Wow. Well, we are going to go to our first break right now. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own about atheism, or about this documentary specifically,

The Atheist Illusion, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Jason Wallace and The Atheist Illusion.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions.

While always defending the key doctrines of the Christian faith, I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Did you know that all believers are priests? In 1 Peter 2, verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes

Christ's church as comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

So if you're a Christian, you're also a priest. Now you can find the newest styles in Reformed and Protestant apparel at CitizenPriest .com.

CitizenPriest .com specializes in Christian -themed t -shirts and clothing especially for Reformed Christians.

CitizenPriest .com's merchandise is purposefully Scripture -based and meant for the edification of the saints and the furtherance of the

Gospel. Let everyone know that you stand firm on the doctrines of the Reformed faith by wearing apparel from CitizenPriest .com.

Visit CitizenPriest .com today. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshipped and how

He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hey, this is

Pete Orta, former guitar player for the Grammy Award -winning Christian rock band, Petra. I'd like to invite you to my new podcast called

Christian Conversations Unfiltered. This channel is much different than my sermon podcast. The episodes are intimate conversations with people who

I enjoy about topics that I can't really unbox from the pulpit. Each episode is unproduced, unedited, and unapologetic.

Conversations that might not only help you answer some relevant questions you might be struggling with, but also help create some questions in your head that you might not have even ever thought of.

The purpose of this podcast is to help people apply their theology while broadening their biblical worldview.

So go to PeteOrta .com. That's P -E -T -E -O -R -T -A dot com.

And click subscribe to podcast, and then choose what podcast you'd like to hear, if not both, and what platform works best for you.

Can't wait for you to join us. God bless. One sure way all

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers. I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use

Battery Depot dot com for all your battery needs. At Battery Depot dot com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script. They're sticking it to the man. In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from Battery Depot dot com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries you can count on to work properly.

At competitive prices, whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios,

PCs, laptops, tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card readers, digital cameras, electronic cigarettes,

GPSs, MP3 players, watches, or nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to Battery Depot dot com.

Next day shipping available. All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and 6 -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768. That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to Battery Depot dot com. That's Battery Depot dot com. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, host of A Visit to the

Pastor's Study, and I am so thankful to be part of the advertising family right here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you live on Long Island or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The Haven on Sundays at 4 .30

p .m. We meet at the Ascension Lutheran Church facility, 33 Bayshore Road in Deer Park, New York.

At The Haven you'll find God -saturated singing, gospel -rich ministry, and great commission opportunities.

Learn more about us at thehavenli .com and join us this Sunday at 4 .30

p .m. 33 Bayshore Road, Deer Park, New York. And that was the voice of Bill Shishko, a mutual friend of my guest

Jason Wallace and mine, Bill Shishko, the pastor of a new work on Long Island, a church plant called

The Haven, which is a congregation under the oversight of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination.

So I hope that anybody in Long Island in that area without a church home will visit

The Haven. And in fact, from what I understand, The Haven is the only evangelical congregation in Deer Park, Long Island, which is very interesting.

It's one of the primary reasons, if not the primary reason, Bill Shishko chose that town to plant this church.

So please let all of our advertisers know that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Truck and Zion Radio.

We are now back with Jason Wallace, pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, Utah. We are discussing his documentary,

The Atheist Illusion. And our email address, if you have a question for him, is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Now, just to get some definitions correct, can you tell us the difference between an agnostic and an atheist?

Honesty. Well, I've heard,

I've even heard from Bill Maher that he calls himself an agnostic, which is, in his mind, doubting the existence of God, rather than an atheist who knows for certain that God does not exist, because he said, has said, that to claim to be an atheist is a claim to know all things.

Would that be an accurate statement by Bill Maher, one of the few accurate statements by Bill Maher? Sure, and one of the points that we try to bring out in the video is, atheists have a problem whenever they try to make any truth claims, because to know anything for certain requires omniscience, it requires comprehensive knowledge.

You don't know whether what you're perceiving is correct or not, and so atheists are completely inconsistent.

Most people will hedge and say, well, technically I'm agnostic, and you get people like Dan Barker who says that the odds are 99 .99997

% that there's no God. He's just making numbers up. If you really press him, he doesn't know anything with any certainty, and so any claims to truth at all, any idea of assigning probabilities is just foolishness.

Now, wasn't that a highlight in the debate that you featured, a part of the debate, a very short clip of the debate that you featured in your documentary, with our mutual friend

Cy Ten Bruggenkate, the presuppositionalist Christian? Yes, most definitely, and just as an aside before I go there, during the commercial break,

Bill Shishko and John Sampson are actually two of the voices in the video, besides yourself.

John Sampson is the voice of Charles Darwin, and Bill Shishko is reading from the

Civic Biology book that was at the center of the Scopus Monkey trial. Yes, an om -typical

Christian. No, no, you were reading about typical

Christians, you were the voice of, oh, I can't think of the guy's sign -on, but basically,

Kfir, he was an unbeliever, but you were the voice of an atheist. Right.

But yeah, back to the debate, Cy hammered this, and he asked

Matt Dillahunty, who was at one time a professing Christian, and has now chunked it all,

I've reached the age where I've watched a bunch of people who really didn't care about Biblical Christianity when they were professing

Christians, they actually despised historical Biblical Christianity, but still proclaimed to be

Christians, and then they become atheists, and they still hate historic Biblical Christianity. But Matt Dillahunty is a very, very vocal atheist.

And Saiten, Brew and Kate did a debate with him a few years ago. I know they did one that was actually hosted by an

Orthodox Presbyterian church, but I don't think this one was. But he pressed

Dillahunty, what is one thing you know with certainty?

And Dillahunty jumps all around, what do you mean by no? Are we using my definition of true or your definition of true?

And he just keeps pressing him. By your standard, what one thing do you really know?

And there's nothing. And we have the

Nobel laureate, Feynman, saying he doesn't know anything with certainty.

And he thought that was a good thing. Well, of course he doesn't. They don't live that way.

Right. In their minds. Right. I mean, basically, atheism is a lot like Mormonism.

It's about men trying to make themselves into gods. Right. And they decide what's true.

And they think that they can sit in judgment of the God of the Bible. Right. If they were merely atheists, which, by the way, would you agree that because of what we read in Romans 1, there really is no such thing as an atheist?

Oh, definitely. And that's... Psy does a brilliant job of just demonstrating that.

Because nature reveals to all men that God exists. It doesn't give us enough information to know the gospel, but it gives us enough information to condemn us if we reject

God. Yes. We were having an intramural joke there about Baptists and Presbyterians.

I love the fact that many Reformed Baptists have discovered Greg Bonson and Cornelius Fantil, who are

Orthodox Presbyterian ministers, who really drove home with presuppositional apologetics.

The problem of unbelief is not a problem of ignorance. We are all created in the image of God.

We have the evidence for God all around us and in us. And the problem is not the head, the problem is the heart.

We're actively suppressing the truth. We don't want to face that truth. As a good friend of mine says, the heart of the problem is the problem of the heart.

And we try to demonstrate that. One of my favorite clips in the video is

Oxford professor Peter Adkins, who was appearing on Unbelievable. And he was asked...

That's the British television and radio program that actually I was on as well. Right. And I apologize to the host, his name just went out of my head.

Justin Brierley. Yes. Justin Brierley asked Peter Adkins, What evidence would be sufficient for you?

Because atheists love to pretend that they are coming to the reasonable conclusion simply based on the evidence.

Well, the reality is they only consider as evidence what they choose. And they come to it with a bias.

And they're going to make it fit their predetermined conclusion. Well, Peter Adkins, Oxford professor, like Dawkins, he's asked, what would be sufficient?

And he said, well, and he basically reels off this complicated formula for entropy.

He said, maybe if that appeared. He said, but then on second thought, I would just think it was a forgery.

And Justin Brierley asked him, what if the star spelled out, Peter, I'm here.

And he would say, I just chalked it up to madness. One of the things

I was going to say that I sidetracked myself when I... I forget,

I can't even remember what I sidetracked. But anyway, atheists and atheism would really not pose

Christianity or even the population of the world at large, wouldn't really pose a threat to us at all if atheists just simply denied the existence of God and their personal ideology and went on to mind their own business and went about their lives.

The only harm they would be doing primarily was to themselves and perhaps to their children. But the fact that they really are a religion, whether they call it that or not, that is really why they pose a threat, not that they pose a threat to the church of Jesus Christ, which will remain forever until Christ himself returns and brings us into heaven with him.

But it does pose a threat to the thinking of people.

It is because of the aggressiveness and the dogmatism with which they treat their ideology, which has no distinction between a religion and what they claim is just a personal denial of God.

Yes, it's funny that you'll have Dalkins presenting a materialistic worldview, saying that we live in a universe of blind, pitiless indifference.

No good, no evil, nothing. And you'll have

Dan Barker saying, you know, there is no purpose to life.

In the cosmic sense, we matter no more than broccoli matters. Yeah, I remember hearing that in your documentary.

Right, well, they get up there and they say these things, but they don't live that way. Right. And part of...

They have to borrow from our worldview. Oh, most definitely. Steal from it. Exactly.

Well, there's an absurdity to it all, that they try to take induction, which is based on the idea that there's a reasonable

God who has made a reasonable universe who has communicated truth to us. And it was this thinking that led

Newton and Kepler and most of the men of the scientific revolution to...

They want to take the method and divorce it from the God of the Bible and say, well, science is our standard, and only what science can prove is true.

Well, they laugh at us because we say that the

Bible is true, and they accuse us of circular reasoning. Well, all reasoning is based on presuppositions.

Our system is consistent, theirs isn't. Theirs is circular as well.

They start with certain assumptions, but if you want to argue that science is the only way of knowing truth, then how do you know science is true?

Science can't prove the image. It deals only with matter and motion. It can't deal with the immaterial principles on which it's based.

The scientific method is immaterial. God and the soul are immaterial.

They say, well, that's just like believing in Santa Claus. Well, what about math? What about logic? What about the scientific method?

But they suppress the absurdity of their position, but there is an active evil.

One of the slights of hand, as we portray it in the video, is that if you have a naturalistic universe where there's no good, no evil, it's just blind, pitiless indifference, what's the point?

Why are they so concerned about scientific advancement? Why are they concerned about convincing others?

Why are they concerned about living? And the reality is they use a naturalistic universe to try to dismiss

God, but one of the big deceptions of atheism is they don't leave it there.

They put themselves in his place. And to convince themselves and others of the reality of it, the theory of atheism has been one of trying to build utopias.

And we'd go through and we'd document what happened when atheism became the state religion of France during the

French Revolution. Most people don't realize the cult of reason was the only legal religion in France.

And so we'd go through and explain that. We'd show that continuing thought through the

Bolsheviks, through Mao, through Pol Pot, and a host of others.

It's all a bunch of lies. We have to go to our midway break right now, which is the longer than normal break because of Grace Life Radio.

That's 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. They need a longer break in the middle because they air their own public service announcements and commercials while we air our own globally heard commercials.

Before I go to that break though, I'm going to read you a question from a listener, a very faithful and generous listener to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

I'm going to read his question and then I'll have you answer it when we come back. His question is, Great show brothers

Chris and Jason. I know Dan Barker and others claim to having been

Christians before becoming an atheist. About what perfect of atheists do you think now claim

I think he meant to say percentage. About what percentage of atheists do you think now claim to have been

Christians? Of course, we know they never knew Jesus Christ. So we'll have you answer that when we come back.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please remember to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because we rely upon the advertising dollars of our sponsors to exist.

The more frequently and successfully you patronize them, the more likely they will remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain on the air.

So please patronize our advertisers as much as you can and further ensure that you will do that by writing down their information.

Also write down questions for Jason Wallace and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Tired of box store

Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship?

And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

631 -929 -3512 Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the

NASV is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation. The NASV offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

NASV is known for. The NASV is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

Bibles, find an NASV that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com. Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the

NASV for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot.

Jeffrey Rice of Post Tenebrous Luxe is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand, from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin, tanned in Italy used for my

Nestle All in 28th edition, with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post Tenebrous Luxe Bible rebinding, go to PTLBibleRebinding .com.

That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. Iron Sharpens Iron welcomes

Solid Rock Remodeling to our family of sponsors. Serving South Central Pennsylvania, Solid Rock Remodeling is focused on discovering, understanding, and exceeding your expectations.

They deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results. Solid Rock Remodeling offers a full range of home renovations, including kitchen and bath remodeling, decks, porches, windows and doors, roof and siding, and more.

For a clear, detailed professional estimate, call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time.

Call Solid Rock Remodeling at 717 -697 -1981.

717 -697 -1981. Or visit SolidRockRemodeling .com.

That's SolidRockRemodeling .com. Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home.

Gotta tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.

Iron. Criticizing. Iron. I think that's what it's called. This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV with Phil Johnson of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight for me.

So tons of stuff going on. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me,

G3conference .com. G3conference .com. And now there's even more exciting news.

John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the G3 Conference, Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th, 2020.

Go to G3conference .com. G3conference .com. See you there. I'm Dr.

Gary Kimbrough, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 1 .27 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia, in a township called

Cabanana, who are taking care of 24 orphans. I found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding.

What was I to do? Could I just say God bless you and walk away? The situation of the children set heavily upon me.

As I was praying concerning this need, it came to me, I trust from the Lord, to tell the orphans' plight to a broader audience.

The entire need for their clothing, food, education, and some medical services is $73 per month per child.

If just 50 of us would give $35 a month, we could meet the need. Bethlehem Baptist Church will pay the fee to get the funds there, so if you give a dollar, a dollar will get to the orphans.

In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838

Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how

He shall be represented in the world. They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship.

Performed with faith, joy, and sobriety. Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered,

Christ -exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is CVBBS .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at CVBBS .com. That's CVBBS .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. They have those two excellent offers that they are still providing for you, free offers.

First of all, the first book that they're giving away for free is for any purchase of any amount, Hardback, published by Evangelical Press, True Love, by Dr.

James M. Renahan, the president of IRBS Theological Seminary.

And by the way, our sponsors at the IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, their website is

IRBSSeminary .org, IRBSSeminary .org. Don't forget the two

S's back -to -back in the middle there. But Dr. James M. Renahan has written this outstanding book,

Understanding the Real Meaning of Christian Love, is the subtitle of this book, True Love.

You'll get it for free as long as you put it in the comment section at CVBBS .com. When you place an order of any amount, doesn't matter how inexpensive.

Now, if you want the second offer for free, you have to purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise.

That book is my favorite of all biographies, A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone.

I absolutely love this book. I think it should be a major motion picture. It should be at least made into a documentary.

The Life of Spencer Cone, who was a 19th century particular Baptist pastor in Manhattan. Particular Baptists today are known as Reformed Baptists, Calvinistic Baptists, Sovereign Grace Baptists.

Well, Spencer Cone, he not only was a school teacher and a lawyer and a theater actor, stage actor in the 19th century, but he was a war hero in the

War of 1812. And he became, as I said, a pastor. He was the pastor of First Baptist Church in New York City in the 1800s and was surrounded by all kinds of theological controversy in Manhattan at that time.

He is just an extraordinary man, whose life should be known by every

Christian, and tragically, hardly anybody knows of the existence of Spencer Cone, unless they've gotten their hands on this excellent biography by my friend,

John Thornberry, a Baptist historian. So please, I would do anything you can to get this book in your hands.

All you have to do is order $50 worth of merchandise at cvbbs .com, then include

A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone, into your cart, and then enter the coupon code

IRONSHARPENSIREN, all capitals, all one word, and if you enter

IRONSHARPENSIREN, the cost of A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone will be subtracted from your total.

You must, for that book, as I said, order at least $50 worth of merchandise. The other book, as I said,

True Love, you get for free with the purchase of any amount. All you have to do is mention True Love on the comment section of cvbbs .com.

You can also make your life a lot easier. I know that all that can be confusing. Just call them during 10 a .m.

and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time at 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, and tell them that you want both

True Love and A Pastor in New York, The Life and Times of Spencer Cone with your order.

And please always remember to mention IRONSHARPENSIREN radio to all of our advertisers when you patronize them or contact them for any reason.

Now I just have some important announcements to make regarding special events that I hope as many of you as possible will attend.

The first is involving a conference featuring my dear friend

Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

This is a conference conducted by PTI, which stands for Providence Theological Institute, and Dr.

Tony Costa will be conducting this seminar or conference at The Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas.

And I hope that if you live in that area especially, you make every effort to attend, and if you are able to take a train, plane, or automobile out to see him in Hockley, Texas, it will be well worth your while hearing

Dr. Tony Costa speak. If you want more information on that, you can just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com And I will give you all the information that you need to attend this conference.

And that's going to be held August 2nd through the 5th, 2019.

That's a Friday through Thursday at The Church at Friendship.

The Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas. Then I am going to be packing up my bags in December.

That's December 19th and 20th, a Thursday and Friday. I'm packing up my bags and heading back to my old stomping grounds to New York City to the

Foundations Conference, a conference hosted and orchestrated by sermonaudio .com.

This is always a phenomenal conference, and this December is no exception.

They have on their lineup Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, one of the most powerful preachers alive today, founder of One Passion Ministries.

Paul Washer, an extraordinary preacher. Rev. Jeff Thomas, another extraordinary preacher and author.

Rev. Armin Tomasian, who I think is going to be a household name over the next decade amongst Reformed Christians anyway.

He is a powerful preacher, a young pastor with gifts and abilities far beyond his youth. Richard Caldwell, Jr.

and Andrew Quigley are also on the lineup. I have never heard them preach before, but if sermonaudio selected them for the conference that they are hosting,

I am sure that they must be remarkable. If you want to join me in Manhattan during Christmas season, what better time of year to go to Manhattan than Christmas season,

December 19th through the 20th. That's Thursday and Friday, December 19th through the 20th. Go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com. Please tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arns and the Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Then in January, I am going to be packing up my bags again and heading down south this time.

Once again, that's January 16th through the 18th in Atlanta, Georgia at the

Georgia International Convention Center, which is specifically in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

I am so excited about this conference, as I always am. The speakers are always extraordinary.

The lineup is always breathtakingly long and amazing. The lineup includes

Kosti Hinn, who, yes, if you recognize that name, Hinn, he is, believe it or not, the nephew of the notorious charlatan and heretic

Benny Hinn. Kosti doesn't mind me saying that because a great part of his ministry is spent exposing his own uncle and all of those heretics within the

Word of Faith movement as being the dangerous and deadly and damning liars they are.

Kosti is not only a Reformed Baptist pastor in California now, he's also a cessationist, and he is spending much of his ministry exposing the

Word of Faith heresy and warning people about it. He had, a number of years ago, repented of that heresy that he was raised in and, as I said, is not only a

Reformed Baptist today but a cessationist. So Kosti Hinn is on the lineup. Daryl Bernard Harrison, a really gifted writer.

I've never heard him speak yet. I'm looking forward to it. He is now on the staff, just recently added staff, to John MacArthur's Grace to You ministry.

David Miller, what a wonderful preacher he is. Derek Thomas, who is surely known to the vast majority of Reformed listeners.

What an extraordinary writer and preacher and teacher he is. My friend, mutual friend of my guest,

Jason Wallace and mine, Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries is on the lineup. Dr.

Joel Beeky, president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. And the list goes on, but as you just heard moments ago, when

Todd Friel and Phil Johnson were doing their advertisement for the G3 conference,

John MacArthur has been added to the roster. So I am even more excited now.

And not only am I going to be attending this conference, but as I always do, I am setting up an exhibitor's booth at the

G3 conference, an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio. So if you have a church, power church, ministry, business, professional practice, special event, anything that you want to promote to the body of Christ, since they have over 5 ,000 people that attend this every year, this is an ideal place to set up an exhibitor's booth.

I hope you have one near mine. And so before they run out of room, and I have a feeling they're going to run out of room more quickly than ever before with the addition of John MacArthur at the conference,

I would urge you to go as quickly as you can to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

and not only register to attend, but register for an exhibitor's booth as well. Please tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen at Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Please tell them that. And also I have a final reminder before we return to our interview with Jason Wallace.

If you love Iron Trip and Zion Radio, you love sharing the free downloadable

MP3s with your family, friends, and loved ones, you love the guests and topics that we feature on the show that very often are not heard anywhere else, then please, if you don't want us to disappear, go to irontripandzionradio .com,

click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card, and you will help us survive and remain on the air if you do so.

You can also send in a check the old -fashioned way at... If you...

I'm sorry, I just got a very nice email from a listener, so I got distracted there.

You can send in a check the old -fashioned way to the address that appears on the screen when you click Support at irontripandzionradio .com.

Just make out the checks to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and send them to that address. Please, we are in urgent need of your finances.

We thank those in our listening audience who have helped us get through the month of July. The month of August is still pretty frightening, but we do thank all of you who have responded to the

SOS. A very small but very important handful of you have come to my rescue.

Thanks be to God. But if any of you who have not yet responded to that SOS have extra funds and you want us to remain on the air, please go to irontripandzionradio .com,

click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. And remember my caveats that I try to remember to remind you every day.

Never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church in order to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Never do that. Never put your family in financial jeopardy in order to give to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Those two things are commands of God. Providing for my radio show is not a command of God, obviously.

But if you have been blessed above and beyond your ability, if you've been blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for church and home, and you have extra money for benevolent purposes or recreational purposes or trivial purposes, then please use a portion of that money to help

Iron Trip and Zion Radio exist because we rely upon your donations and the dollars that come through our advertisers to remain on the air.

So just please keep that in mind, and please keep in mind we are more in urgent need than we have been in quite a while for your donations and advertising dollars.

If you want to advertise, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put advertising in the subject line. And please always remember also, if you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, if you need help finding a good, solid

Bible -believing church anywhere in the world, I do have lists of faithful, biblically solid churches globally, and I have already helped a number of people in the

Iron Trip and Zion audience find churches not only where they live but where they're vacationing or where their family, friends, and loved ones live.

So please, if you need help, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church home or something similar,

I need a church, looking for a church, whatever you want to put in that subject line that gives me the idea of what you're looking for, then please send that today, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest,

Jason Wallace, on atheism, and specifically on his documentary, The Atheist Illusion.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And we had, as you may remember,

Pastor Jason Wallace, a question from Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina, who wants to know if you are aware of what percentage today of atheists, especially obviously the apologists, how many of them, what percentage of them, claims to have once been

Christians. Well, quick note before that, Chris, if people would like to see the video, it's free.

It's on YouTube. The easiest way to find it is atheism .video. We have the

Mormon videos. We have lds .video for the gay Christian video dealing with the claims of what calls itself the gay

Christian movement. It's gaychristian .video. For Catholicism, it's romancatholic .video.

This is atheism .video. As far as the people that are former professing

Christians, it seems that probably about half of the ones that I've seen that are the outspoken ones would claim to have been

Christians before, some like Sam Harris, raised in a secular Jewish setting. Richard Dawkins was nominally

Anglican, but not, I don't think his parents were very devout at all.

You do have some people that I've seen that some of the most rabid ones do come out of Christian backgrounds.

Bart Ehrman, clearly. Bart Ehrman. In fact,

Bart Ehrman, if you see Bart Ehrman, like for instance, as you may know, there are cable networks that during Christmas and Easter especially, they will air documentaries on Jesus, some aspect of Jesus' life.

And typically for networks that despise the Bible and despise the actual

Jesus of the Bible, they will have agnostics and atheists primarily featured in these documentaries.

They'll have agnostics, atheists, and Tim Keller. And what's his name,

N .T. Wright, on these documentaries. But they will have Bart Ehrman featured on these.

And if you don't know who Bart Ehrman is, you might mistakenly think he is actually a

Christian because he believes that Jesus as a man actually existed. And when he's referring to archaeology and things like that, you might be deceived into thinking he's a

Christian. I mean, he was a Christian and was Professor Metzger's pride and joy.

He thought that Bart Ehrman was going to be a rising star in the evangelical Christian movement, etc.

Am I right on that? Yeah. And one of the videos on the back burner right now, we're trying to make an earnest plea to Muslims right now, but I want to do one called

The Bible vs. Bart Ehrman to try to bring together, you know, there's a number of things out there.

I think it's powerful to let people speak for themselves and then show what the reality is.

And Bart Ehrman, if you listen to him long enough, he makes completely ridiculous statements.

He hangs himself. And that's powerful in a book, but I think it's far, far more powerful if you can actually see him do it and show his contradictions and show just the lies of the man.

He's not an honest man. But in terms of people becoming more rabidly anti -Christian,

I think there's something to that. I mean, you look at the man who created

Playboy, Hugh Hefner. He was raised in a Pentecostal home.

Really? I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. Dan Barker was Pentecostal, and my grandmother was

Pentecostal. She prayed for me every day, and I came to faith 11 years after she died.

But we've seen in our own congregation, one of our former deacons, he started compromising.

He moved from us to a more theologically liberal

Presbyterian church, then he moved to an Episcopal church, and now he and his wife are self -described atheists.

I think there's something to be said for the fact that when people are exposed to light, it drives them crazy if they're unbelievers.

The more light they see, the more they hate it. One of the comments we got last week on the atheism video, right after we released it, this is from a professing

Christian. He says, Wow.

By the way, I've heard Armenians say that about Calvinists. Any god who selects some of humanity and overlooks others and condemns them to hell is that same monstrous god that you just described?

Yeah. Unbelief comes in a host of different flavors. To me, it's just a difference of fashion.

You can dress it up in liberal Catholicism, you can dress it up.

In Mormonism, you can dress it up in atheism. It's all the same hatred of the god of the

Bible. Now, one thing that's noteworthy, I think, is that we have a disproportionate...

A lot of people in other parts of the country, they have a vague sense there's a god, and they just don't worry about him.

But here in Utah, we're seeing a dramatic rise in atheism, because the

Mormon Church has been teaching people for years that the only alternative to Mormonism is atheism.

Well, when people begin to realize that the Mormon Church has been just lying to them, and they keep redefining themselves.

First, you had to be a polygamist, and now they're excommunicating polygamists.

Until 1978, it was by a revelation from God that blacks could not receive the priesthood, which every other male member received.

And they couldn't change it because it was a revelation of God. Well, 1978, all of a sudden, it's not a revelation anymore. And they just keep redefining things.

And now they're becoming... They're morphing into, honestly, the Episcopal Church, in terms of their being very welcoming of homosexuality.

They've repackaged themselves. Even their artwork looks like Episcopal stuff from 20, 30 years ago.

And so people are realizing the Mormonism lied to them. Well, they still believe the lie that if Mormonism isn't true, nothing else is.

It's one of the reasons we made the video, is that it's so big here. And I think that when people feel cornered, when they realize...

For the Mormons, crazy is to start with. Mormonism is not a theistic religion. Mormonism doesn't have a big

God who made everything. It has lots of supermen ruling little parts of an eternal creation.

Great way of putting it. And they think they're going to be supermen of their own planet someday. That's like...

They believe in something similar to... Even though they probably wouldn't describe it themselves this way, but henotheism?

Sort of, kind of. There are greater gods amongst the infinite sea of other gods?

Yeah, but I mean... The old line Mormons would even say that they don't worship Jesus. Wow. Because they see

Jesus as a different god. He's our elder spirit brother. He's not Heavenly Father. And so, the funny thing is, the deeper you go into Mormonism, the more it's really not that different from atheism.

Atheism puts forward a more naturalistic view up front, but then they bring in their exaltation to godhood a different way.

They think that evolution is now allowing us to establish purpose, and we can define things, and we can rise above.

And it's like, the more you listen to Dawkins, and the more you listen to the

Mormons, you realize this is the same basic story with different trappings.

By the way, speaking of Richard Dawkins, this is a good segue. I am going to play a clip from your video, your documentary, that should make any person with a conscience, that should make their skin crawl, a very disgusting and nauseating and monstrous discussion between Richard Dawkins and Peter Singer of Princeton University, two renowned atheists.

And this is, as I said, a clip from your documentary, and I want you to give your commentary after this clip is completed.

So, here we are with the clip of the Richard Dawkins interview with Peter Singer of Princeton University.

I think you must be one of the most moral people in the world. You certainly got one of the most logically thought -out ethical positions in the world.

And yet, precisely because of its logical consistency, you seem to get a lot of flack coming from two quite different directions.

Well, that's certainly true. On the one hand, I'm critical of the attitudes that people, most people in society have towards animals.

I think that we don't take the interests of animals seriously enough. And in a way,

I think it's an implication of Darwinism that we should take them more seriously, or at least that it breaks down some of the barriers that have separated us from animals.

But on the other hand, because I don't think that humans are special just in virtue of being a member of the species

Homo sapien, I think that if you have humans who are, for example, severely damaged at birth, that it's not wrong to end their lives.

So I think that in some cases, human beings don't have a right to life because they don't have the possibility of having a worthwhile and meaningful life.

And so, of course, I get flack from conservative moralists and conservative Christians from that perspective.

Well, that seems to me to be completely logically consistent. What about infanticide?

Strictly morally, I can see no objection to that at all. I would be in favor of infanticide. But I think

I would worry about... I think I would wish at least to give consideration to the person who says, well, where does it end?

And I know that Ingrid Newkirk, who's the head of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, has actually said that she would like her body to be eaten.

She's making a statement by that, you know, when she dies, that she would like her friends to barbecue her because she's trying to make the point,

I guess, that this is not so different from what people do. In fact, it's morally better. Steve Gould once speculated about the possibility of a hybrid between humans and chimps, and he added that he could think of no experiment that would be more immoral to do.

I couldn't get that. I mean, it seemed to me that it might be a very moral thing to do precisely because it would have the effect of breaking the barrier of the wall around homo sapiens.

Quite remarkable, quite chilling, revealing the evil hearts of these men.

I think that you could have readily heard this same discussion in a documentary, one of those films that we have seen that the

Nazis used to create, and I believe that they often, in Nazi Germany, would play these films that they created before movies in the movie theater that the general populace would see defending things like so -called mercy killing of the mentally retarded and disabled and deformed and so on.

But if you could comment on this, because it's really bone -chillingly grotesque, and I think a lot of people, if they hadn't heard these things coming from the mouths of these prominent atheists, they would tell you that you're lying.

Yeah, what you heard there was several excerpts run together. It's a little easier to see the separations in the video because of the changing imagery.

But we try to let these people speak for themselves. Dalkins tries to distance

Hitler from Darwin and says that it's a lie, that what the

Germans were doing in the Final Solution was actually Darwinian, and he just insists that it's not connected.

But when he gets pressed, he admits that, yeah, it really was connected. And we've got a clip of him saying, yes, you can say that, but this is why he says we can't live by Darwinian natural selection.

Darwinian natural selection supposedly tells us how we got here, but we're going to do something better because Darwinian natural selection, yes, it's survival of the fittest, it's genocide, it's all these things, but we have something better.

Well, the reality is it's not better. Like the Nazis, they think that they've evolved to a higher state.

We follow up that clip with an image that shows a quote from Peter Singer's Practical Ethics where he says the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee.

And part of the con of atheism, they can't live in a truly materialistic world and have any purpose.

We're not human. There's no point in going on.

And so they try to basically create purpose out of themselves.

It's deifying themselves. And they view the rest of humanity to a great extent as just animals, but they are divine.

And so do the Nazis. And so what does it come to? It comes to we're going to put ourselves in the place of God.

We're going to decide what rights there are. We're going to say that children who are born with some handicap, they have no right to life.

And it's not up to the parents. The state can decide for them. And the Nazis before World War II invented the term euthanasia, good death.

And so they, as you were saying, they put the chronically ill, the mentally retarded, and others to death.

That's what the eugenics movement, the eugenics movement in this country forcibly sterilized tens of thousands of women.

It was under state laws. Women were taken. They were strapped down to a table and butchered with the full consent of the

Supreme Court. The great hero of the atheist, the man who invented the term living constitution,

Oliver Wendell Holmes, said, I believe the quote was something along the lines, three generations of idiots is enough.

This was the Kerry Buck case in 1925. And so they have no problem with killing people.

They have no problem with cannibalism because the rest of us are just human.

I mean, we're just animals. There's no humanity to us. Humanity is an artificial construct.

Like Dan Barker says in the video, on a cosmic scale, we matter no more than broccoli matters.

But then you come around to the human -ape hybrids, which Stalin tried to do. Stalin literally tried to create human -ape hybrids for a number of reasons.

Wow, I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. One of the few historical things, actually, on the

History Channel anymore. When they're not bashing the Bible or presenting ancient aliens or pond stars, there's actually a little bit of history once in a while.

But, yeah, he wanted to create a...

I mean, if you could imagine guerrilla fighters. I mean, guerrillas are massively powerful.

Imagine... Right. In fact, I know that there were bodybuilders that were using guerrilla hormone at one point.

Yeah, so Stalin did this, but part of it also was part of Stalin's war against Christianity.

We document... You know, he was trying to destroy Christianity entirely, which the atheists lie through their teeth.

We give direct quotations, and we give the actual references to him saying he had a five -year plan for atheism.

Now he backed up from it when the Soviet Union started falling apart. But his plan was, within five years, to destroy every church in the country.

And we have footage of him destroying the cathedral there in Moscow. But he created the

League of the Militant Atheists. Three and a half million people vowed, bound with an oath, to destroy all religion in the

Soviet Union and throughout the world. And part of his motivation in trying to create human -ape hybrids was to prove

Darwin. And it didn't work out so well for him. We have to go to our final break right now.

It's going to be much more brief than the last one. Please, if you have a question to ask, send it in immediately to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

because we're rapidly running out of time. chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com Don't go away.

We'll be back after these messages with more of documentarian Jason Wallace and his new film known as The Atheist Illusion.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis. And World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org

forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, host of A Visit to the Pastor's Study, and I am so thankful to be part of the advertising family right here on Iron Sharpens Iron.

If you live on Long Island, or if you're visiting the metropolitan New York area, I invite you to join us for worship at The Haven on Sundays at 4 .30

p .m. We meet at the Ascension Lutheran Church facility, 33 Bayshore Road in Deer Park, New York.

At The Haven you'll find God's saturated singing, gospel -rich ministry, and great commission opportunities.

Learn more about us at thehavenli .com, and join us this Sunday at 4 .30

p .m., 33 Bayshore Road, Deer Park, New York. Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.

Iron. Criticizing. Iron. I think that's what it's called.

This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV, with Phil Johnson, of Grace to You, inviting everybody to come to the

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight for me.

So tons of stuff going on. Yeah. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me,

G3conference .com. G3conference .com. And now there's even more exciting news.

John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the G3 conference, Thursday, January 16th, through Saturday, January 18th, 2020.

Go to G3conference .com. G3conference .com. See you there. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225

Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. I'm Pastor Billy Linhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas.

And I'm thrilled to have joined the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio family of sponsors. We fully subscribe to the

Second Lenten Baptist Confession of Faith as a faithful summary of the most vital biblical truths.

Desire to worship the Triune God of the Holy Scriptures in spirit and truth, and seek to make

His glory known in the Concho Valley, West Texas, and beyond. Sovereign Grace PBC of San Angelo purposes to center our worship on the

Holy Scriptures and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in the hope that it will grow us in love and the unity of truth.

After Sunday services, join us for a fellowship meal, followed by our Ladies Fellowship and our

Children's Sunday School class. If you're looking for a church in West Texas that's serious about the Word of God and worship that pleases

Him, come visit us. For details about Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas, email sgbcsa at gmail dot com.

Or visit us at sgbcsa dot com. That's sgbcsa dot com.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the Body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus. Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333

That's 631 -385 -8333 Or visit liyfc .org

That's liyfc .org That's liyfc .org

Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually. Even many of the major Christian networks that include excellent, biblically faithful teachers on their lineup sadly often also include the worst of doctrinally dangerous heretics.

If you are a lover of the doctrines of sovereign grace, you need not fear listening 24 hours a day to FirstLoveRadio .org.

They feature Christ -centered programming from Reformed pastors and teachers you can rely upon for theological soundness and biblical faithfulness, such as Dr.

W .R. Downing, Dr. Peter Masters, Pastor Joe Jackowitz, Pastor Robert Gifford, Al Martin, Edward Dalpor, and more.

FirstLoveRadio .org also live -streams my Iron Sharpens Iron radio program daily.

Please stick around on FirstLoveRadio .org after Iron Sharpens Iron radio is over to continue being blessed by the unwavering proclamation of the gospel of sovereign grace.

Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org Welcome back.

We have a question for you, Pastor Jason Wallace, about atheism from Mary in Cork, Ireland.

She wants to know, what is the more biblically faithful model to evangelize, especially atheists?

Would it be the presuppositionalist model or the evidentialist model?

I think in general, I mean at our base, we have to embrace presuppositionalism that people know there's a

God. Now, there are people who are in a position that they have false information that you can correct them.

I don't think that you divorce presuppositionalism from evidence, but you don't allow the unbeliever to sit in judgment of God.

The tone that we've tried to make clear in the video, this idea that we have the knowledge, the power, the insight to judge

God is blasphemy. We know there's a God.

I think that you can share evidences with people if you look at the other videos we've done.

We deal with historical aspects of Mormonism and Roman Catholicism and things like this.

We deal in this video with the lies that atheists often tell.

But we don't let them assume that they can sit in the judgment seat over God.

They will be judged by God. We try to show that their whole worldview is a con.

It's an absurdity. That they can't live consistently with it, and they don't try.

They're desperately like a pressure cooker that's not sealed properly.

They're trying to hold the lid down. They're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. And this idea that if people just had all the facts, they would come to the right conclusion,

I think it is a farce. That doesn't mean we don't present the evidence, but we present the evidence in the context that we have truth behind us, but you don't get to sit in judgment over God.

You know there's a God. And the problem is not ignorance. The problem is rebellion.

And whenever I have a presuppositionalist such as yourself on my show,

I have to remind our listeners that there are great men of God, both living and in heaven, who were evidentialists such as R .C.

Sproul and John Gerstner, but now both in eternity with Christ. They even wrote a book on evidentialist apologetics.

So just to throw that in there, even though I agree with you, I am a presuppositionalist myself, but I thought that I'd just include that there.

And I have great respect for both men. I was in the same room with R .C.

Sproul and never had a chance to meet him. I did have the opportunity to meet John Gerstner before he passed. And they were brilliant men that I can't begin to stand next to their gifts and a host of things.

But I think that I think that they tended to view presuppositionalism through I don't think they had a proper view of it.

I think it tended to be very esoteric and very circular in their thinking.

And it's really not, in my opinion. Well, they're presuppositionalists now. Well, I want to make sure.

They're also Presbyterian now. Yeah, they're members of the

Free Presbyterian Church of Northern America, which predominantly practices Credo Baptism. Well, anyway, we are out of time now.

I want to make sure that our listeners have not only your church's website, but the website for the documentary.

First of all, GospelUtah .org is the website for Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah.

GospelUtah .org If you could give us the website again for The Atheist Illusion. Atheism .video

Atheism .video Thank you so much, Pastor Jason Wallace. I look forward to your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Perhaps we could even continue on this same subject or anything else you'd like to discuss. I want to thank everybody who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.