SRR 115 The Resurrection: John Piper & the Decline of Sola Fide at Final Judgment (6)

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November 27, 2019

00:02: I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone.
00:13: When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the error and combating the error.
00:24: We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so, the next few statements that I'm going to make,
00:30: I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.
00:37: We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style. I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing.
00:57: It's not hate. It's history. It's not bashing. It's the Bible. Jesus said,
01:06: Woe to you when men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way, as opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness.
01:21: It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. All right.
01:31: It's time to battle. You're listening to Simple Riff around the radio, where the
01:36: Bible alone and the Bible in its entirety is applied to all of life. My name is Tim and I have with me
01:43: Carlos and Hiram Diaz. So when I say what's up, guys, thank you for joining me today.
01:50: You guys ready to get started? Yeah, it's good to be back on the show. I know we've been on the hiatus. A lot of stuff has come up.
01:56: So we apologize to our listeners for delaying our episode feed.
02:02: But we're hoping to get back on in full swing here.
02:09: Looking forward to the episode. Yes, I'm here, guys. All right.
02:15: So today we are going to pick up on fatal flaw number six. This is from Carlos's article.
02:23: Carlos, it has such a long title and I haven't memorized it. What is the title of the article? I know it's when
02:28: Protestants err on the side of Rome. John Piper, Final Salvation and the
02:36: Decline and Fall of Sola Fide at the Last Day. There you go. It's a good title.
02:42: It's just long and I haven't memorized it. But I want to remind our listeners that this article was published on the
02:50: Trinity Foundation. But what happened is that the Trinity Foundation published part one of the article into a two part series on the
02:58: Trinity Review. So a lot of people are mistaken into thinking that they've read both part one and part two.
03:05: And maybe you have read both part one and part two on the Trinity Foundation. And I think that covers up through fatal flaw number three.
03:15: But the whole article is actually a two part series on Thorn Crown Ministries, which has six fatal flaws.
03:22: And so that's what we're looking at. We definitely encourage all of our listeners to go back and read both parts on our network.
03:32: And that way you can get the full article. So we are going to cover fatal flaw number six today.
03:39: But before we do that, Carlos and I wanted to give a big shout out to Steve Matthews and a big thank you to Steve.
03:46: Who recently flew down to El Paso and actually hung out with Carlos and myself for about a week.
03:55: He went on our men's retreat with the guys from our church. And it was a real delight to get to know
04:04: Steve, to see him in person. He's an awesome guy. I had a number of really great conversations with him.
04:13: And he actually went to Mexico with some friends of ours. He was doing some research, wanted to see firsthand what it was like down here on the border.
04:24: Especially since El Paso, Texas has become such a hotbed for the immigration debate that's going on right now.
04:31: So Carlos, do you have any thoughts about Steve's visit? Yeah, I'm very grateful for his visit.
04:38: He wanted to come down mainly to get a chance to meet us and hang out and had a blast with him.
04:44: I really enjoyed talking to him. I got to pick his brain out for a whole day. And we also talked a lot on the trip, on the retreat and on the trip and everything.
04:55: So I had a really good time with him. Look forward to doing that again sometime. And it was great getting to meet him personally.
05:03: One of my favorite lines that we were talking about is that we were talking about women and leadership.
05:11: And he said that he thinks Angela Merkel is a crackpot. It was good.
05:19: We had a really good discussion. Yeah, we did. About a bunch of stuff. So if any of our listeners are ever in the
05:26: El Paso area, just give us a shout out. And Hiram, where do you live, man?
05:33: I forgot. I live in Lewiston, Idaho. OK, so I guess if you're going there, contact
05:38: Hiram Diaz. Sure. So with that being said, I wanted to start off today's discussion.
05:44: We are going to talk about John Piper. You know, it's interesting that we've been talking about Piper a lot.
05:53: And there's so much to cover. Mark Jones recently just wrote another article in which he claims to vindicate
05:59: Piper. We're going to eventually get to Mark Jones and talk about Mark Jones' work and his perspective.
06:08: But, you know, it's interesting. This is a gospel issue. And so there are other things that we want to talk about.
06:16: But by and large, this is the most important thing that we are talking about right now.
06:22: So if we only get the opportunity to record, you know, here and there, especially with me, we're trying to finish out this series.
06:31: We are making this a series. And we're trying to cover this from all of the different angles. One of the things that Carlos' article does that I think is really great is that Carlos has looked at what are the logical implications of Piper's view.
06:46: And what are some of the things that we get with Piper's view. So if, for the sake of argument, we want to say that Piper's view is right, what are the implications?
06:54: And the implications, because it touches on justification, the implications are far -reaching.
07:02: But there was a video that was going around recently that I wanted to address. And I'd like to get your guys' thoughts on this.
07:12: And it's interesting that this was going around recently. It's a video of Kevin D. Young. I guess it was at a
07:19: G3 conference, Kevin D. Young, Together for the Gospel conference. And when
07:25: I first saw this video, I thought this was a very recent Together for the
07:31: Gospel conference. But what's interesting is that this was actually from 2016.
07:39: And so this sort of changes the narrative here. A lot of people – when
07:46: I saw this, I missed it. It says, Together for the Gospel 2016. This actually was
07:53: Kevin D. Young before the controversy erupted. And so in every controversy, there's a catalyst.
08:01: Martin Luther nailing the 95 Theses to the church door was what sparked the
08:07: Reformation. And John Piper's article in 2017 is what sparked this controversy really for a lot of people.
08:14: Although a lot of people were onto Piper way before that.
08:19: I think Pied Piper written by John Robbins was published in 2002.
08:25: But I want to play this because a lot of people were putting this up on social media via Twitter, via Facebook.
08:33: And it's really interesting because a lot of people take this as –
08:41: See, the big guys at Together for the Gospel, they get what
08:46: Piper's saying. You guys are misrepresenting him. You guys are straining a gnat, so to speak.
08:55: And a lot of people really felt vindicated by just this little clip.
09:01: Let me go ahead and play this for you. And then I'd like both of you guys to weigh in on it, okay?
09:08: Without holiness, without some evidence of grace having flown into you, of God's love transforming you, without that union with Christ whereby we receive the double gift,
09:25: Calvin calls it, of justification and sanctification, we ought not have confidence that we are on our way to glorification.
09:34: So how would you answer the question, are good works necessary for salvation?
09:44: I would argue, as reformed theologians have, they are necessary for salvation.
09:52: Not according to the necessity of merit. Good works are required as the means, not as the grounds.
10:02: As John Piper has said many times, as the fruit, not as the root. Not as the cause of new life, but as the necessary effect that life has been wrought in us.
10:17: And then it says entrusted with the gospel, and that's the clip.
10:24: But a lot of people were taking this as a vindication or affirmation that Piper is right.
10:33: I'd like to get your guys' thoughts on that. You want to go first, Carlos? Sure. I think, well, first of all, that's not what
10:49: Piper is teaching. Because Piper is teaching that our works are forensic evidence in God's courtroom.
10:56: So that's not what he's teaching. And I noticed that he didn't seem to quote a single reformer or Protestant in his favor.
11:04: He just kind of assumed it. I don't know if he does later or before in the sermon. But that's a big issue here that people don't really know what
11:13: Piper is actually saying. And it seems to be a big problem because he is talking about forensic evidence in God's courtroom.
11:21: And so that is talking about justification of the final judgment. Yeah, something
11:27: I noticed when he was talking was that he says that, well, he equates necessary evidence with means of obtaining salvation.
11:39: And that's messed up right there, too, as well, if you know what I mean. Instead of saying that the good works are the fruit of salvation, he says that they're fruit, yeah, but they're evidence.
11:51: And then he equates evidence with the means of obtaining heaven, which is like John Piper, as well.
12:00: Right. And Piper is plainly teaching that our good works are the means by which we get into heaven.
12:09: I think the clearest passage, if you understand it correctly, the clearest passage in Scripture is the one where Jesus himself refutes
12:19: Piper in Matthew 7, 21 through 23. Because in that passage,
12:26: Jesus says, And so Jesus is talking about the same thing that Piper is talking about, on that day, the final day.
12:42: And he says, Now take notice of what these people are appealing to.
12:57: They're appealing to their good works on that day. This is exactly what
13:03: Piper advocates that we will do, that we should do, that we're going to have to do.
13:08: And Jesus says, And so, you know, it's interesting.
13:20: I don't know where Kevin DeYoung would stand on this controversy now. I mean, I'm sure he hasn't spoken out against Piper.
13:29: So, you know, I can sort of guess as to where he's at in this whole debate. But that brings up another issue that's come up, and I just want your guys' input on this.
13:41: Because it's really interesting to see how this discussion has progressed.
13:49: When the controversy first erupted, a lot of people were saying, Well, I'm not really sure what Piper's saying or what he's trying to say.
13:57: Now, if you're a Piper fan and you're a Piper defender, it seems like a lot of people have the same argument.
14:05: And one of the arguments is basically that Piper is talking about salvation in a broader theological sense.
14:16: That the Bible speaks of salvation in two different senses. One is in a way that is synonymous with justification.
14:23: And so when it speaks of salvation in that sense, it always is by faith alone.
14:30: But there's another sense in which the Bible speaks of salvation, and that is within the broader theological sense, which includes all of soteriology, which is justification, sanctification, glorification.
14:45: And in our sanctification, we are not sanctified by faith alone.
14:54: And so, because we're not sanctified by faith alone, and sanctification is part of the broader aspect of salvation, in that sense we are not ultimately saved by faith alone.
15:07: So when Piper denies that we are saved by faith alone, that is what he's talking about.
15:13: As a matter of fact, this is even the response that I got from Phil Johnson, when
15:19: I sent some stuff to Phil Johnson, and he criticized me in my letter for this exact point.
15:28: He says, I was only able to scan your critique, I sent him my letter, he says,
15:34: I was only able to scan your critique, but there are significant problems with the way you make your case.
15:41: And he says, the first one, Sola Fide is a principle that applies to justification, not every aspect of soteriology.
15:47: Faith is the sole instrument of justification. You can't say that about sanctification, which necessarily entails works that we do, but you use the word salvation as if it were synonymous with justification.
16:02: And what's interesting is, I was pretty perturbed by this. Don't, you know, it's unfortunate that Phil was kind of triggered, not triggered, but I shouldn't use that word.
16:15: But Phil, one of his concerns was the fact that I'd used John Robbins in my article, and he's not favorable to John Robbins, so I think that might have poisoned the well.
16:27: But this was something that we've addressed in the past, and I think that it needs to be addressed again.
16:36: Do you guys have any thoughts on this particular argument that's sort of being used to give
16:44: Piper a pass? I don't think it's legit. I think it's committing the fallacy of equivocation.
16:54: And the reason why is because, yeah, there are two sentences in which we can speak of salvation broadly, right?
17:01: Like they say, salvation, standing for justification by faith alone, right? And then salvation meaning the entirety of, you know, justification, sanctification, glorification, the whole package, right?
17:14: But there's another sense in which we can talk about salvation as something that has been accomplished already, or something that is being accomplished in time, if that makes any sense.
17:26: Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah it does. That we are saved and that we're being saved.
17:31: Yeah, yeah, and so there's a distinction there, right? Because our salvation is complete in Christ.
17:38: Ephesians chapter 2 tells us explicitly that it's not by works. It excludes works altogether, and it's not talking about just justification in Ephesians chapter 2.
17:46: It's talking about salvation broadly, right? So to conflate the process of being saved right now, in which our salvation, you know, the aspects of our salvation, sanctification, and so far they're being worked out in time, with the actual achievement of salvation which
18:03: Christ alone accomplished for us, and that we obtained by faith alone, that's where I see a problem.
18:08: You see what I'm saying? John Piper isn't saying the things that these people are saying.
18:14: He's actually saying that we're saving ourselves. As much as people want to say that he's not saying this, because of the fact that he views works as forensic evidence that's going to be used when
18:31: Christ returns to determine, I guess, our state of holiness before we enter heaven, because he views them that way, we're working towards salvation.
18:40: See what I'm saying? So it's not what they're saying he's saying. What they're stating is orthodox.
18:46: What he's stating is not. You know what I mean? And they're doing so on the basis of an equivocation when it comes to the word salvation.
18:53: Right. And Carlos, you and I were talking about this on the phone the other day, and I'm hoping that you can relay to our listeners what you relayed to me.
19:06: And so I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, well, in case you haven't been tracking with us for the past, what is it now, five episodes?
19:16: And I read the article, we've been showing already five fatal flaws with Piper's view.
19:24: And we're showing, I think very clearly that Piper is not orthodox with respect to justification.
19:32: And we don't have a problem. I don't think any of us have an issue with saying that, yes, there is a sense in which salvation is referred to generically and specifically to justification.
19:44: But that's not what the issue is about. So that's not even the issue, first of all. It's kind of a red herring.
19:51: It's irrelevant. That's not what the issue is. And we don't have a problem with making that distinction ourselves.
19:56: We were saved, we're being saved, and we will be saved. But the problem here is that Piper is elaborating a doctrine that includes the final judgment with respect to a believer being judged and being weighed forensically, his works being weighed forensically at the final judgment to see if he has enough holiness to get to heaven.
20:24: That's talking about justification. That is 100 % justification.
20:30: That's why it's still, that's a final justification. That's what all the heresies before him about federal vision, they're all basically saying the same thing.
20:39: This is talking about justification. That's why we've been sticking to that issue. It's not talking about salvation in a generic sense.
20:45: He's talking about justification. And we've quoted numerous passages, Bible passages, numerous
20:52: Protestant authors disproving Piper's view and showing that he's completely at odds with the established
20:59: Protestant and biblical view of justification. Yeah, I really appreciate that.
21:04: And so what I wanted to let people know is that in my letter to my former church, to the members of Horizon Christian Fellowship, which sadly they were instructed not to read because it was divisive, but in that letter
21:27: I used the word primarily saved. I didn't use the word justified.
21:35: But we have already belabored this point that Piper is speaking of being saved in the sense of being justified.
21:43: And so a lot of people are making the word concept fallacy. They're saying, you know, it's like, oh, he doesn't use the word justification.
21:51: Well, that's the word concept fallacy because the concept is there.
22:00: It's identical. So we've already established that Piper is speaking of being saved in the sense of being justified.
22:12: And Carlos, we've pointed this out. His view of the final day, the last judgment, undermines every legal status that the believer has in justification.
22:22: It's an attack on justification. This was the first point that we made in our article that I made.
22:28: Actually, Tim Kaufman is the one who made the point in the article that I published with him on the Trinity Foundation that when
22:35: Piper says final salvation, he really means final justification. This is why he has no problem signing his name to Tom Schreiner's book, who uses the terms synonymously, final justification and final salvation.
22:47: We've pointed that out repeatedly. This is why in the material that my church was using, it says with reference to Piper's favorite passage in Hebrews.
22:57: I think it's Hebrews 12 .14. It says, this is not the holiness that we have in our initial justification.
23:05: Again, if you're speaking in terms of an initial justification, what does that mean?
23:11: That there's a future or final justification? This is exactly what Rich Lusk teaches, who is a federal visionist.
23:20: And so, the argument falls flat on its face. Carlos, you had something else that you wanted to say before we jump into your article?
23:31: I'm glad you brought up your old church because they remind me so much of the papacy.
23:38: Rather than telling people why your article is wrong, they just say, don't read it. They put you on the banned book list, just like the papacy does.
23:47: My wife actually brought up a really good point when we did the interview about you leaving the church.
23:56: Because in the same way that they basically kicked you out when you had already left, that's almost the same thing that the papacy did to Wycliffe when they exhumed his dead body, dug up his bones and burned them.
24:13: It's a total power trip and it's pathetic. It's anti -Christian. It's an unbiblical way of addressing issues and controversies.
24:24: That just says a lot about how they do church and how unbiblical it really is.
24:34: I'm very disappointed by that behavior. Well, I am too. It's going to be awkward the next time
24:39: I run into them. To say the least. It's interesting because not only did they do that, they said, don't read his article.
24:47: They said, go and read John Piper's article from 2017 and then listen to his clarification video.
24:59: And I was just like, oh my gosh, you've got to be kidding me. Because I actually referenced those two things.
25:05: Well, obviously the original article, but I referenced his clarification. And in my article, at the end of it,
25:13: I added links, a bunch of links. And two of the links that I added were one from Paul Flynn from Megiddo Radio and the other one from Pastor Patrick Hines from the
25:28: Protestant Witness, both reviewing Piper's clarification. And so it's absurd that they would actually do that.
25:38: It's a control factor. That's what cults do. And I'm not saying that they're a cult.
25:44: I'm not saying that they're a cult. I'm not saying that. I'm saying this behavior is exactly what cults do.
25:51: Yeah, no, it's funny. Don't listen to the Protestant. Don't listen to the Reformer. Follow the magisterium that we give you.
25:59: It's so like Rome, it's ridiculous. It's a shame. It's a shame, but yeah, it is what it is.
26:07: So yeah, I guess we can jump on to the fatal flaw number six now. So let's get into that.
26:15: I call it deadening the resurrection. And as you kind of alluded already, Tim, we're talking about how, in the article,
26:23: I'm talking about how Piper undermines so many things in the believer's legal status and positional status and just life, everything.
26:35: He destroys basically everything that the believer has won already in Christ. And another one of those things that he completely screws up is the resurrection.
26:45: And so let's get let's dive into that now. So this is kind of all of this is connected, as we've already kind of been showing.
26:55: This is all connected, tied together and continuing from the previous flaw where we talked about Piper basically kicking everybody out of heaven and putting back in the judgment line when the final judgment comes.
27:08: And as if that wasn't bad enough. So he actually affirms that when believers, that when
27:15: Christ comes back, we will receive our glorified bodies. He says that very clearly.
27:22: He says when the church in Thessalonica lost believing loved ones, the main comfort that Paul offered was not that they were with Christ as true and wonderful as that is, but that they would be raised bodily from the dead in time to participate physically in the coming of Christ.
27:36: So he affirms that the first thing basically the first thing Christ is going to do is bring us all back from the dead believers.
27:45: And so he says who we who are alive and remain until the coming of the
27:50: Lord shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. And so he's affirming the right thing there.
27:56: But then the problem becomes when he tries to reconcile this with believers facing
28:02: Christ, the final judgment. This is where he makes the fatal another fatal flaw. And he says and I think we've already
28:10: I've already quoted this before. But he says before we enter the final state of glory with our resurrection bodies on the new earth, we will stand before Christ as judge.
28:23: The deeds of this life will be the public criteria of judgment in the resurrection because our works are the evidence of the reality of our faith.
28:33: And so this blew my mind when I when I read this, when I kind of read this again, because we started talking about this in the fatal and the previous fatal flaw.
28:42: It made me realize something, because I said I wasn't sure if Piper really knew what what what he was implying, that are you really saying that you want to take people out of heaven, kick them out of heaven, put him back in the judgment line?
28:59: Everybody, we're talking everybody, Moses, Paul and everybody else who is already in heaven and put him back in the judgment line.
29:08: To be evaluated forensically for their works, to see if they have enough works to get back into heaven.
29:15: I thought Piper hadn't really thought that through. But after reading this quote, it kind of it just the concern just skyrocketed even more, because it seems like he actually does know what he's he he knows like he's actually thought this through.
29:31: And that's what makes this so much worse, because he has thought this through. He's literally saying before we enter the final state of glory with our resurrection bodies on the new earth, we will stand before Christ as judge.
29:45: So it seems to me like Piper has actually thought this through. He's actually saying that yes, he when the final judgment comes, everybody in heaven is going to get kicked out.
29:58: And you're going to get put back in the judgment line. And you're going to have to face God and prove your works to see if you have enough to go to heaven.
30:07: And when you when you tie this together with what he said before about some of them, some believers not making it because they fail to love their fellow believers.
30:18: You have zero hope of ever getting back in, even if you are already there.
30:24: And seeing this is what people don't understand. Like we're quoting to you Piper's own words.
30:29: And he went back and said this, that thing about fellow believers failing to love their fellow believers and going to hell because of it.
30:45: And so now you're getting this, where Piper is literally saying without any reservation apparently, that he has no problem saying that, yeah, everybody who is in heaven right now is going to get kicked out and put back into judgment line.
31:02: From Moses, from Abraham, all the way to the last sheep that gets saved and dies before Christ comes back.
31:12: It's astonishing. He's actually thought this through. This is what makes it all the more concerning because I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
31:20: But now it seems to me like he's talking about the final state of glory. So he's saying, you know, it sounds like that's what he's saying.
31:27: You know, believers in heaven have glorified spirits, but they haven't been fully glorified yet. And so it's like,
31:33: I can't believe this guy. He has no problem saying that. It's like, I don't know what to say to that.
31:40: Yeah, I was going to say, I think part of the, you know, we talked about this a little bit too last time or in the fifth one.
31:46: Something that we talked about was how some guys are given a pass because, well, because they agree with a lot of people on other topics that are not related to the one thing where they're really, really messed up at.
31:59: You know, so we talked a little bit about Doug Wilson and how now with the whole social justice warrior thing going on, how
32:05: Doug Wilson is anti -social justice and people give him a pass. You know, and there are tons of people saying, well, federal revision's not heresy.
32:11: You don't know anything about federal revision. And you'll get this constant shifting of the goalposts in order to justify their liking of this individual when you point out that they're unorthodox when it comes to the main thing, which is not social justice, which is not complementarianism, right?
32:26: That's the thing with John Piper, complementarianism, when it's not, you know, take your pick. The main thing, those aren't the main things.
32:35: The main thing is the person and work of Christ. And I think that's something that we see with the
32:41: Piper incident. It's like, Piper is clear, clear enough.
32:47: And if he's not clear enough, he's confusing. And both of those are really bad. You know what I mean? But I think once, like you've done, once you do the research on Piper, you realize that he's clear enough with the fact that he's being unorthodox.
32:58: But people hear what they want to hear because they admire him for whatever reason. And I don't think it has anything to do with, really, with what he's teaching in the most important area, the person and work of Christ.
33:10: It has to do with something else. Like, I know people that love John Piper because he is complementarian, you know, or because he's one of the first people who introduced him to, let's say, somebody like, you know, introduced him to Calvin or introduced him to, who's the person that he really likes?
33:30: Jonathan Edwards, right? And so they have this affection for him for some other reason, but it's like, he's clear enough on what he's saying.
33:40: And I'm saying this in relation to what you said, how people don't see it, you know, because I think they hear, well, he said
33:47: X, Y, and Z, and that's good enough for me. You know, like with Doug Wilson, people saying, well,
33:52: Doug Wilson says he affirms justification by faith alone. That's good enough. And it's like, that's not good enough because he redefines the terminology.
33:59: And when you look at what he's really saying, he's affirming a false gospel. But sadly, people hear what they want to hear.
34:06: You know, they have itching ears. That's a good point. That's exactly what Mark Jones does, too.
34:12: He's Piper's biggest defender, and he keeps quoting, he keeps using Puritans and these other reformed guys to interpret
34:19: Piper. And it's like, why, why are you doing that? Piper's teaching is very clear, and it's not the same thing, you know?
34:27: And I think you're right. That's a very big problem where people keep assuming that this is what he means, what these other guys are saying.
34:33: And that's not what he's saying. It's not what he's saying at all. So hopefully people will say, yeah.
34:41: I was going to say another person that I brought up was Richard Baxter. You know, and it's the same issue. And Richard Baxter has been popular for hundreds of years now.
34:50: You know what I mean? Even since the Reformation era, a little bit after Calvin, if I'm mistaken, like in the late 1600s, 1700s, somewhere around there.
34:58: I forget exactly what he was writing. But even John Owen knew that Richard Baxter was a heretic.
35:04: But to this day, Richard Baxter's works are being promoted, and people have mixed opinions.
35:10: Well, there are no mixed opinions to have about the guy. He taught justification by faith in works. He was a heretic.
35:17: But because he wrote a book on, what was it, on practical living. The Reformed pastor?
35:23: As a pastor. Yeah, the Reformed pastor, yeah. And because he has these little, these phrases that sound good, and these sentences that sound good, people cling on to him.
35:33: And, you know, they hear what they want to hear. And they ignore the bad stuff.
35:38: And people do it with other guys, too. You know, like C .S. Lewis. That's something that John Robbins helped me see in his, when he, you know, in the paper that he presented,
35:46: C .S. Lewis in Heaven, I think is the title of it. You know, it's something I didn't really pay attention to until he brought everything together.
35:53: He's like, this is what he really teaches. He might be good in explicating philosophical ideas. He might be good in presenting general arguments for the existence of God.
36:03: But here are all the heresies that he believes, wholeheartedly. But people hear what they want to hear. Well, and that's exactly what people are doing with Doug Wilson right now.
36:14: I mean, you have a lot of people like Jeff Durbin and James White who are defending him.
36:20: And, like you already said, you know, he says, I believe in justification by faith alone, but he redefines it.
36:26: And it's like, that's exactly what they're doing. But going back to Mark Jones, I was going by his
36:34: Facebook page and I just wanted to read my favorite Mark Jones quote to you guys.
36:40: He says, almost finished a chapter on good works in relation to salvation.
36:46: So he's apparently writing a book. And he says, summary, John Piper is more reformed than the allegedly reformed folk who criticize him.
36:58: So, yeah, I guess denying the covenant of works and then turning the covenant of grace into a covenant of works makes you reformed.
37:10: So that is by far my favorite. He's more reformed than us, guys, even though he denies the covenant of works.
37:19: You can't be reformed and deny the covenant of works and then turn the covenant of grace into a covenant of works.
37:25: So that's our quote of the day from Mark Jones, who, by the way, we had asked to discuss this.
37:35: I think Pastor Hines had offered to debate him. He said
37:41: Mark Jones said no. We had asked him to come on to the show with us.
37:48: He said no. So, you know, we don't have doctorate degrees. So Mark Jones's reply to me was he says, yeah,
37:58: I've published a lot in print on this. So I'm probably not going to get involved unless it was a top reformed scholar.
38:05: But I can't think of a single reformed scholar who would differ from my view, which is the classical reformed view.
38:13: So that's when I talk to him, that's our Scott Clark. No, apparently our
38:19: Scott Clark is, you know, a lot of people are saying a lot of Jones fans are saying that he is not an authority on this.
38:27: Yeah, that's retarded. Of course. And they say the same thing about J .B. Fesco. Yeah. And everybody else at Westminster, California.
38:33: Yeah. And they've been saying that since about the 1970s, 1980s, since the Norman Shepard controversy.
38:39: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. That kind of response, though, honestly, it's pitiful.
38:46: I'm sorry. It's just reprehensibly pitiful. It's like that's like you inviting someone to a party and they say, well,
38:53: I'm not going to go unless, you know, unless all of the elite rugby players are going to be there. Like, really, dude, as a
39:00: Christian, really? I mean, because. All right. This is something I wish people would get through their heads.
39:06: It doesn't matter how many PhDs you have. If you're saying something that's self -contradictory, you're wrong, period.
39:12: You see what I'm saying? And it just doesn't matter how many PhDs you have. So for him to say, well, I'm not going to go unless there's a top reform scholar there.
39:19: First of all, are you a top reform scholar? If you are, so what?
39:25: You know, and secondly, if you're contradicting yourself or if your doctrine contradicts itself on the basis of scripture, which is higher than all the
39:31: PhDs that you have and all the letters you have behind your name, you're wrong. And I don't have to listen to you. And I can point out that you're wrong.
39:37: And that goes for the whole body of Christ. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this was the whole reason that William Tyndale published the
39:46: Bible in the common tongue was so that the plow boy would know more than the Pope. And I'm not at all saying that I know more than Mark Jones.
39:54: But, you know, your credentials, your doctorate degree, it offers you no immunity from from being wrong.
40:05: If you're wrong, you're wrong. And a simple plow boy like me can can look at the word of God and say, no, that doesn't that doesn't fit.
40:13: One of the things that is really frustrating about statements like that, and I've heard this from other people who profess to be
40:19: Calvinist, is if you are a Calvinist, if you understand that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of salvation comes by the illumination of the
40:28: Holy Spirit, by God's sovereign decree, right? Then you know that your intelligence is just a means.
40:37: And God, God might not even use that means to get to the end, which is the knowledge of who he is. You see what
40:43: I'm saying? And I just don't see how men who call themselves Calvinist can can think that you need to have a certain level of education and training in order to understand truths that are necessary for salvation.
40:57: When scripture tells us that it's that's not the case or to even have a seat at the table.
41:02: And that's exactly it. And I think one of Mark Jones's first articles that he wrote, he basically said, if you don't have peer reviewed papers, if you if you don't have this, this or that, then, you know, you can't really come to the table and and discuss this.
41:21: That's paraphrasing. Yeah, that sounds familiar. Shut your mouth. You don't you're not a part of the magisterium.
41:29: You know, and I think hopefully this will make you feel better, Tim. What he said that recently, that's one of the stupidest things that for being a reformed scholar with a
41:41: PhD, that has got to be one of the stupidest things I've heard all year. And we're going to if the previous five flaws didn't do it for you just yet, you're going to see just how stupid that remark is going to sound when we get into this, because right now.
41:59: So we just established what Piper is saying with respect to believers being deceased, getting put back in the judgment line.
42:05: But get this because he because Piper emphasizes that believers will face
42:11: Christ as judge in his own words, Christ as judge, and that their works, quote, will be the public criteria of judgment in the resurrection.
42:22: That is a necessary forensic demonstration that they are inherently righteous enough to enter heaven.
42:29: That's another allusion to his what he said previously about you need inherent righteousness in order to go to heaven.
42:37: Piper not only nullifies Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them by overlaying it with the believers own inherent righteousness as a second layer of final justification.
42:49: Okay, that's what we just talked about before. He also deadens the resurrection and glorification of believers.
42:56: So if all the previous stuff wasn't bad enough, he still destroys the doctrine.
43:03: He completely undermines the doctrine of the resurrection and the glorification of believers as if that wasn't bad enough.
43:10: This is astounding how destructive this heresy is. So let's dig in here.
43:19: His view of the judgment of believers as a final salvation, quote, unquote, as a forensic judgment of good works undermines the resurrection itself because the resurrection itself is what will be, quote, the evidence of the reality of our faith.
43:39: Not our works like Piper claims. It's the resurrection that's the evidence of the reality of our faith.
43:47: You see, and this is what is so remarkable because people just sometimes need to back up, back out of the tree and look at the forest even for a little bit and try to reconcile this with the other basic doctrines that the
44:00: Bible is teaching. What good is it for believers to receive a glorified body prior to final judgment as Piper himself affirms if Christ is still going to evaluate their personal holiness as a judge to see if they're worthy of entering heaven.
44:26: You see how it's basically mocking the resurrection like that. What's the point of that?
44:32: So the resurrection means nothing. It means nothing until you prove your works to Christ on the final day to determine to see if you have enough inherent.
44:45: I hope people are seeing this. This is why it undermines everything that is established in Christ from his imputed righteousness to the legal status of justification itself, the resurrection even.
45:00: Everything that is established in Christ is completely undermined. He spits on it completely by saying this nonsense.
45:08: And I can't believe Mark Jones has the nerve to defend this stuff. This is trash. Well, you know, I was just looking up Mark Jones and I realized that he's one of the people that defends
45:17: Norman Shepard and Shepard -Gaffin School of Theology.
45:23: Oh man. Wow. Yeah, so that explains his whole, you know, stick it up for John Piper.
45:28: Well, and it's interesting because I've asked people who follow Mark Jones if he's a federal visionist and basically they all say no.
45:40: So that's an interesting dynamic. But yeah, I have seen him defend Norman Shepard, which is,
45:47: I think, a dumb thing to do. But Carlos, I want you to touch on something here.
45:55: A lot of people say, oh, Piper is speaking of glorification, right? And that's what we're addressing right now.
46:02: And the other thing is that a lot of people say that Piper is speaking of vindication, the doctrine of vindication.
46:10: So do either of those things touch on this right here or are we going to talk about those things later?
46:18: And we can always talk about them later again if you want to or we can touch on it here.
46:27: Yeah, well, we can touch on the vindication part because Piper does affirm that our works will, well, what is he saying?
46:34: He says that our works will vindicate us, which is, again, that's not biblical.
46:41: He says our works will be rewarded on the final judgment, that they will be rewarded and that they will vindicate us.
46:47: But again, the problem, he's not just talking about vindication.
46:54: He is talking about justification because he is literally saying we are going to enter the courtroom of Christ, face
47:02: Christ as judge and be forensically evaluated to see if we have the inherent righteousness required to get to heaven.
47:11: People need to get this and the Piper's defenders are just not getting this.
47:18: They are not understanding what Piper is actually saying. I don't know what it is because it's very clear.
47:29: It's very clear. What he is saying is unmistakably clear and this is why it's so dangerous because this is why it's kind of a pun, the title of this section.
47:42: He's deadening the resurrection. You might as well be dead and not be resurrected because it means nothing.
47:50: To Piper, the resurrection means absolutely nothing. Forget the fact that you're already glorified.
47:56: That's supposed to be your glorification. We are glorified as soon as Christ comes back and resurrects us.
48:03: That is the glorification that the Bible is talking about. Our spirits and our bodies will be fully glorified on that when
48:10: Christ comes back and brings us back from the dead. Can I just say something that's really, really stupid about this?
48:19: If you just think about this for two seconds, you start to realize just how corrupt of a system this creates because Piper is saying that we'll have to present our good works to prove that we're really his.
48:34: Just think about how stupid that is because your resurrected body will tell everybody around you that you really belong to Christ, that you really are his.
48:51: Think about how dumb that is to then think that you're going to have to present your good works to show everybody that you really truly were his.
49:05: Not just that. Not just that. That you can actually go to heaven. The resurrection, that's exactly the point that you're making.
49:17: The resurrection will be the glorious public demonstration that believers are already validated by God through faith alone in Christ alone and therefore will not be judged but will be vindicated, acquitted, and rewarded accordingly.
49:38: That is a complete mockery of the resurrection. You might as well be dead because the resurrection for Piper means nothing.
49:45: It doesn't matter. Until you prove yourself at the final judgment with your works, the resurrection means nothing for you.
49:52: But you know what? I want to ask you guys something. Would you mind if I read something and you tell me if this is an accurate portrayal of what
50:00: Piper believes? It's not too long. Go for it. And it ties into what we're talking about here. Is this from Piper?
50:07: Or is this a game? We'll get to that. I want to see if you guys would agree with me.
50:14: We've played this before. Tell me if you think this is a good summary of what he's teaching. The books of record in heaven are opened and the names and the deeds of men are registered to determine the decision of the judgment.
50:27: And as the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God, beginning with those who lived here first on earth.
50:36: The cases are presented of each successive generation. And every case is looked over.
50:43: So the judgment will show those who are authentic believers in God from those who are not. All who have truly repented of sin and by faith claim the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven.
50:57: And they become partakers of the righteousness of Christ and their characters are to be found in harmony with the law of God. And their sins will be blotted out and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life.
51:08: Does that sound like it's in line with Piper, what he's teaching? Yeah, pretty much. Okay, that's called the investigative judgment from the
51:15: Seventh -day Adventist cult. Wow. Yeah, and I was reading, I was kind of changing the language a little bit.
51:21: Yeah, I was trying to make it a little bit more readable, you know, for... It's like, hey, let me reveal to you
51:30: Bernie Sanders' tax plan. And then all of Bernie Sanders are like, that's awesome.
51:35: But did you know that that's really Trump's tax plan? Well, you know, because you guys were talking about it and it struck me.
51:41: I was like, I heard this before and it's not just Romanism. Like, that's Seventh -day Adventist theology because that's what they believe as well.
51:49: Like, and of course, they believe in the heresy of soul sleep and annihilationism and all that. But they do believe that the righteous will be resurrected.
51:56: Those who have had faith in Christ or profess faith in Christ will be resurrected. And they'll be judged on the basis of their works at the resurrection.
52:02: And this is what Piper's teaching, the same thing. And their entrance into heaven is determined by whether or not they have lives that are worthy enough.
52:10: It's the same sort of thing that Piper's teaching. Yeah, and this is going to get interesting now because Michael Horton is an interesting character in this whole debacle.
52:22: Earlier, we exposed his utter hypocrisy for claiming to be some reformed scholar, top -notch professor, all this stuff.
52:34: And yet celebrating, lauding the work of a Roman Catholic apologist who is an apostate
52:41: Presbyterian. But that's not to deny that Horton doesn't say good things.
52:48: He has said many good things and many good things that we would all agree with. And a lot of people try to claim that Horton is on either side of this issue.
52:59: We've kind of touched on this already. I know Tim and I, we already talked about this. Both parties try to claim
53:04: Horton on their side. But the quote that I'm going to read to you is going to,
53:10: I think, remove any shadow of a doubt as to whether he really would agree with Piper on this.
53:17: On this issue specifically. So here's the quote. There is no future aspect to justification itself.
53:25: In justification, the believer has already heard the verdict of the last judgment. That by itself already contradicts
53:33: Piper. That's it. That itself contradicts Piper because in justification you've already been rendered not guilty.
53:42: And according to Piper, you can't be declared worthy of heaven until you get evaluated for your personal holiness.
53:50: And so, that itself. But let's keep going. Glorification is the final realization, not of our justification itself, but of its effects.
54:01: Furthermore, its effects. Notice he's saying the effects of our justification, not the effects of our works.
54:10: Like Piper says. Okay. I need to slow down here because I'm finding a bunch of stuff.
54:17: I'm finding even more stuff that he's contradicting Piper on. Furthermore, this future event discloses the true identity of the covenant people.
54:28: He's talking about glorification. As an act of the cosmic revelation of the justified children of God, or ecclesiology, and actually transforms the whole justified person into a condition of immortality and perfect holiness, or soteriology.
54:45: The great assize awaiting the world at the end of the age is therefore not with respect to justification, but to glorification.
54:53: All who have been justified are inwardly renewed and are being conformed to Christ's image.
54:59: But their cosmic vindication, get this, as the justified people of God will be revealed in the resurrection of the dead.
55:11: This is Horton saying this. Okay. Yeah. Amen. Amen. All you
55:16: Horton fans can calm down. We like Horton. Giving him a kudos.
55:23: Thumbs up. He's dead on point. Amen Horton. Yeah. Yeah. I mean he's still a hypocrite, but amen to this.
55:34: So, that's, I mean, and this was before I even read Horton. I wasn't expecting to find this.
55:41: And here it is. It's in his systematic theology, the, what is it called?
55:47: The Christian faith. So, and, okay,
55:52: I'm going to continue. Notice, okay,
55:58: I kind of want to, maybe I should capitalize or should I just keep reading? Capitalize. Capitalize. Okay. All right.
56:03: Let's capitalize. So, listen to what he said. Our cosmic vindication on the day when
56:13: Christ glorifies us will be the resurrection. Not our works presented at the last judgment.
56:21: Not anything to do with our works. It's the resurrection. That's totally going against what
56:29: Piper teaches right there. And it's not only defending the biblical view. It's utterly refuting
56:34: Piper's view. This is what we've been taught. Piper's just dead wrong. Dead wrong about yet another vital doctrine of the
56:41: Christian faith, the resurrection. And so, let's, it gets worse.
56:47: Sadly, it gets worse. And I keep saying that and it's true. I mean, it really does get worse.
56:52: And just as it is appointed for man to die once. Sorry. And after that comes judgment.
57:03: So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time. Not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
57:12: Hebrews 9, 27 to 28. That verse itself basically refutes Piper too. He's not going to deal with sin.
57:20: He's not going to judge believers when he comes back. He's going to glorify them in the resurrection.
57:26: I can't believe something so basic as that. Piper is deliberately, he is aware of this and he's deliberately insisting on preaching a false teaching that is completely mocking and deadening the resurrection.
57:44: It is astounding how destructive this heresy is. And so Horton continues.
57:49: Let me just read this last part and then we can discuss it. Through faith in Christ, the verdict of the last judgment itself has already been rendered in our favor.
58:02: It's not necessary to wait for the final judgment to test your works to see if you have enough to get to heaven.
58:08: It's already been rendered in our favor. But as our meager growth in holiness and the unabated decay of our bodies attests, the full consequences of this verdict awaited decisive future completion.
58:21: We receive our justification through believing what we have heard. We will receive our glorification by seeing the one we have heard face to face.
58:30: Case closed. Amen. And you know, you said that this deadens the resurrection.
58:37: We also need to point out that this destroys the gospel. So if you're turning in to Semper Reformanda Radio for the first time, this is the first episode.
58:46: We are saying that Piper is destroying the gospel. His doctrine of final salvation destroys the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
58:59: And yeah, that's really, really good stuff there, Carlos. I like it when you get fired up like that.
59:04: It destroys – yeah, I've been waiting for this moment, man.
59:10: This is one of my favorite sections. This is one of my favorite sections. Piper destroys not just the gospel.
59:17: He destroys the resurrection, the heavenly state of believers who are already dead.
59:23: He destroys adoption. He destroys sanctification. He destroys justification. He destroys just about every status pertaining to the believer.
59:34: Assurance. All of it. It's all down the toilet. It's in the trash. Because he insists on believers being judged forensically for their works at the last judgment.
59:44: It's amazing how destructive this heresy just – it destroys everything underneath it.
59:51: Like everything. It's astounding. And so what is this, you know – and let's read the
59:59: Bible. It's always good to read the Bible, right? So what happened after Christ's death when, quote, "...the
01:00:06: earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and prepared many."
01:00:18: That was Matthew 27, 51 -53. As you know, when Christ died, there was a resurrection.
01:00:24: And so this is just a foretaste of what will happen when
01:00:31: He comes back. See, because – and look at what happened. So those who witnessed
01:00:36: Jesus' death and the transitory resurrection – it wasn't the final resurrection. It was a transitory resurrection because they still died.
01:00:43: They died again, basically. But those people who witnessed that event feared greatly, saying,
01:00:53: How much more earth -shattering will the final resurrection and glorification of all believers be at Christ's return?
01:01:03: When Christ shows up – see, this is what is so astonishing. When Christ shows up and He glorifies us in an instant, all of us, the people who are alive will be instantly glorified, and the people who are dead in Christ will be raised to a new body, a bright, shining body that's going to look even brighter and shinier than Moses when
01:01:24: He descended from the mountain. Not even Moses had a glorified body then, and people were afraid to look at Him.
01:01:30: Can you imagine what it will look like when our glorified bodies are on display?
01:01:38: What doubts are you going to have about where you're going? Or about having to prove where you're going to go?
01:01:45: This is so – I can't find the right word to say how stupidly heretical this doctrine just completely destroys, deadens the resurrection.
01:01:57: I would love to ask people like Mark Jones, What do you make of it? You know,
01:02:03: I don't even think they've thought this through, to be honest. And that's what's also really – this is what's so remarkable about these guys, because they're not seeing it.
01:02:11: I've read a lot of Mark Jones' articles trying to defend Piper. He doesn't even bring any of this stuff up.
01:02:19: It's like, what are you going to say to this? You can't refute – you can't defend Piper's view with the
01:02:24: Bible. Like, you just can't. This is so utterly nonsense. You know, Carlos, one of the things that struck me when
01:02:31: I was reading Mark Jones' responses to the claims being made about Piper, against Piper, against his orthodoxy, one of the things that shows up in his writing is – and this – it's frustrating to read this, but he says, when
01:02:47: I read Piper, what I hear is dot dot dot. Yeah. I don't care about what you – That's what he constantly says.
01:02:52: I don't care about what you hear. Tell me what Piper's actually saying. You know what I mean? That's like you listening in on a conversation you're two rooms removed from, and saying, well,
01:03:01: I think they're talking about sports. And when you really get into the room, they're talking about politics or something. Way off the mark.
01:03:07: Yeah. If you're really going to claim to be super scholar, if you're going to claim that you do everything in Latin, or you go grocery shopping in Latin, and you speak to the gas and tent in Koine Greek, and you write your grocery list in Hebrew, if you're going to be super scholar to that level, you can't write an article saying, well, what
01:03:30: I hear is – because what you're saying essentially is I think this is what he's saying, and that's good enough for me.
01:03:35: And this is tying into what you're saying. That's not what Piper's saying.
01:03:41: And simply saying this is what I think he says is not dealing seriously with what he's saying. That's why the serious issues that you're bringing up in your article are not being touched upon by him or by other people because they think they're hearing
01:03:54: Piper say something, and that's good enough for them. Exactly. Yeah. My new response when people say, have you read
01:04:00: Mark Jones? I tell them, yeah. You need to ask Mark Jones. Have you read these articles?
01:04:06: Because they're not dealing with the actual issues that we're dealing with. So Carlos, tell us how you really feel.
01:04:15: Don't hold back. I'll try to. I'll try to. I'm trying not to. And it gets even worse.
01:04:25: I love that. That's what's so bad about this, man. You're like the opposite of an infomercial, which is like, but wait, there's more.
01:04:31: It gets better. You're like the opposite of that. This is infuriating.
01:04:39: And just a remark about these intellectual elites. It's amazing. You can know
01:04:44: Greek backwards and forwards and be a spiritual moron. And if you want some proof of that, and I'm not saying
01:04:52: Mark Jones is a moron, but he's a very smart guy. He's a very smart guy. But his pride and his haughtiness in saying, oh,
01:05:00: I don't deal with these plowboys, these lowlifes that don't have any published material.
01:05:06: I deal with the sophisticated spiritual folks up here that are on my level. He just made himself a fool by defending this heretic, this raging heretic who has a pile of destructive heresies, destroying everything from the resurrection to justification, the gospel and beyond, to infinity and beyond.
01:05:27: And this is what you get.
01:05:33: This is what you get. And I hope people see this, and I hope people see just how bad they really look.
01:05:42: But we're going to keep going because we're not even done yet. I still have a couple sections left.
01:05:47: This isn't even the last of it. Go for it. And if that wasn't bad enough, so if that wasn't bad enough, here's what's more.
01:06:00: And Tim, you already kind of touched on this, but the only people who are going to be looking into their good works, quote -unquote, as public evidence, quote -unquote, in Piper's terms of their faith, at the last judgment are the self -deceived legalists in Matthew 7, 21 -23, who would rather cover themselves with useless fig leaves and the filthy rags of their own righteousnesses than with the blood -imperfect righteousness of the
01:06:30: Lamb. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, done many wonders in your name?
01:06:40: And I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness. The very people who
01:06:47: Piper is claiming, the very thing that Piper is claiming you're supposed to do on the final judgment is the very people that Christ himself condemns for being legalistic hypocrites.
01:07:00: And so, I mean, what else do we need to say? Let me add something to that.
01:07:05: What else do we need to say? Because starting in verse 21, it says, Not everyone who says to me,
01:07:10: Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. So that's what we're talking about. We're talking about getting into heaven.
01:07:17: Okay, we're all on the same page. We're with Piper. We're all talking about the same thing. This is the context of which this discussion is about, getting into heaven.
01:07:28: He says, But the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Now, a lot of people misunderstand that, and so we have to read
01:07:36: Scripture in light of Scripture. What does it mean to do the will of the Father? Well, John 6, 40 tells us exactly what that means.
01:07:44: For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise
01:07:54: Him up on the last day. That's exactly what we're talking about.
01:08:01: It is simple belief. For everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him, you'll be raised up.
01:08:11: If you are, like Carlos is saying, if you are expecting that you're going to have, if you are in that camp where you're thinking,
01:08:19: You know what? This is what I believe. I believe that I'm going to have to present my good works. You know,
01:08:25: I mean, if you believe that, I'm sure that you've already had thoughts about, Well, you know,
01:08:31: I did this, and I did that that was good, and I've gone to church, and I've, I mean, you've got to have something to say.
01:08:37: You've got to have something to present. That's exactly what these people are doing. Look at all of my wonderful works that I've done.
01:08:45: Jesus is contrasting those who are truly saved by the gospel, which is to believe in the
01:08:51: Lord Jesus Christ, from those who are believing in a false gospel.
01:08:58: And I want to point something out here. The people that He is condemning are not just total legalists.
01:09:08: They say on that last day, Lord, Lord. So in the
01:09:13: Bible, whenever somebody says a name twice, it usually communicates familiarity, that they know the person.
01:09:20: When God comes to Moses, He says, Moses, Moses. And so the fact that they say,
01:09:28: Lord, Lord, means that they were trying to be justified by faith and works.
01:09:35: This is the Galatian error. This is the Romanist error.
01:09:41: They believe that they are saved by faith and works. So it's not just simply that, oh, they didn't believe, or they didn't profess to believe, and they just at the last moment trusted in their works.
01:09:55: They're calling out to Christ as if He is somebody that they think that they know. Notice that it says that, it says, on that day, many will say to me,
01:10:07: Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy? In whose name? In your name. And cast out demons in your name.
01:10:14: And do many mighty works in your name. That is the quintessential
01:10:23: Piper. He's doing them in the name of Jesus, in the name of Christ.
01:10:30: He's professing to have faith. But unfortunately, his faith, his belief is not enough.
01:10:37: And he thinks that on the last day, you're going to have to present your works in Christ's courtroom, as we've said a hundred times on this podcast.
01:10:45: That is a false gospel. If that is you, repent. If that is you, repent.
01:10:52: That is a false gospel. To Pablo and Raul at Horizon Christian Fellowship, I don't know if they believe this, but they love
01:11:03: Piper. That's a false gospel. I pray that these guys, the elders at Horizon Christian Fellowship, who love
01:11:10: John Piper, I pray that they would see this. That's a false gospel. Jesus will say to you,
01:11:16: I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness. That is the worst, absolute worst position a person could ever, ever be in.
01:11:26: We're not just talking about secondary issues. This is the gospel. This is people's eternal salvation that we're talking about.
01:11:35: And every elder, every, you know, it's a shame that more pastors are not like Pastor Patrick Hines.
01:11:45: We absolutely commend him, because every pastor who's allowing their congregants to read
01:11:51: John Piper, to listen to John Piper, you know, who don't want to take a stand, shame on you.
01:11:57: Shame on you. This is pathetic. So that's all
01:12:04: I have to say about that. If you guys have anything else to add. Or Carlos, if you want to continue. I'm not done yet, baby.
01:12:15: There's so much to unpack here. There's another problem.
01:12:23: Again, the problems continue to unravel. There's another problem with Piper.
01:12:29: He also undermines all of the doctrines that we've been talking about even more.
01:12:36: By contradicting himself when he suggests that glorification is a consequence of getting into heaven, based partly on the good works of believers, rather than a consequence of Christ's return, based wholly on his perfect righteousness, imputed to the believers by faith alone.
01:12:55: This is Piper's words. Jesus transforms us so that we really begin to love like he does, so that we move toward perfection that we finally obtain in heaven.
01:13:08: But though our lived out perfection only comes in heaven, Jesus really does transform us now.
01:13:17: And this transformation is really necessary for final salvation. So get what he's saying. He's actually made peace with this trash.
01:13:25: He's thought this through, and he is saying, you're not going to be fully glorified until you get to heaven.
01:13:30: Forget the fact that you're going to be glorified when Christ comes back and brings you back from the dead with a glorified body.
01:13:39: To that, Piper basically scoffs at. He mocks it. He's like, what? That's not glorification.
01:13:47: That's not what every major tradition has taught, what
01:13:52: Christian tradition has taught, that the glorification happens when you are resurrected and glorified, when
01:13:58: Jesus comes back, when you're given a glorified body. That is the glorification being consummated.
01:14:05: Piper says no. He says no. He says you're not going to get it until after you pass the good works test on the final judgment, that you have enough works to actually get to heaven and be finally glorified then.
01:14:19: He's actually thought this stuff through. This guy is raging heresy all over it.
01:14:28: He's actually made peace with this. This is what's so astounding. Let me ask you a question because you sort of touched on something, another argument that's been coming up.
01:14:41: That is the issue of conditions. Piper, and I brought this out in my article, that Piper basically says that there are other conditions that we have to do, that we have to meet in order to get into heaven.
01:14:59: This is something that I focused on quite heavily in my letter to my former church.
01:15:07: A lot of people are trying to make the distinction between meritorious conditions and what they are claiming to be consequent conditions.
01:15:18: I want to tie this into what you said because you were saying that it's a consequence.
01:15:25: In his view, getting into heaven is a consequence of our good works. I basically said that good works are a consequence of saving faith.
01:15:39: But in Piper's view, good works are a condition that we must do in order to be saved.
01:15:46: There's a problem there. It seems to me that what you're pointing out now is that this argument that he's speaking of consequent conditions is wrong.
01:16:01: Because he's saying that the consequence is not the fact that you're going to have good works, but that the consequence of your good works is that then you will get into heaven.
01:16:15: Am I hearing you right? Yeah, so there's two things here.
01:16:25: Not only the people are wrong, they're just wrong about Piper. Not only is
01:16:32: Piper saying that you need to pass an inherent righteousness test in order to be finally justified to get to heaven, we're not just talking about getting to heaven.
01:16:42: We are not just talking about getting to heaven. We're talking about in order to be glorified.
01:16:48: In order to be glorified, you still have to pass this test of presenting your works at the last judgment in order to receive your fully glorified state.
01:16:59: That's what he's saying. In order to be fully glorified, he says, and this is what I read was from What Jesus Demands of the
01:17:06: World. He says this, Jesus transforms us so that we really begin to love like he does, so that we move toward perfection that we finally obtain in heaven.
01:17:16: So you can't obtain that perfection until you pass the final judgment test.
01:17:22: So it's worse than just getting to heaven. Now in order for you to be fully glorified, you still have to pass the same test.
01:17:29: So he's contradicting even yet another extremely basic Protestant doctrine that nobody really,
01:17:40: I mean this is a well -established doctrine. There's not a whole lot of controversy. Well, there might be, but this is a well -established doctrine.
01:17:48: Like glorification happens when Jesus comes back and brings you back from the dead to give you a glorified body.
01:17:55: That is the consummation of glorification. That is when you are glorified.
01:18:01: Piper is denying that yet again. He is denying that and saying, no, you don't get it until you get to heaven.
01:18:11: But in order to do that, you still have to pass an inherent righteousness test, forensic evaluation in God's courtroom to get there and to be fully glorified.
01:18:21: So I'm sorry, but people are not seeing the gravity of what
01:18:26: Piper is saying. He's not just talking about getting to heaven. Now he's saying in order for you to be glorified, your works are required to pass the final judgment test.
01:18:36: So the idea that he's vindicated because a lot of people are saying he's speaking of conditions as consequent conditions, not meritorious conditions, that is such a bad argument.
01:18:53: Those people need to look up the word irrelevant in the dictionary. That's irrelevant.
01:19:00: Okay, that's not what Piper is talking about. So are we done?
01:19:05: No, we're not even done yet. I still got, there's so much left here, and we're going to have to skip some stuff just for the sake of time.
01:19:15: So this was one of my favorite parts. And I really, so let's get into this now.
01:19:26: Let me find the section first. Okay, so what have we established?
01:19:34: Everyone will know who belongs to God at final judgment by the power of the resurrection, not by the works of believers, because Christ alone accomplishes the salvation and glorification of his people.
01:19:50: For it must necessarily follow that either all that is required for our salvation is not in Christ, or if all is in him, then he who has
01:20:02: Christ by faith has his salvation entirely. And if that sounds familiar, that's a quote from the
01:20:09: Heidelberg, I think the Belgic Confession, or the Heidelberg, yeah, the
01:20:15: Belgic Confession, I think it's the Belgic Confession. So that's mainline Reformed theology.
01:20:23: What we're talking about is mainline Reformed theology. What Piper's talking about is a big pile of trash that destroys the most basic cardinal
01:20:32: Christian doctrines of the Bible. Okay, so, and if that's not clear enough, so let's keep going here.
01:20:44: The Scriptures tie the believer's resurrection with Christ himself, who is the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, though he may die, he shall live, and whoever who lives and believes in me shall never die.
01:20:57: And so the resurrection, see, but we've already said all this stuff, right?
01:21:03: Why is it, is this not enough? I mean, is Christ not enough? You know, because Christ's own resurrection power and perfect righteousness imputed to believers by faith alone, as well as the resurrection, vindication, acquittal, reward, and glorification of believers is still not enough for Piper.
01:21:24: It's astonishing. Instead, he nullifies all of them by insisting on the necessary public legal evaluation of believers' works at the final judgment for attaining heaven.
01:21:34: I'm going to quote him again. These works of faith and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the
01:21:41: Spirit that come by faith, are necessary for a final salvation. No holiness, no heaven.
01:21:47: So we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone in the same way we are justified by faith alone. That is flat -out heresy, folks.
01:21:56: And I hope, man, this, go ahead. I was going to read something that's almost identical to that.
01:22:03: And this is from the Roman Catholic Catechism. This is from the section on salvation.
01:22:09: I don't know the exact section. You can put it in the notes later. But it says, All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity.
01:22:19: All are called to holiness, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. In order to reach this perfection, the faithful should use the strength dealt out by Christ's gift, so that, doing the will of the
01:22:29: Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and the service of their neighbor. Thus, the holiness of the people of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the
01:22:37: Church throughout the lives of many saints. Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ.
01:22:44: And it goes on to say, what does he say? God calls us to this intimate union with Him.
01:22:51: And this is what reminded me, in light of what you're saying, of this catechism.
01:22:57: It says, The way of perfection passes by way of the cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.
01:23:03: Spiritual progress entails the excesis and mortification that gradually leads to living in the peace and joy of the
01:23:09: Beatitudes. He who climbs never stops going from the beginning to the beginning through beginnings that have no end, and he never stops discerning what he already knows.
01:23:17: And so this is essentially the same thing that we're talking about here. The idea that you enter in by faith, and you're progressing through, specifically through mortification and an ascetic lifestyle.
01:23:32: You know what I mean? It's the same sort of idea where you're progressing, and you achieve. When it talks about achieving beatitude and joy, it's talking about heaven.
01:23:43: It's talking about being in heaven with God. Didn't it say no holiness? Mm -hmm.
01:23:50: In the same way that Piper says, no holiness, no heaven, no holiness. Yeah, yeah.
01:23:56: You know. Yeah, and we're going to get to that verse. Well, yeah, it's essentially the same thing.
01:24:03: It's one thing to quote Scripture when Scripture says, without holiness no one will see the Lord. It's another thing to give an explanation of that that is nearly identical, if not identical, to what the
01:24:12: Roman Catholic Church, from which our predecessors in the Reformed faith, if we are Reformed, from which they defected rightfully so.
01:24:20: It's another thing to give that sort of explanation to the passage because you show by that that you're not, you don't have an
01:24:26: Orthodox doctrine. Houston, we have a problem. So, let's tie this all together because this is, man, this is one of my favorite parts here.
01:24:40: So, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will receive glorified bodies immediately upon Christ's return, prior to the final judgment, as Piper himself notes.
01:24:50: In the verses that he quotes. In the sermon that I alluded to, that I quoted earlier from him.
01:24:56: Note what these passages teach about that day. When believers are, quote, changed in the twinkling of an eye, that's 1
01:25:02: Corinthians 15, 51 through 52, and receive their glorified bodies, death will be swallowed up in victory, verse 54.
01:25:10: And thus we shall always be with the Lord. That's 1 Thessalonians 4, 17.
01:25:17: What does that mean? What this means is that, my screen just went blank, shoot.
01:25:23: Okay, here we go. What this means is that believers are going to walk into Christ's courtroom at the final judgment in their glorified state already, knowing that they will be neither judged nor condemned and with full assurance of their heavenly destination.
01:25:43: For Christ affirmed, He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
01:25:53: Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the
01:26:00: Son of God and those who hear will live. So, this is one of my favorite truths that I kind of discovered when
01:26:13: I was going through this controversy. When I realized this, it just gave me an immense amount of joy because you see the beauty of Christ and the finished work of Christ that He is so gracious and amazing that He is going to give you your full glorified state before you even step foot at the final judgment and even that's misleading because we're not facing a final judgment.
01:26:43: There is no final judgment. You're receiving a fully glorified body. What more assurance do you possibly need?
01:26:49: That's exactly where you're going. You put on the heavenly body. You're going to heaven and this is such an amazing confirmation of our assurance because we all struggle with assurance.
01:27:02: It's like, and I struggled with this myself too. Before this controversy, I would hear people like Ray Comfort and I know they generally mean well and people like John MacArthur and John Piper who interpret passages like Matthew 7 and say, you better watch out because on that final judgment you might be getting kicked out and get a rude awakening.
01:27:24: It's like, well, I mean, how do I know? How am I going to know? How am
01:27:29: I going to know that I'm going to heaven? Christ is our everything.
01:27:35: He's going to provide the glorification of our bodies so that even before we set foot on the final judgment, we're already going to be glorified.
01:27:48: So, this is what's remarkable. I mean, this amazing truth.
01:27:55: It's an amazing truth. People really need to soak this in because this is a grossly misunderstood doctrine.
01:28:01: People are not tying together the Bible holistically and systematically and realizing what it really means, especially in light of all of these final justification doctrines that are destroying the resurrection.
01:28:14: And this is why it's so important to affirm this. When we die, I mean, when
01:28:20: Christ comes back, we're all going to know. When He brings us back from the dead, everybody's going to see it.
01:28:29: It's not going to be some hidden obscure thing. It's going to be obvious, more than obvious, where we're going.
01:28:36: And so, I don't know. This blew my mind.
01:28:42: This just blew my mind. I really hope people get this. This is such an important truth to understand that your works have nothing to do with you getting into heaven.
01:28:56: Piper is a raging heretic. That is a false teaching of false teachings.
01:29:03: Your works have nothing to do with you getting into heaven. And so, when people ask us, you know, inevitably they will, when people ask us, are you saying that Piper's not a
01:29:15: Christian? Duh. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely, that's what we're saying. And that's why we are warning against him.
01:29:25: And I would actually say that Piper is one of the most dangerous heretics in our lifetime.
01:29:34: So, I'll let you continue there, Carlos. Yeah. So, this leaves us to a very alarming state for Piper's doctrine.
01:29:47: Piper basically destroys this amazing and glorious assurance that Christ has given us through the resurrection and glorification of our body.
01:29:56: Once again, Piper contradicts Christ by insisting that believers will still be judged in the end.
01:30:02: This is Piper, once again, in his own words. When we stand before Christ as judge, we will be judged according to our deeds in this life.
01:30:12: The judgment of believers will not only be the public declaration of the measure of our reward in the kingdom of God according to our deeds, but will also be the public declaration of our salvation, our entering the kingdom according to our deeds.
01:30:29: So, that runs in the face straight against everything that we've been talking about up to this point.
01:30:40: And it's contrary not only to the Bible, but historic Protestantism, mainstream reform guys, okay?
01:30:48: And we're going to prove that. Once again, you can go back to section 4 for those who haven't.
01:30:54: You can go back and listen to fatal flaw number 4 where I quoted a bunch of people,
01:31:00: Protestants, showing how they contradict Piper. But we're going to give a couple more right now and close with that. So, historic
01:31:09: Protestantism affirms that the final judgment for believers will not be a judgment.
01:31:16: We've been emphatic about this. Believers are not going to be judged at the final judgment.
01:31:23: They are instead going to receive a vindication and acquittal along with a distribution of rewards according to good works done in this life.
01:31:37: You want some... And we'll show people. So, how about Francis Turretin?
01:31:43: You know, this guy, he gets quoted up from the other side a lot. The other side, the people who defend Piper, they tend to quote him a lot to defend
01:31:50: Piper's view. We'll see just how... Let's see what they say after this quote.
01:31:55: So, here's Turretin. Christ will be the judge in that very visible nature in which he was condemned for us.
01:32:03: This he will do especially both for the greater consolation of the pious who will look upon him as their defender and advocate instead of their judge.
01:32:17: Blatant contradiction to Piper, okay? And for the greater terror and confusion of the wicked, the process of the judgment is such that mention may indeed be made of good works but not their evil works.
01:32:32: The pious will not hear the publication of their sins but the reward of their love and beneficence.
01:32:41: That's Francis Turretin. Classic Italian scholastic reformer, brilliant guy, blatantly contradicts
01:32:51: Piper's teaching that we will face Christ as judge. If there's anything that's clear about what
01:32:56: Piper teaches is that you're going to face him as judge. You're going to step in his courtroom and give an account to him as a judge.
01:33:03: Flies in the face of not just the Bible, now you have Turretin right here flying completely against what
01:33:09: Piper is saying. Blatant contradiction. And that's not all. That's not all.
01:33:16: Instead of misappropriating the reformed tradition to defend his heterodoxy, Piper ought to weigh what expositors like John Calvin say about believers at the final judgment.
01:33:27: How about Calvin? We all know who he is, right? So, here's what Calvin said.
01:33:33: For it is impossible to think of the dread majesty of God without being filled with alarm, and hence the sense of our own unworthiness must keep us far away, until Christ interpose and convert a throne of dreadful glory into a throne of grace.
01:33:50: As the apostle teaches that thus we can come boldly unto the throne of grace.
01:33:56: Not a throne of judgment, like Piper says, but a throne of grace, like the Bible says, like Paul says, and like Calvin affirms.
01:34:06: That we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in the time of need. That's Hebrews 4 .16.
01:34:13: Calvin continues, Christ given to us by the kindness of God is apprehended and possessed by faith, by means of which we obtain, in particular, a two -fold benefit.
01:34:26: First, being reconciled by the righteousness of Christ, God becomes, instead of a judge, an indulgent father.
01:34:37: Can you imagine that? And secondly, being sanctified by a spirit, we aspire to integrity and purity of life.
01:34:45: That's from the institutes, which I'm sure Piper has read, right? The institutes of the
01:34:52: Christian religion. That itself is a blatant, those two quotes are a blatant contradiction.
01:35:01: This is showing that Piper is utterly at odds with Reformed, Orthodox, Protestant theology.
01:35:09: Yeah, which again, when Piper says, you know, that my answer is that of the entire mainstream of Reformed tradition, he's completely wrong.
01:35:23: He's self -deceived. Don't be deceived with him. Seriously?
01:35:28: Like, that couldn't be any more of a contradiction. And here's the thing.
01:35:36: So, this is why Piper undermines not just justification, not just the gospel, our status of adoption, sonship, okay?
01:35:53: When Christ justifies us, He sanctifies us positionally, and He adopts us.
01:35:59: We become, the Father adopts us into the family, the household of God, the household of faith, and we become sons, and no longer are reckoned sinners.
01:36:10: So, when there is no facing God as a judge,
01:36:15: He's our Father now. And that's what Calvinists teach. That's what Calvin is affirming.
01:36:21: That's what Turretin is affirming. That's what the Bible clearly teaches. When the throne of grace, we no longer face a throne of judgment, it's a throne of grace.
01:36:30: This is basic Bible teaching, basic Protestant teaching, that Piper is completely destroying.
01:36:37: And so, I really hope, I think we gave people enough to chew on for one day, but maybe even for a lifetime.
01:36:45: This stuff is so amazing. When you fully, when you start to grasp this, and how amazing these truths really are, and how utterly contrary
01:36:55: Piper is to this, I hope people see, I hope people really start to see this now, even
01:37:01: His defenders, because you have nothing to say to this, if you agree with Piper.
01:37:06: You have nothing to say to this. I would, I dare you to, I dare you to. You know, it's interesting, man, at this point, it's almost like, at this point, you have to wonder, what is it going to take to, for some people,
01:37:25: I mean, if you're a Piper fan, or you're trying to weigh this stuff out, and you're just, you know, at this point, you're just refusing to even hear what we're pointing out,
01:37:40: I don't know what else to say. I mean, Yeah. We've beaten, we've beaten this already dead horse for so long, that there's no chance in hell that it's coming back to life.
01:37:53: Especially with Piper's view of the resurrection. So, I'll close with that.
01:37:59: We'll have to pick up on the next episode, and continue on with this flaw. I hope people are enjoying this stuff.
01:38:04: I'm really enjoying this. This, to me, was an incredible insight that I did not fully grasp until I went through this, and I really hope people are blessed by this, because it is an amazing truth to really, truly rejoice in.
01:38:21: That Christ has fully satisfied everything on our account. It is just an amazing Savior that we have, and we need to be extremely careful, and to reject the false teaching and nonsense of false teachers like Piper, who are undermining everything that Christ has accomplished for us already.
01:38:40: Yup. Amen. Well, I think you said it all, man.
01:38:45: We'll go ahead and close out with this. Hiram had to sip away. He said his kid had gotten sick, so Hiram, thank you for joining us.
01:38:56: Sorry you had to sip away. Pray that your kid is feeling better soon. With that, if you guys have any questions, comments, or concerns, objections, hate mail, whatever, you can email us at thorncrownministries .com
01:39:12: Wait, no. gmail .com thorncrownministries at gmail .com
01:39:20: or do you want to give them the phone number? We've had a few people call, and some people have reached out to us that way.
01:39:29: It's always an option. You can call us. Do you have the phone number, Carlos? Yeah. The number is, you can leave us a voicemail at 915 -302 -0915
01:39:42: Yeah. Like you said, we've had some people email us. We've had some people call.
01:39:51: Usually, what we do is we'll just respond privately, unless we think that your whatever you say is vital to the podcast.
01:40:03: We really appreciate our listeners. We really appreciate the input that we get. We haven't been putting out episodes as regularly, and I'm thinking maybe this is just the season of life that we're in, but we thank our listeners for hanging on to the podcast.